It never fails. Whenever I think I have a good post developing in my drafts folder, along comes a reader’s comment that abruptly halts that process and demands my full attention. Rational Reader, Eric had one such comment today:


Military men ought to be a targeted audience for your red-pill teachings.

As an Army veteran, I can attest that being socialized as a soldier is to learn positive masculinity in terms of a man among men. While not immune from political correctness, there is a stand-off distance from civilian society that preserves within the military perhaps our last best repository of traditional masculine values and culture.

Before I joined the Army, the military seemed alien and threatening. What I found, instead, is the nature of soldiering just made sense to me on a basic level as a man that I had not experienced before the Army. Soldiering opened my eyes to the intrinsic higher value of manhood. I have not found the same masculine fit since returning to civilian society. (Granted, I didn’t become a cop.)

However, the Army does not cure Beta. The military – as you imply – does not teach soldiers how to handle women and deal with feminism. When soldiers apply the 7 Army values (loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage) to women, they simply don’t receive the same positive feedback they get from applying the Army values on the job among soldiers. If anything, their heightened engagement with masculinity in male terms obscures their understanding of women. Editorially, I believe the disjunction between the masculine culture of the military and the feminized culture of civilian society is an unacknowledged reason why many seemingly capable veterans are tripped up in their transition from military life to the civilian world.

The masculine values that soldiers learn are invaluable, and our society would be made healthier and stronger if veterans could spread those values upon their return to civilian society. However, in their current condition, military-sourced masculine values are fragile in the context of feminized civilian society.

I believe the solution is adding formative red-pill teachings to the traditional masculine lessons received by impressionable young soldiers. Doing so will empower and protect the soldiers in their immediate personal lives, especially important for the soldiers who are anxiously distant (Dear John, Jody) from their love objects. And, by the time they are mature veterans returning to civilian society, their traditional masculine values hybridized with red-pill awareness should be robust enough to thrive in feminized civilian society. From their success, the combination of red pill and traditional masculine values can spread.

I attempted to address this in Casualties.

For whatever reason I seem to be held in high respect with military guys. It’s kind of strange thinking about this post-red pill, but a majority of my male friends have been soldiers and marines, and the common theme with every one of them has been their ‘get it done’ attitude and the conflicts it has with a beta relationship they all had with women.

I’ve got a guy in another dept. who was a former Marine who served 3 tours in Iraq and is an amazingly organized and responsible guy. Alpha as fuck in all respects but one; he too is saddled with an overweight fianceé (soon to be his 2nd wife I might add) who barks at him via cell phone while he takes his smoke breaks. I hear them bickering occasionally and all the guy does is attempt to appease her – this former Marine, who had live ammunition fired at him, is crushed mentally and emotionally by a woman who should never have a position to question him. Why? because he subscribes to the societal fem-centric default mentality when entreating with women.

At the risk of encouraging some ecumenical debate in the comment thread, the great failing of most military guys is the expectation of relational equity with regards to their commitment to the 7 Army values. In a military sense, in a sportsmanship sense, in a business sense men believe that the personal investments of sacrifice, loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage, etc. will be appreciated, considered and rewarded with respect, value and/or status. Whether or not this is the actual case on an individual basis, the expectation from amongst a man’s peers is one of an appreciable equity he can build upon and have his eminence increase upon.

The rude awakening for most soliders is that Hypergamy doesn’t care about relational equity. All of the social value he should be able to accrue through his steadfast commitment (actual or imagined) to principle isn’t recognized by feminine hypergamy. Hypergamy doesn’t care about his belief in the 7 Army values, it only cares about its own imperative. It’s not that women can’t learn to appreciate these virtues in a man, it’s that her natural state of hypergamy (and solipsism) doesn’t facilitate it.

I have no doubt I’ll get female commenters explaining to me how they in fact do recognize and appreciate men’s commitment to duty, but I’d argue that this appreciation came from learned necessity, not a natural appeal to her hypergamy. When hypergamy is satisfied for a woman, mitigated by her capacity to attract better male prospects, only then is a woman in a position to consider men’s integrity and character.

This is naturally frustrating for a young soldier wondering why his sacrifice and commitment to duty doesn’t make him any more attractive, more arousing, more deserving of his girlfriend or wife’s monogamous commitment. He’s done everything ‘right’ yet there is no advancement, no appreciation, and in fact sometimes outright abandonment of him and his ‘principles’. The reflex of course is to amplify that sacrifice to levels above and beyond what he’s previously committed himself to, or to rationalize disqualifying a woman lacking the capacity to appreciate that sacrifice.

The real tragedy is that young soldiers (and sometimes old) are easy marks for the feminine imperative looking to consolidate on a security derived from those sacrifices without ever appreciating them. I have a friend back in Reno who after 16 years, and 4 children, had his wife leave him after a military marriage. In her unhaaaaapiness she decided to go to back to school (funded by him) to be a dental assistant and promptly divorced him just 3 months prior to his discharge. They share custody now, but she ended up getting with a dental surgeon soon after the divorce. His disappointment and depression didn’t come from her abandoning him and the kids as much as it came from his bewilderment that she’d leave everything he’d built for them as a family, and himself personally. He couldn’t imagine that his investments had been less valuable to her than a life with a more resource rich man.

Parting Shot: Military Suicides exceeded combat deaths this year. While this is sobering, what most media covering the story fail to illuminate is the overwhelmingly disproportionate number of men who take their lives in comparison to women.

Tom says the military’s suicide problem is a complex one. “Most of those committing suicide are young men, 18-24,” he says, who are worried that asking for help will undermine their career.

While some of the deaths can be linked to the stresses of being deployed in a war zone, a third or more of those who killed themselves were never deployed, Tom says. They seem to have been made desperate by financial or personal problems.

Personal problems, yeah, personal problems.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

120 comments on “Soldiers

  1. My cousin is a marine, and red-pill as hell (having no knowledge of the manosphere). He’s been back in the states for 4 years now. He’d do well to have a framework for his mindset aka the manosphere

  2. I have another theory on suicides and its much more physical than emotional, but having a 22YO in the 101’st, I can tell you that the vast majority of his Army buddies that are herbs at worst, beta at best. The quality of soldier is pathetic. Stress cards? Really?

  3. It’s not that women can’t learn to appreciate these virtues in a man, it’s that her natural state of hypergamy (and solipsism) doesn’t facilitate it.

    We can’t learn these from a man we don’t respect and we can’t respect a man who holds us higher than himself.

  4. As a 14 year veteran, I agree with this article. My marriage gave me more problems than my service ever did. And the only reason I ever considered suicide was “personal problems” (read: women).

  5. One big thing I’ve learned…things such as the 7 army values, the boy scout law, chivalry, code of conduct only apply when it comes to men relating to other men. I can’t tell you how many times when I help a guy with a project…I’ll get some reward with food, beer, tickets to a game, etc. And I would do the same with my male friends.

    What saves me a ton of grief is expecting a woman to return the favor….that’s beta nice guy thinking 101. Do what you want to do with a woman and don’t expect a reward in return. If it happens…well then it’s a nice bonus.

  6. Erudite:

    It isn’t that they don’t have a clue. It is that they don’t care.


    “The real tragedy is that young soldiers (and sometimes old) are easy marks for the feminine imperative looking to consolidate on a security derived from those sacrifices without ever appreciating them.”

    This is true. It is the traditional masculine frame of the soldier that makes them vulnerable. The 7 rules, make them easily exploited by women, I have witnessed first hand the craziness that young women bring to their soldier husbands.

  7. The Value I had the biggest problem with while I was in the Army was Selfless Service. I know we’re sometimes called on to throw ourselves on top of a live grenade to save our buddies, but I don’t consider this “selfless” (selfless and selfish are the two most worthless words in the English language; I’ll have a post on that soon).

    However, like Earl describes, Selfless Service in the civilian world (and even the military sometimes) becomes straight Beta. You’re not only called on to “serve” your wife, you believe it’s obligatory to surrender yourSelf in the process.

    When we think “selflessness”, we think of saving drowning children, but it has extremely destructive variations as well. Part of your “Self” is what you value, and being selfless sometimes requires you to surrender what you cherish the most. The German soldiers who shot Jewish children in the back of the head considered themselves “selfless”. After all, who were they to impose their “selfish” value system on the will of the group and refrain from doing the dirty work?

    As men, we’re holding to our end of an expired contract between the sexes. “Selfless” perhasp, but doing ourselves, our women, and our society a tremendous disservice in the process.

  8. Also, the virtues taught in the military are unfortunately not virtues. There is nothing virtuous about being a part of a service whose job it is to kill the enemy.

    The military may be necessary, but it is not virtuous. There is nothing virtuous about war.

  9. Yep, nothing says “Alpha” more than eating shit because someone with more stripes tells you to.

    I did six years and got out because I was sick of khakis straight out of OCS jumping down my PO1s ass to make a mark. Guess I wasn’t alpha enough to be a bitch.

  10. I can’t tell you how many wife’s of soldiers I have seen cheat or divorce them while they are gone… Blame it on Jody if you want, but some point you can’t ignore the women’s lack of character and hypergamy

  11. @Solo: The more you learn, the more you realize you’re better off not spending more time with women than it takes to fuck them. If you can’t deal with them without getting attached, it might just be the best thing for you to *not* deal with them at all.

    You don’t want to end up as a custodial case for some girl who has no interest in being your 2nd mother. Obviously I mention that since this society is creating more custodial cases day by day. More men who need women like babies need their mothers.

