You Be the Boy

The following is a poem by Marie Howe that I recently became aware of from an NPR ‘Fresh Air’ interview:

Practicing

BY MARIE HOWE

I want to write a love poem for the girls I kissed in seventh grade,
a song for what we did on the floor in the basement

of somebody’s parents’ house, a hymn for what we didn’t say but thought:That feels good or I like that, when we learned how to open each other’s mouths

how to move our tongues to make somebody moan. We called it practicing, and one was the boy, and we paired off—maybe six or eight girls—and turned out

the lights and kissed and kissed until we were stoned on kisses, and lifted our nightgowns or let the straps drop, and, Now you be the boy:

concrete floor, sleeping bag or couch, playroom, game room, train room, laundry. Linda’s basement was like a boat with booths and portholes

instead of windows. Gloria’s father had a bar downstairs with stools that spun, plush carpeting. We kissed each other’s throats.

We sucked each other’s breasts, and we left marks, and never spoke of it upstairs outdoors, in daylight, not once. We did it, and it was

practicing, and slept, sprawled so our legs still locked or crossed, a hand still lost in someone’s hair . . . and we grew up and hardly mentioned who

the first kiss really was—a girl like us, still sticky with moisturizer we’d shared in the bathroom. I want to write a song

for that thick silence in the dark, and the first pure thrill of unreluctant desire, just before we’d made ourselves stop.

Before you get titillated by this or think “WTF Rollo?” read the poem again. Despite reader compliments, I wish I could say I was more of a poetry aficionado; and yes Howe fits the man-jawed, womyn’s studies archetype to the letter, but after hearing this I had to look up the poem and read it for myself to really get the message. This is a message that I’m not even sure if Howe is really aware of, or intended communicating – You be the boy.

I’ve written in the past about sexual fluidity and the brilliance of it becoming the redefined, reinvented social convention du jour of feminization. I say ‘brilliant’ because it so deftly and conveniently places the inadequacies of its ideology on the backs of the men who wont (really can’t) play along in affirming women’s primacy. Men’s evolved biological predilections and sexual strategies simply refuse to be unengineered into complying with feminized utopian ideals. This has always been the bugbear of feminism. Empowered single mommies can raise a boy to pee sitting down, to leave the toilet seat down, but he still finds he has a natural compulsion to want to take a piss standing up, and seat be damned. It takes half a lifetime of psychological conditioning to repress the male sexual experience.

Similarly, sexual fluidity doctrine also gives the aging spinster a new outlook in her post-Wall years. “Never mind that men wont man up to our your mythologized standards, it appears you’ve been a lesbian all these long years and didn’t know it! But don’t worry, masculinized lesbians make for better ‘men’ than men.”

From Sexual Fluidity:

If you read through the article Why Women are Leaving Men for Other Women, you can’t help but notice the commonalities of the testimonies coming from otherwise feminine women being attracted to more dominant, masculine women. Often these come from long married-with-children women who’ve divorced their beta husbands in favor of a more dominant, butch, Alpha lesbian.

Ironically—or not, as some might argue—it is certain “masculine” qualities that draw many straight-labeled women to female partners; that, in combination with emotional connection, intimacy, and intensity.

“Men can’t understand why I want to be with Jack, a lesbian, when I could be with a biological man,” says Gomez-Barris. “And at first I thought it would be threatening, but I have a rebellious spirit. He’s powerful, accomplished, and appealing. And in some ways, the experience is better than in heterosexual sex.

So what are we seeing here? Heterosexual women, still crave the masculine dominance that men cannot or will not provide her.

Uncle Roosh has an uncanny knack for posting complimentary articles around the same time I’m contemplating a topic, and this offering was no exception. One thing his study on Eastern European women seems to have a consensus on is a lack of masculinity in feminized men (see: American Betas). Roosh’s article provides an interesting contrast to the sexual fluidity convention in illustrating a natural dominant/submissive dynamic that is an in-born imperative for women.

Hypergamy prompts a natural contradiction for women – security and provisioning versus sexual impulse and genetic preselection – this is the root of women’s evolved pluralistic sexual strategies, get the Alpha seed, get the long term provisioning. In the past I’ve gone into detail outlining the innate compulsion women have for desiring security (and parental investment) in the long term, but I think the idea of what represents security to women needs a better explanation.

Case Study

My friend Dave was a stereotypical beta chump and his shrew of a wife was the typical ballbusting so-con feminist who was only too willing to browbeat reminders of it into him constantly. In other respects Dave was a great guy, the sole provider for his family, a great handyman who renovated his home with his own hands (he even built me a nice wood guitar rack for my guitars), but to anyone who’d see him and his wife together it was clear that he was on the receiving end of what I’d consider borderline abuse. He essentially married his mother, who was also a domineering bitch over his father, which is ironic since his wife was already a single mother of two boys when they wed. They had a single daughter who, in her teenage years, took her cues from her mother and picked up the browbeating when mom wasn’t available.

Yet for all the domineering and all the derision she was so comfortable in laying on Dave, she would rip into anyone who would think he was less than a man. She could call him a pussy, but anyone saying the same would be met with a list of his manly credits to such a degree that you’d hardly think you were talking about the same person in the room. She would defend his manliness with the same zeal she had in abusing it. For all of Dave’s wife’s invectives she couldn’t allow anyone to think that the man she was paired with was anything less than the ideal of manhood. On some level of consciousness she wanted him to be dominante even if that meant she had to manufacture the appearance of it for people who knew them.

