Field Reports

lion-chasing-gazelle

For the past three years of The Rational Male there’s been a consistent presence in the comment threads of guys seeking advice for particular situations with regards to Game. Whether it’s fine tuning certain aspects of Game or a larger consensus of the guys participating in my comment threads it’s become obvious there’s a need for a dedicated page and comment thread to address these Field Reports.

So I’m instituting this page for exactly this. If there is some urgency to have members of The Rational Male community analyze your particular situation feel free to hit anyone up in the comments of my current post, but please refer them to your particular field report with a link to your comment here. I’m hoping this will alleviate the mass of posts for field report analysis and Game specific insights piled into the main blog post for any given week.

There will be some rules for this “forum” as such. I ask that you only keep your comments to addressing the field reports at hand and save your larger theoretical stuff for the main posts, or if relevant, keep the “bigger scope of things” posts to being as succinct as possible. There will be no moderation in this comment thread (spamming excepted), so realize it will be a very hot kitchen before you post. I will impose no restrictions on video links here, nor will I limit links to various, but pertinent articles.

Understand, this is an experiment for now. It’s likely this comment thread will exceed thousands of comments. I’ll be instituting new comment plug-ins for wordpress to deal with this in the future, but I may archive this page the the posts and refresh this page in the future as well. If this gets cumbersome I may simply institute a dedicated forum-style sub-site of The Rational Male to accommodate for Game specific questions.

So have at it, post your field reports and feel free to comment on the ones you have some particular insight for. Be forewarned that it’s likely things may get a bit salty at times and I expect a lot of back & forth with debate and disagreements, but that’s what this thread is for – to hash out Game particulars for your given situations.

 

15,699 comments on “Field Reports

  1. Chunky

    Good morning man!

    When I was younger, 20 and less, sure I got blindsided. That’s part of how I learned.

    Mostly everyone has a public face or persona they cultivate and put forth. It’s rare to meet strangers and get a true read on who that hard and what their motivations are. I listen to what people say, but I take everything with a giant boulder sized grain of salt. I need to keep them engaged to be able to read them and pull out the ” real ” then in bits and pieces. Everyone’s words will give hints and clues, even down to how they structure sentences.

    It’s like interrogating people without them getting a feeling of being interrogated. They think it’s solely my being interested, which it is to a point, but I’m reading clues. This goes s for everybody as I give no brownie points for looks, status or initial personality. None of that matters.of

    Most folks eventually show they’re hand and I do not judge them as good or bad when they do. It’s just them.

    Also I don’t need anything from others, so I’m not vulnerable. Lol, salesmen hate me.

    As far as helping others, sure I will help almost anyone, but I’m not looking for anything in return, not even acknowledgement or appreciation. To me, looking for something from others for assistance defeats the purpose of helping them in the first place.

    Ime, breaking women down isn’t negative for me or for them. I never fully trust any woman that is highly practiced at resisting being broken down, and they are few and far between.

    I believe breaking them makes you more attractive on a deeper level. It’s not a negative experience for them, quite the opposite.

    But in order to do this, you have to ” expose” yourself in varying degrees. This means you must be comfortable in your own skin and in who you are. That way you can’t get taken or hurt.

  2. Oh, re: coworkers.

    This is a tougher one as the work environment along with it’s myriad of rules and regulations make actionable reading of co-workers more difficult.

    Rarely will I resort to using ” authority ” ( because I don’t like it being used on me…). I demonstrate capability and if the coworker can’t recognize it, then they are in their own. Without being highly capable, why would anyone listen to my suggestions?

    Stopping a co-worker from fucking up is the same as anything else. You try to get them to reach your conclusion themselves. It’s not manipulation as much as it is leading them to see what they didn’t see before. They get the most benefit.

    But if it involves something serious and they force me to ” pull rank “, then so be it. It usually hardly ever goes that way though.

  3. Marquis

    ” I can only conclude that bizarre as it seems, the women’s enjoyment of the experience was not really correlated with how long I lasted or even if she orgasmed or not. The biggest indicator of how much she enjoyed herself and her willingness to put in effort to come and see me again on my terms seems to be just how much she was into me, and how much she liked me. The more attracted she was to me, the more the women enjoyed themselves, but not actually anything I did in bed.”

    Not bizarre at all. Do you Evo bio/psych bro?

    A) her body wants that Alpha seed…

    B) fuck her mind and her body will follow. Her biggest sex organ is between her ears.

    Culum pay attention! The whole frame of a SNL, especially cold approach, is in your favor. Run away emotions… So you don’t need that jackhammer all night stuff to leave an impression. Great sex not equal to what you see as porn.

    Now you recognize if you kept seeing the same girl and the emotion level comes down because “familiar”… Then you will see some problems cum up…

    But for SNL you should relax because you know from experience it’s just an ego thing on your end.

    “So do I just leave my ring on and walk around the night life area in whichever city I am in and talk to girls?”

    Whoa what a crazy notion??? Pick up is to cooking a meal yourself what tinder is to Uber eats.

    Soak up the authenticity of you just being you. Not some made up character. Sure it will be harder, but that will just hone yiur skills.

    “Losing my kids, losing my wife herself (and she’s a good wife), getting a reputation among friends and family as the man who blew up a marriage and damaged his kids. ”

    FI and scarcity taking hold. Look these things might happen, but through it all you still have agency and the ability to shape your outcome. You can survive. You can have a different story that is more fulfilling even. It’s the change that is scary cause you don’t see how it ends.

    “My wife sometimes tells me out of the blue, something like “You’re the only man I’ve ever trusted” ”

    It’s not what they say it’s what they do. Guaranty you tell her you banged 10 Tinderelllas the first thing she says is “I knew it I never trusted you!”…

    “Besides what do I do if she actually finds out?”

    Well one view is it really doesn’t have anything to do with her. It’s about you.

    “Do I need to be cool with blowing up my life to do this at all? Or is it better to stop sleeping with other girls completely?”

    Heh. This is your question to answer. You do know about “outcome independence” though, right?

    “I just don’t understand. The worst consequence is blowing up my entire life. I mean, how does one learn to accept that? Is that the price of sleeping with other women?”

    The worst consequence is she cuts off your dick and tortures you for hours and then you die… She livestreams it on FB to all your contacts and has your son watch you confess to your failures.

    If You are going to “worst case” scenario plan, don’t be a piker lolz.

    Now there is also a best case scenario as well 😏 How can one develop that scenario. Remember the whole “do you even Evo bio/psych bro?” Thing?

    As to BD, you should seek Krauser’s thoughts on him before investing too much time…

    “Is that the kind of thing you are all suggesting?”

    Not me.

    I suggest you work on you and become the guy all women want. Demonstrate never explicate.

    FWIW I think the sweet spot for a wife is the in between space. Where she can be convinced you are cheating (because she observes how women react to you) when SHE wants to feel that… AND she can be convinced you aren’t cheating because SHE has you (and won you) when she wants to feel that.

    Feeling equal to believing in Catonese…

    And yes this kind of “does he doesn’t he” is torture for dogs and we can’t grasp the fun in it.

    But!

    All together now “cats are NOT dogs!”

  4. @TheMarquis

    Sentient and Having A Bad Day.

    A lot to process.

    there certainly is…lol

    it might be better if you unpack a basic concept as it applies to your situ…

    as @Rollo constantly writes about… limiting men’s sexual strategy and maximizing girls’ sexual strategy (open hypergamy) are what the FI is all about… this concept defines your whole problem…

    it’s all about you having sexual needs and being shamed when you try to fill those needs… THAT is just the FI in play… and THAT is informing all of your issues – from the PE… to the guilt… to the ‘bad result’ expectations that you assume will play out if your wife finds out… (as opposed to “yes!… now i can move that college girl into the spare bedroom… to help with the kids!”…lol… but not really kidding…)

    AF stud status is all about owning your ‘sexual needs’ and acting to address those needs… without guilt (guilt = FI mechanism to gain compliance on lesser men…)

    I certainly don’t want to get caught – that’s why I take such extreme precautions.

    On the Premature Ejactulation. It is strange but the girls I sleep with rarely seem to mind. I do get occasional comments like “That’s it?” or “Finished so quickly?”. But most of the women including the ones who make comments still orgasm themselves and usually really enjoy the experience and want to come back and see me before i leave town, even things like coming to my hotel late at night to sleep with me before I go for a redeye flight. If I think back on the last couple of years, I can only conclude that bizarre as it seems, the women’s enjoyment of the experience was not really correlated with how long I lasted or even if she orgasmed or not. The biggest indicator of how much she enjoyed herself and her willingness to put in effort to come and see me again on my terms seems to be just how much she was into me, and how much she liked me. The more attracted she was to me, the more the women enjoyed themselves, but not actually anything I did in bed.

    AF genetic contribution is not about porn style sex acts…lol

    But even if the women don’t care. It’s not really enjoyable for me,

    then why do it?… serious question…

    first to be worried and stressing about it and then for such a pleasurable experience to be over so quickly. And even if a girl is into me, it’s one thing to PE during a hookup but I really can’t keep doing it again and again with a girl.

    I want to think a little more about the recommendations HABD made and Sentient made. It is certainly appealing to not hide anything about myself, especially important things like being married. I Don’t know if it will work though. Won’t she just stop talking to me online?

    ya, so?…lol… just do cold approach… or tinder some other girl… there are a lot of them out there…lol… and why would she stop if she already knows you’re married?…

    Or even in person if she sees my ring, maybe she will just enjoy my company and say good bye? So do I just leave my ring on and walk around the night life area in whichever city I am in and talk to girls?

    why wouldn’t you do this anyway?…

    As for making peace with whatever happens if my wife finds out? I honestly don’t know how to do that. Just the thought of it gives me this cold dread kind of feeling if I actually stop and contemplate the consequences instead of dismissing it as a casual thought.

    really feel that hand on your shoulder…

    Losing my kids, losing my wife herself (and she’s a good wife), getting a reputation among friends and family as the man who blew up a marriage and damaged his kids.

    why do you think this is your expected outcome?… serious question…

    My wife sometimes tells me out of the blue, something like “You’re the only man I’ve ever trusted” and that always makes me feel really unpleasant and guilty.

    girls try to form their reality by telling you sh*t that may or may not be true…lol… but this is you in her frame…

    Besides what do I do if she actually finds out? I don’t mean plausible deniability situations where I can just deny it as Wahoo McDaniels says. But if her friends see me on Tinder or she finds my second phone and sees the messages on it (both are low probability – I keep that phone well hidden and I don’t do Tinder where I live, but they could happen) then there’s literally nothing I can say.

    why wouldn’t you assume she would be excited about it and want a threesome?…lol… but serious question…

    Do I just say “Yes, I did it. Many times, with many women over many years”? I can’t even say it was a drunk one off or something. Do I say “Our sexual problems early on (NOTE: ten years ago before we were married although some of the legacy lingers, separate story I’ll post another time) drove me to sleep with other women just to make sure there was nothing wrong with me and I could still have sex and enjoy it, and the confidence I got from that meant our sex life has also improved”? This one is actually mostly true, and that was one of the main reasons for me cheating the first few times, along with feeling I’d settled down too early while still in my twenties and not experienced enough, but of course it still breaks the promises I made my wife and I kept sleeping with other women long after our sex problems were (mostly) in the rear view mirror.

    Do I need to be cool with blowing up my life to do this at all?

    why would your life blow up?… just bc you didn’t feel the need to rub her nose in you satisfying your sexual needs?…

    Or is it better to stop sleeping with other girls completely?

    if you don’t enjoy THAT, then you should stop… you don’t need to prove anything, just bc you can… you need to figure out what YOU get out of banging other girls… only THEN can you make an informed choice/decision… do you need the validation?…

    This is not really connected to keeping my ring on and not pretending to be single. I could do that and the worst that can happen is that some proportion of girls will not be interested in me, but I can try it and try to meet girls in person and sleep with them as Sentient says. That I get.

    ya, it’s pretty straightforward…lol… and with open hypergamy, it’s gettin’ easier…lol

    But the idea of coming to terms with the consequences of cheating – what Having A Bad Day calls “the worst consequences of having her find out”- I just don’t understand. The worst consequence is blowing up my entire life.

    the worst consequence is more like @Sentinet pointed out…lol… but i would put ‘not kill you’ after all that sh*t…lol

    I mean, how does one learn to accept that? Is that the price of sleeping with other women?

    aaand… we return to the main theme… WHY do you think there has to be a ‘price’ paid?…

    Years ago when I first started working on my marriage I read a bunch of “pickup” and “red pill” books. I remember reading Athol Kay’s books which were helpful. I read some stuff by “Blackdragon” which was also quite useful for online dating, but I remember reading some Blackdragon advice about turning your marriage or relationship into an “open” one.