  12. It seems the feminine imperative is parasitic on masculine values. Can masculine values co-exist and even be ruggedized by the red pill? Or, when we take the red pill, must they be purged with the blue pill? In my reading so far in the Manosphere, there hasn’t been a definitive answer to that question. Calibrating the cure, my hope is we won’t need to excise them and, instead, we can inoculate with the red pill so masculine values can flourish in a healthy way.

    1. @Eric, I honestly don’t think of the feminine imperative as a bad thing per se, only used to bad effects. What we’ve lost as men (via feminization) is an understanding of it and the social awareness to cope if not regulate it.

  13. Military training has a goal of turning an average man into an ultimate protector in a collective group. To achieve this goal, through years and years of conditioning these men gain real understanding of values which not only make them stand out in the crowd of “ordinary men” but they reach a point where they know how bravery feels like, where male bonding is so strong that they put life into each others hands day by day knowing there will be somebody who got their back. That gives you a peace, it teaches you the essence of trust. These are the selfless gestures values Eric was talking about. Loyalty, and courage is only validated amongst men who live by those values day by day as their lives and lives of others rely on them.

    I do not think anyone of us who has not endured such life experiences will be able to grasp the essence of that connection. Furthermore their most significant part of their life (career, destiny, purpose) is shaped through such heroic values and sure enough these values in this dangerous environment are essential to be cherished.

    Now fast forward to the real world, a soldier gets released from his duty. It means that whatever he used to live by is no longer needed, appreciated and in most cases looked down upon. Not even one man, not even his “loving” wife gets to see him for who he really become – a true man of honour. He, with all his respectable values which served him like a water on the dessert becomes alone in this world. No wonder poets, intellectuals and great minds of this world lived such a lonely life or collaborated only with people alike (just like soldiers in an army). No one has reached the same level of development as them but suddenly in the “real world” they do feel like rejects. Love and companionship for them is saturated with so many noble ideas that if they get betrayed by their wives it means betrayal to their identity.

    The point is the environment which you are placing yourself in will change you for better or for worst but women in their hypergamous nature will never break free from shallow pursuit of shallow ideals such as immediate rewards, minimum protection, alpha male bla bla bla…. that is why a woman should never be considered as an end in a man’s life but a man is always an end in himself.

  14. You must live your relationships with women as though you would never receive gratitude or reciprocation. Be kind and generous, and all those things that are good, for their own reasons and because it is right; otherwise you will be punished with disappointment… eventually. You must learn to be entirely independent of women, and expect nothing. Everything given then will become a pleasant surprise (as taterearl said), and you will still live a life of virtue… with plenty of hot intercourse too.

  15. artanis,

    Soldiers certainly get to experience good and bad leadership up close and personal. I was lucky enough to work (mostly) for decent officers and sergeants who were professionals, carried their load, and took care of their soldiers.

    In my 1st duty station, we had a 2LT in his 1st duty station. At the time, I wasn’t sympathetic, but looking back, I can see he had a suck job as the lowest ranking officer in the unit. In addition to his primary duties, the extra duties for officers ended up on his desk. At least, as an officer, he could boss us privates around, right? Nope. He tried, but then our boss, a captain, ordered him – in front of us – to stop supervising us and that only our NCOs or, when they weren’t available, he (the OIC) would direct us. After that, the 2LT pretty much kept his head down and stayed out of our way.

    It was an early lesson that rank was meant to be functional, not a license to bully, and duty and the mission trumped all. We each had our role in the mission, and with our shop being what it was, the enlisted troops happened to be more ‘mission essential’ than the 2LT. When he stepped out of his lane, butted in the NCOs’ lane, and interfered with the smooth running of the shop, the captain put the 2LT back in his place.

    Generally in my duty stations, the senior officers made clear to the junior officers that while they outranked the sergeants, if they ever crossed the line with the NCOs, then the junior officers would answer to the senior officers. The senior officers also made clear that the sergeants, and not the junior officers, were in charge of the troops.

  16. You can’t learn how to handle women without interacting with women. That’s why if you take a Keyboard Jockey pro who’s read and studied everything under the sky about pickup and you put him in a bar he will shit his pants and get drunk in a corner by himself and go home alone.

    You need to build the reference experiences that drill into your mind “do this or that will happen again”. Even if you understand all the logic, without experience you will convince yourself that that’s “only those bar slut girls, the girl *I* choose would never be like that” I can TELL you to get a girl’s number instead of giving her yours. I can give you every logical reason in the world and you can fully understand them. But you’ll meet your perfect dream girl you want to marry and she’ll say “I don’t give out my number, give me yours, I promise I’ll call you and we’ll do all those things we talked about and get married blah blah” and you’ll go “hmmmmm…….okay!” And give her your number. And then you’ll never hear from her ever again.

    That pain will drill into your brain to not settle for giving her your number.

    You can’t gain those experiences if you aren’t interacting with women. That’s why when guys are like “o ya well PUA doesn’t make you an alpha what makes you an alpha is climbing a mountain and being a CEO of a major company and joining the army learning to be a REAL man!”

    Ya, sure, those things teach you awesome things and give you lots of confidence. But that doesn’t mean shit when a pretty girl is staring you in the eyes waiting for you to do something.

    Keyboard Jockeys think “whatever man, a guy who climbed Everest wouldn’t be intimidate by some dumb girl in a bar, what’s SHE done compared to him? Nothing, he would own her effortlessly because he’s so badass!” But that’s because they haven’t been out with enough guys to see, in action, that like 99% of the time it doesn’t make a difference.

    At the end of the day, in our current society, especially in the nightlife, a hot chick with nice tits in a push-up bra is the height of value. She can be a complete piece of shit and you can be a doctor but she’s getting in the door first because she knows how to walk in heels. She has situational value and guys who don’t interact with hot chicks regularly fall into that same belief that she has high value and choke on their own dick terrified to talk to her.

    Guys should go out and socialize and do pickup for a couple years after high school instead of climbing a mountain or joining the army. It’ll teach them a shit-load more.

  17. Can somebody please remind me what, exactly, is “alpha” about being in the military, specifically a non-officer?

    Is it the taking potshots at third worlders from armored vehicles 100 years ahead of any technology their adversaries have? Is it the mere fact that you’re murdering others?

    From what I see, the military is a strict subordination hierarchy which forces you to surrender your mind, body, and soul to become a part of this collective murder cult. Other men rule your destiny. How is this supposed to be a training ground for “alpha” men?

    It’s no surprise that the military doesn’t “cure” the beta in men. No, it exploits the beta men and exacerbates their condition of servitude. Please guys, wake up.

  18. EO (Equal Opportunity) is why so military men suck with woman. They keep trying to tell us that women are just as valuable to the military as men, and those that speak out from this line get their careers shafted.

  19. “Personal problems” = finding out that your wife back home has been fucking her semi-employed high school ex-boyfriend.

  20. Erudite Knight – “It is really sad to see brave men like this destoryed at the hands of stupid cunts that dont have a clue to their damage.”

    Hypergamy doesn’t care that you are a brave man, who worked with a team of other brave men, to protect her twat. She just wants her twat filled with thug seed: never mind the guys who stop her from being gang-raped and killed by invaders.

    The military needs to drill into their men that most civilians are clueless, pathetic excuses for human beings (I include myself in that list). Then, they’d have an easier time coping.

    Of course, if the military DID teach that, there might well be a revolt in the ranks. “Tell me again why I am protecting their shitty assholes. Maybe I should take over instead.” It happened to Rome.

  21. Aleph,

    Soldiers’ jobs are a little more complex than that. Carrying out the post-9/11 multi-faceted counter-terror/counterinsurgency doctrine is very complex.

    The Army’s paternalistic heirarchy provides a working structure for team. As a team, soldiers are each responsible for their role in the mission. The soldiers in the various roles depend on each other. As one of my bosses – I forget whether he was an officer or NCO – explained to me, leadership is practiced up and sideways, not only down.

    Every soldier is by definition simultaneously a follower and a leader. Both aspects are active. A soldier begins his career heavy on the following while leading only one soldier, himself. As he advances, the Army rapidly gives him more responsibilities and soldiers to lead, often even before he reaches the first technically supervisory rank of Sergeant (or, depending on the unit, Corporal). The custom is any soldier should be ready to assume the duties 2 ranks up or 1 rank down. It’s fairly common for soldiers to be called on to fill positions above their pay grade. I was.

    Soldiers have a professional standard and are expected to be adaptable generalists as well as specialists. Officers nor even NCOs can micro-manage every soldier every minute in every activity. They have human limitations. They rely on their troops to carry out the mission and solve problems – and there are always problems in that kind of work environment – even when they’re not present.

    For example, one time in my 1st duty station, a really nasty flu hit our unit just as we were going to the field. We had split our shop per the exercise, we were already shorthanded when healthy, and the flu took away more of our people. That 2LT I mentioned earlier – he was hospitalized. We had less than minimum staffing for 24 hour ops. Net effect, the captain tried not to sleep and he pulled it off for a few days, but eventually he had to. We had no NCOs and I was next man up. As a scared private who was the highest ranking soldier in the shop available, I was working on the level with captains and majors – battalion staff officers and company commanders.

    It was an exceptional situation, but not an abnormal one. It was the job. The military’s heirarchy and following orders are means to an end. The prime directive of soldiers isn’t obedience and servility; it’s accomplishing the mission. Officers and enlisted troops are fellow professionals who share the same mission. All soldiers give and take orders and direction; the ratio just changes as their careers move ahead.

