Recently Marellus from Just Four Guys brought this to my attention:
Did you see how the womyn tore apart a commenter, by the name of Redlum, on Jezebel ?
Just because he said this :
Why does feminism have to antagonize and mock men all the time? Men are expected to have no vulnerabilities, this is an oppressive gender role. When men’s vulnerabilities are exposed, such as feeling emasculated or being insecure about women making them “obsolete”, that is a human emotion and gloating over it and mocking it is not only terrible, but also one of the big things giving feminism a bad name.
The top reply was this :
If being in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you and/or has a higher position than you makes you feel that you are becoming obsolete, maybe you should be mocked for being silly, immature, and sexist. So now, on top of everything else that women have to deal with, we have to comfort men for freaking out whenever a woman surpasses them at something? I’m sorry – if you are in a group that has been privileged over/oppressive of other groups, you don’t get an apology and a reassuring hug every time we get a millimeter closer to some semblance of fairness and equality. Men need to suck it up and deal with life on more equitable terms like adults, without those who do just that expecting a medal for it.
Write a post on what this guy did wrong, if possible.
Redlum’s mistake was twofold. His first error was to ever overtly look for sympathy from a woman (women). We already know women lack the capacity for empathizing with the male experience, but sympathy is another side of the equation. One grave error most blue pill plug-ins make in this respect is a presumption that women owe them sympathy or that women are predisposed to sympathizing with them.
This is usually due to having been conditioned by the feminine for so long to believe that “Open Communication®”, sharing his feelings and being vulnerable will make him the ideal man. This is an unfortunate outcome of the ‘get in touch with your feminine side’ curse of Jung: in a similar respect to the myth of Relational Equity where a man expects his sacrifices and investment in a relationship will be a buffer against women’s Hypergamy, the expectation is that women will appreciate his openness and vulnerabilities. He believes the feminine identity lie that “vulnerability is strength.”
It’s a very seductive fallacy for a dyed-in-the-wool plug-in to make. I’ve read Redlum’s comments before and he doesn’t impress me as a chump, so I believe his comment on Jezebel was really more of a symbolic appeal to feminine reason. What he illustrates here is a common misgiving most Beta blue pill men subscribe to – that they will be perceived as unique, “not like other guys” in his embracing feminine vulnerability. And as you can see from the top Jezebel reply he was met with the same hostility women have for “vulnerable” men.
Hypergamy psychologically predisposes women to hold either contempt or pity for male vulnerability on a limbic level. Even in the most ’emotionally evolved’ women, by order of degree, Hypergamy is always testing for male fitness in order to assess whom she will pair with either in short term breeding availability or long term provisioning availability. When a man overtly expresses an openness to vulnerability, on a subconscious level it telegraphs his insecurity to her Hypergamous nature. Thus, she filters him out, or if she’s paired with him prior to this expression she initiates the mental protocol to leave him for a better match.
The contempt expressed by the Jezebel authoress is a good example of this.
So now, on top of everything else that women have to deal with, we have to comfort men for freaking out whenever a woman surpasses them at something?
You’re a man, suck it up, you shouldn’t be vulnerable by virtue of your maleness. It’s a conflicting message in light of the touchy-feely feminine conditioning men endure in their upbringing, but it is an honest reaction, and one that men need to understand when sorting out the reality of women and their need to unplug.
I’m not gonna write you a love song, cause you asked for one,..
The second (symbolic?) mistake Redlum makes is making an appeal for sympathy. In Empathy I outlined women’s gut-level, evolutionarily selected-for, lack of empathizing with the male experience. I defined the difference between empathy and sympathy, and while women might lack the means for that empathy, they have a very strong sense of sympathy. However that sympathy comes with conditions.
Women involved with high SMV Alpha Men can be some of the most genuinely, organically sympathetic women you’ll ever encounter. Granted, that sympathy may facilitate her own Hypergamous interests, but more so because that Alpha never petitions her for her sympathy.
Women give their sympathies of their own accord, never as the result of a man petitioning it from her. A woman must be inspired to sympathy for a man, asking for it is negotiating for her desire to be sympathetic.
A man who is intentionally vulnerable smacks of a guy who is so in an effort to qualify for her intimacy. It’s similar to the dynamic found in Play Nice, that niceness, that vulnerability that’s supposed to be strength, is perceived as a ruse to better identify with the feminine and thus be more acceptable to it. If feminine Hypergamy is fine tuned for anything it’s genuineness. That’s not to say women wont turn it to their social and biological advantages, but Hypergamy is always testing for certainty and authenticity. I’ve stated before that there is nothing more satisfying for a woman than to believe she’s figured a guy out using her mythical feminine intuition, this is a direct satisfaction of Hypergamy’s need for certainty, but I should also add that there is nothing more mortifying, rage inducing and produces more bitter tears than a woman who’s had her Hypergamy fooled by an imposter. Not only does this deception involve a loss of investment and resources to her, but it’s also an insult to her ego that her capacity to filter for authenticity isn’t as effective as she believes her ‘intuition’ actually is.
Suck It Up
The bigger picture in this Jezebel exchange is really about one of the most basic and useful social conventions ever devised by the Feminine Imperative – The Male Catch 22:
Man Up or Shut Up – The Male Catch 22
One of the primary way’s Honor is used against men is in the feminized perpetuation of traditionally masculine expectations when it’s convenient, while simultaneously expecting egalitarian gender parity when it’s convenient.
For the past 60 years feminization has built in the perfect Catch 22 social convention for anything masculine; The expectation to assume the responsibilities of being a man (Man Up) while at the same time denigrating asserting masculinity as a positive (Shut Up). What ever aspect of maleness that serves the feminine purpose is a man’s masculine responsibility, yet any aspect that disagrees with feminine primacy is labeled Patriarchy and Misogyny.
Essentially, this convention keeps beta males in a perpetual state of chasing their own tails. Over the course of a lifetime they’re conditioned to believe that they’re cursed with masculinity (Patriarchy) yet are still responsible to ‘Man Up’ when it suits a feminine imperative. So it’s therefore unsurprising to see that half the men in western society believe women dominate the world (male powerlessness) while at the same time women complain of a lingering Patriarchy (female powerlessness) or at least sentiments of it. This is the Catch 22 writ large. The guy who does in fact Man Up is a chauvinist, misogynist, patriarch, but he still needs to man up when it’s convenient to meet the needs of a female imperative.
This dualistic, conveniently conflicting, social convention is what defines a condition of ‘equality’ for today’s New Woman:
Men need to suck it up and deal with life on more equitable terms like adults, without those who do just that expecting a medal for it.
In other words suck it up when convenient and sack up when necessary. In a sense she’s not wrong– an intrinsic part of the male experience is not to complain about adversity, not to complain about pain and not to complain about suffering – in other words, Man Up, be strong and don’t let on to any vulnerability. If that sounds contradictory to a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training for men it should, but only because it’s half of the usefulness of the Male Catch 22. Where our Jezebeler drops the ball is the other half of the con – Man up and be useful, to women, to the Feminine Imperative. The problem is that equality only applies to what benefits the feminine, anything else that constitutes a man, constitutes masculinity, is a liability.
If being in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you and/or has a higher position than you makes you feel that you are becoming obsolete, maybe you should be mocked for being silly, immature, and sexist.
There is also the option that Men may simply opt out of involving themselves in a relationship with said woman. In this case the Male Catch 22 is used to shame him for his insecurities not only by women for not participating in their potential provisioning, but also by a chorus of plugged in men ready to mock him for his lack of manhood (also in order to convince the feminine of their unique dedication to the imperative and hopefully get laid as a result of it). It’s at this point he’s derided for his ‘fragile ego’ and his ‘being threatened by strong independent women®.”
By virtue of his maleness, he literally cannot win, and any expression of this condition, even the questioning of this situation is then perceived as his complaining about it – and overt confession of vulnerability. What I’m describing here is the core issue blue pill, plugged in men have with Game and the red pill – just asking a question or making a critical observation about the feminine with regard to the male condition is always conflated with men complaining – something men aren’t allowed to do. It comes off as “poor men”, just as our Jezebeler recounts, but it distracts and discourages real discourse about those conditions.
That is how effective the Male Catch 22 is, it kills all critical inquiry before the questions can even be asked.
January 22nd, 2014 at 7:06 pm
“How many times have you heard the phrase “behind every great man is a great woman”?”
Too many unfortunately, and 99% of the people that say it fail to realise it only really suggests that the man in question is a heterosexual.
January 22nd, 2014 at 7:33 pm
You’re being disingenuous. You know full well that, for reporting with a bias toward the other side, you only need turn on the TV or open the newspaper. The manosphere is biased in that it focusses on men and their issues.
Perhaps it’s surprising to you that guys almost universally form such a blinkered view regarding the nature of women from an early age, but such is the blue pill and short of having experienced it, you’re not in any position to place judgments on what you see as the shortcomings of others.
January 22nd, 2014 at 7:34 pm
Nietzsche’s concept of active/reactive explains a lot of the red pill ideas that I see around the manosphere. Much of what Rollo explains about males and females in terms of evo psych can also be explained by the fact that males are active (affirming/criticising/attacking) and females are reactive (negating/complaining/revenging). This article is no exception. An ideology produced by and for women will have no genuine priinciples, since their way of thinking is just an expedient reaction to circumstance. So you get the feminists advancing some principle (being sensitive to others’ feelings, judging others on merit etc) when it’s convenient, but when it causes an issue (as here) suddenly their principles metamorphise.
The result of men falling under the spell of all this blue pill stuff is females starting to behave like men – but taking the worst parts without the parts that redeem them. Boasting without achievement, argumentativeness without principles, entitlement without strength, order-giving without value-giving, negation without affirmation, etc. Feminists are not really becoming men, but bringing men down to their level and setting themselves up as a third-rate substitute. The slaves ceasing to be slaves by tearing down the masters, without themselves having any idea how to properly function in their place. Here’s a prescient Nietzsche quote:
“In the three or four civilized countries of Europe women can through a few centuries of education be made into anything, even into men: not in the sexual sense, to be sure, but in every other sense. Under such a regimen they will one day have acquired all the male strengths and virtues, though they will also of course have had to accept all their weaknesses and vices into the bargain: thus much can, as aforesaid, be extorted. But how shall we endure the intermediate stage, which may itself last a couple of centuries, during which the primeval properties of women, their follies and injustices, are still asserting themselves over what has been newly learned and acquired? This will be the age in which the actual masculine affect will be anger: anger at the fact that all the arts and sciences have been choked and deluged by an unheard-of dilettantism, philosophy talked to death by mind-bewildering babble, politics more fantastic and partisan than ever, society in full dissolution…”
January 22nd, 2014 at 7:34 pm
@Tam the Bam
’d have been sorely tempted to reassure her with
“.. don’t worry, darling, you’ll never be a grandmother”.
May I have your permission to put this on a shirt design?
