Sex Debt

While the manosphere and the femosphere endlessly debate the personal merits or collective atrocities of ‘casual sex’, the so called hook-up culture (newsflash, people were hooking-up long before the last decade), and/or the sex-positive feminist definition of it, I’m starting to think that neither are really seeing the overall context within which both sides have agreed to debate – the context of the feminine primary, feminine imperative social norm.

The declared feminists, their uncommitted proxies and their sympathizers can all understandably be acquitted of this blame since they thrive in discussions that ignore the dominant feminine social context they help to create. You can hardly fault pigs in shit for their love of discussing the finer points of shit with non-pigs in the same shit. However, an integral part of a Man’s red pill maturation should include a broader understanding of the feminine primary social normative we live in today. And with that understanding it should also follow that, given time and red pill enlightened observation, a Man will begin to see the code in the Matrix and know that, win or lose, such arguments only serve the feminine imperative.

Soaking In the Matrix

I wish I could credit the quote, but I once read that “Feminism is the mistaken idea that a society can create gender equalism by focusing exclusively on the benefit of only one sex.”

As Mark Minter’s now sphere-famous comment illustrates, any debate Men have, without considering the social context of the feminine imperative, ultimately, only serves to reinforce the ends of that imperative. For example, if we engage in discussions about how best to personally or socially conduct our sexual lives (exploits or noble pursuits) and all we consider of this proposition is how best to ensure a feminine-optimal reality, it doesn’t account for a true male-primary perspective. For over 60 years, men have been so conditioned to believe that there is no context other than that which benefits the feminine that they internalize the correctness of the feminine imperative as their own.

This is the scope of the feminine Matrix; you’re literally born into it, and as Mark Minter discovered, usually only experience and/or trauma can jar a man into an awareness of this social condition. So as you can see, debating whether casual sex or ‘meaningful sex’ is more significant in the Matrix is akin to discussing which style of clothing best accentuated a particular woman. The feminine end is the same and men are never a consideration under such auspices.

Letting Go

Letting go of his prior contexts is often the most difficult thing for newly Game-aware Men to release. Letting go of the Fallacy of the ONE, letting go of an expectation of a mutually idealized love with women, letting go of prior concepts of how women are in most respects, are all very difficult transitions for men whose best understandings about women and how society operates have been conditioned for him from a feminine-primary origin.

A good example of becoming aware of this is illustrated in how men’s attitude towards sex has shifted from pleasing himself towards pleasing a woman. There is a silly, but ironic internet meme that states “Nice Guy’s finish last, because their women finish first.” implying of course that Nice Guy’s are more concerned with their women’s sexual pleasures than their own, and it’s just this ‘niceness’ that makes them better and preferred lovers. It’s only after she gets off that he’s allowed to indulge himself in a simple orgasm. Nothing epitomizes the feminine primary social normative than this base consideration. This is the root of feminisms ‘sex-positive’ referendum – she cums first.

Everyone’s Special

It hardly seems fathomable that there could’ve been a time when a woman’s sexual experience wasn’t considered the end-goal of the sex act. The carefully feminine designed Beta-Game idea being (as always) that the more a man identifies with the feminine the more attractive and acceptable he will be to a potential mate. Be sensitive to her needs, find out what she likes, do what she asks, cater yourself to her sexual pleasures and you’ll be the unique man who really understands women and therefore will be a high value man to all women.

“Do what she says and you’ll be a high value man”, became the common sense Beta wisdom. Essentially this was the bedroom doctrine of a larger social whole, only ‘do what she says’ wasn’t enough. Legions of men were all too eager to please their women first, so much so that the woman-pleasers became the norm – When everyone’s special, no one is. I should pause for a moment here, because not only does this axiom destroy the heart of most Beta chump’s concept of how their own Game should operate, but it also illustrates a larger point in that the ‘special’ guys of today are the ones who stand out by not ‘doing what she says’ and placing themselves, and the male imperative above her wants. In a world full of women-pleasers, women will sing “where have all the cowboys gone?”

However, as I stated, it wasn’t enough. As every man became special, the request of “please me” became the expectation of “please me”. The sensitivity to her needs transitioned from making him unique amongst men, to being his liability and a prerequisite of her fidelity to him – get her off or else she’ll find a ‘normal guy’ who can! The courtesy became the expectation which became the demand. This progression can be applied to every social dynamic within the feminine imperative’s purview.

