Iron Rule of Tomassi #4
NEVER under any circumstance live with a woman you aren’t married to or are not planning to marry in within 6 months.
You are utterly powerless in this situation. NEVER buy a home with a girlfriend, NEVER sign a rental lease with a girlfriend. NEVER agree to move into her home and absolutely NEVER move a woman into your own established living arrangement. I’m adamantly opposed to the “shacking up” dynamic, it is a trap that far too many men allow themselves to fall into. My fervor against this isn’t based on some moral issue, it is simple pragmatism. If you live with a woman you may as well be married because upon doing so every liability and accountability of marriage is then in effect. You not only lose any freedom of anonymity, you commit to, legally, being responsible for the continuation of your living arrangements regardless of how your relationship decays.
I should also emphasize the point that when you commit (and it is a financial commitment) to cohabiting with a GF you will notice a marked decrease in her sexual availability and desire. The single most common complaint related to me in regards to how to reignite a woman’s desire comes as the result of the guy having moved into a living arrangement with his LTR. All of that competitive anxiety and it’s resulting sexual tension that made your single sex life so great is removed from her shoulders and she can comfortably relax in the knowledge that she is your ONLY source of sexual intimacy. Putting your name on that lease with her (even if it’s just your name) is akin to signing an insurance policy for her –
“I the undersigned promise not to fuck any woman but this girl for a one year term.”
She thinks, “if he wasn’t serious about me, he wouldn’t have signed the lease.” Now all of that impetus and energy that made having marathon sex with you an outright necessity is relaxed. She controls the frame and she’s got it in writing that it is for at least a year.
Just don’t do it. Relationships last best when you spin more plates or at the very least keep each other at arm’s distance.
There was a time when the hip, counter-culture thing to do was flip the establishment the bird and cohabit with a girlfriend, sans the marriage contract. In the swinging post-sexual-revolution 70’s, feminism was more than happy to encourage the idea until it ran into the problem of making men financially accountable for all the “free milk” the cows were giving away. However, that not withstanding, there’s still a kind of a lingering after effect feeling about “living together” that seems like a good idea to guys to this day.
Of all the reasonable excuses I’ve heard for men wanting to cohabit with their girlfriends, the most common is that they did so for financial reasons. He (or she) needed a roommate and why not one that they enjoy fucking? That’s the cover story, but underneath it there’s the semiconscious understanding that it would be far more convenient to have a continuous flow of pussy as part of the utilities, uninterrupted by the formalities of having to go on dates or drive somewhere to get it. I can’t say that, on the surface, this doesn’t make perfect sense. Leave it a man to find the most pragmatic solution to his problem. However, as with most things woman, what seems like the most deductive solution is often a cleverly disguised trap.
Shacking up, just as in marriage, affords a woman a reasonable sense of comfort. It becomes at least a marginal shelter from the competition anxiety that she had to endure while living on her own and dating a guy who still had at least the perceived option to be unpredictable. Not so in the quasi-marriage that living together dictates. And it’s just this sense of predictability that allows her to relax into familiarity, and later, into dictating the terms of her own intimacy. In other words, she’s in the perfect position to ration her sexuality; to negotiate the terms of her desire in exchange for a living arrangement.
By the same reasoning, most AFCs view cohabiting as an ideal arrangement. Few of them really have the real options, much less the will to experiment exercising them, to see shacking up as anything but a great way of exiting the SMP, limiting potential rejection, and locking down a consistent supply of pussy. Men who are spinning plates, men with options, men with ambition, rarely see cohabiting as anything but a limiting hinderance on their lives. On some level of consciousness women understand this dynamic; guys with options (the Alphas they’d prefer) wouldn’t consider cohabitation. So when a man agrees to, or suggests living together it impresses her with two things – either he’s an Alpha who she’s won over so completely that he’s ready to commit to exclusivity with her, or he’s a beta with no better propositions than to settle into living with what he believes is his ‘sure thing’. What’s jarring for a woman is that she may start her living arrangement thinking she’s found the elusive Alpha ready to commit, only to later find he was just a clever beta who reverts back into his former, comfortable, AFC self after they sign the lease agreement.
Now all that said, what makes more sense? To live independently and enjoy the options to live unhindered with a live-in girlfriend, or move her in and have to deal with her every waking moment? Moving in with a woman implies commitment, and whenever you commit to anything you lose your two most valuable resources, options and the ability to maneuver.
