Shallow

Recently Vox had a not unexpected run-in with the ladies over at Aunt Giggles’ Beta Emporium regarding one of my favorite feminine social conventions. There’s a very definitive feminine ownership of certain terms that the feminine imperative uses to maintain its primacy. Like any good ideology, control of the messaging is vital to perpetuating the feminine social frame. Thus terms like “shallow” and “superficial” are contextually defined from a feminine perspective and, through shaming, serve to enforce feminine primacy.

There are a lot of applications women will use “shallow” for, but the primary use is to shame men’s natural arousal/attraction cues being based on physicality. As I detailed in The Wall, women have a life long relationship with the impending decay of their only real agency over men – their physicality and their sexual access.

Why should physical appearance be a criteria for anything? The operative question; Why should the importance Men place on the physical always be characterized as “superficial”? Why is it that a man is “shallow” for following his biological imperative, while a woman seeking commitment is considered “prudent”?

Because women are only acting on behalf of their own biological imperatives when they do so. Like all feminine social conventions, if men can be made to believe that a woman’s best interest is actually his own, she retains control of the frame. How do they effect this? Repeat it over and over until men identify with it and it becomes a societal norm. This then places men into a state of internal conflict – they’re not supposed to want hot women for fear of being deemed “shallow”, but yet they always seem to find themselves attracted to, and aroused by, the most physically ideal women they encounter.

Controlled Selection

So, how, and why, then does this social convention work? Why is it necessary? The simple answer is that the latent purpose of shaming men into denying their own biological imperative better serves to maintain women’s control of hypergamous sexual selectivity.

The cold hard reality all women face is that, in the sexual market place, they are always a depriciating asset. In a biological sense, a woman’s sexual marektability decreases as she ages, but even when this isn’t universally the case, the insecurity that comes from realizing ths decline is still present for women. With effort, a woman can be sexually desirable at 40, but the internalized anxiety she experiences from having to remain sexually competitive with women 20 years younger doesn’t diminish – at some point she’ll lose her edge.

In order to counter this dynamic a social mechanic had to be developed. Men would need to be shamed for their biological preoccupation with younger, sexier, more sexually available women that they naturally, and observably, prefer. If men could be socially and psychologically convinced that physicality (their primary determinant for attraction & arousal) was less important than intellect, integrity, or any other esoteric, moralized virtue (or the perception of it at least), this then (theoretically) levels the playing field of intra-sexual competition among women. By making his importance of physicality “shallow”, women of all shapes and sizes could be instilled with “inner beauty”. It’s what’s on the inside that counts and any man to disagree is “shallow”, “superficial” and thus undeserving of their intimacy.

With this social convention in place women can have their cake and eat it too. Sexual selectivity in their youth and a realitive assurance of that same selectivity in securing a long term commitment of male provisioning as they age. Social convention circumvents biology and women retain the frame. It’s only when “scientists” such as myself pull back the curtain and show you the Wizard of Oz that men are labelled “misogynists” or “superficial.” It’s the perfect convention; one that even in revealing it still shames the one doing so – or at least calls into question his motives for doing so.

“Shallow” at Home

How important does the role of attraction play in a relationship? The funniest thing is you can apply the same idea to women with regards to a man’s level of success. If a guy cheats on his girlfriend or wife after she ‘lets herself go’ and puts on 20 extra pounds he’s called ‘shallow’, yet if a woman leaves a guy who’s out of work and/or lacks a certain level of ambition she’s just “being prudent” or doing what’s in her best interests and her children’s. It’s a man’s biological imperative to mate with as many fit and attractive females, while it’s a woman’s imperative to choose the male who is best capable of satisfying hypergamy and providing her with long term security, and by default to ultimately share in parental investment. But, feminized society calls a man ‘shallow’ and a woman ‘wise’ for embracing the sexual strategies and arousal cues nature has dealt for them. So it’s my advice that we stop accepting this epithet of ‘shallow’ as some kind of punishment for simply being a man.

I can remember a poll thread on SoSuave we started that went something like, “What do you notice first about a girl?” and went on with physical attributes like Boobs, Ass, Legs, Hair, etc. The thread basically devolved into a ‘you’re just shallow’ flame-fest, but it was fascinating to see the pre-set responses from the teenage male members. Answers that didn’t even apply to the topic like, “I’m really only interested in her ‘great personality'” were common from the more plugged-in responses. This idea of not coming off as ‘shallow’ even in a relatively anonymous forum just proves how endemic this notion of ‘shallowness’ really is.