Full Stop

There’s an interesting conflict that arises for men when presented with thinking about sex from a more selfish perspective. Most men begin their sexual maturation with this ‘her first’ mentality preprogrammed for them. I was fortunate enough to have a very sexually experimentative girlfriend (see; slut) when I first got laid at age 17. I learned a lot about women’s pleasure by doing rather than explaining, and while that relationship had its own liabilities, this situation set me up for a very selfish approach to sex that would follow with the consecutive women I banged. I honestly didn’t think about whether a girl got off with me or not, and in fact I discovered it was really immaterial for the women who kept coming back to me.

I’d have guys (serving the feminine imperative) tell me “you gotta fuck her right or you’ll lose her” in my single-man-sex-life, but then, I often didn’t care whether I lost them thanks to my nascent plate spinning of that time. In fact, the only time it ever was a concern was when I became invested enough in one woman to actually be concerned with her pleasure, and even then it was because her pleasure enhanced the sex act for me, not due to some threat of infidelity if she didn’t get off. The girl’s genuine desire for me was present whether or not she got off – sometimes I’d make a point of making that happen, but most times it was simply a byproduct of her own desire. In either respect I didn’t view it as my responsibility, and I found that women still enjoyed coming back for sex with some regularity.

One of the few conflicts I’ve observed with Roissy/Heartiste is in this approach to ‘owing a woman an orgasm’ for her continued fidelity. The 9th commandment of poon states:

XIV. Fuck her good

Fuck her like it’s your last fuck. And hers. Fuck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids. Drain her of everything, then drain her some more. Kiss her all over, make love to her all night, and hold her close in the morning. Own her body, own her gratitude, own her love. If you don’t know how, learn to give her squirting orgasms.

On the surface of it, Roissy is agreeing with the feminine imperative’s notion of the sex debt – “own her gratitude, own her love,..learn to give her squirting orgasms.” I wouldn’t insult Roissy by inferring for him what I think he means here, but there’s more to it than this. Love, gratitude, a strong emotional bond, are all byproducts of ‘fucking her good’, but it’s the point of origin of why you want to ‘fuck her good’ that is at issue.

Stop Worrying About Giving Women Orgasms

I think the operative word here is worrying. I wish I had the link available (I did search), but Roissy once had an excellent post and third party study outlining the proclivity of women to fake orgasms with high value, Alpha men, more so than lower value Beta Nice Guys. Naturally the “nice guys finish last, because their women finish first” chumps fired off their comments assuming this was some kind of validation of their Beta Game. Because they still subscribe to the ‘her first’ feminine primary doctrine as being the normative, their default presumption is that women would fake orgasms with Alpha Men because they were sexually unsatisfied with them. However, as the study indicated, the harsher truth was that women’s tendency to fake orgasm with high value men was the result of a desire to secure that man for commitment and breeding prospects – not as some feminine courtesy for a bad lover.

Naturally this is the socialized narrative women follow themselves – a bad lover gets a fake orgasm, nyah, nyah, try better next time – but when you look under the hood, why would a woman be bothered to fake an orgasm with a bad lover? You might argue that it’s to end the act, and you’d be right, but a faked orgasm is really an indictment of the Beta mindset, because he’s not worth the courtesy of faking one.

In the end hypergamy doesn’t even care if the woman is sexually satisfied or not – that’s up to her – all that matters is optimizing the best mating that her attractiveness can afford.

*Final Note: Since I know the comments will explode about the importance of a woman’s orgasm from a biological perspective, I’m not saying that a woman getting off isn’t important. I’m fully aware that a woman’s orgasm prompts her cervix to dip and ‘scoop up’ a man’s sperm to facilitate fertility. I’m also aware of the oxytocin and the chemical cocktail release post-orgasm. The point of this post is to outline the social aspect and primacy the feminine imperative has acculturated into men regarding the female orgasm.

50 comments

  1. Stop worrying about pleasing women in general. They don’t even have a definitive clue what pleases them…or what pleases them changes with their mood.

    Outcome independence was one of the best things I ever learned.

