Fear and Freedom


EastWind from the SoSuave forum has come to the existential conflict of the bitter taste of the red pill:

So, after reading through the most prominent articles of Rollo’s, Roissy’s and some of Dalrock’s, alongside this comment and this comment by Mark Minter, I’ve reached a point of depression and giddiness at the same time.

Their take on the female imperative, female behavior, marriage, relationships and everything else rings so true to me, it’s unbelievable. I find it impossible that any guy could read these posts, then go back outside and compare what he sees and what he has experienced and is experiencing to what he has read and not see the truth in it. Maybe the reason this understanding comes naturally to me is because I’ve seen and experienced enough (emotional) pain at the hands of fellow humans to know for damn certain a human being is capable of just about anything given the right circumstances, and maybe it’s because I’ve dabbled in this “game” and “manosphere” stuff for near to ten years now, ever since I was 15, so I am actually an example of someone who was, in a way, brought up with it.

And I see the divorce rate and the cock carousel riders and my friends who get knocked around by their girls and my colleague who announced he’s going to be a daddy and he’s so happy and, isn’t life full of miracles, both methods of contraception they were using failed at the same time, what a coincidence, and he’s an engineer who deals with fail rates, no less. So now he’s going to be a daddy on a PhD salary because his girl will stay at home and, what do you know, the baby’s due two months after she’s getting her degree, another happy coincidence.

And I’m starting to wake up, not from the dream of happy equal relationships, I had forgotten that years ago, but from everything, and I realize:

The true red pill doesn’t tell you, as a man, that women are sh1t-testing you, it makes you see that everything and everyone in your life and society is grooming you up to be a provider, to be someone who does work for other people’s benefits, to give your money and LIFE for some cause that is not your own.

It’s enough to seriously depress a man. This had been creeping up in the back of my head for some time now, Rollo and co. just had the words to give it a shape; that most of what we do is utterly pointless if we let go of trying to obtain women. Suddenly nothing matters much anymore.

I’m supposed to get a good education, a steady job, a comfortable apartment, for what? Other people tell me it’s so I can take care of a family, but now the only reason for me to do so is for mysecurity and convenience, I find myself planning out my life without a woman, with a comfortable minimum of expenditures and “furnitures” and a maximum of free time and enjoyable activities, with a job that provides me with enough cash to live, do the things I like and put some on the side in case I do get old.

But it’s scary. It’s fucking scary, believe me. Suddenly the questions everybody is asking, here and in real life, i.e. “how can I get a girlfriend?”, “how can I get laid?”, “what will I do/what will become of my family if I lose my job?”, they lose all their importance. I find myself wondering why I should have to head to some place everyday, whether I want to or not, whether it’s interesting or not, when I could be doing more enjoyable things, and no matter how much you love your work, there’s always more enjoyable things than work. My PhD topic is somewhat interesting, but I’m pissed off by the “office politics” going on at my institute, even though it’s a bloody university, and you know what? If I leave, or am made to leave, it doesn’t matter because I only have myself to take care of.

So a side effect of realizing that you will never find a woman who will be thankful for the sacrifices you make for her is utter and total freedom. And freedom is huge, and it’s scary. And I can’t handle it. I’m sticking with my position because, well, it’s somewhat interesting, but mainly because I don’t know what else to do. I’ve never been prepared for this, never been told that dreams can be reached, how to reach them.

And another thing is, and this is for you, Rollo, well, what about women now? I’m 25, I’m eligible, and every woman my age, even the nice, kind, beautiful, sweet, intelligent ones, who gives me serious attention creeps me out because I know what she’s really after.

The Red Pill makes you see that the only people who love you for who you truly are is your parents, if you’re lucky, and every other person in this world is going to expect something from an association with you, with women expecting your life for it. And this is why we cry so miserably when our parents die (I did when my mom died), it’s the subconscious knowledge that no-one will love us like they did, be there for us like they were, without expecting anything in return, simply because it was us.

All my friends and family tell me, well, yes, bad things could happen to you, but you just have to find the RIGHT girl, and in my eyes all of them are insane. This isn’t like having to take the right street in a peaceful German town or you’ll get mugged, this is like walking around Johannesburg blindfolded.

I’m not trying to fight the concepts, I see their truth. But I can bloody well be disgusted at the way the world works.

So what about the “giddiness” I talked about up there? Well, feeling free makes you giddy. It makes you VERY giddy. The feeling that your life isn’t planned out or that there’s only one true possible path is positively exhilarating. But it’s also extremely scary.

Eastwind finds himself on the cusp of something great, but at the same time scary. He’s the first of a generation of Game aware men who were ‘raised’ in a post red pill internet culture. He’s part of a generation of men coming to terms with the very disturbing realities the still evolving manosphere has presented for him, but he’s still in a position of choosing how he will use that awareness to plan his future life.

There are going to be more men like Eastwind in the coming decades. Men asking ‘what’s the point?’ as they move into the primes of their lives. These are the guys who will truly be men going their own way; unmotivated by life plans that were presented to him, but rather men reimagining those plans according to the unplugged reality they’re now aware of.

These are the Men that the feminine imperative is threatened by – a vanguard of men who are aware of their real value to women and society, and can make life impacting choices free from the influence of the imperative. I understand the ‘giddiness’ in that freedom, but I also understand the hostility that will be leveled at them by a feminized social mindset which can’t afford to have these Men making other men aware of their servitude by exemplifying red-pill awareness in their life choices.

The system will fight Eastwind in every arena; psychological, familial, sociological, financial, political, every feminized aspect that can pull the crab back into the barrel will be used against him. The primary weapon of the feminine imperative is male self-doubt. Doubt that he’ll be able to craft a life by his plan, doubt that he’s wrong about the machinations of the imperative, doubt in the certainty of his new awareness, doubt that he’ll ever experience love in his own context. Because once he doubts his certainty of purpose, once he doubts his power to direct his own course, that is when the imperative welcomes him to its comfortable reality.

The anxiety and fear you feel is the the result of being cut away from a system that’s already established for you. The giddiness is from the potential to create a new system for yourself.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

159 comments on “Fear and Freedom

  1. This is what will cause change. True change whether it be for the better of society or it’s own destruction. If Game was partially created by studying how a woman plays men and then flipping the script on them, consider this the coup de grace. Running their own careerist/SATC scheme right down their throats.

    If you can get the greater betas and the alphas on board to never marry until they are past their prime as the feminists do, you will have brought down the FI to it’s knees. If the norm becomes that every guy worth a damn fucks around until 45 and they don’t feel shame in doing so. It’s game over.

  2. He’ll have to resist being suckered back into taking the blue pill. Emotionally, most men at some point want to settle with one woman as his wife and have children. Evidentiary and Logical reasons say not to in today’s world because women are not trained to appreciate what men have done for them especially their husbands and worse they appreciate even less what men especially husbands have attempted and failed to do for women especially wives. Emotionally wanting what men of yesteryear were more likely to have had, an appreciative woman, is less likely. Even many men like Mark Minter stated did not have this in yesteryear. Remember Mark Minter’s words and live for yourself because men of yesteryear seldom had the choices we men have today, often men of yesteryear were more miserable than you might think, and even if they were happy these yesteryear men worked themselves to death trying to provide for wives, progeny and other family members just like the miserable men did. Happy or miserable didn’t look terribly different in many respects for the men of yesteryear. It would be nice if you helped your fellow human being especially your fellow man, but it is not required. You are free to do as you like. I’d rather have freedom, but realize that freedom is not a panacea to solve all one’s problems. You will gain new problems with freedom and lose others. Some problems no matter what you do whether that be take the blue pill or take the red pill are not solvable and you must bear them as best as you can. Life is a tradeoff and you must make choices no matter what. Good Hunting, Good Luck and Break a leg.

  3. I envy these first generation red pillars. Remember society and pretty much everyone else does not give a crap about you. Just go forth and enjoy life with all your new found wisdom and thank all the old guys who spoon fed it to you.

  4. I am excited to hear of ‘red pill awareness’ from a 25yo man. My son is 9yo — and Daddy is teaching him. 😉

  5. Rollo,

    Great post. This one really resonates with me.

    The anxiety and fear you feel is the the result of being cut away from a system that’s already established for you. The giddiness is from the potential to create a new system for yourself.

    IMO, the ultimate red-pill truth is that you can live your life according to your own script. For many people though, it can be a terrifying prospect to lose the script that has been inculcated to them from either/both their parents and society/feminine imperative. Figuring out what you really want and how you really want to live can be a scary prospect.

    These are the Men that the feminine imperative is threatened by – a vanguard of men who are aware of their real value to women and society, and can make life impacting choices free from the influence of the imperative. I understand the ‘giddiness’ in that freedom, but I also understand the hostility that will be leveled at them ***by a feminized social mindset which can’t afford to have these Men making other men aware of their servitude by exemplifying red-pill awareness in their life choices.*** The system will fight Eastwind in every arena; psychological, familial, sociological, financial, political, every feminized aspect that can pull the crab back into the barrel will be used against him. The primary weapon of the feminine imperative is male self-doubt.

    Yes to all of this. If one wants to see this exact dynamic in play, go check out the HUS thread The Lofty Aspirations of Millennial Women and read the back and forth between Mr. Wavevector and Escoffier and Susan and other female commenters regarding marriage. I’ll note that I have been placed into permanent moderation at HUS (which really is a de facto banning). For the record, I’ve made my peace with Susan and I’m totally OK with her running her blog however she wishes (and I have no ill will towards her) but the fact remains that it proves what you say above. Men like us who would espouse and share red-pill truths and perspectives are “dangerous” and bad influences on younger men who may yet still be oblivious and blissfully ignorant. In that thread, both Wavevector and Escoffier who both state they are happily married nonetheless share some of the risk factors associated with marriage and that sends many of the women into righteous indignation over their comments.

    Generally speaking, people react negatively to people who essentially serve as mirrors to question their life choices. My fiancee has told me of an interesting dynamic with other women. She and I have no plans to have children, but she will often be asked about having children. She used to simply answer “No, I don’t really want them” but she noted she would almost get outright hostility to that answer. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON’T WANT CHILDREN? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Now she just answers “It’s in God’s hands” as a non-answer answer. But one has to ask why does that answer engender such outright hostility. I think that is because it forces someone to think of the life script they’ve lived out. They may have the house with the white picket fence with 2.5 kids because “everyone knows that is what you are supposed to do”.

