Recently Marellus from Just Four Guys brought this to my attention:
Did you see how the womyn tore apart a commenter, by the name of Redlum, on Jezebel ?
Just because he said this :
Why does feminism have to antagonize and mock men all the time? Men are expected to have no vulnerabilities, this is an oppressive gender role. When men’s vulnerabilities are exposed, such as feeling emasculated or being insecure about women making them “obsolete”, that is a human emotion and gloating over it and mocking it is not only terrible, but also one of the big things giving feminism a bad name.
The top reply was this :
If being in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you and/or has a higher position than you makes you feel that you are becoming obsolete, maybe you should be mocked for being silly, immature, and sexist. So now, on top of everything else that women have to deal with, we have to comfort men for freaking out whenever a woman surpasses them at something? I’m sorry – if you are in a group that has been privileged over/oppressive of other groups, you don’t get an apology and a reassuring hug every time we get a millimeter closer to some semblance of fairness and equality. Men need to suck it up and deal with life on more equitable terms like adults, without those who do just that expecting a medal for it.
Write a post on what this guy did wrong, if possible.
Redlum’s mistake was twofold. His first error was to ever overtly look for sympathy from a woman (women). We already know women lack the capacity for empathizing with the male experience, but sympathy is another side of the equation. One grave error most blue pill plug-ins make in this respect is a presumption that women owe them sympathy or that women are predisposed to sympathizing with them.
This is usually due to having been conditioned by the feminine for so long to believe that “Open Communication®”, sharing his feelings and being vulnerable will make him the ideal man. This is an unfortunate outcome of the ‘get in touch with your feminine side’ curse of Jung: in a similar respect to the myth of Relational Equity where a man expects his sacrifices and investment in a relationship will be a buffer against women’s Hypergamy, the expectation is that women will appreciate his openness and vulnerabilities. He believes the feminine identity lie that “vulnerability is strength.”
It’s a very seductive fallacy for a dyed-in-the-wool plug-in to make. I’ve read Redlum’s comments before and he doesn’t impress me as a chump, so I believe his comment on Jezebel was really more of a symbolic appeal to feminine reason. What he illustrates here is a common misgiving most Beta blue pill men subscribe to – that they will be perceived as unique, “not like other guys” in his embracing feminine vulnerability. And as you can see from the top Jezebel reply he was met with the same hostility women have for “vulnerable” men.
Hypergamy psychologically predisposes women to hold either contempt or pity for male vulnerability on a limbic level. Even in the most ’emotionally evolved’ women, by order of degree, Hypergamy is always testing for male fitness in order to assess whom she will pair with either in short term breeding availability or long term provisioning availability. When a man overtly expresses an openness to vulnerability, on a subconscious level it telegraphs his insecurity to her Hypergamous nature. Thus, she filters him out, or if she’s paired with him prior to this expression she initiates the mental protocol to leave him for a better match.
The contempt expressed by the Jezebel authoress is a good example of this.
So now, on top of everything else that women have to deal with, we have to comfort men for freaking out whenever a woman surpasses them at something?
You’re a man, suck it up, you shouldn’t be vulnerable by virtue of your maleness. It’s a conflicting message in light of the touchy-feely feminine conditioning men endure in their upbringing, but it is an honest reaction, and one that men need to understand when sorting out the reality of women and their need to unplug.
I’m not gonna write you a love song, cause you asked for one,..
The second (symbolic?) mistake Redlum makes is making an appeal for sympathy. In Empathy I outlined women’s gut-level, evolutionarily selected-for, lack of empathizing with the male experience. I defined the difference between empathy and sympathy, and while women might lack the means for that empathy, they have a very strong sense of sympathy. However that sympathy comes with conditions.
Women involved with high SMV Alpha Men can be some of the most genuinely, organically sympathetic women you’ll ever encounter. Granted, that sympathy may facilitate her own Hypergamous interests, but more so because that Alpha never petitions her for her sympathy.
Women give their sympathies of their own accord, never as the result of a man petitioning it from her. A woman must be inspired to sympathy for a man, asking for it is negotiating for her desire to be sympathetic.
A man who is intentionally vulnerable smacks of a guy who is so in an effort to qualify for her intimacy. It’s similar to the dynamic found in Play Nice, that niceness, that vulnerability that’s supposed to be strength, is perceived as a ruse to better identify with the feminine and thus be more acceptable to it. If feminine Hypergamy is fine tuned for anything it’s genuineness. That’s not to say women wont turn it to their social and biological advantages, but Hypergamy is always testing for certainty and authenticity. I’ve stated before that there is nothing more satisfying for a woman than to believe she’s figured a guy out using her mythical feminine intuition, this is a direct satisfaction of Hypergamy’s need for certainty, but I should also add that there is nothing more mortifying, rage inducing and produces more bitter tears than a woman who’s had her Hypergamy fooled by an imposter. Not only does this deception involve a loss of investment and resources to her, but it’s also an insult to her ego that her capacity to filter for authenticity isn’t as effective as she believes her ‘intuition’ actually is.
