You Be the Boy

The following is a poem by Marie Howe that I recently became aware of from an NPR ‘Fresh Air’ interview:

Practicing

BY MARIE HOWE

I want to write a love poem for the girls I kissed in seventh grade,
a song for what we did on the floor in the basement

of somebody’s parents’ house, a hymn for what we didn’t say but thought:That feels good or I like that, when we learned how to open each other’s mouths

how to move our tongues to make somebody moan. We called it practicing, and one was the boy, and we paired off—maybe six or eight girls—and turned out

the lights and kissed and kissed until we were stoned on kisses, and lifted our nightgowns or let the straps drop, and, Now you be the boy:

concrete floor, sleeping bag or couch, playroom, game room, train room, laundry. Linda’s basement was like a boat with booths and portholes

instead of windows. Gloria’s father had a bar downstairs with stools that spun, plush carpeting. We kissed each other’s throats.

We sucked each other’s breasts, and we left marks, and never spoke of it upstairs outdoors, in daylight, not once. We did it, and it was

practicing, and slept, sprawled so our legs still locked or crossed, a hand still lost in someone’s hair . . . and we grew up and hardly mentioned who

the first kiss really was—a girl like us, still sticky with moisturizer we’d shared in the bathroom. I want to write a song

for that thick silence in the dark, and the first pure thrill of unreluctant desire, just before we’d made ourselves stop.

Before you get titillated by this or think “WTF Rollo?” read the poem again. Despite reader compliments, I wish I could say I was more of a poetry aficionado; and yes Howe fits the man-jawed, womyn’s studies archetype to the letter, but after hearing this I had to look up the poem and read it for myself to really get the message. This is a message that I’m not even sure if Howe is really aware of, or intended communicating – You be the boy.

I’ve written in the past about sexual fluidity and the brilliance of it becoming the redefined, reinvented social convention du jour of feminization. I say ‘brilliant’ because it so deftly and conveniently places the inadequacies of its ideology on the backs of the men who wont (really can’t) play along in affirming women’s primacy. Men’s evolved biological predilections and sexual strategies simply refuse to be unengineered into complying with feminized utopian ideals. This has always been the bugbear of feminism. Empowered single mommies can raise a boy to pee sitting down, to leave the toilet seat down, but he still finds he has a natural compulsion to want to take a piss standing up, and seat be damned. It takes half a lifetime of psychological conditioning to repress the male sexual experience.

Similarly, sexual fluidity doctrine also gives the aging spinster a new outlook in her post-Wall years. “Never mind that men wont man up to our your mythologized standards, it appears you’ve been a lesbian all these long years and didn’t know it! But don’t worry, masculinized lesbians make for better ‘men’ than men.”

From Sexual Fluidity:

If you read through the article Why Women are Leaving Men for Other Women, you can’t help but notice the commonalities of the testimonies coming from otherwise feminine women being attracted to more dominant, masculine women. Often these come from long married-with-children women who’ve divorced their beta husbands in favor of a more dominant, butch, Alpha lesbian.

Ironically—or not, as some might argue—it is certain “masculine” qualities that draw many straight-labeled women to female partners; that, in combination with emotional connection, intimacy, and intensity.

“Men can’t understand why I want to be with Jack, a lesbian, when I could be with a biological man,” says Gomez-Barris. “And at first I thought it would be threatening, but I have a rebellious spirit. He’s powerful, accomplished, and appealing. And in some ways, the experience is better than in heterosexual sex.

So what are we seeing here? Heterosexual women, still crave the masculine dominance that men cannot or will not provide her.

Uncle Roosh has an uncanny knack for posting complimentary articles around the same time I’m contemplating a topic, and this offering was no exception. One thing his study on Eastern European women seems to have a consensus on is a lack of masculinity in feminized men (see: American Betas). Roosh’s article provides an interesting contrast to the sexual fluidity convention in illustrating a natural dominant/submissive dynamic that is an in-born imperative for women.

Hypergamy prompts a natural contradiction for women – security and provisioning versus sexual impulse and genetic preselection – this is the root of women’s evolved pluralistic sexual strategies, get the Alpha seed, get the long term provisioning. In the past I’ve gone into detail outlining the innate compulsion women have for desiring security (and parental investment) in the long term, but I think the idea of what represents security to women needs a better explanation.

Case Study

My friend Dave was a stereotypical beta chump and his shrew of a wife was the typical ballbusting so-con feminist who was only too willing to browbeat reminders of it into him constantly. In other respects Dave was a great guy, the sole provider for his family, a great handyman who renovated his home with his own hands (he even built me a nice wood guitar rack for my guitars), but to anyone who’d see him and his wife together it was clear that he was on the receiving end of what I’d consider borderline abuse. He essentially married his mother, who was also a domineering bitch over his father, which is ironic since his wife was already a single mother of two boys when they wed. They had a single daughter who, in her teenage years, took her cues from her mother and picked up the browbeating when mom wasn’t available.

Yet for all the domineering and all the derision she was so comfortable in laying on Dave, she would rip into anyone who would think he was less than a man. She could call him a pussy, but anyone saying the same would be met with a list of his manly credits to such a degree that you’d hardly think you were talking about the same person in the room. She would defend his manliness with the same zeal she had in abusing it. For all of Dave’s wife’s invectives she couldn’t allow anyone to think that the man she was paired with was anything less than the ideal of manhood. On some level of consciousness she wanted him to be dominante even if that meant she had to manufacture the appearance of it for people who knew them.

You be the Boy

The impetus that brought this post about has been the recent discussion thread about Rational reader Ted D’s situation at home. He’s been stuck for some time over at Hooking Up Beta, but his story, and others like it are all too common in a fem-centric socialization that encourages equalism in favor of complimentarianism. It’s the triumph of blank slate ideology that men should be shamed out of a natural position of dominance that women’s own in-born need for security has need for. It’s tragic that it’s been conditioned to the the point that men have internalized equalism to such an extent that the desire to assume a necessary position of dominance, even a marginal position of guidance or leadership is equated with a tyranny. Even the word ‘dominance’ is conflated with power and control in a negative context.

From the first Iron Rule of Tomassi:

What these men failed to realize is that frame, like power, abhors a vacuum.  In the absence of the frame security a woman naturally seeks from a masculine male, this security need forces her to provide that security for herself. Thus we have the commonality of cuckold and submissive men in westernized culture, while women do the bills, earn the money, make the decisions, authorize their husband’s actions and deliver punishments. The woman is seeking the security that the man she pair-bonded with cannot or will not provide.

There is no such thing as egalitarian equality. Even for homosexuals, there is a dominant and submissive partner. It doesn’t make one an evil controller, nor the other a complacent doormat, it’s just that someone has to drive the car. Either you trust that person to drive or you take that control away from them. Someone has to be the boy.

Power abhors a vacuum, if you are unable or unwilling to be in control of the frame, a woman’s innate need for security will compel her to control it for you – in spite of her subconscious need for you to be the boy. You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car. This is the paradox of Hypergamy; that her desire for the best genetic/provisional partner would conflict with his ability to dominate her, all while professing a desire for equality masquerading as control just in case he can’t or wont take the driver’s seat.


116 responses to “You Be the Boy

  • YOHAMI

    Well delivered. I hope Ted picks it up.

  • Brian

    “Often these come from long married-with-children women who’ve divorced their beta husbands in favor of a more dominant, butch, Alpha lesbian.”

    That describes my step-sister (the butch) and her “life partner” perfectly. My step-sister’s partner has said numerous times that she never had any interest in women before meeting my step-sister.

    What really scrambles my parents’ brains is that my step-sister, the butch lesbian, is also quite conservative politically.

  • Sam Spade

    I’ve never mentioned this before, but my wife (who’s from Brazil) clearly enjoys being the ‘submissive.’ (Sex jokes aside.) She not only does 90% of the shopping and cleaning for both of us, but she ENJOYS it. As such, I reward her by accompanying her on some shopping trips, cooking some meals, etc., just to let her know I appreciate what she does. (I also do the “man work.”) She never utters a berating word in my presence – and certainly not in the presence of others. And neither do I. But that’s beside the point.

    I’ve noticed from time to time certain “comments” from other (American) women. They can be nice or joking in their tone, but the subtext is there: “You have your wife trained well.” And it’s not meant as a compliment.

    One woman actually used those words – “trained well” – to my face. I told her, “I didn’t train her to do anything; she just does it.” Well, Brazil trained her then, was the indignant retort. Maybe so. And maybe it’s possible that a woman can be happy serving her man without having to find some mental handicap or brainwashing job that’s responsible for her supposed “inequality.”

    In our marriage, there is no question as to who is “the boy” and who is “the girl.” We like it that way, and we don’t care how many women or betas get upset over it.

    As an footnote, and a lame attempt at a metaphor – no one would ever say that a plug and an outlet need to be more “equal.” An outlet delivers electricity from its source, and a plug taps that power and brings it to an appliance. You need both to get your radio to turn on. Look around and you’ll see that the universe is filled with such examples of harmony.

  • Ted D

    I’m here. ;-)

    Like I said, I feel like I’ve gotten better information here about my particular situation than anywhere else. I can’t say that on occasion it doesn’t sting, but I’ll live. I’m tired of being stressed over this stuff.

  • Kuraje

    Did you find her Stateside?

    I find myself taking on the mental attitude of Danger & Play (http://dangerandplay.wordpress.com/) with American & Americanized women.

