Chumps I’ve Known

It’s amazing the sheer amount of guys I know or have known who I’d classify as being AFCs. I’d like to say that pretty much every guy I’ve known has been an AFC with a handful of notable exceptions. Some grew out of it with experience, others were partially Game-aware or simply naturals who backslid and devolved into AFCs, and still others have been “lifers”; men who still don’t get it into their old age.

I was having a discussion about the legion of AFCs that most women have to sift through with my assistant where I work. She’s an attractive (HB7.5-8) young woman of 26 who’s been dealing with an AFC long distance and non-exclusively for well over a year now. Her frustration comes from the multitudes of Betas she meets in her dating life – in fact after working with me for over 2 years she instantly identifies guys as AFCs. She’s familiar with the mindset now; the lack of decisiveness, the neediness, the wish-washy yet possessiveness, and all the other Qualities of the AFC. All of this got me to thinking about the AFCs I know or have known and their individual circumstances.

Dave L
Dave L. is perhaps the most pitiable of AFCs I’ve known. His story, as he tells it, began with his very overbearing and domineering mother. He came from a very strict Baptist family and so dealt with a very guilt-conscious mother for the better part of his life. Interestingly he transitioned from an authoritarian mother to an authoritarian wife. He’d only ever slept with one woman, Sue, whom he met in the military in his 20s. She was a sexually abused (by her uncle) single mother of 2 delinquent sons who saw in Dave L. what she never did in the other men in her life – a guy she COULD control. They’ve been married over 25 years now and had a daughter. In this time he has been little more than a slave to her. Their history is one of a constant brow-beating by her as he perpetually tries to find ways pacify her in the exact way he tried to pacify his mother’s insecurities. Every decision he’s ever made has been to appease her and has never been “good enough”.

When I met Dave L. his daughter had learned from her mother how to control him just as strictly. It was as if she had been passed his leash so she too could learn how to discipline him, and to keep him in check. When we first met I used to butt heads with both his daughter and his wife (and unwittingly so) because I would openly challenge their authority over him by questioning his autonomy as a man. They of course instantly jumped to his defense and maintained he was a “real man” and I would be too if only I would defer to women’s authority.

Ron
For a time Ron was one of my best friends and not a guy you’d really want to arouse to anger. He had my back in a lot of bad situation and I was his confidant and counselor for many years. But for as in control and assertive as he could be, Ron was an AFC. He had the Bad Boy posture that women loved, but he defeated himself with his soulmate-ONEitis mythology. He married Kris at 19. They met in the Navy, and he got her pregnant fairly early which prompted the marriage. Kris was beautiful and one of 3 women Ron had ever been with. He “did the right thing” and married her, and they stayed married, having 2 more children throughout their 20’s. Gradually, Kris left Ron to himself and the kids more and more as she felt she’d missed out on her 20’s and spent more time with her single girlfriends in the evenings. She began to resent Ron, who by now had let his physique go while she stayed in good shape. Ron didn’t see the signs, because he’d been progressively pushed into a position of having to qualify to his wife and internalized the thinking that it was “the right thing for a man to do.”

Ultimately at 29, Kris cheated on him. I was on the other end of the phone with him after he’d been searching all night through the town in which they lived for her car – with their children in the back of their mini-van. As melodramatic as all this sounds, he’d tracked her down to a motel and had been waiting in the parking lot since 4am for her to come out so he could kill her. I managed to talk him out of that, and he tried to “make it work” after the incident for another 4 years, but this was really last stop before toll. At present, she’s planning on marrying another lover she had and their family/children is in shambles.

While Ron wasn’t the cause of this, his AFC responses, progressive beta-ness, rationales and inaction only contributed to his present condition.