You be the Boy

The impetus that brought this post about has been the recent discussion thread about Rational reader Ted D’s situation at home. He’s been stuck for some time over at Hooking Up Beta, but his story, and others like it are all too common in a fem-centric socialization that encourages equalism in favor of complimentarianism. It’s the triumph of blank slate ideology that men should be shamed out of a natural position of dominance that women’s own in-born need for security has need for. It’s tragic that it’s been conditioned to the the point that men have internalized equalism to such an extent that the desire to assume a necessary position of dominance, even a marginal position of guidance or leadership is equated with a tyranny. Even the word ‘dominance’ is conflated with power and control in a negative context.

From the first Iron Rule of Tomassi:

What these men failed to realize is that frame, like power, abhors a vacuum.  In the absence of the frame security a woman naturally seeks from a masculine male, this security need forces her to provide that security for herself. Thus we have the commonality of cuckold and submissive men in westernized culture, while women do the bills, earn the money, make the decisions, authorize their husband’s actions and deliver punishments. The woman is seeking the security that the man she pair-bonded with cannot or will not provide.

There is no such thing as egalitarian equality. Even for homosexuals, there is a dominant and submissive partner. It doesn’t make one an evil controller, nor the other a complacent doormat, it’s just that someone has to drive the car. Either you trust that person to drive or you take that control away from them. Someone has to be the boy.

Power abhors a vacuum, if you are unable or unwilling to be in control of the frame, a woman’s innate need for security will compel her to control it for you – in spite of her subconscious need for you to be the boy. You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car. This is the paradox of Hypergamy; that her desire for the best genetic/provisional partner would conflict with his ability to dominate her, all while professing a desire for equality masquerading as control just in case he can’t or wont take the driver’s seat.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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YOHAMI
Guest

Well delivered. I hope Ted picks it up.

Brian
Guest
Brian

“Often these come from long married-with-children women who’ve divorced their beta husbands in favor of a more dominant, butch, Alpha lesbian.”

That describes my step-sister (the butch) and her “life partner” perfectly. My step-sister’s partner has said numerous times that she never had any interest in women before meeting my step-sister.

What really scrambles my parents’ brains is that my step-sister, the butch lesbian, is also quite conservative politically.

Sam Spade
Guest
Sam Spade

I’ve never mentioned this before, but my wife (who’s from Brazil) clearly enjoys being the ‘submissive.’ (Sex jokes aside.) She not only does 90% of the shopping and cleaning for both of us, but she ENJOYS it. As such, I reward her by accompanying her on some shopping trips, cooking some meals, etc., just to let her know I appreciate what she does. (I also do the “man work.”) She never utters a berating word in my presence – and certainly not in the presence of others. And neither do I. But that’s beside the point. I’ve noticed from time… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

I’m here. 😉

Like I said, I feel like I’ve gotten better information here about my particular situation than anywhere else. I can’t say that on occasion it doesn’t sting, but I’ll live. I’m tired of being stressed over this stuff.

Kuraje
Guest
Kuraje

Did you find her Stateside?

I find myself taking on the mental attitude of Danger & Play (http://dangerandplay.wordpress.com/) with American & Americanized women.

Some resist it and eventually settle into the dynamic as it becomes routine but actively resist it being labeled exactly what it is thanks to how unpopular feminism has made it to be anything less than Ms. Independent Need Man For Nothing.

Sure would be nice to just run into women who happily endorse it from the onset.

Who’s spreading this men like a challenge garbage?

Samuel
Guest

I think when Dominance is properly presented, even a staunch feminist can appreciate the appeal. They do, in fact, want the boy to be the boy… but they don’t want to be led by an incompetent. If a man is properly Dominant per his inherent nature, the woman will typically respond to it beautifully with submission, and it is as natural as birds building a nest. It is INSTINCT. the only time a woman needs training to be submissive to a man is if she has already been confused by lies that say her instincts are wrong, and needs the… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

I mentioned on the other thread that I dropped some dominance game on a chick last weekend when I told her what we were doing, when were going to do it, and also what to wear. She shows up at my house, hair and makeup are all done, but she has to change into her dress (she lives with her conservative parents who probably wouldn’t appreciate a skin tight black and pink number that barely covers her ass cheeks) She comes out with the dress on. I look at her, cock my head to the side and ask “Is that… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

When it’s about behavior, if you “explain” things to her, in hopes she does something, the verbal > action feels to her like manipulation. It doesnt matter if you are explaining that 2+2 is 4 so therefore she needs to bring more money. She wont get it. She’ll extract emotional content from it. Male talking to her so she does something = verbal coercion frame. She will feel negative emotions, and respond to the negative emotions, framing you and her negative emotions as the same thing. And you only wanted her to bring more money because that’s the math… who… Read more »

Nutz
Guest
Nutz

“There is no such thing as egalitarian equality. Even for homosexuals, there is a dominant and submissive partner. It doesn’t make one an evil controller, nor the other a complacent doormat, it’s just that someone has to drive the car. Either you trust that person to drive or you take that control away from them. Someone has to be the boy.” This is exactly what Athol Kay talked about over at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/blog when he came up with the Captain & First Officer analogy of how his marriage works. He’s Picard and his wife is Riker. That sounds weird, but in… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