    Some resist it and eventually settle into the dynamic as it becomes routine but actively resist it being labeled exactly what it is thanks to how unpopular feminism has made it to be anything less than Ms. Independent Need Man For Nothing.

    Sure would be nice to just run into women who happily endorse it from the onset.

    Who’s spreading this men like a challenge garbage?

  • Samuel

    I think when Dominance is properly presented, even a staunch feminist can appreciate the appeal.

    They do, in fact, want the boy to be the boy… but they don’t want to be led by an incompetent. If a man is properly Dominant per his inherent nature, the woman will typically respond to it beautifully with submission, and it is as natural as birds building a nest. It is INSTINCT.

    the only time a woman needs training to be submissive to a man is if she has already been confused by lies that say her instincts are wrong, and needs the lies stripped away, and inspiration of a strong man.

    Many women who reject male leadership simply do so because they have never met a man capable of it who inspired them.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I mentioned on the other thread that I dropped some dominance game on a chick last weekend when I told her what we were doing, when were going to do it, and also what to wear.

    She shows up at my house, hair and makeup are all done, but she has to change into her dress (she lives with her conservative parents who probably wouldn’t appreciate a skin tight black and pink number that barely covers her ass cheeks)

    She comes out with the dress on. I look at her, cock my head to the side and ask “Is that the dress we talked about?”

    She gets a horrified look on her face and says “Uh oh…..”

    I honestly couldn’t remember if that was the one, I just remember she looked hot in it so I reassured her that what she was wearing was fine but I honestly think she would have driven 20 minutes back to her house to get the right dress had it not met my approval.

    Chick DESPERATELY want to submit to a worthy man. Men these days don’t realize how big of a factor dominance plays in attraction, but it is huge, and probably more important than ever considering the how masculine our women have become. Dominance to women is what a nice rack, a perfect ass and smooth, creamy skin are to a man- intoxicating.

  • YOHAMI

    When it’s about behavior, if you “explain” things to her, in hopes she does something, the verbal > action feels to her like manipulation. It doesnt matter if you are explaining that 2+2 is 4 so therefore she needs to bring more money. She wont get it. She’ll extract emotional content from it.

    Male talking to her so she does something = verbal coercion frame. She will feel negative emotions, and respond to the negative emotions, framing you and her negative emotions as the same thing.

    And you only wanted her to bring more money because that’s the math… who would have thought that explaining it to her before asking her to do something would cause all that trouble?

    Yes, it’s stupid. So.

    Instead tell her what to do. “Bring more money” dont say why, dont justify, dont explain, dont look for her approval. She might need more information, in which case, she might ask. If she asks, it’s ok to tell her why, but even here it works better not to tell her why but to tease her about it, then repeat the command.

    See. Women are wired to be attracted to the commander / king / most powerful male on the tribe.

    How’s your king going to talk to you, when he needs something from you? is he going to explain in detail everything and why he wants stuff, so you can agree and use your own will to decide if you follow or not?… or is he just going to tell you what he needs, and expect you to implicitly trust him and do what he says?

    Actually, who makes a better leader?

    So. Women have this thing wired in as a screening mechanism, and multiplied by a x10 emotional tingler. The dude acting like a King is a magnet that causes orgasms and infuses security just by speaking. The dude acting like a follower produces a strong negative reaction like when you want to vomit, plus anger and contempt.

    I learned this, and stopped asking or reasoning or trying to reach concensus. Waste of time. I tell people what to do. Which also forces me to be sure of what I want and to be aware of my needs and my surroundings, since Im having the final (and only) word on the matter, and if Im wrong I pay for the consequences. So I tell people what to do, and it comes with extra confidence: I know what I want. It works wonders with men, with groups, with kids.

    But it’s just magical with women.

  • Nutz

    “There is no such thing as egalitarian equality. Even for homosexuals, there is a dominant and submissive partner. It doesn’t make one an evil controller, nor the other a complacent doormat, it’s just that someone has to drive the car. Either you trust that person to drive or you take that control away from them. Someone has to be the boy.”

    This is exactly what Athol Kay talked about over at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/blog when he came up with the Captain & First Officer analogy of how his marriage works. He’s Picard and his wife is Riker. That sounds weird, but in all actuality it works well and I’ve seen it first hand in almost every successful long-term relationship where both people were happy.

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2010/03/dominance-and-submission-in-marriage-the-captain-and-first-officer-model/

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2011/12/learning-captain-and-first-officer/

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/01/the-conscious-captain-and-first-officer-relationship/

  • Ted D

    “When it’s about behavior, if you “explain” things to her, in hopes she does something, the verbal > action feels to her like manipulation. It doesnt matter if you are explaining that 2+2 is 4 so therefore she needs to bring more money. She wont get it. She’ll extract emotional content from it.”

    Yep, This is what I struggle with. I still cannot fathom how women do this, but you are absolutely correct in that explaining to them just doesn’t work. They can take something that contains absolutely NO emotional content, and somehow get upset by it.

    Women are supposedly the “communicators” of humanity, so why is it that explaining to them and/or rationally talking sends them in a downward spiral? It’s as if the actual content of the message is irrelevant, the only important thing is how hearing the message makes her feel. That makes NO sense at all, but that was your point. ;-)

    “So I tell people what to do, and it comes with extra confidence: I know what I want. It works wonders with men, with groups, with kids.
    But it’s just magical with women.”

    And I’ve always known this about men, groups, and children, but somehow the fact that it works on women was totally obliterated from my consciousness.

  • Stingray

    They can take something that contains absolutely NO emotional content, and somehow get upset by it.

    It’s a skill. ;) This may be a hamster spin, so take this for what it’s worth (maybe nothing, guys if I’m wrong please say so). We take a conversation above and see it as having done something wrong in your eyes. Two contradictory emotions spring up: “We were displeasing/I am my own person so it should not matter I was displeasing.” Irrational rationalizations ensue. They will make perfect sense to her and absolutely be irrelevant to you or the situation.

    Women are supposedly the “communicators” of humanity,

    Nah, we are the talkers of humanity. Big difference.

  • Ted D

    Right. I often forget that “communicator” is PC speak for “can’t stop talking.”

  • YOHAMI

    Ah. That too. If you tell her she’s doing something wrong, or, worse, if you dont tell her but she assumes youre saying she did something wrong but you’re not even frontal enough to say it… she´ll feel bad.

    Bad, because doing something wrong really means there’s something wrong with her.

    Which makes you very mean for pointing that out. Why are you so mean?

    No seriously who do you think you are to make her feel that way? what’s wrong with you? and now what are you going to do to alleviate all the drama you caused?

    Ah. Women.

    I have fell in the trap of considering a few women “smart enough” so I could just be frank and tell them straight face what they are doing wrong. And, I was wrong. Facepalm.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Excellent post, Yohami.

    Women think and communicate on an entirely different plane. Men, being the rational sex just cannot appreciate the complexity of it all.

    That’s why I have long maintained that men who are successful with women are the ones who are able to communicate on their level. Make them relate to the content. Make them feel the message. A rational communication style doesn’t work. With women it is all about the sizzle, not the steak.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Ted D, read this:
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/imagination/

    This is the single greatest failing of average frustrated chumps; they vomit out everything about themselves, divulging the full truth of themselves to women in the mistaken belief that women desire that truth as a basis for qualifying for their intimacy.

    Learn this now: Women NEVER want full disclosure.

    Nothing is more self-satisfying for a woman than to think she’s figured a Man out based solely on her mythical feminine intuition (i.e. imagination).

    When a man overtly confirms his character, his story, his value, etc. for a woman, the mystery is dispelled and the bio-chemical rush she enjoyed from her imaginings, her suspicions, her self-confirmations about you are GONE. AFCs classically do exactly this on the first date and wonder why they get LJBF’d promptly after it – this is why. Familiarity is anti-seductive. Nothing kills Game, lust and libido like comfortable familiarity. Despite their common bleating filibuster tactics, women don’t want to be comfortable with a potential (or proven) sex partner, they need their imaginations stoked to be excited, aroused and anxious to want sex with a potential partner.

    Then read this:
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/dijo-sin-hablando/

    Always remember, women care less about the content of what’s being communicated and more about the context (the how) of what’s being communicated. Never buy the lie that good communication is the key to a good relationship with out considering how and what you communicate. Women are naturally solipsistic. Your ‘feelings’ aren’t important to her until you make them important to her.

    Law 9: Win Through Your Actions, Never through Argument
    Any momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory: The resentment and ill will you stir up is stronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion. It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions, without saying a word.

    Demonstrate, do not explicate.

  • King A (Matthew King)

    Ted D wrote:

    I still cannot fathom how women do this, but you are absolutely correct in that explaining to them just doesn’t work.

    Have you never had any interaction with children? That’s how to “fathom” it.

    Comparing a woman to a child is not demeaning. She is no child, she is an adult, with reasoning capacities and an ability to take responsibility. (Woman: “How do you write women so well?” Melvin: “I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.”) But relative to her male counterpart, she is more childish, and that has to be taken into account in this culture where we must officially pretend the empress has clothes on.

    The good news is, reform is simply a matter of “frame.” Act the part, be the part. You already feel it in your bones — the bones not denatured by your feminist upbringing — that this is the right order of things, and so does she. If you have entered the relationship under different pretenses, begin enforcing these new ones. Gradually, if the situation calls for it; starkly, if you can get away with it.