Dave B
Dave B is a textbook example of insanity – repeating the same mistake over and over. His first wife was his ONE, so was the second, so was the GF between wife 2 and 3 and so was the third. With wife #1 he had two daughters. After their divorce she gained custody of them and was awarded spousal and child support. Wife #2, another daughter, but only after they’d divorced once, made up, had the ubiquitous make-up sex and she got pregnant “by accident”, then they divorced for good. She too was awarded spousal support and child support for a daughter he never sees. After #2 Dave “met the ONE” again and moved her and her son and daughter from 2 different fathers into his home. After the teenage son was picked up for burglary of some neighborhood homes he got into a verbal argument with the GF. Dave B made the mistake of merely snatching the keys to the car, the car he’d given her, away from her hands. That was enough to have him restrained from entering the home he was paying for, driving the car he was paying for, and Dave B went to live with mom & dad for a spell until that was sorted out. Now Dave B is on wife #3; another single mother of 2 daughters. In the meantime wife #1 self- destructed and he was order by the court to assume custody of his first 2 daughters (which is what he wanted anyway) after they’d been abused by their stepfather and wife #1 turned up to be a meth addict. Turns out all that money he’d been paying for years went to feed her habit and the habit of the abusive step-father.

Shawn
Shawn is a guy I know who basically ONEitised on EVERY girl who EVER dated him. He’d been married for about 2.5 years to a fairly religious girl who told him she “wanted to be a pastor’s wife” only to have her eventually cheat on him with a guy who was the Bad Boy and ended up in Las Vegas. Shawn went on to get a master’s in education, and moved to a string of the “coulda been” girlfriends, who’d date him for about 2-3 weeks, figure out his Disneyesque views of love, LTRs and men & women in general. He was a very good songwriter until he found himself in one of these “coulda been” ONEitis spells. Then every song was about the girl he thought was his “gift from above” and he proceeded to smoother her in his clingy-ness and idealize her on a pedestal.

He went through about 3 or 4 of these while I knew him until he met his 2nd wife. Mary was a single mother of one son and technically his step-cousin (his step-fatehr’s, brother’s daughter). She’d “accidentally” gotten pregnant by a black guy on the college basketball team and according to her very strict (and notably racist) father had disgraced the family, but they being religious, she had the baby and began her life as a single mom. Shawn adopted the Cap’n-save-a-ho persona and started this whirl wind ONEitis crusade to “do the right thing” and not only marry her, but legally adopt her son. Mary of course was happy to have the help, but saw Shawn for what he is; desperate and a romantically idealistic AFC. Mary was actually a pretty good friend of Mrs. Tomassi for a time and she’d confide in her that she wished he had the ambition and drive that I had. The short version was that she wanted a Man she could respect – similar to her authoritative father – and while Shawn was welcome help, she just wasn’t hot for him. Now Shawn is legally bound to her and the child he never fathered and has little respect for him. After 8 years of marriage they still haven’t had the child(ren) that Shawn wants.

 

Recounting the stories of AFCs we’ve known is educational in that it illustrates the commonalities of conditions these guys (sometimes ourselves included) face and the mindset that accompanies them. It’s very easy to go all self-help-motivational on people and tell them what they ought to do and ought to believe about themselves, but stories like this make the conditions real for us. I’d encourage commenters to relate the stories of some of the AFCs they’ve known in the comment thread.

I wont argue the merits of bolstering your self-esteem and taking action to make a positive improvement in yourself toward becoming a capital ‘M’ Man. There are hundreds of blog threads in the community that address this, but recounting the wreckage of lives that AFCism (for lack of a better term) puts the reasons why a guy needs to “improve” in sharp perspective. It’s like seeing the emaciated starving children in 3rd world countries on Unicef commercials as a prompt to do something.

I didn’t start this post as a warning sign for AFCs, nor did I start it point out what not to do. It’s an illustration of the sheer scope of the problem and the very real impact it has not just on men’s lives, but their families, the women they paired off with, their children, their friends, etc. That might seem negative, but it’s reality. I could’ve just as well posted about PUAs I’ve known (which would’ve been a lot shorter), or glossed my own marriage in an effort to point AFCs in the right direction, but powder-puff enthusiasm tends to only come off as conceit. And in the end, the AFC still thinks his best course to a fulfilled LTR/marriage is doing exactly what he is already doing – only more so. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

57 comments

  1. Lmao that photo made me laugh my black ass off!!

    Yea man,we’ve all known AFC’s,since we’ve all been there.Most of my friends today,or guys I associate with aren’t Alpha males.The globe is absolutely filled with wussies and AFC’s.