January 22nd, 2014 at 7:38 pm
@Eris – Here’s what’s funniest to me. Kate thinks I’m in an argument with her whereas I come here to help heal from the trauma of lifetime of living inside the female imperative. Her superficial commentary seems to want to engage me as though I’m some idiot who’s never examined myself or life or philosophy or reason. When I say I saw women as “good” it’s a shorthand for many aspects of the femcentric world I encounter and how I see the denigration of men and the elevation of women in our culture and how I’ve internalized. I could try and play “web academic” and write exquisite rhetoric and turn all this stuff on 9 different dimensions and parry and thrust with her if I was interested in a debate or just fencing with someone in a comment section, as though we were say discussing a movie or some politician.
I’m here because the version of man I was given by society and the version of woman I encounter was unmanageable for me and I had really lost my way. I had become so hopeless and so lost and really all I was doing was gutting it out every day, but inside I constantly had this sense of failure. I was also quite aware of the inequities I faced but they literally had no voice. I love when I hear feminist talk of “having a voice” and “spaces” – the entire world is a safe fucking space for their complaints and their suffering whereas a man’s suffering is scoffed out and snuffed out as quickly as can be.
There is no debating the world I encounter every day. Switch on the TV, see a movie, men are monsters, women are heroes. Disagree with a woman and your being aggressive. Expose your internal struggles and you are met with derision and denigration. That the air I breathe, it’s not something I’m trying to figure out. What’s even more shocking to me about this is how I was unable to penetrate this veil. I dropped God long ago, and saw through many other illusions I had about myself and the world through so much study, and even could see the holes in feminism or understand the politics of it or all the denigration of men, fathers and boys everywhere I turned – but I could never see how I internalized it all. How I judged myself, how my beliefs and very identity were shaped by it. The double bind and riddle with no answer that my life had become. And this wasn’t just with lovers, this was with sisters and my daughter – it’s everywhere.
Game and understanding SMV and our adaptive strategies and behaviors is only one part of this puzzle to me but it’s a huge one. I’m here to connect with other men, to gain strength and information and insight and support so I can embrace positive masculinity and really own my power and self proudly and with dignity. She thinks this is a debating society – I’m so far beyond that – and she doesn’t get it. Thankfully, because of what I’ve learned, it’s just funny to me.
Guys, I just want to once again say thanks. In the short time since I actually digested the Red Pill (I spent 9 months choking in rage and sadness on it and finally unplugged about 5 weeks ago), my life has shifted so dramatically it’s hard to describe. Women no longer mystify and me and mostly are true to the things I’ve learned here and at places like Gynocentrism.com and other places in the manosphere. My energy and self-love have zoomed back and after 11 months of unemployment, I’m going for the final interview on Monday for a dream job and am the only candidate for it, and got there by being intelligently aggressive and embracing my instincts and self instead of fighting the. I’ve actually restored a broken relationship with two sisters and have made progress with my daughter – all because of what I’ve learned in the manosphere.
This isn’t a fucking game for me, it’s my life. And really, the word parsing games and pseudo-intellectual posing of some chick here could n’t be less relevant to me. I often am amaze by the arrogance and blindness of Red Pill women or others who claim to be anti-feminist or masculine positive. If they actually got it, if they actually understood the suffering of so many men and fathers in the world and truly cared about men, they would come across much differently. But you see, now it doesn’t anger me. I know male suffering is much less meaningful to them and that what’s happening to men like me is a threat to their entire identities and sense of personal power that has gone on hyper-drive in our society. That’s okay, I hope it does scare them, they should be scared (not physically of course). Men like me will no longer play along and every day in my life I see that look on women’s faces while they simultaneously are slightly offended by my demeanor but can’t help but actually respect me more than ever. I’ll take that over the shit sandwich I’d been eating, hands down.
January 22nd, 2014 at 8:13 pm
@Caustic – I think Nietzsche was spot on in almost all of it except for the likelihood and timing of it. Biology and genetics are at work here – and I think he saw masculinity and femininity as much more culturally based, as many did at his time. Brilliant stuff, nonetheless. And the world we are in is exactly this feminized mess.
January 22nd, 2014 at 8:15 pm
I don’t debate with feminists any more.
I also find that they don’t bother me in the slightest in my daily routines and days… if I don’t actively (like now) seek out another case of feminism shooting itself in the foot. With a shotgun. Double-barrelled. That is on fire. And lightning. (i.e does something incredibly counter-productive for their alleged fight towards ‘equality’) then I don’t actually feel bothered. I pay the same for my cigarettes, my bus rides, and my junk food as any woman does. I don’t get to jump in line, or get cut in line, when applying for an education, and I don’t have to deal with anything I don’t want to deal with.
In fact, I think this whole third-(fourth?)generation “feminism” is more so a thing of the internet, than it is a real thing. I’ve found over the past two or so years, that feminism’s ugly face of misandry, self-loathing, and fear is actually not something I find even when talking to people who identify as feminists.
My last talk with a friend of mine – great friend so I might be biased – who claims that he’s a feminist, lead me to believe that he merely sticks to that label due to the original meaning of that word, yet his viewpoints and ideology was that of mine; an egalitarian.
Which is the case with every other self-claimed feminist I’ve had the pleasure of meeting.
So guys, please, calm your tits and have a beer. Women aren’t the enemy, feminism isn’t a problem, and unless you actually give in to the internet-trolls, then you won’t ever have any issues to deal with. The horror stories of feminazis plotting on how to leech your money, the horror stories of feminazis successfully creating laws that have all boys castrated at birth, and all the other horrendous, doomsday-stories the internet is brewing up will NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN.
All you do now, guys, is feeding a bunch of internet trolls. And while I’m certain some feminazis actually believe the shit they’re barfing out online, I can assure you that the largest group are just trolling. And why not? Acting as a feminist online, or an anti-feminist, as way that gives you a 100% response rate to anything you post. Wherever you post it.
Cheers, lads. And happy fucking new year, woohoo 2014!
January 22nd, 2014 at 8:26 pm
@Glenn: There is just too great a divide between men and women’s communication styles when they aren’t willing to listen openly to one another. You don’t believe that I hear you, so I’ll just say, congratulations on all your success and good luck at your interview.
@Eris: Stories might be out there, but does any of it personally touch you? I read here that only men can truly empathize and love. Do you empathize with any of the woman’s plight? Do you believe they suffer too? (These are rhetorical questions I don’t expect an answer to, nor will I read.) Because I believe that when you truly empathize, and you feel what another person feels, you cannot keep from forgiving them because you know you were half to blame. This victimization on either side won’t do.
January 22nd, 2014 at 10:16 pm
@kate – No, you don’t get me, you can’t get me – you have no idea what it’s like and you aren’t used to listening to men in a way that actually dignifies our lived experiences. However, I’ve had to listen to women’s experiences and emotions being shoved down my throat for my whole fucking life. I’m exquisitely tuned in to every aspect of femininity as it’s worshipped in our culture. You don’t get it – your views aren’t welcome to me. I’m not here to understand women, I’m here to detach from them, yes? A lifetime of female imperative has nearly choked me to death. You have no idea what that’s like, and I also don’t care what you think. This is a man’s space, about men, for men and by men. The whole point is that it proceeds with utter disregard for what women think about it. I’m not here to understand you or communicate with any woman. I’m not interested anymore, I’ve had my fill.
You prance in here and assume a pose of interpreting this for us and questioning us and parsing what we say as though we are interested in a women’s perspective. Do you get it yet? We are not – not in this space. This is a space for men. Wake up. Go do peddle your weak analysis and commentary someplace where people give a shit what you think. We don’t need you – we’ll be just fine without you. Get over yourself.
January 22nd, 2014 at 10:24 pm
@ Klaus – You start off talking about how feminism does absurd things and then claim it doesn’t actually harm you and that really it’s only an internet phenomena. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the Duluth Model of Domestic Violence and see how it privileges women under the law. Look at how “Rape Culture Theory” drives Title IX implementation and has literally stripped men attending university in the U.S. of due process rights when accused of sexual assault. Consider also in the west how many govt depts have special set asides and divisions for women’s interests and studies. In the U.S. our economic stimulus program in 2009 was hijacked by feminists who raised hell over much of the money going into construction and other capital projects and instead the money went in large part into women’s areas of work
In the U.S. the support for govt collectivism and massive govt debt occurs once feminism empowers women politically, and the consumer culture takes off once women become economically empowered as well. And I’m just getting going. Just because you don’t pay more for a pack of gum doesn’t mean feminism doesn’t have a real impact on your life
January 23rd, 2014 at 6:14 am
“It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.” – Emerson
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:23 am
I think that like so many other aspects of the Feminine Imperative, Suck It Up is a manifestation of the apex fallacy which results from hypergamy. No True Man (i.e. no apex) snivels about women treating him poorly, because we all know that women treat A True Man very well indeed. Elsewhere, a man is arguing with me the man’s pov version of this fallacy which I have caricatured as No True Coolguy. The women’s pov version is simply No True Man.
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:30 am
And I think that with the introduction of No True Man, I have arrived. I’ve been immersed in the manosphere for only a month, believe it or not, and my redpill redhotness is so far from being quenched that the resulting heating of the environs is self tempering.
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:36 am
@Glenn
You wrote: “Her treatment of me became abusive and to the point where her sister confronted her about how she constantly treated me with scorn and derision in public… I kept trying to reason with her and negotiate and got sucked into all her emotional garbage… 9 relationships that lasted exactly 4-5 months where my tolerance would be exceeded and I would exit. With game I could have managed all this much more productively ”
About every 2-3 years from 1988 to 2010, I was in and out of Family Court settling divorce and custody issues from 3 different relationships. It looked like another round was coming in 2013, when I stumbled on to the manosphere, and began to understand what I’ve been doing wrong. I’ve only been applying Game (the understanding of what factors trigger a woman’s attraction) for a few months, but the results have been more than I thought were possible. Women respond to these factors, (such as status, power, and masculine behavior) as predictably and consistently as a man responds to pictures in a Playboy magazine.
@Kate
You wrote: “I say, yes, do still be honest and sincere, but be smart about it”
That was the guiding principle during the 22 years I poured out my strength, money, and heart. At the time, it was a consolation to be able to say to myself that I was honest and sincere. But looking back, who benefited? My ego? My self respect? Maybe. But what about children growing up in broken homes? What about the “mommy’s got a new boyfriend” revolving door? Was anybody better off (except the lawyers)?
In the end, when mommy’s value dropped to the point that drug addicts and financial leeches were her only options, did she benefit from honesty and sincerity? The advice I give to my son: learn Game, and practice it until you die. It’s the best chance you got to keep your woman attracted to you, and it’s the best chance you got to keep your family.
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:45 am
Glenn has unplugged from the Matrix, but he still has the holes and plugs from the time he spent in it.
January 23rd, 2014 at 12:28 pm
Yeah, Rollo, watching someone work all that out of his system in real time is a sight to behold. Glenn not only still has the holes and plugs, he is still flailing in the water pool waiting to be flushed out. He’s like a baby, gasping in air and pushing it out, getting his bearings.
This is a good thing.
January 23rd, 2014 at 12:49 pm
This is a good thing.
Yes.