I shacked up a couple of times, the personality of the girls did a 180 degrees turn and he relationships died painfully and slowly.
If I moved with my current girlfriend Im sure the relationship would end within a week. She keeps hinting how good it would be to rent a shared house and buy a common car though. L-O-L.
“I shacked up a couple of times, the personality of the girls did a 180 degrees turn and he relationships died painfully and slowly.” Ditto. “If I moved with my current girlfriend Im sure the relationship would end within a week. She keeps hinting how good it would be to rent a shared house and buy a common car though.” I’ve only slept with my new notch once and she has already asked if I have any plans to move to London. Ha ha! No, I’ve learned my lesson there. If I don’t get to relax around the woman I… Read more »
Since i’m living with my girlfriend, I’m probably just talking my book, but here goes anyway. I think that it is possible to have a live in that you game correctly. The corollary to your proposition is that it is impossible to ever live with or commit to a woman and keep her in her place…which I don’t think is true. Roissy had several good posts on this matter a while back and I took those to heart. I continue to game her. I continue to let her know that I have options, because I do. I continue to keep… Read more »
The question still remains, why move in with her in the first place? I’m not suggesting that Game isn’t effective within the parameters of an LTR or marriage, but how are you benefiting by living together in ways you couldn’t living apart?
well, I do enjoy her company and I like having her here all the time. I like her not having to leave every morning to go home and I like her being here whenever I get back. I’m also happy to deepen the connection and the time. And ultimately, she’s paying for half the shit. So I saw it as: I can either go on this way with her basically living here all the time or: Someone (her) is going to pay me $18,000 per year to see if I like living with her. If it doesn’t work out, I… Read more »
but how are you benefiting by living together in ways you couldn’t living apart?
I live with my GF, and first thing that pops to mind is economies of scale. Rent, cable, electric, any other joint expenses are being spread over two incomes instead of one. If I were living alone, I’d still have those same fixed expenses. That leaves me extra discretionary income for fun, and more to trade with.
I’ll add a few more benefits of living together versus living apart. Having my breakfast and dinner prepared just about every night. Having my lunch packed for me every day, and having all my grocery shopping done. Lots of little things, but over the course of a week it adds up and frees up time for me to do other things that are a better use of my time.
In most states, legally sharing an address with a person of the opposite sex for more than 30 days causes you to be commonlaw married in the eyes of the law. In some states, Utah comes to mind–if you spend the night with someone, it’s considered a commonlaw marriage! So if you’re swooping in Salt Lake, gotta duck out before dawn. Also, if you DO insist on putting that gun to your head by getting married, a Dartmouth university study a few years back actually shows a HIGHER rate of divorce in those who lived together before marriage. Personal experience:… Read more »
no, only 11 states still contract common law marriage (although all states do recognize common law marriages contracted in those 11 states).
and even in those 11 states, the couple still needs to present themselves as husband and wife. this is one of the requirements necessary to establish a common law marriage contract.
so merely shacking up with somebody isn’t enough.
obviously, don’t do stupid shit like cosign a loan, but that’s just common sense.
According to the official word of Utah, “Utah does not have common law marriage; instead, you may petition the court to recognize your relationship as a marriage even though you never had a marriage ceremony.” Consent is required from both parties, so it’s not like a girlfriend or one night stand could marry you against your will.
I lived with a girlfriend for a couple of years, and it was as Rollo describes: a gradual turn-off of sex, a gradual turn-on of complaints. What’s worse, I knew it was a bad idea before I did it. In a weak moment, I promised to move in with her if her roommate ever moved out–assuming that event was safely in the far-away future. Lo and behold, a month later the roommate moved out and the girlfriend asked ‘what was I going to do?’. So, I made what I thought was the principled decision, sticking to my promise and not… Read more »
“If you live with a woman you may as well be married because upon doing so every liability and accountability of marriage is then in effect.”
Absolutely wrong. You still own 100% of your stuff (i.e. if you own a house it remains yours) and you keep 100% of your salary if you split up.
Divorce is a hell of a lot worse than breaking up with a girlfriend.
This is the first post of yours that I disagree with Rollo. If you are to make the case that cohabitation is “dangerous” to a man’s sex life, where does that leave marriage? If a 1 year lease is a serious commitment, what is a marriage contract? The principles of masculinity apply to ANY relationship. You must maintain a dominant frame or you will get your balls handed to you. The more leverage she has (living together, marriage, comfort in your words and actions) the more important it is to maintain hand. Marriage doesn’t isolate you from this, and I… Read more »
Now that I’m living alone again, I am absolutely loving it. I have my motorcycle, my dog, and my Internet connection.