Embrace your testosterone, really, it’s OK. No one faults a woman for not being attracted to an ambitionless, unsuccessful guy. You shouldn’t feel guilty for admitting to a preference for a girls ass or the size of her chest.

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Trini
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Trini

Great post Rollo. I have been going through this same thing in my marriage. I am shamed and brow beaten for wanting my wife to do better physically. We have had many arguments over this issue and nothing I say is getting through to her. She just use the shaming tactic. Over the years I have tried to supress it, but my need for physical attraction always pops back up. It’s then I discovered your blog and you were highlighting stuff I was feeling but just could not know how to express. I have stopped saying anything for the last… Read more »

Peregrine John
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Peregrine John

Trini, check out Athol’s site for guidance. In short, your own physical improvement is a step in the right direction, and with just a couple more things, you will have hand too firm even for the Mighty Hamster to ignore.

LD
Guest
LD

I’d like to have options but 90% of women have nothing but their bodies. A smart goodhearted girl would be the ideal. Not the real alas.

Martel
Guest
Martel

Our “shallowness” is usually anything but. If a woman knows you’re attracted to her being in shape and then inflates into whalehood, it says a lot about her.

First, she takes you for granted. Second, she doesn’t give a damn about what you might want from her. Third, she’s not healthy.

So it’s “shallow” to feel less affection for somebody who doesn’t give a damn about my feelings?

Trini
Guest
Trini

Thanks John..I am already into fitness so that’s not an issue for me.I keep myself in shape all year round. I always had the attention of ladies and have been approached by some over the years..I have never cheated. But to be honest I am now understanding why some guys have women on the side..That thought is actually getting comfortable for me now as I see the Matrix more clearly. I have to get my money game up. Her attitute that I should be gratefull and her sense of entitlement is what’s starting to annoy me. Grateful for what? I… Read more »

Big Ern
Guest

Tell a short man that only men are shallow re: appearance.

Martel
Guest
Martel

Big Ern: Or a man with a small dick.

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

This is a direct result of women wanting to me more like men. The more fat, rich and masculine they become, the more effort they have to put into convincing men to deny their natural biological impulses.

I was born in the early 70’s so I don’t know this firsthand, but I can only imagine that 60 years ago there was much less shaming going on.

muscleman
Guest

I keep saying this but it bears repeating – the world war of today is psychological and women are, by nature, better equipped. You can train yourself to fight fire with fire, but most don’t and so tactics like this persist. It’s also an alpha/beta weeding strategy though (shit test). Any guy dutifully acquiescing to ‘you’re being shallow’ is LJBF’ing himself. It’s funny because it allows sites like hotchickswithdouchebags to persist where people make fun of these ‘couples’, yet a lot of guys wish they were ‘that guy’ who could get ‘that girl’.

Pedro
Guest
Pedro

The funny thing is that good looking women have better personalities that fat women. The fatties think they have a good personality, just because they are disgusting.

MattW
Guest

It seems women are more and more only giving lip-service to commitment. They throw that “commitment” away when it’s convenient for them. Were that not the case I would agree that their mission to find it is prudent based on my belief that healthy and intact families are essential to society’s well-being.

M3
Guest

I find the whole concept amusing considering what has been going down the last few weeks wrt to hypergamy and female nature, and talk of it’s male equivalent whatever it’s called (femogamy?) and how they are both natural factors in our bio wiring.

The whole argument in the sphere was not ‘women and hypergamy are evil and immoral’.. it was society celebrates and removes any impediment to the female version while shackling, deriding and vilifying the other.. as this post reiterates.

Younger. Hotter. TIghter. = Shallow
Hawter. More Powerful. More Successful. Richer. = You Go GrrrrlFraaand

Stingray
Guest

If only men are *shallow* then why are things like those string bikinis the girls are wearing even an option? If women truly believed that men were attracted to a good personality then the world would be full of the most well behaved, funny and warm girls.

taterearl
Guest

Since women possess the almighty uterus…finding a man who isn’t a loser is not shallow since they need someone who possesses the power to keep children alive.

And since they possess said uterus they should do everything in their power to stay fit and trim. An aged, overweight, or a lotsa cocka uterus doesn’t work too well.

