“Rollo talks a lot about shaming tactics from women, and one I’m hearing now is that if the man doesn’t pay for the date, he is actually being feminine and passive, and is attracting more masculine, ball-busting like girls because he’s giving his role of pursuer up, and feminine women will be repelled by men who don’t pay for their drinks/dinner/dates etc.
To me, it just sounds like women being afraid of losing an advantage they’ve always had, free stuff.
How do you see it? First date is coffee, do you pay for that? Does she pay for her own? Do you look cheap if you buy that first cup? Do you look needy if you buy that first cup?”
Law 40: Despise the Free Lunch
What is offered for free is dangerous— it usually involves either a trick or a hidden obligation. What has worth is worth paying for. By paying your own way you stay clear of gratitude, guilt, and deceit. It is also often wise to pay the full price— there is no cutting corners with excellence. Be lavish with your money and keep it circulating, for generosity is a sign and a magnet for power.
Read this again, what has worth is worth paying for. The feminization of culture has simultaneously distorted the formality of a man paying for a date into a form of masculine control while still being a required masculine obligation. It’s a Catch 22 – screwed if you do, screwed if you don’t, and there are two conflicting perspectives for this.
As I’ve expressed on a few occasions; as a man in this life, you will ALWAYS pay for sex in one form or another. That may be buying coffee, drinks, dinner, a concert ticket, a wedding ring or a mortgage payment, but always trust that there is going to be a cost associated with you and sex. Whether it’s with your nebulous ‘Quality Woman’ or the prostitute you picked up off the Trail for half an hour – you’re going to pay.
The second perspective is the ‘Chivalry’s not dead’ approach. Nothing has served the feminine imperative better over the years than to convince the male populace at large that it’s his codified moral obligation to prove his provisioning capacity to her in an effort to qualify for her intimacy. This point of view has had a long history of perpetual requisites for a man, but the holdover, and starting point today is paying for the drinks / date / etc based on a traditional, gender specific, obligation.
In light of that, if it makes you feel a sense of completed duty in paying for a woman’s drinks / meal, then by all means continue to do so, but not because a woman’s convinced you of a moral obligation. My approach is to recognize this ‘tradition’ for what it really is. You’re a Man. Men of power despise a free lunch; not from business associates and certainly not from a woman he intends to make his pleasure.
What has worth is worth paying for. By paying your own way you stay clear of gratitude, guilt, and deceit.
You also stay clear of obligation. There can never, and will never, be an egalitarian equality between the sexes: we are different. The good news is this is the way women want it in spite of their feminization conditionings. Covertly, women want a Man who initiates, approaches, drives, and yes, pays the tab. However, when overtly pressed about ‘paying her way’, she is forced into a position of denying this because her conditioning has taught her “she is her own person” and the expectations of her day say she should at least pay half, not be afraid to approach a man, initiate a date herself, etc. Make Sadie Hawkins proud.
These are masculine expectations, and much like the “virtues” of the professional woman, feminine masculinization conditions her to equate her value on masculine terms, while still being a woman. The fallacy being that a Man ‘should’ be attracted to the same masculine traits she finds attractive. And predictably, innate gender nature continues to contradict this.
So yes, pay for the drinks, date, etc., just know what you’re paying for. What has worth is worth paying for – is she worth the payment? You are the Prince, your attentions have value, does she appreciate them? Have a plan, make the decisions, direct the course of the date. If she’s unresponsive or only luke warm in her reciprocation – NEXT! Hypergamy makes ALL women opportunists by order of degree; accept that, it’s simply how the world works. Golddiggers are women who overtly acknowledge this opportunism in word and behavior; they’re not too hard to recognize if you want to see them.
You’ll know more about her the morning after you bang her brains out than you ever will on a casual, comfy dinner date.
I want you to want me
,..but, Rollo I want it to be because of who I am, not what I can pay for.
This is an uncomfortable truth, and a lot of guys don’t like to hear it, but your capacity to pay is PART of who you are.
Your accomplishments, your career, your passions, your aspirations, your physique, are all PART of you. There are parts of you that are more attractive than others, but the sum is what makes you who you are. There was a thread on the SoSuave forum a week ago regarding career choices and how this relates to life and women etc. I realize this may be an unpopular opinion on this, but what you choose to do as a vocation is part of who you are. It may not be your source of personal identity, but for better or worse, your vocation and it’s associations become a part of your identity. It’s similar to how you look physically is part of you. It’s a comfortable fiction to think that women are less interested in a man’s physique, or should be attracted to a guy unbiased by what he does – but these are all part of a whole.
Your Grandfather never pondered whether he or your then-to-be Grandmother would get the bill; it wasn’t even an afterthought. He payed the tab and Grandma was appreciative. And that’s what’s at issue – appreciation. Feminization has stacked the deck against a guy to the point where he questions a woman’s motives. Does she appreciate his generosity or does she feel entitled to it?