  2. A general shift towards selfishness is the fundamental alpha shift. However as Rollo mentioned, there can be greater pleasure when the girl is having greater pleasure. Through our mirror neurons we can get off on her getting off.

    I think it’s a good habit to be able to have fine sexual control, and to be consistently able to bring the girl to heights. It’s good habit for reasons of personal hedonism, as well as for reasons of controlling the woman outside of the bedroom.

    I don’t subscribe to the notion that it’s fine for the guy to come first most of the time and leave it at that because he’s the alpha. Such sexuality strikes me as childish. Not because it’s too selfish, but because it’s under-developed. It’s at the sexual level of a child. A developed sexuality is powerful and controlled, and is a mutual dance of jazz. Not a masturbatory experience in an anonymous hole.

  3. Strictly biologically speaking coming soon for a man is the logical thing to do and why we come easily with new hot women.

    However if you are slow to get off you are displaying pre-selection. That you get many new women all the time and that it doesn’t excite you.

    This has filtered through into the matrix so that everyone thinks a man is a loser if he comes quickly.

  4. lol. Just lol. You guys make my job so much easier with articles like this, so thankyou lol

    [I know what you’re thinking, and I agree, but I’m delving into the social aspect of this, not the PUA applications.]

  5. Well, it’s finally happened. Hallelujah.

    I’m hooking up with a hard 10.

    Tall, flawless blonde, just moved to my city after living in NY and Miami. Basically fell in my lap since her plain friend is hooking up with my friend. It’s funny, the line that hooked her was when her and her friend came up to dance with me as we were leaving a party, and I jokingly said, ‘i only dance with 10’s.’ They both still remember that.

    I positioned myself early as a jerk, and it just so happens she broke up with her last bf because she ‘hated the thought of having sex with him.’ Hah. Thank you M-sphere, I know what that means. Nice guy.

    Took her on a date and was mostly friendly & cool, but when I took her back to my place it surprised me just how freaky she wanted it. The first time we hooked up, she said, ‘give me a preview.’ This ended with my hand on her neck, her pulling it up to get me to choke her harder, then throwing her against the mirror and man-handling her tits. Not bad for foreplay. I did recognize that even though I was being very rough, it was still fulfilling her ‘request’ for me to ‘man up’ and be rough. Which is wrong, of course, it has to be rough because I want it to be rough, otherwise it’s me in her frame. Need to figure that one out.

    All signs say she likes me. Also need to decide if I should take my text game to raunchy & dangerous, cool & mature, or sparse and aloof.

    Anyway, thank you PUA universe. This was always something I looked forward to and now it’s here. Cheers

  6. It starts early.

    Circumcision over time desensitizes receptors so it longer for a man to finish. Ladies like it so we do it.

  7. All I say is this

    Women who I have made “orgasm” many a time stuck around, women who I haven’ tend to leave very swiftly

    why is that?

    semi-srs question

  8. Depends on if that’s a result of your performance or if it’s due to her own inability to get off.

    I agree with what you’re laying down here, but my focus isn’t arguing the merits of getting a woman off, but rather the self-concern guys have about doing so.

    I know how to get a woman off, but I’m not some special unique sex god, because a lot of other men know how to do the same. That’s the point I’m getting at.

    In my single days, I didn’t even concern myself with making the effort, and the girls I was with still got off and still came back for seconds, because the overall experience was something they were into, they got off on and wanted to repeat.

  9. Thank you for this post. I agree totally. I will add that the less I’ve cared about getting a woman off, the better the sex was – for me anyway. I won’t say “the more frequently she got off” because a) I don’t really know and b) again I don’t care. I DO know that it resulted in them coming back for more. When I was younger I thought “female orgasm = Sam Spade Sex God.” The result: Supplication and way too much effort. I.e. the expensive flowers and chocolates of the bedroom. As I became more dominant in the bedroom, I noticed that my partners enjoyed being more submissive, and for me anyway the sex was more primal and enjoyable. I can only surmise the same for the partner.

    It sounds like the height of selfishness to say “I don’t care if the woman has an orgasm” and maybe it is. So what? Like you said, worry less about it. By the way I think what Roissy meant was to fuck her like a wild caveman so she never forgets you, but again, YOU should be the one going crazy.