  22. Being a soldier is actually Uber-Beta, not alpha. Most men become soldiers because they’ve made bad choices and they need a career path. However, the volunteer soldiers that LOVE the military are dyed-in-the-wool betas. They value self-sacrifice to the corps/army/navy etc… as gold. These men value being a fit, functioning, strong part of a collective whole of service to the country higher than anything else in life. God bless them in their beliefs, because if they were not there, we’d have more than selective-service in the U.S. we’d have mandatory service like many other nations do.

    These men have not had self-sacrifice beat into them by the military. Many of them they started off believing in that and wanted to join an organization that valued them for their way of thinking. Our volunteer military in the U.S. is the only organization in the world where Beta self-sacrifice is rewarded and praised as an institutional imperative.

    This is not to say that no alphas join the military, they do. They’re just the ones who do their 4 years and leave immediately after they realized their mistake.

    The truly sad thing is, even within our now integrated military, the male-female dynamics mean that the sacrifice of beta males gets exploited.

    I would love to see a cultural shift to truly shame women for leaving their military men. There’s nothing more disgusting than a woman who decides she’s unhaaapy with military life and screws over a man who isn’t just sacrificing for her, but everyone else in society. I find this completely fair, women wanted to shame men for not volunteering for WWI or 2, so let them be shamed for letting their selfish desires override self-sacrificing commitment. Anyone who wrote or writes a dear-john letter should be exposed to the power of internet shaming.

  23. @ Eric/Alpeh: I didn’t find my experience in the Army quite as rewarding as I expected, but I did find myself accomplishing things I never thought I could have pulled off.

    Those experiences don’t necessarily make you an Alpha, but they can if put into the proper context. I’ve made it through some serious shit before, and because I did that, I know I can get shot down a few times by dumb bitches and still be okay.

    The military has become way too femininzed, and I don’t think it’s as rewarding as it could be, but it’s the best chance some guys who’ve never had decent male role models to find some.

  24. @Martel “The military has become way too femininzed”

    They even are putting women on Ohio class ballistic missile submarines. Armed with 24 trident missiles, 5 warheads a pop. Recipe for disaster if you ask me.

    “The Ohio class SSBNs also have hatches large enough to easily get in the equipment needed to build the separate quarters.”

    You have got to be kidding me…separate quarters…

  25. Rollo: “@Eric, I honestly don’t think of the feminine imperative as a bad thing per se, only used to bad effects. What we’ve lost as men (via feminization) is an understanding of it and the social awareness to cope if not regulate it.”

    That’s the puzzle for a red pill beginner like myself: what can I keep and what needs to change. Based on personal experience and Manosphere consensus, making the call on my romantic ideals is emotionally wrenching but rationally straightforward. Sorting the rest isn’t as simple.

  26. @ Eric: The FI in and of itself is neither good nor bad; it just is. It’s a problem because all too often it’s become OUR imperative as men without us realizing it. Rollo and others point out where FI subtly asserts itself so that we can proceed with open eyes.

    It’s hard to figure out at first, but what you “keep” is what makes YOU really feel alive, not the bullshit you’ve been trained to think you should be, what what you really ARE. It’s different for you than it is for everybody else on the planet. It’s why you were born, and “what needs to change” is whatever interferes with you becoming that.

    It’s not obvious to work your way through all that programming, but that’s what all this crap is about, and it’s worth it.

  27. A former Herb writes “can we make an institution dedicated to sacrificing betas to the feminine imperative teach us guys about the Red Pill”

    What else is the military except an enormous shit-test put to the young and dumb?

    “Please, go far far away and be shot at by strangers. It maketh my panties runneth over. If you come back.”

    Who else is Jody except the guy who has no intention of Manning Up for some girl who demonstrates her true nature two months in your deployment? Who warns that a LDR is no relationship at all?

    This isn’t guys vs. fems. It’s blue pill vs red pill, and the very concept of Army is White-knight.

  28. @ Eric

    Picking ONE instance of American history where the US military MAY have been serving as a so-called protector of the American masses does not mitigate the milennia-old, time-tested tradition of soldiers functioning as cannon fodder for the ruling classes. Soldiers, primarily, are tools for the powerful to suppress others via physical force, whether internally in the case of Mao or Stalin, or externally in the case of George W. Bush.

    Further, the propaganda-drivel that tepidly slizzered out of your NCO’s gullet regarding your role doesn’t mesh with the reality that, if some dude higher on the hierarchy wants you to believe a certain something about a certain place or people, then you will be FORCED to believe that. If one of the guys further up in your dominance (yes, dominance) hierarchy says you’re going to a cesspit to fight to the death against first, second, third, or ninth-world peasants clad in pajamas and flip-flops, then you better BUCK UP, soldier! Because it’s time to go defend ‘dem FREEDOMZ. At that point, there is now “lateral” leadership going on. You’re being told what the fuck to do, and you sure as heck better do it.

    So, please, spare me the illusions about the military. It’s nothing more than a cult of trained killers who are vetted by utter domination and degradation, followed by heavy indoctrination and subordination.

  29. I keep hearing this same story again and again and again. People keep asking “why do wives cheat on military guys of all people?” Hypergamy. Hypergamy. Hypergamy. Lack of red pill on the guy’s part. These guys put it all on the line abroad but get a lukewarm reception back home from civilians, the gubment, and their wives.

    It’s all just a depressing clusterfuck.

  30. Ironically, my first experiences with “game” was when I was in the military being friends with the guys who were the naturals on base.

  31. Participation in the military is about one fundamental thing: substituting somebody else’s judgment for your own. Despite the indisputable physical badassery that many military men display, that mental and moral lapse is the most dehumanizing thing a man can put himself through. If they say kill, you kill. If they say die, you die. If they say go into a situation where you’re the bad guy, shoot at people who are trying to defend their community against you, and then pat yourself on the back for being a hero, you do that. They don’t even have to tell you to rationalize it to yourself later, although with so many soldier suicides they may have to start.

    Basic training is meant to mold your mind into what they want it to be, and Stockholm syndrome does the rest. Whatever red pill virtues military members might have, their behavior is fundamentally blue pill. If they started using their own judgment, which is a moral imperative and the highest exercise of human values, the military would cease to exist.

  32. Martel,

    I agree no two individuals’ military experiences are the same, though those of us who’ve done it can make some fair generalizations. Check out my response to you in the Mr. Softee thread.


    I agree not every soldier is a good soldier. Some enter and leave the Army without learning a thing. At the same time, many who were good soldiers fulfill their contracts and don’t re-enlist. I didn’t.

    Being fit, functioning, and strong are alpha qualities, at least among men. Add that soldiers, including relatively low ranking, young soldiers, are placed in position to lead other men in achieving tangible goals. Soldiers also routinely mentor their juniors, another alpha act among men. Soldiers, especially junior officers, learn quickly that the power of rank only goes so far. If an officer, NCO, or junior enlisted soldier in a leadership role is unable to maintain respect and a dominant frame based on his personality, he can quickly lose his ability to accomplish the mission unless one of his men assumes practical leadership of the mission. I had to do that, too.

    The Army, indeed, is a second chance for many people; so is the red pill. A key feature shared by the Manosphere and the Army is that newcomers are not required to be pre-packaged naturals, whether Alpha or Ranger, upon entry. We only have to be willing and able to break it down, open to learning new ways, and remake ourselves. New soldiers, especially the ones arriving from failure in order to correct the course of their lives, are open to learning better modes – much like disillusioned betas finding the Manosphere. The red pill can be added to the curriculum. If, as Martel says, the Army is watering down the masculine value of its teachings, that will only strengthen the appeal of red pill teachings for young soldiers who are seeking fundamental change.

    The question is, can a man be Alpha to women while separately and simultaneously also a traditionally honorable and respected man among men? Some in the Manosphere seem to believe we can only be one or the other.

  33. You can’t be Alpha and spend more than 4 years in the military. If you are an Alpha, you avoid the military, unless you come from a military family, and which in that case you work your ass off and enter a service academy, where they proceed to beat and manipulate the Alpha out of you.

    I knew dudes who came in and could get pussy pretty much at will. Then they hit the military and decided to get married, or they hooked up with a girl than got wrapped around her, married or not.

    I only knew 2 dudes like that who made it through without getting married. They did their time or got out early, and they’re still barely naturals.

  34. Rollo, as a young man in his 20s what should I be doing when dealing with women? I’m new to your blog so haven’t read many entries but is there a few posts you can point me to on what I should be doing?

  35. Martel,

    I get the feminine imperative is what it is. I’m still coming to grips with it on a gut level, but I understand the concept. What I meant with ‘parasitic on masculine values’ was less about judging the nature of FI and more about the extent of its reach into our domain.

    Robert highlighted the stark difference. Where I see the military as a repository of masculine values and culture that should be paired with the red pill, he sees a prime example of FI control of men.

  36. @ Unending: Yes, you can be Alpha and be a career soldier. I’ve seen it DOZENS of times, not anectdotally, in person.

    I’m aware of the whole brainwashed/enslaved point some people are making, and I see it to a SMALL EXTENT, but I’m not going to respond to the condescension for fear of breaking my laptop in the process. If somebody thinks I’ve been indoctrinated, I PRAY they get the chance to tell me in person. (and I won’t need to come within arms’ length of them to make them cry).

