Field Reports

lion-chasing-gazelle

For the past three years of The Rational Male there’s been a consistent presence in the comment threads of guys seeking advice for particular situations with regards to Game. Whether it’s fine tuning certain aspects of Game or a larger consensus of the guys participating in my comment threads it’s become obvious there’s a need for a dedicated page and comment thread to address these Field Reports.

So I’m instituting this page for exactly this. If there is some urgency to have members of The Rational Male community analyze your particular situation feel free to hit anyone up in the comments of my current post, but please refer them to your particular field report with a link to your comment here. I’m hoping this will alleviate the mass of posts for field report analysis and Game specific insights piled into the main blog post for any given week.

There will be some rules for this “forum” as such. I ask that you only keep your comments to addressing the field reports at hand and save your larger theoretical stuff for the main posts, or if relevant, keep the “bigger scope of things” posts to being as succinct as possible. There will be no moderation in this comment thread (spamming excepted), so realize it will be a very hot kitchen before you post. I will impose no restrictions on video links here, nor will I limit links to various, but pertinent articles.

Understand, this is an experiment for now. It’s likely this comment thread will exceed thousands of comments. I’ll be instituting new comment plug-ins for wordpress to deal with this in the future, but I may archive this page the the posts and refresh this page in the future as well. If this gets cumbersome I may simply institute a dedicated forum-style sub-site of The Rational Male to accommodate for Game specific questions.

So have at it, post your field reports and feel free to comment on the ones you have some particular insight for. Be forewarned that it’s likely things may get a bit salty at times and I expect a lot of back & forth with debate and disagreements, but that’s what this thread is for – to hash out Game particulars for your given situations.

 

15,570 comments on “Field Reports

  1. @Palmsailor

    “She says “do you have a girlfriend”

    I said “not really” and she is totally shocked”

    So, is she looking to make you into boyfriend material?

    TantumErgo

  2. @Palmasailor

    “Anyway moving on, had a date with an Estonian tonight. It was odd, found her difficult to warm up. Either she just didn’t want to know or the rumours of then being cold until they know you have something to them. Anyone got any experience?”

    No experience with Estonians, but with a Belorusian (geographically as close to Estonia as I have yet been able to get …).

    She liked to test all the time, and was initially very cold, but being direct and sexualising worked very well. She was aware that she was attractive, and was used to swatting away guys like flies. By way of example:

    Me: Let’s meet for coffee before you have to go to work.

    Her: You don’t want to take me for coffee, you just want to fuck me.

    Me: Of course I want to fuck you! But I also want to take you out for coffee first.

    It worked a treat. 🙂

    TantumErgo

  3. For those with eyes covered…the point of my field report was that you can have a good time hanging with friends…and girls are just an added feature. You can be authentic and still have a good time.

    Amuse yourself first. Yeah, I flirt with girls and tell them sexy jokes and they don’t always like the jokes and that’s Ok.
    Amuse others to make yourself liked. Bring the party to others. Combine this with item 1.
    Console friends going through a rough patch. This helps you show that you’re authentic.
    Admit your mistakes and it’s Ok to feel silly about them. No need to apologize for peccadillos. This also helps show that you’re authentic.

    1. @SJF

      The inaugural ‘London Summit’ with @Palmsailor was good, and the first step in my education. 😊

      We ate, we drank, and we talked…

      @Palmsailor gave me some much-needed perspective on my Babushka affair, which is helping me to let go… as well as my most recent attempts with the half-Nicaruagan hottie. So that’s a good thing.

      In contrast to some of the stuff he has been through, I have actually gotten off quite lightly, although it hurts to have fallen in love with ‘the wrong woman’.

      I am dusting myself down, and need to get out into the field, especially as @Palmsailor rightly remarks that, in London: ‘There are a lot of women out there’.

      There’s hope for me yet. 😊

  4. Public Service Announcement: The YaReally Archive is back online again. Only showing posts from 2012/13 but that’s a start. Good to have it back online instead of relying on the PDF Book of YaReally or messing around finding it on the Internet Archive etc.

  5. Number one problem in my view is you’re broke, so what you gonna do about that?

    Number one is knowing – doing gap.

  6. @J

    Thanks a ton. Went through all of them. Great insights. He mentions that he studied Gunwitch’s Seduction MMA extensively. Tried to find that program on torrents. They all were fakes. Do you know where I can download that program?

  7. Is this still running, I’m looking for some assistance, wonder if this is still the place. Thanks in advance

    1. @Justin Beers

      Still running, and very much the place to come to for good advice. 🙂

      TantumErgo

  8. Fred, be careful to not confuse pickup with game. Sentient is pushing pickup. Rollo wrote a post about children with dynamite where the children know pickup but have no game. “Mystery” himself lacked game and was dumped by his gf because he lacked game. (Erik von Markovic goes by his nickname “Mystery.”)

    “Is Erik von Markovik married? Yes, he was but his current marital status is not available. He was having a tough time with his wife with whom Markovik is a father to a child. He posted a picture on his Facebook account with his daughter and seems like he was psychologically collapsed. It is said that his wife took away his child and court has given special priority to her.”

    https://incomenetworth.com/erik-von-markovik-bio-age-married-wife-net-worth-wiki-and-books.html

    Start by learning game…spinning plates, etc…from Rollo. Add Mystery after that if you want to do pickup. You don’t need pickup to get women. Social circle works fine and is how most players get women.

  9. Funny little snippet… So this married neighbor was out at a couples thing recently. She’s a total SJW and browbeats her handsome beta hubby. Saw her at a party six months ago did some teasing etc. from a dominant bon SJW frame. She lapped it up. Was the FR when she came back 10 or more feet to hug me goodbye.

    Anyhow it’s amazing how much these card carrying feminists crave someone telling them what to do. I’ve seen a ton of this from divorced moms over the last month. About a third of the moms on our teams are divorced and they are practically begging for direction with their kids.

    Anyhow she and hubby are discussing whether their 12yo can walk 60 feet to their house next door… She is saying “you make th3 call” to him and he is all deer in the headlights stammering “uh what do you think” to her and she is getting more disgusted with each iteration “I said you decide” back to him. Kid is whining. He’s like “I’m deferring”. She looks like she is going to puke.

    I lean in and stage whisper to him “just tell the kid OK” so je does and the kid splits.

    Later she comes over and we are chatting a bit, a little kino. Hypergamy busting out all over. At the goodbyes we are all going and she comes straight over, in the midst of all of us, my W right there saying goodbye to some others and as she gets to me she’s got a smirk on, she squares up to me toe to toe and thrusts her hips forward right on my cock while she puts her hands on my shoulders. I slide my hand down to her hip waist area and give her a good hard squeeze. Keep my hands there. She’s still pushing her hips forward on me. And we’re lookimg right into each other’s eyes.

    She goes “feeling me getting fat?” And cocks her eye at me. I smirk amd whisper in jer ear “go on. Get out of hear you” and push jer past me with a pat on her back.

    Wife must have seen the whole thing. Went back home and 🔥 🔥 🔥 three alarm….

    I almost feel bad for these women sometimes. These guys are so not there… Jellyfish.

    She was so forward… Open Hypergamy definitely going mainstream.

  10. Sentient – did you see that the Bastiat Blogger has taken his blog private? I wanted to go re-read his Septivium thoughts with my new self-improvement perspective and now I have to search around on the Internet Archive.

    @Fred Smith – welcome to the FR section. All you need is YaReally’s advice, and then to put it into action instead of reading more and more stuff and buffering yourself from going out and taking action (YaReally was a fantastic PUA who used to post a lot here in the comments and in the Heartiste comments and he helped a lot of people, but the website archiving his posts went down and is now back but with only a fraction of his posts).

    Once you’ve read the absolute basics, go out and try it and post Field Reports here and everyone will break it down and help you (PS – Most of the Game advice here is good, most of the posters are just trying to tell you the same thing from different perspectives and we agree on the fundamentals even if there are arguments about various nuances. The exception is @theasdgamer who is a really nice guy and is trying to help you, but unfortunately is not just reliably wrong, but will also succeed in confusing you even more than you were before if you are a newbie, because he knows just enough jargon that he doesn’t understand to thoroughly confuse someone).

    Sentient’s already posted YaReally’s list of basic game resources. Let me add one more thing which I am cutting and pasting below because I think I saved it from his Heartiste posts and I’m not sure it’s on the Internet anymore – it’s YaReally’s basic newbie guide to going out and taking action – the most important part of Game (note: the post is YaReally responding to someone asking how to go out solo and build a night life social circle so he’s talking more about making friends and contacts than pulling girls, but exactly the same thing applies to girls – you just do everything he does in the post and also go and open 30 girls in a night – although that will depend a little on your skill level and sticking points – for eg, if you’ve got over your approach anxiety, you don’t really need to open 30 girls – you can open far fewer and focus on getting numbers or making out, or sexually escalating or pulling home, or whatever your sticking point is):

    ‘—YaReally post on Building a Nightlife Social Circle—

    Someone who needs a gameplan. Allow me to provide one for you. Don’t skim this post, read every word:

    Month 1:
    1) Go to a bar on a Friday night. Chat up 5 guys and 5 girls WITHOUT trying to fuck them, just talk about plain normal small-talk (for guys talk about sports/chicks/videogames, for girls talk about relationship advice (pretend you have a girlfriend, this’ll disqualify you as someone hitting on them so they won’t be as on guard or bitchy to you)/congratulate them on whatever b’day, wedding, etc. they’re celebrating/ask them where the bathroom is or for directions to another bar where your “girlfriend” is waiting etc.) and exchange names. Do the same with 1 or 2 bartenders and/or waitresses and/or shooter girls, who are paid to be friendly to you. If anyone asks where your friends are, say they’re coming later but you got there too early, and if anyone asks you where your friends are later in the night, say they got too drunk and stayed in but you hate staying in so you figured you’d come out for a drink. Leave as soon as you finish your 10 sets. For a mixed set of multiple guys/girls, every person you exchange names with in that group counts toward your 10 sets.

    2) Next weekend go to the same bar. Chat up 5 guys and 5 girls and say hello to any of the people there who you talked to last week and chat with the same bartenders/waitresses/etc. as last week.

    3) Next weekend go to the same bar. Chat up 5 guys and 5 girls and say hello to any of the people there who you talked to last week and chat with the same staff as last week.

    4) Next weekend go to the same bar. Chat up 5 guys and 5 girls and say hello to any of the people there who you talked to last week and chat with the same staff as last week.

    Congratulations. It’s one month from you reading this very post right this minute. You spent 1-4 hours of each week for a total maximum of about 16 hours of your entire 672 hour month, and you have 40 people who, even if only 25% of them are regulars, gives you a solid 10 people who frequent the bar on Fridays since people are creatures of habit and like to go to their favorite bars, and they know you by name and you can make small talk or flirt with them for social proof.

    For month 2, do the same thing, but do it on Saturday night as well, at a different bar.

    Now you have two bars where you have a total of anywhere from around 10-80 people who recognize you enough to say “Hey what’s up man, how’s it going, this place is crazy tonight hey?” or do a shot together or what-have-you. You also have anywhere from 4-16 staff members who recognize you and know you by name and will occasionally give you free shots if they’re male bartenders or come up to you and flirt/grope you if they’re female shooter girls.

    Do that for 6 months and in half a year you own your city’s downtown nightlife.

    Don’t drink more than a beer or two when you’re out, save your money to move to a bigger city with a better nightlife. Also consider getting a roommate where you are now, or moving in with a roommate in a bigger city.

    While you save your money up to move, you can enjoy the fruits of your socializing labor in your current city when whatever cute chicks ARE around want to suck your dick because you seem to be the most important high-value guy in the city who knows people at every bar.

    Guess what you’re going to do after you move? Same shit, except you’ll be even better and smoother at it because you’ll have done it once before. 4-8 hours of your week for a few months in your new city and you’ll have all the social proof and pre-selection you could ask for, in a city where you have a better selection of hotties to fuck.

    Make the first month your New Years resolution and start on either New Years Eve or the weekend right after NYE. Don’t miss a single weekend unless it’s an emergency. By summer you will have the shit you currently envy and don’t realize is COMPLETELY within your grasp.

  11. Great stuff Palma. Underscores why these fakers like Bitch Muscles and George Homo are so detestable.

  12. “practically begging for direction with their kids.”
    Young men have no guidance and they need it.

