Sex in the 90’s

Solo hit me up with an interesting question once:

There’s been lot of threads popping up lately of how technology/social networking has changed dating, I know I’m a bit younger then most, however I truly didn’t start dating till the mid 2000’s (by then texting and Myspace had already taking full flight)

What was dating like in the 80’s? 90’s? or hell even the early 2000’s? Was Attention Whoring in clubs/bars as astronomical as it is now? Was flaking an epidemic in the 90’s?

I talked to a guy who use to be a vendor for a sales company I worked at. He told me the biggest difference in the 90’s was that the cost of dating was cheaper and it was easier to go bareback with a girl.

In 1993 a number close was actually significant because it meant she was giving you a personal landline number you could call, not a nebulous cell phone number with caller ID. I think guy’s these days still think a number close means something, it doesn’t. In 1995 a kiss close was somewhat significant, but not a guaranteed lay or implicative of anything beyond a flirtation. Now it’s almost necessary for a girl to make out with a guy in order for him to get the message.

There are a lot of 80’s and 90’s era dating holdovers that young men still think are applicable today. Which is kind of silly when you think about it. I would’ve laughed my ass off if a 40 year old guy told me that dating rituals in the 70’s were still applicable in the 90’s back then. I met Mrs. Tomassi at a gig I was playing in 1995 (you know, at a club, the place every white knight tells you you’ll never find a ‘quality woman™’). No cell phones, no IM, no internet. Compared to 2012 that was the wild west as far as dating was concerned. There was no manosphere, and if you owned a book titled “How to Pick Up Girls” you were obviously a loser who’d mail ordered it from an ad in the back of Hustler (analog porn was still all there was). Basically you were on your own to figure things out.

The Wild West

In the 90’s feminization had reach it’s apex. I know that comes off as a bold statement, and probably a lot of guys would disagree with me because of the dating environment they find themselves in now. However, I say that because it was the wild west and feminization was unchecked and normalized, and there was very little any guy could realistically do to unplug himself. Go back and watch any of the sitcoms or movies from that era and pay attention to the mannerisms of men and women. Seinfeld, Friends and Fraser are good ones to observe. All the time you do, remember there is no internet, there is no global consortium of men comparing experiences about women’s observed behaviors and their motivations, and there is no way to unplug from the Matrix beyond one’s own upbringing, character and insight. Compared to the mid 90’s, the mid 2000’s was the age of enlightenment for Men.

The most tragic reminder of this era being feminization’s apex can be summed up in the suicide of Kurt Cobain. The archetypal self-loathing, tortured-artist beta marries the era’s archetypal fem-warrior, attention whore slut. In hindsight, was there any doubt there’d be a casualty? Aint love grand?

Women flaked and Attention Whores were present, but not in such identifiable ways as now. With the rise of the internet and social media it was proven to me that ALL women are attention seeking to varying degrees, and they’ve always been so. However now the technology is such that they can more actively indulge in their attention obsession from both sexes, so it appears as if women have become more self-important. I’d argue they were always this way, but lacked the outlet to entertain it. It’s ironic that the girls in the 80’s and 90’s who were so repulsed by the nerdy computer geeks are the same 40 somethings sitting in front of their computers for hours at work soaking in the attention of their “Friends” on FaceBook today.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

48 comments on “Sex in the 90’s

  1. There was also no Netflix or even movies-on-demand on cable. No Tivo. Haute cuisine and “foodies” didn’t really exist at a price point the average gal could afford. Venture and Zayre didn’t carry high fashion knockoffs like Target. There was no Etsy and vintage thrift boutiques were few and far between.

    The problem today isn’t flakiness in women, it’s that there are too many competitive “high reward” options for men AND women. The competition isn’t usually other men, it’s other “omg I’m so high from power shopping!!!” activities.

    I still prefer dating today over 20 years ago because there are still plenty of women who refuse all of this modern behavior, and there are far more men who are addicted to porn, video games, 60 sports channels on cable and whatever else the average schlub can’t get enough of.

    That means the gal:guy ratio is far better today than it was in 1992. Also, some of the higher status power positions for men are getting weaker — any guy can be a musician or DJ today, and I’ve actually seen women NOT get all hot and bothered by those “jobs” or roles as they did when I was in bands in the early 90s.

  2. Don’t forget the worst beta-izing sitcom of them all.. Home Improvement. Tim Allen was the poster child of the the incompetant man who always had to take Wilson’s feminized advice to make up to his wife.

    Spice Girls were teaching women Grrrl Power at the same time too.

    Yeah the 90’s sucked.