    Similarly, men who choose to live life according to a more Red Pill perspective, and that might be MGTOW, running a soft harem, or being monogamously married in a traditional patriarchal Captain-First Officer structure will raise eyebrows and questions for people living more according to the societally defined script.

    I think we’ve reached a tipping point where increasingly Red Pill views won’t simply be ignored. They are spreading too much, and the other side is launching their counteroffensive. You see that in articles like the one where some woman claimed feminisim is really the answer for disaffected/dissatisfied men and it is the “Patriarchy” hurting them too. I think we will see more and more Orwellian tactics and misinformation. I don’t want to jinx you, but I think it will be interesting to see what happens where your book comes out. The worst nightmare of the feminine imperative might be it spreading like say The Game by Neil Strauss.

    I suspect most guys like EastWind once exposed to these concepts, and theories immediately realize they describe the reality they’ve seen and experienced. For that reason, exposure to the ideas will try to be contained or vilified.

  6. There can’t be many old guys like me who read this who would not give their left nut to be in the position of Eastwind. Hopefully my sons will became as self aware as he is. And quit fretting about the faculty politics. It exists in every job in the private sector too. Just plan for yourself. Maybe you will get lucky and find a red pill woman like Judgybitch. Not too likely though.

  7. Maybe, just maybe, contemplate that ‘there’s nothing new under the sun.’ I would submit that it’s always been like this. There have been deballed, pestered and nagged beta men since the dawn of civilization, just as there have been alpha men who would wave their hand sans emotion at a woman’s most hysterical tears as so much annoyance; and there exists every sort of man on the spectrum in between. I think we only see, recognize and are able to battle-plan against the feminine imperative because technology and social media allows us to collectively see what our fathers couldn’t collectively see before. We can now track the beast in real time.

    But what of it? Living the awesome bachelor life without women (or just by using them for personal pleasure) has ALWAYS been with us as a potential option, in every society and in every time. That you didn’t think to exercise that choice before wasn’t due to the feminine imperative jedi-clouding your mind, it was due to the fact that you didn’t think you COULD make that choice. EastWind now realizes that he can… but some of us knew that prior to downing the red pill as well. Downing the red pill – and reading the good works of Roissy, Rollo, Roosh, etc., only reinforce the sensibility of doing so in our modern, deteriorating world – going your own way on your own terms. It’s just another option, but by far not the only option.

    My grand uncle was a dashing bachelor in the British cavalry many decades ago, and it was said that he went through women like fire through a field… never getting attached and never caring if he did. He was an alpha in his time (with one helluva cool ‘stache, may I add). He died alone, but I would surmise not unhappily. Fast forward to my solid beta brother getting married contemporarily – then divorced – with a harpy ball buster who even now preys on his mind and who STILL makes him believe that there’s a chance at future love (despite my best efforts to get him to swallow the red pill and wake up). I only recount those anecdotes to suggest that men from different eras have always had the choice to be the man they wanted to be – and being defined by a woman – or taken to the curb by one – or using them as your playthings – is a choice they make.

    No, I think EastWind is going to be fine. If he educates himself about game and its application to life in general, as he’s doing now, he may just love that bachelor life – be liberated by it – and yet still find a woman he loves… but on HIS terms, not hers. And he now has the resources to predict those femine downturns and handle them to come out on top. I think that’s the primary beauty of the manosphere sharing these ideals.

    Sure women want superiority; Rollo would say that hypergamy even demands it… safety, security, better genes for their kids, a predominant say in the workings of the house, etc., but you’re only fooling yourself if you think it’s a new phenomenon. Greeks wrote about nagging wives a hundred years ago. Women haven’t changed – they’ve always wanted to be primary in a man’s life – even to rule over him… IF a man lets them. But should you get angry at them for it? No, you chuckle as you would at the antics of a child, pat her on the ass and tell her to go get dinner ready. As my grandpappy used to say, “Getting angry and a woman for being inconstant is like getting angry at a bird for flying or a fish for swimming. They are what they are.” (He also said “Boy, women are like flowers: they look pretty and smell nice, but when you pick one, they wilt and die on you.” A funny cad, my grandpap, but I digress.)

    Again, what’s different today – and what should make EastWind and his generation supremely happy (and consider themselves incredibly lucky), is that the work done by Rollo, Athol – and all of you – give them the chance to avoid learning through making mistakes… to be a Hercules which women swoon for, and to rule women as they see fit.

  8. The 50 year old female marketing manager at my office is a flibberty jibbit of the highest order (in a Joe vs. The Volcano kind of way). Reasonably attractive and in great shape for a woman of any age. Divorced but boyfriended with a guy she must not like because she tells me she’s been on dating sites. She’s seen my profile on there. I’m 38. So that’s what she’s searching. She’s also mentioned that guys are all needy. She’s shit out of luck and never going to be happy because effectively any man that decides he wants to be with her will invariably become needy in her eyes. Where am I going with this? Here:

    She found out a few days ago I’m currently seeing a 21 yr. old. A very cute 21 yr. old. She began howling openly in the workplace with a full audience “That’s sick. You’re disgusting. MY DAUGHTER’S 21!!!…. You stay away from my daughter!!!!” and on and on and on….. Ten minutes. Honestly.

    She found out about my lifestyle choice — to date very young women and have nothing to do with women my age or older — and openly tried to shame me for it. Had she simply replaced everything she said about me dating a 21 yr. old woman with me dating a 21 yr. old GUY, she would have been fired on the spot for homophobia. She wasn’t fired on the spot for ridiculing my lifestyle choice, she was egged on and given positive feedback. I’m not stupid. I wasn’t surprised by the reaction from her or anyone else. Eastwind, you’ll get the same. I smiled my amused mastery and went back to work. Because I know what you know.

    What she’s really howling about, what was thrown in her face whether she’d admit to it or not: the men she’s searching for don’t want anything to do with her. Her ship has sailed.

    So Eastwind, who’s pill is more bitter? The young man who sees the trouble ahead and can make decisions to avoid it or the old woman who has to swallow that her time is past and there’s not a damn thing she can do about it?

  9. She found out a few days ago I’m currently seeing a 21 yr. old. A very cute 21 yr. old. She began howling openly in the workplace with a full audience “That’s sick. You’re disgusting. MY DAUGHTER’S 21!!!…. You stay away from my daughter!!!!” and on and on and on….. Ten minutes. Honestly. She found out about my lifestyle choice — to date very young women and have nothing to do with women my age or older — and openly tried to shame me for it.


    You need to read this immediately


    Depending on the severity of her outburst, if it were me, I would strongly consider reporting her to HR for verbal harassment and creating a “hostile workplace environment”. One thing I’ve learned is you fight the feminine with feminine tactics.

  10. If the norm becomes that every guy worth a damn fucks around until 45 and they don’t feel shame in doing so. It’s game over.

    Then what? What’s a man supposed to do when he’s 45+? Is he supposed to be a player forever scaled up? Is that healthy?

  11. I’ll chip in with my story:
    About a year ago, I started taking finasteride to fight hairloss. It helps, but one of the side effects it had on me was decreased libido – aka: I don’t want to fuck/fap as often as I used to and consequently women have lost much of their appeal in my eyes.

    Let me tell the Manosphere – if there ever is a true “red pill” for men, it would be this: a product that kills your sexual desire. Women would become just other people to you. you don’t hate them, you don’t love them, you feel nothing special towards them. Take away their sexual appeal, and they become quite boring to be around, and bothersome….

    I have never experienced such freedom in my entire life. I can very much empathize with Eastwind’s post. I’m just a bit beyond the scare phase and I wake up every day happy for no reason, my confidence has ascended, I talk to girls by default now without any need for their validation and I am thinking how great life would be when I’m the only person I have to please.
    Hell, this week I found myself just sitting in my house for an hour thinking: “damn, life is so fucking awsome!”. i’m not exaggerating this.

    Anyway, I can go on and on about this, but my suggestion to Eastwind would be to just live with these unresolved feelings for a while and see what happens. Stop looking for ways to remedy this fear and accept it.

    If you’re like me, you’ll just wake up one day with a smile on your face

  12. I always said if a unicorn crosses my path…I’d do the marriage thing.

    But it is scary yet exciting the freedom of creating your own plan is.

    I live a pretty happy life because the job I do is what I always wanted to do…so I never have the “what is the point” question when it comes to that.

    As far as women…now I’m just using them for my amusement. That’s really their only value anymore. It is just interesting getting into social situations and continuing to learn Game.

  13. I can see where EastWind is coming from, its great that he has this insight at such a young age. As has been said above, I feel he will decide to have children, I am thinking he has swallowed the pill and is thinking about the worst possible scenarios. Once the medicine hits he will calm his nerves and not see everything through such a harsh filter. I would make the correlation to a pre med student going through med school. They believe they have every malady they learn about. The good thing for him he is forewarned and forearmed.

    This post is really good timing for myself, I certainly am not as articulate about my redpill swallowing. But I can agree about the fear and giddiness. Its been hard to let go of the OneItis, but incredibly fun thinking about what the next 20 years brings me as I wander through this transition. I worry and am doubtful as Rollo mentions, about going my own way, there is no plan, but feel it might be what is called for. This gives me the courage to say I am on the right path.

    In conclusion, this redpill struggle really messes with your head.

  14. These are the Men that the feminine imperative is threatened by – a vanguard of men who are aware of their real value to women and society, and can make life impacting choices free from the influence of the imperative. I understand the ‘giddiness’ in that freedom, but I also understand the hostility that will be leveled at them by a feminized social mindset which can’t afford to have these Men making other men aware of their servitude by exemplifying red-pill awareness in their life choices.

    As mikec74 above also pointed out, this is why Giggles, her HUSsies, and their ilk will never- no, can never accept Rollo, Roissy, Dalrock and other Red Pill prescriptionists or their work.