    You know what is interesting in what has happened with young men and women these days?

    There is less and less contact with older, experienced and successful people.

    Over the 1.5 million or so years of human existence, it is only for about the past one hundred years that most people have gone to anyone other than the oldest person they knew for solutions to life’s problems. Anthropologists tell us that in prehistoric times, the accumulated wisdom of older people was a key to human survival. The old were the source of tried and tested experience, the true “elders” whom group members sought out in times of crisis.

    So consulting older people is a natural thing for humans to do. In our society, we may not go to our elders for advice on the latest app or news about the teen celebrity of the moment. But for the big questions of life—and especially ones involving love and marriage—we, too, can profit from the time-honored tradition of seeking the advice of our elders.–Karl Pillemer

    Pillemer interviewd a bounch of old couples and distilled their wisdom about happy, successful LTR’s. He found that most of their advice was valid and valuable because of the fact that they were at the end of life and there was no mystery as to how everything will turn out–it’s already happend for them.

    (And) That vast reservoir of life experience leads to a special way of thinking about shit—and one that can enrich your life and your relationship.

    The YaReally counter argument (with Whine) is that everything is changed now. These old fuckers don’t know anything because they aren’t playing in my field banging HB8+<25. So fuck off old fuckers.
    Is the elder's advice really relevant to younger people with social media, change in Open Hypergamy, need for Preventative Medicine, raw deal marriage, Etc.

    Well, yeah. That's because after facts and grammar, logic and understanding, their is Rhetoric and Wisdom that has a solid basis. It's not just twisting in the wind and ephemeral.

    No one knows how to (or is too lazy or stupid) get mentors these days. And no one knows how to get wingmen or buddies or a tribe of men, good at being men.

    I do know this, you won't find anyone, I don't think, with more wisdom and experience at being good in his own skin and being good at being an "attractive" (in whole, not just looks) than a guy like Palmasailor. I say this having read his book, and conversing with him offline. Those guys should pay extra for the full Palmasailor experience when renting the AirBnB. Look at how much they got for so little. Because they bothered to ask.

    GFASOW. Go fucking ask someone older and wiser. GAFM. Get a fucking mentor.

  13. “If I’m lucky, when one of them is 50 and I’m dead, one might have led a decent life because he learned something from the old fool that night 30 years ago..”

    Well, see there you go. Most inspiration on the path to Mastery and Talent (in anything) comes usually from an external source. That seems paradoxical, but it is not.

    These guys don’t usually sit in a sensory deprivation tank and dream up the next best path to greatness.

    I have an acquaintance who’s sons are depressed. The older one MGTOW at 20. They have no inspiration. The younger one had some medical issues and surgery. They are in a state of Stasis. Stasis is akin to Death or Dying.

    The dad is hoping they get off their ass and be inspired by magically being inspired and motivated. I was trying to point out that they need to be shown 200 different things (be exposed to things), have other inspirational people to see what might be a positive spark. They won’t listen to his motivation speeches or complaints any more. But he can still expose them to someone or something or that might spark them.

    Then the ignition spark might lead to a path. And to some other human interaction as a mentor.

  14. Palma

    “I’m thinking next Monday / Tuesday and “hows your head baby girl 🖕?””

    Based on her being in the medical field at that age, and assuming you mean she is in “Accident and Emergency” (I’ve never heard that reference in the States), you might want to neg or test her with if she lost any patients she might have saved recently. Or tap into her feelings of stress at work in some way. And get her to get a Feelz that she can relieve stress by having a drink with you.

    And if you are a sneaky fucker, you might want to find what her schedule is at the hospital if you didn’t already suss that out. This, in order to time what might be good days to hookup with her, or to text her. Text her after a stressful stretch of work when she needs to blow off steam.

  15. Passing on accumulated knowledge.

    This.

    I can’t imagine life without the stuff I’d learned from men x2-x3 times my age.

    Back in the 80’s, one of my hobbies was collecting samurai style/era swordage. Lol, back then you could by them in NYC at a dozen different stores.

    A man who’d taught/explained dozens of things to me also collected all kinds of weaponry, including samurai swords, asked me ” you want me to show you how to make one from scratch and how to get the perfect edge on it? “. I almost pissed myself in excitement.

    He learned from 3 different ( old Japanese) men. So when he showed me, he was actually forwarding skills learned from 3 other men. Sadly, he’s gone now. That man was a treasure trove of practical knowledge.

    Everything I know that’s really useful, I’ve learned from older men. The idea among young men that ” everything is different/changed ” damages their ability to rise above the herd of ” average ” men. Today it’s ” why would I need to do that? I can just buy/let somebody else do it “. Actually doing shit yourself? I.can’t express how much of a confidence builder that is, and that confidence becomes almost infinitely transferable – even to women and sex.

    Things don’t really change all that much. It depends on whether you want to learn the skills and put in effort. If you want to follow the herd off the cliff, that’s on you and it’s got nothing to do with ” change “. You gotta understand what happened before you got here, or else everything will look new.

    And you might find that you’re a sucker in others frame.

  16. “Ok it means that she deals with the stuff that’s almost road kill and dragged in off the streets almost dead and has to keep it alive.”

    So if she has any soul, that’s stressful. Tease and relieve her stress in an artful way.

    Good luck!

  17. I’ll play with her by text Monday / Tuesday to find out when her shift ends and pitch for that.

    Speaking from a medical job standpoint, you want to suss out her work schedule. Usually in medicine it is not a five day week. It might b 3 or 4 twelve hour shifts in a week. What days, how many days, how many hours?

    What you are angling for is logistics. You don’t want to blow off steam one night and she has to go into work hung-over the next early morning. That’s OK if you don’t want to angle for a SNL and keep it brief the first night and angle for a 2nd or 3rd date lay.

    I’m not suggesting PUA advice, and you know that. I’m just speaking to how medical shifts work and how that could play into Your Game by getting into her head for logistics. Thinking how a cat on a string would think.

    You either want her working the next day, and feel her out. Or you want a blow-out time where she doesn’t work the next day. Your choice of strategy.

    So a simple what days do you work? and what is your time shifts at the hospital will suffice.

  18. I have heard it said that in 1415 about 5000 lads from all across England and Wales showed up in a little country town outside of Calais to celebrate Saint Crispin’s Day with a wee bit o’ shooting sport. Hearing of this, 30,000 Frenchmen showed up at exactly the right time and place to make sure that the lads from across the Channel had a good time by making sure that they were well supplied with targets.

    Of course I know this is some sort of fable, because in those days there was no Internet and the sort of communication and organization to accomplish that, and with such speed, is simply unpossible.

  19. @Palma

    “Next thing, the fog horn at the end of the bar asks me what my wine is”.

    Good. Preselection activated.

    “Finally they decide to leave and invite me with them”.

    Nice!

    “the gay is cock blocking”

    Why? Were you ignoring him? In my experience: gay friend likes you = pretty much 100% guarantee you will close the girl you’re interested in. They are really good wingman and if your girl is on the fence, they will help make it happen.

    “plus the fog horn is minging drunk”

    ok if she was that drunk, then number closing her is pretty much useless (and the ensuing discussions here about logistics are stupid). If you like her enough, then you gotta close. If not, then don’t even bother bro lol. She ain’t gonna remember shit.

    “3rd I’m not gonna “follow” and step into their frame / go to 3 am etc”

    Here’s the big lesson for you big guy: You aren’t stepping into their “frame”, by following them. The frame is whatever YOU think it is. If YOU think the frame is you’re a beta bitch if you follow them, so better make a fake excuse about meeting up with friends later, then that becomes the frame. If you’re frame is, “I’m accepting her invitation to go with them because it’s gonna help move the seduction forward and give me more time to really befriend the gay guy who doesn’t like me right now, and more importantly, give me that much needed 1-on-1 time with my girl (banter/=game), so I can close her tonight. So of course I’m gonna go with them lol” then THAT becomes the frame.

    This is how those memorable adventures happen. They all start with making that one decision: “eh. fuck it. let’s see what happens.”

    “I’m thinking next Monday / Tuesday and “hows your head baby girl 🖕?”

    Her: who is this?

  20. I have to say it. Sorry, as the mother of boys (who have never been bullied, and kick ass) I have to.
    Karate is shite for self defense.
    Never recommend karate to combat bullies…
    to get any level of experience it takes years, and even then boxers tend to be able to beat up martial arts practitioners.
    Boxing teaches boys how to punch (unlike the fake air punches in “sparring” modern day martial arts dojos).
    Jiu Jitsu is even better.
    There’s a video of a Jiu Jitsu guy taking out Chuck Norris very quickly.

    1. @Liz
      @ Blaximus / @theasdgamer
      @ Palmasailor

      Blaximus: I take on board that you have boxed and practiced one of the Chinese in-fighting styles of Martial Arts (Wing Chun?)

      theasdgamer: Tae Kwon Do?

      Liz: Now to your post.

      Firstly, my cards on the table: 11 years of Judo, and 20 solid years of Karate (still training).

      ” I have to say it. Sorry, as the mother of boys (who have never been bullied, and kick ass) I have to.
      Karate is shite for self defense.”

      Not necessarily: It depends on the focus of training. If purely for sport / competition point-sparring, then not as effective as Boxing.
      If for self-defense, then Karate is as effective as any other Martial Art / fighting system — it depends on the intention of the practitioner, not just the system, and also training under pressure — ie dealing with the real prospect of being hit if you do not defend yourself properly.
      When I started Karate in Scotland, this was always a prospect. But then the Scots love a fight. 😁
      Also, when I began my study of Karate, children were not permitted, as it was felt that they lacked the mental, emotional and physical maturity for disciplined training. Not so these days, unfortunately.

      “Never recommend karate to combat bullies…”

      Agreed.

      “… to get any level of experience it takes years, and even then boxers tend to be able to beat up martial arts practitioners.”

      Boxing is certainly effective, but ANY pugilistic or fighting art takes years to master to the extent that a practitioner can use the techniques learned at will.

      “Boxing teaches boys how to punch (unlike the fake air punches in “sparring” modern day martial arts dojos).”

      Yes it does, but punching with boxing gloves requires the hand to be semi-open — not good for self-defence. Better still to teach boys how to hit a heavy bag with a closed fist or open-hand strikes.

      Karate (or any Martial Art) for self-defence ≠ competition point-sparring.

      ” Jiu Jitsu is even better.”

      Risk of injury is very high in Jiu-jitsu if the practitioner is unskilled (it employs joint locks, as well as throws, strikes and kicks). Generally, Jiu-jitsu is not suitable for children.

      “There’s a video of a Jiu Jitsu guy taking out Chuck Norris very quickly.”

      Norris was a renowned fighter, so, care to post the link?

      TantumErgo

  21. @Sentient – thanks.

    Just re-read your FR – what the married chick did sounds incredibly intimate and forward right in front of your wife -if I understand correctly she was basically in position to kiss you, especially if she’d moved her hands from your shoulders to around your neck? It’s one thing giving you a hug – but why didn’t her husband and your wife flip out when this happened?

    @Palma – With the caveat about what @j said (basically if she was that drunk it would have been difficult for you to get a solid number where she remembers you – not impossible, just difficult), you can try some stuff. Suggest you read the old YaReally Archive stuff about text game – still the best resource there by miles (let me know if you don’t have the full archive after it went down – I have the whole thing somewhere – also there was another posted called Ripp on the Archive who had some good text game advice).

    Keep in mind that even YaReally was moving away from text game by the time he left because it is so difficult to make an impression on girls when not there with them in person anymore (again, discussed in detail in the Archive).

    Having said all of that, your play here is not to ask a question. You want to be adding value/spiking her emotions over text by making a statement (or a question if the question spikes her emotion – “how’s your head” doesn’t do that), and when (if!) she responds and you have her laughing or otherwise emotionally spiked, then you hit her up for a meetup immediately – ideally that day, or possibly the next day. The longer ahead you plan the more likely she will flake – and 25 year olds flake a lot. If she can’t meet that evening, drop it and repeat the routine – spiking emotions+meetup in a few days again (ideally you will also have some idea of her logistics and her hospital shifts or whatever so you’re not repeatedly texting at the wrong time).

    How you spike her emotions is up to you (and her personality). Scray used to send funny GIFs and memes, and made his own. I used to send a picture of a lion biting a lioness’ tail and say the picture reminded me of her (picture shamelessly stolen from @walawala when he posted it years ago) or some other lines. Etc.