“When it’s about behavior, if you “explain” things to her, in hopes she does something, the verbal > action feels to her like manipulation. It doesnt matter if you are explaining that 2+2 is 4 so therefore she needs to bring more money. She wont get it. She’ll extract emotional content from it.” Yep, This is what I struggle with. I still cannot fathom how women do this, but you are absolutely correct in that explaining to them just doesn’t work. They can take something that contains absolutely NO emotional content, and somehow get upset by it. Women are supposedly… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

They can take something that contains absolutely NO emotional content, and somehow get upset by it. It’s a skill. 😉 This may be a hamster spin, so take this for what it’s worth (maybe nothing, guys if I’m wrong please say so). We take a conversation above and see it as having done something wrong in your eyes. Two contradictory emotions spring up: “We were displeasing/I am my own person so it should not matter I was displeasing.” Irrational rationalizations ensue. They will make perfect sense to her and absolutely be irrelevant to you or the situation. Women are supposedly… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Right. I often forget that “communicator” is PC speak for “can’t stop talking.”

YOHAMI
Guest

Ah. That too. If you tell her she’s doing something wrong, or, worse, if you dont tell her but she assumes youre saying she did something wrong but you’re not even frontal enough to say it… she´ll feel bad. Bad, because doing something wrong really means there’s something wrong with her. Which makes you very mean for pointing that out. Why are you so mean? No seriously who do you think you are to make her feel that way? what’s wrong with you? and now what are you going to do to alleviate all the drama you caused? Ah. Women.… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Excellent post, Yohami.

Women think and communicate on an entirely different plane. Men, being the rational sex just cannot appreciate the complexity of it all.

That’s why I have long maintained that men who are successful with women are the ones who are able to communicate on their level. Make them relate to the content. Make them feel the message. A rational communication style doesn’t work. With women it is all about the sizzle, not the steak.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Ted D, read this: https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/imagination/ This is the single greatest failing of average frustrated chumps; they vomit out everything about themselves, divulging the full truth of themselves to women in the mistaken belief that women desire that truth as a basis for qualifying for their intimacy. Learn this now: Women NEVER want full disclosure. Nothing is more self-satisfying for a woman than to think she’s figured a Man out based solely on her mythical feminine intuition (i.e. imagination). When a man overtly confirms his character, his story, his value, etc. for a woman, the mystery is dispelled and the bio-chemical… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

Ted D wrote: I still cannot fathom how women do this, but you are absolutely correct in that explaining to them just doesn’t work. Have you never had any interaction with children? That’s how to “fathom” it. Comparing a woman to a child is not demeaning. She is no child, she is an adult, with reasoning capacities and an ability to take responsibility. (Woman: “How do you write women so well?” Melvin: “I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.”) But relative to her male counterpart, she is more childish, and that has to be taken… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

“It’s as if the actual content of the message is irrelevant, the only important thing is how hearing the message makes her feel.” Yep. PUAs call this “change her mood, not her mind.” it’s why nice guys can’t “convince” a girl he’s perfect for her by listing off his achievements and pointing out all the rational reasons they’d be a good couple. It applies to all sorts of stuff, from arguing with your wife to pulling girls from a nightclub. “let’s go get food” “I can’t” “joke joke tease tease” “giggle giggle” “let’s go get food” “okay!!!” Next time you… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Learn this now: Women NEVER want full disclosure. Nothing is more self-satisfying for a woman than to think she’s figured a Man out based solely on her mythical feminine intuition (i.e. imagination). Last Friday when I was out with the chick I mentioned above, she complained that I never ask her to do anything. The reason why I don’t is another subject altogether but toward the end of the discussion she says to me “You’re really hard to read, you know that?” but what she was really saying was “You’re doing it right, keep it up”. There is nothing you… Read more »

LionSoul
Guest
LionSoul

It’s true that some men are just not meant to be dominant. Those are the guys I call betas at heart… or just plain lazy. 😉 You can only pretend for so long and then it just becomes too much to fake. Women can see through it pretty darn well. Not all men should produce, you know–just playing(or not). That’s why I always question the whole PUA thing. I mean, if you were a truly dominant man… would you need to practice lines, wear stupid get-ups, or worry about ‘negs’. No. I sure don’t. I just see a bunch of… Read more »

Suz
Guest

YES!!!!
Knee-jerk assumption of guilt collides head-on with knee-jerk rebellion against it. We can’t handle the (yes, totally irrelevant) conflict, so we dump it on him. If we could manage to NOT assume that criticism is being applied, we’d have no guilt or rebellion. But we’ve never learned how to assess anything calmly, we just go off.

Philalethes
Guest
Philalethes

Just a quick vocabulary note: Check the difference between “compliment” and “complement”. They’re entirely different words; you used the first (and a derivative) several times when I believe you meant the second. (A common error in our semi-literate times, like the confusion between “lie” and “lay”.)

LionSoul
Guest
LionSoul

Also, keep in mind that it makes a huge difference in your ability to maintain a LTR. Yeah, you can bang chicks(pump and dump) over a month, but if you want a successful relationship for the long term… you need to be the leader. You need to be naturally decisive, sure of yourself, and willing to keep things new(for yourself–and in turn, for her).

If you are fake and not truly dominant, she will eventually sniff it out and move on. It’s just in her programming.