Women visit and sleep over, of course. But they are gone by the next day leaving me to enjoy my motorcycle, my dog, and my Internet connection.
The “stay over relationship” would seem to be the best for men of any age.
I’m not sure why marriage + moving in is better than just moving in. Could you elaborate on that? I suppose I should qualify this a little more. Obviously in terms of long term risk, marriage holds a lot more for a man to lose both materially and in a life opportunities respect. However, try not to think of this essays as a promotion of marriage in favor of cohabiting, so much as it is a comparison to a married lifestyle. From the guys I’ve counseled who were trying to make the ‘living together’ work, everyone of them complained that… Read more »
I’ve never had sex diminish after moving a girl in. It’s an arrangement that I’m so comfortable and confident in that setup that that I’ve OFTEN moved girls in on the first date. Passion and sex life was always strong, with a few girls regularly giving blow jobs in taxi cabs, and most girls being in a near constant froth. Of the last 5 girls that I seriously dated 5 lived with me. The current has been with me for 5 months and we are passionate and in love and every day is better than the last. The previous was… Read more »
So, there are two types of sites, Game and MRA sites. Game sites are more about the individual relating with women, while MRA sites face the problem from a social and legal perspective. This post shows how they intersect, in the case this was necessary. The topic of marriage is analyzed and eviscerated by any MRA site like The Spearhead, being a social contract. The classic verdict is negative, today men have only to lose in Western countries from marriage, women lose their physical beauty and good behavior, men lose freedom and gain a much more demanding financial burden, men… Read more »
I enjoy posts like this, for the simple reason that they invigorate the discussion. Great comments too.
So interesting Rollo! and as I think about it, probably great advice for women, too, in many of the same ways, but some different ones, too.
For one, living apart but being in a relationship for an extended time seems like a very effective way to weed out men who have no housekeeping skills llz if only I had known #sillywoman
feh.. i’m living with my girlfriend.. however i’m making sure i follow the roissy maxim of “instilling dread”. i make sure she sees the hot friend girls i have on my friends list. i have them call me occasionally to check on me etc. chicks may try to rule the roost.. but the rooster with options always wins.
Yes, it’s possible to instill dread while living with a girl. A little relationship brinksmanship here, a little letting her see girls sending you flirtations text messages there, and a general unrepentent bad boy attitude can keep her on just the precise amount of edge that you want her to be on.
Maybe this is one thing that I have always done right in my relationships, but not one time have I been in an LTR (live-in or otherwise) where I wasn’t satisfied with the quantity and quality of the sex all the way through the relationship. I just can’t wrap my head around the idea of being with with a chick who is stingy with the sex. If some chick tried to use sex as a bargaining chip or even slowed down the pace to an unacceptable level she’d be gone in a minute. Maybe my attitude toward this was apparent… Read more »
I’ve been seeing my girl for over a year, and living with her for the last 5 months. She seems to be getting hornier every week. Mind you, she started out an asexual virgin, but still. She was one of two main girls in the early days of seeing her, and when one girl moved out of my apartment she performed a stealth move in – “visiting” every night. We are quite happy together now, fuck often, and she is my personal slave. I had her quit her job just to do everything I say when I say it. Mind… Read more »
I only lived with 3 women in my life. All ended badly. The first 2 lasted no longer than 3 months, and the third, who I ended up marrying, recently ended in divorce. I can somewhat understand moving in with a woman if its very convenient and its not too serious. If thats the case, then no great loss when it ends. But believe me, familiarity breeds contempt, and her listening to your snoring and you smelling her shit after she goes poo will quickly overcome the sweet novelty of you waking up in each others arms. Off topic, but… Read more »
Can being on the pill contribute to lack of libido? When you trust each other so much you ditch the condoms and she gets on the pill instead, you might also move in together. One of the side effects CAN BE loss of sex drive.