Days of Broken Arrows
Guest
Days of Broken Arrows

Calling men shallow is worse than framing a debate with feminist-speak. It’s actually a form of projection. Building on what Big Ern wrote, above, it’s women who set height, salary, and educational qualifications on dating Web site. There is no male equivalent to this, even with weight, because men know some women can carry and extra 20 pounds and look fine, some can’t. Women don’t seem to realize that a low salary earner might be making his money in dividends because he knew how to save. Or that height might be determined by factors other than genetics. Or that a… Read more »

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

“If women truly believed that men were attracted to a good personality then the world would be full of the most well behaved, funny and warm girls.” So true. You DO NOT see dozens of national magazines and TV shows dedicated to teaching women how to carry on a lively and stimulating conversation. No, it’s all shoes and make-up and clothes and hair and yoga and shit. Women spend 90% of their waking hours obsessing about making themselves physically attractive and attention-getting, and in so doing have helped create and support several multi-billion dollar industries dedicated to beauty and fashion… Read more »

FuriousFerret
Guest
FuriousFerret

Only men with options are ‘shallow’.

My observations are that men are less shallow in that they will settle for extremely average than women. I’m constantly surprised by the number of decently good looking guys are with plain janes. Well until they open their mouths, then I know why.

Phinn
Guest
Phinn

* ATTRACTED to thin and fit women.

taterearl
Guest

Just remember guys why when a gal whines that all men want are supermodels…you can tell her all women want are billionaires.

I’m sure the irony will go over her head, but it’s good for a reaction.

Trini
Guest
Trini

@ Taterearl- You are soo correct..They make that statement all the time which just annoys me now.I always say there is a happy medium, and we don’t want supermodels..So the default response when a guy suggest his girl loose weight is that he wants a supermodel. smh..They never think there is a healthy weight range between supermodel small and overweight/obesity..

The Shocker
Guest
The Shocker

human beings had sex before books = mind blown (human beings played attraction games before english too playas) I love really smart girls who act girly. Like, I like to be calling girls ‘little bunny’ within 20 minutes and have them take off their shoes and sit on my lap, it’s so much better when they comply and participate in becoming my toy. This works best on really smart girls who aren’t nerd oriented, like talking about books or putting up intellectual convo blockers. I guess a lot of rocks for brains guys would call a girl like that ‘dumb,’… Read more »

taterearl
Guest

I’ll never consider it shallow of telling a woman to keep herself in shape. I work my ass off to stay in shape as a man because I know it benefits me with being more attractive plus it’s a good stress reliever. Plus I like the gym anyway. I walk the walk to back the talk. My question is….how many women start to let themselves go after their man lets himself go? Either physically or sliding into beta mode. The man is the leader and I’d guess she’s just following his path of self sabotage. A woman doesn’t live in… Read more »

Bully
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Bully

As I say to fat women that complain about the state of things.. where were you when I was busting my ass in the gym at 2am because that was the only time I could work out?

JS
Guest
JS

Being called shallow is a good place to accept and amplify.
Say, yep, I am so shallow, when I see a thin girl with a huge rack I get an enormous erection and my pants explode like the Hulk.
I’ll bet you get a chuckle and a playful arm punch.

Martel
Guest
Martel

If a woman got on YouTube complaining about how she can’t get a guy because she’s fat or ugly, sure, she’d get some crap, but she’d also get a lot of sympathy.

If some dude got on YouTube complaining about how he can’t keep a woman because of his puny package, the response from women would be complete, total, and outright derision. No guys would come to his defense, either.

Beta females have plenty of shoulders to cry on. Beta males, not so much.

itsme
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itsme

Alpha_BetaSpectrum
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Alpha_BetaSpectrum

@Taterearl I’ll never consider it shallow of telling a woman to keep herself in shape. I work my ass off to stay in shape as a man because I know it benefits me with being more attractive plus it’s a good stress reliever. Plus I like the gym anyway. I walk the walk to back the talk. My question is….how many women start to let themselves go after their man lets himself go? Either physically or sliding into beta mode. The man is the leader and I’d guess she’s just following his path of self sabotage. A woman doesn’t live… Read more »

Wilson
Guest
Wilson

Yeah, DNA expression is a pretty deep criterion, and appearance even provides clues to character and intelligence, while a woman who is interested in “a doctor” might not give a shit about the guy personally. Granted, within their standard men will tend to have sex with virtually any willing woman, so there is some truth to the criticism if by “shallow” you mean “too indiscriminate” (and this does indeed pose a commitment risk for women, whose fading looks could soon disqualify them), but the word is usually used by women in a context that really means “not indiscriminate enough”.

Emma the Emo
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Emma the Emo

I’m attracted to ambitionless unsuccessful guys. Therefore I deserve a guy who is attracted to fatness and will tolerate it in me.