    It is also why I say that there are no true red pill women. Even the ones who seem to ‘get it’ are still working from the female perspective, i.e., what is best overall for women. They are against feminism because they see that in the long run it is bad for women. They support a return to traditional values and patriarchy because they believe that in the long run it is better/safer for women. And so on. However, as Rollo and others have stated, this is not a bug, it is just how they are – as much a biological imperative as a feminine imperative. Realize it, accept it, understand it, and learn to deal with it in a way that is to your own greatest benefit.

  15. Any man who finds himself ‘free’ from women and marriage should ask himself what vlue that freedom actually has. Freedom has no value if it’s used serve only ourselves. That’s the road to nowhere; the abyss into which the OE is staring. It’s the same sense of futility men have sought to resolve for millennia; the very reason the sons of Adam found God all those eons ago.

    As expected, the bible has it covered:

    “I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord” (1 Cor 7:32-35)

    Readers of all stripes would do well to ask themselves what does it mean to serve the Lord. Angry ferrets aside, does anyone seriously not recognise the Red Pill wisdom here?

  16. A man elects to be happy or not. Sure things will come along and the proper response is sadness but for the most part, men should learn how to choose to be happy, then choose to be happy. That way when you learn bitter truths, which we do our whole lives, it doesn’t affect your positive mental state for long. Living well and being happy is often the best revenge a man will ever get.

    I cannot say it often enough, thanks be to the Almighty I am in an all masculine progression.

  17. “The system will fight Eastwind in every arena; psychological, familial, sociological, financial, political, every feminized aspect that can pull the crab back into the barrel will be used against him.”

    yup and dont forget “legal” — basically a male-beatdown machine generating constant and tremendous profits for women and sellouts

    as men increasingly are forced to become the Impoverished Gender, access to defense in the legal sistem goes bye bye. . . and dont the ticks love it too

    “He’s the first of a generation of Game aware men who were ‘raised’ in a post red pill internet culture”

    men were being awakened on the net long before Game or its merchants showed

    perhaps rossy and roosh serve a purpose, perhaps not, but they wont be enough to handle what’s coming

    unlike the film, coming out of the matrix is an agonizing and slow, not instantaneous or brief, and men MUST have an ultimate, glorious, and beneficial goal in mind — especially during the difficult psychological transitions, as one realizes that one’s friends, family, etc are NOT coming with you, and do not want you around


    the matriarchy is everywhere, and its extremely powerful, so neither screwing women nor giddiness nor freedom are goals sufficient to inspire the best men to shitcan it, fully and irreversibly, as necessary

    a good piece, youre a talented essayist

  18. One of the best blog posts I have seen this year. I am going to make a video about it now and put it on my channel.

    Here is my notice to young men. I recommend all young men in the english speaking world listen to this.

  19. Rollo this article resonates with me – I too “find it impossible that any guy could read these posts, then go back outside and compare what he sees and what he has experienced, and is experiencing currently, compare that to what he has read in these posts and not see the truth in it.”

    and thank you for spelling it out – your prose details the same conclusions, reactions and realizations I have come to over the past decade… and I have 25 years on you.

    The feminine imperative and feminism will be over the day men stop planning their lives around women… Suddenly the questions everybody is asking in real life, i.e. “how can I get married”, “how can I get a girlfriend?”, “am I good enough”, “will I measure up”, “how can I get laid”, “where can I work”, “how can I achieve success”, “how can I compete and win”, “what will I do / what will become of my family if I lose my job or my source of income?”…, all those false concerns – they lose all their importance. And it’s a relief my friends.

    Golden. Thanks for writing this.

  20. Great post. Seen more positively, it can be communicated to women you’re gaming who ask “Where are we?” or “Where is this leading?” with “Happiness is its own goal and reward…” if the goal is children, or family or whatever, none of those things offers any guarantees of anything.

    I started to see this early on and in retrospect got married because I felt I had to under societal and family pressures.

    Since my divorce far from drifting, I’ve become more focused on personal achievements and happiness.

    Since discovering game, I’ve become more self-aware.

    I make mistakes, I say or react emotionally when I shouldn’t but i think by establishing “alpha” cred with women showing anger, vulnerability, insecurity or whatever isn’t seen negatively, but actually MORE positively—if that doesn’t become your default character or persona.

  21. “But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband.”

    At least we can all agree that this doesn’t apply anymore.

  22. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to… suffering. — master Yoda.

    I am old by comparison, but having never married I only differ in resources gained with the commenter quoted in the post. The only fear I feel in gmow is what my action, summed with those of millions of other men, brings to the country and the future of civilization. It took many generations of men sacrificed over the whims of tyrants to get to where we are today. What happens tomorrow when the sons of those who built civilizations based on law and merit abandon all maintenance on their creations? The dissatisfaction of a small percentage of upper class women were as a stone that started an avalanche that removed an obscure pillar of our society, that of gratitude expressed to men for their freely sacrificed lives of utility. Now that thankfulness is so forgotten that young men are openly mocked for dying for those that live. Is this a test of civilization maturity? Did those that came before us also witness a destructive form of unbalancing of power? Is there no shame in watching that which our fathers created burn in the fires if hypergamy? Is it even possible to save what we have?

    I have no fear of planning for a life without marriage or significant women in my life. I fear pissing on the work of the men who came before me.

  23. @ Mikec74:

    I obviously gave that thought a bit of time. I just graduated from a ranked business school (career reboot) and had plenty of HR training regarding hostile environment. Of course that training was very much in a language teaching women how to notice when it happens to them and men how to avoid creating it.

    The reality is I only have eight weeks left on a contract gig that grossly overpays me for nothing while she’s vital to what they’re doing. She’s a nut bag, but she knows brand management. She’ll be in my rear view soon enough.

    Also, I’ve been around long enough to see people (men) get fired 2 weeks after they report “feeling harassed.” Management puts on the dog and pony show of reprimanding the important person and the first time the harassed sends out an email with a typo or shows up 5 minutes late, is fired for cause, when they were really fired for not fitting in. Well-versed in rules but well-versed in reality as well. I very much agree with the gist of your linked article but it’s a slippery slope. Have to pick the battles and that one amuses me more than it upsets me. However, if I a permanent employee, I would certainly have a talk with HR to see what the channels are. I wouldn’t necessarily pull the trigger, but I’d have a chat.

    Thank you for the link.

  24. @Mikec74

    Thanks for the reference to the HUS thread. Its very instructive to see the furious efforts that Susan and co were making to try and obscure and confuse the anti marriage arguments from Wavevector and Escoffier. Despite the claims that Susan doesnt want to push men into marriage against their intrests, I wonder if she consciously realises the extent of her bias towards the feminine imperative. Probably not, since she doesnt even admit the existence of such a thing

  25. I have to agree with feral who states theres nothing new under the sun. What Eastwind has recognised here, beyond the aspects that the Manosphere usually concerns themselves with, is that society always needs people to fill the role of the “worker bee” and most of us are pushed, with a concerted deliberite effort by society, to fill that role. This is basically just what we see here, but just with an additional twist of Feminism and some extra feminine imperative. Its the current modern flavor of the same old dish.

    Once you realise, the question then becomes what do you do about it? Well, basically whatever you want to – whatever you feel serves your own interests. And this can be hard to determine at first realisation, when you have lived you whole life to that point fulfilling the goals others have set out for you. Scary, as Eastwind said. All that freedom can leave you feeling unmoored and directionless.

    The disgust he feels at the way rhings are shows that more unplugging is needed though. Reality only disgusts him this much because he is still carrying a blue pill vision in his head of the way things SHOULD be, and the ugliness of the real can only compare poorly to this pretty picture.

  26. I had a similar experience to a guy above at work just recently, but it wasn’t about younger woman. it was about a woman in the workplace that i guessed correctly was an alpha widow, UMC princess type with an entitlement complex. To her credit she admitted that i was right, but she didn’t like when i told her that if she wants to live a lifestyle like the one she grew up with–she is 25 and still living at home–she may have to marry a rich nerd, She screwed up her face when i said that and i just laughed. This woman is a Manosphere cliched. She has been with men above her station then wonders why they won’t commit and treat her like shit. When i said i didn’t want to get married because i don’t want a drain on my income, the women in the office cracked at me. And they couldn’t believe that i laughed off their pathetic shaming attempts. The only reason i didn’t get in trouble is because my supervisor got ass raped in family court just recently so he just let me go without a warning.

    The beta pussies at my work disgust me.

  27. For real though, men that know their worth and understand the TRUE rules of the game, not the bullshit fake ones, are a huge threat to women and society in general. Women do operate as if they have a safety net. When i tried to explain to a 35 year old co-worker recently that men her age with money wanting to date younger women was totally fair, she went ballistic and said i was being shallow. But when i asked her why the man had to be rich, implying that was shallow too, she claimed that wanting a lifestyle isnt the same as wanting looks and that men should date women their age because they are worth it hahahhaahH. Like most women, she had no concept of the value of exchange when it d

  28. …doesn’t suit her, but i bet she lived by the iron law when she was in her prime.

    Women don’t mature; they just get old. and when they get old theu start to complain about how unfair the dating game is, despite the fact that they created and benefitted from the rules at a younger age.

    When women are too picky and miss their window of opportunity, i don’t feel in the least bit sorry for them: it’s poetic justice.

  29. Ton — I cannot say it often enough, thanks be to the Almighty I am in an all masculine progression.

    well said and keep saying it; the truth is shredding your enemies

    Almighty God is the one guiding our Great Escape, and without Him the present condition of boys and men would soon deteriorate to overt enslavement, with all “community” pretenses dropped

    our masculinity comes from Him, the aspects of Himself that he generously shares with us, helping to draw us back to Him

    …. the point of any real “movement” by men

    the greastest time to be a man in all history is right now — the whole world, and its assembled powers, are against you, and often hate you, cowardly servile men and grasping women in power everywhere, and worse rebels than that loose

    who needs world of warcraft or picking up chicks? right here is a REAL adventure, with REAL adversaries who dont want there to be masculinity, or boyhood, or families — and guess what, yolur enemies are in charge! lol

    what kind of guy wouldnt thrive on that impossible challenge, jump on an opportunity thatll never come again, not like this, at site zero

    they dont WANT you awake, dont WANT you restored to your Father, the only real home his lost children are ever gonna have, so thats worth a little sacrifice and a scrap

    like Ton, i also praise God that i was allowed a small part in furthering his plans for mankind

    may this planet be delivered from the enemies of God, destroyers of masculinity

  30. I discovered the PU scene when I was 17. But back then it was Ross Jeffries and then Mystery… so the ‘red pill’ thinking wasn’t very advanced. To a large extent I still lived under matrix rules, but living with some modifications and hacks.

