Shacking Up

Iron Rule of Tomassi #4
NEVER under any circumstance live with a woman you aren’t married to or are not planning to marry in within 6 months.

You are utterly powerless in this situation. NEVER buy a home with a girlfriend, NEVER sign a rental lease with a girlfriend. NEVER agree to move into her home and absolutely NEVER move a woman into your own established living arrangement. I’m adamantly opposed to the “shacking up” dynamic, it is a trap that far too many men allow themselves to fall into. My fervor against this isn’t based on some moral issue, it is simple pragmatism. If you live with a woman you may as well be married because upon doing so every liability and accountability of marriage is then in effect. You not only lose any freedom of anonymity, you commit to, legally, being responsible for the continuation of your living arrangements regardless of how your relationship decays.

I should also emphasize the point that when you commit (and it is a financial commitment) to cohabiting with a GF you will notice a marked decrease in her sexual availability and desire. The single most common complaint related to me in regards to how to reignite a woman’s desire comes as the result of the guy having moved into a living arrangement with his LTR. All of that competitive anxiety and it’s resulting sexual tension that made your single sex life so great is removed from her shoulders and she can comfortably relax in the knowledge that she is your ONLY source of sexual intimacy. Putting your name on that lease with her (even if it’s just your name) is akin to signing an insurance policy for her –

“I the undersigned promise not to fuck any woman but this girl for a one year term.”

She thinks, “if he wasn’t serious about me, he wouldn’t have signed the lease.” Now all of that impetus and energy that made having marathon sex with you an outright necessity is relaxed. She controls the frame and she’s got it in writing that it is for at least a year.

Just don’t do it. Relationships last best when you spin more plates or at the very least keep each other at arm’s distance.

There was a time when the hip, counter-culture thing to do was flip the establishment the bird and cohabit with a girlfriend, sans the marriage contract. In the swinging post-sexual-revolution 70’s, feminism was more than happy to encourage the idea until it ran into the problem of making men financially accountable for all the “free milk” the cows were giving away. However, that not withstanding, there’s still a kind of a lingering after effect feeling about “living together” that seems like a good idea to guys to this day.

Of all the reasonable excuses I’ve heard for men wanting to cohabit with their girlfriends, the most common is that they did so for financial reasons. He (or she) needed a roommate and why not one that they enjoy fucking? That’s the cover story, but underneath it there’s the semiconscious understanding that it would be far more convenient to have a continuous flow of pussy as part of the utilities, uninterrupted by the formalities of having to go on dates or drive somewhere to get it. I can’t say that, on the surface, this doesn’t make perfect sense. Leave it a man to find the most pragmatic solution to his problem. However, as with most things woman, what seems like the most deductive solution is often a cleverly disguised trap.

Shacking up, just as in marriage, affords a woman a reasonable sense of comfort. It becomes at least a marginal shelter from the competition anxiety that she had to endure while living on her own and dating a guy who still had at least the perceived option to be unpredictable. Not so in the quasi-marriage that living together dictates. And it’s just this sense of predictability that allows her to relax into familiarity, and later, into dictating the terms of her own intimacy. In other words, she’s in the perfect position to ration her sexuality; to negotiate the terms of her desire in exchange for a living arrangement.

By the same reasoning, most AFCs view cohabiting as an ideal arrangement. Few of them really have the real options, much less the will to experiment exercising them, to see shacking up as anything but a great way of exiting the SMP, limiting potential rejection, and locking down a consistent supply of pussy. Men who are spinning plates, men with options, men with ambition, rarely see cohabiting as anything but a limiting hinderance on their lives. On some level of consciousness women understand this dynamic; guys with options (the Alphas they’d prefer) wouldn’t consider cohabitation. So when a man agrees to, or suggests living together it impresses her with two things – either he’s an Alpha who she’s won over so completely that he’s ready to commit to exclusivity with her, or he’s a beta with no better propositions than to settle into living with what he believes is his ‘sure thing’. What’s jarring for a woman is that she may start her living arrangement thinking she’s found the elusive Alpha ready to commit, only to later find he was just a clever beta who reverts back into his former, comfortable, AFC self after they sign the lease agreement.

Now all that said, what makes more sense? To live independently and enjoy the options to live unhindered with a live-in girlfriend, or move her in and have to deal with her every waking moment? Moving in with a woman implies commitment, and whenever you commit to anything you lose your two most valuable resources, options and the ability to maneuver.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

58 comments on “Shacking Up

  1. I shacked up a couple of times, the personality of the girls did a 180 degrees turn and he relationships died painfully and slowly.

    If I moved with my current girlfriend Im sure the relationship would end within a week. She keeps hinting how good it would be to rent a shared house and buy a common car though. L-O-L.

    1. “I shacked up a couple of times, the personality of the girls did a 180 degrees turn and he relationships died painfully and slowly.”