  10. ^^man, sometimes Rollo I’m lazy, don’t get me wrong I love sex like the next man, but these girls now a days their on some other stuff. All the women I meet lately are on some “50 shades of grey shit”. Tie them up, massagers/toys/whip cream/dirty outfits/domination/sex texting exerme/slave shit (Im her master she is my slave etc). So when you bang a woman like that,each time she expects something grand. It’s fun but fucccccccccccck I don’t have the time after a long day I just wanna hit it real quick and go to sleep

    with these women regular sex is boring, so you gotta up the ante everytime, and when you don’t well she will find someone who will

  11. PS: This is yet another dynamic bastardized by Hollywood. How many scenes have we watched where the guy is getting off and the woman is bored, rolling her eyes, and disappointed? Usually it’s to illustrate that she’s with the wrong guy or not into him. The one time I can remember where I saw it flipped was in Forgetting Sarah Marshall.

  12. DUDE you fuckin just PWNED IT write there, my es-girlfriend was faking her orgasim but she must of wanted to breed with me pretty bad.

  13. That XIVth rule is the only one I have any trouble with. Reading it again, I was surprised to see that it does not suggest that it’s a way to keep your hot chick, as I remembered.

    What does “fuck her good” mean ? Fuck her good for her pleasure, or for yours ? Roissy’s text speaks only of the pleasure of the woman, so I can only presume that he means fuck her the way she likes it. I personally don’t believe a man can be fully satisfied if he is too preoccupied with a woman’s pleasure. And hey, why shouldn’t your woman “fuck you good” from time to time as well ?

    One thing should be clear : fuck her good by all means, if you enjoy it, but don’t imagine that this will stop her one second from leaving you for a more seductive alpha, however bad he is in bed, or however minute or limp his business is. Hamsters are made for rationalising that sort of choice.

  14. Fucking women.

    I can’t even kiss women on the lips anymore. I don’t have to. I know where there mouth has been and will go.

    Orgasm? You want to cum? Use a vibrator or let’s fuck. Simple as that.

  15. Hmm. I think Roissy found a study that orgasm is a woman’s subconcious letting her know the guy is an acceptable mate. She might hook up with a guy because of logic, or because of emotion, but that is the final test.

  16. Roissy isn’t writing about only pleasing the woman.

    What he’s getting at is to let your emotions run and jump into the deep end of the pool, so to speak.

    We all know that woman hate a bore. Boring men are sedate and cold. Fun men are fiery and passionate.

    This goes along with rule IX. Connect with her emotions. Both rules don’t mean you need to be emotional like a woman or to only please a woman during sex. These rules help you to remember to have a depth of feeling and experience that a woman will find interesting.

    Women are reflective of your emotional state. When you have fun, she has fun.

  17. The main point should be not to focus on anything. Getting all in your head when you bang a girl makes it boring. You have to turn off your brain and just go into wild ape mode.

  18. My philosophy has always been that each individual is responsible for their own orgasms. Since a lot of it has to do with the state of mind, it would be irrational to blame someone for not getting you off. If one does not think the other is “doing it right” then it’s also their responsibility to communicate what they want and need sexually.

  19. “Feminism is the mistaken idea that a society can create gender equalism by focusing exclusively on the benefit of only one sex.”

    The quote ( or something close to it ) is from The Amazing Athiest . Or at least, he takes credit for it .

    He’s too whiny and beta to be an icon, but I agree with most of what he says here. Exception being that I think of women as equals.

    My real problem with feminism is that it has given women all the choices,rights, privlledges and power but it asks for none of the responsibilty that goes with those things.

    That’s freedom baby. Imagine being able to do whatever you want whenever you want and no one holds you accountable.

    Even her orgasm is our responsibilty.

    She believes she has the right to demand it but takes no responsibility for attaining it. That’s feminism in a nutshell.

  20. That’s the issue I personally have with having found & understood certain if not all aspects of what game [theories] I’ve read; it’s made me hyper-aware & seemingly whiny to myself (like Artaud or Nietzsche accordingly), however it awakens – literally – every body in my presence and pulls them into my frame of view. But that power play, it goes back. Like a vibration, in using oneself as a tool, one becomes one who is used by others. Like a conduit. Game teaches men how to be a conduit for reaching a woman’s state of mind. That’s as dangerous as feminism’s ploy & the opposite strain of thought in what Patriarchal ideologies they claim to be against.