January 23rd, 2014 at 5:13 pm
@ Rollo & Deti – Fantastic way to describe it – even if the ego did twinge a bit at the “baby” characterization at first glance. But I thought about it and it’s true. Yet each day brings more clarity and power and confidence and calmness. Exercising ‘positive masculinity’ is not so hard for me in some ways as it’s always been there in me, but pushed down and shamed and repressed.
I’ve been thinking a lot about aggression. I was a guy who had problems being over-aggressive at times in my life and I realize that this was in part because I shamed myself for it. I also note that when in conflict, I would automatically become defensive and uncomfortable about it – and I now see that entirely as an adaptive response based on how I understand the culture’s perception of aggression. I’m more aggressive and assertive than ever but much less likely to get angry and have it spin out of control now, it’s quite startling actually. For me it’s as though my alphaness is re-asserting itself, but now without sefl-doubt and accordingly, I don’t need to be so loud about it or something. Put more simply, I used to be cocky (before being worn down to a nub) and now I’m just self-assured and confident. A lifetime of insecurity had fallen away – it’s really just amazing. I’m embracing my nature instead of fighting it and it just feels so right.
Does that make any sense to men further down this path than I am?
January 23rd, 2014 at 6:14 pm
@Mike: “It’s the best chance you got to keep your woman attracted to you, and it’s the best chance you got to keep your family.”
Yeah, I agree with that. That is what I meant about the smart part.
January 23rd, 2014 at 7:30 pm
@Kate – Thanks for a being an object lesson in the female imperative non-stop.
January 23rd, 2014 at 7:52 pm
@Glenn
Absolutely.
It has always fascinated me how much I had changed from when I was a young kid, too young to understand anything about gender relations and having a masculine role model in my father (unfortunately it didn’t last long, whole other story).
I remember my first sexual experience with a neighborhood girl. I was curious just like any other boy and I never asked permission or felt self-conscious about wanting to do sexual things to girls. I simply initiated contact and if it was welcomed I had my way. Pure instinct.
Contrast that with how pussyfied young boys are raised to be now, not only in the sexual realm but everything else in-between when it comes to dealing with women and having your masculinity suppressed to the nth degree.
This mentality had been thoroughly cleansed from me when I became a horny teenager. All of sudden, I was nervous about the whole ordeal. I couldn’t even manage to keep anything steady with women who approached me first.
That’s one of the epiphanies I had. Masculinity was the driving force in my behavior before I became indoctrinated. I’m much more centered and content with life after the red pill.
Women are so much more easier to deal with that I find myself laughing at them when they behave in such predictable ways, it never gets old. Withdrawing my attention and/or blowing them off has been a potent tool when it comes to bad behavior. It works so well it almost feels like I’m cheating, lol. They seriously turn it on/off like a light switch.
January 23rd, 2014 at 7:56 pm
@Glenn: Don’t expect other women to be as tolerant of you as I have been. And, keep in mind, the men you are admiring (Rollo and Deti) are married men who have never been divorced. I don’t say that necessarily to discredit them, but to caution you about knowing from whom you are taking advice.
To me, there are ethical concerns regarding unplugging people without having some path for them to follow. I don’t see either of them offering you a hit from their oxygen tank at the moment. Instead, they are observing you as a science experiment. Where is their empathy now? Can they even empathize with your loss in the first place, not having experienced it? Having almost divorced or knowing people who have divorced is not the same thing as first hand experience.
You say you’ve dropped God. It doesn’t work that way. It may be true that there are “holes” in you from what you have left behind, so be careful what you allow to fill those places. Make sure they are going to truly benefit you and not just the same old master with a new name.
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:04 pm
I have a PhD in vulnerability. Including a specialization in getting crushed for expressing it. That’s basically my entire life story. If I had a dollar for every time I told someone I was suicidal and they either ignored me, criticized me, or told me to do the world a favor and follow through with it, I’d have my own island by now.
Expecting women to be these all-nurturing, sympathizing goddesses of emotional support and care like they’re portrayed in the movies. One of the hardest lessons I’ve had to learn was when I was standing in a storage room with a noose tied around my neck and facing the reality that the only unconditional love I could find in this world would be from my own self. And that was just one in a long list of many times where I just wasn’t ready to accept that truth, and the cycle kept repeating over and over for years.
The blue pill world was horrible for me to live in because I couldn’t get with women and I never had any sensory pleasures to numb me to the fact that it’s an illusion. I held onto the hope that it was true, that women would appreciate a guy like me, that I’d find this wonderful nurturing love and support, but that hope was never substantiated by anything.
I actually count that as a blessing now. I’m not tied down to anyone, and before I got locked into anything, I stumbled upon the manosphere, got Rollo’s book and started keeping up with the blog.
I actually have to laugh at a lot of what I’ve read on here and in The Rational Male book. Whenever something clicks it just feels like this huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. There’s a line in a Jimi Hendrix song called “Room Full Of Mirrors” that fits perfectly:
“I used to live in a room full of mirrors
All I could see was me
Well I take my spirit and I crash my mirror
Now the whole world is here for me to see”
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:07 pm
@Glenn: Don’t expect other women to be as tolerant of you as I have been. And, keep in mind, the men you are admiring (Rollo and Deti) are married men who have never been divorced. I don’t say that necessarily to discredit them, but to caution you about knowing from whom you are taking advice.
To me, there are ethical concerns regarding unplugging people without having some path for them to follow. I don’t see either of them offering you a hit from their oxygen tank at the moment. Instead, they are observing you as a science experiment. Where is their empathy now?
Kate,
This is a fascinating response, because it reaffirms what I’ve grown accustomed to in terms of how women communicate about these issues on the Internet.
Your first sentence is basically an admonishment/warning with just a hint of condescendion.
Then you move to false concern….”caution you”. The truth is you don’t give two shits about Glenn. You don’t know him, and he has zero impact on your life. What I’ve found is that men will “care” about other men who are virtual strangers in the sense that they represent unifying principles in the abstract. However, women don’t really care about abstract principles, only personal connections and feelings so any statement that superficially sounds like concern is usually a backhanded insult, or some other indirect communication is at work.
Your last paragraph is essentially a circuitous way of saying “Really, it is better if you stayed plugged in, you’ll be happier” again wrapped in the veneer of concerns.
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:17 pm
Hey Glenn,
Newborn stallion with wobbly legs?
Long time driver of automatic Buick Capri station wagon trying to get used to clutch engagement of a vintage 308?
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:22 pm
@ Kate – Okay, I’ll be a good boy now and straighten myself out. Please, tell me how to see the world and how to live my life and how to interpret Rollo and what to think and feel and what I should be working on. If I’m a really good boy, will you give me some candy?
Giggling, as you just become more and more of a demonstration of arrogant female imperative with each comment. It’s such a delight to see so clearly what a woman is up to. The shaming, the lecturing , the pose of superiority, the advice. If I did believe in God I’d be on my knees thanking him for finally letting me see this all for what it is.
And oh yeah, you know where you can shove that tolerance of yours, yes?
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:25 pm
@Glenn: Don’t expect other women to be as tolerant of you as I have been.
Would Rollo get a warm feeling if Glenn would say “I’d expect you to say something like that?”
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:26 pm
Crap. Hoping to post that before you came back.
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:51 pm
@ Morpheus – Brilliant, just brilliant. Thanks. I feel so much more solidarity with men after all this and intentionally go out of my way to support and connect with and listen to men in a way I hadn’t before. I had internalized the shame and denigration to such a large degree that I saw other men as schmucks too. Wow, this is like waking up from a long, bad night’s sleep.
@ Water Cannon Boy – Nice one. Kate is giving me driving lessons free of charge and I’m a fast study so no worries, I’ll be up to speed in short order.
January 23rd, 2014 at 8:56 pm
@ Water Cannon Boy – Have you clicked on Kate’s pic? 35 she says? Wow, those have been some hard years I guess. SMV plummeting, desperation so high she’s here on a men’s site taking her frustration and terror out on us. She couldn’t have picked a worse target, lol, I mean, I think she really doesn’t get what we just don’t give a shit what she says. She’s entertainment, like a court jester or something and doesn’t even know it. Please, Kate, try harder to straighten me out, I’m so confused – HELP ME!!
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:01 pm
Glenn,
There is some interesting history here regarding Kate, and I have no ill will here. I’m still not sure if the “event” was an epic trolling/catfishing event or was for real, and what exactly happened. Maybe Rollo knows more? Google Mark Minter if you are interested.
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:05 pm
And in other news…
http://ideas.time.com/2014/01/13/masculinity-is-more-than-a-mask/
Again, Here is a different interpretation. The reason you are seeing Dr. Helen on Fox News, WSJ is publishing a feminist’s defense of masculinity, and “red pill women” are sprouting up like weeds is that they are genuinely scared. They are beginning to sense that these males are not playing along, are not turning a blind eye, are not “pussy whipped” (or whatever temporal emotion).
They are afraid the males are as weak, ignorant, and fundamentally incapable as they appear.
Chateau’s description: Excellent article by Christina Hoff Sommers
Further misinterpretation.
The money shot…
The energy, competitiveness and corporal daring of normal males are responsible for much good in the world. No one denies that boys’ aggressive and risk-taking tendencies must be socialized and channeled toward constructive ends.
And who shall determine what is “good” and “constructive?” Who shall profit from it
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:07 pm
@Morpheus – Even funnier after reading the stuff on Minter. In any event, if she doesn’t want to hear back from me she should stop talking to me. As I’ve made abundantly clear I’m not here to interact with women. Period. Although she is giving me free lessons so for that I’m quite grateful.
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:17 pm
@Softek – Wow, thanks for sharing so bravely – I’m very happy you are finding some relief from your suffering. We’ve been on different paths but I can relate so much to the lack of empathy and sympathy for male suffering. I also can relate to the weight being lifted from me and the importance of self love, and the relief that this truth gives me.
I really hope you continue on this path and continue to move from strength to strength. I have a youtube channel, ScribblerG1 where I’ve done a series of videos on my journey called “Applied MGTOW”. Reach out to me there if you want to. Or not, but whatever you do, connect with other men online and in the real world.
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:18 pm
Chateau’s description: Excellent article by Christina Hoff Sommers
Further misinterpretation.
The money shot…
The energy, competitiveness and corporal daring of normal males are responsible for much good in the world. ****No one denies that boys’ aggressive and risk-taking tendencies must be socialized and channeled toward constructive ends.****
And who shall determine what is “good” and “constructive?” Who shall profit from it
No one denies?
There is a certain type of woman who pays lip service to “fairness” for boys and “speaks out againt misandry” but when you get under the hood you realize it is just superficial.
There is an excellent Twilight Zone episode called To Serve Man. It shows what appears to be benevolent aliens on Earth bringing all sorts of positive benefits to humanity, and also taking humans to “visit” their home world. At the end of the episode, someone figures out the Book titled To Serve Man is a cookbook, and the people on the ships are going back as food for the aliens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Zone)
There are some women who may be useful as allies on this or that issue, but most are not supporters of what Rollo would call “positive masculinity”. It is still ultimately about male energies and talents serving female interests.