  3. Bud and Coors light was what restaurants served, Heineken was considered a good beer and even exotic yuppie drink (just like their yuppie car phones), flaking was even more of an epidemic then, and none of the women – none of them – were worried that riding the carousel and partying down would leave them as cat-owning 40 year old mid-managers. Feminism really was at its apex then, we’re just living in the ruins now. The 40 year old women bitching now about men, the Kate Roiphes who dominate the conversation now, are the ones who chased Alphas back then and would readily bring up on a date or in casual conversation, “I don’t want to be married or have kids ever, it would just cramp my style and drag me down.”

    I got the message that girls didn’t want to commit to anything but a career and partying pretty early on and ran a string of girls – soft harem style more or less – until I met my wife. There were two rings of girls that I took advantage of for a long time. One was a pretty good sized circle of friends that I worked my way through, basically as a nice guy who would get one of the girls alone, go for it, have some fun, leave her happy, then move on without asking for anything or getting involved, Friends with Benefits but not a particularly close friend, just “guy in the group we hang out with” type friend. I resisted some attempts to lure me into an LTR, with one exception, and that botched the whole deal. It worked pretty well for a couple years because I think word got around that I was neat, sweet & discrete, and always made sure that I had a happy customer. The other soft harem was a handful of women I didn’t really care about at, good looking tramps, really, but I liked to hop on top of them and treated them like that was all they were good for. I’d fool with them, treat them rude, not return calls, be a slightly loud drunk crude guy, callous and frankly a dick, sometimes humiliating to them in public. That worked pretty well too. Amazing how many women assume you’re a guy with options if you make a point of seeking them out, then treating them badly.

    It seems like we’re in rougher times in some ways but with game I think guys understand it better and can make it work to their benefit. The hardest thing to deal with is that women aren’t going to be there for our emotional support. Start unburdening yourself to a woman and she will lose all respect for you; might as well castrate yourself with a pair of rusty scissors, right on the spot. Perhaps it’s always been that way – if that’s so then the feminists’ destruction of men’s own spaces – men’s clubs, the social ghettoization of golf, the elites’ marginalization of hunting, fishing, and man things like sports and the reduction of them into “isn’t that cute, the little man things your little man does – is particularly pernicious. Supposedly, the feminists wanted weepy sharing guys but the destruction of the vehicles of male friendship means that more than ever, men have to act emotionally like one of those old loner heroes from an old Western, keep their own counsel, stay quiet. Feminism functions in a lot of ways not as a tool for social and legal equalization of women, but as a device that destroys women unintentionally, and destroys men quite intentionally. It isn’t clear that society as a whole is going to recognize this any time soon but the fact we’re talking about it means we’re closer to that happening than we were 20 years ago.

  4. What would you say about women who do not use facebook? (that are sane, not fat and not ugly)

    [I call her my wife actually.]

  5. Don’t forget the worst beta-izing sitcom of them all.. Home Improvement. Tim Allen was the poster child of the the incompetant man who always had to take Wilson’s feminized advice to make up to his wife.

    When I’m at Gold’s at 5:30am reruns of this show is on a couple of the TVs around the gym. Mercifully all the sound is muted, but I look at the mannerisms and the clothing and the hairstyles and the facial expressions – Tim is just the epitome of 90’s defeated, supplicating beta schlubery, and his man-wife is the epitome of 90’s short-hair, shoulder pad blouse career feminist.

  6. Joe Blow touches on something huge – if you want to know what dating was like in the ’90s, look at a 45 year old woman today.

    Great point about feminization in mass media. Remember how scandalous UFC was back in ’92 or so? Cities banning UFC fights, etc. I remember a buddy getting underground videos of the Gracies and it was practically like getting porn. Now it’s so mainstream it’s weird to think about just how controversial it all was. And the idea of a PUA – it was a joke, not something real men did. What was the movie, was it “Better off Dead” where the little brother is sitting in his room surrounded by babes reading some “How to pick up chicks” book? Funny, I was just listening to the first Police album yesterday and thinking that what’s happening is that it’s a guy singing songs that sound like they were written by a woman. And it’s that kind of shit that led us astray; women thinking that what they wanted from a man was “Every little thing she does is magic”,” So Lonely”, “Can’t stand losing you”… and the apex: “Roxanne”. Yeah, baby, I don’t care how many cocks you’ve had, it’s all good. Let me save you!

    Ironically, the fact that people are so plugged in today means that unplugging is SO much more powerful.