    So it’s a double-edged sword. Play with fire or cool the waters. Manage both, you’ll grow up and be a man. Idyll is the idealistic. Never will the Madonna be a Virgin, as she bears a Christ – a bastard child born of an Angel or G-d’s seed – raised by the beta-fish Male a Christ finds & saves, etc…

    And trust me, word spreads like wildfire, though nobody “talks”. It’s actually making me less successful as a human being, being so aware of social dynamics, as I become oddly dictatorial – & effectively, I should add. Before I just figured I liked a girl and should go for her how she wanted me to; now I know I can just walk up to one & do what I want if she wants it in that moment too – remaining respectful, however maintaining dominance, if that’s sensical. Trial & error, of course. And, instead of them just happening upon me & feeling like a “catch”, now I just go out, find one I like, and go after her, get her, etc…expecting she’s fucking other people and making sure she knows her role in my life subserviently & feminine; don’t even need to have a name any more. I haven’t been rejected yet. But I’ve had the shit kicked out of me by angry orbiters/boyfriends which resultantly landed me more attention & pussy. It makes me wonder if any girl has ever truly been loyal to me. Or if I’ll ever find one that can AND will be.

    Just babbling. These words are simply a conduit for my feelings being processed. Thanks for the article and every body who comments places like this.

  21. For women, they want hot sweaty awesome sex because sex on tap is a given.

    For men, they are preoccupied with actually finding someone decent looking to have sex with.

    So when the respective genders talk in their own gender circles about sex it comes down to what each gender values most.

    For men it revolves around who is getting laid with decent women. They could give a shit about the mind blowing simultaneous orgasms and tantric frog position.

    For women it’s about whose having mind blowing fucking because everyone pretty much assumes that there is sex going on. They want to know the details about the positions and how long and all that jazz.

    I have never really heard from any of my male friends about the specific details of their fucking. Only that they fucked. I’m sure it happens in some groups though but I don’t think it’s the norm.

  22. I am a sex god.

    No, really, I am. Somewhere along the way I picked up the ability to make women feel REALLY GOOD in bed. So much so that I’ve had “referral business”.

    But guess what?

    It don’t mean shit.

    A man’s orgasm (because it accompanies ejaculation) is a biological necessity. A woman’s orgasm is for the most part a biological luxury. Hypergamy and a woman’s biological imperative don’t care whether or not she got her rocks off. It isn’t necessary to conceive and it certainly isn’t necessary to provide for the welfare of the child after it is born.

    So what does this mean?

    It means that women will ooh and aah and tell all their friends how spectacular you are in the sack, but it really doesn’t do anything to increase your mating market value and thus has little tangible value unless you can parlay it into sex with other chicks in her social group.

    Chicks are more concerned about their ability to get YOU off than they are about themselves. This means that if you want to keep a chick around you are much better off holding back your own nut once every few times than you are trying to make sure she is always “satisfied”.

  23. Women only get my orgasm as a treat or reward.
    Even if there is sex 3 times a day, every day, only cumming once a week keeps me hungry and focused.

  24. I have a theory about the sometimes elusive G spot.

    When a woman is sufficiently aroused her vag area will become so engorged with blood that the tissue of the g spot area becomes more distinct and “active”

    Arousal (what is going on in her head) is the complicated part, the rest is just physiology and friction.

  25. Not that Rollo needs my support in any way, but I can say, as a woman, I love feeling like my boyfriend is getting from me what he wants. I found that, as much as I expected the candlelit romance and slow seduction to be more successful orgasm-wise, it’s when he’s just jack hammering me because he’s hungry for it that I get off it the most. Then, when he does choose to specifically try to give me orgasms (and succeed :P) it’s “about me”, but it’s about HIS desire – HE wants to get me off because HE thinks it’s hot and it will excite him, not because he has to earn a pussy pass.

    And I would imagine that is what Roissy’s commandment is about, and I think that’s certainly what Rollo’s talking about. You can still want to give her a “good time” – but it’s about doing it on your terms, because you want it, for yourself and sometimes for her – but not because you have to do it to earn something from her.