Never bothered me to pick up a drink or even a dinner early on, but the difference is that the biggest cost to going out with a new gal is my time, not my money. While I rarely throw money at a woman and no woman I date ever know what I am worth or not worth, if I think she’s pretty enough and I want to test her femininity, a drink or a small meal it is — but the 1-2 hours of my time invested is worth way more than $10 or $50 or what-not. I never buy… Read more »
I will pay for coffee or the first drink, but never her share of our first dinner out or activity/entertainment. I do this for a few reasons. I want to see her reaction. Did she expect me to pay? Did she feel that sense of entitlement and was it taken away from her? How does she respond? Overtly? Whining? Shaming? Any of those and it’s a sure NEXT. I want to set expectations. If I do pay for her in the future it’s because I’m rewarding her for good behaviour, not because I feel obligated to. I do it because… Read more »
“This is an uncomfortable truth, and a lot of guys don’t like to hear it, but your capacity to pay is PART of who you are.”
Distilled truth here. Should be common sense, but in these times…
This – like everything is all about frame – If the first thing a girl says to you is, “buy me a drink” then you’re screwed for doing so and playing into her frame. Contrast this to telling a woman you’ll be at this restaurant at this time and she’s welcome to join you if she wants, then paying for her meal.
Paying is a sign of strength when it’s done in a proactive or expected-of-yourself type attitude, whereas it’s the sign of a chump if done as a reaction or fulfilling an expectation of hers.
When I dated, I always initially paid. If a woman later wanted to offer a round, I would protest a little but let her pay if she insisted. What I found was that I’d spend a little money, get laid, and then she’d start offering to pay for things half the time to keep me around. Today I’m married, and even though we both earn money, I still “pay” when we go out. In fact, if my wife happens to have the cash on her, she’ll slip it to me under the table so that her husband is still the… Read more »
these days i find that waitstaff tend to put the check in a neutral area of the table, rather than in front of the man or woman.
lol fuck this is going backwards. What’s next? “Actually it’s alpha to marry a girl and you should always let her do anything she wants.”
You can rationalize paying however you like but at the end of the day you’re spending money that you don’t need to spend. If I’m walking to the store up the street I COULD walk In circles around a few buildings and climb over a tree before i finally get there…but why not just walk straight to it?
Treat them like your friends. Would you pay for a friend’s lunch if y’all went out? How about his/her drinks when you are at the club? Screw that noise. Paying for things died with the feminist movement. Yes, time is money, but money is money, too. Why waste it on some cunt? Especially, when you can find women who don’t care about paying their way — game must be good, though.
@Tanner .. well said. It’s all about framing ala the Golden Rule .. whoever has the gold gets to make the rules.
“What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.” T. Paine Like that book [i]Influence[/i] says, people usually place a higher value on things that are harder to obtain. It might work as a general rule but it’s exploitable as hell as a tool to manipulate people. And fuck that chivalry crap. I love it when they play that card like a comic welcomes the totally predictability of a drunken heckler: it’s a chance to riff off a powerful theme that even the most brain dead woman can’t or won’t… Read more »
As I’ve expressed on a few occasions; as a man in this life, you will ALWAYS pay for sex in one form or another. That may be buying coffee, drinks, dinner, a concert ticket, a wedding ring or a mortgage payment, but always trust that there is going to be a cost associated with you and sex. Whether it’s with your nebulous ‘Quality Woman’ or the prostitute you picked up off the Trail for half an hour – you’re going to pay. I agree that sex is a commodity that on the whole men pay for, but I quibble with… Read more »
As with many other things, it isn’t the action, it’s what the action conveys. If the act of buying something conveys that you are a needy chump who has to use his money to purchase affection, you’re dead in the water. If the act conveys that you are a man of power who enjoys having a good time while being surrounded by people who bring value to his life and has the means to keep people entertained, that’s a completely different story. I know this will rile up the PUA brigade but some men actually enjoy making and spending money.… Read more »
There are many game advocates who agree with this principle. If you like Sushi, it’s pointless to avoid taking the girl out to an “expensive” sushi dinner, just to avoid sending signals of spending money on her. Don’t let her get in the way of eating what you’d eat anyway. Go out and eat your sushi, and let her come along. If the cost of the meal is a genuine hardship and you’d not spend that money independently of purchasing sex, then you’ll be subconsciously be sending out the “wrong kind” of provider signals. Provider signals are fine. Attractive, actually.… Read more »
On an early date with my current girl and her dorm room friend, here in Indonesia where there are less feminist expectations, I pulled this stunt: at the end of the meal I told her “You pay”. She was shocked and in disbelief. “No really – you pay”. The student girl had very little money given to her in her monthly allowance, and even paying for a lunch at a roadside stall was a minor hardship. She politely pretended not to put off by my demand. After she paid I exclaimed “Aha! You paid! That means you love me!” Then… Read more »
As said in the comments, it can depend on maintaining your owning the frame of the interaction. However, it can easily spin into anti-game, such as if one over-pays because he’s an AFC or has an inaccurate perception of worth then it just contributes to the current over-inflated pussy bubble where AFC guys think they have to pay a lot and girls think they are entitled to being bought for the highest price (aside from regular girls, even fat hookers now have raise their prices up to $500 and they aint no cute bubble butts either – just round as… Read more »
I have a system set up that maintains my favorite dynamic.