    One thing that has become really clear to me is that men aren’t shown the option that they can spend 10 – 15 years working on their craft before settling down. No, the message is to become saddled with a career, debt and a family asap, no later than in the late 20’s.

  31. What goes around, comes around.

    Game is the anti-venom for hypergamy’s poison on society.

    Unleashed hypergamy created a legion of men who grew up without sufficient masculine guidance. More single-mother families (or functionally absent dads working their asses off to keep up), feminism taking men out of teaching, pervasive mass media thought indoctrination…

    Those of us who seek the truths we have missed are doggedly finding a way to piece it together ourselves, collectively. As we distill it down, it’s becoming apparent that we are assembling a motherfucking powerful tool for freeing minds.

    They are freaking out because we are slowly going to pull the rug out from under their cushy, coddled existences.

    Marionettes aren’t supposed to shrug off their strings.

    This is why they react so viscerally to every intelligent, capable guy who wakes up and says “fuck this” to being a sucker… whether it’s inside his relationships, or in his greater relationship with society.

  32. Knowing what you know at twenty-five makes it all the more likely you could find the kind of woman you’re looking for, if you really want to. Those women are rare and it honestly might take you five years to find one. Start conducting your nationwide search now. Remember, your potential future wife might only be fifteen right now. My ex-husband first entered my world as a friend of my family when I was eleven and he was twenty-two. Of course, nothing happened romantically between us until the summer before my twentieth birthday, but he knew me and my innocence.

    I think the biggest detriment to people finding true relationships is overlooking the important factor of time. Most people don’t have the patience for the long build up. Love is inspired by longing. It happens in the mind. The deepest relationships are the ones that have been fostered for years.

    In short, while depression is certainly understandable, I feel you’re ahead of the game and I wish you a hopeful, happy, and healthy future.

    As far as developing the kind of women men are looking for, there are a lot of places now that traditional women gather online, but “converting” young and single women is probably the area that needs improvement. It appears to be mostly preaching to the choir. That means going back into the cave. And its dark down there!

  33. Another victim of “too much red pill” by the sounds of it. I went through that stage at one point before coming out the other side, and realising that the entirety of society isn’t actually out to enslave me. It IS however a distinct possibility that that situation can be sleepwalked into however without having had your eyes opened to the realities of the world.

    The red pill is a great tool for educating men about the way the world really works and stripping away naivety. It can also create bitter, spiteful characters however.

  34. “the entirety of society isn’t actually out to enslave me.”

    not consciously, no.

    However, society is damn casual about taking whatever you’re willing to have taken. Hell, their courts will force men to pay support for children that aren’t their own, kick men out of university through the use of kangaroo courts, lock men up over false DV accusations, redefine DV to ridiculous degree (pointing out that they can’t afford to buy X is DV?)

    As more men take the red-pill, society may well get a bit more pro-active on the remaining blue-pillers. They are right to be worried about the red-pill thinning out the flock of suckers, but we should be worried that they’ll just keep doubling down. We will win as society goes bankrupt, but how bad will things get in the meantime?

  35. I had so hoped that Game was a potential social force. I fear now that it may not be.

    I believe the reality is that many women wish to be free from men. At least free in the sense that traditional marriage placed men into their lives. Its hard to say because I am pulled between prior social conditioning and prior experience that when I was younger, it was the women that seemed to press for marriage.

    Of all the things said in the Manosphere, it may be that the truest thing came from one its most comical and potentially ridiculous contributors, GBFM.

    Alpha fux and beta bux.

    And I think that feminism addresses that root desire of women, to remove the constraints that kept them legally bound to a beta and to allow them access to the alpha yet to gain the benefit of beta bucks.

    There was a writer on the Spearhead, the Futurist, that has long essay about “The Misandry Bubble”. It is a pretty long essay.


    He describes the effects on society of misandry and the push that woman have made in extorting resources, gains in government jobs, in universities, in non-profits, and in corporations.

    And he views all of this as somewhat of a tax paid on the system that is funded and supported by wage earning and productive capacities of men. The deficits have continued to grow, and issues are occurring in the economic system. And men can hasten that by “opting out”.

    He describes what he calls the Male Four Horsemen, “the forces that will ensure the demise of the present mistreatment of men are already on the horizon”

    1) The Venusian Arts (Game). No explanation necessary and is the theme of this post.

    2) Adult Entertainment Technologies of 2020 : “What of the 80% of men who cannot conceptualize the Venusian Arts? Won’t they be condemned to live a life of frustration, humiliation, and near-slavery as second class citizens? Thankfully, these poor souls will experience a satisfactory release through technology, just like women did through technologies such as contraceptive pills, washing machines, and vacuum cleaners.” Another disengagement strategy that causes men to “check out” of the “feminine imperative” and not play.

    3) Globalization : “The Third Horseman is a vast subject that contains many subtopics. The common theme is that market forces across the world eventually find a way around legislative fences constructed in any one country” His subtopics include

    a)Islam. He mentions British men using shariah courts. Seems impossible here but I am seeing aspects of it, a certain militant nature to some comments, certain sympathies among Western men with Islamic actions and ideas.

    b) Expatriation. This is my favorite theme. Leave. Go elsewhere. I got attacked on manboobz this week for both suggesting it and mentioning that a “matriarchy” exists. They all had big kick out that over there.

    c) Medical Tourism meaning men would actually go to 3 world nations and pay women to be donors and surrogates in order to have children. He also mentions people going overseas for major medical procedures reducing the revenue for the female dominated healthcare industry.

    I feel all three of these are somewhat week as potential bringers of the downfall of Western civilization and the Matriarchy driven misandry.

    4) Male Economic Disengagement and Resultant Tax-Base Erosion : “Earlier passages have highlighted how even the most stridently egomaniacal ‘feminist’ is heavily dependent on male endeavors. I will repeat again that there will never, ever be a successful human society where men have no incentive to aspire to the full maximum of their productive and entrepreneurial capabilities.”

    So this last one is the big one in conjunction with Game. Male disengagement as Eastwind describes, both in traditional institutions and with the economic system of the United States. “Turn on backs on those bitches and yeah, that’ll show those bitches won’t it.”

    And I fear you just lost that battle this week. The Senate will not only pass a bill on “immigration reform” but they are looking to “send a message” to the House of Representatives with 70 votes.

    This a group that could barely even order lunch with a majority agreement and now they are falling all over themselves to pass a bill that is as far reaching as immigration reform.

    And only the House of Representatives stands in the way of it. Perhaps the distributed electorates of the House will allow its members sufficient cover to vote it down.

    But I fear this is an issue of a declining demographic and wondering of where subsequent Republicans will come from in the future. The current party members are dying. And the future population growth is the growth of the Latino population in the United States. And the Latino vote, more than any other group, has cost them the presidency in the past two elections.

    So what this bill does is address many things, but declining birth rate and male “opting out” are the two key issues that we in the manosphere are concerned with. The United States has two key export sectors, Tech and Agriculture. Every thing else in this economy is a service between residents. It manufactures practically nothing that is not “tech based”. Everything else is just a store selling something manufactured somewhere else, or some glorified version of “selling each other pizzas”.

    So assume the future in a tech company, any tech company, from software to medical equipment:

    Female managers and immigrant tech workers.

    The thing that men did before in tech was what women could not, math, programming, research, systems. And now they are pulling in a cheaper version, non-residents on a visa tightrope.

    Some immigrants might wish to stay. Others are here to get “cred” and save cash before heading back to India or China or wherever. But either way, they are an exploitable work force in a way American men cannot be. They will be about 65% of the price of an equivalent American tech worker. And they dare not bitch. And if the economic numbers get crappy, ppof, they disappear and nobody cares. So the next “recession” will again be a “mancession” as the female managers show the “{immigrant men” to the door.

    Then on the flip side, the low wage, low skill side, there are 11 million Latino immigrants in this country that are going to have to stay on a 13 YEAR PATH, a 13 year path, to gain citizenship. A 13 YEAR path. So for 13 years they have to suck dick.

    They must register, the must undergo a criminal background check, they must pay a $2000 fine (probably in installments. (Which will pay for administration of this program, administered by American Latino women), they must learn English, ….

    and the biggie, the crusher for you and them, they must show “Proof of Employment”, meaning that they must show continuous employment, and that means they are entirely exploitable, will fearfully work their asses off for what ever money that they can get just to keep that “continuous employment”.

    I watched a movie last night in Spanish made in Mexico called “El Diablo”. It was about the Mexican cartels. After one narco had shot another person, a new guy asked him “Don’t you worry you will go to hell” and the shooter replied “We are already living in hell, that we cannot find a way to feed ourselves and our children in a normal way”. So that is the fear that will nag them at night, will drive them to accept whatever is thrown at them, because they have no alternative.

    And they will be able, once registered, once in the program, to move out of those sectors they had been forced to stay, construction, day labor, landscaping, cash work, agriculture and compete in other sectors, fast food, grocery store stocking, especially once they learn some language skills. But many will continue to work in the crap sectors that they did before, particularly agriculture.

    So they key export sectors, tech and agriculture are fucking covered. And trust me. I have seen both those worlds, tech and Latino immigration and it sucks for them also. They are lonely and isolated, they suffer the same things as omegas, and worse. They live jammed into crappy apartments, alone, no women.

    I had to use a laundromat for a period in Atlanta. Guess who was there alone washing clothes. Indian and Latino men. I once went to a Mexican bar in Atlanta. There was a fight on, Pacquiao vs some Mexican Boxer early in Manny’s career. The place was jammed with Mexican men, illegals mostly. There were no women.