Emma the Emo
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Emma the Emo

Jokes aside, both sexes are at least somewhat shallow and that’s that. What we notice first about someone of the opposite sex doesn’t have to be deep and meaningful, we don’t even know them yet 🙂 But if you are into relationships, then some deeper “glue” is necessary. Some people in the manosphere like to call women’s tendency to want a relationship the equivalent of shallow. But to that (or any other accusation of shallowness when you express sexual/relationship needs), I find the best response to be “You can do whatever you want in life, but you can’t do whatever… Read more »

taterearl
Guest

“Beta females have plenty of shoulders to cry on. Beta males, not so much.” The way it should be…at least the beta male part. Men complaining about their lot in life is the worst thing a man can do. It basically says “I’ve given up bettering myself.” You have a small package…that was the card you were dealt. It doesn’t stop you from becoming a leader, getting out and approaching women, or finding other ways to raise value. It would be more constructive to ask questions on how to get better than to just complain. I think the reason most… Read more »

FuriousFerret
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FuriousFerret

“Some people in the manosphere like to call women’s tendency to want a relationship with a guy WAY better than they are the equivalent of shallow. ”

-There fixed it for you.

Martel
Guest
Martel

“‘Beta females have plenty of shoulders to cry on. Beta males, not so much.’ The way it should be…at least the beta male part.” Very true. It’s instinctual for both males and females to feel repelled by weakness in males. However, we live in a society in which plenty of decent guys were duped into thinking that weakness is some sort of virtue, that being compliant is both sexually appealing and morally superior. Because The Matriarchy has actively encouraged weakness in men who otherwise would have ended up being healthy, if I see the chance to get somebody to swallow… Read more »

Alpha_BetaSpectrum
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Alpha_BetaSpectrum

Absolutely, all challenges have to be dealt with one way or another, sitting there and whining though easy to do, is just a waste on time you can be using to remedy the situation, or grow into a better man…

taterearl
Guest

For men anyway…bitching for it’s own sake is just being prideful…just as much as being self absorbed to protect your ego or waiting for something to happen. Most men aren’t rock star or rich enough to get away with having women fall into their lap. It takes humility to ask “What did I do to get myself into this?”…or to seek out help from those that figured it out. To go up and cold approach a woman you don’t know…even though you are confident, you also have to be humble to do it because you’ll strike out more than you’ll… Read more »

Hopeless Romantic
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Hopeless Romantic

I’ve used the words shallow and superficial before. Don’t know about other women but I don’t expect my men to do better than I do in any sphere; fitness, healthy, money making, whatever. For me it would be superficial to ask a man to wax his private parts if I’m not waxing mine. The reverse also holds true. For me it would be superficial to expect my man to make more money than I do or to work out his body more. I think I’m relatively non-shallow. Yes I’m attracted to beautiful male faces but I don’t ask those men… Read more »

Johnycomelately
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Johnycomelately

I wonder if their is a female version of Shallow Hal? Heck even the Princess stories have a useless servant getting a prince.

AnonWriter
Guest

There was an AskReddit thread today also, where a woman was asking how important looks are to a guy. It was full of guys downplaying looks.

Here’s the link:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/13i6lx/men_how_much_do_looks_really_matter/

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

The Manosphere downplays the importance of looks to women. [You’d be wrong about that]A healthy, red-blooded hetero female is of course going to love looking into the beautiful eyes of a pretty boy and undressing a hot hunk with our eyes. Duh. But neither men nor women need to spend a lot of time and money on their looks. Ditch the make up for nutrient dense food and lots of pure drinking water. You’ll get a glow from inside out. Ditch the gym for the great outdoors. And quite frankly men don’t even need to shave. Beards can be sexy.… Read more »

anon
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anon

2,3,1

Lumpy
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Lumpy

anon: 3,2,1 by far. Faces are a matter of preference but 3 has a banging body.

YaReally
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YaReally

Old PUA mantra: “I will not apologize for my desires as a man.” I use this a bunch actually. “(something shallow, like telling a new girl I like girls who dress up for me when they come over, because I’m laying the framework for her to expect to have to do that if she wants me to fuck her) I know that’s probably shallow, but I don’t care lol I know what I like.” Or about hotness I’ll use “(something shallow, like telling a new girl I couldn’t fuck a fat chick or a girl who doesn’t know how to… Read more »

Babes Inc
Guest
Babes Inc

Let me just throw a few names out there for you: Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos, Sergey Brin, or hell, even Mark Zuckerberg… These, friends, are among the richest men in the world. And (gasp) they’re all married – to women who are not supermodels. In fact, most of their wives are relatively “average” – by your looks criteria, anyway (See: Anne Wojcicki). Now, I want to know this: Why would men who have billions, BILLIONS of dollars continue to stay with someone who is a) their age, b) presumably a depreciated asset, and c) not a super-hot college… Read more »

AlphaBeta
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AlphaBeta

The whole “men are shallow” argument can be reframed to utilize a sacred cow in the current cultural zeitgeist: gay marriage. If men could control what they are physically attracted to, then why can’t gay men simply will themselves to be attracted to women — like how supposedly straight men can will themselves to be physically attracted to fat chicks — and solve all of their problems?

