EastWind from the SoSuave forum has come to the existential conflict of the bitter taste of the red pill:
So, after reading through the most prominent articles of Rollo’s, Roissy’s and some of Dalrock’s, alongside this comment and this comment by Mark Minter, I’ve reached a point of depression and giddiness at the same time.
Their take on the female imperative, female behavior, marriage, relationships and everything else rings so true to me, it’s unbelievable. I find it impossible that any guy could read these posts, then go back outside and compare what he sees and what he has experienced and is experiencing to what he has read and not see the truth in it. Maybe the reason this understanding comes naturally to me is because I’ve seen and experienced enough (emotional) pain at the hands of fellow humans to know for damn certain a human being is capable of just about anything given the right circumstances, and maybe it’s because I’ve dabbled in this “game” and “manosphere” stuff for near to ten years now, ever since I was 15, so I am actually an example of someone who was, in a way, brought up with it.
And I see the divorce rate and the cock carousel riders and my friends who get knocked around by their girls and my colleague who announced he’s going to be a daddy and he’s so happy and, isn’t life full of miracles, both methods of contraception they were using failed at the same time, what a coincidence, and he’s an engineer who deals with fail rates, no less. So now he’s going to be a daddy on a PhD salary because his girl will stay at home and, what do you know, the baby’s due two months after she’s getting her degree, another happy coincidence.
And I’m starting to wake up, not from the dream of happy equal relationships, I had forgotten that years ago, but from everything, and I realize:
The true red pill doesn’t tell you, as a man, that women are sh1t-testing you, it makes you see that everything and everyone in your life and society is grooming you up to be a provider, to be someone who does work for other people’s benefits, to give your money and LIFE for some cause that is not your own.
It’s enough to seriously depress a man. This had been creeping up in the back of my head for some time now, Rollo and co. just had the words to give it a shape; that most of what we do is utterly pointless if we let go of trying to obtain women. Suddenly nothing matters much anymore.
I’m supposed to get a good education, a steady job, a comfortable apartment, for what? Other people tell me it’s so I can take care of a family, but now the only reason for me to do so is for mysecurity and convenience, I find myself planning out my life without a woman, with a comfortable minimum of expenditures and “furnitures” and a maximum of free time and enjoyable activities, with a job that provides me with enough cash to live, do the things I like and put some on the side in case I do get old.
But it’s scary. It’s fucking scary, believe me. Suddenly the questions everybody is asking, here and in real life, i.e. “how can I get a girlfriend?”, “how can I get laid?”, “what will I do/what will become of my family if I lose my job?”, they lose all their importance. I find myself wondering why I should have to head to some place everyday, whether I want to or not, whether it’s interesting or not, when I could be doing more enjoyable things, and no matter how much you love your work, there’s always more enjoyable things than work. My PhD topic is somewhat interesting, but I’m pissed off by the “office politics” going on at my institute, even though it’s a bloody university, and you know what? If I leave, or am made to leave, it doesn’t matter because I only have myself to take care of.
So a side effect of realizing that you will never find a woman who will be thankful for the sacrifices you make for her is utter and total freedom. And freedom is huge, and it’s scary. And I can’t handle it. I’m sticking with my position because, well, it’s somewhat interesting, but mainly because I don’t know what else to do. I’ve never been prepared for this, never been told that dreams can be reached, how to reach them.
And another thing is, and this is for you, Rollo, well, what about women now? I’m 25, I’m eligible, and every woman my age, even the nice, kind, beautiful, sweet, intelligent ones, who gives me serious attention creeps me out because I know what she’s really after.
The Red Pill makes you see that the only people who love you for who you truly are is your parents, if you’re lucky, and every other person in this world is going to expect something from an association with you, with women expecting your life for it. And this is why we cry so miserably when our parents die (I did when my mom died), it’s the subconscious knowledge that no-one will love us like they did, be there for us like they were, without expecting anything in return, simply because it was us.
