The Brand of Independence

independence

The archetype of the Strong Independent Woman® has been culturally reinforced over the last half century in virtually every imaginable media. Whether it’s Disney’s capable Princesses ready to save themselves from certain doom – as well as their quirky, hapless but handsome male heroes – or the now clichéd ‘tough bitch’ of action movies and video game protagonists who measures herself by how well she can kick ass and /or swear as the culturally contextual equal of “any man”. Her template-crafted character is strong, confident, measuredly aggressive, decisive (but usually only when shit gets serious so as to prove to the audience she’s ‘digging deep within herself to discover her yet unrealized resolve), judicious, loving to those loyal or dependent on her (immediate family, children and female friends), capable of solving problems with little more than the feminine intuition men magically lack – but above all, she’s independent.

As this cultural archetype is broadcast to society at large, the want then is to find parallels of this Strong Independent Woman® in the ‘real’ world. The media character is only marginally believable now thanks to endless revisions and replications, so we look for the examples of independent women equalling and exceeding the, paltry-by-comparison, achievements of the unenlightened ignorance of their male “oppressors.” High ranking company CEOs are usually the first rock star independent women to nominally shine (often undeservedly) in such a role, but then, by order of degrees, we can move down the economic social strata and cherry-pick or conveniently create the match of any mediocre man. As most men are, or have been conditioned Betas it’s not too difficult.

It really is the End of Men you see. You’re no longer necessary because, well now, there is nothing men can collectively and uniformly do that women cannot find some individual example of matching and / or exceeding. Women don’t need men anymore, they’re independent.

The Branding

If there’s one thing I know, it’s branding. The Strong Independent Woman® caricature has generously earned it’s registered trademark. I sometimes use that ® to emphasize a particularly long-evolved meme; social conventions so embedded into our cultural fabric that they literally have become their own brand. The Strong Independent Woman® is actually one the best examples of this branding. However, to really understand the gravity of so long a cultural branding, you must go to the root of how the brand of the independent woman was originally intended to evolve by the 2nd wave cultural feminists who spawned it. In a way it’s succeeded far better than any feminist of the period really had the foresight to expect.

An Independent Woman was to be independent of men.

While a lot of feel-good aphorisms like confidence, determination, integrity, and the like became associated with this desire for independence, make no mistake, the original long-term feminist goal of fostering that independence in women was to break them off into individuated, autonomous entities from men. That individuation needed to be as positive and attractive to women as possible, so a social pairing of that independence from men, with a sense of strength and respectability, had to be nurtured over time.

Since the beginnings of the sexual revolution, women were acculturated to believe they could ‘have it all’, career, family, a husband (of her optimal hypergamous choosing) and, if she were influential enough, leave some indelible mark on society to be remembered by for posterity. To achieve this she’d need to be an autonomous agent, strong, and above all independent of men. Women would embody and perfect the maverick individualism that men seemed to enjoy throughout history. If she couldn’t manifest ‘having it all’ then she was still, by male force or by personal choice, not independent enough to realize it. Of course, the irony of all this can be found in the marriages of virtually every ‘high profile’ feminist luminary of the time (all the way up to our current time) to the very powerful and influential types of men their stated independence was to emancipate all women from in order to truly be independent.

The Case Against Male Self-Esteem

Matt Forney’s lightning rod post, The Case Against Female Self-Esteem drew a frenzy of internet hate, but at the core of that post was a question that Strong Independent Women® and their male identifiers don’t like be confronted with; do they truly want independence from men? Do the men they want to be independent from even exist, or are they conveniently useful archetypes; vaudevillian chauvinist cartoons from the 50’s, planted in their heads, courtesy of the feminine imperative?

While I can’t endorse a message that would diminish anyone’s self-esteem, male or female, Matt’s post, even so much as suggesting the idea of limiting female self-esteem, uncomfortably turns a cultural mirror back on over 50 years feminist and feminized social engineering. For over the past 50 years the case against male self-esteem, with the latent purpose of emancipating women from dependence on men, began in earnest — not with some anger inducing blog post, but as a progressive social engineering that would run the course of decades to effectively erase men’s inconvenient masculine identity, or even memory of what that identity ever meant to men. The case against male self-esteem has been the social undercurrent of popular culture since the early 1960’s.

I think it’s important for red pill men to internalize the popular idea of feminine independence. The true message that the Strong Independent Woman® brand embodies is independence from you, a man.

Its latent purpose isn’t the actual empowerment of women, or efforts to bolster self-esteem, strength (for whatever loose definition seems convenient), confidence or any other esoteric quality that might flatter a feminine ego. Its purpose isn’t to foster financial or economic independence (as evidenced by ever evolving fem-centric laws, educational and financial handicaps), or religious social parity, or even efforts to achieve its vaunted social equalism between the sexes. What feminine independence truly means is removing the man – independence from men. Feminine independence’s idealized state is one where women are autonomous, self-contained, self-sufficient and self-perpetuating single-gender entities.