      “If I moved with my current girlfriend Im sure the relationship would end within a week. She keeps hinting how good it would be to rent a shared house and buy a common car though.”

      I’ve only slept with my new notch once and she has already asked if I have any plans to move to London. Ha ha!

      No, I’ve learned my lesson there. If I don’t get to relax around the woman I live with then I won’t be living with her.

      @Rollo: I’m not sure why marriage + moving in is better than just moving in. Could you elaborate on that?

  2. Since i’m living with my girlfriend, I’m probably just talking my book, but here goes anyway.

    I think that it is possible to have a live in that you game correctly. The corollary to your proposition is that it is impossible to ever live with or commit to a woman and keep her in her place…which I don’t think is true.

    Roissy had several good posts on this matter a while back and I took those to heart.

    I continue to game her. I continue to let her know that I have options, because I do. I continue to keep myself in shape, attractive, stylish, fit and out in target rich environments.

    I keep a clear frame that this is my place, she is living in my apartment and if/when things every end, she is moving out – and quickly.

    I have threatened to send her away to her friend’s or sister’s apartment for the night when she was acting up. She knows that I consider tossing her into the street as an option.

    My discussions with her much of the manosphere material also keeps her in line. she understands the nature of the SMP. she also understands that she is in her prime and only going to go down hill, whereas I continue to age well. (she 25 me 35).

    Whether warranted or not, I indirectly shame her with respect to her sexual past. she knows that adding me to the list and this living together experience only makes her lower value should she have another stint on the market.

    She knows very well my position on marriage and how fucked up it is.

    And for my particular situation, I already have kids from a prior marriage so I have no real need/urgency to ‘move things along.’

    Either she keeps with the program or she gets tossed.

    We’ve been together over a year now, living together for four months officially and many more unofficially before that. And in the last 48 hours we’ve had sex 7 times including a lunch time nooner where I picked her up from work, took her to an isolated parking lot, pulled her skirt up, undies down and fucked her on the trunk of my car.

    And with that respectful submission, I posit that it is absolutely possible to shack up and keep banging happily.

    1. The question still remains, why move in with her in the first place? I’m not suggesting that Game isn’t effective within the parameters of an LTR or marriage, but how are you benefiting by living together in ways you couldn’t living apart?

      1. well, I do enjoy her company and I like having her here all the time. I like her not having to leave every morning to go home and I like her being here whenever I get back. I’m also happy to deepen the connection and the time.

        And ultimately, she’s paying for half the shit. So I saw it as: I can either go on this way with her basically living here all the time or:

        Someone (her) is going to pay me $18,000 per year to see if I like living with her. If it doesn’t work out, I boot her. If it does, then sweet!

      2. but how are you benefiting by living together in ways you couldn’t living apart?

        I live with my GF, and first thing that pops to mind is economies of scale. Rent, cable, electric, any other joint expenses are being spread over two incomes instead of one. If I were living alone, I’d still have those same fixed expenses. That leaves me extra discretionary income for fun, and more to trade with.

        1. I’ll add a few more benefits of living together versus living apart. Having my breakfast and dinner prepared just about every night. Having my lunch packed for me every day, and having all my grocery shopping done. Lots of little things, but over the course of a week it adds up and frees up time for me to do other things that are a better use of my time.

  3. In most states, legally sharing an address with a person of the opposite sex for more than 30 days causes you to be commonlaw married in the eyes of the law. In some states, Utah comes to mind–if you spend the night with someone, it’s considered a commonlaw marriage! So if you’re swooping in Salt Lake, gotta duck out before dawn.

    Also, if you DO insist on putting that gun to your head by getting married, a Dartmouth university study a few years back actually shows a HIGHER rate of divorce in those who lived together before marriage.

    Personal experience: in graduate school, I was living in one of the most expensive cities in the country, and despite working as many hours as I could, I couldn’t make ends meet. I was getting evicted, and my fiance at the time offered for me to move in. I did so hesitatingly, and of course it blew up. At least I got to finish school, and the added bonus of dodging that marriage bullet. Come to think of it, not getting married was probably the biggest benefit.

    1. no, only 11 states still contract common law marriage (although all states do recognize common law marriages contracted in those 11 states).

      and even in those 11 states, the couple still needs to present themselves as husband and wife. this is one of the requirements necessary to establish a common law marriage contract.

      so merely shacking up with somebody isn’t enough.

      obviously, don’t do stupid shit like cosign a loan, but that’s just common sense.

    2. According to the official word of Utah, “Utah does not have common law marriage; instead, you may petition the court to recognize your relationship as a marriage even though you never had a marriage ceremony.” Consent is required from both parties, so it’s not like a girlfriend or one night stand could marry you against your will.