  26. Roosh addressed this. He said stop worrying about about both, giving her orgams and you having one.

    http://www.rooshv.com/it-doesnt-matter-if-she-orgasms-or-not

    “For guys all that matters is the end, but for girls it’s the process. As long as she gets into it and can say, “I’m getting fucked good and this feels great,” then you’ve done your job. Sure if you make her orgasm on demand you’ll definitely hear from her again, but it’s not necessary and just too complicated to worry about. Keep in mind some girls barely know how to make themselves orgasm! ”

    Naomi Wolf is writing a book called “Vagina” and she states that 30% of women don’t know how.

    And in a previous post Roosh said something along the lines of it working well if you didn’t have an orgasm because it instilled dread in her, “What’s wrong with me that he couldn’t have an orgasm”.

    But keep in mind he is speaking in the typical ONS setting. And also imagine how many women he probably had to nail before he could let go of the inborn fear of her not having orgasm with you. It speaks volumes about the value of “not being afraid to lose her”. In my experience the vast majority of women are inept sexually. They even bring less to the bedroom then they bring to the general relationship.

    But the Roosh attitude works for me. You should get it through your head that if she can’t have an orgasm with you, then she is one that is fucked up and not you. But there has been this whole thing since the Hite Report that has placed the totality of the responsibility on you. She shifted the locus of the female orgasm from the vagina to the clitoris with the hidden subtext that it was the man’s fault if the woman couldn’t orgasm.

    There is a diagnosis in Erectile Dysfunction called Spectator’s Syndrome that you can get so preoccupied with the woman’s orgasm that you can lose erection and this fear can be a self-perpetuating situation. You fear you will lose erection therefore you do.

    But men are too afraid to say “Jeez lady, your pussy sucks and so does your attitude and technique.” Which they generally do by my observations. They worry if they are proficient then you think them a slut. I have read 10 books on sexual technique in my life and 90% of the sexual act between me and women has been me ministering to them and them lying their ass their on the bed. I have received in return some of the most lame blow jobs I can imagine to the point I lost erection many times. I used to worry about it. Now I push them off of my dick like “God you suck at sucking”. And I think they even do on purpose. “Happiness is doing a bad job so badly that no one ever asks you to do it again”.

    There is a joke that displays the better attitude to have:

    Upon discovering that the man in her bed had a two inch penis, the woman asks,

    “Who do you intend to satisfy with that little thing?”

    He replied “Me”.

  27. Biologically the female orgasm exists to entice the male orgasm, and to be optimally receptive to his seed. The female orgasm is there to make a man orgasm. If you’re gonna cum, just do it.

  28. I read on the Rooshv forum today someone claim “I have a small dick and I’m lousy at fucking, but the women keep coming back, so it doesn’t matter”.

    There is no logical connection between the fact that the girls keep coming back and that “it doesn’t matter”.

    Attractive traits are additive. Just because one particular trait is not a deal breaker doesn’t mean it won’t give you a relative advantage or disadvantage.

  29. My philosophy has always been that each individual is responsible for their own orgasms. Since a lot of it has to do with the state of mind, it would be irrational to blame someone for not getting you off. If one does not think the other is “doing it right” then it’s also their responsibility to communicate what they want and need sexually.

    As I would expect from a woman, this is a nice, self-indicating personalization, but it does nothing to address the larger issue of this social convention. The problem with men rationally communicating desire with women is that it ‘spoils the magic’. Observing the process will change it. Women want a Man who “just gets it”:

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

    It would seem that the most logical solution would be to overtly communicate desire to a partner – far too many men make this mistake already – but women don’t want to be told how to perform, neither do they want to tell their partner how to perform because it ruins the meta-fitness test of his ability to ‘get women’.

    Part of my inspiration for writing this post came from this thread:

    http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1039/fos-what-i-wish-my-husband-knew-about-what-i-want-in-the-bedroom/p4

    I wonder what you’d tell the women on this forum?

  30. Women are not as orgasm-driven as men.

    The root of this thinking is projection. Men think our orgasm is the most important part of sex to us, so it must be the most important thing to women, right?? Wrong.

    To men, sex is an orgasm. To women, sex is an experience.

    Of course, there’s really no reason not to be good in bed, if you see it as part of being the best man you can be. If you see it as “I need to give her orgasms or she’ll leave me”, then you are playing with a beta scarcity mindset.