If that revelation seems aggrandized and over the top, it should. It’s extreme, because the purpose itself is extreme. When you consider that the sexes have coexisted in relative gender complementarity, to produce our very proliferate species, for a hundred thousand years, the idea and implementation of separating the sexes into independent and solitary entities is extreme. Obviously effecting this independence is an impossibility for a race of social animals like human beings. We’ve relied on cooperative efforts since our tribal beginnings and the species-beneficial psychological hardwiring of that cooperation is one trait that made us so successful in adapting to changing, dangerous, environments.

For most manosphere readers (especially MRAs) I don’t think I need to illustrate the many manifest ways that women are dependent upon the men; if not men’s generated resources and provisioning, then certainly their parental investment, companionship, emotional and sexual interest. We’re better together than we’ve ever been apart – even when the ugly mechanics of hypergamy, or male aggression, or any number of negatively perceived gender dynamics prove useful survival traits for us, there is no true independence between the sexes. There is interdependence.

This is what equalism makes a mockery of. In its striving for a homogenous goal-state of androgynous gender-parity it fails to account for where the species-success that the complementarity of the past 30,000 years has brought us. From a heroic male perspective we generally accept that no man is an island, but feminism and equalism disagree – a Strong Independent Woman® is an island,..or she will be just as soon as a man gives her her due to become so.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo Thank you for pointing out that past article. I have not made my way through your earlier archives, or your new book yet (congrats btw). I look forward to your further thoughts on the topic too. @ Martel Yes, I am indeed speaking about power in terms of the ability to influence the behavior of people. That can include “internal” influence over a person’s own behavior, but is usually focused more on “external” influence over the behavior of others. Although, as you and Rollo point out, it is often a good idea to develop internal power first in… Read more »

The Burninator
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“Independence for women meant we didn’t have to tolerate abuse anymore because we had the option to leave. It meant that if you left us, we wouldn’t be completely desperate. It meant we didn’t have to cling to you guys for support. It meant we could make decisions about our own lives. It meant we didn’t have to be “seen and not heard”. It meant we didn’t have to be a slave to a stereotype anymore. It meant we could be self-actualizing if we wanted to. It meant we could pick and choose which man we wanted to mate with.… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Cylux Thank you for that historical social and political context. I tend to focus on the social changes happening now and the effect on power balance. It is good to remember though that what happens today is always built on a history of social change too. I will be sure to add that to my analysis. @ Will S. In my experience, the most argumentative female exits and does not return when she realizes you understand that SHE is trying to change YOUR mind. Until then, if she is unreasonable, her aim is simple – argue and work to… Read more »

tom
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brave new world

Martel
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@ Tin Man: I wouldn’t be surprised if much of the economic benefit you described wouldn’t be easily countered by our unsustainable consumer debt. And that’s without the massive student loan debt, much of which was spent on useless degrees for women to “find themselves” while making college more expensive for men who would actually study something useful. @ Burminator: Censorship-free is definitely best. Trolls can be annoying, but handle them correctly and they’ll usually go away of their own accord. livingtree was better than most, but she was obviously in way over her head. We can hope that in… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Excellent point Tin Man, you’re entirely correct about the economic food chain and our contribution to it. Think America would be where it is today if it hadn’t been for the economic freedom of women? Not a chance. There’s yet another excellent reason to value women’s contribution equally – if you pay them better, they WILL SPEND MORE MONEY IN THE ECONOMY, and less of it will be yours. Probably unsustainable in the long run, but still…

livingtree2013
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Again, Furiousferrett, your hostility is getting in the way of your ability to have rational discourse. Ironic, since this page is called Rationalmale. I’ve seen very little rationality here so far. But maybe rational discourse isn’t the point here, you just want to rant. I have a job, at which I use a computer intermittently. At the end of the workday, I go home, at which time I STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO A COMPUTER, AND START PAYING ATTENTION TO MY HEALTH, MY MAN, MY FRIENDS, MY FAMILY AND MY HOME. I’m not responding to you fast enough to your insults????… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Burninator, I doubt that Tin Man intended to say that without women spending, the country would have plummeted into financial ruin. Men have always spent lots of money, but on considerably smaller range of products in comparison to women. This is elementary stuff!

Ask any CEO of any company what would happen to their bottom line if women reduced spending…. I’m pretty sure there aren’t too many who would say they’d want that to happen, nor would very many shareholders in those companies.

M3
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“As an aside, props to Rollo for keeping this place censorship free. It’s good to see feminists shot down argument by argument as opposed to seeing her disappeared by the site owner.”

What? Did you think you accidentally wandered onto HUS?