All my friends and family tell me, well, yes, bad things could happen to you, but you just have to find the RIGHT girl, and in my eyes all of them are insane. This isn’t like having to take the right street in a peaceful German town or you’ll get mugged, this is like walking around Johannesburg blindfolded.
I’m not trying to fight the concepts, I see their truth. But I can bloody well be disgusted at the way the world works.
So what about the “giddiness” I talked about up there? Well, feeling free makes you giddy. It makes you VERY giddy. The feeling that your life isn’t planned out or that there’s only one true possible path is positively exhilarating. But it’s also extremely scary.
Eastwind finds himself on the cusp of something great, but at the same time scary. He’s the first of a generation of Game aware men who were ‘raised’ in a post red pill internet culture. He’s part of a generation of men coming to terms with the very disturbing realities the still evolving manosphere has presented for him, but he’s still in a position of choosing how he will use that awareness to plan his future life.
There are going to be more men like Eastwind in the coming decades. Men asking ‘what’s the point?’ as they move into the primes of their lives. These are the guys who will truly be men going their own way; unmotivated by life plans that were presented to him, but rather men reimagining those plans according to the unplugged reality they’re now aware of.
These are the Men that the feminine imperative is threatened by – a vanguard of men who are aware of their real value to women and society, and can make life impacting choices free from the influence of the imperative. I understand the ‘giddiness’ in that freedom, but I also understand the hostility that will be leveled at them by a feminized social mindset which can’t afford to have these Men making other men aware of their servitude by exemplifying red-pill awareness in their life choices.
The system will fight Eastwind in every arena; psychological, familial, sociological, financial, political, every feminized aspect that can pull the crab back into the barrel will be used against him. The primary weapon of the feminine imperative is male self-doubt. Doubt that he’ll be able to craft a life by his plan, doubt that he’s wrong about the machinations of the imperative, doubt in the certainty of his new awareness, doubt that he’ll ever experience love in his own context. Because once he doubts his certainty of purpose, once he doubts his power to direct his own course, that is when the imperative welcomes him to its comfortable reality.
The anxiety and fear you feel is the the result of being cut away from a system that’s already established for you. The giddiness is from the potential to create a new system for yourself.
@ Eastwind: By saying this: “Something’s “useful” if it serves MY purpose, starting with food and shelter and ending with, possibly, entertainment.” – you are closer to the goal line than you might think. To cheekily paraphrase a famous quote: When I hear “You’re not a real man unless you [x]” – that’s when I reach for my revolver. For years like all good boys we sought “approval” by “doing what we were told”. The harness comes off when you no longer care about validation of your existence from some moralistic loudmouth whose life is so shitty, the only pleasure… Read more »
Student001, how can I contact you? Or click my name to contact me.
I believe I fall in the category of being “raised” in the red pill culture. I stumbled it back in the days of Mystery and David DeAngelo (SP?). I lurked reading Sosuave and was aware of Rollo before the blog ever existed. Before “read the Rollo and Heartiste archives”, it was read the “DJ Bible”. I remember reading some poster saying how much crap he went through before learning game missing out years. I felt glad that I might not deal with it at all reading that post probably a decade younger than those posters. But my mind is fixated… Read more »
@Good Luck Chuck
I feel where you’re coming from but it seems like you’re neglecting women’s true nature with wishful thinking. Your “young, attractive, submissive, chaste woman who I could be reasonably sure would remain faithful to me” — still desperately desires the cock of hot alpha men. Pretending otherwise is wishful thinking. Societal structures and shaming can prevent her straying from you, but don’t doubt that she desires it. Much better to actually be the alpha guy she desires.
eon’s comment at April 29th, 2013 at 10:11 am was a dead on explanation of this dynamic.