    But then after the 11th round, it was like a bus had stopped outside and this line of Latina women filed into place and headed over near this low stage and sat down on it. I asked “Que es este?” What is this. The guys said “You pay them 5 dollars to dance for one song.” I said “And do they fuck you” and the guys “No, they usually have a man that comes to get them”. So all night long these women were busy and went home with a purse full of 5 dollar bills. And that is as close to a woman as most of those guys were going to get. And after that I started looking. Young Latino men, always with no women.

    And the same goes for the Indians. They just get paid more. And they are generally disliked more by American women. And they know not to ever talk back at work. And most of them get to go back to India with cash and a big resume to get a better job in Bangalore than they had when they came over. So for them, it is purgatory and not permanent. So they bide their time.

    But for those Mexicans, this is it. Maybe at some point they can bring a woman from Mexico over.

    So when you think you wish to “tune in, turn on, and dropout”, the matriarchy thinks, “Yeah well fuck you. Go ahead. We got Badal from Bangalore and Niguel from Nogales.” And American men will never have the political coalition to stop them.

    Wait until Boomers start retiring, they are already are, every day 10,000 of them turn 65, and they need that pyramid underneath to pay that Social Security and Medicare money, and all that political support goes for immigration.

    Time Warner Cable lost 183,000 cable subscribers, their projected new number of high speed data subscribers fell short by 1/3, their overall revenue dropped and yet they posted a 4% increase on net income by squeezing the employees. And their president got a 17 million salary this year. So the monied class, will cheer for any use of any mechanism to cut costs, and foreign IT, immigrant installers, by cable, and multiple other industries. So expect those that have assets and those that are working in places untouched by immigrants to not have an issue with it. And expect women to be all for it. Because the matriarchy is the number 1 beneficiary of it.

    The women get what they want from men, slaves that have a “legal” pistol to their heads, that keep those heads down, that never act up, two groups of immigrant men that know better than to step out of that box and actually try to be men.

    So I don’t know what to tell any of you. I am starting to have my doubts that Game and opting out with have the massive effect we hope.

    But I would say this. Pity the poor married fool. He gets squeezed with massive pressure. And when he falters, stumbles, through now fault of his own, they he gets raped and thrown out, worse than he ever was if had never married.

    So that is why for me Game has always been “defensive”. When players write about conquests, style, strategy, I have usually written about some shit like “It’s the dopamine, stupid”. try to feed the defensive side of Game, that you steal the bait, and escape the trap, that understand the psychological and biological forces working against you.

    So all I really say is hang on, and let us stay at this for a while. I am sure Luther didn’t think he was changing an epoch when he nailed his thesis to the cathedral door.

    But I do think, conversion is key. Our numbers must grow.

    And we must act collectively. This will never work if it some coalition of angry white men. It must be a coalition angry MEN, of angry Indian men, angry Mexican men, angry Black men, angry South American men, angry European men, and it cannot sit within these borders.

    Feminism started here and if the men of the world see us stand the fuck up against it here, then they will know to fight it where they are and not to accept it as some stage in the development of a country, that they not feel it is right and just to stand by as it takes over because that what the Americans did.

    And as some other American revolutionary said

    “We hang together or we hang separately”

  36. @yousowould

    I went through that stage at one point before coming out the other side, and realising that the entirety of society isn’t actually out to enslave me.

    No, the entirety of society isnt out to enslave people. Just the bits of society with actual power and influence. Theres “good” selfless people out there, but they are generally not the ones pushing the agenda, or setting the rules that ultimately effect us.

    How much of mainstream society today is giving its young people, specifically men, helpful and realistic life path advice that doesnt primarily benefit someone else? It seems to me like the entire approved life path for men is designed to have them working hard for other people, and thats close enough to the definition of slavery for me.

    Recognition of this doesnt necessitate that you become bitter or spiteful though, or that you hate everyone around you. Just because “society” might be trying Hell for leather to push you into enslavement doesnt mean that every person in that society is out to get you. It just means that you need to be willing to think for yourself and set your own path, you need to be courageous in not being deterred from that path as well as smart enough to dodge the traps along the way and you need to take every bit of advice with a grain of salt.

  37. Part of why EastWind feel so bad is because he thinks women are now his enemies.

    Please, first of all, keep in mind at ALL times that “women” doesn’t mean anything. Some women are kind, some are bitchy, some like the manosphere, some are feminists. Talking about women as a whole is a very bad idea.

    You can talk about the Feminine Imperative as a concept, with a clear definition. You can say that it is present in every women. But it is only present TO SOME EXTENT. Some women embrace their FI, and some fight it. Some women are better than others, it’s a plain undeniable fact. We have examples of good girls in the manosphere.

    Those girls are not your enemy. Those girls will listen, obey, and love. Those girls will make you happy and fulfilled. And those girls do exist. Go and find them.

    Secondly, you should be PROUD to be a provider. It means you produce, you are useful, and your efforts allow you to take care of others. Taking care of others is good. Simply choose carefully WHO you are taking care of.

    You purpose in life isn’t to be some random hedonist fucker sucking the life out of people around you. Go build stuff. Get people together behind ideas, projects. Teach guys what you know, help them be better men. Their success will be your success. And you will be fulfilled. Most people mistake happiness for fulfilment. Happiness is a smile. It’s surely is a good feeling, but it never lasts very long. Fulfilment is a feeling of intense calm within you, 1000 times more powerful than happiness. And you might be closer to fulfilment than you think.

  38. @Mark Minter

    Fantastic comment. I liked your thoughts about economics and immigrant men being used to replace men that won’t work in those conditions.

    I just disagree with the wrap-up. Men don’t feel a connection with each other based on their gender. I’ve read a lot of history. Groups of men fight each other for power. That’s it.

    There will never be a successful men’s rights movement. It would break the machine.

    Your only option is form or join a gang a la Jack Donovan’s The Way of Men. If you succeed and carve out an economic niche, you become a business group or a law firm or a farming conglomerate. And then, for you, the machine is important because it keeps every other man in his place and stops him taking what you have.

    The current system is bad for most men. But any system that any group of men puts into place will be bad for most men. The system will be designed to protect the rulers and their children, at the expense of everyone else.

    Them’s the rules.

    You can drop out and not play in a rigged game. That’s understandable.

    Or, like me, you can decide to play the game for a chance at winning. To really win, you need to be prepared to take a lot from other men (their time, their money, etc), the same way a CEO skims a lot of economic value from his workers.

    There is no system that benefits everyone. There is no solution to our economic and social crisis that will magically be better for every man. There are just groups of men fighting tooth and nail for power and wealth, same as there always have been.

    Find or build your group and fight. Or drop out, do what you love, and enjoy your life.

  39. An addendum:

    That said, not every man is your enemy. There’s a lot to be gained from cooperation and trust and working together on projects. But without a core group, you cannot build real success.

  40. one point is a bit off…an alpha cant trust his mother only sisters, grandparents and aunts.

    both mother (while growing up) and mate, as a evo reaction to an alphas natural boundary testing and risk profile, must retain the ability to detach and move forward.

    a lesson i reinforce w my 6 year old constantly

  41. The major flaw in the post is claiming that ALL women are like this. Yes, MOST women love a confident guy.

    But, not all women are looking to suck a man’s wallet dry. Just as many MEN financially rape women. Many women OUTEARN their men.

    This is the main flaw in the manosphere. Utter obliviousness to realities outside of the 1-sided “PUA agenda”.

  42. My woman owns her own house, and picks up the tab more often than I do. She also makes the same salary as I do.

    I know many guys who are women who make more money. I have friends who have married big earning women and they live a much wealthier lifestyle because of their wife’s higher earnings power. These are screw ups who are now living in the most elite school districts for their kids. All because they married a wealthy woman. Some of these guys barely even work.

  43. Idiot, I’m not a woman. Just a sane logical objective male who can enjoy both sport fucking or being in a stable relationship. This blog post is a great example of the unintended consequences of PUA game. The kids almost been brainwashed taken in too far. EVERY woman is not a parasite. Lots of women don’t need a fucking man. Yea, damn straight NAWALT. It bears repeating in echo chambers like manosphere blogs.

    And no one said I was refuting conventional wisdom. The OP did with his delusional rantings.

    “I’m 25, I’m eligible, and every woman my age, even the nice, kind, beautiful, sweet, intelligent ones, who gives me serious attention creeps me out because I know what she’s really after.”

    Wrong. Most are just looking for a good time with the AMOG.

  44. @bob

    Those girls are not your enemy. Those girls will listen, obey, and love. Those girls will make you happy and fulfilled. And those girls do exist. Go and find them.

    So NAWALT basically? Thats nice. Where are these good women though? How do you tell them apart from the bad women? How to determine that they arent playing a part, and wont change their minds once youre invested? Rhetorical questions, you dont need to answer. Its been my experience to see even some of the “good” ones get fat, chop their hair short and lose all interest in sex after they got what they want (marriage and children). I know, I know, life is full of risks, right? You could get struck by lightning the next time you leave your house, etc.

    I actually do agree with the NAWALT principle. In theory at least. Its technically true. In practice though, the only people who seem to mention it appear to be using it as a wedge to make make men who are (rightly) extremely cautious about the prospect of marriage doubt themselves. This is not the place for rose colored glasses.

    Secondly, you should be PROUD to be a provider. It means you produce, you are useful, and your efforts allow you to take care of others. Taking care of others is good. Simply choose carefully WHO you are taking care of.

    You should be proud of being a provider? Why? I dont doubt that it means you are useful to society or that you produce, but is this a valued role in society? Does it earn you respect? Admiration? It certainly used to…. but not so much any more. Now, the older generation, and plus 30 women expects it of you, and will shame you if you dont do it, or dont do it well enough. The under 25 women will think it makes you boring, and will choose the more interesting non provider types to reward with sex. And as much as youd like to carefully choose who to provide for, you dont even get to do that any more, because through taxes you are compelled to support a proportion of societies parasite class, and through child support and alimony, you are forced to provide for family members who decide they are better off without you – but still want your money.

    No, it doesnt really sound like being a provider is something to be proud of any more. Theres certainly no pride in being taken for a sucker.

    But hey, who am I to tell you how to feel? After all, society could certainly use more people like you….