The Burninator
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If women stopped spending on non-female specific products then men would pick up the slack (food, clothing, furniture, etc). We enjoy eating too and most of us, contrary to the media’s attempt to paint us as brutes, do in fact enjoy a well kept house. No doubt women spend (understand, I’m not denying that), but to mark them as primary consumers to market to for everything, even extending that now to utility trucks and tools (where, sorry, they are NOT the primary spenders), is silly. Hell sister, you can’t even watch a commercial for a sporting goods store that sells… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Dr. Jeremy, I enjoy your comments greatly, you seem to have a rare ability to converse intelligently even when you don’t necessarily agree with the person you’re talking with, and for that I thank you. You hit on something that is very important – women do tend to focus on the areas of the power balance where they are lacking. As do men! The comments on this article, most of Rollo’s other articles, and all but a few of the men’s rights pages I’ve read, and many MANY conversations I’ve had with male friends, prove to me that far too… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Hardly, Burninator. Have you talked to any real women, maybe more than just your grandma, about how their lives were as children and young women in the 50’s? Discrimination may have been legislated away in the early 20th c, but it more than certainly was not actualized. Life in the 50’s was very very restrictive for women, but that was mostly due to family guilt, social ostracizing, and other methods of oppressing self-confidence in girls. Girls were meant to marry, that is all. Education and self-fulfillment? Have your fun right up til you marry, then forget all that fun. You… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Ah, I think I see a point in your comment, Rollo, that had previously escaped me. The power that men have you think is earned, whereas the power women have is inherent with their gender, not earned at all, and thus not worthy of any sort of respect (which we agree is earned). And so therefore to make it seem like a fair deal for you, you place the “attractiveness” criteria upon us, so it almost seems as if we earned the right to be the arbiters of sex in this society, but you know that even if we weren’t… Read more »

The Burninator
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Please, spare me the “We were all victims in the 50’s” caricature. Yes, I’ve spoken to women from then. They were/are well adjusted and love their husbands and certainly don’t sit around griping about how “oppressed” they were back then. You know why? Because they were not. Every single thing you gripe about was already taken care of, as already noted. I refuse, honestly, to even entertain having the same shaman totem being thrown in my face as being taken seriously. My great grandmother did quite well on her own, after her husband died when her kids were little, and… Read more »

The Burninator
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@M3

“What? Did you think you accidentally wandered onto HUS?”

Don’t mean to go too off topic, just curious what “HUS” means/stands for?

Martel
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To supplement Burminator’s point, we remember only the uhappy oppressed women on the 1950’s, forgetting entirely that the majority were a hell of a lot happier than most women today. There have been women (& men) who’ve had it rough during every era of history, and the unhappy ones are those we’re inclined to emphasize. Grandma who absolutely loved staying home baking cookies has been washed down the memory hole. I obviously can’t spek for Rollo here, but in answer to your response to him, we don’t consider women de facto undeserving of respect. Nonetheless, there are ways in which… Read more »

livingtree2013
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What, you are actually BLAMING women for marketers wanting to sell their shit to us?? Wow.

I know a ton of ladies who’ve gotten into hunting, and not usually of their own accord – their husbands got them into it. So congrats to you, team!

livingtree2013
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Hey, Martel, I’m not retreating. The more you guys antagonize me, the more I want to stay. If you WANT me to leave, you can just say so anytime! But I am actually enjoying the conversation, and yes I have learned things (which was my purpose for coming). I hope that, too, you have learned some things from me, but I’m not holding my breath. Here are a few things that you could learn, in response to your last post about all the dumb girls taking useless studies after having been admitted by lower standards: http://www.iza.org/conference_files/Transatlantic_2013/dickson_l8832.pdf http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/court-prepares-affirmative-action-decision-softer-standards-men-182205509.html http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node7.html http://paa2010.princeton.edu/papers/100328 I… Read more »

The Burninator
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False. I’m blaming feminism for creating a culture where the only ones deemed important enough to market to are women, despite all evidence that, hey, men spend big money too. And “I know a ton of ladies” doesn’t mean that they dominate a specific realm. That’s the problem here, you see it only through femi-glasses. Hunting is a male dominated milieu, regardless of how many “tons” of women you know doing it. Always has been, at least here in these united States. I can count on one hand the women hunters I know, but cannot count on all of my… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Yah no, I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you there Rollo. If “nature” were the arbiter, the standard wouldn’t be different culture by culture.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201010/the-truth-about-beauty

You want women who look trim and fit because you life in the land of plenty. As I keep reminding you.

deti
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HUS = Hooking Up Smart. Susan Walsh’s blog for upper middle class and middle class women between the ages of 18 and 30 where SW and her commenters give each other pointers on how to engage in serial monogamy/have casual sex until they are ready for marriage. A few other points. Living Tree, women were not victims in the 50s. Women worked, voted, married, and took care of their families. Or they did none of those things if they didn’t want to. The 1950s was not full of women chained to stoves and pregnant with their 11th child. About the… Read more »

livingtree2013
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@Burninator, thats cute that you think I’m a “young” feminist. I’m 45…
My mom was a 2nd wave feminist from the 60’s though, of the moralist variety.

I can’t wait for the insults on that one!