Game. Set. Match.

Anonymoose
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Anonymoose

[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEP_Kjj2Zts?feature=player_detailpage&w=640&h=360%5D What a surpriser Open your eyes, A Woman advisor The name of this entertainment is women lose weight Our first years of marriage everything was just great But after two kids and the weight gain factor The fact is now she’s completely unattractive Look, fat chicks, I don’t mean to sound rude I tell her nice hit the gym and don’t eat so much food But no, ‘You’re shallow, you need to run the course of unconditional love and So forth’ But how, If desire’s not there that’s just delayment Divorce is, child support, alimony payments My happiness… Read more »

Love's Orphan
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Love's Orphan

You can have trillions of dollars but thats not gonna glue a hot woman to your side. They will come, sure; but they will not stay long. When you constantly smother her with your negative mindset, she will walk away to fulfill her hypergamy. You are not alpha just because you are rich. Take a look at the latest example: Robert Pattinson. Not just one but three manifestations of power (Money, Fame, Status.) yet Ms. Less Emotions than a Rock cheated on him and he took her back!

FuriousFerret
Guest
FuriousFerret

She simply used selection bias of billionaires that from appearances and demeanor have low testasterone which would make them less into sex to begin with. Also most of these guys have probably gotten some on the side. She didn’t mention the countless numbers of politicains, CEOs, Athletes, Musicians and Actors that have had sex scandals and that’s the just the ones that become public. Her argument is simply dumb. I mean it’s not a manosphere meme that powerful and rich men have lots of sex with hot women. It’s pretty much commonly accepted knowledge. When you look at her main… Read more »

Bully
Guest
Bully

Love’s Orphan: Balance in all things.

You can be a Game grandmaster but if you’re too dirt poor to even take her to McDonalds it won’t do you any good.

Game, status, money, all important, but all subject to diminishing returns on effort expended; so it is best to spend effort shoring up your weak areas instead of focusing all of your eggs into one basket.

Love's Orphan
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Love's Orphan

Right, overall improvement is the ultimate goal for everyone.

BC
Guest
BC

Some people in the manosphere like to call women’s tendency to want a relationship the equivalent of shallow.

Actually, we call that amusing. What’s better is when they feel entitled to it. We call that hilarious.

taterearl
Guest

“And quite frankly men don’t even need to shave. Beards can be sexy. ”

I grew out my beard as my personal middle finger to the Fem Matrix. Turns out more women like it than I thought they would.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Let me just throw a few names out there for you: Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos, Sergey Brin, or hell, even Mark Zuckerberg… Money ≠ Alpha. Gates, Zuckerberg, have always been abject beta chumps. I was hardly surprised to see Zuckerberg’s Asian bride when they married, they know a rich herb when they see one. The problem you have is conflating affluence with Alpha dominance, and then falsely attribute some higher sense of integrity to guys who simply have never had any idea of how women work. A lifetime of Beta conditioning runs deep, so most beta guys will… Read more »

Thomas Gray
Guest
Thomas Gray

“Turns out more women like it than I thought they would.”

So true!
The sides of my chin are actually all white hairs, which makes for an intriguing contrast with my otherwise darkbrown/black beard. I trim it at a medium length, just so it’s brisk but soft, and girls just can’t seem to get enough of touching it once they’re on my lap. Also, I know I’m in when I get a comment about how “interesting” my beard looks (they open me for it). No game required, just take em home by the hand.

itsme
Guest
itsme

And quite frankly men don’t even need to shave. Beards can be sexy. Plus, I’d be a hypocrite demanding a guy shave every day when I haven’t shaved or waxed in years myself.

facial hair still needs to be trimmed to look tidy.

this isn’t about hypocrisy, it’s about personal grooming and looking one’s best. a good number of women find a hairy man attractive, but very very few men find hairy women attractive.

Martel
Guest
Martel

AlphaBeta: Phenomenal point on the homosexuality thing. I like petite brunettes because I was conditioned that way and it has nothing to do with my biology whatsoever. But if I were into beefy men, that would be ETCHED IN STONE. Same goes for the left seeing gender roles as just a societal construct. Boys play with fire trucks and girls play with dolls because they’re CONDITIONED to be that way, even though their organs and hormones are tangibly, measurably, and substantially, different. But a gay guy and a straight guy who are biologically the same were born that way and… Read more »

Joseph
Guest

” If men could be socially and psychologically convinced that physicality (their primary determinant for attraction & arousal) was less important than intellect, integrity, or any other esoteric, moralized virtue (or the perception of it at least), this then (theoretically) levels the playing field of intra-sexual competition among women.”