  4. I lived with a girlfriend for a couple of years, and it was as Rollo describes: a gradual turn-off of sex, a gradual turn-on of complaints. What’s worse, I knew it was a bad idea before I did it. In a weak moment, I promised to move in with her if her roommate ever moved out–assuming that event was safely in the far-away future. Lo and behold, a month later the roommate moved out and the girlfriend asked ‘what was I going to do?’. So, I made what I thought was the principled decision, sticking to my promise and not listening to my gut. Now, I’m sure she had more than an inkling that the roommate would move out, but at the time I was oblivious, and anyway I thought being a man of my word was more important than my happiness.

    There was also the temptation of having sex without so much drama, just having a comfortable life as my ancestors did. Now my eyes are open and I know that in this day and age and country, a sexual life will have drama and if I don’t provide it on my own terms, the woman will force it on me on her terms. But there’s a happy ending: Desperation drove me first to cheating on her, then to leaving her and finally to my waking up.

  5. “If you live with a woman you may as well be married because upon doing so every liability and accountability of marriage is then in effect.”

    Absolutely wrong. You still own 100% of your stuff (i.e. if you own a house it remains yours) and you keep 100% of your salary if you split up.

    Divorce is a hell of a lot worse than breaking up with a girlfriend.

  6. This is the first post of yours that I disagree with Rollo.

    If you are to make the case that cohabitation is “dangerous” to a man’s sex life, where does that leave marriage? If a 1 year lease is a serious commitment, what is a marriage contract?

    The principles of masculinity apply to ANY relationship. You must maintain a dominant frame or you will get your balls handed to you. The more leverage she has (living together, marriage, comfort in your words and actions) the more important it is to maintain hand. Marriage doesn’t isolate you from this, and I would argue that cohabitation is a MUCH MUCH MUCH better option than marriage.

    I have lived with three different women. With two of these women the sex was hot and heavy throughout the entire relationship. The third one I was growing less and less attracted to as time went on, and this was the only girl I have ever been happy about breaking up with so even though the sex declined, it was mutual.

    Now, if we were to compare the positive influences on a relationship of living with a woman versus living separately, the choice is clear- from a desire standpoint it is much better to have some distance. The best relationship I ever had was with a girl who lived about 30 minutes away. She would stay with me on the weekends and go home to her parents house weekdays. (I didn’t consider this to be cohabitation) Anyway, this was perfect because we were always glad to see each other. The sex was phenomenal. I had my space and she had hers.

    I’ll take one of these kinds of arrangements over marriage ANY day of the week.

  7. Now that I’m living alone again, I am absolutely loving it. I have my motorcycle, my dog, and my Internet connection.

    Women visit and sleep over, of course. But they are gone by the next day leaving me to enjoy my motorcycle, my dog, and my Internet connection.

    The “stay over relationship” would seem to be the best for men of any age.

  8. I’m not sure why marriage + moving in is better than just moving in. Could you elaborate on that?

    I suppose I should qualify this a little more. Obviously in terms of long term risk, marriage holds a lot more for a man to lose both materially and in a life opportunities respect. However, try not to think of this essays as a promotion of marriage in favor of cohabiting, so much as it is a comparison to a married lifestyle.

    From the guys I’ve counseled who were trying to make the ‘living together’ work, everyone of them complained that they bought into a bait & switch deal with a woman who’d gone from being an enthusiastic lay while single, to a comfortable asexual rationing out sex commensurate with his complaining about her lack of libido.

    The comparison I’m drawing is that the liabilities in terms of a man’s actionable options are not much different than being married. Yes, there’s a better way of making a split, but the responsibilities a guy assumes while in a cohabiting are virtually the same – he’s accountable to a woman he’s confirmed as his only source of sex. Your Game may vary, but I doubt a guy would be willing to assume a living arrangement where these accountabilities were a given with the foreknowledge that the reward (him getting regular sex) would gradually diminish from levels that were more sustainable while he was single and unencumbered by a solitary woman.

    Caveat emptor, buyer beware. I’m amazed at how readily guys who eschew marriage will still bear similar personal limitations in a cohabiting arrangement.

    1. I’ve never had sex diminish after moving a girl in. It’s an arrangement that I’m so comfortable and confident in that setup that that I’ve OFTEN moved girls in on the first date. Passion and sex life was always strong, with a few girls regularly giving blow jobs in taxi cabs, and most girls being in a near constant froth. Of the last 5 girls that I seriously dated 5 lived with me. The current has been with me for 5 months and we are passionate and in love and every day is better than the last. The previous was with me for five months before she freaked that I was not monogamous. Before that 1 year before the girl died – and we were very close, extremely sexual, and very happy. Before that 2.5 years before I got bored and left. The sex and blowjobs were always frequent and on demand. Before that 6 months with some girl who wasn’t of importance, but we got along fine. Before that it was an average of 4 hours a day of sex with a hottie I lived with for a year.

      So you can maintain sexual passion with a live in. It can be a fine arrangement, if you know what you’re doing.