    [I hear you about UFC. A couple of the casinos I used to work for had a tough time promoting fights because of outcries of brutality. Now evangelical churches are using MMA to get men back into church, go figure]

  7. “Feminization’s apex” is right.

    Dating in the 90s? The decade when the first episode of JAG was about pushing a female pilot? The decade when the serious distortion of domestic violence data took place and we got VAWA courtesy of Joe Biden? The decade of the Vagina Monologues? The decade of the “THIS IS WHAT A FEMINIST LOOKS LIKE” T-shirt? The decade when it became “cool” and “enlightened” to be a feminist with the only serious opposition to that notion being the tradcons?

    Thanks, but no thanks. Dating in that environment would have been hazardous to my mental (and possibly physical) health. Thank god I was too young.

  8. I know exactly two women who are not on facebook, and they are sisters. One is a very nice girl, good character, religious, married in her 20s to an overall good guy beta (not wimp at all, fun and confident but not a player), not a huge partier, virgin till marriage, SWPL (in a good way), family oriented, the whole package. She is sane, thin, average-cute. Not perfect, she parties some, and had an orbiter in college and dated a bad boy briefly, but she never made a habit of it. She has no reason to attention-whore herself, so I am guessing that is why she spurns facebook.

    Her sister, on the other hand, is much more attractive, but is also a beta stringer, an alpha chaser/fucker, a hipster-loser dater, smoker, hard drinker, dabbled in drugs, manipulative, capricious, low self esteem (went from hot to fat to hot), SWPL (in a bad way), the list goes on. My guess for her avoidance of facebook has something to do with her behavior, not sure exactly why though because she could AW it up big time if she wanted.

  9. Instead of facebook and social networking, they had those phone lines you could call and then pay for like an hour or a week’s worth of time. then you’d shuffle through the introductions until you heard a voice you liked and would ping the girl. then you could chat with her. I met a couple of chicks this way. There were newspaper ads. There were pagers. There was also chicks who would write you a letter suggesting coffee or would pass you a note. You either met chicks in bars or in classes or social occassions. Reruns of MASH with Alan Alda, reruns of Taxi with Alex the beta were popular.

  10. I still prefer dating today over 20 years ago because there are still plenty of women who refuse all of this modern behavior, and there are far more men who are addicted to porn, video games, 60 sports channels on cable and whatever else the average schlub can’t get enough of.

    That means the gal:guy ratio is far better today than it was in 1992. Also, some of the higher status power positions for men are getting weaker

    I would argue that the obesity epidemic has made these “advantages” a wash.

  11. I can only think of one chick whom I have met over the past several years who isn’t on facebook, and she just so happens to be an early 30’s ball busting cunt.

    Another one I know hasn’t been on there for long (she has only had a cell phone for a couple of years as well) and doesn’t seem to be umbilically connected to these things like most women are these days. This one is the sugar baby type who jumps from rich guy to rich guy.

    It’s a fucked up world when the “normal” women can’t go two hours in a day without updating their facebook status or carrying on text conversations with multiple people.

  12. I was in college in the late 1980s and dated as a young working man in the 90s.

    1. There were obese girls and chunky girls, but not nearly as many as there are now.

    2. Flaking was worse.

    3. Lots more entitlement princesses — expecting expensive dates, dinner/movie, etc.

    4. Harder to contact the girls. You had to call and leave a message with her roommates or on her landline answering machine. There was no total availability and no texting. You met up at the party. If she didn’t show, you can’t text or call. (This also made it easier to blow off girls you didn’t want.)

    5. Porn culture had not become dominant yet (at least not in the Midwest). Women’s clothes were so baggy and covered everything that you panted and snorted when you finally got to see some skin. You never ever saw cleavage like you do now.

    6. Much more discretion was expected when you got the bang. The only time you talked about your bang past your very close friends was if she was a bottomfeeder slut and you knew everyone else had had a go at her.

    7. Many, many more girls were open about “saving it for marriage” or saving P in V for marriage.

    8. I was in college during ascendant third wave feminism. The AIDS scare and herpes were dominant. Nobody — I mean NOBODY — rawdogged it unless it was an LTR. Men were being told they were just as susceptible to AIDS as women.

    9. Date rape education and sexual harassment education were on the rise. There were few accusations of date rape or false rape. But it was made very clear that men were never to escalate sexually unless they had permission. Unless they had a clear “yes” to every sexual move, they were to stop. If she said “stop” to anything, you were to immediately stop and put your dick away, blueballs be damned. Attempts to overcome LMR would no doubt be viewed as a date rape attempt.

    RE sex harassment: It soon becaome clear that essentially, any unwanted attention from a man was “sexual harassment”.