    I’m curious though,that HB who works with you,is she aware of PUA jargon?Meaning,does she actually use the terms AFC,Beta,Alpha with you,you are you just stating that she’s innately aware that men fall in those categories?

  2. I am an AFC. I am a beta. I exhibit every one of the buffers you have written about. I have been through two relationships – one for three years where she controlled the frame and another for a bit over a month with “the one” who picked up on my AFCisms and LJBF’d me. I inadvertently responded to this in the correct manner. Everything you have written about has been in the back of my mind at one point or another but I have never acted on it. I didn’t think it was possible. None of my male role models: my father, my priest, my grandfathers, are AFCs or betas. My family upbringing was not to be a beta. One of my brothers it thoroughly unplugged and the other could get that way.

    In short, thank you. My eyes are opened. I am at fault for my previous failures. It is time for me to unplug.

  3. Rollo,

    “That was enough to have him restrained from entering the home he was paying for, driving the car he was paying for, and Dave B went to live with mom & dad for a spell until that was sorted out.”

    – This sense of injustice is what makes my fuck**ng blood boil. I mean he wasn’t even married to the bitch and was still kicked out of his house. Damn!

  4. For all the older commentators on this site, how much disposable income would a fairly successful man have available if he forgoes marriage and children?

  5. One of my very good friends is an AFC and he’s getting married to a controlling woman. The funny thing is I knew then both before they met each other and by some coincidence ended up together. We are good friends and get along but when I observe their behavior is pretty terrible. He’s got a lot of good traits, hobbies, a good job and he’s in his 30’s. She commands the household and does everything she says while she sits on the couch. He cooks, he cleans, and acts as a servant to her. He’s asked me before why I’m not inclined to be in an LTR and I’ve explained my red pill knowledge to him his response? “That changes if you have the right woman.” He is so blinded by his love for her he doesn’t see the err of his ways. I predict a high probably of a nasty divorce.

    One thing he does that Moe’s me cringe is when she spits a command and he doesn’t follow she yells at him and wont defend himself. He speaks to her in a high pitched, submissive tone that screams beta. Sometimes her and I bump heads when I ask about the way things are between them and all of a sudden I’m sexist. Its going to take her pillaging his life ina divorce for him to open his eyes and it makes me sad. But when I’m sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead.

  6. Remember the matrix analogy Rollo used in an earlier article. Plugged in men are our enemy. These men are a greater danger to us than women are. Don’t feel sorry for them, try to help them etc. Maintain social niceties and just make sure they don’t rub off on you.

  7. A turning point for me was realizing – deciding – that anger is usually preferable to despair.

    “Self improvement” should be less about denying/repressing anger, and more about owning/harnessing it.

  8. i dated a controlling woman recently, when you cant game her and covert communication wont suffice what’s one to do, i came close on a couple of occasion to giving her a slap, but i didnt. Rollo your opinion on something please? I know that girl was raised in a household where the mother ruled the roost, is this where the inculcated mental schema comes from? i suspect its partly this and a combination of somwthing else for a person to need to be in control at all times.

  9. What about omegas? Are AFCs in the same category as ugly, lazy, short, fat, balding, not-very-bright life-long virgins? Have you ever analysed omegas you have known to any degree? Yohami had an excellent and well-received essay on omegas recently – one of the first ever, by my lights. I’d be interested in seeing what an insightful blogger like you might have to say about this category of men no one has ever really discussed.

  10. ha ha, it would of only brought short-term satisfaction and probably a court appearance for my trouble.

  11. I agree. I just think that poster is absolutely hysterical and I was instantly reminded of it reading your post.

    It is unfortunate that many women think they have power because the courts back them up. They have given up their natural power to the state and it cares nothing for them. I am sorry that men are currently receiving the utter brunt of the abuse.