    If I remember correctly, he says something about how it is much, much easier to just keep the relationship open from the beginning, but if you want to move from a monogamous relationship to an open one, it is likely to cause massive fireworks and drama and there’s a good chance of losing your wife/gf and seriously damaging the relationship.

    girls REALLY hate to be ‘downgraded’…lol… but not kidding…

    With that caution I think he says to basically sit your wife down and tell her something like “I need more sex and variety than I’m getting in this relationship..I’m not leaving you, but I am going to discreetly start seeing other women”. He says it is important not to ASK permission but just TELL her you are going to do this. He says it is certain that there will be a huge emotional blowup from her, but you need to hold frame through it, and IF she comes back to you in a few days, then she has implicitly accepted it and you can have a conversation about details and how you will always be discreet and use condoms etc.

    ‘negotiating desire’ NEVER works…lol… if it is going to ‘work’, it will be on your AF stud bonafides… and not some ‘talk’…lol

    Is that the kind of thing you are all suggesting?

    no… see above…

    Oh and the girls I’ve slept with have ranged from being quite a bit more attractive and younger than my wife to being older/less attractive than her. The average is probably on the “less attractive than her” side though, and my wife isn’t beautiful or anything but cute – maybe a 6 I guess?

    girls HATE to be downgraded… and banging some girl that is ‘less’ than she is, is just one way to downgrade her…

    I should also add that my wife’s most serious boyfriend before me (not the last one before me, but the most serious before me), cheated on her and when she found out, she contacted the Other Woman (who didn’t know the guy had a girlfriend) and both of them arranged to meet him in a coffee shop at the same time and both enjoyed the shock on his face when he saw them together and both of them dumped him there.

    and why might they have wanted to do that?… serious question… think about sharing a true AF stud… v dumping a confirmed beta with ‘less genetic potential’… and how would their hindbrains actually test THAT?… if that dude had the proper game, your wife would have ended up in a threesome with him and the other girl…lol… but not kidding…

    It’s been years since I heard the story, but if I remember correctly, he was very stupid in his cheating and took no precautions, the other woman only lived a few streets away from my wife etc.

    maybe he didn’t really give a sh*t…lol… you know, ZFG attitude…lol… also, maybe he actually did spin up that threesome… your wife isn’t going to tell you THAT one…lol

    So that experience left its mark on her, and her telling me “You’re the only man I’ve trusted” is in the context of that (although she has not actually mentioned the ex for many years).

    that story left more of a mark on YOU…lol…

    she had some purpose in telling you that story (rather than the one where she actually did the threesome…lol)… most likely as a way to push you into feeling guilty for wanting to bang other girls… and to be a faithful provider… did she also offer you a coupon for a discount on armor polish at the same time?…lol… it comes in ‘extra shiny’ you know…lol…

    overall, you are still doing fine… just need to get your frame/MPoO worked out and you’ll be able to consolidate all your other gains pretty easily…

    good luck!

  5. @HABD: Love your post, particularly the last bits about the threesome LOL. Brutal, funny, informative. Info that first makes me laugh and then makes me think. Ignobel prize style.

    @TheMarquis: obviously ready what HABD wrote, but here in short form again… Your wife presumably has N>1, presumably N>2 even. So even if it is true that you are the only man she ever trusted (see also @Sentient’s take one it), take note of the fact she fucked the ones she didn’t trust.
    If you consider that, maybe you can view that when she is saying that, is not a compliment to you, it is almost like a “neg”, and to some extent a shit test. I’m not sure a sly “Maybe you shouldn’t” with a wink is a good idea or that you are ready to handle the shit test that would come after that.

  6. Evening Blaximus,

    “Mostly everyone has a public face or persona they cultivate and put forth. It’s rare to meet strangers and get a true read on who that hard and what their motivations are. I listen to what people say, but I take everything with a giant boulder sized grain of salt. I need to keep them engaged to be able to read them and pull out the ” real ” then in bits and pieces. Everyone’s words will give hints and clues, even down to how they structure sentences.”

    It seems to me, that, that’s the nub of game (when you get past all the PUA lingo), working out what is motivating someone. Both yourself, HABD, Sentient, and West Indian Archie appear to have said the same thing in different ways.

    “Most folks eventually show they’re hand and I do not judge them as good or bad when they do. It’s just them.”

    Do you mean you try to avoid a good or evil judgement on a person? Do you not come to some sort of conclusion on an aspect of someone’s character?

    “Also I don’t need anything from others, so I’m not vulnerable. Lol, salesmen hate me.

    Ime, breaking women down isn’t negative for me or for them. I never fully trust any woman that is highly practiced at resisting being broken down, and they are few and far between.

    But in order to do this, you have to ” expose” yourself in varying degrees”

    Tell me about this “breaking down” thing that you do?

    “Rarely will I resort to using ” authority ” ( because I don’t like it being used on me…). I demonstrate capability and if the coworker can’t recognize it, then they are in their own. Without being highly capable, why would anyone listen to my suggestions?

    Stopping a co-worker from fucking up is the same as anything else. You try to get them to reach your conclusion themselves. It’s not manipulation as much as it is leading them to see what they didn’t see before. They get the most benefit.”

    This is something I often find absolutely exhausting (unless the person has come to you for help, which often means they’re out of ideas, see you as competent and are therefore willing to listen).

    The spiral I really hate getting into is when I make an innocuous observation, or ask a matter of fact question (to help resolve a problem), and have an accusation of “you are being rude” leveled at me. With the result that the conversation descends, into a pantomime loop of “Ï wasn’t being rude”, “oh yes you were!”, etc.

    To be fair this doesn’t really happen in my job, the chaps I work with are decent and competent.

    I find it’s more of a problem with some of family members (particularly in family disagreements. Mostly on my Mum’s side of the family, her included. It’s frustrating when conversations get shut down in order to manage other people’s emotions, rather than resolving a disagreement, which constantly festers as a result), or where I employ people to help care for family members, or cleaning, and such like (when I can’t because I’m working), and I find those I’ve employed doing thoughtless things in property that isn’t there own, like not washing hands after handling chicken for example, or just wanting them to conscientiously do the job they’ve been employed to do (finding people to do this takes a lot of time, particularly someone that can be trusted).

  7. Palmasailor

    Oh I’ve worked it out – the boys are on the other side of the bar..

    Now you’ve done it. You’ve gone and triggered my inner Walt Kowalski.

    (Walt is Never Safe For Work)

  8. “It’s not manipulation as much as it is leading them”

    Good leadership requires manipulation and sometimes doing a small evil to achieve a greater good.

    “The worst consequence is blowing up my entire life.”

    Nah, the worst consequence is not being the kind of man you want to be. The worst consequence is to fail to be good at being a man.

  9. Palmasailor
    This guy was the mark because he didn’t have pro active control of his own intimacy needs.

    Yeah, but it goes so much further, there’s so much more. I mean, he’s divorced, but living in the same house with his ex, and she has some kind of veto over his sex life anyway? Frame of Jello? No, weaker than that.

    This guy Hay was the mark because he’s a blue pill Average Frustrated Chump and very likely somewhere on the autism spectrum. So sure, he’s one thirsty dude, but still…c’mon, what a sucker.

    The line Frenchiie-girl used on him was “I couldn’t help notice how attractive you are.”, what girls talk like that even to some man on the street corner? Even in upscale Boston? Well, ok, hookers might, true…so he should have known she was some kind of “pro” or other. If he has even a milligram of common freaking sense.

    Which. He. Does. Not.

    How blue pill-retarded is Hay? Frenchie-girl lets him limp-wick her once, he doesn’t even squirt, then she tells him “I’m pregnant and its yours!” and he believes her even though Frenchie-girl is still living with the Pakistani man-in-a-dress who is the bio-father of her children and her full-deal male boyfriend. He believes her…<i

    Hay isn’t just socially retarded.

    If even only half of that article is true, it’s astounding. Because Harvard profs are the elite of the country. These are the really smart people who are so high above everyone else, due to their superior intellect, and we can tell how smart they really are by their actions…

    LOL!

    Pay attention to what they do! Not what they say!

  10. Palmasailor

    She’d asked if I was lonely.. That was the hindbrain thermal cut out.

    There ya go, what a “tell”. People project their own issues onto others all the time, but sometimes it’s not easy to see.

    The woman who is always bossing her kids and man around is the first woman to get all irate when someone else tries to boss her around. The man who is perpetually angry gets really worked up around another man who is…perpetually angry.

    Strong, independent woman who don’t need no man asks you “Are you lonely”?
    Lol!

    “No, but I can see you are! Here’s your shirt!”

  11. Just one to share in the “Disaster” Department. Met an HB8 at a party two weeks ago, ran standard game, kino and number closed. Next day I set up a drinks date and continued teasing—all good. The night before the meet up she texted to say she was working and could we move it to Wednesday. Ok.

    Wednesday comes, I show up, text to say I’ve arrived. I get a text to the effect: “OMG! I’m still working. I totally forgot sorry I will be there.”

    Huh? She set this up. Me: “You’re buying the first round.” I settle in with a drink knowing this is going to be interesting. She shows up and looks smoking hot but is very apologetic. I continue teasing her but we settle in for a drink and dinner. She’s very sexy, a great conversationalist and clearly a little older than she looks—32.

    I highly recommend the Questions Game for any of you newbs stuck on “What do I talk about?” It works and girls love it. But through this I learn: She was married young, she was recently engaged after a 4 month romance, currently has a bf who doesn’t know she’s out with me—“Better he doesn’t know…” I say and has a 10 year old son. Wow.

    I escalate and run kino. Suddenly she looks at her phone. Clearly her bf has contacted her. She excuses herself to make a phone call and leaves to go outside. When she returns 5 minutes later she looks at me and says: “He’s not feeling well, sorry I have to leave” and leaves.

    I was furious but shrugged it off to one of those “WTF?” kind of nights that was going well until it ran into a wall. I moved in for the k-close and she did the typical head turn but didn’t pull away and said bye. The second round of drinks came…and I drank them thinking…how the fuck did THAT just happen? I usually screen these girls better.

    It had been going well up to that point. She never texted any follow up and neither did I. I wrote it off as one of those “Didn’t see THAT coming…” It was all very very strange and sudden. Was it guilt? I don’t think I did anything wrong because before that she had agreed to a second round of drinks and was asking me the last time I had sex…

    It was weird. She was giving off all the major IOI’s up until “My BF is sick and I have to leave…” Anyway, having other plates ensured I shrugged it off and thought….never again with that one.

  12. Chunky

    Busy week full of rain and biblical flooding and shit.

    Okay, let’s see what we have here….

    Do you never get blind sided? Some people are very good, one tell I’ve found is to be wary of people that kiss your backside within 5 minutes of meeting. A smile that doesn’t match the eyes is another. What else do you look for?

    I believe a man has to be mostly immune to flattery and stuff like that. Admiration is different than flattery. Imo, flattery is empty and hollow. Kissing my ass will get hardly and real reaction from me, at least not the reaction the flatteror is expecting.

    Eyes are super important and will tell you 80-90% of what you’re looking for in the average random stranger. Sometimes, you will not be able to see anything in the eyes, like a shark almost. These are people you just skip. There’s something in there that isn’t normal, for lack of a better word. It’s surprising how many people will avoid meaningful eye contact, so the ” dead eyes people ” can easily maneuver through our midst without much detection, until they do something mean or foul to somebody else.

    Lots of people are not comfortable with direct eye contact, so you need to have it and manage to maintain it without making folks even more uncomfortable.

    Smiling is okay, but the opposite is also okay. Frowning is GREAT. Tensed lips are wonderful because it means nerves and feelings are being struck. WHy? that’s the question and the intrigue. Go away from the subject that evoked the reaction, and circle back to it from a different angle a little later. You’re NOT fucking with the other person’s head. You’re not playing with them. There’s something there and will they trust you enough to tell you what it is, or as most people do, give you hints and clues as to whether they want you to probe deeper, or if they’d really like it if you’d just stfu and change the subject. Both scenarios are usefully interesting.

    Let’s use one of the most tried and true tropes re: women and shit they say often : Men aren’t shit, men suck, men are cruel, men smell badly or whatever.

    What you don’t want to do right away is ask ” why do you say that ” or ” I disagree “.

    Is she shit testing, to use pua style lingo ( 99% of what i’m talking about has nothing at all to do with pua, even if the language is similar )? Is she hurt and angry? Is she being defensive? Her body language will hold clues, but her eyes will tell the story. She won’t look you in the eye? Defense mechanism. It’s cool – circle around and come back from a different angle.

    I’m intrigued to know how you stop a fibber, from fibbing (I’m assuming there’s more to it than saying “please don’t do that”)? I hate that feeling you get when you know you’re about to get into a disagreement with someone you know to be completely irrational (that would be most women) and know that there’s probably nothing you can do to at least get the other person to see your point.