  22. “…with a wee bit o’ shooting sport”

    Lots of arrows flung, “a terrifying hail of arrow shot”.

    I just received a nice looking Chinese compound bow, purchased off of a computer site (Newegg, nonetheless) for $160.95. I started setting it up, but I’m not sure what my draw length is. Good thing is I have a buddy to ask, rather than Google search it.

    But I don’t have anyone to battle and my city ordinances prevent me from shooting arrows in my back yard. But my farm has lots of antler-less whitetail deer. And no such silly regulations.

  23. @Blax – mostly agree with you, but this:

    “Everything I know that’s really useful, I’ve learned from older men. The idea among young men that ” everything is different/changed ” damages their ability to rise above the herd of ” average ” men. Today it’s ” why would I need to do that? I can just buy/let somebody else do it “. Actually doing shit yourself? I.can’t express how much of a confidence builder that is, and that confidence becomes almost infinitely transferable – even to women and sex.”

    This is the same old discussion with YaReally and Scray about “girls are different now/things are different now”.

    As I’ve said repeatedly – both sides are accurate. It’s like that old saying about “history doesn’t repeat itself but it does rhyme”.

    Girls are still girls and men are still men – the core principles don’t change but the environment in which they are applied does. Or to put it another way, strategy does not change but tactics do.

    Or yet another way, the core principles of war haven’t changed in millenia – that’s why people still study Sun Tzu and Clausewitz etc – but you do have to account for the fact that the environment has changed and armies no longer engage in cavalry charges or use archers to break a charge.

  24. Oh and Palma – remember to sexualize just a bit over text – especially if she doesn’t remember much about your conversation. You don’t need a lot, just a bit of flirting or innuendo to make it clear and remind her you’re interested in her as a woman and it’s not an asexual meetup with a kindly uncle type.

  25. Liz, I agree with you about boxing to some degree. At least over Karate. During my last fight, I used a side kick against a much better boxer. “Take your dough” it might be called (Tae Kwan Do), but it worked for me. One thing I have is a good sense of distance and timing.

    I was having trouble clicking upvote on your post and tried the downvote (which worked), but the upvote still doesn’t work. Just on your post.

  26. Asd

    If you tried to kick me, I’d break your leg in 3 places.😂

    But I like you, so I’d drive you to the E.R. And help you inside.

    Boxer who studied martial arts. Agree, ju jitsu is more practical, and most arts take years of relentless study, but the close methods of select arts are hard as fuck for untrained street brawler bully those to deal with. You’re not really going to ” learn ” in a class of 20 people punching air, and that’s as far as most people get.

    I have nephews that are becoming really proficient in MMA. As a boxer, if I was their age now, I don’t think I’d beat them in a fight. I’d stand a chance, which is more than a random asshole looking for a fight though.

    The best way to learn how to fight is still by actually fighting.

  27. Culum

    Yeah it was incredibly forward. She squared right up. Toe to toe and pushed her pussy right on my cock. So her waist was forward and her shoulders back a bit.

    My read is they did both see. And concluded this was inevitable. Wild. But exactly what rollo is righting about. Guys happy to share and women happy to share. Well happy is too strong but willing… That fits.

    She was a real handful after for sure so nerve struck.

    We shall see though. This womennia gone for a month and I never see her out.

    Palma

    I’m with J on the frame battle thing. There is a time tonframe battle and a time to go along WITH the proviso that you take the frame back. This is covered in MM, where you take the hoop from her amd make her jump through. I think of it as “yes, but…” So you agree but then set your own hoop to get compliance right back.

  28. Lol, Blax, my last fight was decades ago and I don’t wanna fight you. You’re too much fun and, besides, I’d just look pathetic for beating up an old man.

  29. Palma

    So the hoop grab here would be go along but lead them to a place you choose.

    And concur about fags… Especially if it’s one. They try hard to be the center of attention and have very strong frames.

  30. Norris was a renowned fighter, so, care to post the link?

    I like Chuck Norris. I’m sure they’ve tried to keep this on the DL but (it’s in the last minute or so):

    I’ve known a few folks who were really good at martial arts and then schooled by a skinny Brazillian Jiu Jitsu practitioner.
    It’s what the guy used to combat the attacker on that train in Paris (and he was not a Jiu Jitsu master).
    I agree an unskilled instructor can be harmful though (and my spouse went to one, many years ago, was injured and gave it up until a few years back when he found a really good, reputable instructor…then introduced it to our boys).
    Palmasailor’s explanation makes sense though (and provides context).
    If the mother wasn’t willing to take her kid to a place to learn real fighting, karate is better than nothing.

    1. @Liz

      Thanks for the video link to the Chuck Norris v Gracie seminar demo.

      So, the Gracie family are the founders of what is now known as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (BJJ), and in the early days of MMA, their fighters cleaned up.

      BJJ concentrates on close-quarter combat (excellent for self-defence): throws, arm-locks andstrangulations (for submission), but with less emphasis on the striking techniques (‘atemi-waza’) found in Japanese Jiu-jitsu. It is very similar to Kosen Judo.

      Their grandfather, Helios, earned the right to teach his ‘brand’ of Jiu-jitsu by defeating every Japanese Kodokan Judo champion sent to Brazil to make him ‘conform’. He was pretty Alpha!

      I take your point about the dangers and risk of injury resulting from poor instruction.

      I have always been very fortunate in that all my instructors have either been Japanese or Japanese-trained (Judo, as well as Karate).

      And, yes, @Palmsailor sets the context very well — as he invariably does. 😊

      TantumErgo

  31. FR from last Fri. night at my fav. country bar…just noticing what girls do…

    Girl #1 is married, mid-30s, bangable…I got her name wrong and have danced with her a lot…she wants me to continue using the wrong name with her…she also calls me “Darling” occasionally, which I see as beta bait…I think her preference for the wrong name is so that she can pretend like she’s another person with me and won’t be held accountable. She might wanna bang me “just because”. There’s no great chemistry, but there’s easy access and I’m “hot enough” for her, maybe. And she knows I’m also married and I’ve told her that married girls aren’t on my menu, so she has to chase. And she sees me as “in the market” I suspect. And being married, it’s “just for fun.”

    Girl #2 is married, mid-20s, bangable…she wants to dance with me as much as I will let her…it seems that she has feelz for me. I suspect that she’s looking for someone on the side who she can “care about” who’s hotter than her husband. I have no idea what her fucking name is, lol.

  32. It’s been awhile since I posted but enjoy reading the comments, figured I’d give a report of Saturday night. I had a buddy come in from out of town and he wanted to hit a country bar, he was in town with one of his friends and his daughter was also there. Fairly early in the night I’m standing there talking with them and a chubby girl comes up and ask me if I dance, I say yes I do and if she wanted to dance to the current song. She ask “can you keep up?”, my reply “sure I can, will you be able too?” and then I take her out there for a spin to the song and make a good impression. I rarely ever turn a girl down that ask for a dance, even if she is not attractive other women will see you out there dancing and it can peak their interest, it also shows you know how to dance. This girl came up about 7 times through the night to dance with me, she wanted somebody to take her home but it wasn’t going to be me. My buddy jokes that the girl is looking my way and about to head over so I should go find a tall blonde to dance with as a joke. Friends giving you grief definitely helps with the courage, I had checked out a tall young blonde earlier and went straight over and asked her to dance- we did but with some small talk it didn’t seem she was much interested in more than the dance, no big deal.

    While going to the bar to get a drink a good looking woman that looked mixed race grabs my arm and ask me if I dance and I tell her yes, she then tries to pawn me off on her friend to dance and of course the girl is like “no, I don’t want to dance (giggling)”- I tell the mixed girl “ah, don’t pawn me off on your friends, that’s not right but you let me know if you want to dance later”. About an hour later I’m walking around the the mixed girl grabs my shirt while walking past her and tells me she wants to dance. We make small talk and I find she is out there for her recent birthday with her girlfriends and she doesn’t know how to dance (she followed very well though and it wasn’t bad dancing with her)- we dance for 2 songs. We wound up dancing again later after several more drinks and she just doesn’t want to stop, feel her grabbing my back with her arm and putting her face into me a lot. I look close at her around the 3rd song and kiss her, songs over breaks into next song and we make out a bit on the floor there. I take her outside to get her phone number and kiss a bit more with some small talk.

    At the end of the night her friends are pulling her out to get the Uber home (I get the impression they would not let her leave alone), she tells me with some hesitance that she is dating a guy or two and she wanted to go out that night solo. I told her there was no judgement from me and that I’m dating myself and give her another kiss or two before her friends pull her into the ride home.

  33. So the forward one upthread contrives a way to come round my front porch – kid in tow – and establish phone contact on some pretext… All perfectly deniable.

    🐱

  34. MrBrian

    Sounds fun. You trying to be the chooser or the chosen though?

    “I had checked out a tall young blonde earlier and went straight over and asked her to dance- we did but with some small talk it didn’t seem she was much interested in more than the dance, no big deal.”

    Game > dancing

    Have you read Mystery Method? Can you breakdown what worked in the last interaction?

  35. @MrBrian

    “I look close at her around the 3rd song and kiss her, songs over breaks into next song and we make out a bit on the floor there. I take her outside to get her phone number and kiss a bit more with some small talk”.

    Do you wanna make out with hotties all night (cause girls are more than happy to do that with random strangers) or do you want to fuck hotties (less likely to do so than the former)? Because if you want to fuck her, then this wasn’t the move. The move was to, make an excuse to get her off the dance floor, and start build some comfort/getting investment from her. The sexual tension before you started making out with her was high, but if you just start making out with her like you did here, then poof its gone. So what you want to do instead is to maintain it, by fractionating.

    So now, your guys are sitting on a couch (she wants a kiss, so she will be compliant to you’re, “lets go sit right there for a bit I wanna ask you something”), talking to her about her hobbies, how was her birthday (girls favorite subject is themselves), all with this expression on your face

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RectangularLoneHyrax-size_restricted.gif

    So the sexual tension is still there lingering in the background….but now she feels like she’s investing herself to you. And that feeling of her spending several minutes with you, sharing intimate details about herself, letting you in on her inside world, will make her want a return in that investment (aka the D). Then after several minutes of that, fractionate back, and ramp up the sexual tension, by bring up sexual topics (sex positions, where does she like to be kissed, what’s the craziest thing you’ve ever done, what’s your type of guy?). Now at THIS high point (where she’s giving you the DDB look https://www.girlschase.com/media/2019/07/doggy-dinner-bowl-look-1.jpg

    , where’s she’s felt like she’s earned you via investment, and the fact that she’s horny, (not just via the way you’ve been physically escalating on her, but also your words, demonstrating knowledge in all things sex (you know what girls like and know how to give it to them)), is when you pull her home via plausible deniability.

    As Sentient just wrote: “Game > dancing”

    “At the end of the night her friends are pulling her out to get the Uber home (I get the impression they would not let her leave alone)”

    No. They would leave her alone….(girl I pulled on Friday, was sitting with me on a couch, when her friend noticed her, and came over. They didn’t exchange words. but I saw her friend give her the eyes subcommunicating, “are you ok with this guy”? and my girl, just slowly nodded her head. Giving her the ok, that she’s gonna stay with me). If she asked them to (or she’d invite you to come along with her). Return on investment.

  36. Lead/follow dancing is an element of game, despite what deniers say. However, dancing is not sufficient by itself. You can use dancing to build attraction and you can use dancing to build comfort and build tension and to ping girls’ emotions. Dancing is superior over PUA game because it takes a shotgun approach instead of a rifle approach like PUA game. Dancing will only give you “liminal space isolation” for the duration of the dance. You have to make a move to get a girl to isolate with you off the dance floor–maybe switch to a food venue or something. Dancing might help you deal with cockblockers to some extent, but you probably will need to do some convo with potential cockblockers in a girl’s group, although simply dancing with them (or even offering and they decline because they don’t wanna take your attention away from their friend) might prevent cockblocking.

  37. @Sentient – you going to do anything with the phone number? Or not worth it as too close to home etc?

    @Palma – I think you’ve got the general idea re text game. Only thing I’d say with that plan is that I wouldn’t mess her around too much with who you are. Joke around once maybe and dodge the direct question but it smacks of overgaming if you do it more than that. But that’s kind of a judgment call. Also be prepared for her to just blank you/not reply/block you at any point because you’re not there spiking her emotions in person and she’s “forgotten” what she felt like with you.