  12. I’m a former Omega male. I didn’t lose my virginity until I was 29 years old, to a woman who became my first girlfriend. I am 34 years old now. I have had a total of two serious relationships and 9 different sexual partners since then. I think Omegas are men that are totally captive to their AFC behaviors and tendencies and never managed to overcome their AFC mindset. If my own story is any indication, they come from homes where the mother is the dominant parental figure and the father is absent or distant.

    I still have a lot of AFC tendencies. I recognize them now. Most of the time I can catch myself and stop it before it’s too late and I’ve torpedoed my chances with a given woman. But from time to time I still find myself doing things that come naturally to me but are totally AFC behaviors. I think the difference now is that I totally “get it” and understand it, but the execution is not quite there now. I try not to beat myself up too much when I fail these days, because I am trying to overcome damn near 20 years of conditioning and a deeply ingrained mental framework that is at odds with how the world really works. Sometimes I get really sad thinking about how there is a huge chunk of my life I can never get back, but I’m glad to be undergoing this baptism by fire in my early thirties as opposed to much later in life when it might really be too late.

  13. Right. Yeah-ah-ah.

    I thought I was an AFC, but apparently I was a bit hard on myself. These guys are walking disasters.

  14. The following example is nothing spectacular, but it was edifying for me to see how a random encounter perfectly epitomized beta “coping” mechanisms in a relationship. I recently ran into a friend I hadn’t seen since college. He’s an average guy in the best sense of the word – think Jimmy Stewart in a Frank Capra film. He finally gets to talking about this woman he’s been seeing for several months. By his own admission, it’s a one-way relationship: he is her 24/7 emotional lifeline, always on call to listen to her feelings and her problems, and so far he has not gotten so much as a peck on the cheek from her. As he’s telling me this, he freely admits that the whole setup is an embarrassment – all the while obliquely and wistfully hinting at her being a marriage prospect. Pretty atrocious, right? Yet this guy is an absolutely decent, normal individual – exactly the kind of person civilization needs in droves in order to function. And out of all the possible strategies he could think of with this girl, his choice is to go full beta. I’m pretty sure this whole dynamic is his doing, not hers. I wanted to direct him to a few websites, including this one, but kept my mouth shut. Even the least controversial elements of the Manosphere would have probably made him pretty indignant and he would have thought I was a nut. He no doubt thinks he is “different” from other guys – sensitive and caring, and this is what will win the heart of this Princess. The thing about AFCs is that they think they are unique and special, whereas they’re a dime a dozen.

  15. They have given up their natural power to the state and it cares nothing for them.

    WRONG. Look how much the state cares!

    If you are a man intimidated by the laws and courts being skewed against the masculine advantage, do the rest of us a big favor and stay out of our way while we unfuck things. Stop with all the complaining. Look at what you’ve done — the women pity us (“I am sorry that men are currently receiving the utter brunt of the abuse.”) Chillax, MRA Mollies. No law or court can repeal human nature for very long.

    Naturam expellas furca, tamen usque recurret.

    Matt

  16. I like the approach. I think I get the shame-the-beta approach, and have internalized somewhat the disgust at acting in non-manly ways. It does point a guy in the right direction to feel disgust and shame for doing it wrong. But your approach is, I think, more mature and honest, and accepts the inner beta in us all. Acceptance has to be more powerful than shame, in the bigger picture, and the way you are using it is no less motivational.

  17. @Nas,

    A *lot* !!!! I’m 55, never married, lived with a woman for 4yrs once..
    I own 2 homes outright, and have all the toys I have time to play with. Make less that $100K/yr., and have all the $$$ I need. 100% debt-free. My time (when not at my fun job) is my own.

    Never paid a single penny to a lawyer, either. Downside?

    I haven’t gotten a lot of poon in my life – trying to fix that, while the “Johnson” still works..