Johnycomelately
Guest
Johnycomelately

I’ve lost faith in the masculinity of the younger generation, I just got sacked from a soccer coaching gig after one training session, get this, because training was too hard and I swore too much!

YOHAMI
Guest

“Yet for all the domineering and all the derision she was so comfortable in laying on Dave, she would rip into anyone who would think he was less than a man. ”

She needs to nag him and demean him, that’s how she controls him.

However when anyone else attacks him, she sees it as an attack on HERSELF, hence she defends him.

He’s a tool, but he’s her tool. If other people can attack or can gain control over the dude she’s in danger.

141
Guest
141

Women are eternal teenagers. It’s like their periods keep them in puberty and then when they hit menopause, Boom! they finally become adults.

T and A Man
Guest
T and A Man

Hi Rollo, Again you’re a class commentator. There is one thing I would like to raise. Much of what you say is, in my comprehension anyway, descriptive, and not much in the way of prescriptive. Now you do offer wonderful insights but the general male mind does learn better with accompanying prescriptive inputs. Your Iron rule #1 here is obvious to those who have taken the red pill. My question relating to this one is in a relationship dynamic, particuarly pre-red pill AFC’s, is the dominant/submissive heirachy reversible with game? Or can an AFC change the dynamic after swallowing the… Read more »

Jorgez
Guest
Jorgez

This brought back memories of the time I first successfully passed a shit test. Years ago, living with my first serious girlfriend, I was thunderstruck when she started freaking out on me in a nasty, irrational way. Such behavior on her part could only mean that I had unknowingly committed some sort of heinous crime against her, right? Some grievous offense that demanded immediate apologies and reparations, even if I couldn’t fanthom what it was. Of course, the more I placated her, the more I caved in, the more vicious it got. One day over breakfast, as she was starting… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

King A – “But relative to her male counterpart, she is more childish, and that has to be taken into account in this culture where we must officially pretend the empress has clothes on.” This is the “lie” I was talking about on the other thread. I don’t understand why we have to “pretend” when it seems obvious that equality is BS. We are working madly to figure out how to “work” the system instead of calling out all the crap and letting the chips fall where they will. I get that on an individual level, if I want to… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

GLC – “Women think and communicate on an entirely different plane. Men, being the rational sex just cannot appreciate the complexity of it all.”

But that’s just it. Women are completely capable of being rational, we just give them a free pass by allowing them to be emotionally bipolar all the time. I want to be in a relationship with a rational, intelligent, reasoning person.

It seems that unless I want to be in a relationship with another man, I’m asking for too much…

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

I’ve been called into HR for making a female computer tech feel “uncomfortable” for “making the work room feel like a men’s locker room”. and the worst part is, just a few days before, some of us guys were complaining that we had to be on our BEST behavior when she was around, so she wasn’t even hearing the worst of it. And once upon a time I told a female co-worker to stop being such an emotional twit and think with her head, and that got me written up because somehow the statement was sexist. I asked my boss… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

My goal is to change minds, who gives a shit about how that makes people feel? To a woman feeling is the truth. That is why you must manipulate the feelings before she is able to grasp the truth. You are still stuck on thinking that men and women think in the same manner. We do not. Feelings rule. Manipulate the feelings and you can bring her around to the truth. But stop trying to think that logic is going to go anywhere. It won’t until you can bring the feelings around first. Even then it may not work. Loading...

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

“Feelings rule.” and that has to be just about the most irresponsible way to live I can think of. OK, so lets just say I don’t feel much. How exactly do I manipulate how she “feels” when I don’t “feel” any particular way on the subject? Isn’t this an awful lot like asking me to read her mind? Change her feelings? Yes, I have feelings. But I ignore them most of the time, because frankly following my “feelings” is always a losing battle. So as a person that is not very “in tough” with how he feels, how am I… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

Ted D wrote: “I don’t understand why we have to ‘pretend’ when it seems obvious that equality is BS. We are working madly to figure out how to ‘work’ the system instead of calling out all the crap and letting the chips fall where they will.” Some of us do not pretend. We are still faceless-pseudonymous whispers in ghettoes right now, but word is circulating, and you are lucky enough to have landed in one of the forums speaking blunt truth. The culture at large is perpetuating the fantasy, but the commissars are tired, aging, enervating, dying. Cultural change is… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

Woman gaily singing an aria in the shower is a classic. Pithy, true, and memorable. An icon of a lesson about rightly reordering the hierarchy. The five senses harmonized with the knowledge intuited in our gut, the truth that shivers her pudendal nerve. I love it.