    @TantumErgo etc – my understanding of the martial arts thing is that the key distinction is arts that routinely train with live sparring (judo, boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, some forms of karate but not all) and arts that do not routinely train live sparring (other forms of karate, aikido, most kung fu styles, Wing Chun, etc). Unsurprisingly, the arts that train students in “live” sparring produce students who are good at fighting because they actually fight as part of their training – unlike the arts which primarily focus on drills, and kata forms or co-operative training etc. That’s not universal of course – if you come across a (rare) aikido or Wing Chun guy who trained in a realistic manner with live sparring, they could really fuck you up. But in general if you want to learn fighting skills, you have to go to an art where you actually fight as part of your training.

    That’s the most important factor by far – on top of that, there are obviously nuances and tactical advantages and disadvantages for each art – but those are far less important than becoming good at whatever art you do.

    PS – for god’s sake avoid Krav Maga – unless you’re literally going to Israel to learn from IDF commandos, it’s self-defense LARPing 99% of the time.

    1. @ Culum Struan

      And you have this – in a nutshell. 🙂

      “@TantumErgo etc – my understanding of the martial arts thing is that the key distinction is arts that routinely train with live sparring (judo, boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, some forms of karate but not all) and arts that do not routinely train live sparring (other forms of karate, aikido, most kung fu styles, Wing Chun, etc). Unsurprisingly, the arts that train students in “live” sparring produce students who are good at fighting because they actually fight as part of their training – unlike the arts which primarily focus on drills, and kata forms or co-operative training etc. That’s not universal of course – if you come across a (rare) aikido or Wing Chun guy who trained in a realistic manner with live sparring, they could really fuck you up. But in general if you want to learn fighting skills, you have to go to an art where you actually fight as part of your training.

      Exactly. The traditional Japanese and Okinawan approach has ALWAYS been to learn and train to fight, and this has been my experience, because, right from the start, I trained in this approach. Curiously, I have just parted company with a Karate club, after training there for five years, where the instructor took ‘issue’ with my approach to partner-work – ie as a training method for FIGHTING and not ‘dancing’ 😉

      Your point about coming across an Akaido or Wing Chun guy who has trained in a realistic manner is well-made. As one of my first Karate instructors, a hoary old Dundonian wisely said to me: ‘Play the moves, not the man.’

      “That’s the most important factor by far – on top of that, there are obviously nuances and tactical advantages and disadvantages for each art – but those are far less important than becoming good at whatever art you do.”

      Precisely. And with a view to actually being able to use what you have learned if, in extreme circumstances, either your life or the lives of your loved ones depended on it.

      “PS – for god’s sake avoid Krav Maga – unless you’re literally going to Israel to learn from IDF commandos, it’s self-defense LARPing 99% of the time.”

      I agree, to which I would add, also avoid Sistema – unless you are going be taught by Russian Special Forces operatives. 🙂

      TantumErgo

  38. Palma/Culum

    We will see. We texted back and forth a little. Perfectly deniable. Comm channel open. HABD always says make a prediction – Will let sit and expect she opens some time when she has a window.

  39. Thanks for the feedback guys, I’m definitely still working on getting better here and have a lot more to learn.

  40. Hahaha, that’s a good video – for some reason he’s blurred out Tyler’s face but not anyone else’s?

    And how did Tyler know he was filiming? He asked almost immediately if he was filming..

  41. He knew Cassonava was a pua and he threw Cassanova out of a Summit session prior, and he himself was out shooting infields.

  42. TantumErgo

    …been away floating in the Atlantic for a few days ( with stingrays no less ).

    ” Blaximus: I take on board that you have boxed and practiced one of the Chinese in-fighting styles of Martial Arts (Wing Chun?)”

    I boxed for 30 years, give or take, 10 as an amateur. I studied Wushu way back ( 70’s-early 80’s ) because when I grew up, before guns, there was an awful lot of fighting taking place. Studied off and on for about 5 years, but boxing won out as it took up most of my time.

    I became interested in Martial Arts because of Bruce Lee ( …don’t laugh, it’s true ) . I read Tao of Jeet Kune Do and I was hooked. There weren’t any Wing Chun instructors near me, the nearest was in NYC and I was 14-15 years old at the time with no license or car or inclination to trek into the city daily. Some guys in my neighborhood joined a ” gym “, so I followed them.

    At first I required 2 things from Martial Arts – 1) I needed to know how to fall without injuring myself, and 2) I needed to know how to use leverage when anyone got close enough to grab me. Boxing meant that dudes that knew I boxed snuck up on me a lot and grabbed me. Reading Tao made me want to combine boxing and Arts as boxing isn’t always 100% practical in the street with guys that fight often and know a few tricks, lol. Plus I had a mini arsenal of Tonfas, nunchucks, staffs and broadswords that I wanted to learn how to use.

    Ime, most street fights take place at 12 inches, so I learned more close in-fighting techniques in Arts and Boxing. As Palma eluded to, an idiot running towards me is just building momentum that will be harshly used against him. Being 6ft, 235-40 didn’t mean shit. You’d be surprised how many guys tried to ” test ” you. Untrained guys don’t realize that you’ve already figured out their reach, whether they are standing balanced or not, and if they even bother to protect their face/head, ribs and guts. The running guy? You step 2 feet to the right/left and punch him in the back of the head ( not too hard ).

    But fighting is the best way to learn to fight, and to stay sharp. I’m 57 very soon, and the 250 lb. bag has been replaced by a 100 lb. bag that I play with once or twice a week. Last time I weighed in, came in at 187 and I have a very dodgey rotator cuff these days. Last time I was in a ring was about 3-4 years ago. I thought I still had speed, but a lightweight youngster destroyed that notion.

    But…

    I’m still the fastest 57 year old around, lmao. Dudes between 40-60 years old better not fuck with me.

    Young guys, man, they NEED to learn to fight. Not to be a bad ass, but to push themselves to see what they are capable of – for themselves. My nephews are all into the MMA-jitsu thang. My 17 year old nephew jumped on me as I was walking across my backyard and he jumped up and wrapped his legs around my waist, twisted my skull around and simulated punching me in the face after I hit the grass. Like muscular spider monkeys or something.

    Today I only want to fight traffic and for my right to party ( Beasties reference ). One good thing about having lots of grey hair is that random fellows don’t seem all that interested anymore, which is just fine by me.

  43. “Plus I had a mini arsenal of Tonfas, nunchucks, staffs and broadswords that I wanted to learn how to use.”

    Lol, some of us never grow up. I still like that shit. When Dirty Harry is on, I pull out my .357 when the scene comes on, “Do ya feel lucky, Punk? Do ya?”

    When Bruce Lee is on, I pull out the nunchuks. Sometimes the balisong knives, too.

    And when Ivanhoe or The Vikings are on, the broadsword comes out.

    When Robin Hood comes on, I pull out the longbow.

    When The Wind and the Lion comes on, or Lawrence of Arabia, I pull out the old arab dagger and the old arab rifles.

    And I’ve got an old flintlock pistol for War of Independence movies.

    I’ve got a riot gun for cop shows where SWAT is involved.

    I’m still going on 14. And loving it.

    I’m getting ready to do some national parks that I haven’t seen before. Lots of pics in scenic places.

  44. Palma

    Vanilla Man Babies… Arent they playing Glastonbury?

    Lolz. What was the butter bit about?

  45. Having A Bad Day And Sentient and all the others who advised me on my predicament with online dating a woman who is going to be my kids’ teacher in the new school year – thank you.

    As you all said, I was overreacting and freaking out. Once I made my excuses and vaguely promised to meet next week, she faded away and unmatched me herself a few days later.

    Don’t think I have anything to worry about. Even if I meet her at school after my kids join, I’ll just pretend nothing happened.

    That said, this has triggered some soul searching in me. The thrust of many comments is to do what I want to do and own the consequences and not to hide my married status – that my attitude comes across as a guilty cheater (even if I don’t consciously feel guilt as I have done the Tinder-while-travelling thing quite a bit over the years).

    I think that feeling of guilt and lack of owning it/acceptance is at the core of a number of issues I’ve been having. This freaking out and anxiety over random woman maybe recognising me is one example but not the only one – I’d never put all of these together till now:

    -On a rational level I practice safe sex and while I know nothing is certain in sexual matters, I know that the chances of catching anything when using condoms are tiny in this country. But I usually wake up in a panic before dawn for a couple of nights after sleeping with a new girl worrying about getting an STD and feeling guilty.

    -I have a different account on my laptop and a separate phone I use on work trips. This is probably sensible security, but I almost have OCD like tendencies in how often I check that I have switched back to my normal account when I’m at home to avoid my wife accidentally looking at it, however small the chances. The precaution is okay, but waking up in the middle of the night to go to the study and check I’ve switched accounts – when my wife has no reason to go there and open my bag and look in my laptop – is not so much.

    -Bad case of premature ejaculation. Like really bad (we’re talking under 5 seconds here). Doesn’t matter how hot or not the girl is, or how recently I’ve had sex – if I’m going for round 2 with a girl, it may be a bit longer (like 30 seconds). But it never happens with my wife – no PE there (there are other issues with my wife). Pretty much every other girl though. Almost as if my subconscious is feeling “guilty” and wants to “get it over with” as quickly as possible before I get “caught”. And then of course during sex I get nervous about the PE so I can’t relax and enjoy myself, so then I’m worried about everything ending in 20 seconds, and so on.

    -Also anxiety about whether I’ll be able to get it up if I go for a second time with a girl..throwing girls out of my room when I could easily let them stay – even the ones who are not boring to talk to..stuff like that.

    -Sometimes I see extremely aggressive online dating profiles from girls. You know “all men are horrible..prove me wrong..fuck off if you only want sex..I will report you to police for [blah]..don’t you dare message me if you don’t meet my criteria..INSTANT BLOCK..I don’t care what you think of my attitude..” – that sort of thing. Of course I don’t find them attractive and I don’t message them no matter how hot they are (they are usually not hot). But what is interesting is that if I look carefully within myself, there’s a real spark of fear..of nervousness..of what might happen if I met one of them and she flipped out – and what the consequences would be if my wife found out. It’s difficult to even put it into words – I’m trying now but it’s really just a feeling – kind of fear/nervousness when faced with that kind of aggression. Even in person, even when talking to a girl, there’s that feeling in the back of my mind about what happens if she MeToos me or something..how will my life be screwed up. Tension. Same when talking (or even thinking of going up and talking to, not even doing it) an attractive girl which means I tend to stick with “5”s and “6s” who are objectively lower value than me.

    -I use a fake name when I meet girls while travelling (and pretend to be single) and while that is probably good security, it sometimes feels like I am two guys. But really..I want to be just one, encompassing both those sides of my personality. It’s not even about sleeping with lots of girls – I want to be able to do and say all the same things I do on dates even when I’m home on Dad Mode. I remember an online date quite a long time ago which went really well (genuine connection with the girl – if I hadn’t been married she would have been girlfriend material) and at one point when I was taking her from one bar to the next, she giggled and looked at me and said something like “Whatever happens..nothing bothers you” with this kind of wondering look in her eyes. I can’t even remember what triggered her comment..but that feeling – being that Man in control – that’s what I want all the time.

    Fear. Fear of what? Of being caught out of being discovered. Of consequences.

    I don’t even know how to fix this, but I’m beginning to think it’s really holding me back. I’m only pulling this out of my subconscious and looking at it closely now.

    I’ve fixed a lot of the immediate problems with my marriage and things are a million miles better than they were a couple of years ago (to the point where my wife initiates sex a lot now and rearranges the kids playdates to give us time to do it), but it feels like I can’t develop myself to my potential without addressing these issues – and they have to do with me, not my wife. I have to make myself into a better man who feels whole and at peace with himself.

  46. Also, just so that it is not all “angsty” stuff from me: wife aside, I’m slowly starting to get a grip on my son’s issues. He still has them, but much better when I’m around to the point my wife said something last week along the lines of “I know I’m a feminist and all that, but I have to say [son] really needs his father..he is so much better when you are at home and not travelling”.

    And she frequently now calls me – phone or in person – to discipline him when he’s starting to get out of control. It would have been unthinkable for her to do that until about a year ago.