  18. No snarky comment deriding a commenter’s intellectual capacity? No cite to an obscure philosophical treatise to try and bolster your intellectual cred? No preaching…not even a little? No long-winded, flatulent essay?

    Is this a post from the REAL “King A (Matthew King)?”

  19. Survivorman,

    – Do you have a blog? I think it is important for older never married or divorced men to share with us youngins that life isn’t all doom and gloom if you don’t follow the societal script of college then get a 9 to 5, buy a house, get married, have kids. Girls and Betas will say you will end up alone as if it is the worst insult they can throw at you but I know a lot of that fearmongering is simply projection.

  20. “I own 2 homes outright, and have all the toys I have time to play with. ”

    – LOL man don’t skimp on the good part. What kind of hobbies and toys do you get to enjoy? Contrast that with your married friends please.

    Thanks

  21. In Rollo’s words, the difference between AFC and a recovering AFC is that when an AFC gets a rejection and thinks “What did I do wrong?”

    When a recovering AFC gets rejected he thinks: “What can I do differently next time?”

    I’ve been on my own journey out of AFC. I’ve done quite well. But I do find cold approaches/approaches on the street intimidating.

    At times when things don’t work out I do fall into the “What did I do wrong?” mode and quickly shake myself out of it into “How do I fix this?”

  22. I think one other thing. There is a belief that game can turn everything around.

    A major part of my transformation is understanding which situations with women require the courage/resolve to walk away instead of constantly trying to tinker and be clever to try to reverse whatever flake or rejection that happens to be.

    Women are emotional, they can be totally into you and suddenly get some idea in their head and pull away. If you keep following or chasing….it’s AFC.

  23. how do you tell other guys about this? I am not an alpha but the guys at work are owned by their wives. by the way they talk they have no say in anything.

  24. Man you really need to take your head out of your ass. In all of these stories you have some seriously fucked up women but you never called them out on it. Instead you put down the men. You sound more like a feminist than most women do. Put the blame where it belongs, on the women not the men. If more people held women accountable then most of this bullshit wouldn’t be happening.

  25. His audience is men dumbass. There’s plenty of ink on “bitches be crazy”. Beta bitch boys deserve their share too.

  26. There’s plenty of “bitches are crazy” here too. The guys who mold themselves to the bitches need awakening.

  27. It’s difficult enough to get most men to change from afc–now imagine asking women to improve their behavior? Not going to happen, not in this day and age and society. You wouldn’t change either if you had both power and no responsibility. Call them out and they’ll just circle the wagons.
    Only thing you can do is open your eyes and game the system one woman at a time.
    (Off-topic: women may have power, but they’re not content.)

  28. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again- I simply cannot fathom the idea that a man would be “owned” by his wife. If you have to ask permission do do something you are not only a weak man, but you are also with the wrong woman.

    Maybe I’m stronger than I give myself credit for or I am simply able to avoid women like that but I can’t even wrap my head around the idea of a chick trying to pull something like that on me. She would either be met with my Thor hammer or she’d be gone.

  29. I’m thankful I’ve had a few natural alpha qualities before I knew about game, enough to not become a total vagina slave. They weren’t enough however and I did have bad experiences with women. Thankfully I never got married and/or experienced the worst of them all, divorce theft and children kidnapping.

    My brother-in-law is the first AFC that comes to mind. He is an indentured servant to my sister, a pack mule. He never, ever does anything for himself, like maybe buy himself some nice clothes, new electronics, or anything that he might be interested in. His entire existence is serving my sister and his now 11 year-old daughter. It’s painful to watch. My niece (their daughter) is a cool girl, but exhibits entitled princess behavior on occasion.

    A few times she asked me to do things for her, like carry her school bag, or get this, make her a bowl of cereal. I’d laugh and say no, and she’d say, “why not, daddy does it for me.”

    “I ain’t your daddy.”