    Lol. Initially I don’t expect anyone to ” see my point ” because what incentive do they have to do so? I don’t ask strangers to ” please ” do or don’t do anything. They can do or say whatever they like, and I want them to feel comfortable doing so. So she/he is obviously lying up a tsunami. Cool, go right ahead. Now I’m going to see if they can read what’s in my eyes, or if they are just a habitual liar that likes to bolster themselves in front of strangers because they believe that you don’t know them, so you can’t prove that what they are stating is bullshit. All of that is fine. The more they lie, the more they tell on themselves. None of this means they are a bad person,,,,mostly.

    Keep circling back. Different angle. Dismantle bullshit gently without anger or malice. You want what’s behind the lie. You want the lie to melt away. You won’t mention it again or let them know that you’ve ” caught ” them in a lie. It’s not important, nor is it material to who they are. People do it all the time – what you might want to understand is if they believe the lies they tell others. Most sane folks do not and will let it go eventually.

    One of my favorite plates back eons ago made it perfectly clear that she’s never ever sleep with me, she wasn’t going to let me use her, there was nothing I could say that would change her mind, and she didn’t find ” light skinned negroes ( she was black too…lol )” attractive at all.

    I’m immediately thinking, with all of that overkill, Thou dost protest too much . Somebody, probably somebody that looked like Wesley Snipes, fucked her over bigtime. Hurt her mentally, physically and probably financially. Lmao.

    So I have stories of being hurt too, so they just happen to come out later in the conversation ” randomly “. Not commiserating or empathizing, just talking. Maybe she’ll do the commiserating. If not, cool, circle back later.

    The non-pua aspect, is that I plated her after a couple of months. No hurry, and I needed to know her – always need to know who I’m dealing with. In her case, I never asked her for anything. Not even permission to undress her, lol. I never addressed the whole ” light skinned negroes ” thing – cause it had nothing to do with me really. I didn’t ” use ” her, but she did get tied up and bound and gagged often, but she got a hearty breakfast in the morning when she spent the night.

    What I learned: She considered herself a ride or die chick with a freaky side she wanted to share with one…dark skinned..lol… man, and she thought she had it with some dude that cold left her and probably took some of her shit on the way out.

    What I shared indirectly ( not directly saying anything of the sort ): I found her attractive and fun in bed and I appreciated it, but I wasn’t looking for wifey or GF, but I also wasn’t looking to hurt her…even though I handcuffed and spanked her and ignored the safe word from time to time.

    And my scrambled three cheese eggs were to die for.

    ‘ It seems to me, that, that’s the nub of game (when you get past all the PUA lingo), working out what is motivating someone. Both yourself, HABD, Sentient, and West Indian Archie appear to have said the same thing in different ways.

    Yup.

    Do our motivations mesh at some point? Probably.

    Men are different than women ( cats and dogs ) so let’s stick with females for now.

    Women pretty much all want the same version of different things. The ” difference : will depend on how they were raised, and how indoctrinated into what society tells them they are. You can break what society has instructed them to do/feel, and they will help you break them out of it. But they need decisiveness. You have to be clear in your motivations without explicitly stating them. They need to figure you out ( or believe that they’ve figured you out because they get rewarded ).

    “Most folks eventually show they’re hand and I do not judge them as good or bad when they do. It’s just them.”

    Do you mean you try to avoid a good or evil judgement on a person? Do you not come to some sort of conclusion on an aspect of someone’s character?”

    There is really no good or evil with individuals. There are people, and how they are. There are reasons why people are the way they are.

    ” Judgement ” is personal. My judgement of others holds no weight in a court of law ( unless jury duty ), and it usually doesn’t change the way a particular person conducts themselves.

    So I delineate between my judgement of someone and where they fit or don’t fit in my life, and the judgment and pronunciation of someone as ” evil “.

    I grew up with a guy nicknamed ” Buzzy “. Buzzy was shorthand for ” Buzzard “, because when younger the dude stank. Lol.
    Years after we’d all grown up and begun going our separate ways as young men, Buzzy, who’d moved away almost ten years prior, came back into town. I was overjoyed to see him, and we picked right up where we left off friendship wise. Buzzy was in town for a couple of weeks, then he left.

    A week after he left, some FBI dudes came around asking questions about Buzzy, and when he left and where he was going. He didn’t say.

    We asked the FBI guys why they were interested in him, and they declined to answer, but they were nice enough to tell us that we’d all be charged if we were found to be lying to them – which changed the dynamic of the conversation to us telling them to GTFOH.

    Tell me about this “breaking down” thing that you do?.

    That’s for a little later, as I gotta jet right now.

    ( I need a fucking secretary sometimes )

  13. Shit. I didn’t finish the story.

    We’d learbned from some of the local PD that Buzzy was acused of being some sort of hitman. Mostly Mob contracted.

    They say he killed 10 people.

    Now, I don’t consider Buzzy evil and I can’t pass that judgement on him. I love Buzzy, but he needed to go to prison and probably get the death penalty if what they said was true. Doen’t change the way I see him fully because people do fucked up shit, and Buzzy chose to become one of the fucked up among us.

    No evil, just men/women.

    Now, whwn lots of people get together and decide to do fucked up shit, that’s ” evil “. Evil, like strength, works in numbers.

    Nobody gives a shit about a grasshopper. Everybody gives a shit about 10 million of them descending on their city/town.

  14. Chunky

    Part 2.

    Breaking women down. It’s different than dealing with men. Only the weakest of men can be ” broken ” down, and that doesn’t constitute a majority. Men look for different qualities in other men, and these usually have to be demonstrated ( loyalty, strength of character, honesty, etc ). Women don’t really care about those things per se, but they do care about their ability to discern these things, even while not caring that much about the consistency of the application.

    You punched her in the eye but she excuses it for you because she knows you’re a great guy at heart, even if you’re misunderstood by ” average ” people that don’t get you.

    Pua speaks of the rollercoaster of emotions. This is a 100% real thing. That rollercoaster can be a long, slow ride as well.

    Imo ” breaking ” a woman down is simply getting her to drop pretense. This usually happens in most marriages and ltr’s, but the timing is off. It’s a mistake to realize who the person is you’ve committed to is after 4-6 years. You must figure this out way before any decisions are made regarding being with that person. The whole ” you’ve changed ” thing is a real phenomenon. People don’t really change in relationships as much as the pretense gets stripped away slowly.

    Strip it faster.

    Pua also talks about ” comfort “. It’s in long term comfort that the truth becomes evident. Comfort in this case isn’t necessarily about a person being at ease in the short term, but them being fully at ease that they won’t be negatively judge for being” real ” .

    I think the trick is to not project what you’re thinking into the person you’re talking to. When people show you who they are, believe them.

    I also don’t know the efficacy of being able to do this in a set timeframe. You’d have to be some kind of hypnotist.😂

    How do you do this! Idk how to explain it other than ” practice “. I don’t believe there’s a formula to speak of. There’s a base program that all women operate from. All of the other shit is built off of that similar foundation. Dig down and you’ll strike the foundation eventually, and it will be similar in an 18 year old and an 80 year old.

    Lol, the 80 year old has 80 years of layers though. The 18 year old won’t have nearly as many usually because time. But the operating system is the same. Make the 80 year old 18 again, in this society, and she will be just a girl following the herd until she has a strong enough reason not to.

    It’s long term vs short term. In the short term you can talk a girl in the club into doing things with your wee wee. Sometimes that enough. You could bang 90% of all the hot chicks in the club over time. But ” pussy ” is a low roi.

    A couple or years ago, my dad and I celebrated our birthday ( same day ) at his house in rural Virginia. A few days before there were about 12-15 women that drove hundreds of miles to celebrate ( my sisters don’t count ). My dad commented, saying ” you’re always going to be surrounded by women until the day you die “, lol.

    I think also that consistently being around women/girls from early age into their adulthood helps a lot as well. They really are all very similar at the core, and that’s how I see all of them, including one’s I’ve met a few minutes before. They all have the same hopes and fears and things they live and Shit they hate, with variations. They all go to varying lengths to hide these things. That’s why there’s a sisterhood in the first place, because women understand these things about one another. Men are trying to figure it out, and are vulnerable to subterfuge.

    Ignore” common wisdom ” as practiced by the masses, and pull back the layers. You won’t get #metoo’d either.😂

  15. @palma The whole night was a shit show from her “forgetting” we were set to meet when she had arranged it up to her suddenly taking a call from her bf and then saying he was sick and had to leave to meet him.

    I’ve had some shockers before but this was the biggest head scratcher. It was going well. She was sexualizing the conversation.

    I have a few thoughts: 1) sudden guilt and hamster spinning 2) not attracted—but then why would she respond to kino and sexualize the conversation?

    This is clearly someone with issues. The point of this was I kept my cool and shrugged it off. When she said she had to leave I just smiled and said “I’ll have those two drinks…” and I did. I never texted to follow up, I never chased. She didn’t either and I think she felt bad, guilty etc.

    The best thing to do in a situation when a girl feels bad is to let her feel that way so she doesn’t something about making it right.

  16. @Palma

    I looked her directly in the eye and said “Last week…” paused as her eyes widened, then I said “My turn and asked her apart from her lips what part of her body do you most like kissed?” She blushed again and pulled back laughing “That’s personal…” Me: “Well…go on…can’t back out…” She replied.

    The more I think of this the more I suspect she double booked and may have over-looked the date. She arrived as quickly as she could. She had drinks and we had a great Questions Game. I bounced her to another location and she sexualized. I could see she was getting texts from a guy.

    At one point she brought up having to meet her boyfriend at midnight. I laughed and asked if he knew she was meeting me. No she said. “Better he doesn’t know…” and I changed the subject.

    From a game perspective I hit on every beat. The only thing I can think of is her buying temperature overheated and she became overwhelmed by having me in front of her and her needy bf constantly texting her.

    But my follow up after was what I wanted to highlight. I just smiled and shrugged. I went in for the k-close. She did that head turn but they always do that. She didn’t pull away. But she did rush off and never texted me afterwards.

    I’ve also come to realize in the early stages of gaming a girl…EVERYTHING is a shit test. They notice how you act and react to their shitty behaviours. If you can make it seem like you don’t care without being a pushover then you can learn from theses things.

  17. @Palma After going through it, I think I activated her Anti Slut Defense somehow or rather the constant needy texting, her sexualizing the Questions Game and my kino must have fried her circuits and activated her ASD.

    The only thing to do is spin other plates. They usually come back or re-engage.

  18. @Palma Right, but context is king. We were playing the Questions Game so when she sexualizes first it requires a direct answer. If this was the “are you married?” nonsense then it’s a shit test.

    There are no Shit Tests in the Questions Game.

  19. Wala

    Calibration with 8s is heightened. Margin of error smaller. Tests more subtle. Microcalibration called for.

    “I’ve also come to realize in the early stages of gaming a girl…EVERYTHING is a shit test. ”

    My view is you started to lose it when she showed up late after skipping the first date. Instead of “you buy the first round” add “next time” and breeze.

    Put you in a chasing frame. Calibration.

    When’s the last time a dude skipped on her? Especially Asians? Never.

    THAT would’ve fried her circuits.

    I get man. Cause “hot” and you want it. Great “conversationalist”… Lol. I get it. Been there.

    It’s easy to get a little too sloppy, especially when your “standard game” smashes 7s easy.

    So from that slight break in your AF frame, looks like “questions game” puts you in too much comfort too soon.

    And then the coup de grace was the “better he doesn’t know” line… Again I get it, feels smooth atm. But she is looking for that AF guy to cheat on her BF with and THAT guy does not give a shit about her BF…

    Microcalibration.

    “She did that head turn but they always do that. ”

    This is a diagnostic tool. From this you know two things, either you’ve not built up enough attraction or she is a dominance girl and is looking for you to grab her face and force it. Probably 70 or 80% the former.

    But if this is happening “always” I’d look at your attraction phase and push more attraction stuff because ” if there is doubt then there is no doubt”.

    Good one to try and turn around. Be the AF guy…

  20. Wala

    “not attracted—but then why would she respond to kino and sexualize the conversation?”

    Add “enough” after attracted… Microcalibration. Also consider that a 32 YO soon to be former 8 with a 10 YO kid and a needy BF is trying to give you a chance to BE that AF stud she was hoping for…

    8s and above are very comfortable with Kino… It’s THEIR stock in trade, they lean in to a guy or touch his arm amd get whatever the fuck they want in life…

    Microcalibration

    So she’s sexualizing first? That’s the AF studs job. Consider she was teying to lead because you weren’t.

    Microcalibration

    Been here Wala, have the t shirts…

    Wait till HABD chimes in. 😂

  21. Last word Wala…

    Easy to get “lulled” with these and a big part of that is your game is pretty tight. It’s very easy to smoothly grab these girls amd bounce them and lead a charming encounter with lot’s of Kino and ease of touch around her, no lulls in convo, some banter etc.

    And next thing you know you think you are halfway home, because with that 7 you are. Another smooth by the book encounter! You the man!

    The difference is the 7 is giving you DDB eyes at that point and the 8 is still composed. Microcalibration.