  9. So, there are two types of sites, Game and MRA sites.

    Game sites are more about the individual relating with women, while MRA sites face the problem from a social and legal perspective.

    This post shows how they intersect, in the case this was necessary. The topic of marriage is analyzed and eviscerated by any MRA site like The Spearhead, being a social contract.

    The classic verdict is negative, today men have only to lose in Western countries from marriage, women lose their physical beauty and good behavior, men lose freedom and gain a much more demanding financial burden, men lose the few human rights they had in regard to childs, property, domestic violence accusation and cheating from the bored wife, now a fat whale who dreams eat pray and love and shining vampyres. Etc.

    As someone has already commented, it is not clear to me too why this post should apply to LTR more than marriage. From an individual perspective they are very similar.

    Notice the comments steer towards legal considerations: men have understood the damages of marriage, feminists with their collectivist governments reacted considering marriage anything involving a man and a woman, like one nights, in the clear purpose of continuing milking the cow of the male productivity.

  10. I enjoy posts like this, for the simple reason that they invigorate the discussion. Great comments too.

  11. So interesting Rollo! and as I think about it, probably great advice for women, too, in many of the same ways, but some different ones, too.

    For one, living apart but being in a relationship for an extended time seems like a very effective way to weed out men who have no housekeeping skills llz if only I had known #sillywoman

  12. feh.. i’m living with my girlfriend.. however i’m making sure i follow the roissy maxim of “instilling dread”. i make sure she sees the hot friend girls i have on my friends list. i have them call me occasionally to check on me etc. chicks may try to rule the roost.. but the rooster with options always wins.

    1. Yes, it’s possible to instill dread while living with a girl. A little relationship brinksmanship here, a little letting her see girls sending you flirtations text messages there, and a general unrepentent bad boy attitude can keep her on just the precise amount of edge that you want her to be on.

  13. Maybe this is one thing that I have always done right in my relationships, but not one time have I been in an LTR (live-in or otherwise) where I wasn’t satisfied with the quantity and quality of the sex all the way through the relationship.

    I just can’t wrap my head around the idea of being with with a chick who is stingy with the sex. If some chick tried to use sex as a bargaining chip or even slowed down the pace to an unacceptable level she’d be gone in a minute. Maybe my attitude toward this was apparent to all of the women I have been with and it created enough anxiety to keep them in check, but I just can’t fathom something like this happening to me.

    If she isn’t WILLINGLY fucking your brains out you’re doing it wrong.

  14. I’ve been seeing my girl for over a year, and living with her for the last 5 months. She seems to be getting hornier every week.

    Mind you, she started out an asexual virgin, but still.

    She was one of two main girls in the early days of seeing her, and when one girl moved out of my apartment she performed a stealth move in – “visiting” every night.

    We are quite happy together now, fuck often, and she is my personal slave. I had her quit her job just to do everything I say when I say it.

    Mind you I consider myself a very experienced male, and have had many live in girlfriends. I’m not clumsy about what to do, and know what I want and how to get it.

    It’s working. So that must mean that it can work.

  15. I only lived with 3 women in my life. All ended badly.

    The first 2 lasted no longer than 3 months, and the third, who I ended up marrying, recently ended in divorce.

    I can somewhat understand moving in with a woman if its very convenient and its not too serious. If thats the case, then no great loss when it ends. But believe me, familiarity breeds contempt, and her listening to your snoring and you smelling her shit after she goes poo will quickly overcome the sweet novelty of you waking up in each others arms.

    Off topic, but why do so many guys write complaining about cupcake not giving up the goods when it gets into a committed relationship ? Hell, I get tired of fucking the same ol same ol after 6 months max. It’s hard for me to comprehend these guys in long term relationships who write complaining about not getting any from a woman they been married to for years and years. Its like reading last weeks newspaper.

  16. Can being on the pill contribute to lack of libido? When you trust each other so much you ditch the condoms and she gets on the pill instead, you might also move in together. One of the side effects CAN BE loss of sex drive.

  17. I’m a little confused..
    “I doubt a guy would be willing to assume a living arrangement where these accountabilities were a given with the foreknowledge that the reward (him getting regular sex) would gradually diminish from levels that were more sustainable while he was single and unencumbered by a solitary woman.”

    Do people go from single to living together immediately? Wouldn’t they be in a LTR prior to cohabitation? Doesn’t a LTR imply exclusivity and some extent of commitment? I understand options don’t diminish upon entering a relationship, but are you encouraging that a guy dates multiple women, cheats, while he is in a committed relationship? Or are you simply saying that he should maintain some elusiveness that suggests the possibility he may have women elsewhere? Just so we’re clear, I don’t want to assume really. But I do agree that the mystique in a relationship will be completely ruined shorty after moving in with a significant other whom you’re not planning to marry soon after or are currently married to. Also, it certainly does provide the woman in the relationship way too much room to become complacent.