    When I eat dinner over there sometimes she’ll eat in her room and her father will bring in her dinner on a tray, in her room for fucks sake. It’s disgusting. The surprising thing is, this guy also has a few natural alpha qualities: he’s a bigger than average guy, has a commanding voice, you definitely wouldn’t want to mess with him because he will probably kick some ass, but forget it, when it comes to women he is a white knight pussy slave. And, AND, I suspect he and his wife have very little sex anyway.

    What concerns me is they have a two year-old boy now as well. And I don’t want my nephew following in his father’s footsteps and becoming yet another AFC with a diminished or ruined life. He is already becoming a momma’s boy, when she leaves the house he gets upset. Now, this might be normal for young children, but a couple of times the dad has said:

    “He favors his mother. That’s how it should be.”

    That pissed me off. Instead of learning from his mistakes, he wants his son to be a female servant like him. Well, he’s not my kid, but I will do whatever I can to covertly impart red-pill advice to my nephew in the upcoming years.

  30. At two, I think most boys do favor their mother, but starting at about three/three and a half most boys will want to start to mimic their fathers in nearly anything they do. Dress, mannerism, activities, etc. That poor boy is going to have a very difficult time unless you have some success in waking up his father. You would be a good role model for him, but he will idolize his father. Changing his mind about things is that young boys best hope.

  31. You’re right that young boys do generally have a normal attachment to their mom, especially in the early years, and maybe throughout their life. Nothing wrong with that, but in this particular situation it’s in danger of developing into female worship, and I get the sense that the father wants it that way, for his boy to become a white knight just like him because he believes that’s what a ‘real man’ is.

    As far as me waking up my brother-in-law, that will most likely never happen, and I won’t even attempt it. As you and most people are aware, family dynamics can be sensitive and there are certain things you just can’t do or say, especially things like telling someone how to raise their kids. That I don’t have kids myself doesn’t help.

    I have talked to my sister in topical terms about masculinity and what is good for boys, and thankfully my sister is very intelligent and can be reasonable, and she does not want an effeminate son. So that’s good. But she doesn’t nearly understand the depths of what young men face today, and she also has a few feminist beliefs which don’t help.

    Best I can do is give the boy advice when he gets older. Little snippets of red-pill here and there.

    (I just want to add that my sister and brother-in-law are good people and are not ‘bad’ parents by any stretch, but I don’t want my nephew to grow up to experience what 90% of men do for years or decades: AFC hell.)

  32. I wish you and your family much luck, Sharp. I know exactly what you mean by family dynamics and it’s a very tough position that you are in but with the three of you looking out for him, he should be well taken care of. You are a good Uncle. 😉

  33. WRONG. Look how much the state cares!

    I hope you are being sarcastic here. I cannot tell. However, pandering to women who do not understand very basic economic principles does not show the state cares. It shows that the state wants their vote. Bottom line. The fact that this website will draw any women in at all shows why women, as a whole, should not vote.

    No law or court can repeal human nature for very long.

    No, thank God, it cannot. The push back has begun and I only think it will gain momentum. As goes the economy so goes feminism. She might just be getting a huge kick in the ass in the next few months to few years. Even if we were not headed for huge economic problems, feminism is still beginning it’s death throws. She will not be missed.

  34. Nas,

    My passions in life are motorcycles and guitars. I have both dirtbikes and streetbikes, and more electric and acoustic guitars hanging on my walls than I care to admit !

    I’m renting out one of my houses at the moment, and as I said, I’m absolutely, positively NOT wealthy in the conventional (monetary) sense.. It’s just amazing how little $$$ it takes to live an enjoyable and 100% fulfilling life without a woman in the house.

    Lonely? Far, FAR from it! I have a few good friends, and many acquaintances that I’ve run across in the pursuit of my hobbies – like attracts like.

    In most cases, I am the envy of my married friends – although that was not the case when I was a younger man;
    There was a lot of pressure to “find that special girl”.. Somehow, I never found her.

    I guess (maybe) someone was watching out for me.

  35. And if he does “win” her, the prize will be having to be emotional tampon for the rest of his life. Or for the 5 years of the marriage.
    It was wrong of you to keep your mouth shut. You ought to have taken the risk.