    You’re an unattractive guy trying to punch above your weight? “AAAARRRGHH!! That man is harassing me!!”

    You clumsily ask out the sorority sister? “Call the cops!! I feel unsafe! He’s harassing me!!”

    You ask out some girl who works with you at the dorm desk and she thinks you’re kind of dorky? “I’m reporting you to the dorm counselors! You’re harassing me!!”

    You kiss a girl on your second date and grab a handful of ass? “You PIG! I didn’t say you could do that! You sexual harasser!”

  13. Dating is much better now because of online dating and the unlimited source of women to tap into. They’re all damaged goods but fuck it, what do we care. Just gotta wrap the shit up. The biggest risk is them knowing where you live, cause they crazy ones do stalk.

  14. As deti above states, the AIDS and Date Rape hysterias made dating a nightmare for most of the early 90s. Things changed dramatically towards the late 90s to what they are today (thank you Bill Clinton?)

  15. I was at the gym and heard one of the champions of feminism Gwen Stefani and one of her overplayed, terrible songs from the 90s.

    She was just a girl, lucky her.

  16. First, nothing is better than college, where else are there thousands of hot, young girls within a few square miles? That’s true no matter what decade you live in. Other than that, the biggest thing to impact the dating scene is online, not the dating sites necessarily, but sites like this where men can swap stories, compare notes, etc. Honestly, up the that point, most men were stumbling in the dark. Because of that, I think it has improved…slightly. One thing’s true, women then were told by their mothers not to be dependent on a man for a career; they were also told they could “have it all”. The result is what we have today, a lot of older, single unmarried women…and men. One other thing, i think women were better looking then. They dressed better and seemed more feminine.
    It’s amazing how many overweight, trashy girls are running around today. Not a bad thing, depending on your perspective. They may be easier, but the 90s girls were hotter and had a wicked, playfulness about them, that I don’t see as much today.

  17. I’d actually disagree about Home Improvement just a bit. Most of what you all say is true, most of the gags came from Tim Taylor’s stupid/irrational parody of masculinity and Jill was the more logical and centered one. Plus there were frequently bits where even the models would be shown to have more knowledge or common sense than him.

    However, the show definitely had some strong points that set it apart from Friends/Seinfeld and most lower-tier sitcoms on other channels:

    Tim Allen himself has decent cocky/funny attitude (and isn’t a sarcastic nihilist like Seinfeld).

    The show portrays an entire middle-class family with two biological parents who live together and both take an active role in family life.

    Tim’s character flaws are complemented primarily by positive MALE characters Al and Wilson. On Seinfeld the male supporting characters Kramer and Costanza were loser/buffoons, and the guys on Friends were all kind of douchey.

    The children are boys who act like boys and the show never wasted any time on stupid girl one-upmanship.

    What other 90s sitcom could claim all that?

  18. There certainly wasn’t any roadmap back then.

    The phrase “nice guys finish last” was there, but if you wanted to get out of nice guy land and have more success with women, there were very few ways you were going to learn that being a fucking asshole wasn’t what made a guy successful with multiple women, it was his indifference to them. Back then, that took some serious observation combined with significant trial and error.

    I was the stereotypical nice guy with tons of female friends and limited sex in high school. Breaking out wasn’t easy. Here are the basics of how I did it over my 2nd and 3rd years in college. The 3rd year was bearing fruit, but my senior year saw serious dividends being paid.

    1.) Ironically, all of the listening to my female friends complain about what guys did to them, created the template for what I needed to start doing to the new ones I met everyday on my large campus. Somehow I knew getting the old ones to see me differently was a lost cause. . . in the short run.

    2.) I joined a fraternity. Instant prequalification, yes, but also a closer look and interaction with guys that were “naturals.” With the help of my roommate, who was a natural but cognisant of his actions, we devised rules for the next girl I had on the hook. Three simple rules for not being a nice guy.

    3.) Maxim and Details magazine. For those that are only familiar with the short attention span, knucklehead humor rags they became, you’d be amazed to know that they started out as well-written, edgier versions of GQ. A young man’s GQ. Each one had a monthly segment called “She Said.” It was a fem-written article giving up female secrets. I know Rollo’s feeling regarding female advice for catching females, but I found a lot of those articles very helpful and one of them wound up being a PUA staple in the 2000’s. Those magazines weren’t the overt manosphere by any stretch, but the beginnings were there.