  18. Dear Rollo,

    first of all, a big thanks for the time and effort you put into your blog. Of all PU/Game blogs, it’s the most informative, since you offer a lot of bio-psychological explanations for all the things we experience everyday in interpersonal relations. For me as a molecular biologist with high interest in evolutionary roots of human behaviour, your blog “goes deep under the surface”…

    In your entry “Shacking up”, you strongly discourage men from living together with a women – and I fully agree to that. As a 33y.o. guy in a happy relationship with separate flats, I would like you to elaborate a bit more on that topic. Getting kids is definitely not something I am afraid of, but living together with a women definitely is. Just thinking about it already feels wrong since -similar to you- I see it as a huge loss of male power as well as attractivity in the relationship. You wrote in another post, that you have a daughter, which would make your perspective on “how to do” even more interesting.

    Moreover, I wonder how to deal with the genuine frustration a women gets, if you are not willing to move together. Do you see a way of convincing a women that you genuinely love her (which is true in my case), but nevertheless don’t want to live together ?
    Women understandably see a lack of commitment here and in my case, despite her loving me insanely, she doubts my family potential, if I am not willing to live together.

    I’d highly appreciate you posting some more thoughts on this topic.

  19. Getting into a relationship should be considered seriously not just by one but both partners. Always discuss your expectations and meet halfway on things that you disagree with because there will always be disagreements.

    Cloud-9 relationships don’t last long. It all starts well until someone figures out the great differences between the two of them. Thus starts the epic battle of the “sexes in the same roof”. A battle that can last for ages or just a short time depending on how both prepared for it.

    Long blog post but I love it.

  20. Rollo,

    I could use your take on this hypothetical situation. Say you are in an exclusive relationship for 1yr+, living seperately, and you are going to move for a job. The relationship is great and you want it to continue this way. The options on the table are she either moves with you or you two end things. If she moves with you, you will be living together for 1yr and you will be the breadwinner while she takes over domestic duties and continues some education. After the 1yr together you two would move back to your original location and would have to decide to either continue living together or going back to seperate places.

    Would this work? Disaster waiting to happen? Avoid totally and just end things?

  21. There is huge potential of -hello- getting the GF PREGNANT when living together, which really is worse than a marriage you can end easily (kidless). This happened to us 30 odd years ago, we did the “right thing” and are the last couple married in our families. I told our kids DO NOT SHACK UP, they did, and my daughter got pregnant practically overnight – no marriage for her, he was a bum. My wife and I have a precious 9 year old now we co-raise and the daughter is finally about to move out. Sheesh! Nobody listens, they all have to make their own stupid mistakes.

  22. Which reminds me, if your primary directive is banging a new chickita every night, and I would too mind you, get it snipped so there will be no oops, no debit on your paycheck every month to the state of “I F’d up,” and not another child wondering why his daddy doesn’t visit on the holidays. That or use a fake name and a burner phone – works for me.

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  25. Late post here, new to Red Pill…
    Another data point to co-habit laws: Up here in Quebec, Canada co-habiting incurs *no-legal-obligation*. I just walked out of a 28-year co-habit and besides agreeing to child expenses and buying back my half of the house, no cash and prizes were awarded. No lawyers or judges.
    There was a recent court case on this subject a few years ago – a local billionaire paid a cash award to his young co-habit live-in girlfriend (Lived together for 20 years if I remember correctly) to get rid of her. She wasn’t happy with the amount and to him to court and lost – the law here is very clear.

  26. This is good advice. It reminds me of a psycho g/f I had years ago. She spent the night at my house one day, and refused to go back to her house. She got crazier and crazier, and I could not get her out of my house. I was concerned about calling the police to get her our because I knew about the Duluth model. I finally had my sister help her move her stuff out. My sister nearly took a punch for me when she stepped between me and a raging psycho. Without another female present, I’m sure the neighbors would have called the cops when they heard her screaming like a maniac. Keep women out of your house until you have many months to know they are sane, and you are ready for a long term commitment.

  27. gimme a break.

    I shacked it up once.

    Her apartments. her dollars. Her invitation.
    Sex was plentiful. plennnnntiful. Why? BECAUSE SHE ACTUALLY ENJOYED SEX. IMagine that, eh?

    Why would you care about fucking a bunch of women when most of them aren’t even worthy of a KISS? What kind of insensitive man-slut would even consider ‘playing the field’ to be desirable? someone who is shallow. That’s IT!

    This article is like a giant cynical turd. Not worth swallowing.

  28. @radium isn’t it crazy how a bitch can feel entitled to stay forever after just 1 night? I had a similar situation once. This girl would not leave and when I forced her to leave she would threaten to not come back and be banging on my door the nxt night at 1-2am…lol psycho!