I’m a little confused.. “I doubt a guy would be willing to assume a living arrangement where these accountabilities were a given with the foreknowledge that the reward (him getting regular sex) would gradually diminish from levels that were more sustainable while he was single and unencumbered by a solitary woman.” Do people go from single to living together immediately? Wouldn’t they be in a LTR prior to cohabitation? Doesn’t a LTR imply exclusivity and some extent of commitment? I understand options don’t diminish upon entering a relationship, but are you encouraging that a guy dates multiple women, cheats, while… Read more »
Dear Rollo, first of all, a big thanks for the time and effort you put into your blog. Of all PU/Game blogs, it’s the most informative, since you offer a lot of bio-psychological explanations for all the things we experience everyday in interpersonal relations. For me as a molecular biologist with high interest in evolutionary roots of human behaviour, your blog “goes deep under the surface”… In your entry “Shacking up”, you strongly discourage men from living together with a women – and I fully agree to that. As a 33y.o. guy in a happy relationship with separate flats, I… Read more »
Getting into a relationship should be considered seriously not just by one but both partners. Always discuss your expectations and meet halfway on things that you disagree with because there will always be disagreements.
Cloud-9 relationships don’t last long. It all starts well until someone figures out the great differences between the two of them. Thus starts the epic battle of the “sexes in the same roof”. A battle that can last for ages or just a short time depending on how both prepared for it.
Long blog post but I love it.
Rollo, I could use your take on this hypothetical situation. Say you are in an exclusive relationship for 1yr+, living seperately, and you are going to move for a job. The relationship is great and you want it to continue this way. The options on the table are she either moves with you or you two end things. If she moves with you, you will be living together for 1yr and you will be the breadwinner while she takes over domestic duties and continues some education. After the 1yr together you two would move back to your original location and… Read more »
[…] a frame grab. The obvious tell was how she was semi-permanently establishing a nest at his place. Never a good idea, but entirely expected of a woman who feels the urgency of sex decline with her competition […]
There is huge potential of -hello- getting the GF PREGNANT when living together, which really is worse than a marriage you can end easily (kidless). This happened to us 30 odd years ago, we did the “right thing” and are the last couple married in our families. I told our kids DO NOT SHACK UP, they did, and my daughter got pregnant practically overnight – no marriage for her, he was a bum. My wife and I have a precious 9 year old now we co-raise and the daughter is finally about to move out. Sheesh! Nobody listens, they all… Read more »
Which reminds me, if your primary directive is banging a new chickita every night, and I would too mind you, get it snipped so there will be no oops, no debit on your paycheck every month to the state of “I F’d up,” and not another child wondering why his daddy doesn’t visit on the holidays. That or use a fake name and a burner phone – works for me.
[…] and then read this. […]
brilliant. this story is a great example. https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/517371911819759616
that was my reply, here is rollo’s original tweet with the example:
[…] you’ll probably guess the passive test is usually reserved for marriages and LTRs (live in arrangements being common). Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test, however you […]
dc1000 is a beta buck suffering severe cognitive dissonance.
[…] “Let’s say I don’t and I would never do that. End of […]
[…] of the reasons I advise against men and women shacking up is because the comfort and regularity of that living situation eventually becomes a disincentive […]
Late post here, new to Red Pill… Another data point to co-habit laws: Up here in Quebec, Canada co-habiting incurs *no-legal-obligation*. I just walked out of a 28-year co-habit and besides agreeing to child expenses and buying back my half of the house, no cash and prizes were awarded. No lawyers or judges. There was a recent court case on this subject a few years ago – a local billionaire paid a cash award to his young co-habit live-in girlfriend (Lived together for 20 years if I remember correctly) to get rid of her. She wasn’t happy with the amount… Read more »
[…] marriage highly and are likely to divorce when stress is put onto marriage. Other than this fact, Rollo specifically touches on the idea of cohabitation and why its a terrible idea for men. One of his […]
This is good advice. It reminds me of a psycho g/f I had years ago. She spent the night at my house one day, and refused to go back to her house. She got crazier and crazier, and I could not get her out of my house. I was concerned about calling the police to get her our because I knew about the Duluth model. I finally had my sister help her move her stuff out. My sister nearly took a punch for me when she stepped between me and a raging psycho. Without another female present, I’m sure the… Read more »
gimme a break.
I shacked it up once.
Her apartments. her dollars. Her invitation.
Sex was plentiful. plennnnntiful. Why? BECAUSE SHE ACTUALLY ENJOYED SEX. IMagine that, eh?
Why would you care about fucking a bunch of women when most of them aren’t even worthy of a KISS? What kind of insensitive man-slut would even consider ‘playing the field’ to be desirable? someone who is shallow. That’s IT!
This article is like a giant cynical turd. Not worth swallowing.