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:19 pm
Ehh, screwed up the formatting,
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:24 pm
@ Morpheus – Again, just spot on. Even Christina Hoff Sommers can’t help herself – and who can blame her? What woman in her right mind would want to give up a world in which her imperatives are assumed to be so important?
January 23rd, 2014 at 9:34 pm
@ Softek
Expecting women to be these all-nurturing, sympathizing goddesses of emotional support and care like they’re portrayed in the movies.
A reason for depression (not the only) occurs when expectations do not jive with reality.
“I used to live in a room full of mirrors
All I could see was me
Well I take my spirit and I crash my mirror
Now the whole world is here for me to see”
As the “red pill” disillusions some with regards to women, further expectations may become more in sync with reality if the person continues to look at the “world.” So much of this shit, at bottom, is about looking inward. What happens when a person looks at a jumbled mess all the time?
Consider learning about things completely unrelated to females, and especially avoiding “self-help” explanations for why.
January 23rd, 2014 at 10:01 pm
@ Morpheus – I can’t help it, i got sucked into the Minter/Kate thing and then hopped to a blog called eradica where Kate wrote the article about white women and black men, lol. I get her now. She thinks she’s smart, but she’s not. She’s actually a teacher, yikes. She’s twigged to “game” but not the larger gynocentric/femcentric aspects like female imperative. She thinks I’m trying to figure out how to get laid, and I guess that’s understandable as many frustrated Betas who could never get laid end up here.
My situation was different. My prom queen/homecoming queen wife also had covert Narcissistic Personality Disorder (her mom was a drunken monster who neglected her after leaving her father) and after 4 years of marriage I put my foot down on her hard. She was so abusive to me and so uncaring – it was pathology, not just typical woman shit. I was an alpha in terms of social dominance and looks and was just starting to make money but had no idea how to deal with my wife and was unconscious to game, and was caught up in chivalry and romantic love. I’d bought into the frame that I wasn’t good enough for her at some level due to the horrendous abuse I suffered as a child.
But I was never going to put up with it as I had women throwing themselves at me. My wife was home with my 2 yr old and was making me beg for sex and treating me like shit so I gave her an ultimatum and sampled some of the wares being offered. I’d actually never cheated on a woman before – gf or wife and actually didn’t want to be that guy, and I felt really guilty. Warning women, don’t turn foreplay into 2 hrs of begging and pleading for your Alpha husband, they can get their dick serviced elsewhere always, but really I didn’t want that kind of life. So I circled back and “tried” and we got into therapy but my ex couldn’t really ever love any man (as her second hubby found out to his chagrin too).
As luck would have it about a year later I went on a 10 day business trip with a large group (training thing) and met a great woman but didn’t cheat. She wanted to but I didn’t. What I realized was that many great woman wanted to be with me and I was a fool to put up with my wife’s shit (this was at age 29, got married at 24). So when I came home I told her to either jump into our marriage with both feet or get out. I gave her 6 months and in that period of time she started seeing another guy but lied to me about it – while we were house shopping. I didn’t know about the affair but could tell she’d checked out so I ended the marriage, and found out about her BF 2 mos later, which sealed the deal and she later married that guy and tore him to shreds too. My 30s and early 40s saw some very beautiful and interesting women in my life but I was so burned by the first experience and was so devastated by “losing” my family – the closeness to my daughter was so important to me – that I figured if I never got married again, I would never get divorced again. I wanted it all but every serious woman who came along seemed to go crazy within 3-5 months and I kicked them to the curb. I had felt so trapped and abused in my marriage that I never wanted to be in that place again (I’ve only now realized that this was exacerbated by my childhood abuse and the combination made me really gunshy). Truly. several of them were “dimes” in my book, and I didn’t have trouble meeting woman, but was no PUA either. There were easily 30 or more women, most pretty sweet who made their way in and out of my bed during that time of my life and I could have had more.
The thing was that I could never have stable relationships with women. They always started in with the criticism or the lying or the craziness and I could never seem to stay within myself. It all felt so fucked up that I eventually became very cynical about it. It was like a riddle that I could not solve.
My entry into the manosphere came due to the events of the past 7 years of my life. I got sick and my finances and career went sideways and then down and I found women abandoned me and denigrated me and kicked my while I was down. I’m not talking about just lovers, I mean sisters and my daughter and female friends. This was coupled with my own sense of huge failure as I’d signed up to be a father figure to those two sisters and was one to my daughter and had done and sacrificed so much for all of them that I couldn’t process this. The suffering was immense as I internalized all this as failure – and one result of having an abusive (very) Dad was that I promised I would be a good father. I could not face this and it was literally running me into the ground with despair.
The manosphere cleared all of this up for me – I get how I internalized my value to women as central to my identity. Abandoned by them and not attractive as I’d put on weight and was sick, no longer having lots of money and lower social status, my confidence was shaken too. Finding MGTOWs and MRAs was my first step and that’s where I learned so much about the bigger picture but the hatred of women and the fear of them never made sense to me. And going celibate seemed quite absurd (even while this was going on I’d unconsciously used “amused mastery” to snag a 28 yr old hottie for casual hookups last year for a while).
I’d seen PUA stuff before and I was like whatever. While I couldn’t get laid on demand, I never felt really like I was so stopped in that way. But when I came here and saw it intellectually and more globally, and connected what Rollo says with say what Peter Wright’s Gynocentrism.com says and the thoughts of Chris Ryan in his groundbreaking book Sex At Dawn and some great YouTubers, it was like blammo.
I’m not here to just get laid. Sure, I’d like to get more pussy – who wouldn’t? But Kate seems to have stopped at just thinking about sexual dynamics and talks to me this way. I think she doesn’t get that she’s the one wrapped up in trying to “make it all work” with men and women sexually or in marriage. That’s not me. I hope this comment makes clearer what I bring to the table and what I see. Getting laid more readily and with less drama looks like a bonus to me, not the brass ring, yes?
January 23rd, 2014 at 10:16 pm
Here’s your ‘hit of oxygen’ Glenn:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/
January 23rd, 2014 at 10:22 pm
Also keep in mind that (Geisha) Kate is a divorced mother who is in a virtual. long distance relationship and engaged to re-marry a 58 y.o. man who was previously one of the preeminent voices in the manosphere whom she agreed to marry before meeting him in person.
Caveat emptor indeed.
January 23rd, 2014 at 10:25 pm
@ Rollo
That’s an element of internalized Game that the guys doing seminars would rather not address because your degree of success, in truth how you even measure success, is entirely dependent upon you. Hooking up with girls you’d never had access to before may sell pick up DVDs; changing the inner workings of your personality is a much tougher order. If you ever look through the ‘self-help’ psychology section of a book store and wonder why there are so many books published in the topic, it’s exactly due to this dynamic – effecting a fundamental change in one’s life requires an effort that few people have the patience and perseverance for.
That was on que.
Alas, as you state, this site is triage clinic. The blood splattered walls and comforting screams of agony shall drown out the world once more.
January 23rd, 2014 at 10:41 pm
@ Rollo – Thanks for that and I’d already read “Kill the Beta” it’s great. I think however that my post that I did while you were doing this will make clear that I’m in a somewhat different place. I know it’s a lot to ask but I’m wondering what you make of the little history I gave. I was always pulling women before my illness – I think of myself as an unconscious Alpha. Not aware of game but after my marriage ended 21 years ago, I’ve not ever put up with a woman’s shit in a relationship again and was never used for provision. I won’t reprise it all here, but I’d love to here if you see me as Beta after reading that. If so, I’ll seriously look at it but what I really feel is like I’ve stepped back into Alpha and now am game aware and Red Pillized. Game is far from reflexive for me, but in other ways very familiar to me. I never waited long to make a move, laughed at women who told me they wanted to be friends, moved on when I got rejected and had lots of success in attracting high quality/SMV women. I never got friend zoned and have always been socially dominant and good looking.
I just had no idea how to handle any of it. And then had a huge setback from illness that hurt my finances, career and appearance. It’s all in the above comment. Again, thanks for this – in combination with the other things I’ve learned in the manosphere, it’s been a lifesaver.
January 23rd, 2014 at 10:50 pm
Who indeed. If you asked Aunt-‘build a better beta’-Giggles who’s good do you think she’d say men should serve?
http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/05/build-a-better-beta/
Kate’s still clinging to her fantasy man – a Beta with a side of Alpha
http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/
who’s good will she say a man should serve?
Read all the essays in Year One, you’ll find I’m full of surprises.
http://therationalmale.com/the-best-of-rational-male-year-one/
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:05 pm
It’s not virtual anymore. I been here with her a couple of months now.
And she agreed to the whole thing because I got skillz.
Actually it sort of played like this.
I said “Where the fuck are we going with this? You live there, I live here. So go the fuck away. Odds are you are a hypergamistic bitch, prone to polyandrous tendencies. You can’t commit, at least the odds say you can’t commit. And I already was a dumb ass that threw my life in the shitter moving to Medellin to be some woman. And I am a fucking stray dog. I would be a fucking fool to come up there only to have the shit cave in on me.”
She said, “I can commit.”
I said “Talk is fucking cheap”
She can, “I can commit.”
I said “Fuck you. No you can’t”
She said “Yes I can”
I said ,”Fine. Then you go to fucking Vegas and then you meet me at a fucking Elvis Chapel. And we’ll get Rollo to come and after we’ll go out to a club and I’ll fuck you in the bathroom to consummate the thing. ”
(Yes, I had seen that one comment about Susan Walsh saying “Well Rollo is this and that and he lives in …” that was written in the “It’s their game” post when Third Millennium Man went on HuffPro live. I never figured you would get so bent out of shape over the idea of it all)
She said “Fine, but you’ll have to change your Facebook status to ‘Engaged'”
I got like 5 Facebook friends who were people I knew like 10 years ago. So I figured, “Whatever. No one is gonna find out anyway.”
It sort of worked out differently.
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:24 pm
@ Rollo
I have read this site since close to its beginning. It has not been surprising at all. The topics have never changed… How women use the feminine imperative.
Out of curiousity, what growth do you see in your readers? What do you view as the goal of your site?
Again, The readers and commenters are certainly not “alpha” males, certainly no longer “beta” males, and far too common to be “sigma” males.
What do you sites like RationalMale and Chateau Heartiste actually breed.
Is this the goal?
“these males are learning “placing value on his own personal fulfilment (arguably to match that of the modern ‘empowered’ western woman).”
In other words,
What is offered as the destination except learning how to navigate within the feminine imperative.
I perceive those as the goal. If my perception is incorrect, what do you assume is the goal.
If my perception is correct, how do those goals not lead to an affirmative answer to “If you were in the position to profit from the enforcement of the feminine imperative, would you enforce it? Would you pass the laws, write the programs, and maintain plausible deniability”?
Your site, as stated, is triage clinic. Your posts regarding the feminine imperative illicit an understandable immune response against subjugation. But it does nothing more.