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Basically, yes. You sound like an intelligent introvert. Ted. That’s not an insult….I am the same kind of person. But that means that your brain seeks reason and meaning at an even higher level than most people, and you also have a lower capacity to take on other people’s shit. It sucks the energy out of you to have to deal with the burdens of a relationship. Unfortunately today’s society doesn’t make it easy for guys like us. But you have to adapt if you want to be successful. Polite society would like for you to believe that the mating… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

According to the tests posted at HUS, I am an INTJ. Until earlier this year, I didn’t even know this stuff existed, let alone that I was some “type” of person. But, what you describe above is 100% true for me. Taking on people’s “shit” does indeed suck me dry of energy to keep my own shit in order. I have few real friends because I can’t afford to take on “needy” people, and i expect them to take care of their own shit and only call me when they need backup. I kinda expected the same thing from a… Read more »

Coy
Guest
Coy

Interestingly, I just shifted the power dynamic with a girl i was orbiting.(“i know , i’m a recent red pill guy and she plays the good girl game”).So, I see her at work today, she gets nervous … runs away with a lame excuse.Minutes later I find a text on my phone: “Please don’t judge me.I had a talk with my ex.I am not comfortable discussing this issue with you …blah blah”(i asked her why she looks dead the other day.very casual.) I get shocked by the language.Considering I have been friend zoned by her before and I find out… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

“I am sure the thought of fighting this thing to the finish is wearisome for a man of your age,” Fighting a war? Not so bad. Trying to relearn everything I believed about relationships, women, and life in general? Well, that saying about teaching old dogs new tricks has a kernel of truth to it. But I’m not so old that I can’t learn. My real bone of contention with this is thinking of my SO as the ‘enemy’. How the hell am I supposed to treat her decently while viewing her as the bad guy? I don’t give people… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Ted, “how can you truly trust a woman to do what is best for you and your relationship with her? And if you can’t trust her, how can you call it a relationship at all?” Trust is important. But trust doesnt mean she will do what’s best for you, nor that you will do what’s best from her. All you can trust is nature. Nature means she will do, move to, and mold to, whatever “feels good” for her. Just like you will do, move to and mold to whatever seems to be “the right thing to do”. In a… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

I was only calling it ‘war’ because King A called it such. I’ve never considered it that way. Your answer is truly depressing to me. I really want her to have my back, and this implies I can never count on that. If it doesn’t feel good, she can’t be expected to do it. I can’t count on her to be an equal partner, nor will she be logical and reasonable. And I can’t count on her to do the right thing… What exactly IS the purpose of being in a relationship again? I’m not trying to be a smart… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Relationships: a nest to have kids.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

“If I’m actually arguing, of course I’m trying to change her mind.”

You’re already starting out on the wrong foot by arguing with her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s120QJv6Ikg

Replace “3 year old” with “woman”.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

“and that has to be just about the most irresponsible way to live I can think of.”

Yep.

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

“I kinda expected the same thing from a mate, but clearly that isn’t how it works.”

Correct. Now what will you do with this information?

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Well to be completely honest right now I’m evaluating exactly why i want/need a relationship with a woman at all. I already have children, and I have NO desire to make more, so I’m really asking myself what I’m getting out of this to make it worth while. I always assumed that what I was getting is a fully functioning partner to help me get where I’m going, but this is starting to sound like nothing but additional baggage. For right now I can’t honestly say what I’m going to do with the info. I have it, and now I… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

“I was getting is a fully functioning partner to help me get where I’m going”

No, you get a passanger with whom you share the fruits of your journey.

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Ted, You can’t trust a woman to the degree that her “feel good” comes from her unsatisfied child needs. When those arise sharply, you gotta lay down the law. withstand the storm, etc. When woman’s “feel good” came from a higher place (from G-d), it has always nourished me even if it came in a form of testing (as it only strengthened whatever my resolve was). It’s very important the discern these two because the former is pretty much the price to pay for the access to the latter. Ironically, the less of the former, the more of the latter.… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Ted, You are not getting a fully functioning partner because you aren’t one yourself yet. Once you figure out what YOU want from a woman (children, sexual polarity, support for *your own* journey), you can find a woman who wants to join you – not as a passenger but as a “working” part of your crew. You’ll have to learn how to attend to needs of your crew, delegate responsibilities and deal with their humanity. Viewing women as non-working passengers on your journey of life is a way to overlook their life-giving (in the most general sense) potential. But pick… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Sasha, you might be right. I cant tell for sure, all I´ve seen is passengers or “complete take overs” women. Note: if she’s part of your crew and youre the captain, she´s still a passanger on your ship.

Ted´s premise, or beta´s premise, disney premise, is to get a full, half partner that joins you on your life journey, on something that is not just to provide for a family. I havent seen that happening anywhere.

Captain Action
Guest

When learning PUA/ game skills, one of the main practices that gets drilled into a newbie is to aproach, aproach, aproach.
For a beta guy in a LTR learning Game, what should his main practice be to learn Alpha behavior? What’s repeatable and adaptable?

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

She’s a passenger who’s got one hand on the wheel, one hand on the shifter and her foot on top of his on the accelerator pedal.

YOHAMI
Guest

She´s got a hand on the wheel and a foot on the accelerator. Cool. Does she use that share of power to grant safety for herself, or does she use it to help you get where you wanted to go before she got her hand on the wheel, and her foot on the pedal?

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Rollo,

I had a comment go into moderation, I assume because it contained links. Thought you would want to know.

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Sasha – sadly what Yohami said is true. And this is why the Captain and First Officer setup tweaks me the wrong way. I was never looking for a passenger. I didn’t intend for MY dreams to become HER dreams. I was looking for a woman to join my “life journey” for more than simply raising a family. Surely I wanted her to be part of my plans, but because SHE wanted the same things, not just because *I* want them and she is a willing follower. I want someone to help me figure out how to get where I… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Yohami, I’ve read tons of your posts and I can semi-confidently say that much of your view on women (and life in general) stemmed from your powerlessness in front of your mother (a.k.a. the world) growing up. You burning desire for fame is a result of being non-recognized and squashed by her. Your perception of interaction with women being full of power-grabs seems to stem from power-struggle with her. How do you relate to her now? ****** There is a big difference between member of the crew and a passenger. Captain is also part of the crew and he is… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

In Ted’s case it’s because she doesn’t trust him to drive the car safely or in the direction she wants to go.