  31. Women are not as orgasm-driven as men.

    The root of this thinking is projection. Men think our orgasm is the most important part of sex to us, so it must be the most important thing to women, right?? Wrong.

    And this problem is perpetuated by media stereotypes that orgasm is the most important thing to women. That is to say, men make this mistake perhaps due to brainwashing and perhaps due to projection, but then, an enormous number of women make the SAME mistake about themselves based on Sex and the City/Cougarville, etc. tropes – “We’re going to have sex like men!” A typical case, as Rollo has pointed out before, of women not knowing what, in fact, they want.

    I would wonder how much of that is due to inherent female nature, and how much is due to being convinced by the meta-message to want things which are unnatural for a woman…

  32. Seems true. I don’t really need orgasms during sex, but I can choose to have them when I want… Gotta say a man worrying about the woman’s orgasm would put pressure on her, a very bad thing.

  33. Thank.
    Fvking.
    God.

    …..for this post.

    I cannot tell you how many women I have fvked for only my pleasure, and they still want me over and over again. Not because I made them orgasm, but simply because I was the masculine man they wanted.

    Listen up men. Sometimes she will orgasm. Sometimes she will not. In the end, it is about who she desires. And if she desires you over other men (meaning you have been maintaining the proper frame), then the rest will take care of itself.

    She does NOT need to orgasm every time you have sex. But she DOES need a masculine man in her life for every step of the way. Which do you think is more important. I know what life has taught me to be the most important of the two.

  34. “Gotta say a man worrying about the woman’s orgasm would put pressure on her, a very bad thing.”

    Ah yes, now when the wimminz don’t cum, they feel bad about themselves instead of projecting that onto their male partner. Complete Bullshit. So when the woman whips out a vibrator after you’ve had sex, because princess didn’t cum, instead of making the man feel bad, this act actually makes the woman feel bad. Complete Bullshit. Hamster Overdrive Warp Speed Engaged.

  35. Nah, not caring about her orgasm is purely pragmatic. Why? Because women are all-over-the-map in that department: Some will coming before you get their pants off, others require a 20 minute vibe ride in total silence. (And yes the latter have self-esteem issues about it.) The ones in the middle might be a little tricky.

    I see this all the time on the Internet, some guy will be bragging about how his girl comes like a machine gun. In reality, its 10% him, 90% her.

    It’s not that good sex isn’t important. But IME the bar is pretty low. If you can get it up, not prematurely ejaculate, and keep a rhythm going for longer than a few minutes, you’re probably halfway ahead of the pack. And, again, most women aren’t focused on their own orgasms.

  36. Love your writing Rollo but not sure I agree with this one… It CAN be totally alpha to make her come first. And then they become obsessed with you. Having a girl say “where the fuck did you learn that?!” is one of the most gratifying things I’ve ever heard. It’s all in the frame you set.

    http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/1303/

    As a girl described a guy she rated 12 out of 10… he insisted that I come before him, each time.
    3MM: Something I highly recommend, and always seek to do. You’re able to concentrate on her pleasure. It also shows you’re in control of yourself. AND as Beckster once warned me – when you make women come, they become obsessed with you.

  37. I have to keep reminding myself of the subtle capture of the feminine imperative. I feel bad if I lead a girl on then dump her, but then remind myself of all the hundreds of girls who’ve led me on without the slightest pang of guilt. Alls fair in love and war. For as long as women have the vote, they have to take their lumps like men.

  38. I had a sleep sex episode one time. I woke up, barely, spooning my girl. I had a rager going. She made the appropriate noises and did the tell tale slight leg spread. I was still mostly asleep but somehow managed to climb on. I slammed on her for a few short minutes, completed my task and immediately fell back to sleep. Definitely not my best work. I’m sure I was the only one who finished. When the morning arrived, I awoke with her wrapped around me and holding me tight. I was thinking to myself, meh, everyone is entitled to a bad day. She started telling me how fantastic it was. She was in a super mood for days. Chicks….

  39. @krauser: Something you wrote struck me. I believe in the idea of Pay It Forward. I don’t necessarily need to help someone who helped me (they probably don’t need it); I turn to someone else who needs my help and they help the next person.