Then, since no path out is offered, these males sit in your trauma ward until they eventually receive a “hospital acquired infection:” “overwriting or re-purposing by ideology” their ability to serve. Literally, a mental autoimmune disease whereby all subjugation is slavery and detrimental.
The fundamentals of your site were derived from modern psychology.
Modern psychology is nothing more than a systematically enforced judgement. That it screams “thou shalt not judge” in today’s society is almost a precondition for judgement. Just ask their lackeys, the feminists and egalitarians.
Modern psychology’s chief judgement: Human is bad. Life is bad. Its ideal: an emotionless, “perfectly” rationale robot. But these psychologists are no programmers, they do not even understand that rationality itself is only a value judgement.
That the “self-help” books you refer to surely promote something akin to your “positive masculinity” is only evidence of further mutation. Read the sources to which those works refer.
January 23rd, 2014 at 11:54 pm
This is relevant here…
What we see here are people in one phase and stage. There is a seemingly endless influx of them. But what we don’t see is what happens when people stop reading and posting or commenting. What isn’t apparent is that people do move out of this phase. But they surely do, and new members of the stasis arrive to replace them. So, as a reader of all of these comments, it is best to keep in mind that most of these people will not feel like this forever. They will flow out on paths they never report, and so it will SEEM as if there is never any growth or change. But there is.
Leave it to the female to consider the lack of any evidence proof that it is there.
January 24th, 2014 at 12:08 am
But you people need to sort of understand where she is coming from.
Glenn. when I had been in Red Pill for five weeks, I wrote these screaming ass comments on Rational Male that went viral. I was mad as a motherfucker. I had just as much shit thrown my way for longer than you have. And I also had just sort of gotten run over by Colombian Hypergamy which is a different breed of cat. So I saw it in two different cultures. And it was really interesting how when you can scrape away the cultural shit between American and Latin culture and then see the commonality of the Feminine Imperative. So trust me, you cannot be any fucking madder than I was.
And I read everything. I mean everything. I would see other people and had a serious case of RedPillitis where I would explain anything and everything through those lenses to the point that people would “Man, do you study this or something.?” I was a fucking Wikipedia of facts and cases.
I can remember Dalrock had a post where he wrote that he didn’t hate women and since he started the study he just understood them better and I comment “Yeah, well I remain at war.”
So you are not any madder than I was as well as a whole cohort of people. But keep reading, internalize the inner messages and Grasshopper, one day you too will snatch the peas from my hand.
And yes, the “Breath of Oxygen” that Rollo refers will eventually come to you. No, at 51 years of age you probably will not be out fucking supermodels. But if you keep reading and employ the teachings then you will find you will be happy merely by not being unhappy.
So back to Kate. It’s going pretty well here. It’s no where near perfect. We have rocked and rolled pretty much, on average, about once a week. But she seems content, yes, the child seems content (Her grades are actually up since I got here), the fucking dog is content.
And yes I can see Red Pill all over how she acts. It’s pretty obvious to me that she is stepping back in order for me to lead. She tends to be aware of mood swings as per menstruation cycle. She makes an obvious attempt to dress feminine, act feminine, to be a woman.
And I would never have attempted any of this had I not been 110% certain that she had not internalized these philosophies.
And she doesn’t do it because of any manipulation opportunity or “because she is scared shitless”. She does it, reads it, studies, internalizes it because intuitively she knows it is correct. She understands now after years in this community, what went wrong before and how to make better decisions with this knowledge. She says “Women intuitively understand about mining alpha”. And now she has a new paradigm, a new basis to understand and see the world as it is. My God, she reads everything you read. She gets up in the morning at 5:30 am and while she is having breakfast, she reads Rollo and Heartiste. You cannot read that much of this stuff and not have it affect you. In fact, one of my fundamental questions about the Manosphere is how can fucking Futrelle read all he reads in order to snark about it and not have it affect him, not have some of what he reads be corroborated by what he sees in the world?
So her questions is this, and it is a valid question, “Where to now?”
When she sees her relationship working out with some guy that was one of maddest motherfuckers to ever spit vile in the manosphere, who would deliberately go over into Manboobz and write, “I am not a misogynist. That is a term used by women to shame men whenever it is convenient. I am not a misogynist. I am a woman hater. I hate them not over institutional reasons. I hate them as they are to their very core.” she has a right to question “Where to now?” Perhaps men and women can find some common ground.
All right, so we all fucking got together and shared stories and now we all hate fucking women. And now nobody wants to be with nobody.
So Kate sort of thinks there just might be a middle way.
Cause she’s sort of found one right now and when you all jump up and down and scream it can’t be done….
She ain’t necessarily agreeing.
Now I ain’t so sure there is one and I kind of think the safer path for almost all men not named Mark Minter, that are not 58 years old, with nothing to lose from a split, that do not have a 35 year old woman who is a known participant in the Manosphere for fucking years, is to sort of practice Game or Go Their Own Way.
But she sort of believes that women are often just as disappointed with the way things are and many are looking for an answer to the anomoly and the paradox of Blue Pill.
Thomas Kuhn (1963) points out that the history of science suggests that when a theory confronts an anomaly or a paradox, the resolution will be a new paradigm that transcends what went before.
It’s a bitch being in the first wave of that new paradigm but somebody has to fucking do it.
January 24th, 2014 at 12:32 am
@DifferentT Re: “certainly no longer “beta” males” Again I stilldo not know, at all, what you think you are communicating with that. What “certainty”? What “no longer”?
January 24th, 2014 at 12:35 am
The infection of the No True Man fallacy will continue until morale improves.
January 24th, 2014 at 1:04 am
I had a dream once, where I got in touch with my feminine side. I played with my boobs all night.
The Navy Corpsman
January 24th, 2014 at 1:11 am
Rollo, great pointing. Just have to remember to look beyond the finger….
January 24th, 2014 at 6:19 am
“Where did he go wrong?”
When he posted in a shithole like Jezebel without the express intention of insulting them.
January 24th, 2014 at 6:36 am
And the evidence speaks…
But if you keep reading and employ the teachings then you will find you will be happy merely by not being unhappy.
It’s pretty obvious to me that she is stepping back in order for me to lead.
She does it, reads it, studies, internalizes it because intuitively she knows it is correct.
So Kate sort of thinks there just might be a middle way.
January 24th, 2014 at 7:02 am
“I never figured you would get so bent out of shape over the idea of it all”
Well, we now know he was in a great deal of pain at the time due to his leg. I guess we were adding insult to injury.
January 24th, 2014 at 7:58 am
“How can fucking Futrelle read all he reads in order to snark about it and not have it affect him?”
How can someone “read everything” red pill literature has to offer and write a twenty paragraph NAWALT deflection.
Do whatever makes you happy, but be honest about it.
So back to Kate… But she sort of believes… She’s sort of found…
Kate sort of thinks… She sees her relationship…
She has a right to … She ain’t necessarily…
So her questions is this… She makes an attempt… She says…
She gets up… She reads… She does it…
She had not internalized these philosophies…
I can see red pill all over how she acts… She seems content…
You just replugged.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:09 am
Here is a case study of a male using a variant of “self-help”/nihilsim/neo mysticism to perform “a lot of work doing your own self-analysis and then creating a strategy to remake yourself.”
http://xsplat.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/integrity-game-vs-feeding-them-the-dream/#comment-7945
He creates a thin veneer of value, and with just a few pokes (and a little flattery) reveals exactly what he has remade himself into.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:41 am
@Eris
Another reaffirmation about precisely what’s discussed here. I mean a clear text-book example. You know a nerve was touched and/or a nail was hit squarely on the head to awake Minter from his slumber to post such rationalizations. A male/female tag-team event!!!
January 24th, 2014 at 8:49 am
I don’t know what is more pathetic, Kate’s commentary or Mark Minter telling me a thing about how to live life.
@Mark Minter – Let’s be clear. You are a scumbag. Every ounce of your existence screams it. I don’t listen to guys like you in the manosphere and have no interest in your input or sage advice, lol. Your ex and your actions have made clear that you are no example of a man of any sort. Abandoning your kids. Pothead. Financial disaster. Web loudmouth, liar and brash poser. I mean, what makes you think I’d listen to a thing you have to say? Your commentary here reveals a thuggish crassness that you seem to believe is masculine, but to me it screams insecure has been who never was. Total BS. Be clear, I’ve been zooming by lowlifes like you for my entire life.
To all here, I think there are a lot of assumptions going on about where I’m at what I’ve gone through and how long I’ve been at this stuff. I have been digesting this all for a year but had a major shift about 5 weeks ago wrt understanding how I was alienated from my daughter and really getting how some of the denigration I’d received from female family members was driven by female imperative. I also just then started to really digest “game”. But don’t be confused. I was a natural Alpha who got sick and lost money/career standing and social status as a result, and eventually lost my confidence, which is where my real personal slide started. MGTOW, MRM and Rollo’s approach to game has been the way to regaining my confidence and seeing the world clearly.
Unlike Mintner, I paid 220k in child support and another 150k for other expenses and my daughter’s college. I had real success in a career and in other aspects of life (I’m a singer/songwriter, aspiring writer who’s come really close to some real success with it and other things). I had a good deal of success with high SMV women – but was unconscious of it all and had many issues with women as I went to great pains to describe in the above comment if anyone is interested. Of course this is all unfolding for me and I’ve been super honest about it here, but I’m not some husk of a man, Beta-iszed for my whole life who can’t talk to women. Read the little history I gave above before anyone here tries to give me any more advice
And Mark, please, why don’t you and Kate just sail off into the sunset? Why would either of you even be here or have any interest in Rollo? I mean both of you pose yourself as experts and seers and critics, smarter than any of the rest of us, right? (giggling) So yeah, move on now. I personally would appreciate it if neither of you ever directed a comment at me again. Put more plainly, neither of you seem to get that are not operating on the same plane as Rollo and are in fact like ants scurrying around his feet intellectually. Perhaps it’s time that you finally got that.
January 24th, 2014 at 9:06 am
@ Glenn Opening up to people is a free pass for them to talk down to you, so don’t be surprised.
January 24th, 2014 at 9:07 am
@ Rollo – Internal game. I’ve been reading this commentary and finally understand why it comes off as weird to me. Due to my own philosophical and intellectual journey I’m already well aware that all “change” comes from the inside. I also was a natural but incompetent Alpha in that I had no idea how to maintain my frame and internalized the female imperative in some awful ways. I’m not here to figure out how to pick up women but rather how to embrace positive masculinity – which is already present in me, even though I’ve shamed and suppressed it. Your work here is a treatise on that inside journey from a thousand different perspectives and lines of inquiry.
I don’t really enjoy the other sites on game as they seem to filled with Mark Minter types who I instantly recognize as pathetic (the language, the screaming, empty machismo, the crudeness). I get why now. While I’m surely interested in how to be better at picking up and attracting women, that is not a core dilemma for me. I realized long ago women are attracted to certain things and basically tell you when they want to fuck you very quickly, and that aggression is always the best approach. While not a great plate spinner, success with woman always had me act quickly when interested and move on without regret if I was rejected. I never really have taken much shit from women and it’s this trait that had me end my first marriage after increasing pressure on my then wife to stop being such a nasty bitch to me. No, I come here for a much bigger reason than getting laid.