    4.) And with the things above, I did a lot of trial and error. Again, the fraternity was helpful . It also gave me a “home base” mentality. I knew guys had my back. I don’t mean in fights or anything, but if I really did something stupid, I knew I had some solid cats behind me to help gloss over the indiscretion. Pissing on a bro’s candle to make your own shine a little brighter was seriously frowned upon.

    By the time I got out of there, I was by no means the biggest player college had ever seen, but women that knew me in high school and reconnected with me after college frequently commented that they barely recognized me, though I had made no drastic changes in look or fitness. I was just different.

    There were some upsides to that era though.

    1.) The no cell phone thing was great. Ignoring someone was a piece of cake. Plausible deniability was in abundance. Keeping someone on the hook while you pursued new options was a breeze.

    2.) I don’t recall the entitlement being nearly as bad then as it is now. The 9’s and 10’s were still tough to catch and every girl obviously wanted the best guy she could get, but I don’t recall entire swaths of 5’s and 6’s expecting they deserved knights on white horses as the case seems to be today.

  19. “Matters were made worse when Cobain’s parent’s divorced when he was seven and by his own account Cobain said he never felt loved or secure again. He became increasingly difficult, anti-social and withdrawn after his parent’s divorce. Cobain also said that his parent’s traumatic split fueled a lot of the anguish in Nirvana’s music.”

    To bring this full circle, the divorce of Cobains parents probably fucked up his life.

  20. Anders Breivik has criticised both of his parents for supporting the policies of the Norwegian Labour Party, and his mother for being, in his opinion, a moderate feminist. He wrote about his upbringing: “I do not approve of the super-liberal, matriarchal upbringing as it completely lacked discipline and has contributed to feminising me to a certain degree.”

  21. Love love LOVE your last paragraph. A lot of profound insight there. Tagging on Facebook everywhere you go, posting photos of everything you eat, AGHH live your life for yourself girls, not other people!!

  22. one other difference…in then 90’s there was no set of resources on game. You had no access to how to game. One contrast with then and now. if you asked a chick out and she gave you some set of waffle, often i was stuck with making a case for why all those reasons could be managed, not realizing it was a brush off or shit test.

    The other day, I shot a girl I’d been gaming a text. We’d been out 2-3 times, hanging out, dinner, dancing, DHV.

    I text: Hey princess. Monday. Patron

    Her a day later: waffle about working and preparing for this and that presentaiton and taking a course.

    Me: 1 day after that: “Oh.”

    Note the period at the end. hamster spin now in motion, what did that mean? is he pissed? does he care? etc etc etc…..

    That’s why things have gotten better if you know game.

    90’s….you’re in or you’re out….

  23. So true point on the general shaming tactic of discounting any nighttime venue hook-up-leading-to-a-relationship as a (morally) inferior means of meeting someone. Feminine imperative requires you to place the shameful, male sexuality-driven nocturnal snog-fest to a lower category to any acceptable sober daytime social function acquaintance. “So one can really meet someone in a club”, as the semi-obnoxous, loud significant other of a manginist workmate once commented in a bar about another workmate’s current girlfriend. The Great Matrix at work.

    Also on the mark with the “How to Pick Up Girls” book thingy (you rapist perv) and the revenge of the nerds with Facebook. Which teaches us that if you want to be a nerd, at least be that in a socially-directed and light-hearted way, user experience before everything…

    Hehe, Coutrtney Love + the 90s.
    1) This out-of-town permed-up CL-lookalike (or at least as ugly, heh) Madonna fanatic who picked me up and invited herself to spend the night; I tried to get some sleep as she was trying to make me f**k her. (Had I been at home alone, I may have not been quite so sleepy though…) I still can’t listen to The Doors’ third or Pixies’ “Doolittle” without a slight cringe. I wanna grow up to be a debaser… Sounds good, tho’.
    2) A classmate at the polytech had a CL-lookalike girlfriend (they all seemed to have perms those days) who went to bed after a party in their apt. and didn’t seem to be perturbed even as the lot of us guys stayed and laughed our asses off for hours on end, watching a Beavis & Butthead first season rerun all-nighter on the MTV (when that channel still meant something)… That was cool, huh.

  24. +1 Joe Blow.

    I am presently living on the campus where Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain became an item. I think there exists some brief history of them somewhere on campus, compiled by students & such, as well as early recordings of the two & their music before Nirvana was big, or possibly before Nirvana existed. But I don’t know much about either of them, except for the obvious.