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Ted,

You want an offensive coach? You are getting offensive coaching from women in the realm of emotions. Your emotional body seems to be severely stiffed and underdeveloped – squashed between your over-active mind and your body. You are getting exactly what you want. IS that what you want?

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Ted,

Have you had business partners/offensive coaches in the past? Did you fuck them? No? Then don’t expect to have good sex/flow of man-woman love with a woman if you want her to be your mostly “business partner” and “coach”.

MGTOW is a way to separate oneself from “the mother” (and she repeatedly comes into your life as women) in order to figure out one’s direction and a way to relate to women as a man to a woman – not as a boy to a mother.

YOHAMI
Guest

Sasha, you’re right about my foundation, but.

“Your perception of interaction with women being full of power-grabs seems to stem from power-struggle with her.”

Actually, my perception that women are full of power grabs, is that women seem to be full of power grabs. Just watch them on any interaction.

But if you’re saying my bias is responsible for that perception, show me how they are not power grabbing and self serving?

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Yohami, I think we had a similar convo at HUS. I think you only see women full of power-grabs because that’s your basic/starting imprint. You have emotional blinders/closure to the rest and it’s “repetition compulsion” for you. That’s why I asked about your current rl with your mom. My experience can open up your mental space, but it’s your emotional body that is key. Myself. I’ve experienced a mix of power-grabs and very loving and supportive (of me) attitudes from women. Women whose doors were always open to me if I needed, women who cooked for me, women who were… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Sasha, Yep that´s how we started talking. “To be frank, they weren’t serving ME at those moments. They were serving something divine through me. They were getting something from me, but it was a loving effortless exchange – stuff that you describe “Disney Fairy-tale”.” That matches my experience with women since I’ve been in alpha mode, including my ex. It’s how they surrender to the stronger male force. Which is a power grab. An effortless and divine one and mutually beneficial, but still the same mechanics. “Disney fairy tale” would be: they join you and stay with you and care… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

“It’s how they surrender to the stronger male force. Which is a power grab.” But it’s not. It’s like calling all sex rape. Grab has a connotation of a forceful reach, an adversarial “give me a bigger piece of the pie”. What I describe enlarged that pie (and yes, she had a piece of it) and never felt grabby. “So, in the good, and in the bad, in sickness, and health.” A loyal crew will stay with a failing/sick captain for a long time – in sickness and in health. But they have places to reach themselves, so you can’t… Read more »

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

In my marriage, I felt the power and leadership slipping away from me little by little when we started having kids – two girls. While I still have the authority for our big decisions, my leadership has waned because our household is run by my wife, and our family’s schedule is dictated by the kids’ activities. My wife has the mommy network, she makes the play-dates, she is involved in the girl scouts, coordinates swim lessons, dance classes, buys their clothes, and gets them where they need to go all while I work. She shops for groceries, plans the meals,… Read more »

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

I failed to mention that we employ a nanny whom I never see because my wife is a highly educated career women who also works fulltime (but whose career is going nowhere). She is supermom.

YOHAMI
Guest

Sasha, “Grab has a connotation of a forceful reach, an adversarial “give me a bigger piece of the pie”.” Got it, for this argument let’s change “Grab” for “Gimme”. Forceful / graceful / friendly / adversarial are just modes of it. “All women in my life (including mom and sis) stayed with me through thick and thin.” Lucky dude. I´ve been consistently alone when I have to go through thick and thin. It has a LOT to do with the places Im going. It’s not all about gender. “I’d want to pick a woman who most of the time was… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Scruggs, That is tough, for both of you really. I am in the same boat as your wife as I do all the things you listed as well. She does do EVERYTHING . . . around the house. It is very difficult for wives to understand the day to day grind a man goes through as you all mostly don’t talk about it (I am not suggesting you do). Here’s the thing, though. Without what you provide, there would be NONE of that stuff. NONE OF IT. I would not know how to go about this, maybe one of the… Read more »

Hero
Guest
Hero

Try the Agree and Amplify route. She thinks she does everything? Let her do everything. She thinks you are selfish. Try actually being selfish for a change (you don’t sound selfish at all). And when she brings it up tease her about it… Her: You are being selfish. You: Not even. Just wait until I buy my deep sea fishing boat! I know that might conflict with your idea about what it is to be a good dad but sometimes you have to break out of a routine you are in so that people around you can see just how… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Oops. Never mind the SAHM and the bacon stuff then. This is even harder, then. I leave this to the other men for the time being.