I bet this happens with many Alphas who encounter the world of “game” who either don’t get it or find it pathetic. It’s too bad because it’s much more important to the rest of our lives to get female imperative and human sexual dynamics than I ever realized, and I bet is the only way to have a long term relationship succesfully if that’s what one wants. What’s most important to me is embracing positive masculinity. I had internalized shame and denigration of my own Alphaness and never really knew that. You – more than anyone else – has helped me see that. It’s amazing, simply amazing and the changes in my life that are manifesting are truly fantastic. 2014 will be a great year for me and you are part of the reason why. Thanks Rollo.
January 24th, 2014 at 10:45 am
@DifT, I read through the link you provided and you don’t look as good in it as you appear to think you do. The other participant has some very good points. I could be biased though, because your writing style, intentionally or not, oozes condescension. But you do have a strong facility for critical thinking, and for aikidoing the other side of a debate against itself.
You seem to be saying that many here in the sphere are using “self-help tricks”, a selective dose of “neomysticism” (is mysticism timestamped?), and a little real knowledge to transform themselves into nihilists/narcissists/hedonists, thus breaking free of dreaded betadom, yet coming no closer to mythic alpha (as if that should be everyone’s goal), and are still lost.
I can see that, you like being meta, and it’s a good challenge. So I’ll ask you, how is that any worse than remaining the suckers, doormats, mules and punching bags of society?
Further – and I won’t dress this up – if you’re so smart, what the fuck do you think these guys should be doing instead? How about a little constructivity from you, rather than just picking apart what everyone else writes? You seem to get some willies from rubbing peoples noses in their percieved inadequacies. Care to share some of your own unique knowledge and insight?
Perhaps your intentions should be inferred from your approach. Are you a nihilist yourself?
January 24th, 2014 at 11:01 am
I think, this issue comes about because modern man has been taught to cooperate with women. First of all, he has been taught to cooperate indiscriminately with all kinds of people, men or women – No one is to be excluded. And ‘more recently’, because of the increase of women in the workforce and a female’s change of social status into an “equal”, as in being the same, while in reality, biologically, a woman is not meant to be cooperated with. She’s not even happy about it, more so, she’s frustrated about a lack of personal dominance.
In short – Paternalism of some sort is badly needed.
January 24th, 2014 at 11:02 am
D-Man asks “what … do you think these guys should be doing instead?” The search for an alternative to Game has already been a major theme already in 2014 in the monogamous manosphere. I’ve posted this elsewhere but not here I think. All efforts to date can be summarized in the following reverse underpants gnomes’ Alternative to Game:
1. Having taken the redpill, attempt to incorporate good parts of Game while trying not to be become more dark triadish, and don’t call it Game.
2. ???
3. Collect panties.
I still have no idea what DifT means “no longer “beta” males” because she refuses to say. I think I know why, but I want her to say it.
January 24th, 2014 at 11:31 am
@DifferentT Re: “certainly no longer “beta” males” Again I stilldo not know, at all, what you think you are communicating with that. What “certainty”? What “no longer”?
Want him/her to actually say something instead of just asking questions?
Too Frazier Crane-ish.
January 24th, 2014 at 12:06 pm
@Rollo
You wrote: “They seek a man to be proud of, one who’s association reflects a statement of their own quality, yet one they still have implicit control over.”
Keep up the good work, like a football coach or Drill Sgt., keep driving this message home. This helps me make sense of a 30 year struggle to be in control: I was too unskilled to maintain control, and too proud to submit to a woman. It must be an instinctual part of a woman’s nature to figure out, over time, how to control their husband. No matter how strong, successful, devoted or self-sacrificing my dad was, my mom did this (she became handicapped at 48, and he took care of her until she died at 80). My wife does this, and my sister did this with her husband until he left her; now she does it with her live-in boyfriend.
Do you define Alpha as being “in control”? Implicit control, not explicit? I’ve argued unsuccessfully to have an understanding with women about our roles, her respect for me, and her appreciation of the sacrifices I make. Is it true that this power struggle really occurs on a deeper, subconscious level? That Alpha is not necessarily status, power, masculinity, or Game-skill, but harnessing them to maintain implicit control over the relationship? Your insight is much appreciated.
January 24th, 2014 at 1:17 pm
This comment here highlights your ignorance of psychology as a science. Most people’s impression of psychology comes from the touchy-feely humanist schools of psychology, founded in emotional states and lie-on-the-couch and talk about your feelings psychotherapy.
All that smacks of new age schadenfreude and, justifiably so. I’m every bit as critical of it in my own writing:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/06/cognitivism-vs-behaviorism/
Every psychological underpinning of any theory I’ve explored on this blog has always been from a rational, behaviorism perspective. More B.F. Skinner, less Maslow, more Martie Hasselton, less Carl Jung.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/28/humanism-behaviorism-and-the-amorality-of-game/
If you actually were familiar with my writing “from the start” you’d already know this.
With regard to my ‘patients’ progressing or moving beyond the red pill or Game I think you severely underestimate how their ‘time in the manosphere’ fundamentally changes them for the better. You can cherry pick blog comments you think agree with your perspective all you’d like – I’ve got 12 years of archived stories from men who’ve fundamentally changed their lives for the better as a result of killing their inner Beta, unlearning what their fem-centric conditioning had taught them and are living the lives they want to live.
For all of Minter’s ‘maturation’ he’s still internalized the necessary awarenesses of the red pill, what he chooses to do with that awareness is up to him, but it doesn’t change the truth of that awareness. He can petition me all he’d like to change my message to one that justifies his life’s decisions, but I’m not in the business of compromising truths to make anyone more comfortable about those decisions – I’m in the business of unplugging chumps from the Matrix.
As I stated many years ago in my last link, there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution to men’s unique set of problems and neither is every man going to optimize his SMV as a result of having taken the red pill or using Game. Anyone telling you they do is selling you something. My ideas, theories and essays are not a solution, they are a revelation – what men will do with that revelation is up to their own character, motivation and personal conditions. I have more respect for my readers than to coddle them into thinking I have their magic bullet for self-enlightenment and self-improvement.
January 24th, 2014 at 1:41 pm
@ Rollo – “I’m in the business of unplugging chumps from the Matrix.” Mission accomplished. I don’t need you to give me a new set of imperatives. Why you are so great is that you don’t set yourself up as a guru or have a bunch of things you want to sell us. You’ve made your motivations clear. The suicide of your brother in law motivated you to start this inquiry. Your education in psychology informs it. You want to help men in the most meaningful way you know how to do. For me, it’s an amazing way to round out and personalize much of what I learned from YouTube channels and Peter Wright and Christopher Ryan and others. It deepens it personally so significantly in my case and really has me deal with how I’ve internalized the female imperative that I’ve been shouting about it from the rooftop on my tiny YouTube channel. Fyi, I’m not here to promote my channel. I’m not out to make money or be a YouTube star.
Rather, it’s my personal story of many aspects of this and it’s gotten a great response as a very accessible source of this kind of insight as too many MGTOW and game and MRM YouTubers are doing the faux academic, lecturer thing – without having any actual basis for setting themselves up as authorities. Causistry and crap evo psych and rage rule the day for many of them, which distracts some men from what’s really going on so I just tell them what I’m learning, how it’s affecting my life and what I’m doing. It seems to be really helpful to some men. More than that is of no interest to me.
I don’t need a self-help program, I’ve been through all that. Anyone who needs a good one can do Tony Robbins or Landmark Education or others and get all that motivational, get out of your way stuff. I think men should learn how to be personally effective and organized and how to affect the larger world with their plans and ambitions, so I applaud people who do that sort of thing. But what you are doing is revelations, education, analysis – and I’m free to do with it what I want. I know I must sound like some fawning fanboy but that is the farthest thing from what I am. I have no heroes – I outgrew that too. I don’t give a shit about your personality or business. I just get a huge amount out of what you have to say here. I do find it fascinating that so many people have to try and spin it and make it something it’s not. This must be very threatening to those people. For guys like me? It’s just what I need, so again, thanks.
January 24th, 2014 at 2:01 pm
Partly,..
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/26/whats-your-problem/
January 24th, 2014 at 2:16 pm
@Mike, I’m no Rollo (and I take the opportunity to thank him for unplugging me too. Rational Male was my guilty alternative to reading Dalrock last year, and it took me figuring out what he meant by the society-engulfing Feminist Imperative matrix to unplug). But I think I know enough to confidently state that her respect for you is negatively correlated with the sacrifices you make for her. Negatively.
Her respect for you is instead reflected in the sacrifices she makes for you. To the extent that her appreciation of your services motivates her to service you, then her appreciation can increase her respect. But if her appreciation of your services merely results in “Thanks! Do that some more!” then you can see her appreciation is actually stemming from her disrespect of you.
In primates, beta males service females, grooming them, scratching their back, bringing them non-bacon bananas, etc. In total stark contrast, females service alpha males.
January 24th, 2014 at 2:21 pm
And one last point on this thread and I’m done. Many commenters here “draft” on Rollo’s authority/credibility/standing that he’s earned via the incredible work he’s done for years. His writing earned him that and he’s willing to be taken on by all comers to search for a better truth than he’s offering. Those of you like Different T and Kate and now this Minter loser, please understand – you don’t have anywhere near his standing to be taken seriously. You argue with him as though you are to be taken seriously, as though your commentary meets the quality of his somehow but what you don’t get is that it doesn’t. It’s babble, sophistry and self-indulgent rhetorical masturbation. And it’s no coincidence that all of you do this on other sites as commenters. You seem to all have some fetish or compulsion or attachment to using the web to have some kind of social standing that I doubt any of you have ever had in the real world.
This is obvious to those of us who actually accomplish shit in the real world, btw. If you want to be taken seriously, here’s what I suggest you trolls do:
1. Start your own websites
2. Create massive amounts of original content that reflects your synthesis of these ideas into a coherent POV and narrative. Deepen it and broaden it and do so from a motivation of purely helping men or who ever it is you want to help.
3. Build some kind of following and traffic to your site.
But whatever you do, for fucks sake, just stop posing here as seers and drafting off of Rollo’s credibility was way of aggrandizing your own sense of importance. It’s transparent that this is what you are up to and of NO VALUE to me, and I suspect many men who are here.
January 24th, 2014 at 3:48 pm
False assumptions lead to petty conclusions.
Rollo: I’ve notified Gynocentrism dot com that they are falsely attributing one of Mark’s essays to you.
Drafting. LOL
January 24th, 2014 at 4:07 pm
It seems that most of the Dads-That-People-Never-Had of the community have this strong believe that things changed dramatically about 50 years ago due to some social – economic disposition which lead to the more feministic oriented society. Considering ideas of Freud related to sex, does it mean that 100 years ago people were happier (more sexually satisfied) because, apparently, active “beta propaganda” did not exist back then and thus Beta to Alpha ratio would be on the brighter side?