  22. @Walawala

    “Horrible conclusion is there wasn’t enough or you didn’t maintain enough (A) attraction”

    “2) not attracted—but then why would she respond to kino and sexualize the conversation?”

    “The only thing I can think of is her buying temperature overheated and she became overwhelmed by having me in front of her and her needy bf constantly texting her”

    Yep. She was starting to feel herself getting turned on via the sexualized question game, and then stopped herself because is still wasnt 100% sure on you yet (not enough attraction/investment from her). And it certainly didnt help your case, that her boyfriend called and popped the bubble.

    But it wasn’t ASD. It was Female State Control. A concept, Teevster and I have been discussing over on our Facebook group. He wrote this post on it last week. I suggest you give it a read:

    https://www.girlschase.com/content/female-state-control-fsc-preemptive-measures

  23. @Sentient. About sums it up. The hb8 part was the obstacle the 32 year old milf part was…

    I did sexualise first with are you a good kisser , how old were you when you first kissed a boy. She then threw that one out to me.

  24. J

    “Female State Control”… More rebranded marketing terms from this dipshit. Zero new here.

    He has a fundamental – or deliberate – mis understanding of MM and is all about this:

    ” You can learn from Alek, the master and originator of sex talk himself, by booking a 1-hour phone consultation with him.”

    Lol.

    Grifters gonna grift.

  25. Palma

    It’s comfort material, not attraction material. You need to have established solid attraction before you do something like this. Or you get what Wala got. Or worse…

    In MM this would be at second location change stuff…

  26. @Sentient

    “Grifters gonna grift”

    How exactly is a dating coach offering his services a con artist?

    “rebranded marketing terms”

    What is he rebranding, old man? ASD? He goes over how it’s different from ASD in the article. It’s literally the third sentence of the post 😂. which I’m sure you didn’t even read. Old man see something new and unfamiliar = immediately dismiss it.

    But I’ll repost it just for you 😘

    “This form of resistance is very common, different from the other more well-known resistance type called anti-slut defense or ASD. The difference is that ASD deals with her defense mechanism against slut-shaming and other negative social consequences related to female promiscuity.

    FSC is a biological mechanism that helps women make rational choices about sex partners”

    Not sure if youve heard, but in 2019, Girls do not care as much about nor fear the social consequences of being perceived as a slut (she is actually praised for doing slutty shit) nor thinking it’s wrong to hook up with strangers the first night they meet. In years past, ASD WAS a big deal because there were major social consequences. Shun by society.

    My user name on NextASF was Velasco. If you read the article, you’ll see that he notes that I’M the one that brought it up.

    The outdated MM model goes: Attraction -Comfort – Seduction.

    Teevster notes the negative side effects of waiting till the end phase of the model (seduction) to be sexual (something a lot of guys who run MM complain about. I think I lost her because I didn’t show my intent. I didn’t want to because I think I didn’t have enough A2).

    “There is a negative side effect of not displaying any sexual intent until the bitter end of the seduction process, namely that you can cause some serious last-minute resistance resulting from a lack of sexual frame. A lack of sexual frame is a bad thing, as it messes up her expectations. If you want quick casual sex, a sexual frame is crucial, because sex becomes expected from a sexual guy like you.

    So, a lack of a sexual frame can set a non-sexual frame, and reduce the sexual expectations during the end game when you finally make a move. As Gunwitch once said: “She laughs, she likes you, she is having a good time, then suddenly you touch her, and she realizes that you have a dick.”

    The lack of sexual frame can communicate that you are a good guy, a potential good friend or a boyfriend, but not a sexual guy – a lover. I have written extensively on this subject.

    The point is, you must be sexual, and the earlier the better, because it allows you to make things like sex talk and sexual escalation smoother. Plus, it makes the seduction process easier. But perhaps toning it down from the start may be a good idea, or at least add some other elements like comfort and non-sexual compliance to help avoid FSC.

    But dropping the sexual intent until the bitter end will cause resistance, and resistance will slow down the process (also, who does not hate last-minute resistance?).”

    If you skip to the end of the post, the solution he offers to FSC is: focus on frames not arousal. Which is what I recommend. Not MM.

  27. @j. Right which means the constant bf texting was cock blocking me.

    This female frame control idea is that more time was needed to break it down.

    The attraction was sparked and we were pinging back and forth between comfort and attraction…

    Then her rational brain kicked in.

    I don’t think given the circumstances I could have done better But I certainly didn’t do any worse.

    What was most important was my reaction as she left which was “bye” without any needy follow up.

    Overgaming is a rookie error. In some situations you play the hand you’re given and learn from it.

  28. J

    The whole piece is full of BS rewording…

    This here. “Teevster notes the negative side effects of waiting till the end phase of the model (seduction) to be sexual ”

    Just reinforces that he (nor you) didn’t read MM, understand it or watched any of Mystery’s many seminars… Which is often a deliberate posture to then sell your “improved” products.

    Lot’s of Mystery’s attraction material set a sexual frame. Why? Duh… Preselection is the greatest attraction switch.

    What Mystery said about Seduction was wait until you were in a sex location before you began to ACT on it…

    If I thought you were mature enough i’d break it down bit it’s wasted…

    Go on with your “guys Guys guys… Check it out! My new description of water isn’t wet! It’s… Liquidy… Minds blown…”

  29. “FSC is a biological mechanism that helps women make rational choices about sex partners””

    He’s blending ASD (which is more than social shaming… Lol. It’s about how you percieve her as well [among other things]) with AF/BB.

    Not New. Loving the “rational choices” though… Gotta throw some Purple in as well…

  30. “Teevster notes the negative side effects of waiting till the end phase of the model (seduction) to be sexual (something a lot of guys who run MM complain about.”

    Somehow I don’t think that Mystery said that being sexual had to wait until seduction. You can be sexual up front with a glance at her body. You just don’t give approval about her looks until she earns it. And she doesn’t get seduction until she earns it by passing your A-2 compliance tests.

    I’m very skeptical about this FSM bullshit. Girls haven’t changed their wiring since Mystery wrote MM. Seems to me that “FSM” simply means “you have failed to generate sufficient sexual attraction” (i.e., you haven’t gotten to A-2 completion). So, if a man tries to move to C-1 before he has reached A-2 completion, a girl will see him as forward and ignorant about the phases of the mating dance and his value will take a hit in her eyes.

    (And, yes, you get some interplay moving from A-2 to C-1, but you sure as hell better not try to move to C-2 before you have A-2 completion.

    And you can be sexual and engaging (building value) as long as you are also being coquettish and playful (not committing to seduction!) before the girl has earned the privilege of your serious attention (moving into the seduction phase).

  31. @Sentient Wala

    Wait till HABD chimes in. 😂

    lol…

    on my phone… and no time…

    but +1… on palmasailor too…

    structural ‘beta’ (waiting for her/dinner/etc) puts you into a hole (and not in a good way…lol) wrt AF studville…lol… especially with hb8+…. so just squeezed your margin of error too much…

    just a great opportunity to practice turning it around!!!

    wait a couple weeks to reset then ping for a drink… and go all AF by the numbers…

    good luck!

  32. @Palma The lesson here is quit before you get blown out. If after that first drink I would have just said “Ok, let’s do this again soon” and left first I would have had a better chance for another shot.

    As it stands now she will feel terrible for the way she acted and this conflict and my silence will fry her brain but it’s still 50/50.

  33. Wala

    “The lesson here is quit before you get blown out. If after that first drink I would have just said “Ok, let’s do this again soon” and left first I would have had a better chance for another shot.”

    Go back through this thinking… This is the text you should have sent when she “forgot” to show up.

    That would fry her circuits.

  34. Palma

    A C S is a progression but not a stair step “set and forget” routine. You will cycle between/through as you go. If you want to criticize MM this is one area he did not make hyper explicit in the book for the sperglords.

    Watching the dozens of tapes fills in the gaps.

  35. Sentient
    On the phone thing.

    One exec I know is former military, his term is “stack arms”. Everyone’s phone handset goes in the middle of the conference room table, no exceptions. Ringtones? Ignored. The millennials hate it but don’t dare to try to buck the order.

    Opportunity to lead by example; opportunity for compliance testing, in many venues.
    Once I asked someone “Who else did you bring with you?” pointing to the phone. Eventually she got the hint.

  36. @Sentient – noted re the comments to @TheMarquis! Now I just need to actually have some dates and meet some girls and not be in constant pain from training!

    @Walawala – just a couple of minor points quickly as don’t have much time – most points covered already anyway.

    First, I would personally not text to let a girl i’ve arrived anywhere. Comes across a bit needy. At most I’d have touched base earlier in the day with some kind of pretext (NOT “Are we still on for 6pm?” More like assuming the sale and saying “I may only get there a few minutes after 6” – achieves the same thing, but is not a needy checking up on her). But once I’ve arrived? No (unless I’m late of course). Either she’s there or not and if she’s not there I go after 15-20 min.

    Of course, anything is doable – if there’s enough attraction and your Game is good, you can still do just fine with a text letting a girl know you’ve arrived – but in and of itself I think it comes across needy.

    Second, on the questions game – it’s a great tool and there are many variations. I used to use a different variation which I liked better, to the one Sentient linked (I probably have the rules saved somewhere), but same principles. Basically it’s a tool to a) build comfort; and b) sexualize. Maybe a touch of attraction but not really. I have had amazing results doing it (including online – have had girls I’ve not met masturbate for me and send me clips of themselves live etc), but caveat: you need to have attraction, a good deal of it first, before playing the game – otherwise the girl will not want to play the game and engage/invest in you (I’ve had girls refuse outright to play the Game too because they just didn’t care enough about me – had some great comments from YaReally on an old FR that identified that issue). It also helps to have a goal – to kind of be taking it somewhere (in this case – taking it sexual and getting her turned on). Don’t let it drift aimlessly – you already should have a plan for your questions and your answers.

    All that said, I stopped using it. It was great back when I was getting used to dates, and sexualizing and escalation and pulling girls. But I stopped 2-3 years ago. It simply wasn’t necessary anymore. I pretty only go for SNLs from online dates now and I usually get them (well, I haven’t had a date or had sex in a LOONG time because of this crazy physical fitness year I’m on, but when I was doing it, till 6 months ago). That means I don’t really need comfort much – just a tiny bit – it’s more about amping the attraction and getting her horny fast and going for a fast pull. So that aspect is basically irrelevant (plus too much drifting in Questions Game can actually delay a pull that should have happened faster – another point Sentient hammered into me after I lost some lays by waiting too long). The second reason for the Questions Game is sexual escalation – I simply achieve that in other ways now – usually by blatant ogling of the chick, some kino (not that much), and a lot of sexual stories and anecdotes. That said, writing this out makes me think, it may be worth reintroducing some questions to the “sexual escalation” part of the date just to get a girl to invest more in me, even if not as a formal Game..hmm…mental note for my next date.

  37. @Sentient/Palma:

    ON this:

    “A C S is a progression but not a stair step “set and forget” routine. You will cycle between/through as you go. If you want to criticize MM this is one area he did not make hyper explicit in the book for the sperglords.

    Watching the dozens of tapes fills in the gaps.”

    They did explain that in the live MM seminar I did, way back in the mid-2000s….strange it didn’t make it to videos or book.

  38. @Sentient

    “Which is often a deliberate posture to then sell your “improved” products process”

    Teevster and I (as well as others in my chat) get laid in less than an hour, because we understand and follow the same process (there’s no accident “I don’t know what I did. it just happened” fools gold bullshit that mystery talked about. There are deliberate frames/topics we set/talk about that have allowed us to cut through that long process. That we want other guys to be following as well. That’s why I post here. I read the field reports on here, and see where that person could have cut corner here and there. Said this and this instead of that and that. So they could have got their desired results.While you guys are still suck in 2007, with your 7 hour rule.

    “Lot’s of Mystery’s attraction material set a sexual frame. Why? Duh… Preselection is the greatest attraction switch”

    Ya. And there have been improvements since 07′ that work better. Which I’ve pointed out before. Preselection was a weak form of setting a sexual frame. But he wasn’t trying to set a sexual frame back in 07′. He was trying to flip that attraction switch. Since that time, There have been techs are were created specifically to set a sexual frame.

    In the article:
    “Using sexual innuendos [mystery]
    * Sexual jokes (GM style! A bit risky, so mix in some humor) [Grandmaster style. Not mystery]
    * Sex talk that is neither overly explicit nor hypnotic. This communicates that you are a sexual guy, and you know how to please women sexually; a normal sex conversation [teevster. Not mystery]
    * Talking about sex and society while displaying liberal sexual attitudes and low-keyness [teevster. Not mystery]
    * Light touching (I refer to this as social touching); it’s key to set a sexual frame and break the intimacy barrier [mystery]”
    “He’s blending ASD (which is more than social shaming… Lol”
    He’s not. ASD is deals with social aspects. Not biological. Thats the difference. You remove the SOCIAL consequences and she will act on her desires. That’s why they take so many dicks on Tinder and when they travel abroad. Not because the guys on tinder or the foriegn guys they meet abroad have superior game than the local guys back home. But simply because no one will find out. And they will not be at high risk of getting pregnant from taking 50+ dicks per year because of birth control. Back in 19(whenever birth control was created. Too lazy to look it up) and when travel was expensive, there was legit social shaming for whoring around, there were less sluts (girls with 100+ lay counts).
    They may be the same BIOLOGICALLY under the hood as back then (girls are just girls), But because the SOCIAL shaming aspect has effectly been pretty much removed, you get the end results today.