  45. Leftbelt: More men get screwed over financially in court than women. Women don’t tend to marry men that make less tham them. Are there exceptions? Sure, but in the grand scheme of things they are statistically insignificant.

  46. Secondly, you should be PROUD to be a provider. It means you produce, you are useful, and your efforts allow you to take care of others. Taking care of others is good. Simply choose carefully WHO you are taking care of.

    Nowadays I immediately get suspicious when people tell me I should be proud of something. Specifically, the fact that you used the word “useful” because all of a sudden the discussion is about someone’s standards of “usefulness”. Something’s “useful” if it serves MY purpose, starting with food and shelter and ending with, possibly, entertainment.

    You can of course argue that something that is useful to society might be useful to myself, and of course there are many things for which this is true. But most actions and things which are considered “useful” are so mainly to someone who isn’tme.

  47. Being a provider is for suckers, unless you feel good about doing it. Lots of men are resentful at being stuck with the provider burden. And, so are many wives, when it’s forced upon them due to layoffs, etc.

  48. Rollo ,.. I caught this while going through SS.I was feeling depressed enough that it did get me to tears … my concluding thought that as lonely and worst case scenario…. to me I have no other choice my freedom I hold dear.Thank you for the reassuring post .Before you posted about the.myths .. I thought I would be the old man in Tuscany.It was a very painful thought.If I do live that long , I can,t have it any other way … thanx for being like an older brother who imparts the wisdom.

  49. @mikec74

    “If one wants to see this exact dynamic in play, go check out the HUS thread The Lofty Aspirations of Millennial Women…”

    Did a bunch of posts just get deleted from that article? IIRC, it had over 1700 posts. I could be wrong.

  50. “NAWALT (Not All Women Are Like That)”.

    To which I respond “BAAA (But Almost All Are)”.

  51. “The primary weapon of the feminine imperative is male self-doubt. Doubt that he’ll be able to craft a life by his plan, doubt that he’s wrong about the machinations of the imperative, doubt in the certainty of his new awareness, doubt that he’ll ever experience love in his own context. Because once he doubts his certainty of purpose, once he doubts his power to direct his own course, that is when the imperative welcomes him to its comfortable reality.”

    And how will the feminine imperative manifest that doubt? One need look no further than the HUS thread Mike C and BC noted. The women ask:

    –Is it really true that men get taken to the cleaners in an “I’m not haaaaappy” divorce?

    –the statistics say men make out better in divorce in standards of living. So divorce can’t really be that bad for men, can it?

    –Is it really true that there is an epidemic of frivolous divorce? Statistics or STFU (deti’s note: But something tells me that debate has already been had, and SW lost that debate soundly.)

    –you gotta learn Game so you can get a girl to love you and marry you. Otherwise, you’ll die old and alone and NO. ONE. WILL. EVER. LOVE. YOU.

    –Game is not for men to get sex. It’s for men to become great fun dates and good boyfriends and useful productive husbands. Game is for all of us, not just for men.

    –It’s getting harder and harder for men to get to college and get employment. You can’t do it on your own. You need a good woman.

    –Married men shouldn’t be talking about the risks and encouraging men not to marry; they should be telling men to take appropriate risks.

    — you have duties to society. You can’t just do whatever you want.

  52. @deti,
    Been seeing a lot of this along the lines of “Is it really true that men get taken to the cleaners in an “I’m not haaaaappy” divorce?…
    –the statistics say men make out better in divorce in standards of living. So divorce can’t really be that bad for men, can it?”

    I am a numbers guy, but a numbers guy who gets the qualitative and gets the art along with the science. What you have in this is a case of numbers masquerading the raw true.

    The raw truth is what is bleeding here. Bleeding in the article, bleeding in EastWind’s missive, bleeding in the comments, bleeding in everyone coming to this and coming around to the red pill realization of “raw deal”.

    And I know you are already on board with that, you’re basically noting and asking rhetorically, but since we have this attempt at re-framing, it’s something I think should be pointed out.

    The idea that women come out worse in divorce is a statistical mirage. The man is socialized to maximize income and maximize savings, so that is what he does. One of the top reasons listed for divorce is money, and principle in that is that spending could not or would not be controlled.

    On another site once there was a commentator who was critical of men, I think he called them pussies, who let their wives buy houses and cars they couldn’t afford. So – taking, that … allowing for his criticism, very likely it is at the point where the fellow acted with spine and said “no more” that “money problems” become a deal breaker in the divorce.

    After the divorce since the fellow has 5-20 years primed of maximizing income and she, likely, doesn’t, it is no surprise he will earn more than her.

    Complicating the matter are many things:

    1) Too many men allow for outcomes of unequal custody – they freely volunteer it, they don’t so much as put up a fight
    2) Even where equal custody is the law, there are a number of EXTREMELY nasty legal tricks that lawyers put women up to in order to secure superior custody rights
    3) There is a social perception that “fair” is equal distribution of income after the divorce
    4) The willingness of so many men to accept outcomes of unequal custody fuels the social perception that men aren’t into this

    To expand on these (so help me God guys – if you haven’t had kids listen to me and take this to heart):

    1) Allowing unequal custody – I do not know why background you have, you may never have imagined yourself a single parent, your spouse may have been first and kids second, or as has been said on Dalrock: VERY legitimately, you may have wanted kids, but as a family, you did not want to have kids in a divorced-couple “co-parenting” scenario … or (God help me) you just have it in your head that for whatever reason raising the kids is her deal, not yours

    >>>If any of the above STOP. In 2013, if you have not had kids, you have no business having children. Maybe in 1963, not in 2013. Get a vasectomy now.

    Otherwise – if for any reason you choose not to glove it, accept this and fight for it like your life depends on it:

    >>>Damnit – they are YOUR children. It doesn’t matter what you thought or felt or hoped for before, this is now and they are your children. If you find yourself divorcing, from moment zero it must be clear to every person involved – and this will be a LOT of strangers – that you will accept inferior custody rights over your dead body. There must be no swaying.

    13 billion years preceded you. Another 100 billion may come after. You may believe in God or spaghetti monsters or faeries or you may be an atheist.

    This is the ONLY thing you get to get right, or wrong. Don’t let her take your children.

    If this is not your attitude about having them – your attitude is one that will get you wiped clean in 2013, and your guts will be used to grease the way for the next 100 men to be wiped too.

    2) Nasty tricks. There are several. Here are a few. Be prepared for them.

    a) Under NO circumstances do you leave the house for a separation. You stay in the house and the children stay with you. A decision to leave the house during separation is a decision to have the court find any excuse it can to give her superior custody rights even if you are an equal custody rights state.

    b) If you accept a “nesting” arrangement separation where you take equal turns in the home with the kids while the other leaves – get your neighbors to be witnesses – seriously your life depends on this – her attorney will not hesitate to have her LIE to the court, file while you are out of the home, and claim that you left the home – and she will do this while being all love, understanding and sweetness to you so you will not see it coming … so be absolutely sure that YOU file for divorce first, placing the factual details of your nesting arrangement into your divorce affidavit.

    c) At all times be calm. Repeat your commitment to parenting and over and over your love and dedication to your children, NOT your issues with her, but nevertheless adamant, if subtly so, that an outcome of unequal custody will not be accepted, unless it is unequal in YOUR favor

    3) Social perception of fairness of equal distribution of income … this is basically bullshit that people repeat so often they really believe it is true.

    Consider: in the marriage you cumulatively earn $500K to $1 mil before you divorce. She spends it all and adds another $50K-$300K in debt.

    You have optimized for income. She has not. Because of aforementioned issues that you are likely unprepared for, you end up in a situation where she has “primary physical custody” or, if you were either unlucky or stupid, “sole legal custody”.

    On account of this – after you have lost $800K-$1.3 million in cumulative lose from the divorce and her debt … the court will order that you pay the debt, AND pay onerous child support which could equal a third of your income and is not tax deductible.

    So – let’s just say that we were Susan Walsh and HUS and her HUSsies and we wanted to FRAME this discussion.

    The frame will be:

    * They divorced (economic facts leading to it are blocked from the frame)

    * She is taking on the brunt of the parenting after the divorce (how the system is fixed to cause this to happen, or how you were burned, that too is blocked from the frame)

    * You earn 3X as much as her – that this is for very good and just reason, that 1/3 of your income is taken and transferred to her at the point of a gun, before taxes mind you, that too is blocked from the frame

    So, in the HUSsy frame:

    She got the parenting, you got 3X the income. You are doing SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better. Stop, stop you evil man from telling men they shouldn’t accept their social responsibility and marry up these women! Evil, evil baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad Rollo.

  53. Oh – folks, just so you understand “a third of your income and is not tax deductible” … let me break this down:

    For sake of example, since we are using 3rds, let’s pick $90K, since that is divisible easily by 3.

    You make $90K. She makes $20K.

    Your 1/3 child support is taken pre-tax, that means that you actually net, pre-tax, $60K.

    HOWEVER, since it is child support, you cannot deduct it. So you are taxed at the $90K rate(!), on your $60K (!) of income.

    Oh but it gets better. When you were married, you filed jointly, you deducted yourself, her and all your kids.

    In divorce, obviously you aren’t deducting her, but if she received custody, you can’t deduct your children either.

    So – you are now taxed as a single person, earning $90K, but you only receive $60K.

    But it STILL gets better.

    Child support is not taxed. It is taken pre-tax, and given post-tax. So she DOES NOT report the $30K gets from you. Seriously.

    The IRS will put you in prison for failing to report earnings on BITCOINS, but it will give her child support back if she accidentally reports it.

    So, remember: she earned $20K.

    How many kids does she have custody of? 1, 2 or 3?

    She’s getting and earned income tax credit for her $20K and 3 kids – when she files taxes, she will get money BACK from the state. Plus your $30K of child support.

    Who is doing better folks?

    And this is why I said earlier … if your attitude is one that accepts that for any reason at all you should not have equal or superior custody rights to your children in divorce, then you have an attitude intended for 1963, but for which there is a system that you can validate exists in the real world without taking my word for it, that is designed to punish and utterly destroy you in 2013.

    The only attitude for men who want to have children in 2013 is: they are my children, and you will take them from me over my dead body.