Suck It Up
The bigger picture in this Jezebel exchange is really about one of the most basic and useful social conventions ever devised by the Feminine Imperative – The Male Catch 22:
Man Up or Shut Up – The Male Catch 22
One of the primary way’s Honor is used against men is in the feminized perpetuation of traditionally masculine expectations when it’s convenient, while simultaneously expecting egalitarian gender parity when it’s convenient.
For the past 60 years feminization has built in the perfect Catch 22 social convention for anything masculine; The expectation to assume the responsibilities of being a man (Man Up) while at the same time denigrating asserting masculinity as a positive (Shut Up). What ever aspect of maleness that serves the feminine purpose is a man’s masculine responsibility, yet any aspect that disagrees with feminine primacy is labeled Patriarchy and Misogyny.
Essentially, this convention keeps beta males in a perpetual state of chasing their own tails. Over the course of a lifetime they’re conditioned to believe that they’re cursed with masculinity (Patriarchy) yet are still responsible to ‘Man Up’ when it suits a feminine imperative. So it’s therefore unsurprising to see that half the men in western society believe women dominate the world (male powerlessness) while at the same time women complain of a lingering Patriarchy (female powerlessness) or at least sentiments of it. This is the Catch 22 writ large. The guy who does in fact Man Up is a chauvinist, misogynist, patriarch, but he still needs to man up when it’s convenient to meet the needs of a female imperative.
This dualistic, conveniently conflicting, social convention is what defines a condition of ‘equality’ for today’s New Woman:
Men need to suck it up and deal with life on more equitable terms like adults, without those who do just that expecting a medal for it.
In other words suck it up when convenient and sack up when necessary. In a sense she’s not wrong– an intrinsic part of the male experience is not to complain about adversity, not to complain about pain and not to complain about suffering – in other words, Man Up, be strong and don’t let on to any vulnerability. If that sounds contradictory to a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training for men it should, but only because it’s half of the usefulness of the Male Catch 22. Where our Jezebeler drops the ball is the other half of the con – Man up and be useful, to women, to the Feminine Imperative. The problem is that equality only applies to what benefits the feminine, anything else that constitutes a man, constitutes masculinity, is a liability.
If being in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you and/or has a higher position than you makes you feel that you are becoming obsolete, maybe you should be mocked for being silly, immature, and sexist.
There is also the option that Men may simply opt out of involving themselves in a relationship with said woman. In this case the Male Catch 22 is used to shame him for his insecurities not only by women for not participating in their potential provisioning, but also by a chorus of plugged in men ready to mock him for his lack of manhood (also in order to convince the feminine of their unique dedication to the imperative and hopefully get laid as a result of it). It’s at this point he’s derided for his ‘fragile ego’ and his ‘being threatened by strong independent women®.”
By virtue of his maleness, he literally cannot win, and any expression of this condition, even the questioning of this situation is then perceived as his complaining about it – and overt confession of vulnerability. What I’m describing here is the core issue blue pill, plugged in men have with Game and the red pill – just asking a question or making a critical observation about the feminine with regard to the male condition is always conflated with men complaining – something men aren’t allowed to do. It comes off as “poor men”, just as our Jezebeler recounts, but it distracts and discourages real discourse about those conditions.
That is how effective the Male Catch 22 is, it kills all critical inquiry before the questions can even be asked.
Women in the know and appear to accept red pill ideas, far from being the unplugged man’s ideal woman, present no fewer problems than your average blue pill woman.
Red pill understanding or not, women will never understand or empathise with men’s experience – althought she may seem to – right up until a conflict of interests arises.
From one of Rollo’s other articles: “I reject your reality and replace it with my own…” and how could she not? – She answers to something that sees him as merely as a stepping stone to its own end goal..
There is a situation I’ve encountered and I don’t have a name for it but can call it “Fuck off Game” or “Moral High-Ground Game”. A number of years ago (pre-game understanding) I was seeing a girl who was constantly shit-testing etc etc. We broke up but she was still hanging out and I couldn’t really get rid of her. She kept on me about chatting other girls and then one day I found out she was seeing some guy while at the same time blasting me. I told her she was a fucking liar and hypocrite, blew up and… Read more »
@ BlackPoisonSoul
Have you followed up on Rollo’s stated influential source, BF Skinner.