Hilarious. Women can’t play to their strengths so they decide to play to their weaknesses.

taterearl
Guest

I had a discussion at work with some coworkers about those vampire movies…where one of the guys made the comment about Patterson being dreamy to the ladies.

To which I replied that he was so dreamy his gf went out and cheated on him with an old guy. That got a laugh out of the gals.

Martel
Guest
Martel

To the hypergamites, being beta if you’re kinda ugly or dumpy is forgiveable. Being beta if every woman on the planet wants you is absolutely unforgiveable. Bella knows the truth about Edward, and although most women probably wanted him to take her back, I bet once this whole Twilight thing fades, RPatt’s fame will quickly fade.

FuriousFerret
Guest
FuriousFerret

‘I noticed the same phenomenon to a lesser degree myself pre-pill. I looked like an alpha, and I get checked out all the time. When we started talking and they realized what a nice guy I was, I could visibly see the disappointment in their eyes. My niceness was a much bigger turnoff that it would have been if I were ugly.’ This is so true. Those game denalists that always crone on about how it’s all looks are fools. First off if you are a ‘pretty boy’, you get fucked with by a lot of men especially betas with… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Why do billionaires marry homely chicks? Because they can get sex from better looking women on the side pretty much any time they want it. Most women are not equipped to be a good wife AND a perfect “10” turbo sex machine any more than most men are not equipped to be a good dad and provide good genes. Most men are lucky to have ONE woman so they have to make compromises. When you have more money than God and everyone knows your name, you can have the faithful workhorse at home churning out kids and making sure the… Read more »

Martel
Guest
Martel

Game + looks=tingles
Game + ugliness=unexpected pleasure, possible tingles
Anti-game + ugliness=no tingles but expected
Anti-game + looks=severe disappointment, dryness

Emma the Emo
Guest
Emma the Emo

BC,
Men’s facination with boobs and vagina are amusing too. They want those things like cat wants a string
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlvShdmpZHY
That’s your typical husband, right there.

AnonWriter
Guest

@Babes Inc: These guys married more average women because they only have money to offer. Money alone is not enough to keep a good looking woman from cheating on you. Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Brin, they’re all hopeless nerds. They are alpha in their fields, but socially and with women, they are hopeless betas whose billions allowed them to find a partner. These guys don’t want some hot woman coming in, making it through the minimum period in the pre nup, and then bailing. Hell no, they want someone who is going to stay with them and not cheat. People are… Read more »

Days of Broken Arrows
Guest
Days of Broken Arrows

Funny someone should bring the preferences of gay men into this discussion. Gay men’s standards for other men are often sky-high and make straight men look like slouches by comparison. There is a reason gay men are known to groom so much and spend so much time at the gym. If women call a straight guy “shallow,” they should hop over to the gay community and see what goes on. Neither gay nor straight guys should have to apologize for being innately attracted to what they’re attracted to.

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

“Neither gay nor straight guys should have to apologize for being innately attracted to what they’re attracted to.”

And neither should gay or straight women. And I can assure you we don’t feel the least bit guilt about our preferences.

Days of Broken Arrows
Guest
Days of Broken Arrows

Perhaps you missed the point of this post, Hopeless Romantic. The focus was that women don’t, in fact, apologize for their preference, but men are made to do so. In fact, your rather mindless feminist proclamation bolsters the original point. Here is what the original post said: Thus terms like “shallow” and “superficial” are contextually defined from a feminine perspective and, through shaming, serve to enforce feminine primacy. There are a lot of applications women will use “shallow” for, but the primary use is to shame men’s natural arousal/attraction cues being based on physicality. As I detailed in The Wall,… Read more »

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

If it bothers you the best way to avoid being shallow or avoid mating with shallow people is to have 1 standard for you and your prospective partner/s. If you want a gym rat, be a gym rat yourself. If you want a healthy eater, be a healthy eater yourself. If you want someone who cares about clothing and buys a lot of different types to look good, do that yourself. If a hair free smooth body is a turn on for you, keep yourself similarly groomed. Like attracts like. However keep in mind that after 40 its expected and… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Exactly what I’d expect to read at the end of an overweight aging spinster’s Plenty of Fish dating profile.

Demarcated Values
Guest
Demarcated Values

Damn it, man. I didn’t save that. She was actually supposed to be a little plush, but not overweight.