    Particular gratitude to IRL and Sentient for making it clear that my son is my responsibility – there’s a kind of feeling where I take responsibility and keep up the pressure which is difficult to articulate, which I need to do. There’s a long way to go yet and I don’t have as good a “feel” for the process as I do with my wife, but there’s progress and I’m seeing the first hints of light in the darkness.

    I took him swimming yesterday and encouraged to swim all the way to the deep end, and then I taught him to go off the diving board for the first time and got him from nervous to enjoying it. After the swim, as we were leaving he was actually polite and charming to some old lady there with her grandchildren who said hello to him, when his normal MO is to be rude and ignore polite conversation. I made sure to praise him for that.

    And as we walked home, he told me “Dad, thanks for taking me swimming and teaching me to dive..I loved it and it felt so good when I listened to what you said and got it right after I first got it wrong”.

    And that felt great. Really good parenting day.

  47. @TheMarquis

    Having A Bad Day And Sentient and all the others who advised me on my predicament with online dating a woman who is going to be my kids’ teacher in the new school year – thank you.

    As you all said, I was overreacting and freaking out. Once I made my excuses and vaguely promised to meet next week, she faded away and unmatched me herself a few days later.

    Don’t think I have anything to worry about. Even if I meet her at school after my kids join, I’ll just pretend nothing happened.

    i’ll just point this out… nothing actually did happen…lol

    your plan to ‘pretend’ is all just your ‘guilt’ playing around in the background (subconscious or not…)

    That said, this has triggered some soul searching in me.

    good…

    The thrust of many comments is to do what I want to do and own the consequences and not to hide my married status –

    NEVER deny who you are…

    that my attitude comes across as a guilty cheater (even if I don’t consciously feel guilt as I have done the Tinder-while-travelling thing quite a bit over the years).

    I think that feeling of guilt and lack of owning it/acceptance is at the core of a number of issues I’ve been having.

    yes…yes it is…

    basically you are playing at being AF stud… without the frame to make it congruent… this is basically the whole issue that Blaximus points out (correctly btw…) that PUAs are not doing themselves any favors by just focusing on pussy…lol… see Mystery for how that generally turns out…

    This freaking out and anxiety over random woman maybe recognising me is one example but not the only one – I’d never put all of these together till now:

    -On a rational level I practice safe sex and while I know nothing is certain in sexual matters, I know that the chances of catching anything when using condoms are tiny in this country. But I usually wake up in a panic before dawn for a couple of nights after sleeping with a new girl worrying about getting an STD and feeling guilty.

    feeling guilty…

    -I have a different account on my laptop and a separate phone I use on work trips. This is probably sensible security, but I almost have OCD like tendencies in how often I check that I have switched back to my normal account when I’m at home to avoid my wife accidentally looking at it, however small the chances. The precaution is okay, but waking up in the middle of the night to go to the study and check I’ve switched accounts – when my wife has no reason to go there and open my bag and look in my laptop – is not so much.

    what’s the worst ‘consequence’ that would result from her finding out?… serious question… bc THAT is something you need to plan for… and be willing to own… in other words, you need to be in your own frame…

    -Bad case of premature ejaculation. Like really bad (we’re talking under 5 seconds here). Doesn’t matter how hot or not the girl is, or how recently I’ve had sex – if I’m going for round 2 with a girl, it may be a bit longer (like 30 seconds). But it never happens with my wife – no PE there (there are other issues with my wife). Pretty much every other girl though. Almost as if my subconscious is feeling “guilty” and wants to “get it over with” as quickly as possible before I get “caught”. And then of course during sex I get nervous about the PE so I can’t relax and enjoy myself, so then I’m worried about everything ending in 20 seconds, and so on.

    -Also anxiety about whether I’ll be able to get it up if I go for a second time with a girl..throwing girls out of my room when I could easily let them stay – even the ones who are not boring to talk to..stuff like that.

    just the result of not being in your own frame… you are basically a child with dynamite… see @Rollo’s OP on that for better understanding… you do however have the necessary knowledge to fix that…

    -Sometimes I see extremely aggressive online dating profiles from girls. You know “all men are horrible..prove me wrong..fuck off if you only want sex..I will report you to police for [blah]..don’t you dare message me if you don’t meet my criteria..INSTANT BLOCK..I don’t care what you think of my attitude..” – that sort of thing. Of course I don’t find them attractive and I don’t message them no matter how hot they are (they are usually not hot). But what is interesting is that if I look carefully within myself, there’s a real spark of fear..of nervousness..of what might happen if I met one of them and she flipped out – and what the consequences would be if my wife found out. It’s difficult to even put it into words – I’m trying now but it’s really just a feeling – kind of fear/nervousness when faced with that kind of aggression. Even in person, even when talking to a girl, there’s that feeling in the back of my mind about what happens if she MeToos me or something..how will my life be screwed up. Tension. Same when talking (or even thinking of going up and talking to, not even doing it) an attractive girl which means I tend to stick with “5”s and “6s” who are objectively lower value than me.

    girls are girls…lol… you are ALWAYS going to be equal or higher SMV… that’s how girls work…lol… and just bc you are ‘higher’ SMV doesn’t mean that hb5 isn’t going to #metoo you… in fact it’s more likely that a lower SMV girl will do that sh*t… for the attention/drama…lol

    -I use a fake name when I meet girls while travelling (and pretend to be single) and while that is probably good security,

    it’s NOT…lol…

    which is more likely to have a bad result for you… a girl gets pissed off that you lied to her about being married (if/when she finds out) and causes problems (calls your wife/tries to get you fired/etc)… or a girl who knew going in that you were married…and chose to play anyway…?

    you are trying to use a ‘structural method’ (pretending you are single/conforming to the BP/FI expectations of ‘sleeping around’…) to fix an ‘interpersonal issue’ (you not owning your frame but trying to be RP)… you know… like a crutch…lol

    it sometimes feels like I am two guys.

    you are…lol…

    But really..I want to be just one, encompassing both those sides of my personality.

    that’s the goal for all men…lol… but it’s really only one side… the side that owns the actual consequences of your actions… = when you are living in your own frame…off the plantation (= RP)… and the FI keeps pushing you to NOT do that…

    It’s not even about sleeping with lots of girls – I want to be able to do and say all the same things I do on dates even when I’m home on Dad Mode.

    = living in your own frame…

    I remember an online date quite a long time ago which went really well (genuine connection with the girl – if I hadn’t been married

    but you WERE married…lol

    she would have been girlfriend material)

    she could have been gf material anyway…lol… if she had known you were married upfront…

    and at one point when I was taking her from one bar to the next, she giggled and looked at me and said something like “Whatever happens..nothing bothers you” with this kind of wondering look in her eyes. I can’t even remember what triggered her comment..but that feeling – being that Man in control – that’s what I want all the time.

    = living in your own frame… do you sense the theme in play?…lol

    Fear. Fear of what? Of being caught out of being discovered. Of consequences.

    consequences are going to happen anyway… whether you own them or not (before they happen…) determines your congruence… and whose frame you are living in…

    right now, you are living in your wife’s frame when you are on the road… and probably in your wife’s frame when you are home too… although you have moved the needle towards AF at home…

    I don’t even know how to fix this,

    yes, you do…lol

    but I’m beginning to think it’s really holding me back.

    yes…yes it is…

    I’m only pulling this out of my subconscious and looking at it closely now.

    better late than never…

    I’ve fixed a lot of the immediate problems with my marriage and things are a million miles better than they were a couple of years ago (to the point where my wife initiates sex a lot now and rearranges the kids playdates to give us time to do it), but it feels like I can’t develop myself to my potential without addressing these issues – and they have to do with me, not my wife.

    that is always true…

    I have to make myself into a better man who feels whole and at peace with himself.

    that’s the goal… living in your own frame…

    here’s a game plan…

    stop lying about being married… never take off your ring… just own that…
    never give a credible false name… either don’t bring it up and if she does, you need to ramp the attraction bc you are getting too beta/comfortable… just deflect with something funny and change the subject… hasn’t seemed to be a problem for @Sentient….
    make peace with whatever is going to happen when your wife finds out… plan for it… bc that’s the only way to live in your own frame… = own the consequences… and as you are going through THAT process, notice how you are going to try to blame anybody else to ‘make it ok’… that’s the FI pushing on you hard… really feel that hand on your shoulder… and then just work through it…

    this is not beyond you… it’s not easy though… and props for getting this far!!!…

    and PROPS!!! for your parenting… that was really great!…

    good luck!

  48. Marquis

    Very good insights. Sorry to hear about the PE stuff…

    +1 to all of HABD’s comments.

    This is all about the fear of the outcome.

    but it feels like I can’t develop myself to my potential without addressing these issues – and they have to do with me, not my wife. I have to make myself into a better man who feels whole and at peace with himself.

    Yup. Authenticity.

    Also realize that this here

    (there are other issues with my wife)

    Is also coming from fear…

    Great stuff with your kid… That is exactly what being a dad is all about… Pushing the development.

    and will always have to push… sometimes really hard. but eventually you get the payoff.

    I’ll have more “tactical” thoughts on the whole married/girls thing… check back

  49. I have one thing to add to HABD’s excellent analysis…even if you tell a girl that you’re married, she may still try to blame you later for messing around with her when you’re married, especially if your relationship causes her any problems…in which case, the go to play is simply to poke fun at her for this tactic (“whatever” with an amused grin should be perfect), which implies that she’s being silly and absurd…

  50. Following on my previous comment, an incorrect response would be to take her accusation seriously, as in:

    She: You were married and shouldn’t have tried to get in a relationship with me!

    You: What do you mean? You knew I was married.

    [at this point you have slipped into the girl’s frame…if you say, “whatever” and grin, you maintain your frame]

    …if she pushes some more, “you’re right, it doesn’t take two to tango” (Agree and Amplify) is the play, while maintaining your grin…you maintain your frame and she is chasing, which means that she has abandoned her frame

  51. She: You were married and shouldn’t have tried to get in a relationship with me!

    You: Yeah, I’ve done a lot of shit in life that I shouldn’t have done. Poor me…. sigh maybe I’ll just walk into traffic.

    or

    You: I didn’t get into a relationship with you. Ohhhh, I see what happened here, you caught feelings. You couldn’t control your emotions. Lol, it’s okay, I forgive you. ( I’ve actually used a similar line )

    or

    You: I’m gonna order some chow because I have a relationship with Uber Eats. You want something?

    It takes a certain kind of frame to be able to pull off ” whatever ” with a smirk. If that dismissal makes her go nuclear, what are you going to do/say then? Not everyone can just ” whatever ” shit away.

  52. Blax, if a girl goes nuclear over your dismissal of her bullshit, which you both know is bullshit, it’s a test of your frame. This isn’t rocket science. You hold frame. You can backturn and leave her immediate vicinity if that’s appropriate and take an interest in something or someone else in the room. If you’re isolated with the broad, you just depart.

    This sort of test can help alert you if you are too invested in the broad.

  53. Marquis

    Suggest you ditch online stuff and focus on cold approach SNLs.

    First it will greatly improve your game by going for SNL. Second it avoids a lot of the issues you face with the online stuff you are doing.

    No numbers, no phones… Often in this scenario no names as well. That’s comms securiry.

    I tried early on using a fake name, just a first name even. Doesn’t sit right.

    Generally as HABD says if you amp up the attraction the name thing may never even come up.

    I’ve discovered though even if they know your name and number and where you live, they know you are far off and they don’t reach out. It’s just a nice moment and then they are off to the next one.

    Also consider that a) you like the fear because it makes you feel alive

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Ddmf8VNDQ

    b) you want to get caught to force a break up or c) you want to get caught because you feel you need to be punished.

  54. Marquis

    Also if it’s not about the sex, why are you so concerned with getting validation from 5 and 6 girls?

    Guaranty your wife will be crushed if she finds you’ve bang3d girls lower than her… She can forgive you banging a 9… But a 5? She Will have problems with that.

    It reflects on her you know…

  55. Marquis, never admit anything! Deny everything! Tell the side fling you were separated,tell the wife she was infatuated and nothing happened. When you get a handle on the frame,then the honesty begins from that point forward without regret.

  56. ” You were married and shouldn’t have tried to get in a relationship with me! ”

    Hmmm… shit test? Maybe, but it’s the subject matter Lebowski. I don’t see this type of comment as a ” test “.

    Guess you’d have to have her standing in front of you to properly gauge what’s really going on under what circumstances, hence my ” whatever ” advisory. If you’re gonna smash a shit test, SMASH that motherfucker.