Are any of the commenters even interested in learning about the “medicine” Rollo is adding a spoonful of sugar to and repackaging?
@DT, you could add Steven Pinker to that reading list too if you’d like.
This post outlines the reasons that game is not just a set of tactics but an attitude of knowing your boundaries and sticking to them. Shit-testing and this whole feminist imperative or “Male Catch 22” is one big shit test that requires an “I’m mad as hell and not going to take it anymore” attitude to break out of. But one perhaps unhealthy behavior that comes with the “red pill” is over-compensating to make up for that feeling of being duped when you were an AFC. This over-compensating and being a jerk is not dealing with the co-dependence that fueled… Read more »
Excuse my thumbsucking in this comment. The topic of this article is that to WOMEN, No True Man has weakness and vulnerability. Hence, inexorably, what WOMEN mean by a true man is brute strength and brute insensitivities. Restated, to WOMEN, the measure of any man’s true masculinity is his capacity for brutality. But upon reaching that particular thought, I find myself at a dead end in trying to imagine an operational definition of women’s ascertaining a man’s capacity for brutality. I think shit tests are part of it, and masculine faces, and large muscles, and dark triad traits. All of… Read more »
@jf12
“But I think I know enough to confidently state that her respect for you is negatively correlated with the sacrifices you make for her. Negatively.”
Experience has proven this to me; thanks for bringing it to my attention. Perhaps this is also demonstrated in the “bad-boy” dynamic: the more she does for him, while he does little for her, the more attracted & attached she becomes. Good lesson to remember.
@Sao Fang
Typical NAWALT and temper tantrums.
Not even popcorn can make the pointless back and forth any less uninteresting.
The thought of manosphere groupies never even crossed my mind and yet here we are, what a mindfuck.
Although part of me believes the influx of women is out of fear. Men are starting to wake up.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/10/the-bitter-taste-of-the-red-pill/ A lot gets made of the Dark Triad or the Dark Side of Game where a skillful player can sadistically use his newly learned red-pill super powers for evil instead of for the greater good of mankind. Game-aware women – the ones who have been forcibly exhausted of all pretense of maintaing the illusion that Game is a lie – feel as though it’s owed to them, in their concession of Game’s reality, that Men should use Game to women’s benefit. Even to the last effort women still cling to the tools of a feminized acculturation; “Yeah, OK, you… Read more »
^^^Figured you had it covered and it doesn’t make it any less amusing to see it unfold before your eyes.
Hypergamy, Game, “Dark Arts”, old Uncle Burr Skinner and all, and all.
Girls, if you don’t want it to be true, as you plainly do, then ..
.. stop making it true, by what you do. As everyone can see.
Or else it stands.
In the same way that Nice Guys Are The Real Jerks, an unattractive man that sucks it up must be just doing it to impress the chicks. The chicks know, see, because they aren’t impressed by him sucking it up, the way they’d be impressed by an attractive man sucking it up. Actually, they’re kind of hoping the attractive man lets a little real teardrop form so they can kiss it away for him, unlike the fake crying of the unattractive man.
This thread is blowing up with personal drama, so allow me to interject with some more Nietzschean wank. Women (and other slaves) wield power of great magnitude, but it is negative power. Even though slaves wield great power it has the tendency to be invisible. E.g. in the argument between spouses the crying woman is seen as powerless in spite of the fact that her tears get real results and will frequently prevail! Unfortunately, tears can only negate. Nothing new ever gets created by crying. Nowadays you can see this slavish attitude infecting entire crafts, with much enthusiasm over “rights”… Read more »
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/10/the-bitter-taste-of-the-red-pill/ is the male equivalent of “he’s just threatened by a strong, independent woman”
Re: “He’s just threatened by an ankle-biting Chihuahua.” The bitterness of the red pill is realizing that it doesn’t cure the ill the way it “should” because reality is not the way it should be. As much as it pains a man to realize that all of his attempts to placate with treats, to entertain with toys, or to ignore that Chihuahua by limping around with it hanging off his leg, the only real way to deal with it is to be more brutal towards it. And despite the apex fallacy of women, most men are bitter at discovering they… Read more »
@Rol
Every year, there’s a new batch of 18 year olds. Why worry about washed up LyingTree and Kate?
I’ve been saying strange stuff like getting other men to take care of my babies’ bills. Aka alpha fucks beta bucks. The recipients of my rants, who are all married women (!!!), shake their heads upon hearing that because it’s wronggggggggggg. Oddly, they treat me better the next time we meet up.
