This has always been an interesting debate. I think it was David D’Angelo who coined the phrase, “Attraction is not a choice.” This notion is so popular even red pill carpet baggers like Aunt Sue had to give it wings.
Pandora from SoSuave broke it down thusly:
What is the true nature of attraction? I am often ambivalent about this myself. This is ultimately the root the contention between the so called “AFC”s and the so called “cynical” red pill guys.
Attraction is a deeply psychological phenomenon that is largely unpredictable. This camp implies that there is no deliberate decision that a woman makes to become attracted to a man. Her decision is made largely within the first few seconds of meeting or noticing you. They claim that whether a girl is into you or not is largely out of your control ( D’ Angelo). This philosophy gives credibility to the people who say money and looks really don’t matter too much. They are just icing on the cake. In all honestly I have seen example of this play out many times in real life. I mean we all know the common phenomenon of a hot girl with a loser boyfriend who sits on the couch all day and plays video games. We all had a girl that just was “attracted to us” no for no apparent reason. There are plenty of examples of successful women going after losers (not marrying, but screwing regularly). These guys are pretty average looking to tell you the truth. These guys are not really even that “alpha”. Kinda like Casino, I know its a movie, but when DeNiro’s wife who had everything was still deeply in love with the scumbag loser pimp who had nada. Many of these guys have self destructive tendencies really, aka bad boys types, emo losers, broke artsy dudes to plain ol average joes. If you ask the female why do you like this guy so much when you could get just abut any other guy… 9 outa 10 times they say ” i dont know, i just do, i wish i didnt”. They have no rational explanation for it. Many times the girl will admit that the guy isnt even attractive or her type thus supporting the view attraction is not a choice and deeply psychological.
Money, looks, power, and overall dominance will get u women more reliably than anything else. This is the red pill crew. There are a TON of examples of this also. Go to any rock concert, football game or club and you will see this in action. There’s a reason why women want to marry the rocker,doctor, lawyer, CEO, athlete. The catch is by agreeing with this viewpoint you have to agree that the nature of attraction in women is largely logical and deliberate. That women turn off or on their attraction based on status and resources. If you are this camp then how do u explain the examples of hot women going out with loser to average boy friends. Are these truly exceptions to the rule? How do you also explain chicks that dig you for no apparent reason at all (rare but it happens) and we have all had these types of girls once or twice.
This is an important question to answer because i think its the cause of many of the conflicts in the manosphere. Its also a fundamental question for any man. I think the truth is in the middle. I think that both camps are making something that is very complex into a cut and dry matter. For every instance of a chick being attracted to a high status male there is an instance of a chick just being attracted to a regular guys. Im starting to believe attraction is just one of those things that is largely unpredictable and mysterious. This is the whole basis of when women say they just felt or didnt feel any “chemistry”. Its largely mysterious. Like Rollo eludes to, attraction is a chemical thing.
There’s a very clichéd truism from the 80’s that states “a woman knows if she’ll fuck you in the first 5 minutes of meeting you.” I disagree somewhat, I would say a woman knows if she wont fuck you within the first 5 minutes of meeting you.
Attraction is instinctual and predictable, but is it a choice? It really depends upon the conditions of the persons involved. Honestly I think it’s kind of a loaded question because the answer tends to validate the beliefs and ego-investments (also prompted by personal conditions) of the one promoting it.
For the unemployed, chubby guy, believing that attraction is some nebulous, random occurrence gives him hope that, with a bit of Game, he can enjoy sex with the HB 9s that his douchebag “natural” friends are. Similarly, the good looking, affluent guy with a bit of Game is rewarded with sex so often that he attributes his success to his own capacity for ‘creating attraction’ that he presumes a woman is making a choice to be attracted to him.
Like pretty much everything else, attraction is conditional. I wont go so far as to say it’s a choice, but I will say there exist many prompts that can spur attraction when they are congruent with the conditions a woman consciously or subconsciously requires at a given time.
For example, in high school, teenage girls tend to focus their attraction (which is prompted by sexual arousal) on the teenage boys who best display an ideal physicality. Cute face, good body, maybe a slight bit of status with regards to exceptional performance (sports or drama for instance), but generally affluence and personal status aren’t an issue since none of them can expect a high school junior to be the CEO of his own company. Remove money & status from the sexual environment and physical arousal will tend to dominate. Personality and game, play in of course, but to a far lesser (adolescent) degree than when a woman is 19 and in a college environment where potential status, affluence, game and personality begin to take on more importance. Physicality still dominates arousal, but compatibility and future emotional and parental investment potential begins to factor into attraction. As a woman approaches 30-35 her preconditions for attraction and the priority she places on them shifts towards long term security. Physicality, while still important, is compromised in favor of long term security potential.