    Divorced parents & resultant trauma [+ Courtney Love (or Women) & resultant trauma] + Washington & resultant shitty mood due to the climates personally offensive nature ( – this place can be beautiful, though it’s Winter’s are traumatic in and of themselves to a certain degree, in that it’s vampiric, or draconic, or daunting, draining, and dark – ) = an easy-bake recipe for a shitty suicide, sticking with or becoming clung onto by shitty women, & making shitty depressing music, which other’s stuck in shitty weather with a shitty woman considering a shitty death as they shiver seeking warmth & cling to what woman will out of necessity bred of loneliness reciprocate can relate to.

    Just sayin’. It also seems that many straight women aren’t really feminist up here compared to when I first arrived in this area; it’s mainly just a bunch of Gay Anarchists, Transvestites, and Lesbians who fight for femginahood and cry RAPE every time a man says something that doesn’t fit the way they use “male pronouns” or whatever other nonsense they bring up.

    I would say more, and give some prime examples, but I feel like this alone is enough to get me harassed on this campus by the white knight crusaders for the castration of all men & the pedasalization of all things Wooooomaaan….if someone were to find out who I am.

    Great work, keep it up Rollo, always look forward to your posts.

  25. I was a teen in the 90’s and it was hell. So much forced feminization, paranoia about AIDS, and boomer parents all over were retreating into a “I didn’t do that and you shouldn’t either!” moralism about sexuality that papered over their own sexcapades in the 60’s and 70’s. Maleness was a punchline, a la Ted Nugent or Tim Allen, and the effete, ironical Wayne Campbell, Ben Stiller and Kurt Cobain archetypes were forefront in the public mind.

    MTV became a political powerhouse, pushing all manner of left-liberal social activism from the anchor desk (including a program series from comes the title of this post). I just wanted to watch videos, but was bombarded with messages about how I had to support gay culture and condom campaigns.

    I never supported Clinton politically, but I now recognize and thank him (vaguely) for breaking us out of the puritanical stupor we were in, and for normalizing oral sex. And also exposing the hypocrisies of feminism, a movement that rushed to protect him for doing what they’d been railing against for a generation.

  26. “normalizing oral sex”

    I knew a lot of girls in college in the mid-80s who would do everything, even anal, but would not suck dick. “You can put that anywhere but in my mouth.”

  27. 2.) I don’t recall the entitlement being nearly as bad then as it is now. The 9′s and 10′s were still tough to catch and every girl obviously wanted the best guy she could get, but I don’t recall entire swaths of 5′s and 6′s expecting they deserved knights on white horses as the case seems to be today.

    When I re-entered the dating scene about a year ago, I was surprised with this change. Maybe it’s the insta-attention from online dating or something, but 6s and 7s almost never punched above their weight class and 5s were always approachable by even the worst shlub. Fast forward 20 years – I know a 7, age 25, with three kids to two different dads and acts like she’s still the high school cheerleader from her teenage years.

  28. Just going to throw this out there for those saying there were no resources back in the 1990’s. For the most part, they are correctly, however, there was one that I know of. I’m not sure when I first started going to the alt.fastseduction newsgroup (via NNTP), but I’m pretty sure it was late 90’s…maybe mid-90’s? Damn, that decade is a blur now! Pieces of good advice interspersed with field reports and the wars between the guru’s/wanna-be guru’s in that newsgroup. Such epic flame wars…

    But to be honest, how you perceived the 1990’s depends entirely on what you were looking for. Early 1990’s…fairly decent environment. LTR’s seemed easier to come by, some hooking up was going on.

    Enter the grunge era and, along with it, the pinnacle of Political Correctness. It was not a good time. In my experience, misandry was far more naked then than it is now. If you so much as looked at a naked women in a magazine, you were, by some standards, raping her. On a more micro level, LTR’s were still reasonably easy to find, but they were often with women who were head-cases, engaged in an inner war over what it meant to be a woman (those 40-something women are still fighting that war within themselves, which is one reason – aside from the obvious – that I tend to date younger). One night stands became rarer for a while. Sex-positive feminism was in its infancy then, and if hooks-ups were happening, they were happening on the sly. Overall, not a good time.

    That all being said, whether then or now was better depends on what you are looking for. Looking for a woman who is attractive, family-oriented, and better values? You’d have better luck finding that woman in the 1990’s, despite the growing number of harpies at the time. Looking for a series of easy lays with no mind towards a relationship? Congratulations, you are in the right place in time for that, my friend.

  29. Rock Throwing:

    “Maybe it’s the insta-attention from online dating or something, but 6s and 7s almost never punched above their weight class and 5s were always approachable by even the worst shlub.”

    That’s how it was 25 years ago.