Martel
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“’Living Tree said somewhere that women deeply and truly love men who support them emotionally. Umm, no. Women do not love men who support them emotionally. Women seethe with contempt at men who support them emotionally, because to a woman, “man who supports me emotionally” means “simpering touchy-feely beta who’s so in touch with his feminine side’.” Slight modification, they theoretically love “supportive” men but give it up for the opposite. Sure, there’s some positive feelings for “supportive” men (as long as they know their place and don’t try anything), but the kind of “love” WE want is reserved for… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Besides the fact, Burn, you totally ignored the point of what I said, which was that it wasn’t a legal oppression that women in the 50s labored under, I don’t think there’s been any lack of legal freedom for women for a very long time in the free world. It was strictly social oppression. Of course I know that there was, and still are, lots of people (even women!) who love their stereotypes and love the moral guidance of the church or their peers telling them how to behave, and they will fight tooth and nail to hold onto them… Read more »

deti
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Living tree:

No one here thinks you’re a devil. The problem is that you think you know much more than you actually do. You think you know things that just aren’t so.

livingtree2013
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Ya Martel I totally get that, and I appreciate you’ve taken the time to talk rationally with me. I wish I had the time to respond to more of your points, but most of your comments (and the comments of all the others here) are so loaded with things I’d like to talk about with you that I can only cherry-pick because, like I said – I’m working here! Answering every point you guys make would be more than a 24-hr a day job! I’m overwhelmed. If you have any specific points you’d like to talk about (calmly please!) please… Read more »

Martel
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@ livingtree: It’s no surprise that women are excelling academically when lower education is dominated by female teachers who view boys as defective girls. Everything from the elimation or regulation of recess (such as organized play instead of just letting them go), to the “sit still & listen” approach to learning, to an emphasis away from hands-on learning, to the emphasis on “cooperative learning”, to banning any references to weapons or violence (getting expelled for a gun-shaped pop tart, etc.), to drugging the crap out of the poor little bastards turns males off to education. But STEM subjects are still… Read more »

Martel
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“Burn, you totally ignored the point of what I said, which was that it wasn’t a legal oppression that women in the 50s labored under, I don’t think there’s been any lack of legal freedom for women for a very long time in the free world. It was strictly social oppression. “ I won’t ignore it, then. There’s a FUNDAMENTAL difference between legal oppression and “social oppression”. You’re entirely correct that the opinions of others have a profound difference on how we behave. Regardless, although being made fun of and getting thrown in jail both suck, the latter is a… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Hmm, another interesting point Rollo. I go back to my earlier point about earned respect, and I am of the opinion that ALL respect must be earned, you shouldn’t just get it because you exist. But I will argue, as a woman who has had her books carried and who has also earned real respect, that I know now that what you were trained to do was not respect women. You were trained to coddle them. I don’t know who gave you said training, but they were wrong to do so, because it is neither respectful nor does it foster… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Well, whatever Burn, I think you’re just choosing to see as a negative what really isn’t. Marketers will do anything to sell more stuff.

Does having a female in a commercial selling hunting gear make men not want to buy it? No. Does it make women want to buy it? Maybe. So did it cost anything? No, it in fact increased the potential sales market simply by deviating from an established stereotype.

What company’s shareholders wouldn’t love that? And that group, not feminists, is who these companies care about appealing to.

livingtree2013
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Oh jeez, Deti, we wouldn’t want you guys to have to hold back on being offensive, would we?! Cuz that would be unprofessional, er, no.. wait.. I find it really telling that you guys can only figure out how to exist in polar extremes. Either you are “a manly man!!” or a total pussy. Emotional support is contemptible? Only for a douchebag who thinks in black and white stereotypes it is. Do you find men who study philosophy to be faggy too? It IS possible, I swear, to be both supportive and masculine. I SWEAR TO YOU. If you find… Read more »

livingtree2013
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FFS, did I stumble into a support group for beta men who’ve been cheated on or left by women for alpha males? Would more sex make it all better?

I don’t know a single female who fits that description, and I know plenty who have supportive, yet masculine, husbands. It CAN be done you know. Maybe you just have to grow up a bit first though.

How old are you guys? (I told you mine…)

Martel
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Furthermore, on the different standards of attraction between the sexes (on which Rollo has written extensively), what men find attractive is deemed superficial, what women find attractive is considered to be perfectly reasonable. We feel sorry for the fat girls who can’t get a date far more than we feel sorry for the video game nerd. So when you said earlier that the “kicks ass in the boardroom” stuff is for you and not for us, be that as it may, that’s not how it generally comes across. If I’m not attracted to a woman’s careen accomplishments, I’m “superficial” or… Read more »

livingtree2013
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I can’t help wonder if maybe its just that you guys are making really, really bad choices in the women you mate with. Which does happen. I made really bad choices when I was in my 20s too, I get it.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ livingtree2103 But tell me please, objectively – do you really think the power to mete out sex and carry a baby (which is a fundamentally base, and any woman can do it) is more valuable than the power to manipulate our society via law, finance, and politics? At the most basic level, there are only two important goals for any organism – survive and reproduce. In usual discussion, we are all pretty clear how the power of things like money, resources, laws, and political status help us survive. Arguably, for various biological and evolved reasons, men tend to gravitate… Read more »

Martel
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All of us here have probably made some dumb mating choices, some of us have recovered from them better than others.