  57. @Marquis: interesting post. What HABD and Sentient wrote, basically.

    I’m still a bit in your field but I’m much better now. To put it into context, the first time I Kiss closed a woman I freaked out to the extent that I apparently got psychosomatic “herpes” on my lips (thanks again @SJF which put up with me and calming me a lot).

    But props to you because the way you are writing you are managing to bang new ones regularly (I’m interested on your tales of success there). Own it and make those issues with PE go away.

    I wasn’t going to write it but on seeing your post I kind of want to. I went out last night to something and foudn some guys I had met before, attached myself to their bit and I really thought it was going well with one particular girl, managed to “stick” with her until almost 5 am and the logistics lined up such that I had isolation just before taking her home, but I must have messed something up because although I felt some vibe going, at the very end she was really insisting I go catch the public transport instead of taking her to the door… Probably had room mates but still no vibe to Kiss close by then. Before there were always someone else from her social group present so I had to limit my kino a lot for plausible deniability, but we exchanged some laser eyes.

  58. @TheMarquis
    my son is my responsibility

    I’m reading Way of the Warrior Kid by Jocko Willink with my son now. Good framework and practical lessons at the same time. Reads well because it’s a story too.

    I think you and your boy will enjoy it. Especially if you put it into practice and both challenge yourselves.

    Good effort man.

  59. @TantumErgo – coincidentally, I just came across this (On the RooshV Forum of all places!) summary list of a very wide range of martial arts (pretty much everything you’ve heard of) and the pros/cons/comparisons of each one.

    This is an exceptional list, not just because it lists such a wide variety of martial arts and fighting styles, but also because the author has real expertise – genuine expert level in several arts, and has tried out or experimented with virtually all of them. He really knows what he’s talking about and I like how he’s not a fanboy or religious devotion partisan about any one art – he’s good at explaining the pros and cons of each one. Well worth reading for the perspective:

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-56561.html

  60. IAS

    Come on man…

    “I really thought it was going well with one particular girl, managed to “stick” with her until almost 5 am and the logistics lined up such that I had isolation just before taking her home, but I must have messed something up because although I felt some vibe going, at the very end she was really insisting I go catch the public transport instead of taking her to the door… ”

    Dudebro… You are backsliding. Where is the Game in this interactionn?

    Basics. Always basics first.

    I.e. DHV? IOI/IOD loop? Compliance tests? Intravenue isolation? Leading? Preselection from other girls/sets?

    Laser Eye is not equal to Game. It’s a tool. But that’s all.

    “Probably had room mates”

    Probably? What happened to logistics up front?

    “still no vibe to Kiss close by then. ”

    Really? How about that?

    Remember “when there is doubt there is no doubt”?

    Your social circle exploits have dulled your game…

    Mystery says “come back to me”…

    Proximity is not game. It’s just the camel’s nose. Sure camel’s nose before camel toes 🐫 but you still have to do your part.

  61. @Sentient:

    fair enough busting me on being lazy. The frustrating thing here is I’m not sure if I was missing A, or C, or both.

    Here is a more proper FR.

    Event is an open air location, very chill crowd, another country. I arrived around 23:00. I was prepared not to find anybody I knew and cold approach a group but I spot guys I met the day before. There were some targets in the group with these guys and some in adjacent sets.

    I get social with the guys and get Social Proof. Things go well for me as one of the targets is sitting next to another foreigner and I know a bit of the language of the other foreigner. I start speaking in his language to him, greeting him and the target girl goes also in the language “What about me?” and I say “You’re not actually [his nationality], you don’t count”.

    I befriend foreigner and ask him to teach me to a physical skill [think juggling, although it wasn’t]. The girl lends me her material for training. This acted as a DHV because even though I’m the apprentice the guy complied to my request, the target complied in letting me use her stuff, and I’m picking it up reasonably well. Other foreigner leaves relatively early. The target gets half of the material and we do it together. I made it somewhat intimate.
    Then I teach her a bit of some physical skill of my own but she is not so good at it so I just switch out of it. I talk to her about traveling as that is usually a good topic to DHV and raise attraction.

    I somewhat accidentally merge a 2-set of women into ours, and also interact with a shoeless girl which was “hovering near me” – I turn to her and lasered shoeless girl and she goes “Hi, where are you from?” I’m sitting close to the ground so I look at her feet, playfully tap her feet with my index finger and go “You have no shoes!”. This shows some more social proof and preselection.

    There was a bit of non-contact dancing which I didn’t handle optimally as target was a bit away but I didn’t figure out if I should go next to her (potential DLV) so I just went and grabbed one of the ones from the 2-set which was still sitting down and got her to join up the dancing zone.

    Eventually they are chilling and drinking beer, smoking (including pot). I’m offered (more than once through the night) and decline with a smile [I think Palma would think this is a potential issue].

    At a certain stage it seems the group is planning something but some of the girl goes “But we have someone who can’t speak [our language]with us” (I guessed some of them were planning on doing something which wouldn’t be so fun for me not knowing the language?) so I go nearer conspiratorially and go “Who? Who is the foreigner? We have to get rid of him!” and everyone laughs.

    Another guy merged himself into this set (and was received quite friendly) but he dropped out again for whatever reason.

    I learn there are some swings nearby so I make a big deal about this and I say “We have to go to the swings!”. By then we are down to me, 2 guys, target, another girl they know, and the 2-set I merged onto us. They don’t move right away but eventually (with help from the target) I manage to lead them all to the swings. I get there first and it is actually a giant swing which can fit three. I go in the middle, get the target on one side and then say “Come on, someone else!” one of the guys joins. Then I stop the swing and say “Next!”. The other girl, another guy. Same thing with me in the middle.
    Stop, “Next!” The 2 girls from the 2-set I merged in, but one of them really doesn’t want to, so I laser the target and I say “It’s your turn again”. So this time I’m swinging with one girl under each arm. Then I stop for them to get off (ahaha) and I swing by myself on the huge swing.
    Overall quite a good bit of DHV I’d say.

    It is raining a bit so sit down on a sheltered bit that is dry, putting some songs on target’s mobile, distribute some food etc. I sat down next, target on my left with one guy on my right.
    Dude on the right spills beer on my boot (99% sure it was accidental) but it is fine as it only get’s on the sole, and I use the spillage to put a bigger gap to the guy and get close to target. It was at this time that I lasered more and one of the times it was very clear we are lasering each other and she cracks a smile. If we were alone I think I might have gone for the K close there.

    There was a funny bit wher ethe girl thought she lost her joint and I go “It is in there, I saw you stash it” she finds it and is overjoyed and I go “You should have seen yourself just a while ago… You were sooo sad”.

    I get some info in terms of logistics trying not to be too obvious about and target is not living with any of the others (but as Sentient points out, I couldn’t suss out enough info).

    Eventually, and after another “laser session” and some talk target suggests it is time to go home. I actually thought it was girl code for “pull me” (and maybe it was).

    The 2-set I merged into us are the first to go. Then the 5 of us go to get some more drinks and I take a group picture. We walk a bit and I arrange for us to stay behind a little bit, and try to number close her by handing her my phone with her name on it, without anyone noticing, and I think she was about to but then goes “It is better Facebook instead” (ugh). I think it was after this, she goes “You get along with us quite well” and I note the use of us and counter it with “Yes, I noticed you like me quite a bit as well”.

    After walking a bit and waiting a bit, state is up as the group has been badly singing some songs, we get on public transport. The 2 guys drop out (they live together). I have to juggle a bit so that I can get out with the target instead of continuing with the other girl. It works and I think other girl actually kind of helped me in the end.

    Now we are finally alone and I try to pump up a bit the state calling back the bit where I was learning the skill. I tell her I’ll take her home, as my final public transport is not right now. She appears uncomfortable with the idea. Clearly I can’t lead as don’t know where she lives so she changes direction to come close to my stop. I again tell her it is too early for me to catch my transport so I will walk her to the door. She insists on saying goodbye. Arguably this could be a shit test, but like when I had the “I don’t like being touched” thing with my N=3 plate, there are some shit I don’t want to plow through [@HABD, I wonder if this is FI – but arguably there is something to be said about not being uncalibrated and just plowing through everything…].

    My intuition is I shouldn’t insist again. I just hug her bye (kind of long hug but not even cheek kiss). She says it was really cool meeting me.

    Anyway this is clearly a disappointing finish as I really like to sleep and if I’m up until 5:00 I rather get a bit more “action” than this.
    Overall I had good fun on the night and had a good display of social skills. If it wasn’t for the lack of sleep it would be mega positive. As it is, it is still a net positive as I did get some more experience.

  62. @IAS

    “I tell her I’ll take her home, as my final public transport is not right now. She appears uncomfortable with the idea.”

    Well. It’s your job to make her feel comfortable with the idea.

    “I again tell her it is too early for me to catch my transport so I will walk her to the door. She insists on saying goodbye.”

    You’ve got to create a better narrative than that, mate. I’d tell her, “I don’t want to just be sitting there at the subway/bus stop waiting for my train/bus to arrive. There’s like so many fucking homeless drunk dudes out at this hour haha. And I don’t want you to waste your time, by coming with me to keep me company. You actually look pretty tired to me haha, so you should go home and get some sleep. After I drop you off, my bus/train should be arriving by that time. So its not really a problem for me. Is that ok with you?”

    Now it looks as if I’m looking out for her best interests by walking her home. If I were to go to the subway right now, she’d feel bad for sending me there and dealing with homeless drunk guys. Especially when I’ve gotten “along quite well” with her. So the solution I’m proposing, sounds good to her hamster.

    “Clearly I can’t lead as don’t know where she lives so she changes direction to come close to my stop.”

    The trick to figuring out where she lives is to do something I learned from RSDMax a couple years ago. You go, “oh so where do you live by the way? then she tells you. Then you go, “oh no way. I live like 5-10 minutes away from there. We should split a cab”. Then hail down a cab before she objects. Just assume she will agree). Then tell her, “just tell him (the cab driver) your address” then once in the cab, (while building comfort/maintaining the sexual tension) come up with an excuse to stop by her place before going back to your place (my go-to: is the bathroom excuse. but as RSDJulien said in one of his videos in PIMP, you want to do so, while in the cab. as in planting the seed. Not waiting till you arrive at her front door, then abruptly going, “umm can I use your bathroom?” my bus is gonna be here in like 30 minutes. I’ll be quick”🤞😈

  63. IAS

    “Overall I had good fun on the night and had a good display of social skills. ”

    Is this what you wanted? Dancing Monkey level unlocked! 🐵 🔓

    Kidding but not kidding.

    Can’t break it down now, but there are some good spots I think you missed.

  64. Blax, there’s something wrong with your smeller if you can’t tell when a girl is feeding you a line of bullshit. And a man should never ever take bullshit seriously, no matter how great an actress a woman is.

  65. IAS

    the target girl goes also in the language “What about me?” and I say “You’re not actually [his nationality], you don’t count”.

    Good. Who’s frame is this in? (Why was she the target btw???)

    I befriend foreigner and ask him to teach me to a physical skill [think juggling, although it wasn’t]. The girl lends me her material for training. This acted as a DHV because even though I’m the apprentice the guy complied to my request, the target complied in letting me use her stuff, and I’m picking it up reasonably well. Other foreigner leaves relatively early. The target gets half of the material and we do it together. I made it somewhat intimate.

    Really not clear if this is a DHV tbh…

    top DHV’s (Preselection is the best, the rest are not in rank order) – which are ATTRACTION swittches:

    Preselection
    Leader of men
    Successful risk taker
    Protector of loved ones
    Willingness to emote

    Then I teach her a bit of some physical skill of my own but she is not so good at it so I just switch out of it.

    Again, cool you have some skills, but of itself not necessarily a DHV for building attraction…

    I somewhat accidentally merge a 2-set of women into ours, and also interact with a shoeless girl which was “hovering near me”

    Cool. But how hot are these girls? How do they rank compared to “the target’?

    This shows some more social proof and preselection.

    Yes but again, how does she stack up to the target? Preselection from 5’s if target is a 9 isn’t the same thing. and if shoeless girl was as hot as the target, why not really work on her then?

    There was a bit of non-contact dancing which I didn’t handle optimally as target was a bit away but I didn’t figure out if I should go next to her (potential DLV) so I just went and grabbed one of the ones from the 2-set which was still sitting down and got her to join up the dancing zone.