And all the above may be independently verified by anyone talking to women face to face.
@Rollo
I’m a big fan of the Pirates movies by Walt Disney Pictures. Thought dear old captain Jack is a great example of an attractive asshole.
“But I will not be going back to the Locker, mate. Count on that.”
@Kate, if there were a parallel effort on the part of men to cast strong independent women® into good and bad camps,..you might have a point. If there were a similar social effort on the part of men to cast strong independent women® as Dark Triad sociopaths unwilling to conform themselves to men’s better liking and male imperative,..you might have a point. If there were for the past 60+ years a similar effort on the part of men to systematically, politically and legally remove every inference of femininity from the very language we speak, and erase and obscure all notion… Read more »
Re: the threat of The Threat. The conundrum facing nice men is not only that of “Women don’t want a man to cheat, but they love a Man who could cheat.” but more generally “Women don’t want a man to be brutal, but they love Man who could be brutal.” For example, his insouciance about her feelings about his cheating is part of his emotional brutality. For her behavior to improve it’s not sufficient for him to threaten “I’m going to threaten you with harm!” She has to believe that actual harm, actual cheating, actual brutality is imminent unless she… Read more »
“Top that Motherfuckers” @Kate
We all have stories, all have demons and angels. But I’m going to coop your closing.
First of all, I appreciate the tone and thought of your response. Second, your blog and others on the Manosphere (including those written by women) are the very social/political effort you say doesn’t exist. Almost every single article is about the evils of women. I understand the purpose of the hyperbole, but it is near impossible not to eventually reject it as the propaganda technique it is. As you have seen previously, female readers can only tolerate this for so long before breaking up with and then denouncing association with the Manosphere. I do have a point; you just don’t… Read more »
I wonder if you’d think it propaganda if I were to build a blog around gratuitous praise and flattery all the aspects of femininity I admire? Would you tell me to STFU or be more balanced and objective in my analysis of all the various aspects that make women the loving, vivacious, nurturing and mystical creatures men could never hope to figure out?
Would that be propaganda?
@Kate The gist of your message is that the articles should be made more palatable to women, regardless of how male readers may view this. Understand that the blogosphere is effectively the free market of ideas and thus you don’t get to tell people what they can and can’t write, simply vote with your readership – or, more actively, if you so should choose, critique Rollo’s articles in the comment section or in your own work. Even if you don’t agree with a free market of ideas and, like many women, seek to limit free speech for all to protect… Read more »
“Almost every single article is about the evils of women.” -kate
We don’t denounce all woman are evils, individually, everyone is different. We are looking at the other way, the psychology mind of woman. Look at it in a scientific way, how our human mind work.
“As you have seen previously, female readers can only tolerate this for so long before breaking up with and then denouncing association with the Manosphere.”
If only ..
So. Here till next Christmas at least, I take it?
I’m in the business of unplugging chumps from the Matrix, not making women feel better about the truths the manosphere reveals. If you’re looking for a compromised truth that affirms your ego-investments, well, maybe you should discuss that with Mark the next time you see him.
“The gist of your message is that the articles should be made more palatable to women, regardless of how male readers may view this.”
No, it isn’t. I’m just telling you why women get sick of the discussion.
“Would that be propaganda?”
Of course.
“We don’t denounce all woman are evils, individually, everyone is different. We are looking at the other way, the psychology mind of woman. Look at it in a scientific way, how our human mind work.”
A very rational comment.
“Hey, I want to believe, you know I do.”
Hope you will one day.
It has become predictable.
Washed up cougar posts wall of texts.
Betas reply with walls of text.
In real life, these bitches pull nothing. Zero attention.
This is why I’m glad I followed Rollo from way back at Sosuave. I knew he was on to something greater. His steadfastness on this subject is very important to the well being of men who value his insight. It’s a sad state of affairs when things have gotten so bad that coming here feels like a reprieve. I deal with women at home, work, gym, etc. Who wants to the see the emotional drama unfold here as well… I can’t really talk about any of this stuff with even close male friends because the life-long indoctrination is too strong.… Read more »
@Sao Feng It has become predictable. Washed up cougar posts wall of texts. Betas reply with walls of text. In real life, these bitches pull nothing. Zero attention. I’ve come to realize that sites like this are just another form of facebook for them. We try to relate our experiences to women wanting to believe they possess the same intellectual curiosity, but it just isn’t there. Its down right embarrassing to see how guys act on PUA sites. Actively trying to game these chicks in the most obvious, cringe worthy ways and in the same breath describe themselves as alpha… Read more »
@Kate, perhaps HUS or Love, Ashley are the sand you’d prefer to stick your head into?