Now, is she choosing to be attracted to specific characteristics or types of individuals at different phases of her maturity? No, not consciously, but on some level of consciousness we are all aware of our own conditions and what (we believe) is necessary to meet satisfaction of particular deficits we lack. For the 32 year old AFC who’s never done anything different and has waited the better part of his 20’s for the, now 30, HB 8, he thinks his ship’s finally come in and that attraction is indeed some random act of divine kindness – rather than the fact that he now makes the kind of money his dream girl subconsciously realizes is necessary for her (and her offspring’s) long term provisioning.
Human nature being what it is, it’s important for Game aspirants (and those applying Game for other reasons) to understand that Game, inter-gender dynamism and the physical elements of arousal / attraction are Probablistic not Deterministic.
I don’t believe attraction is a conscious choice – no girl says to herself “hmmm,..I think I’ll be attracted to him” – but there are definite, predictable determinants, based upon the personal conditions of the woman, that influence a subconscious state of arousal and attraction. I know those are big $10 words, but try to think of it in terms that a woman doesn’t make a rational choice to be attracted to a guy, but rather is influenced by motivators she’s not fully aware of and makes an emotional association with them and the guy she is attracted to. Accurately determining what those motivators are and manipulating them (within any one Man’s capacity) is the heart of Game. Attraction may not be a choice, but what you do to stimulate the motivators of attraction is a choice – your choice.
I rarely engage in the “american chicks suck / foreign chicks rule” debates, but one of my best friends is Filipino who’s recently been making frequent trips back to the Philippines to visit family and (still) help out with the recovery effort after the last hurricane. He comes back with stories about how eager all the hottest Filipinas are to do anything sexual with him. He’s not an ugly guy, but by American standards he’s not all that desirable – short, stocky, about 15lbs overweight, well off but not wealthy. But because he’s American and Filipino he’s got status that few guys in P.I. can match. He has what we joke is the ‘Golden Ticket’ (ala Willy Wonka) to Amercia since he’s single. He’s got decent game and he does hook up in the U.S., but he says he doesn’t even have to make an effort in P.I. Women catch wind that he’s American and their legs spread involuntarily.
This is an excellent illustration of how status can influence attraction based upon personal conditions / deficits that prompt it. However, sustaining that attraction after that personal deficit has been satisfied is another post altogether.
So in layman’s terms you are saying Attraction is not a conscious choice made by women but one that can be unconsciously evoked by a guy with good game?
Yes, if that particular guy’s Game is what she’s subconsciously lacking. However, it’s all in the ‘read‘ of any given woman. If you read the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene, the first foundation of seduction is to have as full an understanding of your target as possible – this is called ‘reading’ your mark. To the best of your abilities, it’s important to evaluate where she is in her stage of life and pick out areas where she’s in a deficit. You may think this is impossible to do in the short space of sarging a girl at a bar for instance, but once you have a general understanding of the cues to look for it actually becomes second nature. I’ll give you an example.
There’s a woman I know named Julie who I bump into on occasion at promos I do. On first sight I see: she’s attractive, mature (late 30’s early 40’s perhaps), dresses to get attention, she’s thin, bleach blonde, and married (I know from the big diamond ring). After speaking with her for less than 10 minutes I know she’s attracted to me; there are ‘tells’ in her conversation with me, verbal cues that she’s hoping I will pick up on and deliver back covert confirmation of. 10 minutes in and I know she’s in a marriage of convenience with an affluent man, who can take care of her financially, but who’s incapable of meeting her physical deficit, her excitement deficit, her covert communications deficit, etc. If I wanted to seduce her, these would be the areas I would adjust my sarge to emphasize. She’s attracted to me because she sees my potential for satisfying her deficits, and then probes me for confirmation of her suspicions. I tell her I’m married in code-speak, and she chooses not to be attracted to me any longer, or at least not to such a degree that she wants to pursue any more.
Some people would call this being a good judge of character, but essentially the ability to ‘read’ a person (of either gender) is the beginning of good ‘natural game’.
I think we have to make distinctions on different levels of attraction.
You have your raging burning desire to bang, and you also have “oh he’s decent, I’ve hit the wall,, I’ll give him a chance” types.
If attraction creation equates to who she will or will not bang, then it is all over the place depending on the conditions.
Inspiring primal, animal lust in a girl is not the same thing.
You cant necessarily seal the deal fast, but you can definately blow the deal fast.
I remember a good piece of advice was to general avoid talking too much and to ‘do not help women figure out why they may not like you’.
[Iron Rule of Tomassi #8
Always let a woman figure out why she wont fuck you, never do it for her.]
True, arousal is not attraction.