  39. ” Teevster and I (as well as others in my chat) get laid in less than an hour, because we understand and follow the same process (there’s no accident “I don’t know what I did. it just happened” fools gold bullshit that mystery talked about. There are deliberate frames/topics we set/talk about that have allowed us to cut through that long process. That we want other guys to be following as well. That’s why I post here. I read the field reports on here, and see where that person could have cut corner here and there. Said this and this instead of that and that. So they could have got their desired results.While you guys are still suck in 2007, with your 7 hour rule.”

    I want to know, seriously – no kidding, how do most guys – the majority – manage to get laid consistently without any of this stuff?

    Is it that girls will not fuck unless a man knows these acronyms?

  40. Palma

    I disagree strongly. I know guys that are knocking chicks down like bowling pins, and have been doing so for decades.

    It’s just that I’m not a fan of the ” everyone else in the world is doing it wrong, lol, lol, lol ” vibe. Chicks fuck. If a guy needs to understand anything at all, that should be the first thing. The ever growing minutae ( to boost sales ) is a little odd. These are women we’re talking about, not quantum physics.

    /end rant.

    big smile.

  41. Allow me to help. Both of you are right.

    There are obviously naturals/alphas who have never heard of Game who are now and always have been knocking it out of the park with women, long before Mystery was born. Mystery’s genius was that he was able to reverse engineer and codify what they were doing. Not that he was the first man to get laid a lot. This is what Blax is talking about.

    However Palma is talking about something different- he’s talking about the vast majority of Gameless betas who do get laid but not like the alphas – and they do indeed grind out the numbers and compromise and do it in the woman’s frame. But they get laid.

  42. “I disagree strongly. I know guys that are knocking chicks down like bowling pins, and have been doing so for decades”

    Because those guys were naturals (by natural I DO NOT mean they were born with God level game at birth you fucking idiot. (How many times have we had this conversation?) By natural I mean they got laid at an early age 11-15 because they were either or a combination of 1) extroverted/not autistic 2) good looking 3) had male role models). Henceforth, They had zero need for PUA. Someone who didn’t need PUA to become good with girls is what we refer to as a natural. You, blax are a natural.

    By “WE” I mean PUAs (guy who did not get laid early on because 1) ugly/average looking 2) introvert/autistic 3) no male role models) who had to conciously learn how to get laid. “Just be cool/confident/be yourself bro” isn’t gonna help 21 year old clueless virgins.

  43. Palma

    By the way, whilst it is my gut feeling that most men over 50 could get a giiirlllfriend complete with negotiated sex for a year or two at most by trading commitment,

    I do not believe that most over 50 women could get a boyfriend by offering sexual in return for commitment.

    The tables turn I think.

    Men just don’t want to know and don’t believe they can go younger.

    I agree with this 100%.

    But I don’t believe in guys negotiating for sex with any woman of any age. They don’t have to, unless they are wearing a ankle bracelet and forbidden from leaving a specified area.

    Also, men over 50 can’t be ” old “, as in out of reasonable shape and mentally stuck in a past time period. I think avoiding these things make life more enjoyable, women aside. I have friends my age and younger that just kind of give up and are satisfied with less life because ” old “. Everything in society will allow a man to take this route because nobody really gives a fuck.

    Looks like most guys don’t plan for getting older, or greyer, or fatter or whatever. Maybe it’s priorities or something.

    I get not wanting to play extended games with some youngster, lol, but things can still be on one’s own terms. It’s better for them to try and negotiate sex with you imo, lmao.

    Personally, I turn 58 this weekend. If you’d asked me at 25 if I’d lived this long, I’d have said not likely. My dad turns 81 same day. He’s still marveling that he’s still here and in relatively ( compared to other 80 year olds ) great health. Even multiple mini strokes didn’t effect him. If I were single next year, I’m not sure I’d want some 20 year old. Lol, I wouldn’t know until I’ve gone without sex for an extended period of time though, so that could change. I don’t see them as magical or special, just younger.

    Unless they posses great personalities, and a lot of them do not.

    But yeah, guys need to understand and believe that , within reason, if they must have a youngster, it’s totally within their grasp.

    …. but I don’t think it’s going to be what they think it’s going to be.

  44. I think you both mean to say 50 YO WOMEN and younger men…

    On cue. Lyon

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B0MHKVeACd0/

    It’s a fantasy for women and no where near reality. I never see a young guy with an older woman. I see a lot of 50yo guys with mid 20s women.

    But for sure the average (that word) 50 guy would much rather join with a 50 YO woman.

    Something about “talking” which I don’t get at all…

  45. “Back in 19(whenever birth control was created. Too lazy to look it up) and when travel was expensive, there was legit social shaming for whoring around”

    The first girl I banged was in ’74 and she was on the pill. She was paranoid about getting caught, so we didn’t go on dates where we might be seen, but we banged in her dorm for five days when no one else lived there during summer school. Travel wasn’t very expensive back then. Gas was a helluva lot cheaper. Social expectations for girls were a whole lot more conservative back then and ASD was definitely ramped up. Girls are expected to be more sexual today. I still see some ASD from girls in my favorite bar, but not so much from out of towners.

  46. Thank you Again to everyone who posted for me.

    I’m not sure I have that much to add. I think I just need to absorb the firehose of information and try to process it both mentally and through action, most importantly by implementing recommendations from IRL and Sentient and Having A Bad Day.

    It’s hard to change my brain to “living in my frame” – it’s hard to even know what that means in real time but I’m going to do what it takes.

    I have just changed all my online dating accounts to say that I am married.

    Next time I travel, I will walk around the bars after work wearing my ring and see how it goes instead of sitting in my hotel and getting girls from Tinder to come over.

    IAS – my wife according to her has N=3 including me – her first was a nice guy, her second was the guy who cheated on her and I was the third, after months of dating. Of course she could be lying but I have no reason to doubt her. Of course she dated actively for years before me and she has done everything but full intercourse with lots of guys. She hasn’t told me those numbers of course…

    IRL – Thank you for the stuff about the Jocko Willink book.

    I don’t know why exactly my wife had the idea for the book or why she bought it. Probably to help deal with some of his issues with discipline and anger management and self control that I’ve posted about before (although he’s better when I’m here). Yes, ideally I would have done that – although I do other things like the nightly bedtime story. But I couldn’t exactly take over the book from her.

    I hadn’t thought of using the book as a jumping off point for activities with my son. It simply hadn’t occurred to me. Do you mean like we should read (for example) the chapter where Marc learns swimming and then on the weekend go to the swimming pool and re-enact what Marc did in the book? And the same with working out and Jiu-Jitsu and so on? Basically use the book as a jumping off point for several months of father/son activities? With the idea that my son will try to make the same progress Marc did?

    On the sleeping enough/stress point: I generally sleep pretty well – 8 hours a night solid. And when I sleep it’s pretty good sleep. However, I do have insomnia occasionally – maybe a few nights a month where I simply can’t get to sleep even if I’m tired. I guess that could be stress related. But since I started regular gym visits last year I’m much better physically.

    The real challenge is that when dealing with my wife now, I know what I’m doing. I have plenty of fuckups and backward steps along with progress, but even when I make mistakes, I know what the mistake was, I know the plan and how to move forward. I have the framework in my head, at least as of late 2018. With my son, I am still fumbling my way along a bit – I’m still not entirely sure what I’m doing and don’t have a clear framework to follow yet – which is kind of sad considering he’s 7 but better late than never. That’s why IRL’s suggestion broke new ground – I’d literally never thought about doing parenting that way.

    Couple of incidents from the last few days:

    -Wife met up with a friend and told me she’d shown her friend (who hasn’t seen me since last year), pictures of me and friend had told her I look “hunky” and “really good” and have clearly been working out since friend last saw me. Interestingly wife told me this three separate times the next day, each time as if she was telling me for the first time.

    -Talking about the same friend who called me “hunky” who is having some marital problems. Too stressed at work and works too hard for a boss who doesn’t appreciate her apparently. Anyway her husband told her he “doesn’t want to have sex with a corpse” and they haven’t had sex in months. I said “that is called starfish sex” and wife got annoyed, almost like she was faux irritated. She literally said “When you say things like that, it makes me not want to have sex with you..when we were first dating it felt like you were this responsible, mature adult and I was the crazy one, but you actually seem to be regressing back to being a frat boy when you use words like this..” – but she didn’t really seem sad. “Exasperated” is probably the right word.

    -Yesterday talking about divorce of a different friend of my wife. Son was around. Wife going on about the evil done by the ex-husband and I said “there’s two sides to every story – we haven’t heard his” and she got upset saying there isn’t. Then my son leaned over and tried to ask me something about this quietly – almost a whisper, but not quite. And she almost shouted at him not to whisper to me and to say it loudly.

    It almost feels like my wife is scared of losing control, especially since earlier in the day she’d been joking about how she does all the childcare and I don’t spend time with the kids (not true, at least when I’m not travelling) and my son defended me and said I hang out with him.

  47. Another one to add which made me laugh out loud at the sheer childishness of it and also the way in which younger girls think and act.

    A girl I took out twice in her 20’s, smart, sexy i’d put at HB8 just because she’s slim and young pulled a stunt worth sharing.

    I took her out twice, k-closed but because of her job and weird hours it was hard to meet up for a 3rd time.

    I suggested drinks 3 weeks back and she replied but never got back to me with an alternate time. So after 3 weeks I ping text:

    Me: Kidnapped by pirates?

    She immediately responds but it’s pure banter and I don’t suggest a meet up. But I do sexualize the texts and she responds.

    I come out to a bar that invited me out for my birthday. She’s there and completely blanks me. I blank her and chat with the girls, the host and otherwise have a good time. There’s also some birthday cake for people with birthdays in that month. She never approaches.

    I leave. Sure enough within 20 minutes I get a text: “Happy birthday”.

    I open it which is indicated by the blue check marks. But I don’t respond.

    An hour later I go to look at my messages and I notice she’s deleted her Happy Birthday greeting.

    I laughed. Anyone wanting to understand how a girl’s hamster spins this is it.

    I did not respond. My prediction would be that she will reach out again in that way girl’s do by pretending nothing happened. But as I mention above I had 2 dates so i’m either done or the next meet up is a bang at my place.

    But for those of you looking at some witty response note the power of no response and the way it drives girl’s crazy.

    If this one wasn’t somehow turned on or attracted she wouldn’t have deleted a personal greeting like this. Who does this?

  48. Wala

    That’s IOI/IOD loop in action. You stopped chasing – and IOD. And you then did what?

    What you are supposed to do after an IOD – you Demonstrated High Value…

    DHV – “chat with the girls, the host and otherwise have a good time. ”

    So what happens – she gives you a huge IOI…

    Now I think you dropped it by not playing along, after her BD text. Called for an IOI back and a compliance test.

    Her delete was an IOD.

    Remember – microcalibration with 8s and up… Trick is spotting AND reacting in real time…

    But Teevster would have banged her right on the 🎂 😆😂

  49. Marquis

    “I have just changed all my online dating accounts to say that I am married.”

    You crack me up…

    “Interestingly wife told me this three separate times the next day, each time as if she was telling me for the first time.”

    She’s looking for a reaction from you. Ignoring is best, or an offhand “yeah. I get that a lot” and MOVE ON…

    Avoid the whole beta HS boy “me! Rillllly? What did she say exactly!!!!”

    “Anyway her husband told her he “doesn’t want to have sex with a corpse” and they haven’t had sex in months. I said “that is called starfish sex” and wife got annoyed, almost like she was faux irritated. ”

    Oh make no mistake she WAS irritated. Shots fired! A man is exercising sexual agency against a sister and another MAN agrees…! Must squash this rebellion… Save the Starfish 🌟!!!

    She knows if her friend can get thrown over for this she can too…

    So she plays the “shame” Rolodex card

    “When you say things like that, it makes me not want to have sex with you..”

    Get your ass back on Starfish Reservation…

    Blow that shit up. “Well if it was going to be starfish I wouldn’t want to either…”

    Boom… 🎳

    Make no mistake she isn’t exasperated, she’s becoming terrified. You are a runaway train and she’s foing to choose to get on or get left… Dread Process is going on here.