    @ Eric: There’s plenty of FI in the military, and there’s also plenty of masculinity. I think it depends on each individual soldier. Some enlist and/or stay in because they want and need direction, others do it because it’s who they are.

    I think some of the dividing line is based on MOS. The combat arms types who stay in for a long time do it because they love it. Executing orders to perfection is a challenge upon which they thrive. The comraderie and adrenalin are what they live for. They pride themselves on being the best at what they do. There’s an irony to them in that they follow orders with precision; their actions are sometimes controlled by others, but their minds can be incredibly insightful and individualistic.

    Those in other MOS’s who re-enlist tend to be the more cowardly types. The military takes care of your housing and most of your bills. You can’t get fired (unless you really fuck up), and they thrive on the security. Following orders is not the means to the end of EXCELLENCE, it’s a way to avoid responsibility for their lives and decisions.

    In the Army I met both the strongest and the weakest men I have ever known. I have had leaders I would have gladly taken a bullet for, and others I had to struggle to keep from shooting myself. Heroes and cowards, working together and fighting for control. Alphas and omegas.

    You’re both right.


    ^^MORE evidence what hypergamy and feminism does for women, Roosh’s post on meeting women at the book store

    Is one step but I will even take it one step further. Meeting women who place spiritual matters first tend to be the most kind and feminine women. I’m not talking religious women who slutted it up have a bunch of kids and now want a “Captain Save a Hoe” but women who were raised in a spiritual environment. A spiritual women who submits herself to God and her husband will be more easier to deal with than a slore who is 42 no kids wondering why she is lonely.

    Sorry Rollo just had to get this of my chest brah

  38. I didn’t see it alluded to here yet so I will post this from “NO Ma’am”:

    Briffault’s Law
    “The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.” — Robert Briffault, The Mothers, I, 191


    The Rosetta Stone of Women’s Behaviour

    There are a few corollaries I would add:

    1 – Past benefit provided by the male does not provide for continued or future association.

    2 – Any agreement where the male provides a current benefit in return for a promise of future association is null and void as soon as the male has provided the benefit (see corollary 1)

    3 – A promise of future benefit has limited influence on current/future association, with the influence inversely proportionate to the length of time until the benefit will be given and directly proportionate to the degree to which the female trusts the male (which is not bloody likely).

  39. Reflecting on this, I don’t believe you can limit an arena of male values to the military. Moreso, any male workplace, and i would refer to times past. Machine workshops, mines, etc. When the sacrifice of males is rewarded by other males, fraternity can only develop.

    Now reading above about the public service, particuarly how efficient and beyond corruption we would see it in Bismarckian germany, or the Raj in India. The were only populated by males. Would a fraternal bond be strong enough to withstand corruption?

    Thus, does a female presence degrade a workplace where you need male values?

  40. This is a great topic. When looking at masculine vs feminine behaviors and ideals passed down from generation to generation, what men have been indoctrinated with has been pretty much the same over the years from what I can tell going as far back as the silent generation.


    These qualities are drilled into little boys from early childhood, but women do not receive the same indoctrination. I think this is why there’s no female equivalent to “bros before hos”. Now how does this apply to the military? Just look at the Air Force’s core values:

    Integrity First
    Service Before Self
    Excellence In All We Do

    These are masculine qualities, especially the first and second one. It stands to reason that women are going to be out of place in a culture that values these clearly masculine qualities. The grand irony is that the military continues to be try and feminize itself even as we speak. There are task forces sweeping through the AF right now taking down Maxim posters and whatnot to make the workplace more welcoming to women. Is stuff like that even going to matter when the core values the service espouses are things that are contrary to the feminine imperative and the solipsism women are raised into?

    Give these threads a look for more info:

  41. The real kick in the balls is that women’s grooming by society and their elders has drastically changed over the generations. No more are days of women being brought up to be become good housewives and mothers, ready to settle down shortly after high school. Nope, these days it’s girls growing up emulating their favorite reality show sluts and being pushed into solipsism and hookup culture, I think mainly by their single mothers. who want to live vicariously through them and the lack of a father figure to temper these desires.

    The rampant unchecked hypergamy running rampant in our culture is truly something to behold, especially if your’e the lucky 5-10% of guys who are benefiting from it. What’s worse is the millions of men get contradicting messages about how they’re supposed to behave. They get the ideas I mentioned above drilled into them, while at the same time being demonized and told how toxic their masculinity it. Meanwhile most see the minority of men getting showered with sex and female attention, but told that acting like those men do is a bad thing. That there’s a set of female approved qualities they should espouse, but it doesn’t get rewarded anymore thanks to how what women value has changed over the years. This is the cognitive dissonance that drives many men to the Red Pill way of looking at life. Thankfully the number of men waking up from The Matrix is growing every day. How that will play out in the military remains to be seen though, but I most certainly do agree that the military is ripe for a red pill revolution. They already have masculinity in spades, a very defined culture that hasn’t changed too much over the generations despite feminine imperative thinking and attempts to make it more female friendly, even though women are a stark minority amount their ranks (the AF has the best ratio and it’s “only” a 5:1 ratio of men to women).

    Men in the military are the front-runners of our society who could wake up en mass and stop failing the shit test of feminism if enough of them take the Red Pill in time. I think as more younger men snap out of it and see things for what they are, and they join the military themselves and take their knowledge into the already heavily male dominated ranks, that it could be the first demographic to see an end of the Misandry Bubble.

    Bottom line, my prediction is that when the military stops being led around by its noses by feminist thinking we’ll know the Misandry Bubble is bursting on a widespread level since the military is the first responder to social upheaval of the liberal variety. The MRM and Red Pill is truly a liberal movement, despite the appearance that it’s a shift back to traditionalism. Men breaking free of traditional gender roles, playing video games, hooking up, NOT settling down, NOT being chivalrous, NOT sacrificing in the workforce for women’s benefit, that’s the 21st Century changing of the guard of gender roles for men much the same way women rejected being homemakers and entered the workforce in the 70s. Add in the eventual advent of a male birth control and men are going to see a new kind of freedom it’s hard to imagine what it’ll look like. The drawback is that it’ll largely be the end of western civilization as we know it since as men drop out of the jobs that make the world turn, and all the evidence tells us women are NOT filling in the gaps. So when men say enough is enough, and would rather enjoy the welfare state instead of taking out the garbage, who will keep the lights on? Who will be willing to join the military in service of the feminine imperative when they know what it’ll mean for them if they do? Long-term ramifications of where society is heading does not paint a pretty picture. In the short term, it’ll be great and fantastic and see all kinds of men going their own way, in whatever form that may take (going ghost, adoption PUA tactics, or something else entirely).

  42. Have to agree with the others who have already said military is far from alpha. Guurl world and the FI is alive and kicking. My squad leader at basic was a manjawed 5 trying way to hard to “prove” herself among the male squad leaders. Blue balled young men falling over themselves to out beta game each other for the influx of women which thanks to the scarcity factor have transformed 2 points higher in SMV than civilians, military is heaven for plain Janes and fuggo’s btw.
    Girls given a pass for inadequate PT. 1 fatass I know for a fact didn’t pass many of the PT tests somehow miraculously passed her run when the rest of us went back to the showers. An overly PC environment which hinders positive masculinity.

    I still remember being wedged inbetween 2 river pigs with the standard navy issued asses that most of the females seem to acquire and being asked if I shaved that morning. The irony of being stuck between 2 borderline Shamu’s was apparently lost. It only continued from there on out.

    The whole thing’s a breeding ground for new heights of white knightery.

    Maybe once upon a time it was an alpha environment but those days are long gone. It’s a joke now. My father, grandfather, and great grandfather all served in the navy but it stops with me, you can bet your ass my son won’t be encouraged to join. Protecting a bunch of cluster fuck “victim” liberal losers and a leftist state. Not on my watch.

  43. Right.

    Let’s see.


    Agree with tatedearl on upholding moral codes being solely a realm of male-only interaction; the female “best-deal” (read: tingle or validation-inducing) imperative is too self-serving for that useless, idealistic tosh.

    I concur fully on Ya’s points about being in the strobe-light filled trenches if one wants to learn about pick-up/seduction in full. The last couple of months after a return to NG, armed with info on social and behavioural patterns, has greatly fleshed-out (yes, a pun) the concepts. (P)re-calibrating on the fly, the effect of differing approaches (calm, suited mr. Bond vs. RSD-apparelled off-the-bat-negging Tyler II), being AMOGged, wasting time on a validation whr. who’d already made her decision, testing different venue types, coasting and lounging with someone you’re not intent on f-ing etc.

    As for giving one’s number, overheard one such occurrence last weekend; her parting words “I will text you” wouldn’t have earlier meant anything, but now they were full of cosmic significance. Even though she was a foreign student and not especially good-looking, so perhaps she did text him. On the other hand, she was an American student, as I learned when I joked around with her and the cuter spanish one on the night bus, so anything is possible…(Not that I wouldn’t agree on xsplat’s(?) comment earlier here about the occasional ‘sphere fascination on by-default dumping on US women.)

    Ya, you can of course take national conscription (available at select Realms), spend only a year in the boondocks with one’s male peers, ending up commanding a MBT or directing artillery fire (my forte, being a sniper’s no.1 target) and then returning to hone the pick-up. Heh.