Interesting you bring this up. I have been experimenting with this for the past year. Some observations: 1.Go into any room *explicitly* with the motive of scanning/tagging all the loser men out.loser does not mean poor or ugly.its just the way they are. Got it? Its tough to put it in words but to someone who goes out would get it. Now understand that a girl has 1000000x that power. 2.Once you bypass that filter, which is pretty easy. e.g. just watch the way brad pitt walks/tones himself in Meet joe black.Be sure you are a little verbose.kinda like YaReally’s… Read more »
What do you think is the best source of information on cold reading?
I enjoyed your piece on cold reading, and am looking for a detailed reference. .
A book, perhaps, something more detailed than Green’s work.
When I was in my younger dumber days…the girls I was with I always had the same question in my logical mind “Why are they with me?” or “How the heck did I get them?”
Several years later after swallowing the red pill I found out the answer…I was aloof, aggressive, and never acted like I was interested in them. So in a sense I think attraction in a woman is a subconscious choice in that they chose strong, manly traits. They will never verbally say that though.
Attraction definitely is a choice…
I’ve had women not look at me twice, only to do a complete 180 on me the minute i used a bit of ‘pre selection’ on them.
Granted, they can’t help what they’re attracted to.
But as a PUA/seducer. Once you understand what they are, it’s definitely something you can control by choice.
I could only generate that kind of horny with dread. The case where the woman went primal crazy with lust.Would appreciate any other methods if anyone here have those.
inb4 yareally comment about keyboard jockey theory
“I would say a woman knows if she wont fuck you within the first 5 minutes of meeting you.” Assuming I’m not so desperate I’d stick my dick in the coin return of a Coke machine, I know within seconds of meeting a woman that I have intention of fucking her. A binary thing, with a “no, I’m not going to fuck you” being a permanent no and a yes, right now I’m interested in fucking you” being a conditional yes that may in time, when I know more, become a no. Of course, most women I give a yes… Read more »
I think you can be instinctively attracted to someone as well as have attraction grow over time. Because I fall in love all over the place, I sometimes actively work against attraction. That means I won’t look at a person’s picture; I’ll delete emails or texts right away so I’m not tempted to re-read them and start getting gooey, etc. The opposite of this can be used to cause attraction. Good example: sending a girl a picture of yourself through text and telling her to save it with your i.d. Everytime you send her a text, your picture pops up… Read more »
I like the picture you chose for the article. On a few occasions I’ve done that with women I’ve dated and it gets them giddy. Caveman game?
Hell, I don’t even need to meet a girl to know whether I would fuck her.
You said arousal is not attraction – maybe men conflate attraction and arousal?
Attraction is like hunger, it is a subjective state with the biological function to bring about a certain behavior: getting food in the latter case, sex in the former. But in humans we can insert reasons between our subjective states and actions; if I’m hungry I might not go get food if I have reasons not to. The same goes with attraction. Much of a pick up is removing the reasons that get in the way of the mental pathway that flows from attraction to sex.
Just as a follow up, sometimes if you can’t remove the reasons you can increase the intensity of the feeling so that it overwhelms the reasons. If I get really hungry I’ll go get food even if I have reasons not to. Likewise, if attraction is very strong it can overwhelm a person’s reasons (change her mood, not her mind).
Rollo, after having started to study David DeAngelo almost 10 years ago, I can confidently say that the Camp 1 definition given is COMPLETELY WRONG. Pandora states “They claim that whether a girl is into you or not is largely out of your control ( D’ Angelo).” D’Angelo has NEVER stated that. What D’Angelo says, is “Attraction isn’t a choice.” He goes on to say that “If she doesn’t feel attraction, there’s nothing you can do about it. If she does feel attraction, there’s nothing she can do about it.” http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/you-need-to-stir-girls-emotions/ So it’s not that “whether a girl is into… Read more »
Chances are a “loser” substance abusing artist is banging your girlfriend if you’re an athlete or high-status good-looker, and the “dumbass” gym junky on steroids getting paid to look good or being offered a job by their fathers frat buddy is banging your girlfriend in front of a mirror at a kegger if you’re the depressed “loser” artist based on the fact your girlfriend is being fucked by the “alpha”. Says a lot about how far we’ve not come. No wonder artists end up falling in love with prostitutes and the “successful” “normal” guys end up marrying the milf blonde… Read more »
A benefit of being able to read people well –
it’s not what you missed out on but what you managed to avoid.
Great Post! “Probablistic not Deterministic”, those are words to live by, cause all you gotta do is play the odds.