Can you e-mail it to me? It was for a project.

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

“So spake the voice of feminine fat acceptance”

Not. Its an acceptance of the balding, beer or rice-n-dahl gut middle aged male.

Don’t tell me you want to be expected to look like this at 43

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8924936/hrithik_roshan_shows_his_8_pack_abs/

I mean, for the guys that do, we’ll take it. But most men want to be cut some slack by 40 and compassionate women do that (or become cougars 😉 …)

Wilf
Guest
Wilf

Being fit is something you do for yourself. My wife’s or anyone else’s enjoyment of it is of secondary importance. As a former fat man, acceptance of fat for any reason is the road to ruin. Any excuse, you can come up with, I’ve probably used it to stay fat in the past. It was after 10 pm last night before I got to my weight work-out, and I really didn’t want to get up to run at 5:15 this morning either, but it’s muc better to suck up these small inconveniences than to fall back into the pit of… Read more »

imnobody
Guest

Yes, hopeless romantic. Like attracts like. This is why women are attracted to men who have the same income level than themselves.

If you want to have a guy with a higher income level, you’d better have this income level yourself.

Women only demand equality when equality suits them.

itsme
Guest
itsme

But most men want to be cut some slack by 40

most men are betas. we on this blog are not most men.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Most men also want to be excused from the rigors of hypergamy too.

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[…] one-minute conversation was a verbal lithograph of a Rollo Tomassi-esque plugged-in worldview – a female-presumptive narrative where woman is always higher value, no ifs, ands or butts […]

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

“If you want to have a guy with a higher income level, you’d better have this income level yourself. ”

Most of the men I’ve dated earned less than I did and my husband earns less than I do now. I’ve never been money-minded and would rather do away with it altogether but this is the way we humans currently live and eat.

Glengarry
Guest
Glengarry

I guess it’s considered shallow to say “well, I still love your personality, so can we still be friends?”

Glengarry
Guest
Glengarry

But let’s think about personality. When you hear the “shallow” aspersion, imagine the woman in question as someone sexually entirely uninteresting, a fifty year old male perhaps. No interesting extras except his personality. Would you make this pseudo-man your friend, your bosom-buddy?

If my male friends behaved the way women as a rule behave, the best outcome would be kicking them out and cutting them off. Things might well be worse. I’m hardly alone, so women get a lot of leeway and free passes from men for their shitty behaviour.

And that’s all there is to say about preferring the shallow.

Hopeless Romantic
Guest
Hopeless Romantic

“When you hear the “shallow” aspersion, imagine the woman in question as someone sexually entirely uninteresting, a fifty year old male perhaps. No interesting extras except his personality. Would you make this pseudo-man your friend, your bosom-buddy?” Sure, why not? Humans have more to offer than just their looks. Looks are important of course in romantic relationships because looks are a major sexual turn on. But for platonic relationships they don’t play nearly as major a role and often not a role at all. I’ve always had much older friends from both sexes who contribute greatly to my quality of… Read more »

Glengarry
Guest
Glengarry

Read again, think again.

Sitaram Goel Shah
Guest
Sitaram Goel Shah

“. No interesting extras except his personality.”

This sentence doesn’t make sense.

You’d kick a friend with an interesting personality to the curb…….. why?

And that makes sense…….how?

FuriousFerret
Guest
FuriousFerret

@Sitaram Goel Shah

Hey dumbfuck, if you actually would read the sentence, he is saying that imagine that woman as a 50 year old man so that nothing sexual comes into the picture and you are judging her on her personality. Would you still want that person in your life.

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[…] had an interesting conversation over the long weekend about my Shallow post with a few red pill friends. The topic of NLP (neurolinguistic programing) and how select […]

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[…] Do not be ashamed of being “shallow“. […]

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[…] desire is a bad–wrong, even. Women are quick to judge a man who merely goes for hot women as shallow, superficial, and chauvinistic. They will then almost always carry on say something along the lines […]

Concerned Scholar
Guest
Concerned Scholar

“If only men are *shallow* then why are things like those string bikinis the girls are wearing even an option? If women truly believed that men were attracted to a good personality then the world would be full of the most well behaved, funny and warm girls.” Because both men and woman are so highly influences by culture and media’s definition of what is masculine and what is feminine and what/who is successful. A large majority of gender roles/relations/behavior are all social constructs (and not actually scientific). When you’ve been indoctrinated with media, schools, etc telling you that you have… Read more »

Sexual Romantic
Guest
Sexual Romantic

“If only men are *shallow* then why are things like those string bikinis the girls are wearing even an option? ”

You’re complaining about string bikinis? SMH.