    It’s not just online dating. I think it’s a combination of the following:

    1. premarital sex is even more on offer.
    2, There are just no stigmas against premarital sex anymore, now that even the Church has scant little to say about it.
    3. 5s, 6s and 7s learned they can get sex from the hot alphas. They don’t care about marriage since they’re not thinking about anything past next month, until they turn 30.
    4. Wider availability and use of food stamps, section 8 housing, free medical care.

  30. I’m probably a similar age as Rollo, or old enough to remember Nirvana being “Courtney Love’s boyfriend’s band”. But I have a different take on the “peak feminism” thing. Yes, men were expected to be somewhat beta-ized ‘sensitive males’, but on the other hand the girls were expected to be more sexually agressive and ‘cool’ aka easy. So to some extent it worked, for a while.

    This started getting dialed back in late 1990s with things like “The Rules” and the ‘bad boys’ meme in woman’s magazines. This was seen as a reassertion of feminine power, but at the same time they were re-pedestalizing themselves into a more submissive role, and daring men to knock them down. It’s not surprising that PUA tactics like “atomic negs” were being figured out around this time (as opposed to light teasing which always was standard flirting).

    Probably the biggest difference though was that those feminist generation girls very much demanded equity in the bedroom. There was always a lot of conditions about what a girl would or wouldn’t do because it was ‘demeaning’. In retrospect, they were probably somewhat rightfully afraid of being sexually dominated.

    As third wave feminism and things like BSDM started getting mainstream attention, it became “empowering” for girls to embrace their role as the submissive bottom.

    Unlimited Internet porn certainly didn’t hurt either. When the Gen Y girls who grew up schlicking it to the Internet started hitting the dating market it was immediately obvious how porno-ified they were compared to the older girls. Padded bras, thongs, wax jobs, and ready & willing to be dominated in the sack. I think the younger guys have no idea how good they got it.

    And yep, the urban legend that Clinton had the right to play around because Hillary refused to give head directly lead to a huge increase in blowjob production. Every girl wanted prove she wasn’t one of *those*.

    Also, you can’t underestimate the effects of the Internet. It used to be if a woman was horny and didn’t have a convenient bootie call, she pretty much had one option — go to a bar.

    That’s where I disagree on one point – Girls would hand out their numbers like candy. You’d exchange ten words, and sometimes they’d start scrawling their digits on a matchbook without even asking. (Everyone was a ‘bar smoker’.) Didn’t matter, they probably wouldn’t call you back, it that era’s attention seeking: “Three guys wanted my number”. I had a cereal bowl full of worthless numbers.

    Now a girl can easily message any guy she has ever been hot for on Facebook, or post a dating site ad and get 100 horny choad replies in a day and maybe one will be a sociosexual adonis. (I’ve never been good at pulling girls from bars, so I’m not sure how ‘PUA’ has adapted to this, but I imagine it really stresses one’s ‘long game’ or social game.)

  31. The biggest advantage today is the level of information available and the ease in which any one can access it. However the same factors of success remain regardless of the era in that one has to be able to readily apply the available information and develop the right amount of an edge to rise above the fray. If you are an older guy you either have to adapt to the changing terrain or die out (so to speak).

  32. I think it’s worse. Today’s woman has a lot more dating choices and the internet has made it even more prolific. Most guys seem have to work even harder then years prior, to get a decent date. A relatively attractive girl/woman on Match gets hundreds if not thousands of e-mails – Match has even installed filters so e-mails from men that don’t meet predefined criteria get deleted. Also, the taboo for women dating outside their race has been erased and, let’s face it, she can have as much sex as she wants without being called a slut as long as she’s somewhat discreet. Several of my friends, admittedly older, have thrown in the towel. Their true “red pill moment” wasn’t the the realization of deep, female inner nature. Rather, that they can enjoy their lives very fully without women in it – sports, games, mountain biking, great trips, new cars, eating out, etc. Call them what what you want (Betas, MGTOW, etc), but, frankly, once they got past the need for a woman – and all the problems they bring to the table – they really started to enjoy their lives. And, if they mood does strike, hookers, call girls, etc fill the gap. Not my choice, but i see of lot of this.

  33. Yes, men were expected to be somewhat beta-ized ‘sensitive males’, but on the other hand the girls were expected to be more sexually agressive and ‘cool’ aka easy. So to some extent it worked, for a while.