    I don’t, however, think this concept of Dump It Forwards works. I don’t know whether you have anything to feel guilty over and I’m not going to be judgemental of you personally, but I feel treating others badly because a third party treated one badly is not right. It doesn’t hurt the person who hurt you in the past if you hurt someone in the future. It hurts the future person.

    I stated, almost exactly a year ago, that I’d give up the right to vote to see our male/female relationships sorted out right. I don’t like being punished for what past women did. This is just a larger example of the example you gave. I think if we want to see any progress, we have to be willing all the time to stop thinking and acting in this cycle.

  40. I stated, almost exactly a year ago, that I’d give up the right to vote to see our male/female relationships sorted out right. I don’t like being punished for what past women did. This is just a larger example of the example you gave. I think if we want to see any progress, we have to be willing all the time to stop thinking and acting in this cycle.

    I agree with you in theory, but I think the men here will say, and I will agree, that it needs to be women to take the first step. Men have chivalrously tolerated each new demand literally for generations, and are only in the last 2-3 generations seeing any pay off, not in actual equity, but in ease of access. It’s basically the one consolation they’ve got after losing many other privileges and rights.

    If there’s going to be a change, and there SHOULD be, then women need to collectively own up that feminism hasn’t worked out (not just disavow the title and still unknowingly reap the rewards as many, including myself at one time, do). We will need to apologize and seek/support corrective action, and we will need to bring our sisters aboard and help each other toe the line.

    While I don’t think “dump it forward” is a, uh, “kind” policy, it is a fair adaptation to survive in a world where, as Krauserpua points out, many women don’t seriously think twice about flaking on a guy. Besides, as I understand “pump-n-dump”, you’re generally looking at one night stand, or a verrrrrry brief flirtation stage before you get to the boning. The “good” girls who don’t put out won’t get hurt, and the rest of the girls are probably either sluts who don’t attach well anyhow, or else, they were young enough to make a mistake, and won’t make that mistake again – unless they become sluts. ^-^

  41. @Krauser,
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/the-difficulty-of-gaming-women-by-age-bracket/

    36 to 38 year olds

    She is at peace with her spinsterhood and her failure in the dating market. She will acquiesce easily and gratefully to sex with very little game, as long as you don’t look like a grandpa. Her expectations are so low, it will be a challenge to disappoint her.

    If you are prone to guilt, you might feel it when you inevitably dump a woman in this age range. Don’t. Remind yourself that her past is littered with her insouciant dumping of many beta men before you. You are merely an alpha agent of righteous karma.

  42. >“Do what she says and you’ll be a high value man”

    A few months ago, I went to a prom and met a group of girls who talked about their classmates. They were slandering about one beta guy in class, how he’s such a weirdo etc.

    “What’s so bad about him?”, I asked
    “He always does what you tell him to do”, they replied in a dismissive tone of voice.

    It’s stuck in my head ever since.

  43. Getting to this a little late, but I love finding new (to me) articles on your site, Rollo.

    I’m going to come across a little crass, because I don’t know of a more gentle or eloquent way to say this. Also going to be a bit personal.

    In my bedroom, it’s shut the fuck up and do what I say. I don’t need input. I don’t accept input. If she tells me what to do or even makes a mild suggestion, I’ll often do the opposite and establish my dominance in some way.

    I’m not going to insist that this is the true Alpha Way or even the best way, but it’s my way.

    Love-making for me is a long activity. I don’t do quickies, because why do anything but prolong one of the best things in life? I start slow and take my time.

    As far as her orgasm is concerned, in my experience, especially recently in life, her cum rate is around 80% of the time.

    Whether she’s faking or not is irrelevant to me, because I get what I want out of it, which is a woman who is (at least seemingly) completely undone by the pleasure I give her.

    It’s intensely gratifying and just really damn fun.

    So, what I’m trying to say is this:
    Giving her the fuck of her life should come from a place of because-that’s-what-I-want, not from because-I’m-supposed-to.

    Not giving a fuck about what she thinks she wants, taking absolute control, pushing the boundaries of what’s appropriate, ignoring her when she says “ow,” all these things have yielded more gratitude and requests for more sex than the alternative approach ever did for me.

    It goes back to paying more attention to female behavior than to female input.

    I learned much of this mindset from you, Rollo. And it has brought an immense joy and sense of peace to my life.

    Thank you!

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