    “Yesterday talking about divorce of a different friend of my wife. Son was around. Wife going on about the evil done by the ex-husband and I said “there’s two sides to every story – we haven’t heard his” and she got upset saying there isn’t. Then my son leaned over and tried to ask me something about this quietly – almost a whisper, but not quite. And she almost shouted at him not to whisper to me and to say it loudly.”

    More attempts at shaming that men also have a choice to stay in a marraige. Sisterhood Uber Alles in action. Of course she has thought about and rationalized all of HER reasons for leaving your ass. Count on that. And she will tell your son there is only one side to that story. Believe Women!!!!

    “It almost feels like my wife is scared of losing control, especially since earlier in the day she’d been joking about how she does all the childcare and I don’t spend time with the kids (not true, at least when I’m not travelling) and my son defended me and said I hang out with him.”

    Almost? This is EXACTLY what is happening. Fear of losing control, losing you and her son. Existencial female fear – being alone.

    Keep it up. You are heading into the crucible where she will decide to submit or not. I bet she will.

  50. @Marquis

    Good Job.

    “I said “that is called starfish sex” and wife got annoyed, almost like she was faux irritated. She literally said “When you say things like that, it makes me not want to have sex with you..when we were first dating it felt like you were this responsible, mature adult and I was the crazy one, but you actually seem to be regressing back to being a frat boy when you use words like this..” – but she didn’t really seem sad. “Exasperated” is probably the right word.”

    One of the cards in her Rolodex is: “You/this is not the man I married”

    Watch her say that. When she does. Say “I don’t like that person that I was”.

    “Responsible, mature adult”= Provision-er for myself and my kids. Her exasperation is that lack of former control she had over you when you were Betatized.

    Almost? This is EXACTLY what is happening. Fear of losing control, losing you and her son. Existential female fear – being alone.

    Keep it up. You are heading into the crucible where she will decide to submit or not. I bet she will.

    Dread, soft and covert. It generates desire in a defensive crouch. When you are away she admires you.

    The cycle of going away and coming together is a venue for sexual desire in the marriage.

    Here is a Ted Talk by Esther Perel on that dynamic. It has a transcript if you don’t want to listen to her Belgian accent:

    https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_the_secret_to_desire_in_a_long_term_relationship/transcript?language=en

  51. @sentient. She deleted it within an hour of sending it somehow expecting me to jump on it and respond. So no, I didn’t blow this. She will be back. She’s young and wants to know the guy she’s with can measure up. This was a shit test to see if I came chasing. I didn’t.

  52. Marquis,

    “And she almost shouted at him not to whisper to me and to say it loudly.”

    Translation: “You’re turning the kids against me by making me act crazy-paranoid and say outrageous things!”

    Been there.

    Keep in mind when she does this she considers the kids and you as useful tools of her external validation. It is a sign of insecurity and misplaced expectation.

    If your wife considers the usefulness of others (provisioning, sex, admiration, status) worthwhile and that usefulness wanes or evaporates, her love turns to hate as her expectations of your meaning are disappointed. She wants the good of you but for all the wrong reasons.

    OOH, men assume a burden of performance. OTOH, selflessness to an expectant woman only reinforces more selfish bad behavior.

    A little Latin for you: Res est sacra miser: A wretch is a sacred thing.

    It’s not an elevation of the wretched bi-otches into lovable tramps. Oh no.

    It’s a reminder that the damaged and weak and ill-tempered must be handled by highly skilled hands. Not everyone is up to the task and dabbling in helping a troubled soul. Acting with cursory understanding makes them much, much worse.

    Marquis, mete out your goodwill only where it will help. She’s a poor steward of the gifts she’s been given and guiding her along without messing her up more is hard work. She knows not what she does. You do and are acting in all y’all’s best interests in mind. That’s leadership in the face of her fear and incompetence. Keep it up.

  53. Wala

    Well you have the view she is going to contact you next. I think this was microcalibration window missed (specific to her BD text).

    Time will tell.

    Seeing her out again not the same as her getting in touch.

    I hope you are right.

  54. Palma

    Tantum was holding solid frame in her native language but she was having none of it

    Sounded more nervous / slightly embarrassed than harsh. Was her boss anywhere in the place?

  55. Sentient and SJF and EhIntellect – thank you.

    Thanks for the confirmation regarding my wife’s loss of control – I did think so but it’s interesting.

    I’m soldiering on.

    Oh I realised I’d forgotten the most important of the Starfish conversation and didn’t add it in my last post.

    When she got irritated and told me she didn’t want to have sex with me, I didn’t really respond or justify myself, and then she babbled something else for 30 seconds or so, and then she said “But I’m not like that in bed..I don’t just lie there”.

    I said “I know”, and walked out of the kitchen.

    So that was pretty clearly her trying to fish for compliments from me I think.

    EhIntellect – it’s hard for me to think of my wife in such cold dispassionate terms. But I understand where you’re coming from especially in the sense of how she blames ME sometimes for her HER outbursts. I’ll try to keep that attitude in mind.

  56. Marquis

    Somebody posted this earlier

    https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/lifestyle/article/faceapp-beauty-standards

    It bears further scrutiny because this is exactly what’s going on in her hind brain.

    Every day you are getting more valuable and she is getting less valuable. The script is flipped (insert RT SMV chart)

    Of course the subtext is all SJW Equalist drivel – women are beautiful, app designers reflect misogynist bias, etc.

    But all the anti reality spray in the world is not leeping out the deep dark inner truth from taking center stage… Afew quotes:

    ““It sounds like an absolute existential horror app,” says 31-year-old university worker Bex Coates. “I’m never going to use it. I don’t want to see what I’d look like in 20 years. That stuff scares me anyway.” When it came out, Coates discussed FaceApp in a WhatsApp group with her female friends. “Everyone was like, ‘Oh God, I saw it, it’s hideous. No one can ever see it, I deleted it immediately.’” She also noticed that very few women were sharing their aged-up selfies.”

    “When I looked at the image, I remembered an unpleasant conversation I’d had a long time ago, when I was at university. A fellow student – a friend, actually – told me, very seriously, that women peaked physically at the age of 18. I haven’t thought about his comment much in the last nine years, but staring down the barrel of my FaceApp selfie it’s all I can think about.”

    “Reading this, you might think: what’s the fuss about? It’s only an app. But FaceApp takes female anxieties around ageing and makes them concrete. When we are old, we will be unlovable and worthless and contemptible and derisory. Our partners will leave us for younger women. We will end up alone, invisible, in a society that confers greater status and legitimacy upon men as they grow older, even as it strips worth away from women one frown-line and wrinkle at a time.”

    There are many others… Lol. 😂😂😂

    This kind of reality is even worse for hot girls. Even though they will ALWAYS have a soft landing and some guy around no matter what age, they lose that much more Social Capital.

    For every line you see, she knows of 10 more…

    At some point all the lies are stripped away and she faces reality, usually too late. Or they go insane.

  57. Geez, Rollo

    Just had a post not post in field reports regarding love the one your with and your child, Marquise.

    It disappeared.

    Can you retrieve/post it?

    If not, so what?

  58. @SJF

    Get in the habit of Ctrl + A / Ctrl + C. Every time I make a post anywhere online, every so often, I always hit Ctrl + A, then Ctrl + C. I’ve been doing it so long I don’t even realize I’m doing it anymore. Just auto-pilot. It saves a lot of frustration in the long run.

    If you’re really working up a masterpiece, paste it into Notepad for safekeeping. But for the most part, keeping it copied to the clipboard using those keyboard shortcuts will suffice. I got into this habit years ago in my teens when I frequented a few different forums and lost many a post to bizarre Internet errors. And have never had that issue again. Ctrl + A, Ctrl + C. I just did it right now myself. If a comment gets “eaten,” you’ll have your trigger finger(s) on Ctrl + V ready to paste your comment that’s saved to the clipboard.

    For all our fallen comments that never got to see the light of day, we use these keyboard shortcuts. Daily, faithfully, in their honor.

  59. @TheMarquis

    About the rooted (even before the cultural programming feeding it) pro-feminine bias of women, it springs I think from solipsism — whenever they pick sides in an issue involving another woman and another man, they will patron the woman outside of any concept of fairness, reciprocality, and rationality, because they themselves are women and their ego perceives the other woman, as, partly, her own self.

    Basically they can do nothing aside from irrationally, unfairly, patron their own egos. Anything beyond the personal sphere is felt and judged according to how much it is felt as “their own business”.

    On the other hand, in an argument between a man and a woman, men’s instincts is to patron the woman and attack, or at least find fault with, the man.

    I really find this unamusing, but everybody seems to accept it quite lightly.

  60. #@TheMarquis

    Proof of what my previous comment says is, when the strange woman’s interests and conduct cross Woman A’s interests (thus upset her ego, the center of her mental expanse, occupying most of it), then she’ll be against the woman, see her as scheming and bad whilst the man involved in the intrigue as “innocent” and “harmless”, and words of truth on the negative sides of womanhood will, exceptionally, pour out of her.

    That’s the only exception to the rule.

  61. Come on now TT. Do you even TRM?

    It’s not ego. It’s women’s collectivist nature. What’s good for one women benefits them all.

    Load some Evo-bio/psych in your gun, you’ll hit a lot more targets.

  62. Marquis

    “Yesterday talking about divorce of a different friend of my wife. Son was around. Wife going on about the evil done by the ex-husband and I said “there’s two sides to every story – we haven’t heard his” and she got upset saying there isn’t. Then my son leaned over and tried to ask me something about this quietly – almost a whisper, but not quite. And she almost shouted at him not to whisper to me and to say it loudly.”

    This shouting at your son is about hypergamy. Threat one the sisterhood hypergamy is threatened by your two sides to every story. Threat two your sons loyalty to his paternal father is a threat to her own hypergamy.

    The fact that he feels the need to whisper or not speak up around her points to abusive conditioning.

    This is normal behavior on her part considering that hypergamy has not only been unchained it is also being promoted constantly. This is the result of conditioning that is congruent with existing instinct or taking her worst features for civilized coexistence and promoting them. Be thankful that you are there for your son.
    If you were divorced she would naturally beat this loyalty out of him.

  63. Palma

    I feel you man. My “conditioning” started at the age of three when I let it slip about a male friend of hers from college visiting,I was exited about being rolled in an old tire.

    Her main problem was my Dad and I had bonded so that even after the divorce I remained loyal and suffered no end of abuse that continues today.

  64. Palma,that’s a rough mouthful. Looks to have been written by a 13 yo. His attitudes will change when his interest in girls peaks,and again when he witnesses hypergamy first hand and feels the effects. It could be a long wait but from what I’ve seen it is inevitable.

    I guess I was 17 and had it with her and her actor husband so I went to work for my Dad. All he ever said about her is “she is crazy”, on the other hand I could fill a story book about him and why he is this way and that from her words.

    At some point someone will tell him to start acting the part of a man and his loyalty will be to your actions,they will become his at that time.

    The effects of the abuse for me are personality, the siblings however have daddy issues to this day ,one sister on her 4th marriage and the other on her fifth and my brothers friends are dying of aids.

  65. Fantastic Friday evening (26th July) in the excellent company of @Palmasailor in London’s Covent Garden and Soho districts by way of London Summit 2#. 🙂

    As theory is nothing without practice, here a some FRs (my first) for examination and comment:

    :: FR1 – Tapas Bar: Mid-to-late-20s Blonde barmaid from Madrid (“MB” = Madrid Blonde) ::

    Palmasailor and I needed a bite to eat, so we dipped into a tapas bar early evening, and ate some good Spanish cold meats, tuna and tortilla, washed down with an excellent glass of white wine. I noticed the barmaid, a reasonable 5.5/6, slim honey-coloured blonde (a typical Spanish ‘rubia’) working very hard behind the bar – much harder than any of her colleagues.

    Most of the conversation was conducted in Spanish (which I speak fluently), and I find that being able to speak a woman’s native language when she thinks that you can’t works like catnip.

    I kicked-off by asking MB to recommend a white wine; she proposed a few,but then I noticed one from Galicia, north-west Spain (Albariño) which I have had before; I commented that it was very good, and she agreed, so I ordered a couple of glasses for Palma and me.

    Casually asked MB where she was from; she told me Madrid; I fired-back that this was not only the capital of her home country, but also known as ‘the City of Kings’; she smiled – so far, so good.

    More casual conversation, interspersed with turning away from MB and talking to Palma. I asked MB how long she had been in London – three weeks. I then asked her why she had come to London, and she said that she needed a break from her life in Madrid, and that she had come to improve her English. I followed-up by asking her what she did in Madrid; she replied that she was studying economics.

    Quick not-so cold read: there are TWO universities in Madrid (called La Autónoma and La Complutense) – so I took a punt and asked her which of the two she studied at; her eyes widened a little, genuinely surprised that I would even know this. 🙂 She replied that it was La Complutense. She then commented that my Spanish was very good, and asked me how come. I replied that I had worked in Spain for a year some time ago, as well as studying the language. Not much opportunity to talk further, as she had to get her head down and work.