    And if other 2 were ugos… this was a DLV… If they weren’t, why didn’t you work on a jealousy plot line?

    Eventually they are chilling and drinking beer, smoking (including pot).

    Bigger issue here is you are passive, observer and not leading the interaction.

    some of the girl goes “But we have someone who can’t speak [our language]with us”

    Possible IOI, but not the target right? How hot was this girl to the target?

    I learn there are some swings nearby so I make a big deal about this and I say “We have to go to the swings!”. By then we are down to me, 2 guys, target, another girl they know, and the 2-set I merged onto us. They don’t move right away but eventually (with help from the target) I manage to lead them all to the swings. I get there first and it is actually a giant swing which can fit three. I go in the middle, get the target on one side and then say “Come on, someone else!” one of the guys joins. Then I stop the swing and say “Next!”. The other girl, another guy. Same thing with me in the middle.
    Stop, “Next!” The 2 girls from the 2-set I merged in, but one of them really doesn’t want to, so I laser the target and I say “It’s your turn again”. So this time I’m swinging with one girl under each arm. Then I stop for them to get off (ahaha) and I swing by myself on the huge swing.
    Overall quite a good bit of DHV I’d say.</>

    I’d say this is where you dropped the ball. Great to lead and start the group on the swings, but your job was to then use the swings to distract the rest while you broke off and isolated the target… You are not the social director of the group. You are there to attract and then isolate and then bang your girl… again if the other girls are all less attractive, this isn’t much of a DHV… If the girls where hotter than target and giving IOIs sure… but it doesn’t seem so from the outcome.

    It is raining a bit so sit down on a sheltered bit that is dry, putting some songs on target’s mobile, distribute some food etc.

    So this is dancing monkey territory. You are what the group DJ and caterer now? who’s frame is all this in? Yours?

    I use the spillage to put a bigger gap to the guy and get close to target.

    If you had been DHVing as you think, you should have been able to isolate her all along… Didn’t “bust a move”…

    It was at this time that I lasered more and one of the times it was very clear we are lasering each other and she cracks a smile. If we were alone I think I might have gone for the K close there.

    Remember this moment. You need to be isolating BEFORE it. 5-10 minutes on attraction stuff, then start compliance tests and look to isolate and lock in for comfort stuff… You will also get more sleep this way 😉

    I get some info in terms of logistics trying not to be too obvious about and target is not living with any of the others (but as Sentient points out, I couldn’t suss out enough info).

    Logistics up front… always… Not all at once, but all early on, certainly when you have gotten some IOIs…

    who you here with? 2. How do you know each other? 3. where do you live? 4. You have a roommate? 5. How did you get here? etc.

    sprinkle it in. with a little thought you can work these in pretty innocuously… Not all at once!

    Eventually, and after another “laser session” and some talk target suggests it is time to go home. I actually thought it was girl code for “pull me” (and maybe it was).

    Pull me or eject me… If the laser was mutual, what do you think she was thinking about you and what you were doing? This is where the compliance tests from earlier come in. Little bounces intravenue, isolation, etc. Baby steps. Chapters on it.. what did Mystery say? Game is won in comfort…

    Then the 5 of us go to get some more drinks and I take a group picture.

    Social director, DJ, caterer and now photography… You do weddings? 🙂

    We walk a bit and I arrange for us to stay behind a little bit,

    Following…

    try to number close her by handing her my phone with her name on it, without anyone noticing, and I think she was about to but then goes “It is better Facebook instead” (ugh).

    should be clear by now this wasn’t happening right? In any event… never ever do the work for her! Put her name in? No way… You should have at a minimum flatly rejected the FB. “Ha FB, what do I look 19? lol”…

    I have to juggle a bit so that I can get out with the target instead of continuing with the other girl.

    Be honest.. this felt cringey right? Look I get you need to be proximate and sometimes you need to plough… but you know enough about the interaction at this point, where you didn’t lead anything – between you and her, man to woman, with you as a sexual threat – to think this was going to work.

    J can post all kinds of gambits… there is a difference, you feel it, between giving her some plausible deniability and stalking… again I don’t see a lot of IOIs from her in this whole thing, maybe you didn’t mention them in your FR, but it reads like they met an interesting guy who had some fun with them and followed them along for a night…

    Now we are finally alone

    After four hours???? Four hours??? Remember this…

    would have been better to push her in the first hour max and if it didn’t hit, you had three other girls to go with…

    I tell her I’ll take her home, as my final public transport is not right now. She appears uncomfortable with the idea. Clearly I can’t lead as don’t know where she lives so she changes direction to come close to my stop. I again tell her it is too early for me to catch my transport so I will walk her to the door. She insists on saying goodbye. Arguably this could be a shit test, but like when I had the “I don’t like being touched” thing with my N=3 plate, there are some shit I don’t want to plow through [@HABD, I wonder if this is FI – but arguably there is something to be said about not being uncalibrated and just plowing through everything…].

    My intuition is I shouldn’t insist again. I just hug her bye (kind of long hug but not even cheek kiss). She says it was really cool meeting me.

    Yeah doesn’t read a shit test. Not seeing the IOIs, the compliance at all… You never led, never isolated etc… she may like you but you left a lot there in the grey areas… Not crossing the line, not making a move, not establishing a sexual dynamic.

    All good… On to the next one!

  66. Field Report

    Danced with maybe fifteen girls. I think I knew one girl. Got ten rejections. Met some cool, young husbands who were out of towners and chilled with them a bit. I asked one girl to dance who was out with her bf. (First I asked his permission and he Ok’d it.) Turns out that I’ve danced with this girl before. She says that she’s a dancer and I don’t think to ask where. She didn’t follow well, but she asked my name. A beauty, but too bad she couldn’t dance well. The husbands saw me dance with her and were slapping my back.

    Anyway, I didn’t order from my normal bartender, who’s a pretty redhead with a nice body. Instead, I ordered from the bartenders on either side of her. Of course she challenged me about it and I told her that I cheated on her, pretending to be sheepish. She was all big smiles and flirty grins. The bartender likes me because I tease her sometimes. I can’t really say that there’s anything sexual there–just some fondness.

  67. Asd

    😅

    I don’t get conned much by men or women. I can tell when a woman is attempting to ” feed me a line of bullshit “, but my thing is to see if I can get her to stop. It’s an art. A gift that comes through practice. Why do you think I like approaching strange women and having conversation? I’m not trying to bed them, but it’s practice breaking them down like when I was trying to fuck them. That never changes. That’s Game.

    If you’re only trying to fuck them, you’ll only know how to talk your way into pussy and be frustrated by the hard cases. Break them down and you can do whatever you want – but it’s a process.

    Her acting and bullshit😂😂 means positively nothing at all. It’s not about her or her frame.

  68. @J and @Sentient:
    thanks for the advice and breakdown. Very helpful to see things from outside. Indeed several things didn’t go well there.
    Main message is overall I was too passive instead of leading.

  69. @IAS – great stuff from @j and Sentient. I’ll only add two things:

    On the meta-stuff – reading that just felt like you weren’t proceeding with A Plan. You have all the knowledge you need, but you need to actually apply the structure and go through it without being distracted. If you’d been stopped at any point inthe night and asked – what is your plan to pull this girl (incorporating the usual Mystery ACS/M3 framework but specifically applied to yoursituation) and where in that plan you were at that precise moment, would you have been able to answer? I suspect not.

    It kind of reminds me a bit of when like 3 years ago (shit, where does the time go?) when I was refining my “online date pulling” skills, I sometimes got sidetracked and lost the pull with girls that I really liked and enjoyed spending time with. As HABD pointed out back then with the so-called Epiphany Girl (and Sentient when he first told me not to wait to pull if the vibe is there), it’s easy to get sidetracked if you’re enjoying the conversation and company, but you need to keep your eye on the goal and the plan..

    On the specifics – @j posted one gambit for that end-of-night situation. In your case, I agree with Sentient – you clearly didn’t have enough attraction (or you had it earlier and lost it, but works out to the same thing). If she wasn’t going to give you her number, she wasn’t going to fuck you. But for situations where you have enough attraction, @j’s gambit will work. A variation of that is something RSD Julien mentions in one of his products (which is what I try to use). Basically when you find out logistics early on (which you should, like Sentient says), you ask her something like “which part of town do you live in?” (NEVER “where do you live?” which comes across stalkery), and no matter what she says, you say something like “Oh yeah? I have a friend who lives near there..there’s an afterparty at his place tonight actually, I may swing by there later” – and then you’ve planted the seed, and given yourself a plausible reason to go with her (cab/public transport/whatever) at the end of the night.

    And when you get to her place, if you’re using the bathroom excuse to go inside, that’s fine, but it’s all about the execution. You have to be completely matter-of-fact and casual about it – can’t give off the vibe that’s it’s just an excuse. RSD Todd had a video somewhere where he talks about how he gets out of the cab with her and is completely absorbed in his phone as if he’s texting someone and casually says he’ll come up to use the bathroom as if she is obviously going to say yes and he starts walking – you have to maintain the frame. Which just takes practice – it’s the same kind of practice where years ago I’d be nervous going in for a kiss, or saying sexual things to girls, and now I make blatantly sexual comments about their ass when I meet them etc – because I have enough reference experiences to be totally congruent and maintain frame when I say her ass is sexy and handle the resulting shit test (or more often these days, blushing acceptance of the compliment, sometimes accompanied by a twirl). I wouldn’t have been able to pull that line off a few years ago.

    PS – Obviously all of the above is much much harder if you’ve over-escalated before getting to her place and got her too horny and turned on – because then you will massively trigger her ASD and make it 100x harder for yourself because she knows at some level you are only coming up for sex. To fix that you have to sexualize a bit, but not go too far (nothing beyond light kissing – no passionate makeouts) and maintain plausible deniability till full isolation. This is the standard (and probably the best) tactic. The other option is to go to the other extreme and completely fry her circuits emotionally to where she is so turned on and just wants your cock that her hindbrain totally overwhelms her logic and ASD – this can work as well, but the window for that kind of heat is narrow and it’s hard to time it for exactly the point when you reach her place -if a girl is in that state, it’s better to just take her to the bar restroom and do the deed there (which is my usual tactic). But don’t get caught in the middle zone where you have her turned on and horny but not enough to overcome her ASD – that is death (ask me how I know and just how many lays I lost to this..).

  70. @Palma – I mentioned something similar in an FR about a hotel bar once.

    Sentient told me to get up and go walk over to the cute girl’s side of the bar and go talk to her.

    Alternative suggestion: catch her eye and make some kind of jokey gesture about the obstacles and roll your eyes or something.

  71. ” human contact is finished ”

    Certainly looks that way.

    But the upside is, the guy who Will put down his phone/crack pipe and approach all of these chicks will seem novel ( or annoying, depending on the level of brain damage already caused by phone staring radiation) and different, as long as he can apply a modicum of Game.

  72. I walked past a house with a street level picture window a couple of days ago. The drapes were wide open. Inside a big screen TV was playing and there were a half dozen or so college age men sitting around. Not one of them was paying any attention to the TV, or each other. They were all fixated on their “phones.”

  73. Palma

    Good opportunity to go over to those girls…

    “So… You two. What’s wrong with your phones (arch eyebrows, point to masses on phones”

    And you’re off.

    Next move bounce them back to your space. Command and back turn lead after hooking.

  74. Kfg

    One of the most vexing things I’ve noticed is the volume of men addicted to ” smartphones “. Traditionally, women have always had an affinity for phones and ” talking ” endlessly, even when it was analog and hardline, but men didn’t spend much time on phones unless they were actually doing something.

    Out in the wild I can’t help but consistently notice how many men are hunched over staring into those little screens.

    I recently walked into an office at work containing 2 ” managers ” head down, fingering phones. I gently said ” thimble fuck this weekend ” and one replied ” yeah, I know… “. The other just nodded.

    If we intend to go back to the moon, we’re gonna need a bigger cell tower.

  75. “I don’t get conned much by men or women. I can tell when a woman is attempting to ” feed me a line of bullshit “, but my thing is to see if I can get her to stop.”