@radium isn’t it crazy how a bitch can feel entitled to stay forever after just 1 night? I had a similar situation once. This girl would not leave and when I forced her to leave she would threaten to not come back and be banging on my door the nxt night at 1-2am…lol psycho! Besides this however the sex was plentiful! Actually every woman I have ever lived with made it a priority to keep my balls empty, sometimes to my own exhaustion. So I can’t agree on the sex dissapearing but I agree that your power and freedom will… Read more »
Still transitioning from blue to red… (still heavily blue)
What’s the best way to extract oneself from a relationship (not married) where I am the one living in her place and want to end it/move out?
Do I up and leave with no explanation and no contact? Take all of my stuff when she departs on her next business trip and she comes home to her house minus me and my stuff?
Read this, just swap out the location:
You dump the bitch in whatever manner suits your needs
Reblogged this on eghost247.
It’s an interesting post and I understand the points against living together, but what about getting to know her really well, before actually considering proposing? I’m 32 and exclusive with a girl for a year and since the moment she became my gf, I’ve noticed slightly smaller sex drive on her part (some of heirtiste’s dread ideas helped me a lot in those situations). Right now I’m considering letting her move in with me (she pushed for it for some time) – I’d still be leasing the apartment and if it doesn’t work out, I’ll just kick her out. I… Read more »
@Apollo Rollo considered a lot of factors into his original essay. The essay only provides 10% of the full story. The prime factor he discusses is Your Mental Point of Origin and Your Frame. She should be a complement to your life not the focus of it. In other words, she should come into your Frame and how you see things and be respectful of you (if you are respectable), you shouldn’t lean into her Frame to appease her unless you know what you are doing and you want to. Every other sentence from you is you being in her… Read more »
SJF gave you the talking to I would’ve, but just to emphasize it, don’t move her in. Your sexual frequency will decline even more and as easy as it is to think “I’ll just kick her out if things go bad” the truth is you wont and she always has more rights than you in terms of your domestic arrangement.
At 32 you shouldn’t even be considering a living arrangement. Your SMV peak years are just ahead of you. Why would you want to put the handcuffs on your sex life now?
Apollo Part of your reasoning is ostensibly to ‘get with her more’ (as can be read by your sub-comms) and that you are wanting to do this to Vett her better. That’s all good until she starts hiding the vagina (which happens to be a SuperPower she has. And will use. And you will deny she is using it when she is using it). You need to be brutally honest with yourself about this. Brutally honest about your masculine Alpha skills. And her potential ability to use this move-in to lock down your commitment incrementally and more incrementally. For better… Read more »
@SJF My first instinct when you mentioned that it sounds I’m leaning to her frame was to be defensive, but one of many things RP taught me is to be honest with myself. If you’ve spotted that just by reading my comment, maybe there’s something to it. I will strongly consider that posibility and will analyze my and her behaviour even further. You’ve listed some really great points and some ideas I’ve already used on her and they work flawlessly. She’s 25 and she’d been my plate for 6 months, before we were exclusive. She actually responded really well to… Read more »
Truth is that using my time for self-development, sarging girls and trying new hobbies is great, but I’ve always had the big picture in mind. Having kids and creating my legacy (as pompous as it sounds) was always purpose of my life. For some it might sound like BP dream, but I don’t care. I have big extended family (they are important to me) and have great relations with all my nephews and nieces. After seeing how my actions impact their little lives, I know that it’s something I’d also want for myself. I live in a privileged world in… Read more »
At the risk of driving Rollo to an edge of Jordan Peterson puke, regarding relationship game. You go into relationship Game with good Frame as a Male, and leading her with your Mental Point of Origin : https://youtu.be/95dmLhYZwSg https://youtu.be/n-SVPsGMPi8 To each his own. You decide. I’m strongly favorable to LTR Game in the rubric of The Red Pill. I like it. It’s who I am and it is fun when it is healthy. Right now it’s healthy. And it’s paradoxical that that one researcher that discovered that ‘contempt’ is the predictor of a LTR decline also found that healthy LTR’s… Read more »
[…] Çeviri : Shacking Up […]
@SJF – I don’t see the paradox myself. How are “wrestling” and “contempt” related?
Someone you have contempt for is beneath you, they’re not worth having a serious, mature argument with – I think you may be confusing that with spiteful, snide comments and petty fights.
I understand and mostly agree with the first part of your comment, however.