    Eric’s scenario about being forced to do things well above one’s rank and the intimidation can of course occur in an intense wartime situation with severe losses. Experienced something similar when being the acting coy. commander for a week at the reservist officer training, having so far operated only as a squad leader once… (The handicapping difference to normal deployment also being that at the officer school all of the fellow officer students played extra dumb in order to keep others’ ratings down… Heh.)

    Mebus, I in fact think that women are rather good at performing straightforward, strictly limited and outlined, “mechanical” tasks like commanding artillery pieces etc. Of course, as for being a sub commander or an XO? Judging on the absolute psycho nature of some “alpha” women like a former boss or an ex-landlord, I wouldn’t trust their menopausal, insane twats a single multi-billion war machine, launch codes or not.

    UI, the military indeed seems to be an environment that quickly beats you into a FI-formed mold. You perhaps go into the bachelor quarters at your 1st deployment but sooner or later you’re forced to “man up” and take the marriage timebomb to fit in.

    And indeed, Martel you can meet the best, beta or alpha, of a male demographic slice in the military, and some of the worst.

    As for whether the military is a repository for alpha or beta (not that again) characteristics is neither here nor there for me, the way I see it, the experiences are an all-encompassing bond of men, perhaps forced, but in the field they all face the same sh1t up to a certain forward-line rank.

    The situation for the soldiers in the US returning to civilian life now is bad enough, but at least they are not fighting a widely unpopular war like the one in the SE Asia. Divided even further by the draft system irregularities, the rise of feminism and open contempt from many of the college-aged women.

    I personally thank my stars that I served at a time when there was yet no female soldiers in the indigenous conscript military, at a time when the military was not too gender-PC and the, at least certain, inherent male cohesion within was not split by white-knighting and AMOGging for the few attractive women at a given garrison. Like mr. Ironwood once stated in his blog that women want to get into a boys-only club and then use the imperative to sap certain of its essence from within with increased demands.

    You may undo the top button now too, if you want.

  44. I agree with the comment that a source of the problem is that soldiers form strong idealistic relationships with each other based on intimate trust, expressed with cliches like ‘battle buddy’, ‘no man left behind’, ‘watch each other’s back/6’, etc.. They don’t recognize the special trust-based bond among soldiers, with its relational equity, is distinctly masculine (fraternal), and therefore try to apply the same standard to their wives and girlfriends, to poor result.

    I say again, the red pill movement isn’t about arriving as an irrationally confident Alpha any more than joining the Army is about arriving as a recruiting poster Ranger. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and the 80 percent solution we can use is better than the 100 solution we only imagine.

    The woman troubles in the military community – whether the frictions from integrating women in the ranks of a male-dominated group, top-down politically correct policies clashing with the long-standing masculine norms on the ground, or the endemic personal relationship problems – are a prime growth opportunity for the red pill movement, not an obstacle.

    The military as of now, organically, is still predominantly a men’s club where men first relate to other men in fraternal and paternal fashion, and the men are task/condition/standard problem solvers. In the military, men care for and about men. They’re sensitized to the blue pill problem, but like the rest of us, aren’t automatically aware of the contours of the problem nor the red pill solution. So, make them fully aware of the problem and equip them with the solution. Then encourage their military-ingrained team-based, problem-solving instincts to go to work on the problem. They might even generate practical models we civilians can implement outside the military.

    Martel, I agree the combat arms culture is different than combat support and combat service support, though good soldiers and leaders are found among pogues, too. Still, the jaded pogue E6 who’s put in 10, is stalled out, and just trying to reach his 20 needs the red pill as much as the next guy. The red pill might just reawaken the enthusiasm he started with. You reminded me of advice given to me by my last NCOIC about staying in vs getting out. He was a jaded E6 and told me the 1st enlistment is different in kind than the re-enlistments. The 1st enlistment is a life-changing experience for a young man more than it is a job. But after you re-up, and 4 becomes 8 with 10 around the corner, it becomes a career track where shit can happen. He had started off as a fast tracker but shit happened, and by the time we worked together, he was just putting in his time until retirement.

    While I believe the red pill can and should benefit all soldiers, the most important group to net are the young soldiers with their lives ahead of them. Many of them will get out after their 1st enlistment; barring KIA, all soldiers become civilians again sooner or later. Such prioritizing wouldn’t alienate older soldiers who also benefit from the red pill. The elder training the young is traditionally masculine and part of the Army culture anyway.

  45. Martel: “There’s plenty of FI in the military, and there’s also plenty of masculinity.”

    My hope is red pill spread on the ground will corral, control, and contain FI in the military and thereby protect and facilitate spread and growth of a red pill ruggedized masculinity that eventually spills over into civilian society.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the soldiers you might class as “omegas” are the 1st ones to step up and apply their underused soldier skills to spreading the red pill because they’re dissatisfied and ready for a radical change.

  46. “This is naturally frustrating for a young soldier wondering why his sacrifice and commitment to duty doesn’t make him any more attractive, more arousing, more deserving of his girlfriend or wife’s monogamous commitment. He’s done everything ‘right’ yet there is no advancement, no appreciation, and in fact sometimes outright abandonment of him and his ‘principles’.”

    These traits used to mean a lot more than they do now. Sadly in our day and age they’re often devalued by women constantly seeking new, fresh alpha. Just like guys addicted to porn can have massive problems with women in the real world, women who are addicted to men after their class can’t realise the good guys and good traits they have in front of them. Problems run both ways…

  47. I get the feminine imperative is what it is. I’m still coming to grips with it on a gut level, but I understand the concept. What I meant with ‘parasitic on masculine values’ was less about judging the nature of FI and more about the extent of its reach into our domain.

    Robert highlighted the stark difference. Where I see the military as a repository of masculine values and culture that should be paired with the red pill, he sees a prime example of FI control of men.

    The topic du jour over at Dalrock’s blog this week is (yet again) the validity of the feminine imperative as a concept. What I find exceptionally ironic about the conveniently christianizing manosphere is this ceaseless droning from holier than thou white knights bemoaning how the feminine imperative is corrupting what the church traditionally should be, but are unable to look beyond how it affects what used to be their comfortable domain.

    For all their kvetching they refuse to accept the feminine imperative as a concept. They refuse to look beyond the narrow scope of the effect of the FI on their solitary religious institution. This comment thread is an excellent example of another, and much broader, social institution, the military, the FI has both projected feminine primacy on, while ensuring that the beta chumps it depends on stay pliable, ignorant of, and useful to, the feminine imperative.

  48. Moi? Being screamed at by some halfwitted purple-faced English alcoholic all day and night, and all that running about and shouting, in dreadful clothes?
    I should cocoa. Match made in heaven. Not.

    “Go fight for your country!”
    “Why, where are my acres?”

    (I know where they used to be. A lo-oong, long time ago. Before I was born).

  49. Everybody who serves isn’t a stud or even a good person; the term “10 percenters” is a military term to reflect that 10 percent of servicemembers are utter pieces of shit. Most of the rest of the soldiers are good and another 10% or so are rockstars. Natural tendencies are magnified in the military context, and many veterans just keep on doing what worked for them when they become civilians. Those guys who barely bumped along in the military will barely bump along as civilians, and the gangstas never change, but the rest of the servicemembers tend to be strong performers. As for the beta frame – a lot depends on luck and the draw in assignments. I was counseled away from marrying at 20 by a wise old top kick, who advised me that I really had no business marrying until I’d sampled the wares in at least a handful of whorehouses. He was giving me the pill, 25 years ago, only they didn’t call it that then, the wise old bulls just knew what was going on and if you gave them a chance they’d share their wisdom. And he was right – once I realized what he was saying a couple years later (yep… brilliant, me…) I had a fun, fornicating time until I settled down. Sadly, this level of purely male-to-male mentoring is largely wiped out outside of the combat arms units. You won’t find men who lived in the wild in a unit that is 20% female, men like that don’t get selected to lead units like that.

    As for what happens when a servicemember gets out – I know a lot of vets who are star performers, but even the half-talented have more character and are better than run of the mill whiny ass civilians; they know what it means to work, to be team members, to get each other’s backs and conversely, to not be buddyfuckers. It’s just a way you learn to be. As Crazy Early put it in Full Metal Jacket, “After we rotate back to the world, we’re gonna miss not having anyone around that’s worth shooting.” There’s an ethos there that is very strong. Doesn’t mean they are smart about women; odds are they are a bit white knight-y. But they can be talked out of it, and the military experience (even as a witness) of Jody problems and Dear Johns was a formative experience for most of them, which they remember well, and it gives them a context to understand Red Pill discussions.

  50. One of the ways I see a lot of soldiers eventually waking up is the female Sick Call Rangerette. Holy shit female soldiers went to Sick Call a lot. Every fucking day at least a few of them were off getting their lady parts or some other crap checked.

    And when all the male soldiers were freezing our asses off PMCSing the trucks, somehow the females got to organize the TM’s in the office inside.

    Also, I’m proud to say that in my company of about 130 in Korea, in the space of a month FOUR female soldiers got pregnant. One was cheating on her husband, one ended up marrying the guy who knocked her up, and the other two became single moms.

    Apparently, in the Navy this is a MASSIVE problem. The higher-ups seems to think it’s because of ignorance about birth control. That had nothing to do with it. They just didn’t give a shit.

  51. The higher-ups seems to think it’s because of ignorance about birth control.

    Well yeah. The higher ups are ignorant of the fact that if women weren’t there they couldn’t get pregnant.

  52. I agree with Eric and Martel that being in the military is a reality-based endeavour so the FI gets noticed a lot quicker.