What appears to me is that Alpha to Beta relation will more or less fall under Gaussian distribution where one end is Alphas, another one is Omegas, and the middle is Betas, which correlates with my observations, and frankly speaking I cannot see any different social patterns anywhere in the history that could give me a hint about something else. Simplifying it: leaders, in most of the cases, will be Alphas, making the rest Betas. It just happened to be that this millennia trend for Betas is being socially molested by females, okay, too f*cking bad, but there are probably reasons behind that, regardless of them, we need to deal with what we’ve got. It seems that the whole community is looking back with some sort of nostalgic tear, thinking that back then grass was greener and tits were tighter. However it might be that current purposeless and comfort leaving and focus on chicks instead added up to the cocktail. Which brings me to the idea that creating a party, a religion, or some sort of properly designed movement that is not related to females/sex would help much more than a “how to pick up chix” guide or “why (wo)men suck” book.
Could you add something to this, Rollo?
January 24th, 2014 at 5:48 pm
“And, keep in mind, the men you are admiring (Rollo and Deti) are married men who have never been divorced. I don’t say that necessarily to discredit them, but to caution you about knowing from whom you are taking advice. “
I’ve never been divorced, but my wife chose to walk us right up to the edge of that abyss. I’m not divorced because by God’s grace and my learning a bit of masculinity/Game, I was able to walk us back from that abyss. SHE didn’t walk us back, I did.
Glenn can do a lot worse than to learn a bit of backbone and mettle by reading here.
And I cosign Morpheus’ and Rollo’s comments.
January 24th, 2014 at 6:07 pm
And you deserve a lot of credit for that, deti. But, you still don’t know what its like to be divorced.
I don’t know which comments you’re referring to, nor will I be wondering back through this exorcism of toxicity to find them.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:13 pm
@ D-ManS
So I’ll ask you, how is that any worse than remaining the suckers, doormats, mules and punching bags of society?
These are the same weak people who are just doing their best to get a new role in the same shitty play. Additionally, they come to subtly defend the same shitty play because they know themselves incapable of performing roles in a different script. Being able to perform a different function or role would involve developing new capacities. It’s not going to come from learning about “hypergamy.”
This site, as stated, is triage clinic. The posts regarding the feminine imperative illicit an understandable immune response against subjugation. But it does nothing more.
Then, since no path out is offered, these males sit in your trauma ward until they eventually receive a “hospital acquired infection:” “overwriting or re-purposing by ideology” their ability to serve. Literally, developing a mental autoimmune disease whereby all subjugation is slavery and detrimental.
Again, “these males are learning “placing value on his own personal fulfilment (arguably to match that of the modern ‘empowered’ western woman).”
In other words,
What is offered as the destination except learning how to navigate within the feminine imperative.
I perceive those as the goal. If my perception is incorrect, what do you assume is the goal.
If my perception is correct, how do those goals not lead to an affirmative answer to “If you were in the position to profit from the enforcement of the feminine imperative, would you enforce it? Would you pass the laws, write the programs, and maintain plausible deniability”?
That last question is key because all available evidence points to the fact that the great majority of posters view things in a fundamentally similar way to those they despise. How to account for this? They are upset they are not profiting from the misery instead of being miserable.
How about a little constructivity from you, rather than just picking apart what everyone else writes?
It’s been provided multiple times, in multiple settings, and multiple scenarios. It has been ignored. Here is an example that illicited no response…
You can start by thinking about a baby. A baby simply is someone’s responsibility, otherwise it becomes a dead pile of flesh.
Other key components would be the nature of consciousness and the nature of experience.
The path I took largely involved understanding why equality is incomprehensible. Meaning, if any means you could imagine where available to create “equality,” it would not work. It is literally incomprehensible.
And another…
You do not have access to the relevant conceptions, as those were developed in the legal, financial, and economic fields. Therefore, your reinterpretations utilize the concepts you do have access to regarding obligation, rights, and responsibilities. Conceptions which are basically similar to a bratty child or Western female.
And another…
As the “red pill” disillusions some with regards to women, further expectations may become more in sync with reality if the person continues to look at the “world.” So much of this shit, at bottom, is about looking inward. What happens when a person looks at a jumbled mess all the time?
Consider learning about things completely unrelated to females, and especially avoiding “self-help” explanations for why.
This is not surprising as all evidence is lacking that these males are interested in learning as that would mean one of their chief weaknesses is stupidity or ignorance and would go against their firmly displayed belief that deep down, they are actually “alpha” by way of birth.
This site, fundamentally, is about “deprogramming” or “unplugging” oneself from culture, nothing more. Consider the Matrix movies. What was Zion actually? A bunch of dumb fucking egalitarians in an orgy.
You seem to get some willies from rubbing peoples noses in their percieved inadequacies.
Do you perceive these males as interested in actually learning about things outside of how terrible women are and how to best have sex with them (with a commensurate camaraderie in bitching)? I do not.
Care to share some of your own unique knowledge and insight?
Consider…
The concerns with “dropping insightful and thought provoking posts” involve adherence and vulnerability.
The diseased reason of the individuals and groups the relevant posts offend will instantly begin reinterpreting, rationalizing, and creating new defenses against whatever line of perception is being discussed. This will add another “layer” of mutation to the offended’s position.
If such “insightful and thought provoking posts” do not illicit compliance and adherence from those who affect the path of “posterity” (in other words, if it is not incorporated into the education) all that is accomplished is making those concepts ever more elusive for said posterity.
Perhaps your intentions should be inferred from your approach. Are you a nihilist yourself?
No.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:16 pm
And that’s another thing Kate and Different T have in common. Must be a woman-thing, eh?
Apart from the semi-learned scorning of the ignorant and learned alike, a-propos-of-precisely-nothing, and the interminable cajoling to just Man the Fuck Up, and do as they say .. or else ..
.. they neither of them can spell worth a fuck.
Constantly tripped up by homophones and heteronyms, the sort of infelicities that spellcheckers and the like are not yet tweaked to pick up.
Not normally a thing I would moan about (I’m a big fan of da GBFM, for starters, I genuinely don’t care about it), but if people are going to stand on their dignity as a tactic, well .. oo-er, missus, don’t show yer slip.
Whereas Minter, being an old fucker like me, can spell.
Aha! I have a solution!
Kate and DiffT, forward your posts submissively to Grampy Mark first for a once-over. Then I’ll be able to differentiate your valuable contributions to ‘this great movement of ours’. TIA.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:16 pm
@ Rollo
This comment here highlights your ignorance of psychology as a science.
Which of your posts utilize this “scientific” psychology?
January 24th, 2014 at 8:19 pm
for aikidoing the other side of a debate against itself.
Where is the evidence of this? Those contradictions and stupidities existed before anyone pointed them out.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:29 pm
@D-Man
Since these have already been posted…
—————
In a new approach to the same dead horse:
*** Women often “fitness test” or “shit test” men. Men interested in mating with a woman need to learn how to recognize when she does this. When he ascertains that in fact she is attempting to fitness test him, there are several known responses that other men have employed with varying degrees of success, such as “agree and amplify.”***
Here is a differerent interpretation of this behavior.
When the female’s drive for rebellion against her established role gains dominance, the relevant behavior is displayed. Her drive to fulfill her role’s obligations is not allowing the drive for rebellion to display itself, the drive to fulfill her role’s obligation is being subjugated. When the male displays behavior which thwarts the drive for rebellion’s attempt, the female doesn’t willingly or conciousely subjugate the drive for rebellion to her drive to fulfill her role’s obligations, the rebellion drive is weakened and the drive to fulfill her role’s obligations becomes dominate.
Contrast this with your interpretation that the behavior is a “fitness test;” The term itself is full of assumptions. First, that the female is able to determine fitness. Second, that the rebellious behavior is a means, not an ends… merely a test.
Your interpretation of the behavior is similar to an antelope teaching its young to run from the lion until the lion is tired and gives up. The adult antelope then explains the lion is merely “testing” the antelope.
It is harmful because the term itself will automatically conjure a conception that is unrelated to reality. Again, “fitness test” assumes that the female is the “judge” and is capable of determining “fitness”.
The relevant conceptions of “judge” are:
adjudicator: a person, sometimes one of several, appointed to assess entries or performances in a competition and decide who wins
somebody giving informed opinion: somebody who can give an informed opinion on something
The relevant conceptions of “fitness” are:
suitability: suitability of somebody or something for a particular purpose
The relevant conception of “test” is:
A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something
Again, the behavior you refer to as a “fitness” test is not a “procedure for critical evaluation.”
Most importantly, the term itself implies that the female is “judging.” That she is capable of “judging.”
January 24th, 2014 at 8:34 pm
@ D-Man
Already posted elsewhere….
———————-
Hypergamy: a woman’s natural preference for a male that is of higher
status than other men and also higher status than herself.
Based on what hierarchy? Many manosphere sites take for granted that
it is based on (in a feminized society, the easily counterfeited and imitated
behaviors indicating) social dominance.
Consider that the definition used is vital to the integrity
and predictive power of the model. This definition seems to consider female
sexuality as taking place in a vacuum apart from other biological
considerations, instead of as an interplay between many competing
considerations. Specifically, it applies to a world of material abundance, present security, and a society which holds the value set of the feminine imperative. Considering this is supposedly a biological dynamic, it only applies to very specific environments. It would not apply in environments where provisioning and security are leading factors in mate choice; it would not apply where males made the decisions regarding mate choice; and it would not apply in societies that do not hold egalitarianism as ideal (in other words, almost the entirety of human civilization).
The usual application of this definition (supposedly of a biological dynamic) requires that decisions and behaviors influenced by something other than “social dominance” be viewed as an unnatural “barrier,” “buffer,”or “wall” to hypergamy. Arranged marriage? Outside the “biological dynamic” and merely a “barrier.” Monogamy? Outside the “biological dynamic” and merely a “buffer.” Marriage laws? Merely a “wall” to the “biological dynamic.” Choosing a mate based on provisioning? Another “buffer” to the “true” dynamic.
Hypergamy is as equally destructive to civilized society
Transitive property yields: a woman’s natural preference for a male that is of higher status is [omitted] destructive to civilized society. Are you sure about that?
If your issue is women not honoring marriage contracts, state that.
If your issue is the state incentivizing single motherhood and divorce, state that.
If your issue is society normalizing and promoting the feminine imperative, state that.
But stating “a woman’s natural preference for a male that is of higher status is
[omitted] destructive to civilized society,” is going to lead you toward, if
not directly to, egalitarianism.
Do you find this analysis valuable? Do you consider it related to:
Get the philosophy wrong, and you will get the wrong result.
First things matter.
January 24th, 2014 at 9:29 pm
@ Rollo
Your timing is truly impeccable…
Every psychological underpinning of any theory I’ve explored on this blog has always been from a rational, behaviorism perspective. More B.F. Skinner, less Maslow, more Martie Hasselton, less Carl Jung.
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/ayn_rand.htm
January 24th, 2014 at 11:40 pm
Complete absence of LivingTree and increasingly obsessive blathering from Different T in this thread,..
noted without comment.