    This is my take as well. I was 16 in 1990 and obviously 26 in 2000, so for me the 90s was my entrance to the dating scene. I was a complete loser AFC up until about 95-96 but things started to change with many hours in the gym in 1996. One thing about the late 1990s that maybe is different from today…I don’t know….but I really don’t remember getting much resistance and this was the experience of some of the guys I’d go out to clubs with. Day 1 or Day 2 lays happened quite routinely. If you got back to their place, or got them back to yours, something was going down. There was none of this nonsense of just cuddling in bed that I’ve heard of.

    I wonder if this was sort of the peak of “female exploration” of their sexuality so they were pretty easy. Years later, reading The Game in 2005 and newly single in 2005-2006 it did seem like girls put up more resistance and girls tended to have more firm boundaries where getting a Day 2 lay wasn’t as likely as say 5-10 years earlier.

  34. @jimmy — You’re correct that there’s a lot of good information out there, but the converse of that is that the Internet has no quality filter, so it’s up to you to pick the peanuts out of the giganto turd. It’s great there are so many resources and “safe spaces” for guys to hash this stuff out, but at the same time the inexperienced guy is still largely at square one and going to have to learn things the hard way.

    (I read about some PUA instructors that weren’t getting laid, but “really knew the material”, which IMO is symptomatic of that whole scene. [Or any scene where there’s a bunch of systematized knowledge and jargon.] Those who can’t do, teach, I guess.)

  35. @ Mike C — There was a definite shift where girls stepped up their game and got a lot more feminine but also started screening a lot harder (for ‘dominance’ or bedroom prowess or provider qualities or whatever). You have to adjust for age differences, but I dated younger girls for as long as I could get away with it & definitely saw it.

    Can’t pretend to explain it totally. Maybe girls were rebelling against their feminist castrating mothers? Products of the ‘everyone is special’ (and gets a perfect mate) educational system? Economic uncertainty? A logical outcome of gender equity?

    But I’m reminded of some feminist who said “Porn is the atomic bomb against the female psyche”. When that got piped into everyone’s house via the internet it caused a mass psychological shift, especially with the younger generation. Betas got really beta and girls figured ‘OK, if that’s what you guys want…”

    Funny you mention 2005, as that was the year scoop-necked tops were in and every other woman was daring you to look into her cleavage instead of her eyes. Girls back in the 90s were wearing burkas in comparison.

  36. Say good bye to beta. Say c ya to buffers. Ya wanna be a man.. then stand up. Frame. Never Never forget… They are a plant… a flower. They only can have what comes to them. We are the bee’s. We are free. We go where we want. So who has the advantage? Take the honey.

  37. Oddly, Kurt Cobain doesn’t look too beta in that picture. Courtney is girlishly affectionate to him, he seems to be keeping cool.

  38. There have been two changes that have made it harder to pick up women better than 7’s: 1. Cell phones 2. Bottle service

    1. I started dating in ’99 and only a few people had cell phones back then. That made everyone who was out at a bar/club be in the moment. The hot girls where not texting each other, or the guys that they would hook up with later that night. That means if they were out they were more open to meeting new people and you could get a number if you could spend as little as five minutes talking to a girl. There were nights when I would get six numbers (three of which were fake) and ended up going out with two girls. Multiply that by the three nights a week and you could do some serious damage. This led to spending a lot of money going out and taking out girls. Eventually (~ 2 years) I learned to spend less, but not before amassing 40K+ in credit card debt. It was totally worth it.

    2. In the old days all people partied together, no matter how high-end the club was. True, there were places with VIP areas, but these were mostly in Hollywood and NYC. So once you figured out a way to get into the top notch places, you were roaming as an equal amongst some of the hottest women. Even if you had little to no game, there were still few guys approaching so if you approached every single hot girl at a place chances were good that you could get a few numbers from hot women. The funny thing was that girls would give out their number and answer “and who is this again” since they likely gave it to multiple people.

    Now with bottle service and other segmentation of clubs, most of the hot girls are given wrist bands to go into special areas that the common man has trouble accessing. Even when the girls come to the common area, they have most of their friends in the wristband area and so it’s more difficult to get something positive out of it.

    Flaking— it used to happen just as it does today, but I experienced less of it. Mostly because chicks went out with dudes out of curiosity if nothing else. Now, a girl is likely to remember you or not answer the phone at all so she has a pretty good idea about you from the get go. I remember at least five girls who went out with me and I ended banging and were difficult to reach on the phone (for various reasons, not home when I called, them calling me when I wasn’t home, roommates/family not passing on messages, etc.). But once I got them on the phone their curiosity took over. Now, if a girl doesn’t answer the phone or text, it means you’re out.

    So when did this golden era end? Some would say 03, others earlier, but nonetheless 99-02, where my golden years.

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