  36. sharp wrote:

    As far as me waking up my brother-in-law, that will most likely never happen, and I won’t even attempt it. As you and most people are aware, family dynamics can be sensitive and there are certain things you just can’t do or say, especially things like telling someone how to raise their kids.

    True enough. But you don’t tell him with words. You tell him with example. You build a reputation for a certain kind of wisdom, and when the time comes, they approach you. It requires patience and humility and consistency.

    The nephew will eventually develop an instinct for manly role models without your having to say anything. He will seek you out in that regard if you represent yourself well. The trick is not allowing it to turn into a rivalry with your brother-in-law. Let him in on the game in measured doses. If he’s a man, he will be receptive. Alphas are allies in this world of women and betas.

    Have the confidence that comes with natural law. Just as water seeks its own level, all men want to be manly. But in this era, they think the very idea is verboten. You can demonstrate that, though manliness is laughed at, you don’t get the resentful little joke. If that fails, you can be the cool uncle, who has more influence over nephews (and nieces) than might be imagined. Think of your own uncles — they are purer archetypes than even fathers because they remain at a distance and therefore can be idealized.

    Raising a man is not automatic. It is a difficult task. Though your siblings may be resentful of direct meddling, they will appreciate a limited and indirect assist. Your sister indicates as much.

    Matt

  37. +1

    As a female blogger said: “If you have a rational argument, take it to the men….Nothing will change until the money runs out. Until then, women won’t care.”

  38. Thank you, Rollo. These case studies are painful to read. They’re painful by themselves but, more importantly, they’re painful because most guys can see parts of themselves (or parts they’ve been tempted to play) in each story. And the reflection isn’t a pretty one.

    In thinking about the commonalities in all AFCs, I’m struck by something you said in the story of DaveL:

    Their history is one of a constant brow-beating by her as he perpetually tries to find ways pacify her in the exact way he tried to pacify his mother’s insecurities.

    I don’t want to get too Freudian here, but your comment above makes the Freudian interpretation an obviously good place to start: as Dave L shows us, each of these AFCs are trying to fill a need they didn’t get filled in childhood. Because they didn’t get it filled, it remains a gaping hole; the men are incomplete. They’re now trying to fill this hole in adulthood through their dating partners–often desperately so. The trouble is: they’re stuck using the primitive tools from childhood in order to do so.

    Every AFC is playing out a very familiar script. It’s like they’re reading from a part in a play, the only play they know. And the significant other in each story is very often an equally incomplete female. She’s been recruited (actually, she happily volunteered) to play the corresponding part opposite the AFC’s. In the case of DaveL for example, his wife, as you say, desperately needs to control. This is, in fact, the very reason she selected DaveL. And she’s been successful at it. She’s successfully browbeaten DaveL in a bid to fill her own insecurities–which likely reflect a father who was never really present. But in so doing, DaveL’s wife has sabotaged the very security she originally hoped to achieve. Dave has now psychologically become only half the man he originally aspired to be.

    These are all vicious circles. All these relationships are f*cked and will continue to be so until BOTH parties understand how they’ve sought out and encouraged the very behaviors in the other that they each condemn. …Either that or DaveL and the others will stay in a rut. They’ll simply go on recruiting new willing partners (wife #2, #3, and so forth) with whom to follow the very same script.

  39. I have watched men I know repeat various of the above stories over and over throughout life. And they are always seem to envy the life I have – I try to explain they could have it to. Many are physically more attractive than I am – almost all younger, more athletic – but they lack the one thing I have in spades – confidence, and a willingness to walk away from any situation which isn’t beneficial to me. It doesn’t matter if I’ve known a woman for years – I’m always willing to cut my losses. And I don’t mind being single – actually, I enjoy the possibilities it provides to me.