    One area where command-and-control is most easily broached is during fucking. There your male and female natures are (literally) nakedly on display, and where hair-tugging and ass-slapping (see above, “Be The Boy”) can most naturally reacquaint both of you to the difference between your sexual souls.

    If and when she rejects your necessary amendments to the contract, give her wide berth to get the fuck out. Develop other female challengers to her presumptuousness, let her realize you have options other than her. Do not budge on this essential position. If she is at all a woman anymore she will shape up and, someday, be openly grateful for your suddenly discovered assertiveness. If not, she is late-stage feminist trash with no hope for redemption (except by those of us who have long been unabashed about being men).

    Matt

  • YaReally

    “It’s as if the actual content of the message is irrelevant, the only important thing is how hearing the message makes her feel.”

    Yep. PUAs call this “change her mood, not her mind.” it’s why nice guys can’t “convince” a girl he’s perfect for her by listing off his achievements and pointing out all the rational reasons they’d be a good couple.

    It applies to all sorts of stuff, from arguing with your wife to pulling girls from a nightclub.

    “let’s go get food”
    “I can’t”
    “joke joke tease tease”
    “giggle giggle”
    “let’s go get food”
    “okay!!!”

    Next time you feel like you’re frustratingly banging your head against the wall debating something with a woman (tho why are you wasting your time doing that in the first place??) re-read what you’re about to post or re-think what you’re about to say and ask yourself “am I trying to change her mind or her mood?”

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Learn this now: Women NEVER want full disclosure.
    Nothing is more self-satisfying for a woman than to think she’s figured a Man out based solely on her mythical feminine intuition (i.e. imagination).

    Last Friday when I was out with the chick I mentioned above, she complained that I never ask her to do anything. The reason why I don’t is another subject altogether but toward the end of the discussion she says to me “You’re really hard to read, you know that?” but what she was really saying was “You’re doing it right, keep it up”.

    There is nothing you can do or say as a man that can compare to what a woman can fabricate in her mind. Let the hamster do the heavy lifting for you.

  • LionSoul

    It’s true that some men are just not meant to be dominant. Those are the guys I call betas at heart… or just plain lazy. ;)

    You can only pretend for so long and then it just becomes too much to fake. Women can see through it pretty darn well. Not all men should produce, you know–just playing(or not).

    That’s why I always question the whole PUA thing. I mean, if you were a truly dominant man… would you need to practice lines, wear stupid get-ups, or worry about ‘negs’. No. I sure don’t. I just see a bunch of pretenders who get numbers.

    Yet, being dominant, is not an interaction, a conversation, a text exchange, or even the first time you bang the chick. It’s a everyday thing. You must eat, drink, and breathe it. You must be the ‘king’, as Yohami pointed out.

    It has to be a part of you in EVERYTHING you do–job, friends, family, and girlfriend.

    I’m sorry to say… some dudes just ‘get it’ and some dudes just don’t. There’s a reason why most people who live life are sheep. Not all men are meant to rule; just take a look at history and the princes who were thrusted into kingship. No matter how much they were taught since birth, they could not be the ruler their father was.

    All I can say is this…

    The first step is not giving a shit anymore… not caring what life wants from you. Living life on your terms is where true dominance is born.

  • Suz

    YES!!!!
    Knee-jerk assumption of guilt collides head-on with knee-jerk rebellion against it. We can’t handle the (yes, totally irrelevant) conflict, so we dump it on him. If we could manage to NOT assume that criticism is being applied, we’d have no guilt or rebellion. But we’ve never learned how to assess anything calmly, we just go off.

  • Philalethes

    Just a quick vocabulary note: Check the difference between “compliment” and “complement”. They’re entirely different words; you used the first (and a derivative) several times when I believe you meant the second. (A common error in our semi-literate times, like the confusion between “lie” and “lay”.)

  • LionSoul

    Also, keep in mind that it makes a huge difference in your ability to maintain a LTR. Yeah, you can bang chicks(pump and dump) over a month, but if you want a successful relationship for the long term… you need to be the leader. You need to be naturally decisive, sure of yourself, and willing to keep things new(for yourself–and in turn, for her).

    If you are fake and not truly dominant, she will eventually sniff it out and move on. It’s just in her programming.

  • Johnycomelately

    I’ve lost faith in the masculinity of the younger generation, I just got sacked from a soccer coaching gig after one training session, get this, because training was too hard and I swore too much!

  • YOHAMI

    “Yet for all the domineering and all the derision she was so comfortable in laying on Dave, she would rip into anyone who would think he was less than a man. ”

    She needs to nag him and demean him, that’s how she controls him.

    However when anyone else attacks him, she sees it as an attack on HERSELF, hence she defends him.

    He’s a tool, but he’s her tool. If other people can attack or can gain control over the dude she’s in danger.

  • 141

    Women are eternal teenagers. It’s like their periods keep them in puberty and then when they hit menopause, Boom! they finally become adults.

  • T and A Man

    Hi Rollo,

    Again you’re a class commentator. There is one thing I would like to raise.

    Much of what you say is, in my comprehension anyway, descriptive, and not much in the way of prescriptive. Now you do offer wonderful insights but the general male mind does learn better with accompanying prescriptive inputs.

    Your Iron rule #1 here is obvious to those who have taken the red pill. My question relating to this one is in a relationship dynamic, particuarly pre-red pill AFC’s, is the dominant/submissive heirachy reversible with game? Or can an AFC change the dynamic after swallowing the red pill?

    IF so, can you offer some prescriptive measures?

  • Jorgez

    This brought back memories of the time I first successfully passed a shit test.

    Years ago, living with my first serious girlfriend, I was thunderstruck when she started freaking out on me in a nasty, irrational way. Such behavior on her part could only mean that I had unknowingly committed some sort of heinous crime against her, right? Some grievous offense that demanded immediate apologies and reparations, even if I couldn’t fanthom what it was.

    Of course, the more I placated her, the more I caved in, the more vicious it got. One day over breakfast, as she was starting up her routine, I was so fed up a rush of energy led me to respond in an authoritative, commanding tone telling her to cut it out. Nothing abusive or out of control, mind you – but sternly and firmly. She blinked at me a few times and finished her breakfast without saying much.

    Two minutes later, she is in the next room puttering about and singing an aria to herself in the highest of spirits, almost dancing around the room (she had studied opera).

    So, whenever I think “shit test”, I think “woman gayfully singing an aria” (once the shit-testing tendencies have been successfully repealed).

    However, I am sad to say that at the time, this action/reaction just puzzled me and I never thought of repeating my performance. I put it down to some bizarre rift in the space-time continuum. Metaphorically speaking, my blood was to splatter the wall many times before I finally made my escape from the relationship.

  • Ted D

    King A – “But relative to her male counterpart, she is more childish, and that has to be taken into account in this culture where we must officially pretend the empress has clothes on.”

    This is the “lie” I was talking about on the other thread. I don’t understand why we have to “pretend” when it seems obvious that equality is BS. We are working madly to figure out how to “work” the system instead of calling out all the crap and letting the chips fall where they will. I get that on an individual level, if I want to be in a happy relationship I need to do XYZ. But why can’t we start calling this what it is, a fairy tale, and instead start working towards a society that recognizes our differences and provides proper outlets to USE our nature for the better. I HATE having to pretend I feel like woman are equal. Hell, I don’t think every man I meet is MY equal, no way in hell every woman will make that cut.

    YaReally – “Next time you feel like you’re frustratingly banging your head against the wall debating something with a woman (tho why are you wasting your time doing that in the first place??) re-read what you’re about to post or re-think what you’re about to say and ask yourself “am I trying to change her mind or her mood?””

    If I’m actually arguing, of course I’m trying to change her mind. Again, her “mood” isn’t my problem, or at least I used to believe it wasn’t. It seems I’m sadly mistaken, and I must be responsible for HER mental condition as well as my own. I don’t care much about “moods”, I care about facts and data. My goal is to change minds, who gives a shit about how that makes people feel? I’d rather people be pissed off or upset and know the truth of a thing, than happily trot along clueless. To me part of being a responsible adult IS knowing the truth, and dealing with it head on. How I “feel” about work, politics, religion, or alien invasion has NOTHING to do with actually knowing about the subject, and making educated decisions based on my knowledge.

    Are there honestly no reasonably logical woman that can grasp this concept?

  • Ted D

    GLC – “Women think and communicate on an entirely different plane. Men, being the rational sex just cannot appreciate the complexity of it all.”

    But that’s just it. Women are completely capable of being rational, we just give them a free pass by allowing them to be emotionally bipolar all the time. I want to be in a relationship with a rational, intelligent, reasoning person.

    It seems that unless I want to be in a relationship with another man, I’m asking for too much…

  • Ted D

    I’ve been called into HR for making a female computer tech feel “uncomfortable” for “making the work room feel like a men’s locker room”. and the worst part is, just a few days before, some of us guys were complaining that we had to be on our BEST behavior when she was around, so she wasn’t even hearing the worst of it.

    And once upon a time I told a female co-worker to stop being such an emotional twit and think with her head, and that got me written up because somehow the statement was sexist. I asked my boss to explain how telling someone to stop being emotional was sexist, but this thread seems to indicate that “emotional” and “female” are interchangeable words…

  • Stingray

    My goal is to change minds, who gives a shit about how that makes people feel?