  54. Rollo… Making your own way is scary at first, but like with puberty, once you get through it it becomes exhilarating. There is good women out there with whom you can make your way. Ones who have read the manosphere, or understand the basics. Doesn’t have to be that way thou’.
    Funny, cause from my perspective I see men and think… will they still be interesting and will I want to sleep beside them in 10/20/50 years? I’m infertile, so kids were never something I thought of as priority. Money’s never been an issue as well, cause I did put a lot of effort in my career. A man who knows his game will be more attractive and able to elicit more desire from me, but there’s also the pull-side I’d need. The ability to actually connect with me.

  55. By this standard it seems Christianity, and not just modern Christianity or Churchianity as VD puts it, is inherently blue pill because it calls for men to sacrifice themselves for others, especially their wives. I’m kind of strung up between the two because I see the truth in the red pill narrative, but I also believe in Jesus.

  56. Good overall advice on the divorce stuff Case.

    If you are looking at a divorce try to separate finances as much as possible. I know this is easier said than done with these “wives” but the more you can and the earlier the better. I was beta as hell with my ex, but her financial situation and credit score were so fucked going into the relationship that I put my foot down and had a “this is my money, and that is your money” policy from day one.

    Going through this divorce now I’m constantly relieved not to be one of those guys who had everything in their name and the woman controlling all bills and purchases. If all her department store cards and car loan and the deed/mortgage to the house were joint or in her name it would have been much more of a nightmare for me. As it stands I’m just dealing with a custody battle (and yes, fight for it every step of the way, kids are the biggest place to screw you.)

    Women will max out all the cards and drain your joint checking account once she knows she’s moving out. There’s websites out there with other shrews telling her to do just that. If you force the issue and never have a joint account and keep control of your own paycheck you will never have to face that situation.

  57. @Dan
    Not a christian here myself but we all have a past and kaybe still I can help. For one: what surprises me but both Dalrock and SSM’s blogs make clear from their popularity is a whooi oooole lot of regulars harbor Christian backgrounds.

    But my word is this. Go to your nearest law library. Ask the librarian where the family law section is. Walk their and gaze on the shelves. Be silent. Breath. Meditate on it a bit. Pull down a volume if it suits you. Page through it. Go home and sleep.
    Marriage is not Pauline marriage. It is not Talmudic marriage. It is not canon marriage.
    Those are not options for you. Understand that and give unto Caesar what is his.

  58. Dan, its been pretty well documented in the ‘sphere all the ways in which churches are beta control factories. Not to insult you per se, but yes, they preach stuff that’s pretty opposite of what the red pill expects.

  59. @leftbelt

    you are the perfect example of “the peter principle”

    you have risen, probably naturally, to the limit of your competence but without any real understanding of the expert system you navigate. ergo, your usefulness is limited by…..you. your inability to think in complex systems and multiple variable input/outputs relegates you to alpha status only.

    you can do it, but don’t understand why.

    you have nothing to teach here so…chew on a barrel.

    1. No, it’s just that I don’t think in absolutes like the miserable OP who can’t even interact with women anymore, in a healthy manner. Yes, eat the red pill and all that crap. But, don’t shut down entire aspects of life, and become a militant MGTOW extremist.

      I have a great life, I don’t act like a beta sucker LJBF AFC, but it actually includes women. A lot of these extreme “red pill” types can’t possibly be fun people to be around, and I guarantee they they don’t even get laid, despite all the time obsessing over PUA blogs.

  60. And yes, I see the “system” very clearly, and have unplugged from the Matrix more than you’ll know. However, to think ALL women are out to bleed some sucker dry is moronic. Women have their own money, and many women refuse to get married, and some refuse to have kids. (OR even a dog). Try meeting them sometime. They’re out there, if you don’t come across as a bitter psychopath.

  61. i read you as a huge extrovert, and mainstream redpill is primarily introverts (otherwise nothing would have ever gotten sussed out and documented).

    I don’t think you can relate, or maybe even understand the depth at which you cannot relate.

    being polarizing is good. for someone to luv ya, somebody has to hate ya

  62. Thanks. It could be worse. No one cares to hear all my details but the ex was textbook BPD, I was textbook AFC, but I had enough sense to see the writing on the wall early. Learn the laws of your state and protect yourself as best you can is the advice I would offer others.

    Honestly, considering my state is seen as a very liberal tax happy nanny regime, the laws here are reasonably favorable for me. But that’s largely because I knew my rights and protected myself, somewhat by accident as I mentioned but also by design. Alimony for one thing is very frowned upon by our courts and only awarded in extreme cases and then only as a strictly temporary measure. Other places are probably not so friendly to men.

  63. Getting involved with women is fine. Few here are suggesting that men avoid women entirely. However, getting married or moving in with them is a huge risk for men that live in the Anglosphere. Yes some women get screwed in divorce now too, but traditionally it has been the man, and the laws probably won’t change until more women suffer the consequences of being in the financially superior position.

    Regarding NAWALT, it is true,but the problem is with the culture, not the women. The Angl phere breeds defective women with an inflated sense of entitlement. Unloss you are a great looking man or you have tight game, the cost of dating an average 6 is great compared to what you actually get in return.

    Im not a hardcore.MGTOw

    1. “Unless you are a great looking man or you have tight game, the cost of dating an average 6 is great compared to what you actually get in return.”

      1) Make her pay at least 1/2 the time
      2) Don’t get married to her.
      3) Date other women at the same time.

      Cost is basically nothing.

  64. Unloss you are a great looking man or you have tight game, the cost of dating an average 6 is great compared to what you actually get in return.

    Yes, this, especially in western(ized) society. In most cases the total benefit simply does not justify the total cost. The only reason it appears so is that the benefits are overstated up front, while the real costs are hidden, downplayed, and either denied or falsely recast as… benefits. And by costs I do not mean only those marriages/families that blow up

    As for NAWALT, yes, yes, of course NAWALT.

    However, remember that women tend to be emotionally-oriented, and that one should mentally add “Right now I feel like” in front of anything they say.

    “(Right now I feel like) I will always love you.”
    “(Right now I feel like) I would never do that to you.”
    “(Right now I feel like) IANLT.”

    So yes, NAWALT, but at any given point in time MWALT, and given the right conditions, AWALT or at least HTPTBLT.

  65. Just wanted to relay a story that happened last week that shows just how fed up men are.

    A Turkish bus driver in Melbourne asked a female passenger (UMC white mid 30s office worker) to swipe her transit card, she told him to fuck off and that he had no right to speak to women. The driver ignored her and continued to drive on his route.

    When she got to her seat a fellow passenger told her not to behave like that as the man was from another culture, this infuriated the woman and she prompty got up and scratched the driver (while he was driving), drawing blood.

    The driver reacted by beating the living daylight out of her, knocking her out and throwing her off the bus.

    The reaction of the passengers? Ten male passengers offered the driver to be his witness.

  66. Ha, this is a variant of my situation, modified by my advanced age (57) and experience.

    I’m getting out of a 32 year marriage because wifey found her Alpha boyfriend from 34 years ago and was unhaaapppy. OK, fine.

    I’ve got money, long term financial security, job prospects, and time. Freedom. I’ve got about ten women on a string. Admitted, they are not 9s, but 4s to 7s from age 28 to 56 within a broad ethnic spectrum, as I am traveling.

    I like these women. I don’t tell them lies about commitment, although I have said things that I meant at the time and now doubt. I sometimes feel bad about what I might be doing to them, but I strive to leave them with good memories anyways, some kind of bittersweet longing. A couple want to have babies with me.

    Maybe I should dial it back a notch, but I’m running away from Death, aren’t I?

    1. Did you have game when you got married at a later age? 57 – 32 = 35. If so, you should be able to juggle these women with little committment and enjoy a little harem after decades of celibacy. Enjoy, man! And, be up front about fucking multiple women, they will respect your honesty. You’re in a good place, so enjoy the pussy carousel for a few years. No kids! Do not marry!

  67. leftbelt’s a girl. Opens a post with a pejorative. Claims NAWALT. Strings buzzwords together without logical concatenation,

    > Try meeting them sometime. They’re out there, if you don’t come across as a bitter psychopath.
    … and as usual, the shaming…

    More mayo on the next one, hun.

  68. Mark Minter: “I had so hoped that Game was a potential social force. I fear now that it may not be. I believe the reality is that many women wish to be free from men.”

    They wish to be free only after taking some sort of resource from those men, be it their money, “white knight” helpfulness, ego-boosting, or even sperm.

    What game and Red Pill thinking does is makes men hip to this game. While it might not be the solution, even a little of it does along way to pulling the rug out from female entitlement. “Man up” coming from women means “what can you do for me?” If even a few men learn to reverse that question, there will be a sea change. If a small group of scary-looking feminists could change society as dramatically as they did, then thousands of guys with different attitudes can change it as well.

  69. Rob, just because a guy is telling you that NAWALT, and that lots of dudes increase their standard of living because of their wife’s huge salary, you have to assume I am some trolling bitch? Think about how brainwashed you are. I can assure you, bro, I am not a chick.

    In your world, all women are the same. Your logic is weak. I never said to get married, or have kids, or anything. I said there are lots of women who are hot and carry their own weight, and don’t even need your MGTOW tantrums. Like the OP, your loss, dude, when you’re too BLIND to see the full spectrum of REALITY.

    I had a woman come over and bring me dinner last night. She paid. We fucked. She made me breakfast this morning. Now, she is leaving to work on a weekend, while I will play on Youtube for a few hours. Now, does that mean all women are great? No, you moron.

  70. 57 – 32 = 35


    if we didn’t have definitive proof before that you’re a girl, we do now.

  71. I hope refusing to get run over by the male imperative is not the same as being an agent of the female imperative.

  72. @Immediate, re: BPD – if its legal where you live start audio recording everything in her company – seriously everything. The trick with making audios work is quickly developing a cataloging system so you know what content is stored in which file. Expect her to do every evil thing. No kidding I just facepalmed b/c I can’t believe this stuff is so real but I lived it … she will not hesitate to accuse you of anything and she will go to unbelievable lengths with the accusations. Don’t back down against anything, but also be calm and don’t shout back or strike back. BPD is the worst. It’s especially horrible because they go through phases where they act normal and you figure they learned their lesson or tired of it. They never do, they live in Wonderland and crazy storm ala things that would get you put in prison a very long time if people believe her – that is always a bad hair day away.

    re: leftbelt and the rest … I’m not really understanding this conversation. Is this a MGTOW site where we have to defend our renunciation of women ways? Are we a bunch of AWALT MGTOW runaways?