    Besides this however the sex was plentiful! Actually every woman I have ever lived with made it a priority to keep my balls empty, sometimes to my own exhaustion. So I can’t agree on the sex dissapearing but I agree that your power and freedom will take a hit, and the woman even if more sexually available will feel she has more say in your life. SHACK UP WITH CAUTION!

  29. Still transitioning from blue to red… (still heavily blue)

    What’s the best way to extract oneself from a relationship (not married) where I am the one living in her place and want to end it/move out?

    Do I up and leave with no explanation and no contact? Take all of my stuff when she departs on her next business trip and she comes home to her house minus me and my stuff?

  30. It’s an interesting post and I understand the points against living together, but what about getting to know her really well, before actually considering proposing?

    I’m 32 and exclusive with a girl for a year and since the moment she became my gf, I’ve noticed slightly smaller sex drive on her part (some of heirtiste’s dread ideas helped me a lot in those situations). Right now I’m considering letting her move in with me (she pushed for it for some time) – I’d still be leasing the apartment and if it doesn’t work out, I’ll just kick her out.

    I would like to have children some day and this girl seems like a good material for mother of my kids (at least right now she does). The only good reason for the marriage for me is creating strong, old-fashioned family and being good, masculine example for the kids. I’m not from US, so in case of divorce I wouldn’t be raped, though it would hurt financially obviously. I’m aware of the women strategy and I’m not saying that she’s some special snowflake, but I would like to get to know her better before/if ever I’ll consider proposing.

    If she has a Dark Passenger that she’s been hiding for me, I’d like to be aware of that before the marriage than after – cause in that case I wouldn’t even consider proposing. And I’ve always thought that during living together with a woman, it’s really difficult for her (thought obviously not impossible) to hide all the nasty shit.

    Diminished sex drive is still better solution than dealing with some serious shit after you’re married IMO.

  31. @Apollo

    Rollo considered a lot of factors into his original essay. The essay only provides 10% of the full story.

    The prime factor he discusses is Your Mental Point of Origin and Your Frame. She should be a complement to your life not the focus of it. In other words, she should come into your Frame and how you see things and be respectful of you (if you are respectable), you shouldn’t lean into her Frame to appease her unless you know what you are doing and you want to.

    Every other sentence from you is you being in her Frame. What you say makes logical sense to you and other males. It makes logical sense to me in a Blue Pill world, but not with Red Pill Awareness. With Red Pill Awareness, you should be able to read her, understand her and know her without moving in with her.

    Keep in mind: moving in with her also lets her read you. It also lets her manipulate you for commitment including marriage and children whether you want that or not. Nothing wrong with that unless you don’t have indomitable masculine frame from the start. You have to have indomitable masculine frame on entering the relationship. And keep it that way during the relationship. (And that’s what she wants and that is better for her in the long run.)

    The statements below by you are leaning in to her Frame and her controlling bit by bit, your commitment to her and her children. Rather than: “In order to be a husband you must be a constant challenge for your wife and keep a royal relation to her. To be a husband you must:
    – Keep your distance and have an aura in your attitude towards her.
    – Confide your weaknesses and insecurity to your male friends. A wife was not created for this. When your time for dying will come you have to face it alone.
    – Tell her clearly that you are with her but you expect respect and a good treatment, otherwise the contract is terminated.”
    (From the link I provided at the end).

    Perhaps you could go read the Original Essay here, without keeping yourself as the reference point and reflect on the why nots’ that Rollo provided. And think of how you can keep your Mental Point of Origin and Frame to where she follows your lead.

    You getting to know her better is also tantamount to her being able to Betatize you for her benefit and the benefit of her future children. . This is not a bad thing per se, but it can be the beginning of some bad manipulation by her, of you.

    (BTW, how old is she?)

    Your burden of performance is to lead, lead and then lead some more.

    – The more you are in an Alpha, royal position and a challenge for her, the more she will admire and respect you and her sexual desire towards you will stay at high levels.” (From the link I provided at the end)

    Right now I’m considering letting her move in with me (she pushed for it for some time)…

    The only good reason for the marriage for me is creating strong, old-fashioned family and being good, masculine example for the kids….

    I’m aware of the women strategy and I’m not saying that she’s some special snowflake, but I would like to get to know her better before/if ever I’ll consider proposing….

    If she has a Dark Passenger that she’s been hiding for me, I’d like to be aware of that before the marriage than after – cause in that case I wouldn’t even consider proposing….

    And I’ve always thought that during living together with a woman, it’s really difficult for her (thought obviously not impossible) to hide all the nasty shit…

    Diminished sex drive is still better solution than dealing with some serious shit after you’re married IMO….

    Rollo wrote in his second book under the chapter Mental Point of Origin:

    There is a ‘first thought’ balance we have to maintain in a pro-social respect in order to develop healthy relationships. The problem we run into today is one in which boys are (largely) raised to be the men who provide more than they need in order to establish a future family. That learned, conditioned, mental point of origin is almost always focused outward and onto the people he hopes will reciprocate by placing him as their own point of origin.