    To a woman feeling is the truth. That is why you must manipulate the feelings before she is able to grasp the truth. You are still stuck on thinking that men and women think in the same manner. We do not. Feelings rule. Manipulate the feelings and you can bring her around to the truth. But stop trying to think that logic is going to go anywhere. It won’t until you can bring the feelings around first. Even then it may not work.

  • Ted D

    “Feelings rule.”

    and that has to be just about the most irresponsible way to live I can think of.

    OK, so lets just say I don’t feel much. How exactly do I manipulate how she “feels” when I don’t “feel” any particular way on the subject? Isn’t this an awful lot like asking me to read her mind? Change her feelings?

    Yes, I have feelings. But I ignore them most of the time, because frankly following my “feelings” is always a losing battle. So as a person that is not very “in tough” with how he feels, how am I supposed to figure out how SHE feels, and then act accordingly?

  • King A (Matthew King)

    Ted D wrote: “I don’t understand why we have to ‘pretend’ when it seems obvious that equality is BS. We are working madly to figure out how to ‘work’ the system instead of calling out all the crap and letting the chips fall where they will.”

    Some of us do not pretend. We are still faceless-pseudonymous whispers in ghettoes right now, but word is circulating, and you are lucky enough to have landed in one of the forums speaking blunt truth. The culture at large is perpetuating the fantasy, but the commissars are tired, aging, enervating, dying. Cultural change is glacial — the once-revolutionaries will cling to their illusions until they die, but they will all die, and legacy will remain to fight legacy. Their legacy is weak in that it is predicated on a lie about nature. So it takes generations to turn the proverbial aircraft carrier around. Until then, patience and faith and small deliberate steps, beginning with the relationship with your wife.

    You are at war with the one you sleep with. The sexes are in a simmering state of enmity. “You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” You must recognize this state of belligerency and act accordingly until they surrender unconditionally. You cannot have “a separate peace”: her pledges of fidelity are subject to the stresses of the culture which have militated against the male-female alliance (and therefore, family) for over a century. And, “I write a woman’s oaths in water.” In short, bros before hos.

    I was blessed with many brothers: brotherhood is my blood. Lovely and submissive and allied as their wives/girlfriends are, there is not a doubt where their loyalty ultimately rests. Our brotherhood forms the mind frame of our lives, and the rest is subordinate, including their new families. The great good news, however, is that this rock-solid foundation has provided the example and the structure through which their love for others may flourish. We love our wives, fuckmates, girlfriends, and children better for loving our brothers first. Every other paradigm is false, misleading. Lovey-dovey romance, temporary infatuations, escapist hedonism-materialism, the lies of equality, none match the enduring philos adelphos. “No greater love has a man than this, to lay down his life for his friends.”

    I am sure the thought of fighting this thing to the finish is wearisome for a man of your age, and it’s just not fairrrrrr!!! to be a war baby, born into the continuous conflict that came before us and will continue after us. But there is not much choice in it, and some day it will end. So show me your war face.

    Matt

  • King A (Matthew King)

    Woman gaily singing an aria in the shower is a classic. Pithy, true, and memorable. An icon of a lesson about rightly reordering the hierarchy. The five senses harmonized with the knowledge intuited in our gut, the truth that shivers her pudendal nerve. I love it.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Basically, yes.

    You sound like an intelligent introvert. Ted. That’s not an insult….I am the same kind of person. But that means that your brain seeks reason and meaning at an even higher level than most people, and you also have a lower capacity to take on other people’s shit. It sucks the energy out of you to have to deal with the burdens of a relationship.

    Unfortunately today’s society doesn’t make it easy for guys like us. But you have to adapt if you want to be successful. Polite society would like for you to believe that the mating game is all about mystical love and gummy bears, but nothing could be further from the truth. Below the surface it is an ugly, cut throat game that you either know how to play, you learn how to play, or you get screwed.

  • Ted D

    According to the tests posted at HUS, I am an INTJ. Until earlier this year, I didn’t even know this stuff existed, let alone that I was some “type” of person. But, what you describe above is 100% true for me. Taking on people’s “shit” does indeed suck me dry of energy to keep my own shit in order. I have few real friends because I can’t afford to take on “needy” people, and i expect them to take care of their own shit and only call me when they need backup. I kinda expected the same thing from a mate, but clearly that isn’t how it works.

    So that means learn to play, lose, or don’t play at all. I never understood the MGTOW thing until now. They’ve chosen not to play. I can’t say I blame them, being that the deck truly is stacked against men from the word go.

  • Coy

    Interestingly, I just shifted the power dynamic with a girl i was orbiting.(“i know , i’m a recent red pill guy and she plays the good girl game”).So, I see her at work today, she gets nervous … runs away with a lame excuse.Minutes later I find a text on my phone:
    “Please don’t judge me.I had a talk with my ex.I am not comfortable discussing this issue with you …blah blah”(i asked her why she looks dead the other day.very casual.)
    I get shocked by the language.Considering I have been friend zoned by her before and I find out that shes told a mutual “I am not uncomfortable around him(me) but i feel strange” .
    I have no clue whats happening.Any explanations.Its hard to deal with things as I change my personality.

  • Ted D

    “I am sure the thought of fighting this thing to the finish is wearisome for a man of your age,”

    Fighting a war? Not so bad. Trying to relearn everything I believed about relationships, women, and life in general? Well, that saying about teaching old dogs new tricks has a kernel of truth to it. But I’m not so old that I can’t learn.

    My real bone of contention with this is thinking of my SO as the ‘enemy’. How the hell am I supposed to treat her decently while viewing her as the bad guy? I don’t give people i consider enemies the time of day, let alone try to be decent with them, and yet you suggest that I knowingly “sleep with the enemy” here. I asked Rollo about this once at HUS, but he probably didn’t see it.

    How do you sleep with the enemy every night? If it is really a war between the sexes, how can you truly trust a woman to do what is best for you and your relationship with her? And if you can’t trust her, how can you call it a relationship at all?

  • YOHAMI

    Ted,

    “how can you truly trust a woman to do what is best for you and your relationship with her? And if you can’t trust her, how can you call it a relationship at all?”

    Trust is important. But trust doesnt mean she will do what’s best for you, nor that you will do what’s best from her. All you can trust is nature.

    Nature means she will do, move to, and mold to, whatever “feels good” for her. Just like you will do, move to and mold to whatever seems to be “the right thing to do”.

    In a relationship you both are attracted to each other, benefit from each other, and try to get something from each other.

    If you view trust like: I want to trust that this woman will consider my boundaries and never attempt something that is “wrong”… sorry, you can trust that. Trust isnt like that.

    Because for her the priority is the “feel good” part. Taking your boundaries and imaginary rules in consideration? that’s too abstract. She’s not equipped to do that. What she can do is do what feels good. If that crosses your boundaries, oh well. She wont understand what it means, until she understands how it feels.

    On the same hand, trust for her would be that you never ever make her feel bad. Now process that. You cant promise it, right? because your priority is to make things right, which will conflict with feelings, because, well, we cant indulge in feelings at expenses of doing what whatever the cause we’re following tells us needs to be done.

    In other words. You’re going to be doing the right thing and fixing stuff. And you’re often going to make her feel bad. And she’s going to be doing whatever feels good and making an environment where she can survive, often crossing your boundaries and doing the wrong thing.

    You cant expect her to do the “right thing” more than she can expect you to never make her “feel bad”.

    So all you can trust is nature.

    Knowing how this works, you can work on the game and figure out a way for everyone to get what they need.

    No woman (that Im aware of) is equipped to do that. Because taking everyone in consideration and being far at expenses of personal feelings, doesnt feel good. It’s an unpleasant mechanic. Simple.

    So it’s up to the man to figure out what’s the right thing. And then assert the right thing in a stable manner, without volatile emotional investment, just like the defacto, consistent, non reactive, stable set of rules. And to assert them unequivocally. When the woman feels that, she knows she can trust him: his game is stable, and she can mold to it to minimize her own pain and get the most out of it: she´ll feel good.

    If the man doesnt figure it out and doesnt establish the set of rules, then the woman wont feel safe, wont feel stable, wont feel good, and will complain about EVERYTHING, like a baby on pain, until she’s been taken care of. She wont complain because she wants to be obeyed etc. She doesnt want to solve it all. She just want’s her needs covered. And for that she needs the proper environment. One where someone else steps ups and takes the lead, and grants her the external stability she needs.

    So you can picture that as a war. It isnt a war. It’s just not a fairy tale.

  • Ted D

    I was only calling it ‘war’ because King A called it such. I’ve never considered it that way.

    Your answer is truly depressing to me. I really want her to have my back, and this implies I can never count on that. If it doesn’t feel good, she can’t be expected to do it. I can’t count on her to be an equal partner, nor will she be logical and reasonable. And I can’t count on her to do the right thing…

    What exactly IS the purpose of being in a relationship again? I’m not trying to be a smart ass, but I’m beginning to lose site of exactly why I’m bothering at this point under the weight of reality here. For all of this, I get easy access to sex and ? I”m not saying I don’t like my SO, but holy shit I don’t know if I like anyone on this planet enough to deal with so much stuff for so little return. You talk about the relationship as a transaction of sorts, I don’t see what I’m getting that I can’t get elsewhere for less hassle. Companionship? I can get that from my friends. Sex? plenty of ways to get that. Love? I don’t even fucking know what that means at this point. So I’ll be the selfish prick and ask: what’s in it for me?

  • YOHAMI

    Relationships: a nest to have kids.