    I don’t really understand leftbelt’s original shot-across-the-bow for one thing … like are there are bunch of lady-hating-ner-do-wells here who can’t handle the ladies so they complain here then sulk in their basements? The remark seems fit for Stardusk’s channel, not RM.

    So reckoning that well: “no – aren’t MGTOW here sir, keep lookin'” … what I take us to be doing is communally understanding the real rules of the Monopoly game, so I’m not sure what there is to argue about with leftbelt. Troll. Ignore him (her?).

  73. Oh – Immediate, there is a silver lining.

    Once she discovers just what a bitch-slap you get back from the law that she’s trying to use to rape you, the first time you pull out an audio file on her, and once she looses credibility with the authorities … the behavior does improve and semblances of a reasonable person take over.

    Problem is: that probably won’t happen until she has first made a trip to the ER faking her injuries or accusing you of causing injuries to the children that she herself caused, and probably not before you must deal with the police and child protective services on account of it.

    Advise there: calm. Not accusing her. A head in hand gesture is hugely powerful. Then total politeness and cooperation with the authorities.

    When the time comes and they see the difference between how you interact with the kids (like a calm, normal person) and she (barely concealed BPD bullshit), the tide turns.

  74. Actually we’ve been split up over a year now. This thing is all but over. But its good advice, hopefully there’s guys reading who can use it.

    I’ve had the false DV accusation before. Had the cops called on me. She hit and scratched her own head, neck and face and said she was going to tell the cops I did it and have me taken to jail. Cops show up, one stays inside to talk to her and other outside with me. I tell him the truth, and he’s standing there looking at me like “yeah right, you piece of human garbage” and I figure I’m toast. They confer with each other then go talk to her as a team and leave me outside. She says she didn’t tell them how the marks were faked, but that she begged them to not do anything, isolated incident, both angry, she doesn’t think I’d repeat and said she’d just invoke “spousal privilege” in court and get it thrown out. You can do that here if its the first offense. Amazingly they let me off the hook, maybe she did admit the truth but didn’t tell me.

    And yes, other people start to see the differences with your personalities, not just courts. Once you get away from her it starts to show and others will notice who is really the crazy one. Unfortunately, she’s got a ton of acquaintances, she’s charismatic, energetic, engaging, fun, people are really drawn to her. So most people don’t really ever get to know her fully and those who do are generally other women who are as screwed up as her. Very few people know both of us well enough to truly sympathize with me.

    Anyway, I’m going to be ok. I wish I could have the time back that I wasted but looking back with bitter regret isn’t going to do anyone any good. You guys out there in your 20’s who feel like the world is out to get you on every side, take heart. The SMV stuff is very real and true. I’m about to turn 40 and I’m in great shape and viable in every way that I was at 20. I’m lucky to have a full head of dark hair but in general just take care of yourself and you will be on top for a long time after your crazy ex or the girl who’s rejecting you know has hit the wall and looks like a used up mess.

  75. I completely disagree with Eastwind about his parents being the only ones to love him for who he truly is. Does he not realize that he reciprocated his parents feelings? If he had children of his own, they too would feel the same way. Its when a game-aware man has kids that you can truly reflect on every woman who has loved you and realize how superficial their love was. It all pales in comparison to the unconditional love of your children.

    I thank God every day that my ex was so self-centered that she sold me full custody rights of our daughter in exchange for a bigger cut in the divorce. Now my kid is grown and Ive made back all the money I lost and then some. I also have a son on the way, with a woman that I will not make the same mistake of marrying.

    I know a lot of men in the manosphere dont want kids, and to each his own. But that decision should be based on personal feelings, not because of the weighing of financial risks. Its why I think child custody/support laws need to be revamped, and the issue shouldnt be left to the MRA-crowd alone.

  76. Feminism has had the bizarre, unintended consequence of freeing men.
    It will be interesting when women finally realize this.

  77. @Case, Immediate – I would record even if it is not legal – after all, what is likely to be more serious and more likely to be prosecuted – a concocted DV or rape charge or an illegal recording showing innocence from false DV or rape charge?

    @leftbelt, it’sme – women in their early and mid 30s are fine with me!!

  78. Sp5, you’ll hear no arguments from me on either point.

    Giligan, kind of flopping between heartiste, Rollo, Dalrock, and SSM lately I’ve been thinking its kinda like “Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall Humpty Dumpty had a great fall” and you know there’s that part about all the kings horses and men…
    The balance between men and women itself is one thing, the balance necessary to build and maintain a great civilization is quite another. Very declicate indeed. Its like they came at this, figured they could fuck around with it any which way they want and you know…what, consequences? Naaaaaa.
    Its like people just can’t seem to understand the words ” marriage is an institution”.
    Yeah! That’s right. A fucking institution. You know like the military or the police department or the civil or criminal courthouse or the mayors office which may all seem kinda quaint and anachronistic except that if you aren’t delusional you understand that without any of these things the whole cohesivesness of society comes apart.
    So, ya know, marriage, that quaint little institution where a man and woman cime together, subordinate their lusts and personal interests and you know: raise kids? Yeah that. Lets just fuck with it until its totally unrecognizable.
    I think I understand what Rollo is doing. Society is reordering. They broke marriage and can’t fix it. Like: can’t be done even if Jezebel and Paul Elam spawned a lovechild. There is a vacuum in the death of monogamy and it is an opening for men or “the masculine imperative”.
    It won’t be enough even if it is right. We fucked up our economics and our gender relations. But its something. I hope he’s right.

  79. BTW, note of warning to younger readers here…
    If you follow carefully the discussion between me ane Immediate here you should have noticed something that should really, really trouble you…
    1. I said (paraphrase) “oh shit! BPD? Be carefull she will do A, B, C to fuck you” and not even knowing Immediate I gave specifics
    2. Immediate, not knowing me, replied with (paraphrase) “no worries she already did” and then gave specifics.

  80. ‘ I hope refusing to get run over by the male imperative is not the same as being an agent of the female imperative.’

    What’s the male imperative to you Emma? How would you define it?

  81. Rollo I know you are busy with this book and work. So maybe sometime when you are pressed to put a RationalMale post, maybe use this idea.

    I was looking for something, that graphic at the top of a post that had a cartoon of a bride at her “you may now kiss the bride moment” and the cartoon bubble or cloud had her thinking “Whew that was easy”. So while I was cruising around, particularly in the posts listed on the One Year link, I started seeing old posts with themes. Jeez I am so surprised at many there were, and how many I had forgotten about.

    And some had things I would love to add comments to. So maybe when you get pushed and need a quick post, just write a blurb and tell people to go hunting, to find an excerpt or fragment from an older post, then comment on it.

    There is an old gold mine back in those posts. And not just the one year posts. I can see how you probably labored to pare the list down to what you put on it. Heck, just the “Hypergamy” category is enough unto itself, especially if someone gets back into mid 2012 about the time of the “Hypergamy doesn’t care” post. Motherfuckers were mad as hell after that post. I can think of few that were more damaging to women in the whole manosphere more than that one. I can remember thinking “Fuck you bitches!!!!! With a capital FUCK YOU!!” after that one.

    Could be interesting what they would come up with.

  82. @ Case

    “There is a vacuum in the death of monogamy and it is an opening for men or “the masculine imperative”.

    Beautifully phrased. I’m stealing that.

  83. The fundamental problem with respect to women would not change, even if the structure of this society, and its creators, were to suddenly disappear.

    This is because the current behavior of women was enabled by nothing more than allowing them to act as their nature has always been. They did not have to first attend Indifference University.

    Yes, the current level of technology has also enabled this by removing a significant amount of difficulty from life, but this difficulty was just a restraint on what she could do, and had no impact on what she wanted to do.

    I do not deny that there could be some true NAWALTs, mutants in the biological sense of the word, who have recovered what was perhaps bred out of women a very long time ago. But these women would have to have a simultaneous double mutation.

    They would have to be actually “nice, kind, beautiful, sweet, and intelligent”, while wanting to take care of men in a feminine way as much as they needed men to take care of them in a masculine way. Being “after” support and protection from men would not be a problem, if they wanted to exchange value for value. But such a purely rational drive would lead to a rather cold relationship, so taking care of men would also need to make them happy.

    Even more importantly, they would need to, and need to be able to, form an equivalent and reciprocal bond with a man. When a man has an encompassing and extended relationship with a woman, he builds a bond that eventually reaches into his soul. But women (even the rare kind and sweet ones), regardless of the length of the relationship, and even with the alphaest of alphas, are incapable of forming a bond that is deeper than that of a cheap stick-on nametag that you get at a convention: “Hi, xxx, my name is Mary, and I am your wife”.

    If she is with an alpha, perhaps no other man will be able to create a pull strong enough to change that “xxx” nametag to one with a “yyy”, but the fact remains that the suicide rate for a widower skyrockets, while the death of a spouse has no equivalent emotional effect on women.

  84. Pingback: Fear and Freedom
  85. @Robert – steal away and make it fly.
    Me personally, I thought the quip about Paul Elam and Jezebel spawning a lovechild was golden but yaknow…

  86. @Emma the Emo

    I hope refusing to get run over by the male imperative is not the same as being an agent of the female imperative.

    What would the male imperative look like? Would it look like Saudi Arabia?

    I can’t imagine any western woman, outside of those who literally convert to Islam *AND* leave the western world, getting run over by the male imperative.

  87. Don’t hate the game, hate the player.

    The problem isn’t that the world expects so much from men without giving “true love” in return, it’s that women have decided to reneg the social contract.

    I wouldn’t have a problem being a beast of burden for a young, attractive, submissive, chaste woman who I could be reasonably sure would remain faithful to me, but instead I am forced to choose from a pool of older, flabby, strong, independent skanks who had their fill of the cock carousel before they are finally “mature” enough to settle down? No thanks.

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