[…] has swallowed the Red Pill. As quoted by Rollo, he’s both excited and frightened [emphasis not […]
eon, “If she is with an alpha, perhaps no other man will be able to create a pull strong enough to change that “xxx” nametag to one with a “yyy”, but the fact remains that the suicide rate for a widower skyrockets, while the death of a spouse has no equivalent emotional effect on women.” Are you sure this is only due to greater love, felt by men? Men also do other risky, daring stuff, it’s how they’re built. Women are more often too risk-avoiding to do something like that. She will think about suicide, but will be too chicken… Read more »
Some women have jumped on funeral pyres.
An interesting take on the FI:
http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/2013/04/my-address-to-ny-state-libertarian.html
I think I can put a question that succinctly encapsulate the ultimate direction that EastWind show in that path: “Unless the path is completely off script, how can one trust you’re following your own plan?” This. I’ll re-iterate: I’m seeing, but I don’t know how to act. In a way, I’m frozen with fear that I might take a wrong path. I even KNOW there’s no “wrong path”. I’m also wondering how much of George Calin’s “the lower class is there only to scare the shit out of the middle class” is true. A lot of my motivation to stay… Read more »
Hi Rollo,
Hope all is well. Im looking forward to the book! I wanted to ask is there any way I could get your blog posts in PDF/ebook format. That way I can read them on the kindle. I would be willing to pay for the service. if yourself or anybody knows how to do this please hit me up privately on femedy@gmail.com
Thanks!
Didn’t read all comments so excuse me if it’s been said, but you do have a chance of getting sick, maybe not at 25, but around 50, sure. So there is a good chance with no one to take care of you at 50 (parents gone, etc), you might want to at least invest in a surrogate child or something. Also Philippines is the only country that doesn’t allow divorce, maybe look outside Western culture.
@EastWind I’m new to this MGTOW stuff, but not new to Game theory. Are these asshats convincing you that your grad. degree or PhD is a bad idea? Educating yourself and improving career prospects is BAD? Don’t listen to these uneducated basement trolls who haven’t gotten laid in years. Building your career and skillset is ALWAYS a smart move, as part of game is your career power & status. These MGTOW guys who pump gas will not get far once they are over 35. Stay the course, and don’t let some internet asshat tell you that your degree is a… Read more »
Leftbelt,
I’m well aware of the very positive aspects of getting a PhD. Nobody is going to talk me out of something I want. But it doesn’t hurt to become aware of the fact that this isn’t the only path in life. Who knows, at the end I’ll probably finish it.
But I feel much more free knowing that the world isn’t going to end if I don’t.
I’m not sure you’re getting my meaning here.
@Kate Some women have jumped on funeral pyres. Yes. I think I can see why you might have posted this Kate. I think I can put myself in your shoes and feel both revolted and upset that my own nature is being impugned when I’m quite certain I would never do anything as selfish as is suggested in the sphere. If I’ve hit the mark, let me say that your feelings are appropriate. What I think you are missing is just how highly the beta will internally value women *before* coming to any red-pill realization. This devaluation that you may… Read more »
Jeremy: So, men and women are equal? KIDDING!!! 🙂
Nice comment. It is sort of my impression that the women who did that did so not only out of loyalty but also in the sense that their lives were, in some ways, over anyway. Without a man they were nothing. I should really do some research to see if its accurate that widows would become akin to outcasts/pariahs. Was a widowed woman looked upon as a burden to society or was she looked upon as disloyal to continue living without her husband?
@Kate …Without a man they were nothing. I should really do some research to see if its accurate that widows would become akin to outcasts/pariahs. Was a widowed woman looked upon as a burden to society or was she looked upon as disloyal to continue living without her husband? This is absolutely true. I have no documentation to back this up. But unless I’m going insane, I recall that in human history there has always been a tendency for widowed women past child-rearing age with no family to be considered a burden and sometimes outcast. Women’s value was historically locked… Read more »
Jeremy: So maybe a childless woman was expected to immolate and one with a family was not? Time to do some reading! Would be a good article topic for me.
ps: Stop looking up my dress!
Eon….