That doesn’t alter the validity of anything we say, either way. Truth depends not on the voice of he who delivers it.

Martel
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@ Dr. J: Beautiful! Bravo!

As if creating, nuturing, and fostering the next generation of humanity is somehow unimportant.

The Burninator
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“@Burninator, thats cute that you think I’m a “young” feminist. I’m 45…” Reading comprehension dear. Go back and re-read what I posted that made you respond as you just did. There’s a crucial “OR” that you missed, as well as a n easy deduction based on context. Ah heck, I’ll save you the effort. I said you are either “closer to my age” OR you were young and raised under the tutelage of a femi in her 40’s or 50’s. Now, apply logic to that statement. If you were raised by a femi in her 40’s or 50’s OR you… Read more »

livingtree2013
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BTW, Martel, women don’t want hours of long heartfelt conversation with men (once in a while maybe). That’s what we have our girls for. We want emotional support from you in the sense that, if we tell you, dear husband, that something is important to us, that you give a shit maybe, and definitely not invalidate us for it by telling us, in any way, that its not important. Which incidentally, you almost all do, and often. You’ll generate a woman’s resentment faster for invalidating her than almost any other offense (except cheating, maybe). Do you guys do that to… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
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Consumption does not entail strength. Production does, particularly of technological and military goods, and the organization and willpower to use them.
Compare the Consumerist societies, sans US, to the central planning of the Soviet Union, and make some estimates of how long they last.

furiousferrett
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“Again, Furiousferrett, your hostility is getting in the way of your ability to have rational discourse. Ironic, since this page is called Rationalmale. I’ve seen very little rationality here so far. But maybe rational discourse isn’t the point here, you just want to rant. ” No way. My logic is solid. In short, you want to rig the game by not having to compete in your gender’s arena in the traditional biological sound ways. You are not biological good enough to secure the high resources that come with locking up an alpha thus you feminists rigged the game to secure… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Uhhuh, right, so what’s your issue then Martel? We don’t want to be socially oppressed anymore, and that’s…bad? Or is it that you don’t want us to be referring to “our rights” when we are talking about feminist issues because it has nothing to do with rights anymore…? If the latter, I agree. Its not about rights or victimization anymore (except when we are talking rape, but that’s a different sort of victim than we’re talking here, and I do NOT want to start on that tangent here). If you are paying attention, which you seem to be, you will… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Right Martel, which only serves to illustrate the point I made like 50 posts ago about getting more men into elementary school education! Or even in the administrative/bureaucratic positions which dictate the standards of the school system. Both of which are weeping for more men. But you don’t feel its manly or important enough to teach children, so who does it? Women. You don’t even think its important enough to run for trustee, so who’s standards dictate? Women. I mean if you care enough about it, you’ll take more direct action. Right? I guess you just expect that women will… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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“Oh, and by the way, you won’t ever meet a high value woman in a nightclub. You wont meet a high value woman at all until you understand what actually makes a woman high value, which you honestly do not.”

I’ll be the judge of that.

livingtree2013
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Huh? Rollo I’m not sure I know which of my comments this link was sent in response to, I assume the one about the standard of hotness being dependent on culture. I’m not saying that because waaaa, I’m fat, I feel left out. I’m saying it because I’m right. I’m not fat, but even though I AM old, I still have a collection of amazing men trying to woo me away from my even more amazing boyfriend, so I’m not insulted. Your taunts don’t threaten me in the least. Anyway, I can’t read that book now, but it does look… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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“underpaid jobs like teaching”
now I know you’re just having a larf.

Martel
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@ livingtree: You can get to my blog by simply clicking on my name next to the hammer.

However, I’ve addressed the misconception of “rights” here at my blog already: http://alphaisassumed.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/the-right-rights/

More to follow at another time. For now I’ve stuff to do.

Tam the Bam
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“I’m not sure I know which of my comments this link was sent in response to”
Copy a diagnostic chunk of the rogue text, Ctrl-F and ^.
Magic.

livingtree2013
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Well yes, Martel, because so many men ARE threatened by a woman competing with them. Not because they worry they might lose to a woman – which most do fear – but because of the very things we’ve discussed here. A woman in the boardroom represents something about the power balance that makes men subconsciously uncomfortable, even many progressive ones. I read Rollo’s article “Shallow”, I had a good laugh about it, and I posted a comment on it. See if you can find it! He was so annoyed by my post that he wrote a whole article dedicated to… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo, This is an inherent power advantage women have over men. That’s not to say Men don’t have other power advantages over women, but the advantages he enjoys aren’t endemic to his sex by default, he must earn those advantages first in order to be able to leverage them with women. I agree. The distinctions among the types of power and the sources they come from are important for men to understand. Sometimes men can be confused, overwhelmed, or taken off guard because women’s power over them “feels different” than power dynamics they are used to negotiating with other… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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Messed up the html… Here is the link:
Why People Say Yes to Sex!