    Eric – why do you think that the military is going to be different from any sector that has already been colonised? None of them got the redpill, despite being hamstrung into bloated, unresponsive and ineffective versions of themselves.* The girls will take the office roles because they’re aiming to lay the situational alphas with stars on their shoulders, the less competent or downright repellent females will be (are!) favoured with a rewrite of requirements, and gradually credentialism takes the place of performance as the road to advancement. Anyone can fly a drone or enter launch codes, and that’s impressive enough for your average girly. Things guys do best – fixing stuff, blowing things up, getting shot at, sacrificing yourself – are silly boys things and they don’t want (or need) them. The armed forces will be institutionally assimilated by the FI Borg long before you lose your warfighting ability.

    I think they’ll get their way in feminising the military, just in time to find themselves asking ‘where have all the (few) good men gone?”.


    * though some would say this has already happened

  53. One other aspect of the femmes in military thing that gets overlooked is that it does affect comraderie among the males. Even the cows get hit on in majority-male environments, and when you’re hot for some babe who’s getting action from one of your buddies in the back of an LMTV during a field mission, it makes you less likely to see your buddies as a fellow soldier. He instead becomes a rival, and in life or death situations, that’s a definite minus.

    Kudos to the marine officer who wrote that article, though. I respect a woman who admits her limitations.

  54. @Rollo 9:03 AM, re: “For all their kvetching they refuse to accept the feminine imperative as a concept. They refuse to look beyond the narrow scope of the effect of the FI on their solitary religious institution. This comment thread is an excellent example of another, and much broader, social institution, the military, the FI has both projected feminine primacy on, while ensuring that the beta chumps it depends on stay pliable, ignorant of, and useful to, the feminine imperative.”

    But you’ve met these guys right?

    You know they are never, ever going to understand the FI. It just isn’t going to happen. You may as well explain the Oort Cloud to a someone who both profoundly understands the details of Ptolemaic cosmology, and who actually believes in those details.

    For your efforts, proceed to watch as our believer bludgeons the notion into something consistent with his organizing schema.

    Your method of enlightenment works on men who already present with the minimal prerequisite of a belief system that understands day to day phenomena as being the latest unfolding of an evolutionary process, even if some readers don’t really understand the underlying sciences.

    I don’t see your method finding much purchase in a mind set around a lattice that places everything in the context of Biblical myth … at a minimum, FI will be a real hard sell on that.

  55. I served on both sides of the USMC, the ground side and the pogue side. The difference was stark. The ground side was what you think of the Marine Corps as: tough, hard and merciless. It was also the best time I had in my whole life. My Battalion Commander had one lung. The other collapsed due to a chance encounter with a smoke grenade. My maintenance chief was one of 19 Marines to walk off of Khe Sanh under his own power. If you walked into his office he threw a bottle of Jack Daniels at you that you were required to drink from. At any time of day. There were no women there. None. Life was simple. Manly. Awesome. Hardly anyone was married either, and that is where the real problem lies in the military.

    The pogue side, the 3rd MAW, was a bit depressing, with few satisfying moments. The problems were of the same source, but from different angles. Four women in my platoon. Three were single mothers, the fourth just liked lots of cock at the same time. They caused a lot of disruption even though no one was interested in banging them, since we were in San Diego. Crawling with women. The ones in the platoon caused me (The Platoon Sergeant) problems all the time. We were told constantly that women were just as good as we were, and an integral part of the team. This came from the Kommissars: the First Sergeants, Sergeants Major and most of the officers. The officers who didn’t buy the party line kept their mouths shut, but you could look into their eyes and tell they thought it was all bullshit (Capt. Pacheco, you rock, wherever you are). None of the NCO’s believed that women were just as good as we were. We saw them fall out of runs constantly, fail to do push ups, and skate out of every hard task there was to do. They also couldn’t fix anything (We were an electronic maintenance platoon). All they did was talk.

    Why I am saying all of this? Because the situation exists largely due to several factors: progressivism and its fruit, DACOWITS, (The Defense Advisory Council on Women in the Service), mothers who couldn’t stand to hear about her boy being treated badly, Family Advocacy, and young dumb kids who got married so they could move out of the barracks and not have to deal with people like me.

    The wives could do no wrong (Stop me if this starts to sound familiar, Dalrock) and were automatically assumed to be victims in any situation. The government paid them money if a divorce happened. The Marine was ruined, even if no charges were filed. Kids taken. Counseling. All that jazz. If the wives were caught fucking around on their husbands, nothing happened to them. Marines caught committing adultery were sent to the brig.

    DACOWITS was composed of all the fire breathing, man hating leftist feminists you could think of, whose sole purpose was destroying the US Military because of its masculinity. Do you think the Marines of times past were betas? Hell no. Not before DACOWITS. They were wild animals who only obeyed other Marines. No one else. DACOWITS pushed all the women into the academies, combat units, everywhere. Set up Family Advocacy and all the agencies that exist to destroy your life. Whined about sexual harassment, which wouldn’t happen if the women weren’t there.Tailhook.DACOWITS jumped on that too.

    Gold Star Mothers who couldn’t deal with their sons becoming men and called the Congressmen at every opportunity. I have seen terrible things result from mothers calling their non veteran congressmen about what their boys are enduring in the FMF.

    Family Advocacy. The family destroyers. Man automatically guilty. Run by women. Women such as the one who told a few hundred new and soon to be Staff Sergeants that if we had ever had sex with a woman if one or either of us has had a drink, we were rapists. I asked her since we had all done this if we were all rapists. She told me yes, we were all rapists. In these situations, your boss at work also gets into your family life. The solution is to not get married when you are 18 to a whore you met at the Stuart Angus on 78 in Oceanside, just so you don’t have to field day your room in the barracks. Don’t give the command an excuse to get involved in your personal life. In the 1990’s, General Mundy, the Commandant at the time, tried to prohibit first term Marines (ages 18-22 usually) from getting married. He was not allowed to do that. A perfect solution. You get older, wiser and better, so you can attract better women. No NJP’s, no divorces, no problems. But no, the 18 year olds jumped up and down and screamed and called their mommies, just like they did when we made them do pushups and fill sandbags.

    This is why feminists and progressives love the military. It is the perfect social engineering laboratory. All they have to do is get in good with politicians who will then change the way the military does things. We have to obey. Civilian command of the military. Instead of condemning us for being betas and stupid, it is your responsibility to protect us. Keep the manjaws away from us. Don’t vote for politicians who like to fuck with the way we do things. Leave us alone. We don’t need women or fags. That is another can of worms.

  56. I agree with STG58. I was an Infantryman first then got my commission and was assigned to a medical branch because of my education. The difference between the infantry with no women, and a unit with women was tremendous. Units with women suck (and not in the good way). The cliques, the backstabbing, having to pick up their slack, the whining. It was just miserable. And you couldn’t be direct (shout) at them to change their performance, you had to be all touchy feely and counsel them. Blech.

    I got out after that cause I couldn’t stand being a feminized paper pusher, regardless of how much they paid me or how close I was to retirement.

    I did join a National Guard Infantry unit after that and it was good. Till they assigned us a pair of female company clerks. I was done for good after that.

  57. stg: GREAT insights, but the Marines probably have it better than any other branch. What you described sounds like paradise compared to the Army.

    I can say that I never had a quality female NCO or officer. Sometimes too bitchy, sometimes stupid, sometimes a pushover, sometimes almost decent until she got in a bad mood. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but I didn’t see it myself.

    In my mind this dovetails into some of the racial crap happening in the manosphere:

    I’ve seen innumerable quality men of all races in the military, and they generally get why the crap stg describes is what it is.

    But it’s starting to bug me how many in the Manosphere aren’t dividing men based on quality or alpha/beta but on race instead. IQ tendencies be damned; a good man is a good man, and we’re ALL getting screwed by The FI Combine.

    We need to draw the CORRECT battle lines or we’re screwed.

  58. Rollo sorry this is O/T but this REALLY needs an extended analysis from YOU:

    This is Owen of RSD saying it’s absolutely fine to marry a former raging slut if you have developed the right attitude.

    (In fact I want to hear from everyone on this — Mark Minter! Heartiste! Roosh! Even the grotesques like greatbooksformen, KingA, etc. for comic relief)

  59. While I am none of the aforementioned guys, I’d still like to chime in.

    I consider all of the PUA Instructors pretty much as a bunch of non-lifting herbs who feed women social fuel and then pretend they know how women work. Then they teach clueless omegas/betas a sort of blueprint on how to interact with women instead of truly teaching the inner workings BEHIND the scenes.

    It is almost like a cargo cult going through all the motions but the planes never drop those crates full of food.

    So to answer your question: It is a good idea to date a slut but a very bad idea to commit to one. Extract all the hot monkey sex you can from her, but don’t cohabit, LTR or marry one.

    As for getting good at Pickup, I would advise reading Rollo’s stuff and then figuring out how to mold your own personality according to the principles he teaches. This will ensure that you will still be a unique and interesting person and not a social robot spitting out openers and routines. You will not get laid that way, believe me I tried. Instead, think long and hard about what your best personality traits are and refine those in an alpha context. It takes more work than simply memorizing a couple of routines but is infinitely more rewarding in the long run.

  60. It’s okay to play with fire if you have the right attitude about it.

    Problem is you can still get burned.

  61. OlioOx: soon as you finally swallow the red pill and accept that hypergamy doesn’t care about your Madonna/whore complex, it only cares that you remain a high value man in her eyes, you’ll understand what Owen is saying.