“One frequently hears of remarried widowers who continue to moon about their dead first wives, but for a remarried widow to show any such sentimentality would be a nine days’ wonder. Once replaced, a dead husband is expunged from the minutes. And so is a dead love.”
– H.L. Mencken
Kate,
I only mouse-hovered, that’s not the same as looking.
@Martian:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/03/war-brides/
The power of the Female Imparative. A little off-topic here. As we know, an NBA player came out as gay this week. Now I’m thinking, OK, there’s no way women can touch this topic to steer it in their direction. I was wrong. Jason Collins (the player) came out, I don’t have a problem with it. Apparently he was “dating” a former college girlfriend for eight years. She’s not bitter, but boy is the media. Collins is said to have “misled her” and being “dishonest” and so forth. OK, Collins was a bit foolish on this, but shouldn’t ANYONE, male… Read more »
Jeremy: I just found it comical to see your gravatar with the binoculars under mine. lol
Eastwind, re: “I’m also wondering how much of George Calin’s ‘the lower class is there only to scare the shit out of the middle class’ is true. A lot of my motivation to stay in the PhD is, of course, fear of ‘social demotion'” I wouldn’t say that’s not true. What I would say is that the truth is barely, just a thread barely, more complex than that. One of the mighty frustrations I have with the manosphere is the wild misunderstanding of capitalism that is combined with both a misplaced arrogance of self-attribution of great understanding of capitalism, together… Read more »
Woman is like nature. Nature is cruel and indifferent. Sometimes it’s alluring and beautiful but it knows no mercy. It can’t be reasoned with. It can be conquered and dominated – it must be, for survival. The feminine enjoys to be dominated by what she perceives to be superiour. That’s part of her psychology. How many men would be monogamous, if it were socially acceptable to get a woman pregnant and move on to the next one without paying a dime? What if men weren’t ridiculed but intrinsically valued being superiour to women? What if women were materially dependant on… Read more »
OT but every time I hear it or think about it I think that my nomination for “most beta song of all time” is Stabbing Westward, “What do I have to do?” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNsVpL8TDLA&feature=share&list=FLx-LwlxTIc70IselW1TSucg
ugggghhhh!
So I’m not somewhat-new to Game (if you count 2 years as “old”) but am new to the Red Pill. Im 17. WTF DO I DO? What am I supposed to do with this knowledge? Frankly, it scares the shit out of me. My whole life has been planned on something as superficial as this. Also, what other posts do I read to learn more about this concept?
Case, very elaborate answer, and somehow I feel we think along the same lines; however, your last two paragraphs don’t make it quite clear what you do, indeed, think about that “advanced degree”. You also talk about these “doors”; what I’m not sure about is whether you’re arguing they exist, so we need some kind of proof on paper of our intellectual capacity (assuming a degree is such a proof) to cross certain doors? Compared to the paragraph just before that, I would say that you recognize the value of both education (and the proof thereof, i.e. a diploma) and… Read more »
@Eastwind
The inability of the bureaucracies to distinguish and advance people based on merit (as this requires a value system and standards for judging) has led to the rise of credential-ism. By getting a PhD, you will have more opportunity to advance in these bureaucracies.
I think the big, big trick in life is figuring out when we’re being led on someone else’s path.
The more important skill is being able to evaluate the integrity, goals, and rationale for the path and those promoting it.
Getting a PhD IS a meritocracy. It is a shitton of work, you fool. Do you see morons with 90 IQ’s with PhD’s? No.
It is a shitton of work, you fool.
Sure.
Do you see morons with 90 IQ’s with PhD’s?
It is unlikely someone with a 90 IQ would receive a PhD, correct.