    Natural feminine solipsism makes this exchange a losing prospect. Women are both raised and affirmed by a vast social mechanism that not just encourages them to put themselves as their mental point of origin, but it shames and ostracizes them for placing it on someone or something other than themselves.

    By now I’m sure that much of this comes off as some encouragement towards a retaliatory selfishness or narcissism, but putting oneself as his own point of origin doesn’t have to mean being anti-social or sociopathic. It requires a conscious decision to override an internalized understanding of oneself, but by placing yourself as your mental point of origin you are better positioned to help others and judge who is worth that effort.

    It often requires some emotional trauma for men to realign themselves as their own point of origin, and I feel this is a necessary part of unplugging, but the real challenge is in how you deal with that trauma in a Red Pill aware state. If you are to kill the Beta in you, the first step is placing yourself as your mental point of origin.

    So there are some things you’ll want to ask yourself:

    Is your first inclination to consider how something in your relationships will affect you or your girlfriend/wife/family/boss?

    When men fall into relationships with authoritarian, feminine-primary women, their first thought about any particulars of their actions is how his woman will respond to it, not his own involvement or his motivations for it. Are you a peacekeeper?

    Do you worry that putting yourself as your own first priority will turn a woman off or do you think it will engage her more fully?

    Are you concerned that doing so may lead to your own form of solipsism, or do you think ‘enlightened self-interests’ serves your best interests and those with whom you want to help or become intimate with?

    Read this for perspective also:

  32. SJF gave you the talking to I would’ve, but just to emphasize it, don’t move her in. Your sexual frequency will decline even more and as easy as it is to think “I’ll just kick her out if things go bad” the truth is you wont and she always has more rights than you in terms of your domestic arrangement.

    At 32 you shouldn’t even be considering a living arrangement. Your SMV peak years are just ahead of you. Why would you want to put the handcuffs on your sex life now?

  33. Apollo

    Part of your reasoning is ostensibly to ‘get with her more’ (as can be read by your sub-comms) and that you are wanting to do this to Vett her better. That’s all good until she starts hiding the vagina (which happens to be a SuperPower she has. And will use. And you will deny she is using it when she is using it). You need to be brutally honest with yourself about this. Brutally honest about your masculine Alpha skills. And her potential ability to use this move-in to lock down your commitment incrementally and more incrementally. For better or for worse. So think about that Hard!

    I’m all for long term relationships and children. I really am. But I’m also well versed in Red Pill. And respect it as a tool for enlightened self-interest and agency. I’m also all about Idealism, but also get that Red Pill’s first job is to teach men not to be Pollyanna-ish.

    Please read the following and post your thoughts:

    read the whole essay, but this is a snippet:

    Quote from that Illimitable Man essay:

    The Power Struggle of Value Exchange:

    Within the dominion of the physical, sexually it is you who acts upon her, but relationally in the domain of the mental, it is she who acts upon you. The “why” pertaining to this dynamic is quite simple. As already mentioned in paragraphs prior she has more needs than you and thus she depends, nay, expects you to fulfil them. As her “significant other” those are the responsibilities that come with unrequited access to her vagina. Of course, should you renege on your responsibilities; you will be framed and shamed as the devil incarnate. Antithetically should she refuse you sexual access? Her body, her choice, the social contract mandates you cannot rape her for not holding up her end of the bargain and so thus you are left powerless with no option but to threaten departure.

    Sex is truly the female dominion of power and it is in this relational battlefield where sex is constantly weaponized, dangled, implied, used as bait and retracted to solidify and ensure your promise of commitment, whilst her promise of sexual access remains tenable and retractable. Many, many women are conscious of the power they have in simply saying “I’m not in the mood” when they are withholding sex as a mechanism to manipulate their man into bending to her will. Naturally, this is the go to nuclear option that women use to manipulate their partners. The male response should of course be: Dread Game.

    (Ed.: Here he refers to Rollo: )

    Bar any tremendous sexual prowess on your part, it is in the female nature to surreptitiously reduce your sexual access whilst she continues to maximise your level of personal investment into her well-being. Effectively, women use sex or the implication of sex strategically to ensure their self-interest in relationships with men. For her to crave your sex and lose the ability to leverage it over you, you must be able to own her like your name is Christian Grey.

    End Quote.

  34. @SJF

    My first instinct when you mentioned that it sounds I’m leaning to her frame was to be defensive, but one of many things RP taught me is to be honest with myself. If you’ve spotted that just by reading my comment, maybe there’s something to it. I will strongly consider that posibility and will analyze my and her behaviour even further.