    Don’t stop working on yourself, improving yourself as a man, and attracting your woman. When you slack off on all that, the virgin Good Girl you married will be sucking my dick in the bathroom of a bar on her Girls’ Night Out.

  62. A soldier, a sailor, and a Marine are milling about waiting to participate in Obama’s second inaugural parade. All three are married and talk turns to their wives and that Valentine’s Day is coming up pretty soon.

    The soldier says, “Last year I bought my wife some flowers and I went to the Credit Union, took out a loan and bought her new car. I figured that even if she didn’t like the flowers, she would like the car.”

    The sailor says, ” I bought my wife some candy and went to the Credit Union and took out loan so she could fly home and see her mother. I figured that even if she didn’t like the candy, she would like the trip.”

    The Marine says, “I bought my wife a tee shirt that said “My husband is a Marine” and a dildo. I figured that if she didn’t like the tee shirt, then she could go fuck herself.”

  63. The lld ex-Marine Gunny had just moments to live. At his side were his family, his wife and four sons, three of which had blonde hair, the other ginger.

    “Clara, I always worried you were screwing around while I was deployed. I’ve always wondered why one of our sons had red hair. Tell me truthfully, is he really my son?”

    Clara put her hand on her heart and fervently swore that yes, he was his son.

    “Oh thank goodness,” croaked the old Gunny and he died with a smile on his face.

    As the family left the room, the wife sighed deeply, “Good thing he didn’t ask about the other three.”

  64. A soldier says to his wife, “Say something to me that will make me both happy and sad at the same time.”

    The wife replies, “You have a much bigger dick than the other guys in your platoon.”

  65. Thanks for all the comments so far, notrain, taterearl, Yareally. — and Minter, great jokes, moar! (Any thoughts on the Tyler vid?)

    No comment at all Rollo? Perhaps you’ve already covered this whole line of thinking in previous posts? If so just link and I’ll read.

  66. ..on a side note, the fair sex can finally join us in the frontlines…

    [breaking news via Reuters]

    “U.S. to lift ban on women in front-line combat jobs”

    By David Alexander and Phil Stewart
    WASHINGTON | Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:22pm EST
    (Reuters) – The U.S. military will formally end its ban on women serving in front-line combat roles, officials said on Wednesday, in a move that could open thousands of fighting jobs to female service members for the first time.

    The move knocks down another societal barrier in the U.S. armed forces, after the Pentagon in 2011 scrapped its “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” ban on gays and lesbians serving openly in the military.

    U.S. defense officials said the decision to end the ban had been taken by outgoing U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and individual military services would have until 2016 to seek exemptions if they believed any combat roles should remain closed to women.

    Panetta is expected to announce the decision formally on Thursday. It will come after 11 years of non-stop war that has seen 84 women killed as a result of hostile action in the unpopular, costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The military services will have until May 15 to submit a plan on how they will comply by 2016………

  67. Jack Nicholson as Col. Nathan R. Jessup in ‘A Few Good Men’ shares some thoughts on the matter:

    “There is nothing on this earth sexier, believe me, gentlemen, than a woman you have to salute in the morning.

    Promote ’em all, I say, because this is true – if you haven’t gotten a blowjob from a superior officer, well, you’re just letting the best in life pass you by.”

  68. Martel, agreed and I’m not white.

    Robert: “Eric – why do you think that the military is going to be different from any sector that has already been colonised?”

    I view the military as the last best repository in our society of masculine values and culture, but I didn’t say it would be that way forever. The time for masculine-military conservationists who are wielding the red pill to act is now.

    Counter-question: Why the exception of writing off military men when the red pill movement is about, by, and for awakening men who have been immersed in the Matrix? As explained, compared to other parts of our feminized society, the military community is better off and has organic advantages for the red pill taking root.

    The view by the men on the ground on the inside of the military isn’t the same as the view from the outside. Soldiers affected personally are sensitized to the real problems and culture clash that have been described in this comment thread. FI uses the civilian leadership to impose policies, rules, and regulations on this man’s Army, and it’s true and right that our soldiers will carry out their lawful orders faithfully.

    However, young soldiers learn early on that there’s a right way, there’s a wrong way, and there’s the Army way. It means effective soldiering requires (a lot) more than just going by the book. Soldiers are accustomed to problem-solving and accomplishing goals under adverse conditions, such as directives pushed down from ‘echelons above reality’. That’s why a smart officer will find something to distract him once he’s passed on orders and his sergeant goes to work, doing what he does best.

    The red pill among soldiers would be off the books. Once it goes viral among the NCOs, you’ll get the rest.

  69. Martel,

    The diversity of the military is a main reason I believe the red pill in the military would grow the red pill trend: Soldiers who enter the Army from various groups and geographies will, as veterans, return to those groups and geographies with their experience, which can include the red pill.

    Moreover, many veterans go to college, including trend-setting ‘Cathedral’ Ivy-and-peer colleges. It’s one thing for college kids to talk shit about the military as an abstraction; when veterans are their classmates, it’s an different interpersonal dynamic. Imagine red pilled student-veterans shotgun-spreading across the nation’s campuses. The red pill will help them adjust to college life and seize the special rewards the college setting offers to red pill men. And, the older worldly ladies’ men on campus can mentor their younger beta classmates just as they were mentored as young soldiers, one beer (or whatever) at a time.

    Incubate red pill among soldiers and improve their lives, then spread red pilled veterans throughout civilian society, including and especially ‘Cathedral’ college campuses, where the red pill incubates again. The red pill trend spreads from campuses and red pilled men graduate into broader society where they keep the red pill ‘virus’ going.

    Now, I have worked with female soldiers whom I respected. My 1st NCOIC was female and she was good at her job. The best of them were West Point grads who met male standards and had solid bearing as officers. But I also experienced the downside of female soldiers discussed here. By nature, soldiering is not a gender-neutral profession and the women who keep up with the men are the exceptions. Just from a physical standpoint, the book at MEPS says some MOS’s don’t require heavy lifting. What the book neglects to say is every soldier’s job includes ‘common tasks’ and other physical activities that are not covered in its MOS descriptions.

    The SecDef’s parting shot, opening front-line combat roles for women, means a red pill injection into the ranks is *urgently* needed. The change is different than overturning DADT. Gay men are men with the same capability to do male-oriented soldier tasks.

    Women have been serving ad hoc on the front lines (as distinctly defined in the War on Terror) due to the nature of the mission, but once it becomes doctrine, then the relationship will become full-time, extending into the TO and training, not just based on mission needs.

    Any official guidance pushed down from DoD about implementing the change will be politically correct. Like I said, it presents an opportunity. The red pill is already a solution for problems identified among military men. Civilian red pill men have a body of experience using the red pill to navigate feminized workplaces. With this latest news and the consequences feared to follow, red pill knowledge is needed that much more, and as soon as possible, by soldiers.

  70. @ Eric, and this’ll have to be the last comment before we locked in here…

    I completely agree that the military has a higher percentage of men who understand what masculinity is and means than any other branch of society. I agree that the vast majority of guys in the military would get the red pill if it was laid out to them, and I agree that the quickest way to show the reality of the FI to young men is to demonstrate the preferential treatment women expect and receive when in harms’ way, when ostensibly they are all doing the same job.

    Your reply to Martel, shows where we think differently. You see the redpill as making it possible to navigate a feminized workspace. I see it as the scales dropping, when you look around and realise that you are totally screwed if you stay, unless you start looking out only for #1. And that is the civilian mentality. So I don’t think the military can contain both women and redpill men. Either they push the women out (fragging, slut-shaming, fat shaming, whatever), which is going to have to go up against the whiteknighting from the higher ups, or they will just won’t re-enlist,and go and do something more purposeful.

  71. well I’ll be dipped in shit and rolled in fire ants if Eric’s comment and much of Rollo’ s article didn’t describe me in all kinds of ways. There are reasons all my friends are vets or active duty

    Any rate, I tell folks 6 plus years of combat was easier then marriage and if I were ever to have the ptsd it would be from the ex wife and not the wars. Every young trooper I know who has eaten his gun has done so over woman troubles.

    All you who think playing led tag with hajji is easy, come on down and give it a try. What’s alpha about it? How many days can you hump a 150 pounds of gear up and down mountains? How many of you can lay out an ambush and stay awake for days waiting to pull it? Or hit @ man 800 meters away with rifle, laugh at incoming fire or being good enough at your job and respected enough that 40 young men are eager to follow you into injun territory?

    To be fair most of the bad shit is true to various degrees but their is no finer job then being a grunt, and or cav scout and nothing better then helping the young troopers develop

  72. were you ever in Service?

    as a 19 year active duty HM, i’ve seen more human suffering and dismemberment than one should be exposed to.

    the militart is simply a microcosm of the civilian world. military guys can actually be MORE beta than civilian guys. i see dudes absolutely supplicating to 6’s.

    i REFUSE to get into realtionships with military women. fuck….YES. LTR….no. i’m SURROUNDED by green HM’s (guys who did time with Marine’s in the suck). all of us have PSTD and are the most laid back bastards you’ll ever see.

    thanks for this post. stay up.