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

But the underlying mode of exchange makes all the difference! If not, then “all sex is rape”. Changing it for “Gimme” keeps the connotation. Maybe you have to be there to feel it out – but it’s more of a longing “I want you here – come when you can. If you can’t – it’s ok. Just feeling this longing is enough”. Just openness-no grabs. ****** Actually, Yohami, I have been consistently alone when I go through thick and thin. “My women” are always there to help, but they rarely can. In fact, the weaker I get, the more they… Read more »

Hero
Guest
Hero

Ted, I unplugged about a year and a half ago and I know it is not easy. I have not followed your story on HUS but I feel your frustration in the comments here. I want to encourage you to stop asking yourself “Why?”. Focus on what gets you results. The acceptance will come. Remember the stages of grief are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. You sound like you are in Anger. I’ve been there. Try to stop asking yourself “Why is society like this? Why are women like this? Why has feminism led us wrong?” Focus on making… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Sasha, “it’s more of a longing “I want you here – come when you can.” Gimme-longing-grab-take-receiving end, etc. It’s ying polarity. “Just openness-no grabs.” Desire? hunger? like I said, it can have connotations, be friendly, forceful, whatever. It’s still a vector that takes from the outside and puts “it” in. Do you agree with that? when you say they enlarge the pie, rather than just take / exchange for a piece of the pie – what do you mean? “In fact, the weaker I get, the more they try to pry into my life, try to collapse me and suck… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Yes, it’s ying polarity, but it’s “divine” ying – it doesn’t come from biology, it doesn’t come from hunger, it doesn’t come from the past/karma. It comes from the beauty of the moment. I don’t know how to describe it better. The increased “pie” of love-energy is the result of the union of her ying and my yang. Addition to the pie is the energetic child of our interaction. Even though she took some of my “semen” in, I got replenished over with the newborn energy. ******* “Sounds like my mom wanting me to go visit? ” Yes. They feel… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Wow, this sounds snarky. Not meant that way at all. I meant I am out of my league with this one as I can’t relate. My apologies.

jim
Guest
jim

easy solution

prohibit women from owning assets

..then security MUST be provided by men…the female hindbrain submits because her shelter and food depends on it….everyone is happy

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Ted, I never bought into adversarial (war) framework advocated by so many in the manosphere. I think of relationship with a woman as a dance – not combat or martial art. Do you try to “one-up” your dance partner? No. Your best *mutual* performance is your goal. You can solo in front of each other and *role-play* competition, but it’s a small part. But to achieve a good partner dance, you have to be a solid lead and she has to be a solid follow. And being a solid lead means knowing how to dance on your own, knowing how… Read more »

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

Thanks Stingray, you’re a gem. I only realized that my situation sounded like a SAHM one after I re-read it. Although I have always made ~25% more than her that is not an issue. I’ll add another detail to my story and this is for all the men out there who have taken the red pill and think that choosing non-American women solve all your problems. I married an Eastern European: feminine, beautiful, sweet and loving. I knew when I married her that she wanted her children to speak her language. I had no problem with that, I thought it… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Scruggs,

What do you want from your wife? How do *you* love her today? How would you describe your ideal relationship with her and your kids? Is your work something that matters to you deeply or a way to support yourself/her/kids?

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

Ok, I’ll play along. Essentially, I want her to want to please me. She is the only woman I have loved, but I don’t love her anymore. She has hurt me too much. I treat her only as well as she treats me. My relationship with my kids is very good. At work I have autonomy and authority. It is the job I would have killed for when I started my career. It is not my passion, but I am challenged and get to use my talents and am well paid for it.

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

Thanks, I hear what you are saying. This (my life) is what I want to be doing. Except for my marriage, life is good. I come home from work and talk about the good things, I never complain. I do well in my sport, and I love it. I’ve known my closest friends since we were in elementary school – these are men I can count on. But the way things are, to divorce my wife is to divorce my children too. Actually, I am not that selfish. I put my kids needs over my own. I don’t think there… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Scruggs, I feel you. She won’t respond to you with the love you want unless you love her through action/words/being (despite lack of “feeling”). You have to see if she is open to being seduced by you today Think back to what you did when you “loved her”. Do it now – especially when you want it the least. That’s if you want to give your marriage a shot/improve it. If not, you can divorce, stay a great dad to your kids from somewhat further away and look for another woman to love – but I suspect the story is… Read more »

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

Thanks Sasha. I have read Deida and appreciate his work. Viewed through Deida’s lens, m/f polarity is our problem. it is not that I am too feminine or that we are opposites, but that she is too masculine. Her life is all plan and action. We are both masculine, which is why there is conflict and a power struggle. In my experience, caring more, trying to draw her closer only breeds more contempt. She doesn’t want to be seduced, she is happy to use me as her provider/fixer. Following my passion isn’t going to change anything. It won’t change her… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

It should also be noted that it can take a LONG time for a man to truly grasp the idea that women are completely clueless about a lot of the things they do and why they do them. I have been pretty clued up about this stuff for over a decade now but it wasn’t until about 5 years ago that it really sunk in that women can do some crazy, fucked up shit and think they are 100% in the right. On a conscious level you can understand the concept behind “watch what they do, not what they say”… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

You say “She is too masculine” and I hear “Scruggs could try going deeper into his masculine”. You can’t change her present agenda but you can become a deeper man who is higher priority than her agenda. You won’t know until you try. Did you feel her love/desire to please you back when you loved her? Was she a good wife/woman to you for any period of time outside of “honeymoon” period? Loving her isn’t necessarily about “drawing her closer”/caring more. Following your passion will change YOU. YOU will become a different man who might feel her deeper and she… Read more »

eric
Guest
eric

I’ve heard the dom/sub thing a thousand times before and it rings true as always. However the meta-concept of a frame vacuum is brilliant.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Scruggs, Thank you. I can think of only one thing. If she is overly masculine, what she wants is you to be uber masculine. If you want to try to win her back, if you decide it is worth it, you would need to become hyper masculine, especially in the bedroom. My opinion is that this is what she truly desires and it is the only thing she would respond to. I’m talking HYPER masculine. Throwing her against the wall and holding her there type masculine, bondage, spanking, rough sex, etc. Then being hyper masculine in responding to her as… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Stingray is probably right. Caring more and talking and sorting issues will take you nowhere. Fuck her good.