livingtree2013
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Ya of course, Dr J, not diminishing the importance of reproduction, but I’m trying to make the point here that as we have evolved economically and culturally, our mortality rate has PLUMMETED, and that was the POINT!! How much effort has been spent on curing cancer and TB and smallpox? How much money has been spent developing long-range weaponry so we didn’t have to send in ground troops? How much time has been spent eliminating all the extreme industrial safety risks that killed millions? The population of the planet grows by 25,000 every DAY. Its not a worry anymore. So… Read more »

livingtree2013
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I can’t speak for HUS, Rollo, I’ve never been there, but I post pretty routinely on policymic, huffpost and jezebel and i never find that rational conversation is censored. Its only comments that are excessively provocative, deliberate trolling, that gets censored. I have mixed feelings about censorship, because I love the free speech aspect, but as long as you don’t have an agenda (ie. policymic), the censorship can be used to keep the quality of the discussion high or on topic. On a site like huffpost, you can see how quickly the quality of the conversation degrades to a pissing… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Policymic cuts posters that violate the rules of conduct, which include personal insult and violence, and I don’t think that’s bad. If anyone came here to your site and spoke violently towards you, you would be well within your jurisdiction to escort them out and I wouldn’t hold it against you.

But you all seem like (mostly) you’re quite capable of humiliating an opponent into departing on their own…

livingtree2013
Guest

Wha…? Burn, you’re confused. I said those things AFTER you said you thought younger feminists (under 30) are cute and misguided. To which I responded with some truth. I hope you aren’t actually resorting to correcting my typos and logic faults in order to demonstrate my maturity level. Cuz that would be kind of like admitting defeat. You may not have noticed but that post you referred to, it was about my 50th here, and only was directed at the more pitifully ill-founded and increasingly angry arguments being made at me without responding to any of my points, and the… Read more »

livingtree2013
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Ferrett, take it easy… I don’t live in America, I don’t know what your women are like. I hear quite often though that they’re really fat and selfish and bitchy. Maybe you want to consider sourcing elsewhere? Anyway… “Life isn’t fair for the vast majority of people. Most are born in middling circumstances and you have to scratch and claw your way up. The ‘fair’ way is actually what our found fathers said “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”. That’s all you get. You take those three things and make the best of it. You don’t rig all the… Read more »

New Yorker
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Having just read this comment thread, I want to again thank Rollo for allowing such a diverse discussion. LivingTree, you seem like an intelligent, practical woman. Why are you defending the feminists, most of whom are hellbent on fake victimization of women. In today’s world, there is zero reason for feminism. A woman can have anything she wants as long as she understands the tradeoffs. Just because those tradeoffs exist (e.g. Career vs. Family) and one can’t have it all does not mean that the world is unfair or prejudiced against women. Modern feminism is nothing more than unfiltered whining… Read more »

furiousferrett
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“LivingTree, you seem like an intelligent, practical woman. Why are you defending the feminists, most of whom are hellbent on fake victimization of women.” “Anyway, computer time is over, I”m going curling and beer drinking now” She’s probably Scandinavian. They are no where near as bad and horrible as American feminists. They actually do believe in equality between the sexes not feminine domination like the American girls. It’s still a pipe dream but it’s not the total toxic environment of the US. However, multiculturalism is coming for them in Sweden and Norway. It’s a much greater threat to their country’s… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@livingtree2013 November 20th, 2013 at 8:09 pm For gods sake, this is getting exhausting. Jeremy, WE DON’T THINK WE DON’T NEED MEN!!! I’m getting tired of saying that. Will someone please tell me where and how it is that you all got the idea that women are actively trying to exclude men from society (I mean, not the shitty ones)? Because I just don’t see it, anywhere, except maybe as a defense mechanism in an argument. This is a terrible habit some people with elements of solipsism fall into, presuming the personal when someone else is speaking of the general.… Read more »

Tin Man
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I have to admit, I could only get through so many of the comments (or should I say Friday Night Fights) and then just had to quit. Interesting dialogue though – but I will say this again… I know we can’t legally keep the woman of the clubhouse, but by engaging them, you only encourage their continued participation. And for further clarification of my point…about the economic push woman provided…we have the become the number one consumer nation in the world (which is not necessarily a good thing) — and yes, Men would purchase things, I like suits and sport… Read more »

Tin Man
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BTW Rollo — congrats on another fine article — it appears this one struck a cord also. As always, good reading, and very entertaining comments.

Tam the Bam
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Tam the Bam
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Well now. The kind persons from MiniTru are on a similar wavelength to our loquacious Canadienne. Not required on voyage, hombres, unless we bloody well buck up our ideas and make ourselves more docile, obliging and unconditionally giving, i.e. pet-like. Why can’t a man be more like a .. nice fluffy cat, eh? Although naturally, being the Beeb, they have absolutely no fucking clue about sciency stuff, and therefore misinterpret the findings in the preferred direction of femarchy. As the boffin said ” this is of limited use in understanding human fertility” (added bonus of insulting and irrelevant stock photo… Read more »

bob
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bob
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” the ultimate purpose of feminism is rooted in securing (by social engineering and legal force) an optimized hypergamy for women.”