  73. Over at the Woman and the Dragon, SSM’s latest post about girls mixing with Boy Scouts dovetails with this post:

    The Boy Scouts are like the junior version of the Army in that they’re both based on the traditional men’s gender role. They both embody traditional masculinity in men’s terms, but also presume men’s traditional reciprocal and complementary relationship with the traditional women’s gender role. Both aspects have been needed to advance our civilization. The problem is modern feminism has withdrawn women from the traditional gender bargain. Many men haven’t caught on and continue to carry out our side of the broken gender bargain and pass the role onto our boys. Thus, what used to be a healthy reciprocal civilization-sustaining relationship has become a toxic giver-taker relationship. What I hope for the red pill spreading in the military is protection of the aspect of traditional masculinity in men’s terms while, in the other aspect, updating outmoded presumptions on gender relations.


    MGTOW isn’t the only option to deal with encroaching feminine imperative, either in the civilian world or the military. Morpheus, Neo et al didn’t just hole up in Zion after taking the red pill, right? They armed themselves and engaged the Matrix on their terms. Moreover, the military community has more depth and resilience to it than you might think. Our military, after all, is a community with a deeply carved heritage older than the nation itself.

    Comparitively, the military is still better off for men, a Zion compared to most of civilian society. Even with PC impositions from without and above and resulting frictions, the military organically still is predominantly a masculine-defined space with a lopsidedly male majority where men interact with men on masculine terms.

    On one hand, that makes them more vulnerable to FI conquistador-like encroachment compared to men who are made savvier from living within a feminine-defined space. On the other hand, a practical men’s club with a male majority sharing men’s concerns and the comparitive distance from the FI centers of power in civilian society provide for a fertile and relatively protected space for the red pill to take root. For a martial analogy, plug in any instance a military force used a sheltered space to reprogram, rearm, and recover. For us, that instance might be General Washington and Baron von Steuben reworking the Continental Army at Valley Forge.

  74. Ton,

    Yep. Rollo’s Mr. Softee post motivated me to respond because I don’t want the baby thrown out with the bathwater. As seen in these comments, for folks without a personal understanding of the military, it’s easy to mix together the parts that are essentially masculine and should be preserved with the parts that need updating and fixing. As I said, I learned an appreciation of manhood as a soldier that I most likely wouldn’t have learned as a civilian. That’s precious and an opportunity I want kept intact for younger generations of American men.

    “nothing better then helping the young troopers develop”

    This pinpoints why I believe the red pill would succeed in the military – its essential ‘jedi-padawan’ masculine tribal tradition of elders guiding young men to manhood. After Basic/AIT or OSUT, soldiers learn more from what’s passed to them from their elders than from classes, manuals, or top-down directives. Make the red pill a part of NCO culture and it will spread in the ranks.


    “military guys can actually be MORE beta than civilian guys. i see dudes absolutely supplicating to 6′s.”

    Supply and demand, right? They need the red pill and you have the supply.

  75. Eric, 24 years as an infantryman with a short stint as an impromptu cav scout and by far the best part was mentoring young men. It is what I will miss the most

    I have about 8 years total down range time, starting in 1989 and ended my 6th deployment for the “global war on terror” last month. I’ve seen what you’ve seen Danny, seen it done to friends and done those things to others. None of it stacks up to what marriage did to me. I have friends I miss, friends who are missing parts of their body and soul. I know families without sons and brothers. I know widows and broken children without fathers and have all those things within my own family. I’ve been blamed for the death of a son because my stories made him enlisted. I know men with ptsd who have less time down range then I do, and have hear fobits bitch about ptsd when the worse thing the saw was the occasional,
    and ineffectual IDF attacks. And I know men with more time down range then me who still want more.

    I am frequently sad, think about these things for brief moments everyday but marriage did more emotional/ physiological harm. I stayed in the army for 24 years. Never left the line for a staff job even though it hurt my career, and volunteered to go back to Iraq/ A-Stan whenever it was an option. The why of it is complex but it took me many years to start dating and I often have to leave girl world/ dating life because the anger and bitterness comes back.

    I am not the only man with similar experiences, and I cannot began to count the number of times I’ve heard things like “Mosul is better then being home with the wife”, ” Baghdad or bitches, give me Baghdad”…

    The last young man I know who killed himself spent a year doing his job in Kandahar city, where he excelled, came home, found out about his wife and killed himself in front of her before we went on leave.

    Marriage is worse

  76. Ton,

    My 1st taste was mail call in Basic Training and the Dear John letters to guys in my platoon who had joined in order to make a better life for their wives and/or kids – decent men ‘manning up’ for their families. As a romantic idealist and believer of relational equity, I didn’t believe the Dear John stereotype was real until I witnessed it.

    I can’t think of a demographic of American men who deserve better and need the red pill more than military men. They’re ready for it.

  77. Yep, 1st awol I saw was in boot camp when this fat guy’s wife went feral. We called him cake and he was holding steady during the most demanding event in his life until then. The red pill never occurred to me at the time. I was to green and still thought most women were like my grandmother

    This last trip we had 7 out of 15 wives go feral, and one that went a whoring while we were packing up. Or get caught at it. Who knows the real number? None of the boys have done anything stupid, but I did have work hard to keep one from divorcing like a beta

    Work was the perfect place to lay down red pill reality since there were no women to file a complaint. Older men owe younger men. Of course in this area I learn a lot from the youngsters as well

  78. Rollo: “This comment thread is an excellent example of another, and much broader, social institution, the military, the FI has both projected feminine primacy on, while ensuring that the beta chumps it depends on stay pliable, ignorant of, and useful to, the feminine imperative.”

    Ton: “Work was the perfect place to lay down red pill reality since there were no women to file a complaint.”

    A weak hold can maintain – and eventually tighten – its grip if left unchallenged.

    I’m not religious so I can’t speak with authority on the social structure of Church communities, but my understanding is their men’s spaces are rare and if they exist, there is little/no stand-off distance from FI consequences. In comparison, the military offers red pill proponents conditions that are more conducive to a pro-men’s counter-cultural movement – a social structure with a male majority of men who relate to men on men’s terms, male-dominated redoubts, and a stand-off distance where FI’s grip is relatively loose.

    Soldiers must still be careful about FI since the military is in the Matrix, but then, so was the Oracle’s ‘there is no spoon’ home school.

  79. I haven’t had time to read through all the replies, so perhaps this was covered already, but I notice that men who have been in the military tend to have an extremely high level of “Wight Knight” syndrome. If they even see a hint of a man acting (in his view) aggressively toward a woman, the White Knight will kick in, entirely regardless of the facts of what he is witnessing.

  80. I spent 6 years enlisted at 3/75, one of the elitist units in the Army. I did 3 tours in the GWOT (2 Afghanistan, 1 Iraq). If by describing alpha, you are saying the ability to command respect, remain calm under the most stressful of situations, tough, smart, resilient etc. we all fit that bill. The funny thing is, like has been mentioned some of these guys were hard as woodpecker lips and stronger than a garlic milkshake, but you get them around girls and it like they don’t know what to do. This is really surprising since there were girls that would come to the barracks and let guys run train on them. This spectacle was quite the eye opener for the 18 y/o version of me. I never thought that happened outside of porn. Anyhow, after seeing the way women acted while I was there I swore I would not get married during my time in the Army.

    Within a month of getting out, I got into a relationship with the woman who I would eventually marry. Six years later I was divorced. The six years of marriage were worse than anything I endured during my time in the Army; and I went to basically every badass school/training/selection that they offer, was wounded in combat, and have lost several friends whom I would have made groomsmen in my wedding party. The red pill would have likely made that relationship more bearable. However, she was quite the unruly cunt and I doubt it would have lasted even with red pill indoctrination because I would have assuredly left her.

    To the guys above who said the military is not alpha, the same can be said about any profession where someone else tells you what to do. The military just has to take things a bit further because in the heat of battle you cant have a bunch of quitters on your hands. Even running your own company requires you to take shit, because if your company doesn’t meet some demand set forth by the feminized society, you wont stay in business very long.

    My point is “Alphaness” comes from within, not from the profession of your choosing. The difference between a Ranger and a water purification specialist is at Ranger battalion every one there had to volunteer not just for the army, but also to jump out of planes and then to put up with Rip/ Ranger school and the higher standards set forth at the unit. Anyone can leave whenever they want. The pursuit of excellence and the unwillingness to compromise until it is achieved is alpha… which incidentally is also something that moistens loins. Unfortunately, the modern woman has taken that to mean that cock-hopping is the way to move up the high value mate ladder… i.e. If I keep upgrading I will get what I deserve eventually. Too bad those dumb hoes don’t realize that female’s projecting male alphaness is an undesirable trait to men.

  81. If anyone has any doubt about the depths to which the Feminine Imperative will dig in order to make sure that the narrative is always focused on the feminine, read no further than this:

    Even with overwhelming statistics indicating male suicide rates in the military, the Feminine Imperative will still seek to redefine and redirect the most heinous of tragedy back to itself as the more injured of victims.

  82. @Ton



    I’m not sure how to fix that issue. The FI created the problem. Relaxed standards in the military to accommodate splitails has allowed the weak-minded into the ranks as if the military is some sort of sociological petri dish. Naturally, suicides will increase when you add stress like actually going to combat. In my mind it is just thinning the herd… and it ought to be accelerated.

    Eventually the strong will put down the yolk of society and say “Fuck you pussy! Get your own shit.” Until then it’s just game bitches and look out for yourself and your friends. I’ve given trying to affect the things I have almost no control over and only focus on the things I do.

  83. well rollo they pretty much wait for you to commit suicid it takes a while to get help
    but if anyone has an award for combat you are entitled to a check

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