At the end of the meal, I’ll hand the girl my wallet and instruct her to pay. Or if she is a live in, I’ll occasionally give her household spending money, which she will use for our expenses when we go out.
I don’t like to be bothered with the details of handling money. I prefer my attendant to care for me.
In this way she is the one performing the gestures of paying, and I am the one providing.
This topic has been covered here or over at the Chateau before and I recall a commenter referencing a post about this on In Mala Fide. I can’t recall if I ever found the original, but I agree with the commenters take on it. First of all, particularly if you are older and have money and are dating younger women then you should pay.If you are in your 40’s making a few hundred a year and are dating a 27 y.o. “administrative assistant” then nothing would scream beta chump more than expecting her to pay half of a 100 dollar… Read more »
If you’re going to pay, you pay like it’s no big fucking deal. Because it shouldn’t be. You get into all sorts of trouble when you look at her while paying, hesitate for the check, do the double pump, whatever. As if you’re trying to guage some kind of feedback or reaction from her, or fishing for gratefulness or some kind of reciprocation. When you’re at a restaurant you invited her out to, you pick up the check without an afterthought, resuming wherever you were at in your conversation. When you’re at the bar and want a shot, you tell… Read more »
This is what I intuitively figured out one day. I told a girl we should meet up for lunch at work, which means we’d have to pay with our Id cards. Then when we actually met, I said, “Looks, let’s get something good to eat. Let’s go to a restaurant” She looked at me a bit embarrassed and said, “Well, I didn’t actually bring my wallet… I thought I’d get to pay with my Id card!” I knew what to do. I said “Ok. Doesn’t matter. Let’s go”, and got going and then changed subjects. I brought her to the… Read more »
you are getting some shots, and does she want one too*
Flyfresh my man,
You said it exactly, in a lot fewer words than me……..
Ha kind of skipped the wall of text, man.
But, great minds think alike.
Huh…weird, these guys don’t seem to be paying. Maybe you’re doing it wrong lol:
(most of the vids have more footage spliced in throughout the speaking parts so watch the entire vids or you’ll miss out on some good stuff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO_A7M0pesg I wonder how much the cover charge to talk to girls on the street cost these guys. My favorite part of the video is where they bought all those drinks and shots and dinner for the girls from the bartender on the street corner. Oh no wait, none of that happened. They spent nothing but a few hours of flirting. Although I guess the Dragonball Z costume probably cost some money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_4EUvnURs At 2:50 into this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1hLhtk3KA?t=2m50s I love where he pulled out his wallet and rifled through all the money in it to get that chick to… Read more »
Holy shit, dude, you’re a genius.
You might be the first person on this thread that you don’t have to spend money on girls, or that if you might happen to spend some money while out, it’s not to impress girls.
Some people’s obsession with not spending a dime on a girl is borderline socially retarded. Have your fun, bring her along for the ride. And god help you if it costs a couple dollars for a shot or something while you’re partying.
[…] topic was once again touched on over at Rollo’s “Free Lunch“. I’ll bring up one of my comments, because I think this issue is pretty simple: If […]
Great topic and discussion in the comments
My last date was with a blond (7.5 on the scale, a “5” on my reference guide body wise)
I ended up paying for her two drinks and the total bill came too $33, I never got a 2nd date.
I got a new rule for 2012. I don’t take chicks out on dates that are below 7’s. I learned my lesson
^^it’s good to keep track of how much you spend and the outcome sometimes
So now you’re pedastalizing chicks who are better looking by taking them out on dates?
A girl is a girl is a girl. Treat them all the same
whats the point of taking out a chick who is a 5 on a date?
The thing isn’t about pedastalizing but simply me raising my standards
Solo whats the point of taking any chick on a date before you’ve banged her? Dating is dead hombre.
No matter how good looking she is
My philosophy is always to bring a chick to the house ASAP. Whether she is hot or not but that’s not realistic. If you meet a woman online, or only talked to her for 5 minutes at the bar. It’s gonna be tough to get her to your place right away.Can it be done? of course it can. I’ve done it plenty times but game isn’t black or white. Their still various shades of gray. There are gonna be girls who aren’t gonna be down to hang out at my place. Does that mean every date has to be a… Read more »
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