  • YaReally

    “If I’m actually arguing, of course I’m trying to change her mind.”

    You’re already starting out on the wrong foot by arguing with her.

    Replace “3 year old” with “woman”.

  • YaReally

    “and that has to be just about the most irresponsible way to live I can think of.”

    Yep.

  • YaReally

    “I kinda expected the same thing from a mate, but clearly that isn’t how it works.”

    Correct. Now what will you do with this information?

  • Ted D

    Well to be completely honest right now I’m evaluating exactly why i want/need a relationship with a woman at all. I already have children, and I have NO desire to make more, so I’m really asking myself what I’m getting out of this to make it worth while. I always assumed that what I was getting is a fully functioning partner to help me get where I’m going, but this is starting to sound like nothing but additional baggage.

    For right now I can’t honestly say what I’m going to do with the info. I have it, and now I need to decide what it means to me.

  • YOHAMI

    “I was getting is a fully functioning partner to help me get where I’m going”

    No, you get a passanger with whom you share the fruits of your journey.

  • Sasha

    Ted,

    You can’t trust a woman to the degree that her “feel good” comes from her unsatisfied child needs. When those arise sharply, you gotta lay down the law. withstand the storm, etc.

    When woman’s “feel good” came from a higher place (from G-d), it has always nourished me even if it came in a form of testing (as it only strengthened whatever my resolve was).

    It’s very important the discern these two because the former is pretty much the price to pay for the access to the latter. Ironically, the less of the former, the more of the latter.

    The easiest way for me to conceptualize this is to think back to my mom. Whenever HER childish needs were no satisfied by her father/my father and she didn’t own them/wasn’t aware of them, they went my way and became my weak points – the places were my boundaries are leaky.

    Learning to very consciously cater to those unconscious, childish feminine needs is a part of becoming a man. The way to deal with those parts is by building yourself into an “male-parent”. You wouldn’t have to be that all the time, but it’s an essential skill – just like being a “mother” is an essential (part-time) ability of any woman.

  • Sasha

    Ted,

    You are not getting a fully functioning partner because you aren’t one yourself yet. Once you figure out what YOU want from a woman (children, sexual polarity, support for *your own* journey), you can find a woman who wants to join you – not as a passenger but as a “working” part of your crew. You’ll have to learn how to attend to needs of your crew, delegate responsibilities and deal with their humanity.

    Viewing women as non-working passengers on your journey of life is a way to overlook their life-giving (in the most general sense) potential. But pick your women wisely because you’ll have to deal with whatever physical/emotional/mental/spiritual “children” you’ll produce.

  • YOHAMI

    Sasha, you might be right. I cant tell for sure, all I´ve seen is passengers or “complete take overs” women. Note: if she’s part of your crew and youre the captain, she´s still a passanger on your ship.

    Ted´s premise, or beta´s premise, disney premise, is to get a full, half partner that joins you on your life journey, on something that is not just to provide for a family. I havent seen that happening anywhere.

  • Captain Action

    When learning PUA/ game skills, one of the main practices that gets drilled into a newbie is to aproach, aproach, aproach.
    For a beta guy in a LTR learning Game, what should his main practice be to learn Alpha behavior? What’s repeatable and adaptable?

  • Rollo Tomassi

    She’s a passenger who’s got one hand on the wheel, one hand on the shifter and her foot on top of his on the accelerator pedal.

  • YOHAMI

    She´s got a hand on the wheel and a foot on the accelerator. Cool. Does she use that share of power to grant safety for herself, or does she use it to help you get where you wanted to go before she got her hand on the wheel, and her foot on the pedal?

  • Stingray

    Rollo,

    I had a comment go into moderation, I assume because it contained links. Thought you would want to know.

  • Ted D

    Sasha – sadly what Yohami said is true. And this is why the Captain and First Officer setup tweaks me the wrong way. I was never looking for a passenger. I didn’t intend for MY dreams to become HER dreams. I was looking for a woman to join my “life journey” for more than simply raising a family. Surely I wanted her to be part of my plans, but because SHE wanted the same things, not just because *I* want them and she is a willing follower. I want someone to help me figure out how to get where I want to go, not cheer me on while I do all the heavy lifting.

    I don’t want a cheerleader, I want an offensive coach. I don’t need moral support, I need someone that can help me figure shit out. I have always viewed relationships like a small business, and I expected my wife/mate to be my business partner.

    That doesn’t appear to be possible, so I’m at a loss for the purpose of a relationship at all outside of having children.

  • Sasha

    Yohami,

    I’ve read tons of your posts and I can semi-confidently say that much of your view on women (and life in general) stemmed from your powerlessness in front of your mother (a.k.a. the world) growing up.

    You burning desire for fame is a result of being non-recognized and squashed by her. Your perception of interaction with women being full of power-grabs seems to stem from power-struggle with her. How do you relate to her now?

    ******

    There is a big difference between member of the crew and a passenger. Captain is also part of the crew and he is serving the ship/cargo/destination – not himself and often he doesn’t even own the ship. In other words – the ship is not yours.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    In Ted’s case it’s because she doesn’t trust him to drive the car safely or in the direction she wants to go.

  • Sasha

    Ted,

    You want an offensive coach? You are getting offensive coaching from women in the realm of emotions. Your emotional body seems to be severely stiffed and underdeveloped – squashed between your over-active mind and your body. You are getting exactly what you want. IS that what you want?

  • Sasha

    Ted,

    Have you had business partners/offensive coaches in the past? Did you fuck them? No? Then don’t expect to have good sex/flow of man-woman love with a woman if you want her to be your mostly “business partner” and “coach”.

    MGTOW is a way to separate oneself from “the mother” (and she repeatedly comes into your life as women) in order to figure out one’s direction and a way to relate to women as a man to a woman – not as a boy to a mother.

  • YOHAMI

    Sasha, you’re right about my foundation, but.

    “Your perception of interaction with women being full of power-grabs seems to stem from power-struggle with her.”

    Actually, my perception that women are full of power grabs, is that women seem to be full of power grabs. Just watch them on any interaction.

    But if you’re saying my bias is responsible for that perception, show me how they are not power grabbing and self serving?

  • Sasha

    Yohami,

    I think we had a similar convo at HUS. I think you only see women full of power-grabs because that’s your basic/starting imprint. You have emotional blinders/closure to the rest and it’s “repetition compulsion” for you. That’s why I asked about your current rl with your mom. My experience can open up your mental space, but it’s your emotional body that is key.

    Myself. I’ve experienced a mix of power-grabs and very loving and supportive (of me) attitudes from women. Women whose doors were always open to me if I needed, women who cooked for me, women who were ready to commit cash to my well-being/path, women who were ready to literally do anything I wanted sexually.

    To be frank, they weren’t serving ME at those moments. They were serving something divine through me. They were getting something from me, but it was a loving effortless exchange – stuff that you describe “Disney Fairy-tale”.

    Power-grabs mostly came from women I penetrated deeper than I should have – mostly physical, but also emotionally and less so mentally. They are real and they are draining. I’ve avoided/ignored power-grabs as much as I could and concentrated on finding source of loving flow. I find it when I’m solid on my own path. I am not at the moment.

    The reason I bring up “the mother” is that the biggest power-grabs in my life came from my mom at the moments of my weakness – the moments my power dipped close to hers.

  • YOHAMI

    Sasha,

    Yep that´s how we started talking.

    “To be frank, they weren’t serving ME at those moments. They were serving something divine through me. They were getting something from me, but it was a loving effortless exchange – stuff that you describe “Disney Fairy-tale”.”

    That matches my experience with women since I’ve been in alpha mode, including my ex. It’s how they surrender to the stronger male force.

    Which is a power grab. An effortless and divine one and mutually beneficial, but still the same mechanics.

    “Disney fairy tale” would be: they join you and stay with you and care for you, no matter if you´re indecisive, weak, and get lost. They support you in your vulnerabilities as you support them in theirs.

    So, in the good, and in the bad, in sickness, and health.

    Instead of pleasant and sweet when you’re the shit, and nasty and bratty when you’re not the shit.

  • Sasha

    “It’s how they surrender to the stronger male force.

    Which is a power grab.”

    But it’s not. It’s like calling all sex rape. Grab has a connotation of a forceful reach, an adversarial “give me a bigger piece of the pie”. What I describe enlarged that pie (and yes, she had a piece of it) and never felt grabby.

    “So, in the good, and in the bad, in sickness, and health.”

    A loyal crew will stay with a failing/sick captain for a long time – in sickness and in health. But they have places to reach themselves, so you can’t blame them for jumping ship. I’d want them to jump ship/take control if I lost that ability myself.

    All women in my life (including mom and sis) stayed with me through thick and thin. It was always me who bailed the crew when things got rough – partially because I haven’t consciously chosen them to be a part of my crew.

    “Instead of pleasant and sweet when you’re the shit, and nasty and bratty when you’re not the shit.”

    A version of this will always be the case – and would a captain want it to be any other way? How else would he know that he is not at his best? Nasty and bratty (and “the shit”) is low-level but the spirit of feedback stays the same.

    I’d want to pick a woman who most of the time was my biggest cheer-leader and worshiper. But when I’m off-course for too long, fell asleep at the wheel or approaching an iceberg – I’d want her to skillfully smack me/wake me up. I had only glimpses/episodic experiences of this but it sufficed.