Eastwind, Your personal strategy needs to depend on the specific asset/liability mix you have and I don’t have enough knowledge of that to opine too much by way of specifics. One thing I observed for many years is that there are any number of positions that allow either higher ed with less experience or lesser ed with more experience (i.e.: 10-15 years) … the advanced degree opens all of those to you. People looking on with only a bachelors degrees are essentially being told “nothing to see here” and they dutifully move on and promptly forget (if they were manospherean… Read more »
deti quotes HUSsies: –you gotta learn Game so you can get a girl to love you and marry you. Otherwise, you’ll die old and alone and NO. ONE. WILL. EVER. LOVE. YOU. This one is comedy gold, because the projection of women’s fear onto men is so blatant and obvious. And the irony is thick, because even though Giggles the Incompetent claims to know all about men, if she’d ever read Feldstein’s little book For Women Only she would not let such a stupid comment float by uncorrected. Given a choice between being loved, and being respected, men choose respect… Read more »
Getting a PhD IS a meritocracy.
In some fields, yeppers. In others, not so much.
It is a shitton of work, you fool.
Yes, it is true that many PhD’s are now just attendance and obedience awards; “Do this shit ton of mindless regurgitation of your advisor’s prejudices, and you, too, can call yourself ‘Doctor'”. Thanks for pointing that out.
Do you see morons with 90 IQ’s with PhD’s? No.
Ever met someone with a dual PhD in English Lit and Women’s Studies? No? Oh, you’re missing a real treat, let me tell you.
You live in a bubble. Ever meet someone with a dual career at Walmart and JiffyLube? No? Oh, you’re missing a real treat, let me tell you. Then talk to me about the “idiot” PhD.
You live in a bubble. How do you know this to be true? Ever meet someone with a dual career at Walmart and JiffyLube? No? Non sequitur, but I will grant you obviously have more knowledge of both career options than I do. Perhaps you should consider management ? In any event, I’ve known a variety of working people in my time, some were very bright, some were very dull. However, from personal observation, I can state that someone who holds a dual PhD in English LIt and Womens’ Studies need not be of above average intelligence, and in fact,… Read more »
I worked in an environment with a load of PhDs. Technical ones actually. Pretty much 1/2 and 1/2. 1/2 needed to be taken very seriously and for that matter were paid like they should be and pretty much if you didn’t take them seriously on the basis of your merits you were promptly run asunder. The other 1/2 – uhg. Sadly, the other 1/2 included in its number some of the highest paid of all. Not sure what the point of arguing it is. A PhD is a technique, a key to certain doors. It is by itself not a… Read more »
We getting too caught up on the PhD thing. It’s a proxy to the main point. What EastWind took and ran with the major question I posed is “Unless the path is completely off script, how can one trust you’re following your own plan?” PhD are only one example. How can one really know you just like the subject and getting the PhD is the best path to study more or just pushed by the system to become a better cog? It applies to so many things. Look around and I’m sure you can find comments and posts that argues… Read more »
Heartiste just made a new post and I believe it is quite relevant. Especially this quote: There are whole armies of beta males who spend months and even years in book clubs, at speed dating events, and in bars and happy hours hoping to meet that special someone but coming up empty every time, while convicted murderers sit in cells as ladies basically throw caution to the wind and hurl themselves at them. With context that the woman has created a dating website for the convicts. While many advice given to improve and go for things for oneself. taiyuu_otoko response… Read more »
You can not take the Heartiste post literally. Again, NAWALT. Just because a few dozen nutjobs go date Alpha convicts, the other 99.99% of women will not. Yet, we conclude “All women love convicted killers”?? Get your heads out of your asses.