An optimized hypergamy AGAINST women. A woman blinded by her vagina is useless.

Kate
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Kate
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LOLOL Give ’em hell, living tree! They love it as much as you do wink (Not to mention the blog hits.)

Tin Man
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Rollo…might be worth a blog post to turn the tables a bit. You’ve written excellent articles about “woman” — it might be interesting to take a look at the “stages of a Man in years” — and the phases a Man goes through in his life with regard to “women”. Because, now, because I’m a “man of certain age”, have kids, had a wife, been with more than a couple women in the life, getting my shit back together (including my health, body, finances, mission) – I really have less desire to do the “dance” and chase. I guess that… Read more »

Jeremy
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I’m waiting to hear a justification from the women for government-guaranteed female independence, to the point of taxation of men. No government-guaranteed mother-of-your-children is ever provided to the men, particularly the men who die in wars for those same women. How can women justify assuaging their fears by using the power of the state to force men to support them, while men are forced to die for the state with no chance of ever having children?

TarzanWannaBe
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Jeremy, thank you for that. While you are “waiting to hear a justification” for the humanity of men being ignored/exploited in favor of women’s pursuit to secure resources for themselves and ‘their’ children, I’m waiting to connect the dots of future news stories about vigilante justice. Men also have children. My son is 10 years old. The thought that someday, before he’s even 25, I could see him leaving the house to go to a scrub job he’s locked for into years because of some $700 a month court-ordered child support payment is horrifying. (“She said it was an accident.”… Read more »

Cylux
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I’m somewhat curious to know living tree, what sort of feminist are you?

New Yorker
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I like the point regarding male contraception. This will be a huge fight at some point. There is just too much of this nonsense happening for it not to become a movement. We are already seeing a changing tide in regard to custody rights for fathers. It is only a matter of time before the de facto confiscation of male sperm by scummy women gets brought under the microscope.

Emma the Emo
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I heard someone saying women’s work is still not appreciated enough. I know everyone has heard of it, but how much status a job gets is not primarily a function of what sex does it the most (at least not in the western society). Garbadge collecting is mostly male, but is not very high status.

Gurney Halleck
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The point that livingtree consistently avoided addressing is that feminists did not truly seek independence itself — they also sought, and continue to seek and receive, plenty of coddling and special treatment along the way. Not many in the manosphere disapprove of a woman seeking a high status career if that is where her heart lies, but if that high status career is attained through achievement in a public school system in which the curriculum, mode of instruction, staffing, etc, all happen to be more favorable to female students, and through gendered affirmative action, etc, then we have an issue.… Read more »

Tin Man
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Forced equality is not true equality. Few people will argue about true equality, there is logic behind the argument. But celebrating weakness (not strength) and trying to make things “fair” only makes us all weaker.

LiveFearless
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LT wrote “Men remind me constantly that this gender disparity exists in the school system because teachers’ pay is so bad (yet again, devaluing the work that women do), and the fact that men work for status and money, not for personal reward or social contribution (which is womanly)” This is hilarious. Public school teachers in Los Angeles (LAUSD) earn an average of $67,000 per year (2012 data, look it up). Each of the elementary and middle school teachers that I know here have a salary that exceeds $80,000 per year. Richard Dreyfuss wants good teachers too (10 second clip)… Read more »

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[…] it was throughout last week’s commentary about the branding of the Strong Independent Woman® social template offered and reinforced by the feminist mindset, and endorsed wholesale by […]

livingtree2013
Guest

Good morning gents! Hope you all had a pleasant weekend away from your troubles. Tam, your first up – I’m not implying that teaching in general is a low-paid profession. If you read the whole thread in context rather than cherry picking the words from certain sentences, you’d understand the point in its context. Teaching at the pre-school/kindergarten level is one of the lowest paid professions in America. Elementary is higher, secondary is even higher, and post-secondary is the highest. You need the same teaching degree to teach p/k, elem, and secondary, but they are paid differently according to “importance”.… Read more »

Jeremy
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The point is that male-dominated professions just pay better, because you guys think your time is worth more.

…said the person with no understanding of economics.

livingtree2013
Guest

Good article Martel, and I agree 100%. I would agree more if it were mathematically possible. I’ve ranted on this topic many times! We rely too heavily on the concept of rights in this culture. The only natural right we have is the right to exist (the liberty, as you call it, to do whatever we need to in order to exist). And for that right, we have the collateral responsibility to “respect” (though you know I hate the word) the right of others to exist too, and that means no-one has the right to take anything that belongs to… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

SPECTACULAR post Dr. Jeremy (the one about negotiated intimacy, that is – I haven’t yet made it through all of the 20+ new posts on this article since I was here on Friday).

livingtree2013
Guest

@ New Yorker – thank you for the compliment. I try to keep a calm head and make an effort to understand things from other points of view, even if they don’t reciprocate. I gather it wasn’t apparently from my comments, but I’m not defending feminists. I don’t know them all personally, I wouldn’t even dream of trying to do such a thing because I know some of them are terrible people. I WILL, however, go to the death to defend FEMINISM, despite its misuse and abuse by so many, because I understand the importance of its values. I agree… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

No, Ferrett, I told you guys already I’m Canadian. I dont have a clue what American feminists are like in comparison to the rest of the world’s feminists, but it sure sounds like you have your hands full. I mean, I know girls up here too that call themselves feminists but still think that men should pay for everything and buy them presents to show how much they value them. It makes me want to puke.