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

Be more masculine. True, caring more and trying to bring her closer hasn’t worked. The only thing has worked to keep her in line is being super firm almost to the point of being an asshole. What I’m hearing is that I need to be a stronger, thicker oak tree. Either she comes back to me or she doesn’t. Following your passion will change YOU. YOU will become a different man who might feel her deeper and she might want to be closer to. I understand that you are in what feels like a stalemate re wife/kids but it’ll gnaw… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Heh,

HUS got GBFMed.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Scruggs, Regarding the sex. I wouldn’t ignore her protests. She may use that against you. Try going rough during foreplay to show much more dominance. I think you might be right that she doesn’t hink of you as dominant enough. Use the wall thing (a lot of women love that), tossing her about (gently but not too gently), commanding her, bondage (a tie will work), etc. See how she responds. It really might be hurting her, but I suspect more that she is just not as turned on as you. Doing this kind of thing might get her crazy. Tease… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Scruggs, Becoming stronger/thicker oak tree is growing in the plane you are in today. It’s a good thing to do and you strengthen yourself by plugging small boundary leaks by being super-firm – and her response is best indicator of this. But there is only so much thickness/strength you can gain without growing deeper roots to support a bigger trunk. The fact that you realize it is the first step and her response to your rougher sexing is confirmation of that as well. You simply are NOT at the level of depth/dominance today to (lovingly) sex her rough. It is… Read more »

Hero
Guest
Hero

I’m not necessarily talking about divorce and I didn’t say you were being selfish. Actually, it sounds like you are putting everyone’s needs in front of your’s. The way she’s treating you is obviously not the way you want to be treated. Make this known. Let your emotions show. Express the fact that you are not happy with it. Remember that a woman will not respect a man that she can walk on. Have standards for yourself. Stand up for yourself and demand what you want. It sounds like you are a great dad and you take care of things.… Read more »

Hero
Guest
Hero

And remember women abhor a power vacuum and will fill it in if she has to (but will not be happy about it). This is confusing in practice. You think “she wants to be in control so I will let her” but she doesn’t WANT to HAVE to be in control. Stingray said in comment on another post that women are terrified by a power vacuum. Think about that when your wife is structuring everything around her. She’s attempting to create safety but she would much rather that be done for her. Step in and step up. You don’t have… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

“Stingray said in comment on another post that women are terrified by a power vacuum. Think about that when your wife is structuring everything around her. She’s attempting to create safety but she would much rather that be done for her.” Yes. And your mindset starts by putting your priorities and your needs and your satisfaction first. It’s not what else do you need to do to please her. But what exactly do you need to be 100% content and good yourself, first. That’s where the rock-solid thing will come from. When you’re happy and accomplished and self reassured and… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Noted without comment.

Scruggs
Guest
Scruggs

Thanks all. It is almost like we’ve come back the main issue I introduced in my comment April 18th, 2012 at 6:57 pm where I described all the things she does. How do I take more of a leadership role when all these things that she does are part of her role as mother and woman of the house? I don’t see where I could ‘step up’ or how this created a power void. As you go deeper into your core self and start feeling your deeper truths (as in why the fuck are you living), you will start feeling… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Scruggs, You won’t understand it until you do it and experience it – it’s one of those things. I was sure laws of physics didn’t allow me to bunny-hop on the bike – but I surely was able to bunny-hop after trying hard enough. You couldn’t imagine being in your current job when you started, but walking that path got you to it today. The reason I mentioned your male-friends and that it’s likely none of them have gone deeper than you today themselves – otherwise one of them would have clued you in. In that sense, they aren’t helping… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

“I want someone to help me figure out how to get where I want to go” That’s YOU. That’s your job. You are a man, you need to get to know yourself to your core and figure out how to get where you want to go. “I want an offensive coach.” Again that’s you. You are a man. Figuring out your purpose and following a path in life is what you should be doing regardless of who’s around. You’re looking for someone to “fix” you and help you understand yourself but part of becoming a man is figuring that out… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

Ted C, YOHAMI, and Sasha wrote: I was only calling it ‘war’ because King A called it such. I’ve never considered it that way. … So you can picture that as a war. It isnt a war. It’s just not a fairy tale. … I never bought into adversarial (war) framework advocated by so many in the manosphere. I think of relationship with a woman as a dance … It is a war. That doesn’t mean you have to garrotte her in her sleep or burn yourself in front of the courthouse. But it does mean we are in a… Read more »

Sasha
Guest
Sasha

Matt,

Put down your light-saber and step away from the controls – your target is blurry. There might be a need to wage a war against faux-feminism, but there is no need to wage war against women. Sow war against *women* = reap more war.

If you *always* end up sleeping with the enemy, you might want to try sleeping with your brotherly friends for once.

Jorgez
Guest
Jorgez

Ah yes, “gaily”, not “gayfully” (English is not my first language). But truth be told, she was a bit of a butch. 🙂

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