    Palma suggested that I try and get her number, but the continuity was broken, as MB disappeared out back for while, I stepped outside to smoke, and Palma had to go the restroom.

    Around five minutes later, MB re-appeared. Palma and I were nearing the end of our meal, and so I took a punt – this convo all in Spanish:

    Me: Put your number in here (I handed her my phone)

    Her: Why?

    Me: So that I can give you a call (with a slightly devilsh grin).

    Her: No (with a measured shake of the head).

    No comment or reaction from me; I then coolly turned back to Palma and he and I carried on talking, and then got up to leave. As we left, I turned to MB again and said that we had had a good time, and that I had appreciated her company.

    Palma rightly pointed out afterwards that I failed to earn an IOI from MB – point taken. I also rushed things, as I thought that she was about to take off, or that her shift was finishing.

    I reckon it might be worth taking another shot as, having only been in London for three weeks, MB probably hasn’t had much time to figure anything out in terms of a social life. Who knows. Definitely a lot of fun, and as, Palma said, this was a good example of ‘rejection being better than regret’.

    TantumErgo

  66. :: FR 2# – Friday 26th July with @Palmasailor in London – French / Swiss duo (both early-to-mid 20s brunettes) ::

    PART 1

    Bounced into a Peruvian bar with Palma and had a couple of drinks outside at a table. Palma went inside to get a couple more, returning with two girls, one French and one Swiss – both brunettes in their early -to-mid 20s, and friends who had, at one time, both shared a flat together. Palma pulled up an extra chair and the French girl (“FG) immediatly sat down, while the Swiss girl (“SG) stood opposite us, saying that she preferred to stand.

    General convo about how long they had been in London and why. FG said she was from Paris, a fashion designer, and worked for Stella McCartney, and had been in London for around two years. SG said that she was from Geneva, a photographer and had been in London for around three months or so.

    Palma zeroed-in on SG about her photography, as he knows a lot about photography, and began to question her about the types of camera she used, whether she photographed professionally or experimentally, etc, etc. SG mentioned that she had a boyfriend (almost instant ASD?).

    Meanwhile, I engaged FG, asking her which district of Paris she was from; she said she was from near La Bastille; I quipped that this was in the 14th district, and she said I was wrong, and that it was the 12th …. general chit-chat about Paris, etc.

    Then Palma and I switched focus: Palma talking to FG, while I talked to SG. I quizzed SG about life in Geneva (a city which I have been to several times), and SG seemed mildly impressed that I knew about her home-town.

    General four-way conversation about Brexit (for those of you stateside, this has been THE political topic of the past few years in the UK: the UK’s imminent departure from the European Union): both FG and SG saying this was a very bad idea, with FG being quite opinionated and slightly arrogant (as is the Gallic way – Ha! Ha!); SG much more acquiescent and amenable on this subject.

    FG and SG then took off, and I thought that they had either gone home or gone to another bar ….

    PART 2 (Follows FR3#)

    Palma had gone home by this time (around an hour later), and FG and SG mysteriously reappeared. FG immediately sat down where she had before. I was standing, and SG stood next to me. I joked that I thought that they had taken off, and FG replied that they had been inside this whole time!

    Decided to ignore FG who, despite not having given any indication as to the presence of a boyfriend, seemed somewhat sour and difficult – I suspect somewhat opinionated and ‘high-maintenance’, and so turned my attention to SG.

    Spoke at length about the differences between Geneva and London, which seemed to relax her – entire convo in French: -) (more catnip!). SG again dropped the fact that she had a BF into the convo by way of ASD, which I ignored. After about 30 minutes they got up to leave, and I suggested that we meet again for a drink, and persuaded them to connect on Facebook; they agreed … but have yet to accept the friend requests.

    Verdict: Strike-out – although potentially better chances with SG than with FG.

    TantumErgo

  67. :: FR 3# – Friday 26th July with @Palmasailor in London – Argentine Tango (Brunette, 43 (“ABR”) and Blonde, 48 (“ABL”))

    Same Peruvian bar with Palma; FG and SG from FR2# had disappeared …. Two women came and sat down at the table adjacent to where Palma and I were sitting.

    This was a poser … Firstly, the seating arrangment was not good: the two women, both Argentine were effectively sitting side-by-side at one table, with Palma and I mirroring at the other – like starlings on a fence, so difficult to engage in convo. Secondly, and this is just my personal preference, which, in itself is not an obstacle, With one or two exceptions, the women I have laid since my divorce three years ago have usually been in their 20s (Babushka was in her early 30s), as I tend to find that women over 35 tend to have too much drama and baggage …

    General openers from both Palma and I about where they were from, how long they had been in London, etc. Learned that they were friends, and that the Brunette (ABR) was descended from an authentic Gaucho family from the Argentine Pampas, whiile the Blonde (ABL) was of mixed Argentine / Italian heritage, and worked as a PE teacher (she had a very good figure for a woman of her age).

    As I was sitting next to ABL, I decided to focus on her. Comfort convo about her Italian heritage, dropping the fact that I was part Latin, also of Italian heritage from Naples and Sicily. General comments about the impact of Brexit, with Palma joining in …

    Then I switched to Spanish (more catnip!), lasering in on ABL and complimenting her about her figure and how her being a PE teacher obviously kept her in good shape. 🙂 Giving her gentle kino as I said this, and caressing her shoulder (she was wearing a sleeveless dress), with good skin contact. No negative reaction, and so carried on caressing her shoulder throughout.

    It seemed to be going well … although ABR didn’t contribute anything else to the convo at all, and was effectively frozen out. Bad mistake on my part …

    It was getting late, and Palma had to go, and so got up to leave and say goodnight. We both thought that I was in with ABR and then Boom! They both got up to leave as well, saying they had to go home. No chance to get a phone number …

    Verdict: Strike-out! Good openers, and good comfort, but, having failed to engage ABR in the general convo, I probably blasted my chances of then being able to isolate ABL effectively.

    TantumErgo

  68. :: FR 4# / FNL- Friday 26th July in London – Black-haired mature Greek-Cypriot (55) (“GC”) ::

    Note: @Palmasailor knows most of the details of this FR / FNL report – and it’s quite lengthy :-/

    So, after @Palmasailor had left for the evening, I decided to have a night-cap at a favourite basement bar of mine in London’s Soho district. This is actually a gay bar which I know well, and I am friends with one of the barmen there, whom I have known for about three years.

    They were already closing by the time I got there, but I persuaded the bouncer to let me in for one drink. I installed myself at a corner of the bar, had a beer and chewed the fat / talked shit with my barman buddy, whom I hadn’t seen for around six months or so. (Note: he is also a close friend of ‘Babushka’, my ex-girlfriend, so I was well aware that he would report the fact that he had seen me to her ;-), although he didn’t mention her to me at all during our conversation.)

    After about 10 minutes, quietly drinking my beer, as the bar was emptying, a mature, full-bodied raven-haired woman in a red-dress (GC) approached me from left-field with hand outstretched, grinning at me. I took her hand and shook it, smiling, and then she walked on to join a gay couple, I later learned she had met previously that evening and come into the bar with. I stood there observing the general conversation, when, unexpectedly, the head barman asked her to leave!

    I thought nothing of it, finished my beer and also made to leave, saying goodnight to my buddy.

    GC was waiting outside. I stopped to smoke, and she asked me to go back in and see if her two gay friends were still in the bar. I looked at her, smiling, and said, that I would do so once I had finished my cigarette, and carried on smoking. I then dipped back into the bar, but was told that they had already left. I came back out and told GC that her friends had already left; she said that she hadn’t seen them leave (was that actually true?). She then suggested we go elsewhere for a drink, and said that she favoured a club.

    We moved on to another bar which was a bar-club hybrid – very trendy. She bought the first round of drinks and we talked, with general questions about her gay friends in the other bar, etc – all very harmless. We carried on talking, with me making strong eye contact and lightly caressing her back, and her turning full-on to face me. More comfort convo and rapport about her … She had been married twice before (both Frenchmen with high-profile jobs, two sons (one by each of them), high-drama divorces, etc. I pulled her in for a kiss, she acquiesced briefly then pushed me away. I smiled and laughed, and suggested we dance. We danced (lots of Motown classics, and some well-known 80s UK pop).

    Another drink (my round, this time), more kino, caressing her upper back and then sliding my arm around her hips, and another kiss – no resistance this time. More convo …. pulled her towards me for another kiss; she yielded then pushed me away as before. I smiled and told her that she was a tease, and suggested that we dance again.

    I broke off to say that I was heading outside for a smoke; she carried on dancing with some of the men and women on the dance-floor.

    :: Digression:

    While smoking outside, I noticed one of the barmaids on her break (I must have a thing for barmaids :-() ). Very cute, petite brunette in her early 20s. I asked here where she was from; she said Colombia. Usual routine of switching to Spanish, and asking her how long she had been in London and why. She had come to improve her English, etc.

    Then I ramped it up and asked whether she had to work all weekend – she did. What did she like to do for fun? She liked to dance. I asked her if she knew of a particular Salsa bar in south London, well-known for its salsa dancing. Her eyes widened.

    I moved into close, handed her my phone and told her to punch her number-in. Boom, name and number keyed-in. I told her I would get in touch and we would go dancing. She smiled and then told me that it ‘just be to dance’, as she had a boyfriend (ASD). I grinned at her and said, ‘Of course’. <\End of Digression>

    Back inside the bar, I found GC and we had another drink … more kissing. Then we left and she said we should grab a taxi. I asked her whether we would go to her place or mine; she said mine (one of her sons, although grown-up still lives with her). GC has superb legs for a woman of her age, and so I take every opportunity to stroke her thighs and knees discreetly on the taxi-ride back to my place.

    So, back to my place … and straight to it: I banged her a couple of times that night, and a couple more on waking-up next morning. Curiously, she was quite aggressive in bed, and not much for foreplay – although didn’t like to be handled roughly in return (I suspect a history of abuse, which is often the case with women who like to ‘dish it out’ but not ‘take it’ reciprocally).

    Saturday morning. We both shower, and she declares that she wants to buy me breakfast. We head back into town, as there is really only one place to eat near me, and she didn’t like the look of it. By the time we got into town, it was around lunchtime, and so she suggested a drink. She suggested a wine bar she knows (as do I) which has an excellent selection of good Spanish sherry. Lots of kissing / caressing as we walk there. (I have always been fine with public displays of affection (PDA), and this because I am half-Latin, but a lot of women in the UK – particularly English girls that I have known really don’t like it, and some object to it altogether.) She tells me that she enjoys kissing me and being caressed by me in public, and that she feels ‘safe’ with me. I smirk at her and, with a grin on my face reply: ‘Not TOO safe, I hope.’ She jokes back that I remind her of Hannibal Lecter [Silence of The Lambs], and I again joke that I haven’t ‘flayed her yet’.

    We arrive at the wine bar and drink sherry, which I choose – a light, dry Spanish sherry not usually available in the UK. It’s a nice day, and so we sit outside, sharing a table with another couple who have come to London on a day-trip. General chit-chat with the other couple, when the woman asks GC how long have GC and I been together as a couple. GC shoots me a glance and says ‘six months’; I nod. Eventually the other couple leave, and GC thanks me for following her lead. More conversation about her: her job, her two previous marriages, etc … and then the first barrage of shit-testing, which is inevitable with a mature woman (and one of the reasons i generally avoid them). She tells me that I am smart and good-looking, and that I could be doing so much better than I am, etc. I don’t react, other than to say that I have some irons in the fire, but don’t give her any specific details of what those are …

    It’s late afternoon – too late for lunch – and so she suggests lunch at one of her favourite French restaurants back in the Soho district. – her invitation It’s about a 10-minute walk, and so lots of kissing and caressing as we walk there … All very GF/BF behaviour.

    We arrive at the restaurant, where GC knows the female Maitre D’. All the staff are French (another language which I speak, so more catnip).

    We sit down and order, starting with a glass of champagne and some oysters – delicious. Cute French waitress comes to take our order, and I order in French. Look of astonishment on GC’s face, while cute waitress’s eyes pop out of her head and she places her left hand on my shoulder while she takes the order! In fact, for the rest of the meal, cute waitress managed to ‘accidentally’ either stroke my shoulder or ‘bump’ into me EVERY time she passed our table. (Note to self:Cute waitress is petite brunette in her early 20s with a tight body, so I may have to go back to the restaurant on the pretext of having dinner. :-)).

    GC passes comment on the fact that I can speak French, and that she hates Frenchmen having married two of them! I reply that I am not French, and that she already knows this, but that it shouldn’t come as a surprise to her, as there is clearly something about the French language and culture that she finds attractive; she agrees.