    I think that is the biggest difference between the AFC and the guys who aren’t – a willingness to be alone. I see guys that put up with all sorts of stuff that I wouldn’t. They seem to see it as a badge of honor – I’ve tried to tell them that is “female” thinking, but it doesn’t get through. So they go through life being taken advantage of repeatedly. They never seem to be willing to just walk away. Till they get over their fear of enjoying life alone, they are doomed to being treated like a doormat.

  40. Doc, when you say…

    …but they lack the one thing I have in spades – confidence, and a willingness to walk away from any situation which isn’t beneficial to me. It doesn’t matter if I’ve known a woman for years – I’m always willing to cut my losses.

    That’s pretty powerful. It’s no doubt part of your success. But for most AFC’s that doesn’t seem the entire solution. Take the example of DaveB above. Dave has walked away (or his wife has matched him in walking away) from not one, not two, but THREE heavy relationships. The only thing a willingness to walk away seems to be doing for DaveB is adding to his child support bills. There’s something more that’s needed here.

    A willingness to walk away might work for some guys. And in truth, it’s likely not be the willingness to walk away that’s your key to success, but rather the “willingness to walk away” is just a manifestation of your self-confidence and a whole lot of other successful traits. But unless the AFC gets these other aspects of his shit together, he’s destined to keep repeating the same insanity over and over and over again. All he’ll learn from walking away is how to walk from one identical scene to the next. He’ll never really get his own relationship needs met. Worst of all, he’ll bequeath a host of “daddy issue” problems to the progeny left in his wake, adding a whole generational dimension to the cycle.

  41. Good advice, thanks.

    The situation is even a little more screwed up than I let on. I think my sister is, in part, consciously undermining her son because he’s a boy. She wants to control a male for once in her life. She’s had some bad relationships in the past with ‘bad boys’ and has resentment for men.

    I can see this scenario playing out in countless young men’s life with overbearing mothers, or ‘smothers’ as I call them, as modern women have more control over their children’s lives than ever before (single mothers, domineering mothers with AFC husbands). And we’re seeing the result as more young men are dropping out, doing worse in school, becoming effeminate, pedestalizing women, and ending up as AFCs.

    I blame women for being vindictive, solipsistic and selfish, and men for letting it happen for all the various reasons Rollo, and the manosphere discusses.

    The nephew will eventually develop an instinct for manly role models without your having to say anything.

    True. I’ll do the best I can in that regard.

  42. To unbowed, you say that women will never change in this day and age and society but if you read most blogs on the net by men who travel alot they will tell you that women abroad are nowhere near as crazy as the ones here. And yet there societies are just as modern as ours. As far as gaming the system one women at a time, that is too much of a risk these days. I know plenty of men that have been fired from jobs, falsely accused of inappropriate behavior, paid child support for children that weren’t their’s, spent time in jail etc, etc, all because of sorry ass women. Some of these things even happened to men in my family. My point is women are the problem not men so quit blaming them. And finally as to what the female blogger said, why would you even listen to a women when you know they don’t have common sense?

  43. I have spent most of my life in the church. The AFC is the model for all men there. It always felt wrong, but I tried to to tow the line in my marriage. It seemed to work for most men. They would even give me advice on what would make her happy. I tried a couple times, but the reaction was one of either entitlement or graciousness with future entitlement. Rarely was there true appreciation. The modern church emasculates men to be AFCs, and if you don’t get in line, then you get what you deserve. The last two churches I have gone to, I have had someone lightheartedly say “so what did you do?” My response as I found the exit sign was “i started acting like a man again.” The AFC has to believe that its something the man did to cause the split, because the AFC has completely based his course of action on the idea that he can do it all to have a good marriage. His ego is tied up in the idea that he is in control of whether they succeed or not. Not through his leadership though, but through her happiness. Failure must then indicate that the other guy was not good enough. These men have confused self sacrifice for being a door mat. They don’t lead their wives, they patronize by treating them like children.

  44. “His ego is tied up in the idea that he is in control of whether they succeed or not. Not through his leadership though, but through her happiness. Failure must then indicate that the other guy was not good enough. These men have confused self sacrifice for being a door mat.”

    +1

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