January 25th, 2014 at 2:14 am
Empathy/sympathy
January 25th, 2014 at 2:51 am
“Modern psychology is nothing more than a systematically enforced judgement. That it screams “thou shalt not judge” in today’s society is almost a precondition for judgement. Just ask their lackeys, the feminists and egalitarians.
Modern psychology’s chief judgement: Human is bad. Life is bad. Its ideal: an emotionless, “perfectly” rationale robot. But these psychologists are no programmers, they do not even understand that rationality itself is only a value judgement.”
Wrong.
Rationality is a feature of the mind which evolved to give an advantage in dealing with the world by seeing patterns and understanding why and how things happen.
Modern=the current, the popular
The modern value is “Humans are fundamentally good” and nature is evil.
Nature must be corrected. Woman is innately hypergamous and instead of acknowledging this reality and dealing with it, “Modern Psychology” makes up some “ideal” female and male and how things should work instead of how things do work.
January 25th, 2014 at 7:12 am
And for the record, Mark, I am more than content. Literally, no other man in the world could do what you have done. No one has the necessary knowledge of psychology, of parenting, of leadership. No one has the necessary heart, or integrity, or grit.
Rollo will falsely call it oneitis, but who else could have reminded me when Mr. Millionaire wrote this summer, that, had I gone with him before, everything that my family and I have worked for my entire life could have been lost. Who could appreciate all that I have done to keep my daughter’s father in her life so that she would grow up having him there? Or the sacrifices I made so that her inheritance remains the same as if I had never divorced?
And when I see people cast aspersion on you as having reverted to blue pill, I have to question: how many of them have a woman willing to work for them to keep them free? Its too bad the job fell through because other people are gutless, but we haven’t really lost anything. All these men- the ones who say we have it backwards- still live plugged in to the system where the man has to pay the woman to be with him. I am with you freely and gladly, expecting nothing from you, yet happily benefiting from your presence, your incredible intellect, your humor, and your excellent management and care of our family.
Top that motherfuckers.
January 25th, 2014 at 8:09 am
I’m starting to believe there is a matrix inside the matrix, a nightmare within the dream, a ship in the bottle. A fail safe that has been engineered so that we can never really unplug, damn it all to hell.
January 25th, 2014 at 8:09 am
“This is not surprising as all evidence is lacking that these males are interested in learning as that would mean one of their chief weaknesses is stupidity or ignorance and would go against their firmly displayed belief that deep down, they are actually “alpha” by way of birth.”
The firmly displayed belief by men who have taken the red pill is that they can fake it until they make it. Such beliefs, however untrue, provide at least the sliver of willpower and confidence needed to investigate social relationships and communication in an active manner. IE go talk to this girl and try to make her laugh.
“These males” that are so “weak” would seem to need the “triage” therapy in order to be able to analyze their behavior from a rational, self interested viewpoint. If “weak” males do not analyze their own behavior from their own point of view then they adopt a newly created identity fashioned for them by women and society. “Nice Guys don’t get laid? Stop being a selfish creep” was the response given to weak males interested in sexual contact. If weak males lacked exposure to the ways in which they were being manipulated then they’d continue being manipulated.
The genius of this post (maybe the reason why you’re bitter about it) is that weak males view themselves sympathetically while also understanding intellectually that there is a problem. A feminist could either sympathize with the weak male (IE don’t pursue gender roles because it’s harmful) or empathize with the feminine (so what you’re weak! my problems are far worse than yours no matter what!) while lying about the fact that male strength is necessary or the man could be told to man up (by a woman or man traditionalist) neglecting his emotional response.
In the end, I think you’d be better off leaving the red pill sphere. Your deeply held belief is that men who read and listen to the manosphere are paper alphas regurgitating their same, shitty existence which propagates that which they rail against. The irony of this is the fact that the manosphere is almost specifically designed around self-improvement – be it physical, spiritual, or economic. Men are encouraged to do nothing but *build* value and maintain a sense of purpose and self worth. The female hypergamy element is merely the initial, wodded up balls of newspaper for the fire and the female body as recreation merely a component of the reward.
This is all well understood by people in the manosphere and increasingly understood by men more generally. Your advice “forget about females” is true but falls on deaf ears here, men can only forget about females and pursue their truth when they’ve de-pedestalized the vagina and internalized their problems.
January 25th, 2014 at 9:16 am
Your deeply held belief is that men who read and listen to the manosphere are paper alphas regurgitating their same, shitty existence which propagates that which they rail against.
No. Again, The posts regarding the feminine imperative illicit an understandable immune response against subjugation. But it does nothing more.
Then, since no path out is offered, these males sit in your trauma ward until they eventually receive a “hospital acquired infection:” “overwriting or re-purposing by ideology” their ability to serve. Literally, developing a mental autoimmune disease whereby all subjugation is slavery and detrimental.
Rollo just stated that he is heavily influenced by BF Skinner. Consider reading his sources.
January 25th, 2014 at 9:22 am
Further evidence of what these sites are actually breeding.
The modern value is “Humans are fundamentally good” and nature is evil.
Nature must be corrected. Woman is innately hypergamous and instead of acknowledging this reality and dealing with it, “Modern Psychology” makes up some “ideal” female and male and how things should work instead of how things do work.
No. Modern psychology does not have an ideal male and female. It has an ideal. By definition, a genderless ideal. That’s the point.
January 25th, 2014 at 9:32 am
“These males sit in your trauma ward until they eventually receive a “hospital acquired infection:” “overwriting or re-purposing by ideology” their ability to serve.”
Meanwhile, away from your computer screen, their are actually real problems that men face in society in general and have no one to turn to. If you care that much about the wellbeing of men, why not get out of your chair, leave your house and do something useful in your community instead of spending your whole day spouting your Wikipedia-pyschology expertise to people who don’t care and who also benefit enormously from Rollo’s writings.
I don’t understand why people bother to keep trying to debate you.
January 25th, 2014 at 9:35 am
I’m starting to believe there is a matrix inside the matrix, a nightmare within the dream, a ship in the bottle. A fail safe that has been engineered
_NEXT
January 25th, 2014 at 9:38 am
Meanwhile, away from your computer screen, their are actually real problems that men face in society in general and have no one to turn to.
To whom is this directed?
The system is functioning as designed, including the “manosphere.”
January 25th, 2014 at 9:39 am
Women are human beings that are subject to biological preferences and idiosyncrasies just like men are. “Blue pill reality” is just the state of being ignorant of that fact and the specifics involved in it.
I don’t get hung up on exactly what those biological preferences and idiosyncrasies are. If you’re looking for 100% proof of something before you’re willing to test drive it, you’re going to be waiting a very, very long time.
This is also the same thing I realized with nutrition. It’s one of the most complicated sciences out there, and if you want to take control of your health, you have to settle for experimenting. You can’t wait for eternity to decide what you’re going to have for breakfast.
I don’t know how other people interpret this blog. I use it as a tool to focus on intergender relationships as a skill that I can develop, and to ease my sexual frustration by taking women off of the pedestal I’ve put them on my whole life — which again was just a result of being ignorant of the fact that they have biological preferences and idiosyncrasies just like I do.
I don’t have to be convinced that everything on this blog is the 100% definitive truth about how women function in relationships to get the main message: that what I used to think was extraordinary is in fact just ordinary. Pair bonding behavior is an observable phenomenon just like anything else.
For me, anyway, the specific observations are secondary to the act of observing itself. That’s because I’ve spent most of my life being hopelessly frustrated about women and thinking that sex and relationships were somehow inherently more fulfilling than other forms of human connection, and the simple process of seeing sex and relationships as an ordinary part of life levels the playing field.
I hope I was clear enough there to get the point across. Anyway, that’s why I usually feel peace of mind when I read through the blog posts here. Seeing someone break down intergender dynamics and analyze them is a way to “show” instead of “tell” someone that this is an ordinary, observable part of life, instead of some unattainable fantasy to spend your whole life fruitlessly chasing after.
I’ve been spending a lot more time doing things I enjoy like independent research and playing music. I used to feel a lot more frustrated because I felt like I was missing out on this big party that everyone else but me was invited to. I don’t really feel that way anymore. I’ve slowly been becoming more social and have been a lot more appreciative of the people in my life since I started to see sex/women/relationships in a more realistic light.
The sex/love/relationship program is figuratively taking up a lot less of my RAM these days, and I have a lot more room to process other tasks. Now I see being single as a conscious choice to devote my time to other pursuits instead of a result of being defective, and that sex/relationships are things I can have in my life if I choose to put the time in to pursue them.
I feel a lot better, anyway. Not that I’m enlightened and living in a state of bliss, but I feel a lot more comfortable in my own skin these days.
January 25th, 2014 at 9:49 am
“Meanwhile, away from your computer screen, their are actually real problems that men face in society in general and have no one to turn to.
To whom is this directed?
The system is functioning as designed, including the “manosphere.”
Different T, you are a fool – and conceited one at that. Before writing comments like “the system is functioning as designed” which resemble little more than a teenage attempt to sound worldly, first go get some life experience and then come back and tell everyone about “the system”.
January 25th, 2014 at 9:55 am
How fascinating, scooterpie! How many layers thick do you think it is? I’m of the opinion that the ultimate unplugging occurs at death, but then I think there’s probably even more after that. You remind me of this line from Poe I always found intriguing: “All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.”
January 25th, 2014 at 11:13 am
I see someone is continuing to try to pretend, unsuccessfully, to believe that unplugging is part of being plugged in, and nobody is buying it. That’s a good thing. The first sign of growing awareness of the Matrix is to deny its existence in the very face of evidence of its existence, in order to retain a semblance of the comfort of old beliefs. Very soon after, mere acknowledgement of and kowtowing to the Matrix idea undermines the ability to critically examine it. The next sign of growing realization that unplugging is possible is to deny that unplugging is possible.
January 25th, 2014 at 11:19 am
@Softek “sex/relationships are things I can have in my life if I choose to put the time in to pursue them.
I feel a lot better, anyway. Not that I’m enlightened and living in a state of bliss, but I feel a lot more comfortable in my own skin these days.”
Yes, the abundance mentality is probably the best part of unplugging from the Feminine Imperative and focusing on your autonomy.
January 25th, 2014 at 11:25 am
“expecting nothing from you, yet happily benefiting from your … [and your … and your …] and your excellent management and care of our family [and chocolate]”
January 25th, 2014 at 11:53 am
Kate:
It’s fascinating you feel the need to justify your relationship and all you have done to start and maintain it.
And that you feel the need to justify it here, to Rollo, and to his commentariat. As if you expect some sort of credit or accolades. It’s all about you, isn’t it? You and your accomplishments, your abilities, your pulling through all manner of adversity with pluck, spunk and aplomb. You seem eager to claim the mantle of “heroic single mom”. Do you and mark seek his blessing? Our blessing ?
The fact is you and mark are exceedingly fortunate to have found anyone at all. I’d say you’ve both done about as well as you could expect.
By all means– live your lives, sin no more, and be blessed.