    You’ve listed some really great points and some ideas I’ve already used on her and they work flawlessly. She’s 25 and she’d been my plate for 6 months, before we were exclusive. She actually responded really well to my actions and even told me few times that she’s kind of ashamed how much she enjoys my dominant behaviour. At the beginning there was some pushback (mosty triggered by opinions of her feminist friends with their “male feminist” boyfriends), but after some time and numerous shit tests passed, she understood that I’m different than chumps she’s dated so far and her usual MO is not going to work with me.

    I haven’t read original essay, so thanks for providing context to the story. And it’s an interesting thought that I shouldn’t need to move in with her to know her really well, I’ll think about it definitely.

    Truth is that using my time for self-development, sarging girls and trying new hobbies is great, but I’ve always had the big picture in mind. Having kids and creating my legacy (as pompous as it sounds) was always purpose of my life. For some it might sound like BP dream, but I don’t care. I have big extended family (they are important to me) and have great relations with all my nephews and nieces. After seeing how my actions impact their little lives, I know that it’s something I’d also want for myself.

    I’m aware that if she became my wife it doesn’t mean that I can told her everything and show her too much vulnerability. I know that I’d need to be on top of my game and would have smaller leeway in the relationship, but I always thought that it’s the risk I have to take to start a family. As I mentioned she seems like a good wife material. I really enjoy her company, sex is amazing, she’s hot (not the hottest I’ve been, but top5), her character is great and she’s great with kids (I saw her with her nephews). But knowing what you wrote, maybe it’s better idea to live apart for now, make sure I want her to be my wife and move in when/if we got married. Thanks for the help!


    I know that late thirties is a peak of male SMV, but I’m already doing pretty good right now. And for the purpose of starting family IMO 40-45 is little late. It’d would be nice to also have good relationships with grandkids in the future and if my kids (boys especially) would decide to have their children at the same age as me, I might be too old for that. On the other hand who knows, maybe life expectancy and healthcare in 50 years would allow for that.

    And about living arangements and kicking her out if needed, as far as I know it wouldn’t be a problem (I’m from eastern europe), but I will look into that. Thanks.

    I really enjoy this blog (and its comments), because how insightful all the entries can be and writers here tend to be less angry than on other sites. The answer I’d get would probably be something like “next that cunt”, so it’s refereshing to get more. Appreciate it, fellas!

  35. Truth is that using my time for self-development, sarging girls and trying new hobbies is great, but I’ve always had the big picture in mind. Having kids and creating my legacy (as pompous as it sounds) was always purpose of my life. For some it might sound like BP dream, but I don’t care. I have big extended family (they are important to me) and have great relations with all my nephews and nieces. After seeing how my actions impact their little lives, I know that it’s something I’d also want for myself.

    I live in a privileged world in which marriage is the norm. To the 90% degree. That’s who we are and what we do here where I’m at.

    Good responses Apollo and I’m not anti marriage. On the idea of shacking up, I also am duplicitous in the fact that I shacked up with my wife nine months before we got engaged back in 1989. My daughter is shacked up with her boyfriend of 2.5 years for the last six months an engagement is imminent in the next three months or so.

    I’m a proponent of marriage. Especially when it is the norm in your family. It is in mine. Big time.

    And I like it a lot.

    I also like all things Red Pill. I almost crashed and burned without knowing anything about Red Pill.

    There is a talk show personality in the U.S.A, Dr. Laura Schlessinger who is adamantly against the shacking up dynamic for practical (praxeologic) reasons. Pretty much the same reasons. But from the The Sisterhood dynamic rather than The Brotherhood dynamic. It is to ensure the desire dynamic and to vett outside of shacking up which puts burdens on the relationship and the sexual dynamic.

    So I understand your desires, but since Red Pill is a thing, the advice given is in your own best interest in terms of Frame and Mental Point of Origin.

    As Rollo said:

    I’m not anti-marriage. I’m anti- uninformed, pollyanna, shoulda’-saw-it-coming, ONEitis fueled, shame induced, bound for bankruptcy, scarred my children for life, marriage.

  36. At the risk of driving Rollo to an edge of Jordan Peterson puke, regarding relationship game. You go into relationship Game with good Frame as a Male, and leading her with your Mental Point of Origin :

    To each his own. You decide. I’m strongly favorable to LTR Game in the rubric of The Red Pill. I like it. It’s who I am and it is fun when it is healthy. Right now it’s healthy.

    And it’s paradoxical that that one researcher that discovered that ‘contempt’ is the predictor of a LTR decline also found that healthy LTR’s and marriages didn’t correlate with lack of “wrestling” with each other. In other words, arguing and tussling is not a detriment to a good relationship. It’s somewhat healthy, because of the Strength and Frame Game.

  37. @SJF – I don’t see the paradox myself. How are “wrestling” and “contempt” related?

    Someone you have contempt for is beneath you, they’re not worth having a serious, mature argument with – I think you may be confusing that with spiteful, snide comments and petty fights.

    I understand and mostly agree with the first part of your comment, however.

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