  • Scruggs

    In my marriage, I felt the power and leadership slipping away from me little by little when we started having kids – two girls. While I still have the authority for our big decisions, my leadership has waned because our household is run by my wife, and our family’s schedule is dictated by the kids’ activities. My wife has the mommy network, she makes the play-dates, she is involved in the girl scouts, coordinates swim lessons, dance classes, buys their clothes, and gets them where they need to go all while I work. She shops for groceries, plans the meals, cooks the meals, cleans the house, does the laundry, etc. I make good money and take care of the man stuff (house, yard, cars, repairs) and I have my guy friends and main hobby (a sport), so I have a life that is not completely work and home.

    This has eroded our relationship and my wife’s attraction to me, because of course, what I do for the family is not appreciated. In her mind, she does EVERYTHING. Moreover, I am adamant about being serious about my sport and my friends and this makes me selfish. To the central activities of the household, I am tangental in her mind. I feel that it’s impossible for me to assume leadership of the day-to-day household since it is driven by my daughters’ activities and I’m not here to do it anyway. I cannot even set the schedule on the weekends since this is pre-determined by what the kids have going on.

    Now, I am as involved as I can be with my daughters’ lives, working on homework with them, talking one-on-one with them every chance I get, disciplining them, and teaching them all I know. I am the parent they *want* to spend time with. I sit at the head of the table and all that, but my wife has been challenging my authority and always throwing in my face how she does everything and how selfish I am.

    If it weren’t for my sport and my friends, I’d be living the suburban nightmare. In all this discussion of male leadership with Ted, I don’t see how I can turn my situation around. I open this to the experts. Thoughts?

  • Scruggs

    I failed to mention that we employ a nanny whom I never see because my wife is a highly educated career women who also works fulltime (but whose career is going nowhere). She is supermom.

  • YOHAMI

    Sasha,

    “Grab has a connotation of a forceful reach, an adversarial “give me a bigger piece of the pie”.”

    Got it, for this argument let’s change “Grab” for “Gimme”. Forceful / graceful / friendly / adversarial are just modes of it.

    “All women in my life (including mom and sis) stayed with me through thick and thin.”

    Lucky dude. I´ve been consistently alone when I have to go through thick and thin. It has a LOT to do with the places Im going. It’s not all about gender.

    “I’d want to pick a woman who most of the time was my biggest cheer-leader and worshiper. But when I’m off-course for too long, fell asleep at the wheel or approaching an iceberg – I’d want her to skillfully smack me/wake me up.”

    Sure, me too. I mean, when things go bad, having feedback is great.

    My point there, again, is that when she “smacks you”, it has nothing to do with you, but everything to do about her. Not your needs, but hers.

  • Stingray

    Scruggs,

    That is tough, for both of you really. I am in the same boat as your wife as I do all the things you listed as well. She does do EVERYTHING . . . around the house. It is very difficult for wives to understand the day to day grind a man goes through as you all mostly don’t talk about it (I am not suggesting you do). Here’s the thing, though. Without what you provide, there would be NONE of that stuff. NONE OF IT. I would not know how to go about this, maybe one of the men could suggest something doable, but I would make it perfectly clear that all of things with your daughters and everything your wife has is because of what you have given them. Maybe some of it needs to simply go away.

    When an evening and weekend comes along that the girls are not doing something, you dictate what is going to happen. If the girls have something going on fairly benign, don’t allow it to happen. It will be family day. Your wife is going to be PISSED. But she needs to learn where her bacon comes from. It comes from you. I think the reigns need to be pulled in a bit with all of them or eventually, your girls are going to start treating you the same way your wife does.

    Absolutely DO NOT give up your other activities for yourself. If you decide to do this and if she responds positively to it (and only if) give her something nice (I have no idea what, a spa day, a pedicure, time to herself, etc.) to show that you appreciate what she is doing. But I would not do anything of this sort until it is perfectly clear that she appreciates what you do for her and your girls.

    Being a SAHM is not easy (the work itself is extremely easy) as it is mind drainingly dull sometimes. That is NOT your problem. It is hers to deal with. With the internet and libraries everywhere, it should be very easy for her to find a hobby to occupy her mind. This is something she should do right away. Also, those play dates can be dangerous. Women like to harp at them. Beware.

  • Hero

    Try the Agree and Amplify route. She thinks she does everything? Let her do everything. She thinks you are selfish. Try actually being selfish for a change (you don’t sound selfish at all).

    And when she brings it up tease her about it…
    Her: You are being selfish.
    You: Not even. Just wait until I buy my deep sea fishing boat!

    I know that might conflict with your idea about what it is to be a good dad but sometimes you have to break out of a routine you are in so that people around you can see just how important you have been.

    I feel you. I went through something similar when I had kids. I didn’t know how to lead in that situation so I let my wife do it. The results of my inaction weren’t good but with effort I’ve been able to turn it around.

    Think first of leading yourself and ask yourself “Is this what I want to be doing?” or “Is this how I want to live?”. If not, then don’t be afraid to change it up and be unpredictable.

  • Stingray

    Oops. Never mind the SAHM and the bacon stuff then. This is even harder, then. I leave this to the other men for the time being.

  • Sasha

    But the underlying mode of exchange makes all the difference! If not, then “all sex is rape”.

    Changing it for “Gimme” keeps the connotation. Maybe you have to be there to feel it out – but it’s more of a longing “I want you here – come when you can. If you can’t – it’s ok. Just feeling this longing is enough”. Just openness-no grabs.

    ******
    Actually, Yohami, I have been consistently alone when I go through thick and thin. “My women” are always there to help, but they rarely can. In fact, the weaker I get, the more they try to pry into my life, try to collapse me and suck me back into their lives.

    ******
    “when she “smacks you”, it has nothing to do with you, but everything to do about her. ”

    Not necessarily. She can be acting from her “needs”/past or she can be conducting some divine force through her. I’ve had same women respond to me from different places depending on the area of interaction. The difference is stark.

  • Hero

    Ted,

    I unplugged about a year and a half ago and I know it is not easy. I have not followed your story on HUS but I feel your frustration in the comments here.

    I want to encourage you to stop asking yourself “Why?”. Focus on what gets you results. The acceptance will come.

    Remember the stages of grief are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.

    You sound like you are in Anger. I’ve been there. Try to stop asking yourself “Why is society like this? Why are women like this? Why has feminism led us wrong?”

    Focus on making changes in your life and your relationship. Focus on what works NOT what you think SHOULD work. Take stock of your actions and the outcomes they produce. Don’t be afraid to say to yourself “That idea/belief doesn’t help me. I should let that go. I should do something different”

    I know this is tough because you might not be able to trust things, like fairy tale love, that you once believed in.

    Be easy on yourself and acknowledge that you are changing.

  • YOHAMI

    Sasha,

    “it’s more of a longing “I want you here – come when you can.”

    Gimme-longing-grab-take-receiving end, etc. It’s ying polarity.

    “Just openness-no grabs.”

    Desire? hunger? like I said, it can have connotations, be friendly, forceful, whatever. It’s still a vector that takes from the outside and puts “it” in.

    Do you agree with that? when you say they enlarge the pie, rather than just take / exchange for a piece of the pie – what do you mean?

    “In fact, the weaker I get, the more they try to pry into my life, try to collapse me and suck me back into their lives.”

    Sounds like my mom wanting me to go visit?

    My idea of staying with you means giving you the means, support, cheering, whatever you need to get stronger where you are and where you’re going. Not sure what you mean with the collapse / suck me back, but it doesnt sound like what you needed at the moment.

    “Not necessarily. She can be acting from her “needs”/past or she can be conducting some divine force through her.”

    I really like the divine force thing. I havent seen it, but I like it.

    The other, less divine, more mundane, but accessible, thing that women dont do but could, is to act not from their needs but from their understanding of the needs of the other person.

    In MY experience. I would blame it on myself, but look at the pile of similar cases, every guy here, ted, this new married guy´s story, athol kay, etc, red pill, etc. etc. Even Stingray.

    “I’ve had same women respond to me from different places depending on the area of interaction.”

    I know what this means in terms of alpha-beta. In terms of divine response, Im inexperienced.

  • Sasha

    Yes, it’s ying polarity, but it’s “divine” ying – it doesn’t come from biology, it doesn’t come from hunger, it doesn’t come from the past/karma. It comes from the beauty of the moment. I don’t know how to describe it better.

    The increased “pie” of love-energy is the result of the union of her ying and my yang. Addition to the pie is the energetic child of our interaction. Even though she took some of my “semen” in, I got replenished over with the newborn energy.

    *******
    “Sounds like my mom wanting me to go visit? ”

    Yes. They feel my increased need for nurture/support, but they just don’t have what I need (while I have what they need but it’s low priority for me). It’s not their fault. They’ll do anything I ask – but they just don’t have what I need the most. I do have to boundary my own openness to them somehow not to fall through it.

    I’ve experienced the more mundane “her putting my needs above hers” on shallower planes – but only after I tapped into a deeper place in a woman and she received me there to her liking/benefit. The only other times my needs came before woman’s were when I paid for it – and even then the needs where satisfied only when there was little struggle.

    *******
    In the end, women mostly gave me back what I put in – to the level they could receive me before being full. If I put in my needs, I received their needs back. If I put it divine, I got back the divine. In different forms but same.

  • Stingray

    Wow, this sounds snarky. Not meant that way at all. I meant I am out of my league with this one as I can’t relate. My apologies.