    Glad you clarified. Sure, you’re practicing your game skills. My “whatever” response works for me. Low effort and iron frame = smashing shit tests…once girls are used to that, they come around pretty quickly…but they will always, always test you…so never expect that girls will stop if your game is “good enough”…it doesn’t work that way…you might as well try to stop the tide from coming in (h/t to King Canute)…occasionally, if girls don’t know me well, they may try to push the shit test a second time…you have to be really sure in your own mind that they are feeding you a line and you just have to hold frame and poke fun at them in an affectionate way…

    I chose the place to eat today…Daughter Gamer provided the Valentine’s gift card and Mrs. Gamer paid the rest of the bill. Pan-fried chicken, mashed potatoes made from scratch, southern-style green beans, tossed salad, chicken gravy made from scratch, and extra-gooey homemade cinnamon rolls for dessert. Mmmm-mmmm good!

    (The baby cried when Momma stopped giving her bites of the cinnamon rolls. Really threw a fit! Haven’t seen that before. Good thing it was time to leave. Those rolls are addictive!)

  76. Thank you to Everyone who commented. It’s given me even more to think about.

    IRL – coincidentally, we just read the Jocko Willink book to my son and he enjoyed it. This particular book was actually my wife’s idea so she read most of it to him, and I read some. I think he’s still slightly young to fully understand it (7) but I need to incorporate references from it to his sporting activities. There are also a couple of sequels which I have been meaning to buy.

    IAS – Thank You. I find sleeping with new girls to be relatively easy. I don’t really go to nightclubs or bars. Maybe I should. And the girls I match with are not particularly hot. But if I match a girl on Tinder and she agrees to come to my hotel bar to meet me, I am probably going to be sleeping with her. I just kind of flirt I guess and make it clear I’m interested in her and I’m in town on business. Sometimes it doesn’t happen, but usually it does. The bottleneck is mainly how much time I am willing to spend on Tinder and texting, and in smaller cities, running out of girls to swipe. But it is not difficult to find average girls to sleep with. Cute or hot girls are another story. I do want to try and sleep with them. But you don’t see many online and when you do I never match with them.

    Sentient and Having A Bad Day.

    A lot to process.

    I certainly don’t want to get caught – that’s why I take such extreme precautions.

    On the Premature Ejactulation. It is strange but the girls I sleep with rarely seem to mind. I do get occasional comments like “That’s it?” or “Finished so quickly?”. But most of the women including the ones who make comments still orgasm themselves and usually really enjoy the experience and want to come back and see me before i leave town, even things like coming to my hotel late at night to sleep with me before I go for a redeye flight. If I think back on the last couple of years, I can only conclude that bizarre as it seems, the women’s enjoyment of the experience was not really correlated with how long I lasted or even if she orgasmed or not. The biggest indicator of how much she enjoyed herself and her willingness to put in effort to come and see me again on my terms seems to be just how much she was into me, and how much she liked me. The more attracted she was to me, the more the women enjoyed themselves, but not actually anything I did in bed.

    But even if the women don’t care. It’s not really enjoyable for me, first to be worried and stressing about it and then for such a pleasurable experience to be over so quickly. And even if a girl is into me, it’s one thing to PE during a hookup but I really can’t keep doing it again and again with a girl.

    I want to think a little more about the recommendations HABD made and Sentient made. It is certainly appealing to not hide anything about myself, especially important things like being married. I Don’t know if it will work though. Won’t she just stop talking to me online? Or even in person if she sees my ring, maybe she will just enjoy my company and say good bye? So do I just leave my ring on and walk around the night life area in whichever city I am in and talk to girls?

    As for making peace with whatever happens if my wife finds out? I honestly don’t know how to do that. Just the thought of it gives me this cold dread kind of feeling if I actually stop and contemplate the consequences instead of dismissing it as a casual thought. Losing my kids, losing my wife herself (and she’s a good wife), getting a reputation among friends and family as the man who blew up a marriage and damaged his kids. My wife sometimes tells me out of the blue, something like “You’re the only man I’ve ever trusted” and that always makes me feel really unpleasant and guilty.

    Besides what do I do if she actually finds out? I don’t mean plausible deniability situations where I can just deny it as Wahoo McDaniels says. But if her friends see me on Tinder or she finds my second phone and sees the messages on it (both are low probability – I keep that phone well hidden and I don’t do Tinder where I live, but they could happen) then there’s literally nothing I can say.

    Do I just say “Yes, I did it. Many times, with many women over many years”? I can’t even say it was a drunk one off or something. Do I say “Our sexual problems early on (NOTE: ten years ago before we were married although some of the legacy lingers, separate story I’ll post another time) drove me to sleep with other women just to make sure there was nothing wrong with me and I could still have sex and enjoy it, and the confidence I got from that meant our sex life has also improved”? This one is actually mostly true, and that was one of the main reasons for me cheating the first few times, along with feeling I’d settled down too early while still in my twenties and not experienced enough, but of course it still breaks the promises I made my wife and I kept sleeping with other women long after our sex problems were (mostly) in the rear view mirror.

    Do I need to be cool with blowing up my life to do this at all? Or is it better to stop sleeping with other girls completely?

    This is not really connected to keeping my ring on and not pretending to be single. I could do that and the worst that can happen is that some proportion of girls will not be interested in me, but I can try it and try to meet girls in person and sleep with them as Sentient says. That I get.

    But the idea of coming to terms with the consequences of cheating – what Having A Bad Day calls “the worst consequences of having her find out”- I just don’t understand. The worst consequence is blowing up my entire life. I mean, how does one learn to accept that? Is that the price of sleeping with other women?

    Years ago when I first started working on my marriage I read a bunch of “pickup” and “red pill” books. I remember reading Athol Kay’s books which were helpful. I read some stuff by “Blackdragon” which was also quite useful for online dating, but I remember reading some Blackdragon advice about turning your marriage or relationship into an “open” one.

    If I remember correctly, he says something about how it is much, much easier to just keep the relationship open from the beginning, but if you want to move from a monogamous relationship to an open one, it is likely to cause massive fireworks and drama and there’s a good chance of losing your wife/gf and seriously damaging the relationship.

    With that caution I think he says to basically sit your wife down and tell her something like “I need more sex and variety than I’m getting in this relationship..I’m not leaving you, but I am going to discreetly start seeing other women”. He says it is important not to ASK permission but just TELL her you are going to do this. He says it is certain that there will be a huge emotional blowup from her, but you need to hold frame through it, and IF she comes back to you in a few days, then she has implicitly accepted it and you can have a conversation about details and how you will always be discreet and use condoms etc.

    Is that the kind of thing you are all suggesting?

    Oh and the girls I’ve slept with have ranged from being quite a bit more attractive and younger than my wife to being older/less attractive than her. The average is probably on the “less attractive than her” side though, and my wife isn’t beautiful or anything but cute – maybe a 6 I guess?

  77. @TheMarquis:

    “My wife sometimes tells me out of the blue, something like “You’re the only man I’ve ever trusted” and that always makes me feel really unpleasant and guilty.”

    Oh she is good. She is feeling the dread and this is a shit test, and, as @HABD would say, you are really feeling that FI hand pressing hard on your shoulder…

  78. Thank you IAS.

    I should also add that my wife’s most serious boyfriend before me (not the last one before me, but the most serious before me), cheated on her and when she found out, she contacted the Other Woman (who didn’t know the guy had a girlfriend) and both of them arranged to meet him in a coffee shop at the same time and both enjoyed the shock on his face when he saw them together and both of them dumped him there.

    It’s been years since I heard the story, but if I remember correctly, he was very stupid in his cheating and took no precautions, the other woman only lived a few streets away from my wife etc.

    So that experience left its mark on her, and her telling me “You’re the only man I’ve trusted” is in the context of that (although she has not actually mentioned the ex for many years).

  79. @Blaximus

    “I don’t get conned much by men or women. I can tell when a woman is attempting to ” feed me a line of bullshit “, but my thing is to see if I can get her to stop. It’s an art. A gift that comes through practice. Why do you think I like approaching strange women and having conversation? I’m not trying to bed them, but it’s practice breaking them down like when I was trying to fuck them. That never changes. That’s Game.”

    Do you never get blind sided? Some people are very good, one tell I’ve found is to be wary of people that kiss your backside within 5 minutes of meeting. A smile that doesn’t match the eyes is another. What else do you look for?

    I’m intrigued to know how you stop a fibber, from fibbing (I’m assuming there’s more to it than saying “please don’t do that”)? I hate that feeling you get when you know you’re about to get into a disagreement with someone you know to be completely irrational (that would be most women) and know that there’s probably nothing you can do to at least get the other person to see your point.

  80. Marquis

    Lots of thoughts. I’ll get back to you in ( long ) detail a bit later, but the first thing I’d like to say is that stress over anything that a man is doing is unhealthy. You either need to figure out how to do what you want without stress and worry, or rethink what you want or are doing.

    Advice like Black Dragon’s is mostly only actionable for relationships from the very beginning and basically useless for a man midstream in a marriage or ltr. A majority of men could NEVER pull that kind of scenario off.

    Marriage is a different animal. Dudes that have no idea about that give Shitty advice, hence why the question marriage in the first place.

    Men should live life doing what they want to do 100%. You’ll be dead before you know what happened. But you need to understand your motivation and the mechanics of it all. If you’re truly concerned with how others will perceive you, that’s going to complicate things continually.

  81. @TheMarquis

    Not much time to respond properly, so I may come back with more details if other don’t cover them.

    IRL – coincidentally, we just read the Jocko Willink book to my son and he enjoyed it.

    “We”? Where’ the male space? This is a boys book.

    This particular book was actually my wife’s idea

    Why? What is she trying to solve? And why is she in the driver’s seat?

    so she read most of it to him, and I read some.

    You’re missing opportunities to take control over how your son is raised, build male only space, do what boys do.

    I think he’s still slightly young to fully understand it (7)

    No, he’s not. Mine is just a year older. But you can’t just read it. You use it as a trigger for discussions and challenges.

    but I need to incorporate references from it to his sporting activities.

    It’s not on/off (i.e. only when in a Big Culum City vs Small Town wink wink… I mean doing sports).

    You read a chapter together and you go and do it together. You can plan this stuff with him for the next day and just do most of it in his room. Then take him out on the weekend and do the other ones.

    My boy and I have been doing this (also before this book), even call it “men only” time in front of my wife lol (he tells her that too).

    There are also a couple of sequels which I have been meaning to buy.

    Slow down, you haven’t done much with the first one yet.

    On the Premature Ejactulation. It is strange but the girls I sleep with rarely seem to mind. I do get occasional comments like “That’s it?” or “Finished so quickly?”. But most of the women including the ones who make comments still orgasm themselves and usually really enjoy the experience and want to come back and see me before i leave town, even things like coming to my hotel late at night to sleep with me before I go for a redeye flight.

    Yeah they care less than you think. It’s the experience not humping that makes them feel alive.

    But apart from your sleazy guilt and MPoO issues, do you even sleep long enough each night?

    I read some stuff by “Blackdragon” which was also quite useful for online dating, but I remember reading some Blackdragon advice about turning your marriage or relationship into an “open” one.

    If I remember correctly, he says something about how it is much, much easier to just keep the relationship open from the beginning, but if you want to move from a monogamous relationship to an open one, it is likely to cause massive fireworks and drama and there’s a good chance of losing your wife/gf and seriously damaging the relationship.

    With that caution I think he says to basically sit your wife down and tell her something like “I need more sex and variety than I’m getting in this relationship..I’m not leaving you, but I am going to discreetly start seeing other women”. He says it is important not to ASK permission but just TELL her you are going to do this. He says it is certain that there will be a huge emotional blowup from her, but you need to hold frame through it, and IF she comes back to you in a few days, then she has implicitly accepted it and you can have a conversation about details and how you will always be discreet and use condoms etc.

    Is that the kind of thing you are all suggesting?

    Nah, this is where I disagree with BD. Women are creatures of emotions… and yet suddenly we get into a logical Talk? This is not a business situation. No talk will solve the underlying dynamic… which is constantly fluid. So there’s no “one off” action there.

    What works is your upper hand, frame and – wait for it – not being scared of walking away/losing her. Fix the stress issue first and ask yourself what YOU want (not BD or someone here).

    The worst consequence is blowing up my entire life.

    It doesn’t kill you. You’re a man, you can deal with it.

  82. @Blaximus,

    Just to add, I’m not talking in a relationship context specifically.

    It could be as simple as stopping someone who works for you from doing something daft.

    It would be nice to be able to persuade without the the use of authority, or such like, and have some willing think “you know what, that’s a good idea”, rather than annoyance, followed by grudging acceptance.

    Dog logic is definitely not the way.

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