“If women truly believed that men were attracted to a good personality”

Why should women “believe” that?

Men are attracted to physically beautiful women. The good personality is a plus.

Face it. You ARE shallow. Now get over it already.
________________________________

SEXUAL MARXISM
The Manospherian belief that society owes me a girlfriend.

From each according to her ability, to each according to his need.

Molly
Guest

Concerned Scholar

There is lots of science behind these ideas. Lots.

And I don’t mind things the way they are. Women like power. Men like T&A. Why is that a problem? Just enjoy it!

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[…] what is the single most common shaming tactic women use for men? Painting them as ‘shallow‘ for requiring her to maintain a good shape and be sexually available. Men have far too much […]

julia
Guest
julia

Haha. Men r stupid. It is natural for women to date men who’s taller and has more money. But men call her shallow . But men who date women because they’re attractive and then women call them shallow, men get upset. The things is is that you’re not talking about women in general. Since all men don’t like ugly, fat fatties then how can u say women r shallow? You’re not talking about women, only the hot ones. That’s OK though. As an ugly fat woman myself I could care less wat men say about women. As long as you’re… Read more »

Jen
Guest
Jen

One thing I disagree with is that you’ve conflated hot with sexually available. As a young, thin, attractive woman (and no, not a woman with a long sexual history) I am sick and tired of men my dad’s age hitting on me, especially if they are married. I am sexually available to my 27-year-old boyfriend, not to an overweight 55-year-old. It’s almost insulting that they think we are on the same level, and honestly it just makes me think of their poor wife and kids. Even if they have money (and by the way, even if I were single, money… Read more »

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[…] common criticisms I get, especially from disgruntled women, is Salad’s observation; “as a mid-20′s girl, there’s no way I’d ever be attracted to some older guy.” Once again, pairing and mutual attraction has nothing to do with SMV, and especially so when […]

livingtree2013
Guest

RM, did you actually mean what you said, “The single most common shaming tactic that women use against men is “shallow””? And you are upset about that? Thank god for that! What I wouldn’t do to be in mens’ shoes if that is the case. The list of shaming tactics men use against women is so incredibly hostile and hurtful that I can hardly even repeat them, and it embarrasses me you’re even complaining about being called shallow. What I wouldn’t do to be called shallow instead of an fat ugly angry bitch gold-digging selfish feminist whore whenever I speak… Read more »

livingtree2013
Guest

Oh, and incidentally, as a woman, I make my selection of relationship companions not based on looks, or money, or ambition, or how much they want me. All those things are nice, and sometimes its enough to get a first date, but I my decision to continue dating someone based on one factor alone: does he have class? Sadly, this means I don’t find I date much. They get weeded out really quickly. I suggest you guys do the same. There really isn’t much out there to choose from, among men or women I’m afraid, but if we are all… Read more »

Redwood Raven
Guest
Redwood Raven

“weeded out real quickly” equates to having standards, which also ties into being “shallow”.

Rob
Guest
Rob

“….Oh, and incidentally, as a woman, I make my selection of relationship companions not based on looks, or money, or ambition, or how much they want me. All those things are nice, and sometimes its enough to get a first date, but I my decision to continue dating someone based on one factor alone: does he have class? ” Horse poop! – and that’s putting it mildly. First you saying you make your selection not based on looks, or money, or ambition or how much they want you and then you double back and say all those things are nice… Read more »

MB
Guest
MB

@ Babes Inc.
Take a look at Danger and Play specifically his article about attending a dinner party with Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg eta al.. Zuckerberg and his ilk are betas who made a lot of money. The money doesn’t make alpha the internal compass and frame does.

Jessica
Guest
Jessica

Then men also need to stop having a problem with women being shallow about looks. Some people are less shallow than others and not one gender is less shallow than another. I only shame men that are obese for chasing after women that are fit and refuse to date any woman that is close to his same size. I’m an active woman and I want someone active that I can share my interests with, such as 36 mile hike up and down a mountain on vacation. Wanting someone similar in looks and lifestyle is not shallow but wanting someone that… Read more »

linda
Guest
linda

So then it’s not shallow at all for women to only want a man with a 6 figure income, who has a full head of hair and is over 6 feet tall with a big penis? Give me a break. Stop pulling the “biology” card. There is a difference between being attracted to someone physically and being shallow to the point where if their boobs are big enough, or her waist isnt small enough, then she is deemed “unattractive”. That is SHALLOW, not biological. Back in the say men found pretty much all females attractive, including FAT ones. Look at… Read more »