But they are in the minority. Most women I know here are quite legitimately independent.

Ana Serene
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I would have so much more respect for MRAs if they manned up, stopped drinking their koolaid, and faced the reality out there about themselves/men: http://www.sheckys.com/2011/04/04/my-boyfriends-unemployment-is-affecting-our-relationship/

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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I would have so much more respect for MRAs if they manned up, stopped drinking their koolaid, and faced the reality out there about themselves/men:

It’s a good thing you’re not speaking to MRAs, they might laugh at your obvious troll. As it stands you’re commenting in a forum of men, who are much more likely to ignore your facile demands.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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Good article Martel, and I agree 100%. I would agree more if it were mathematically possible. I’ve ranted on this topic many times! We rely too heavily on the concept of rights in this culture. The only natural right we have is the right to exist (the liberty, as you call it, to do whatever we need to in order to exist). And for that right, we have the collateral responsibility to “respect” (though you know I hate the word) the right of others to exist too, and that means no-one has the right to take anything that belongs to… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

SO i think, Jeremy, that in spite of all our arguing here, we are all actually talking about the same problem, just from different angles. Women largely AREN’T actually independent, like the meme says, and like many of them would have you believe. We recognize that, and are attempting to fix that. But a lot of that is because there are many, MANY parameters that reinforce that in our social structure, that just can’t seem to be fixed easily. Not just in the welfare system, I mean in our daily lives. Me personally, I’m too stubborn to let any one,… Read more »

Martel
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“I also do not have the “right” to be provided with work, nor do I have the right to earn money, or the right to keep it once it is given, because the money I “earned” is not actually mine. It belongs to the state, which is a lending institution – you see their mark upon it, do you not? They “loaned” it to me, for a fee (my labour) so that my life might be easier, but by law they are entitled to recall their currency at any time. “ I disagree in that we’re not allowed to use… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

@Tin Man, I totally agree with everything you said, I did not mean my comment to be taken as a positive spin either, just to say that we both take part in the economy. But consumerism is an escape for us, we are ever more stimulated and capitalized upon, encouraged to spend and spend and spend, to alleviate boredom or distract us from our unpleasant realities. It is so much more true for women than men. Women almost always buy stuff to stifle their feelings of depression, like having more stuff will make us into better people. I don’t think… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

Absolutely Jeremy, many women still fear ending up old, single and childless, mainly because we get our social approval from whether or not we have a man and/or a baby. I’m sure men also suffer from this discrimination, maybe more so. Honestly, I’m glad to see that there are starting to be some men resisting this pressure from society and going it alone, I think its like 30 years overdue. I just wish it wasn’t being done out of anger, but I get that you have to go through the anger phase, and its probably been repressed for so long… Read more »

Random Angeleno
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Random Angeleno
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@LT
Yes you do need men as you keep stating you do. But that sentence is not complete. You need men to go against their biology. The “go against their biology” is the part that you refuse to acknowledge, but it underlies nearly every one of your arguments. A million years of evolution will not be denied let alone reversed in a short time.

livingtree2013
Guest

@bob, I can’t agree with you on the optimized hypergamy concept – that may have been the intention, even subversively, but it just didn’t happen that way. Women who actively seek a higher quality of life by their own efforts find that they have less mating choices than “lesser” women if they engage in hypergamic behavior, because like it or not, most men still prefer to engage in hypogamic behavior. It would be ideal if the freedom of women to pursue higher education and income would have collaterally resulted in men also being pushed to higher levels to compete for… Read more »

Morpheus
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Morpheus
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Or maybe that they just don’t have what it takes to compete for a really high-quality woman anymore because they are too far out of their league. I’m not sure which, maybe a combination of both. Consequently, men are not bothering to make themselves seem attractive to high quality women, and becoming depressed and angry about it. LT, I suspect this paragraph is rife with solipsism. First, define for me “high-quality woman”. In order to make your definition meaningful, RESTRICT your list to 2-3 criteria, absolutely no more than 3. The point is to see how your prioritize characteristics/traits in… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

OK Jeremy, in answer to your question about the government-guaranteed female independence, here is a question I want you to ponder before we can discuss this fully…. bear with me to the end, ok? Please? I’m asking this seriously, I want to hear your POV on this question. We “know” that the vast majority of welfare recipients are single mothers. Lets just skip over all the blame, and the rationalization, and the long-term effects, and all that crap, and go straight to a hypothetical analysis based on the content of this conversation only. You guys keep saying that you DO… Read more »

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