  • jim

    easy solution

    prohibit women from owning assets

    ..then security MUST be provided by men…the female hindbrain submits because her shelter and food depends on it….everyone is happy

  • Sasha

    Ted,

    I never bought into adversarial (war) framework advocated by so many in the manosphere. I think of relationship with a woman as a dance – not combat or martial art. Do you try to “one-up” your dance partner? No. Your best *mutual* performance is your goal. You can solo in front of each other and *role-play* competition, but it’s a small part.

    But to achieve a good partner dance, you have to be a solid lead and she has to be a solid follow. And being a solid lead means knowing how to dance on your own, knowing how to hold a good frame and feel your follow better than she can.

  • Scruggs

    Thanks Stingray, you’re a gem. I only realized that my situation sounded like a SAHM one after I re-read it. Although I have always made ~25% more than her that is not an issue.

    I’ll add another detail to my story and this is for all the men out there who have taken the red pill and think that choosing non-American women solve all your problems.

    I married an Eastern European: feminine, beautiful, sweet and loving. I knew when I married her that she wanted her children to speak her language. I had no problem with that, I thought it would give our kids an advantage, it would be my 3rd language, and I enjoy learning new languages. We speak it at home. Her friends are amazed that I speak it so well. I worked at it for two reasons, one it would immerse my kids – that is all we speak at home, and two, I won’t have anything said in my household that I don’t understand.

    Now men, let me tell you: I have never once been appreciated by her for my language skills nor once been given any credit for our childrens’ fluency (many kids in mixed language households don’t achieve high fluency).

    After swallowing the red pill and examining my situation, I came to the conclusion that marrying a career woman/supermom is just an impossible situation for a man to maintain his authority and her attraction after the children are born (btw, which was her primary goal, not love.) I’m just good genes, a good provider and a good father to her. She was an 8, a smart woman and a good woman by most standards, but I’m stuck in a bad marriage (and fucked).

    Don’t marry.

  • Sasha

    Scruggs,

    What do you want from your wife? How do *you* love her today? How would you describe your ideal relationship with her and your kids? Is your work something that matters to you deeply or a way to support yourself/her/kids?

  • Scruggs

    Ok, I’ll play along. Essentially, I want her to want to please me. She is the only woman I have loved, but I don’t love her anymore. She has hurt me too much. I treat her only as well as she treats me. My relationship with my kids is very good. At work I have autonomy and authority. It is the job I would have killed for when I started my career. It is not my passion, but I am challenged and get to use my talents and am well paid for it.

  • Scruggs

    Thanks, I hear what you are saying. This (my life) is what I want to be doing. Except for my marriage, life is good. I come home from work and talk about the good things, I never complain. I do well in my sport, and I love it. I’ve known my closest friends since we were in elementary school – these are men I can count on.

    But the way things are, to divorce my wife is to divorce my children too. Actually, I am not that selfish. I put my kids needs over my own. I don’t think there is a happy solution to my situation. I tell my story as a cautionary tale.

  • Sasha

    Scruggs,

    I feel you. She won’t respond to you with the love you want unless you love her through action/words/being (despite lack of “feeling”). You have to see if she is open to being seduced by you today Think back to what you did when you “loved her”. Do it now – especially when you want it the least.

    That’s if you want to give your marriage a shot/improve it. If not, you can divorce, stay a great dad to your kids from somewhat further away and look for another woman to love – but I suspect the story is likely to repeat itself and it’s way too drastic of a measure upfront.

    Another (indrect) point of attack is your work. Find something you are passionate about and start working on it. It will ease the load on your wife to please you/bring passion and will make you a more passionate man she is likelier to respond to. Not complete switch, but give it a start.

    Take a look at David Deida’s work – books and lectures.

  • Scruggs

    Thanks Sasha. I have read Deida and appreciate his work. Viewed through Deida’s lens, m/f polarity is our problem. it is not that I am too feminine or that we are opposites, but that she is too masculine. Her life is all plan and action. We are both masculine, which is why there is conflict and a power struggle.

    In my experience, caring more, trying to draw her closer only breeds more contempt. She doesn’t want to be seduced, she is happy to use me as her provider/fixer.

    Following my passion isn’t going to change anything. It won’t change her agenda. At this point, her agenda encompasses the family’s agenda. My agenda is similar, but hers is broader. It contains her language and cultural agendas in addition to our shared agendas. Since my kids are girls, there aren’t any masculine agendas for me to promote.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    It should also be noted that it can take a LONG time for a man to truly grasp the idea that women are completely clueless about a lot of the things they do and why they do them.

    I have been pretty clued up about this stuff for over a decade now but it wasn’t until about 5 years ago that it really sunk in that women can do some crazy, fucked up shit and think they are 100% in the right. On a conscious level you can understand the concept behind “watch what they do, not what they say” but when you experience it a few times after knowing exactly what to look for the point really hits home. And it’s a bitter pill to swallow, for sure.

  • Sasha

    You say “She is too masculine” and I hear “Scruggs could try going deeper into his masculine”. You can’t change her present agenda but you can become a deeper man who is higher priority than her agenda. You won’t know until you try.

    Did you feel her love/desire to please you back when you loved her? Was she a good wife/woman to you for any period of time outside of “honeymoon” period? Loving her isn’t necessarily about “drawing her closer”/caring more.

    Following your passion will change YOU. YOU will become a different man who might feel her deeper and she might want to be closer to. I understand that you are in what feels like a stalemate re wife/kids but it’ll gnaw at you til you change.

  • eric

    I’ve heard the dom/sub thing a thousand times before and it rings true as always. However the meta-concept of a frame vacuum is brilliant.

  • Stingray

    Scruggs,

    Thank you.

    I can think of only one thing. If she is overly masculine, what she wants is you to be uber masculine. If you want to try to win her back, if you decide it is worth it, you would need to become hyper masculine, especially in the bedroom. My opinion is that this is what she truly desires and it is the only thing she would respond to. I’m talking HYPER masculine. Throwing her against the wall and holding her there type masculine, bondage, spanking, rough sex, etc. Then being hyper masculine in responding to her as well. A quiet rage type of response to her crap. I would suggest tolerating none of it.

    Here is the problem. She will see through any type of hesitation in this. I would not know how to go about implementing this. I couldn’t suggest either a sudden change or easing into it. I only think this is what she would respond positively to and it might very well make her putty in your hands.

  • YOHAMI

    Stingray is probably right. Caring more and talking and sorting issues will take you nowhere. Fuck her good.

  • Scruggs

    Be more masculine. True, caring more and trying to bring her closer hasn’t worked. The only thing has worked to keep her in line is being super firm almost to the point of being an asshole. What I’m hearing is that I need to be a stronger, thicker oak tree. Either she comes back to me or she doesn’t.

    Following your passion will change YOU. YOU will become a different man who might feel her deeper and she might want to be closer to. I understand that you are in what feels like a stalemate re wife/kids but it’ll gnaw at you til you change.

    My core self knows this is true. I need to strengthen my resolve to do it.

    Many thanks Stingray, Sasha, Yohami for considering my
    situation.

    Now the sex question.

    Fuck her good>

    I fuck her any way that I want, but nothing I do is hard-core. Every time I have tried to get rough with her she complains that it hurts and she doesn’t like it. Is this a test? Is she refusing because she doesn’t think of me as dominant enough? Or is her ego/mind telling her that she is not a woman who likes to be treated like this and so she resists? I have always backed off and respected her wishes. Should I ignore her protests?

  • Stingray

    Heh,

    HUS got GBFMed.

  • Stingray

    Scruggs,

    Regarding the sex. I wouldn’t ignore her protests. She may use that against you.

    Try going rough during foreplay to show much more dominance. I think you might be right that she doesn’t hink of you as dominant enough. Use the wall thing (a lot of women love that), tossing her about (gently but not too gently), commanding her, bondage (a tie will work), etc. See how she responds. It really might be hurting her, but I suspect more that she is just not as turned on as you. Doing this kind of thing might get her crazy. Tease her as well during all of this and get her good and crazy. Then try the rough sex.

  • Sasha

    Scruggs,

    Becoming stronger/thicker oak tree is growing in the plane you are in today. It’s a good thing to do and you strengthen yourself by plugging small boundary leaks by being super-firm – and her response is best indicator of this.

    But there is only so much thickness/strength you can gain without growing deeper roots to support a bigger trunk. The fact that you realize it is the first step and her response to your rougher sexing is confirmation of that as well.

    You simply are NOT at the level of depth/dominance today to (lovingly) sex her rough. It is YOUR ego/mind that wants/demands deeper response/surrender from her than your spirit supports. As you go deeper into your core self and start feeling your deeper truths (as in why the fuck are you living), you will start feeling deeper into the world/your wife. As that happens, your ability to discern her pain/pleasure will increase and she could open up way more.

    Your current social circle of elementary school buddies might not be able to support you in the journey deeper, however.

    P.S. Do NOT ignore her *repeated* solid protests and plow through – that’s abuse and will bring a world of hurt.

  • Hero

    I’m not necessarily talking about divorce and I didn’t say you were being selfish. Actually, it sounds like you are putting everyone’s needs in front of your’s.

    The way she’s treating you is obviously not the way you want to be treated. Make this known. Let your emotions show. Express the fact that you are not happy with it.

    Remember that a woman will not respect a man that she can walk on. Have standards for yourself. Stand up for yourself and demand what you want.

    It sounds like you are a great dad and you take care of things. Why are you afraid to demand to be treated well?