I know the PhD thread is done, but I really want to know the “red pill” logic behind considering education a bad thing? I am a man who has taken his education and career seriously. I have a LOT of money, and can basically buy anything I want. I basically do whatever I want, and answer to no one. How can you obsess over being Alpha, yet espouse living like a poor broke beta? I really want to understand this. How is having a kick ass career and a shitton of money a BAD thing? (what the PhD represents, as… Read more »
@Dreamer Your confusion seems to stem from the wholesale acceptance of the “alpha/beta” dichotomy; a dichotomy which the originators of the terms cannot even define. This is evident in your obsession with “your own plan.” For instance, could you even study at a university in the majority of the world even a few centuries ago? Did you personally create said universities? Consider this requote: I think the big, big trick in life is figuring out when we’re being led on someone else’s path. The more important skill is being able to evaluate the integrity, goals, and rationale for the path… Read more »
@ leftbelt
You miss the streaming thread entirely, ahem oh the left of the bell curve you have women swooning for convicts( i had a look at that site by the way 70% are in for 1st degree murder) and moving towards the mean by 1,2&3 standard deviation you move by degree of assholery. The sampling distribution of the sample mean is not the same as the population mean but in this case does it make any difference what inferences we make. It s as clear as spring water…
What inferences we make are everything. Do you really think HB9s and HB10’s are pursuing these inmates? Are you that much of an idiot stuck in his Stats 101 textbook? Are MGTOW types really this retarded? The women who are chasing these convicts are most likely obese 2’s and 3’s. Wake up and check the kurtosis, you fool.
Clear as spring water? LOL, why don’t you actually try dating a woman one day. I can assure you that models are not lining up to meet convicts, you delusional internet MGTOW idiot. Your irrelevant reference to Central Limit Theorem only proves your detachment from reality. I have lost all respect for anything MGTOW after reading only 2 Rollo posts.
Laws must change. That is the end game.
Knowledge is good. Self determination is good. However, the dystopia will progress until the family laws are rebalanced (or the society colllapses).
[…] Fear and Freedom […]
@immediate here you can find plenty of info : http://www.shrink4men.com/2013/05/29/abused-men-how-covert-abuse-begins-part-one/comment-page-8/#comment-9053
[…] Try to keep this last part in mind as you read what I propose in these next two posts. I read a lot of guys in various forums getting despondent after having the red pill make sense to them, but that despondency is really a simple lack of not having a path already preset for them to follow. Instead of the easy answers and prerequisite responsibilities that the blue pill and the Feminine Imperative had ready for him to follow, now in his new awareness he’s tasked with making a new path for himself, and that’s both scary and… Read more »
Man this blog is so great–even better than Heartiste. I need to spend an hour every day until I have read every post here.
Let me add, this 25 year old dude is lucky. It is 10X as depressing to discover the red pill *after* being a beta divorced dad at age 35, with daughters!!! I no longer get to check out, go MGTOW — first, my ex is already getting 55% of my income and second, I care about my daughters — now and in the future. The backlash that is coming from men, the increased MGTOW, is going to come into effect and hurt MY daughters in about 20 years when they should be enjoying a good life. I’m doing my best… Read more »
Beautiful
[…] Fear and Freedom – Rollo, Great post. This one really resonates with me. The anxiety and fear you feel is the the result of being cut away from a system that’s already established for … […]
Pretty much sums it up.
Either learn it this way, or learn the hard way. Lesson is the same.
Pity the guys who did everything FI “right” and wonder every day what went wrong.
“So a side effect of realizing that you will never find a woman who will be thankful for the sacrifices you make for her is utter and total freedom. And freedom is huge, and it’s scary. And I can’t handle it. I’m sticking with my position because, well, it’s somewhat interesting, but mainly because I don’t know what else to do. I’ve never been prepared for this, never been told that dreams can be reached, how to reach them.” I am reading Esther Vilar’s The Manipulated Man, and, with admirable foresight and insight, she says that the idealization of women… Read more »
@Rollo Holy-Moly! I have only just come across this article from April 2013 now — six years down the line: https://therationalmale.com/2013/04/26/fear-and-freedom/ I have to confess to a certain degree of envy for @EastWind. Despite his very understandable perplexity, he is / was in an exciting position to have come to the realisation of the degree in which the societal FI had ‘mapped-out’ his future, at the then-age of 25! Bravo ! I am twice his age, and only coming to this realisation now. 😄 Had I known this as a young man, I would have made very different choices in… Read more »