Don’t expect any sugar in the medicine here.
If you want ‘red pill light’ I’m sure Aunt Giggles would love another sycophant.
If you want ‘red pill light’ I’m sure Aunt Giggles would love another sycophant.
Rollo,
Red pill light??? Giggles is firmly plugged back into the matrix. She doesn’t remember anything.
“Ignorance is bliss”
There’s a reason I use quotation marks Morpheus.
Heh,..
Re: tossing little nuggets. Like the breadcrumb trail of Hansel and Gretel?
I recently found that Agree and Amplify was a better strategy, any time a topic related to the feminine imperative came up.
I used to really like auntie giggles back in the day, for a woman she was dishing out female gender truths hardcore. In many ways she was behaving like the matriarchs of old that knew and understood that young women had to be taught what the risks of unrestricted female sexuality were. The only ever present downside to auntie was that while she always presented a very eloquent and elegant analysis of female gender truths (that were palatable to women), she always mixed this with some very poor advice. It was always from the pov of trying to convince men… Read more »
Now to relate my previous thoughts to Kates “interesting” interjection on the posts topic, which is actually a rather common occurance when women join in on a manosphere post. Most women are not feminists (leaders) and not followers (angry cunts like Marcotte and whoever writes for Jezebel): they are just casual supporters of whatever improves their lot on a socioeconomic and sociosexual plane. I’d stick my neck out and say that 80% of most regular women are like this. Nowadays gals like this, including auntie and Kate and so forth: have realised how much feminisms victories that they casually supported/enjoyed… Read more »
” it will all work out for us if we once again believe women play fair!”
@Valentin
TL:DR summary: Kate and LyingTree are washed up has-beens. Whatever attention they used to get in their fertile years are now being monopolised by the new batch of 18 year olds. Comes online and pulls beta males into writing walls of text.
(count: 3 sentences)
@Valentin There is no SMP hydrostatic equilibrium, period. What goes around comes around has not been true historically, either. Moreover there is, more generally, no restoring force in Le Chatelier’s Principle. And finally, we do not have any semblance of equilibrium anyway. We are men in a canoe that has already gone over the waterfall, and our focus should change from concerns about buoyancy. But since people like to compartmentalize things, there are a finite number of types of organizing sociosexual interactions that seem to make some kind of semi-stable pattern states, such as practically universal monogamy for life, blatant… Read more »
@Sao Feng Well you’re right. But I rarely find I actually have anything to say when I read posts by guys like Rollo, Deti, Dalrock and so forth: I really just nod. Even in the cases where I don’t agree with the conclusions made I can still see where they come from and agree on the underlying analysis or truth. But women always manage to spark some critical thoughts that I find is fun to write about. @jf12 I gotta say most of the time I agree with both your truths and your conclusions. There is a distinct difference between… Read more »
Kate v MM = classical tragedy.
Jay, I don’t even think Kate wanted anything else than attention through stirring up some dust. While the underlying motivation was probably taking this post personally, I doubt she or any other women truly cares we know how lacking in empathy they are. But what was really enticing and pushed her over the edge was the potential for drama, meaning attention guaranteed. Doesn’t matter that most of it is guys rolling their eyes or just using her little storm in a glass for musing on the topic at hand. She is still the center of it and that feels so… Read more »
@Different T.
Are you and our old friend – LivingTree, one and the same?
HOF post.
[…] Originally Posted by wilderness I hadn't realized that claiming that you don't care about money factored into trying to shame men into not expressing themselves. Suck It Up | […]
[…] for. From there I was introduced to the RedPill by wonderfully written articles called, “Suck It Up” and “What is the Red Pill” by Rollo Tomassi […]
[…] Suck It Up […]
“That’s some catch, that catch-22.”
I was fully in that mindset up until a couple of years ago when I discovered sites like this. Even now it is a constant struggle to overcome a life time of conditioning in the feminine imperative. It is very subtle – it doesn’t come so much from individual females as much as society at large: movies, TV, school, etc.
That is why we need gentlemen’s clubs.
” “Open Communication®”, “Relational Equity”
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ddp15rBS1qcsnyl.gif
“Women give their sympathies of their own accord, never as the result of a man petitioning it from her.” Very raw in nature and in culture. I once read you say “look for what a women can do to help someone who may never be able to help her back.” It’s weird to imbofy the ability to not critique complain or condem. To live with flaws while learning how to let people in passed the catch 22… One thing I struggled with was dealing with a women’s shit test while maintained self composure and respect. It’s that core ruthless human… Read more »