    And like I was saying above, try flipping the script. She says she does “everything” then let her do it all and in a month ask her how she likes doing “everything”. She’s not treating you well so don’t spend time with her.

    It sounds like you have been trying to make her happy. Stop doing that. You need to make yourself happy first. The pride can not be happy if the lion is not happy.

    I would suggest spending time away from her. After the kids are in bed say “I’m going out” and leave.

    Pick up the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Robert Glover. It has some good insight at to how to step back from your situation and look at your actions. You may find that you are overcompensating for your needs by being nice.

  • Hero

    And remember women abhor a power vacuum and will fill it in if she has to (but will not be happy about it). This is confusing in practice. You think “she wants to be in control so I will let her” but she doesn’t WANT to HAVE to be in control.

    Stingray said in comment on another post that women are terrified by a power vacuum. Think about that when your wife is structuring everything around her. She’s attempting to create safety but she would much rather that be done for her.

    Step in and step up. You don’t have to be a controlling husband. It’s your mindset that needs to change.

  • YOHAMI

    “Stingray said in comment on another post that women are terrified by a power vacuum. Think about that when your wife is structuring everything around her. She’s attempting to create safety but she would much rather that be done for her.”

    Yes.

    And your mindset starts by putting your priorities and your needs and your satisfaction first. It’s not what else do you need to do to please her. But what exactly do you need to be 100% content and good yourself, first.

    That’s where the rock-solid thing will come from. When you’re happy and accomplished and self reassured and she knows she can´t take you for granted (or you would flee because your own happiness is more important and ultimately independent of hers) then she’ll want to mold to you.

    And she complaining during sex – I´ve only have had that when the girl wasnt turned on and wanted to get over it safely and quickly.

  • Scruggs

    Thanks all. It is almost like we’ve come back the main issue I introduced in my comment April 18th, 2012 at 6:57 pm where I described all the things she does. How do I take more of a leadership role when all these things that she does are part of her role as mother and woman of the house? I don’t see where I could ‘step up’ or how this created a power void.

    As you go deeper into your core self and start feeling your deeper truths (as in why the fuck are you living), you will start feeling deeper into the world/your wife. As that happens, your ability to discern her pain/pleasure will increase and she could open up way more.

    This is Deida’s message and I don’t understand it at all. I don’t understand how to do this nor how it would help my relationship with my wife. Seriously, I think even if I quit my job to follow my passion, say if I started up a successful business doing cancer research that supermom would feel any different about me. She would still be doing ‘everything.’ I would still be working a lot, leaving it to her to drive the kids to dance class, do the laundry, register for summer camp, etc. And I’d still be training and competing and hanging with the guys now and then.

  • Sasha

    Scruggs,

    You won’t understand it until you do it and experience it – it’s one of those things. I was sure laws of physics didn’t allow me to bunny-hop on the bike – but I surely was able to bunny-hop after trying hard enough. You couldn’t imagine being in your current job when you started, but walking that path got you to it today.

    The reason I mentioned your male-friends and that it’s likely none of them have gone deeper than you today themselves – otherwise one of them would have clued you in. In that sense, they aren’t helping you.

    How to do it? For some time, break your routine, minimize time with your wife, kids, old buddies, work. Seek deeper men/mentors/guides. Go into the woods, fast, break a sweat, commune with nature, chase a vision. If you have the vision already (cancer research), start dedicating some time each day to it – and make it #1 priority. It’s better if the vision/goal resonates with your whole body, not just come from the mind. You might have to stop having sex with your wife for a while in fact to accomplish this.

    Your wife doesn’t need you to run the house/kids. She can do it herself possibly better than you – so she is edging you out. You should hold your ground today – but if you do YOUR OWN work, you’ll bring fruits of different QUALITY.

    It’s like you go to a foreign land and bring her something she never tasted. She still cooks the dinner but the dessert/spice that only you can supply makes the whole meal sublime. On the surface you might have way less time for her/kids but contribution is more valuable. And she is happier because she is getting from you something she can’t get on her own. And it’s possible that you learn some cooking methods she doesn’t know – so she wants you to cook for her YOUR stuff.

    You seem to have a charge of masculine energy that is seeking a new receptive source. You buddies/sports/career are old ones and you either mastered them or topped out. So you directed energy towards kids and became a great dad (cue in language skill). But instead of giving them (and your wife) more of the same, you gotta go deeper.

    That’s how you regain the leadership. You go into your own MBA school. You can’t make her follow you – you gotta become a man she wants to follow. For a woman having kids is a huge spurt to growth and she is outgrowing you. You gotta give birth to you own baby – your passion, your project, your mission, your vision – to match her growth. Nausea, sickness, birth-pain possibly included.

  • YaReally

    “I want someone to help me figure out how to get where I want to go”

    That’s YOU. That’s your job. You are a man, you need to get to know yourself to your core and figure out how to get where you want to go.

    “I want an offensive coach.”

    Again that’s you. You are a man. Figuring out your purpose and following a path in life is what you should be doing regardless of who’s around. You’re looking for someone to “fix” you and help you understand yourself but part of becoming a man is figuring that out yourself. You designed a bed and have all the pieces to put it together but you want someone else to give you an instruction book when you’re the one who should know how to fit the pieces together.

    “I need someone that can help me figure shit out.”

    You’re a man. You are all you need to figure shit out. A girl can’t even decide where to go for dinner and you want her to be able to solve shit that even you haven’t solved?

    This is why Sasha said: “You are not getting a fully functioning partner because you aren’t one yourself yet.”

    It’s very spot-on. To relate it to pickup, a big part of meeting a lot of women is learning what you do and don’t want in a partner. When you’re new to success with women you fuck anything because you don’t KNOW what you want and you don’t know yourself yet. That’s why random AFC virgins end up married to shitty girlfriends. Those guys didn’t know “ill be unhappy with a girl who doesn’t put out frequently” and “I won’t accept disrespect in front of others from her” and “I love a woman who enjoys cooking for me” and “I need a girl whos a gym bunny because I lose attraction to women if they get fat”.

    He doesnt know himself so he takes what comes along and is miserable and wants other people to tell him what he wants because he doesnt want to put in the effort to find out for himself. You’re doing the same thing but with your overall life.

    You have a lot of work to do internally, on yourself as a man, girls and relationships aside. Check out the “Creating and Maintaining Order” chapter of Manhood 101′s free eBook. The stuff in that Chapter about defining clear needs, enforcing expectations, punishment/reward in relation to that, etc. might help you out:

    http://manhood101.com/principles101.pdf

    (this is actually a really good book in general, it approaches things from a different perspective than most pickup/manosphere stuff. I highly recommend it to everyone working on their internal game)

    If its any consolation don’t beat yourself up over it. It’s not your fault, society conditions us NOT to learn about ourselves. It’s easier if everyone is conditioned to believe they want the same things (college, career, kids, wife). You were just a victim of social conditioning like most other guys. But you can fix it. Good luck!

  • King A (Matthew King)

    Ted C, YOHAMI, and Sasha wrote:

    I was only calling it ‘war’ because King A called it such. I’ve never considered it that way. …

    So you can picture that as a war. It isnt a war. It’s just not a fairy tale. …

    I never bought into adversarial (war) framework advocated by so many in the manosphere. I think of relationship with a woman as a dance …

    It is a war. That doesn’t mean you have to garrotte her in her sleep or burn yourself in front of the courthouse. But it does mean we are in a state of enmity as long as our understanding of the ultimate goals of the culture remain in conflict.

    It does not help to pretend you are at peace when one side is actively annihilating you. The casualties are not our lives but our manliness. Doped-up, vacant-eyed Letztemenschen are shells of men, the walking dead.

    Yes, it is ultimately a metaphor. But not so much a metaphor as you might think. Real lives are at stake, it is a battle for hearts and minds.

    The good news is, women desire peace. Under the cuntly carapace she inherited from dried up hag theorists, the inner woman just wants to be. She doesn’t want to fight. The better news is, men excel at battle once the lines are drawn. So it is not so much a matter of open bloody conflict as it is recognizing the martial aspects of the insidious assumptions arrayed against us.

    For this reason, women are ready, even eager to defect individually (hence the phenomenon of Five Minutes of Alpha). Only we have not laid out the groundwork for their surrender, still pretending that our conflict is not so serious, a “fairy tale,” or an overreaction by middle-aged MRAs pissed about having lived half their life in a lie.

    Alone, isolated from the Weird Sisters of Feminism, a woman is ready to capitulate — except she must keep up pretenses on the outside, for the culture. Why? Because she has never been offered a choice. She has been ridiculed for her submission: the womyn’s rights cohort cannot tolerate even a single defection. Our goal is to offer individual women the choice, and raise a new generation of girls who will aid their men in overturning the culture.

    Granted, this is somewhat more ambitious than tips on how to get the drunk bar slut to suck your dick, but the deterioration of feminism is bringing the conflict to a head, and the enormous popularity of the “Dark Arts” is a symptom of the old order beginning to wither away.

    Matt

  • Sasha

    Matt,

    Put down your light-saber and step away from the controls – your target is blurry. There might be a need to wage a war against faux-feminism, but there is no need to wage war against women. Sow war against *women* = reap more war.

    If you *always* end up sleeping with the enemy, you might want to try sleeping with your brotherly friends for once.

  • Jorgez

    Ah yes, “gaily”, not “gayfully” (English is not my first language). But truth be told, she was a bit of a butch. :)

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