“They claim that whether a girl is into you or not is largely out of your control ( D’ Angelo).” Jesus. This shit is why I put SoSuave at the bottom of the list when I recommend places to learn pickup, it’s like they’re actively trying to fuck up learning game. That’s not at ALL what D’Angelo means when he says “attraction is not a choice”. He’s saying women don’t choose to be attracted to a guy, that’s why listing your logical reasons for being a good match for her doesn’t get her wet. And that pushing the right buttons… Read more »
I like the picture you chose for the article. On a few occasions I’ve done that with women I’ve dated and it gets them giddy. Caveman game?
do it a lot they always love it
look into blood type on the woman you have been most attracted to and most attracted to you all three of mine have had the same type
Thanks for the article Rollo, good food for though. Would it be fair to say that attraction is like belief. You can’t control belief consciously, it isn’t under the control of the will directly (actually believe there is a purple elephant sitting in front of you right now) but there is lots of things you can do to indirectly control and influence what you believe. It seems in someways that attraction is like that. I would certainly agree that while for individual people prediction of what they find attractive may be somewhat variable, but like most things with human beings,… Read more »
I like the deficit model brought up here, deficit needs definately describes the variability of attraction cues. Seeking father figures, rebelling, status, physical lack, popularity etc. are definately driven by deficit motivation.
For the life of me I can’t think of one deficit drive that is fulfilled by a beta schlub, except of course, poor foreign women seeking financial security.
I’ve known too many woman who wanted to like a guy, but just couldn’t will themselves to. Thus my take on it is that attraction is NOT a choice. Even when a guy looks great on paper and logically the woman should want the poor guy, if there’s no gina tingles it’s just not happening. Granted there are some rare exceptions, but that’s not the focus of this discussion.
Attraction is not a choice. Yet, it seems all the understand on what is attractive is completely missed. This blog push hard on to not make the mistake of imprint our experience into the shoes of women and how women makes that mistake on our natures. Yet, in this case, it can very quite illustrative. Was there any conscious thought when getting a boner at the sight of a slim girl? We don’t make a conscious choice to what we find arousing/attractive, this can be mapped to women as well. Women take a wider measure of qualities than just physical… Read more »
attraction for women is NOT the visual, it’s in the mental. the opposite is true for men. i’m attracted to a beautiful woman initially, but can be swayed after i get to know her.
99% of women SEE me and think- “meh”, then they get to KNOW me, and are attracted. God bless game.
I want to add, no matter how much we talk about it, women simply are attracted to who they are. And chances are the women attracted to you aren’t attracted to you because of who you are. It’s because of who you represent to them. Recent article I read about how men are shamed for any and everything in which a girl commented about how ashamed she was for her “cringeworthy” behavior that she agrees she had been committing, revealed that even her newfound “realization” and “acceptance” for treating her boyfriend like shit made her realize how first she had… Read more »
have to agree with Catalyst, ‘probabilistic vs deterministic’ is the best and most succinct way i have seen it all summed up. Great article.
This post from Susan Walsh may have some relevance to the discussion about attraction. She reports on the rising influence of the “alpha female”:
I’m curious, Rollo, if you think there is anything that a woman who is not attracted to her husband can do to make herself feel attracted to him. There was a discussion about this at my place awhile back, but we could not decide if this is even possible or not.
@sunshinemary – if there is zero attraction present then there is no use waiting for a dose of attraction to fall out of the sky. It’s like having One-itus without the chemical thrills. There are so many people on the planet and life is too short to waste on a dead end situation.
This sounds harsh but the husband will know, even if only on a subconscious level, that his life will be better with someone who is attracted to him.
Yes, the commenters were split on whether or not a woman in that situation can make herself attracted to him. However, most of us agreed that lack of attraction does not justify divorce for Christians, so I feel really bad for a couple in that situation.
@sunshinemary – Ah yes. I didn’t consider people who adhere to some form of organised religion. That said, for every bible verse lecturing on the sanctity of marriage, there must be an equivalent and contradictory verse urging people to follow their hearts and be true to themselves?
Every man wants to be the guy who ran through a whole bunch of chicks in his teens, college years, and 20s. The reason being because it shows that they have the physical capability to make women drop their pants. No one wants to be the beta herb programmer that suddenly struck a gold mine with the next Facebook only to have two dozen reformed sluts knocking at his doorstep asking to be his wife. There was an interesting dichotomy between before I learned Game and after I learned Game. I noticed that the same chicks who didn’t pay me… Read more »
Women are concerned about what you have or can do IN THE NOW. TWISI Attraction IS a choice.
What do you think of this? On the subject of reading women for attraction cues this comes to my mind: what does it mean when a girl with long beautiful hair cuts it short? I once met a pretty girl with long hair down to her ass, dated her for a while and after I fucked her, she cut it to shoulder length the very next day. A lot of guys would hit on her and I assumed it was to make herself less attractive for them somehow. Since then every time I bang a girl with nice long hair… Read more »
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women are such a huge emotional creatures,its pathetic…give them good emotions,and they’ll laugh at your jokes,talk to you,flirt with you themselves…take the emotions away,its like you dont even exist after that