    The female Maitre D’ is finishing her shift and comes over to our table to say goodbye to GC. Cute waitress has told the Maitre D’ that I speak French, and so she turns to me and asks me in French whether I am, in fact French. I reply that I am not, but that my stepmother is. Maitre D’ hugs GC, and then hugs me, with an extra squeeze, while I kiss her on both cheeks (standard Gallic greeting / goodbye).

    It’s now about 6pm in the evening, and I am starting to fall asleep after Friday night / Saturday morning’s efforts and a long week. I tell GC that I am going to go home, and she goes off on one – THE shit-test of the day – and give me an ultimatum: It’s not for me to say when I am going to part company with her, and if I do so now, she will never see me again. I look up, tell her that I am tired, and that I am going home. I get up, move round the table, thank GC for lunch, kiss her, turn and walk out….

    Two messages follow from GC: ‘Thank you’ … and about 30 minutes later: ‘Great’.

    No reply from me, as I have resolved to soft next her, and not respond for a couple of days. @Palmasailor suggested pinging her back in view of this message (message exchange follows), as she ‘isn’t going anywhere’. Absolutely correct.

    Sunday message exchange:

    GC: ‘Apologies. I was a bitch last night. I can be a devil :-).’

    Me: GC, Apologies accepted. You are a fiery Greek-Cypriot woman, and so I expect nothing less 🙂 Let’s meet at the end of this coming week.’

    GC: ‘Cool, have a good week.’

    Me: ‘You, too. Let me know how you are fixed. ;-)’

    TantumErgo

  69. @TantumErgo – good FRs man.

    Some thoughts.

    FR 1:

    I had a hilarious near-identical conversation with a French girl years ago when she realized I knew that the University of Paris 2 was called Assas, because most people have only heard of the Sorbonne (Paris 1).

    Basically what Palma said on this. You didn’t have enough attraction (therefore did not get an IOI), therefore your escalation (in this case asking for a number) did not work. You needed to DHV a lot more and get IOIs before going for the close. You did DHV a bit with fluent Spanish etc, but probably not enough in a city like London where Spanish is probably relatively common. But good effort on opening her and chatting her up.

    You need to look at that DHV/IOI/IOD loop graphic based on Mystery Method that Sentient posts all the time – it’s actually a lot simpler than it looks on the graphic, and just follow it. If you’re really new, there’s no harm trying for a close “for the practice”, to get used to it and lose the fear, but beyond a point when you can read women and IOIs and attraction better, there’s no point going for a close if the attraction is not there..

    FR 2:

    Where’s the emotional spikes/emotional rollercoaster/attraction stuff/DHV? This sounds like a polite chat at a dinner party.

    It’s not about the subject matter, it’s about the emotional spike from it. If the subject is Brexit (analogous to Trump in the States), the game is not a discussion about the economic impact of Brexit (or Trump’s policies) – it’s going (while smirking and solid eye contact) “Yeah, I think Brexit is a great idea – we can finally throw all you foreigners out of the country..” – optional (if you have enough of a flirty frame to pull it off) add “…we may keep a few girls behind as the spoils of war..” and ogle the girl up and down. Replace “Brexit” with “Trump” as appropriate in the States (or indeed gilets jaunes in France, or that Bolsonaro guy in Brazil or whatever – it’s basically the same move whatever name is used).

    Same basic issue as FR 1: not enough attraction because not enough emotional stimulation or DHV (also some minor points that don’t need to be addressed right now – did you ever target one girl and make it clear she was the target? Was there ever an SOI or sexualizing the conversation? I would also never do a Facebook close etc. Stuff like that – but better to deal with the primary issue first)

    FR 3:

    Much better in terms of sexualizing and kino, but still not enough attraction (you clearly had some though or she wouldn’t have let you kino her – if you’d gone for the number close you’d have probably got it). Comfort comes AFTER attraction (and finding commonalities/shared interests is COMFORT). You need to get the attraction first. Again, minor tactical issues re the potential number close but that’s not the core issue. Also, given the women were older here, your passive value is higher to start with (as opposed to the mid 20s girls who have more options) – so it’s an easier road for you.

    FR 4:

    This is what we call a “Fool’s Mate” – she was attracted to you as soon as she saw you, and hugely attracted at that (enough to be very “overt” and approach you more than once) so you didn’t have the same attraction issues as the previous FRs. Still – congratulations on pulling it off and not fucking it up (and I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically – my very first SNL was very similar to this one many years ago and that came after at least half a dozen similar fools mate opportunities in the previous three years which were guaranteed lays being offered up to me and I managed to screw those up which are still sore memories more than a decade later – so it’s actually harder than you might think to not fuck up if you’re new).

    Good practice in the “process”. Now you just need to take a girl who isn’t immediately into you, and get her attracted enough to get to the same place as FR 4…

    BTW an aside – you got away with it this time (partly luck and partly her attraction to you was high), but it is a BAD idea to leave a woman alone in the club/dance floor like this while you go for a smoke – with her buying temperature up and her horny, it would have been really easy for someone else to swoop in and pull her. If you’re going to pull a girl, you stick to her (especially when her buying temp is high in the later stages)

    On the digression: Good, but again you didn’t really do much in the way of attraction – you just got lucky that she happened to like you and your vibe enough to have enough attraction to number close. Also, the boyfriend means she is a high-probability flake when she forgets the emotions she felt talking to you. But if she DOES turn up for a date, your chances of banging her are very high (just make sure your logistics are solid).

    Don’t have time to break down the text message and post-bang spending the day with her stuff – will only say, be VERY careful not to get hammered into “boyfriend” mode (unless you want that) – as HABD would say that is deeply going into her frame. You are almost there already after spending the day doing romantic stuff with her..

    PS – How old are you Tantum? I know Palma is in his 50s. Being older (as you know) won’t prevent you from getting younger girls, but you need to be aware of the image you’re presenting about yourself and test for congruence (for example, @j posts pretty good fashion advice for a 25 year old going to nightclubs – but that won’t work for you).

    PPS – This wasn’t lengthy – you haven’t seen my FRs have you? :))

    1. @ wahoo McDaniels

      FR1#

      “Her “Por que?”

      Tantum “Estoy muy caliente””

      Yes!!

      So why weren’t you with @Palmsailor and me last Friday? LOL. 😁

      TantumErgo

  70. @TantumErgo

    Great to read about you out in the field. Not many men do that and hardly any your age.

    Some points for you to look into for future ventures.
    Look at these elements peppered into your interaction (who’s on the hunt and who’s the prey?):

    she asked me to go back in and see if her two gay friends were still in the bar

    Which you do… for free… missed the opportunity to test her frame and ask her to do something for you first. Her hindbrain would have registered a different Tantum.

    She then suggested we go elsewhere for a drink, and said that she favoured a club.

    She leads, you follow… mind you, to go with is not necessarily a bad thing, but not taking the lead later on is a big tell for them.

    we talked […] all very harmless […] More comfort convo and rapport about her

    See Mystery Method sequencing mistake #2, The Nice Guy. Have you read the book yet?

    I pulled her in for a kiss, she acquiesced briefly then pushed me away.

    She knows she controls the interaction. Make her work for your affection, you want to see the roles swap.

    pulled her towards me for another kiss; she yielded then pushed me away as before.

    As above. This is also a great diagnostic tool. Not enough attraction.

    I broke off to say that I was heading outside for a smoke; she carried on dancing with some of the men and women on the dance-floor.

    So you didn’t intend to pull? Still not leading.

    she said we should grab a taxi.

    Do you see a pattern here?

    I asked her whether we would go to her place or mine

    Logistics up front broski. You’ve spent how many hours with her by this point? It’s your job to know where to take her.

    So, back to my place … and straight to it: I banged her a couple of times that night, and a couple more on waking-up next morning.

    You horndog! Good!

    Curiously, she was quite aggressive in bed, and not much for foreplay – although didn’t like to be handled roughly in return

    Guess why… the lioness doesn’t like prey to be rough with her. Do as she says and scratch that itch.

    (I suspect a history of abuse, which is often the case with women who like to ‘dish it out’ but not ‘take it’ reciprocally).

    You may want to rethink that. Because women never return to bad boys.

    she declares that she wants to buy me breakfast

    I don’t know, are you skipping some details when you tell her what will happen next and what you want to do?

    only one place to eat near me, and she didn’t like the look of it

    Where’s SFC Ton with the story of his girls completely dolled up to go to a cheap fast food place with him?

    she suggested a drink. She suggested a wine bar she knows

    Oh man. I’m starting to suspect your body was required to reenact her dream date experience. Just don’t piss her off when you finally say you want to go home.

    She tells me that […] she feels ‘safe’ with me

    Because you’re not a sexual threat?

    GC thanks me for following her lead

    Can she be more obvious?

    More conversation about her: her job, her two previous marriages, etc … and then the first barrage of shit-testing, which is inevitable with a mature woman

    You thought you could have a nice date with her at the steering wheel? Her hamster kicks in.

    She tells me that I am smart and good-looking, and that I could be doing so much better than I am, etc.

    She wants you to step up and own your shit more, starting from this interaction.

    I don’t react, other than to say that I have some irons in the fire

    Not sure about “don’t react”, but you missed her poking a hole in you. Test not passed… unless you wanted to qualify as beta?

    she suggests lunch at one of her favourite French restaurants

    Come on broski, stop her from moving you around all the time.

    It’s now about 6pm in the evening, and I am starting to fall asleep after Friday night / Saturday morning’s efforts and a long week. I tell GC that I am going to go home, and she goes off on one – THE shit-test of the day – and give me an ultimatum: It’s not for me to say when I am going to part company with her, and if I do so now, she will never see me again.

    This should tell you everything about her, this interaction and the hole you dug yourself into.

    I look up, tell her that I am tired, and that I am going home. I get up, move round the table, thank GC for lunch, kiss her, turn and walk out….

    Great that you left (but only because you were tired??). Why rewarding her behavior with a kiss though?

    GC: ‘Apologies. I was a bitch last night. I can be a devil :-).’

    You leaving and not responding worked just enough….

    Me: GC, Apologies accepted. You are a fiery Greek-Cypriot woman, and so I expect nothing less smile Let’s meet at the end of this coming week.’

    Where’s “you need to make it up show up wearing X”? Next time don’t justify her behavior, she’ll do it herself. Keep her to a higher standard. Your way or the highway.

    GC: ‘Cool, have a good week.’

    She’s not suggesting anything? Oh apparently absolution is all she needed.

    Me: ‘You, too. Let me know how you are fixed. ;-)’

    No, no. You’ll let her know when you want her to join you.

    As for the other interactions, I have a feeling the mysterious man who’s been places angle may suit you best. It’s great and will stand out, especially with younger girls. However, being a sexual threat and playing the game with them is something that shouldn’t be left out, otherwise you’re just a friendly traveler. If you want to be their fantasy, don’t go into comfort first, make them earn it. Attraction, only then comfort (read Mystery Method).

    Have a look at this clip and see if this style suits you (note the difference between what is being said and what is being communicated):

  71. @ Marquis

    ” it’s hard for me to think of my wife in such cold dispassionate terms.”

    Tough-love is tough for a reason. Otherwise we’d say tough-like.

    Love is eternal, creative and perpetuating. Love is a fixed purity, dispassionate and certain. It is correct, righteous, in a meaningful way.

    Like is a preference, variable, fueled by emotion and uncertainty. It may be correct in its meaning, intent and execution…maybe not. Here we risk failure to ourselves and others, blowing around in the winds of emotion.

    “Wie gefaellt’s Ihnen?” is German for “How do you like it?” Literally translated It is “How does it feel to you?” Feelings are fine though let’s agree they’re subject to the law of diminishing returns. Truth is accurate in all ways and always.

    I’d never deny a person their preferences. Some girls like their cucumbers raw. Some girls like them pickled. Though to claim one is better than another is futile.

    What is true about you, your marriage and children: It is your most overt display of meaning. It is not you but a product of your sensibilities. Your character is mostly judged how you handle your wife and kids, which is another way of saying how you handle yourself.

  72. Tantum

    Good stuff man. You can be a killer if you tighten up a little bit…

    How much capital G Game have you gotten into? Have you read Mystery Method? And importantly – have you watched the many seminars online where Mystery expands on things? There are also a number of good ones by Matador and LoveDrop on body language and kino btw…

    The good stuff –

    Obvi you are solid at opening, at least in respect to approach anxiety and you can carry on a conversation. I suspect you are above average looking and note the cream pinstripe jacket… which is great you will get IOIs from this, but the flip side is you have to work at avoiding putting yourself in “The Most Perfect Beta Bux BF in THE WORLD” category… cause they are all going to want that. Which makes the boys notes on focusing on ATTRACTION that much more important.

    Really good notes from the guys btw. IRL posts my FAVORITE open clip… lol

    Other good, instead of “calling it a night” you PUSHED that last bar [Culum…] and there is a lot of good that comes in that space. Good stuff doing the work and great job of seeing it through [despite not leading much].

    This is all great to work off of…

    Stuff to watch/improve on –

    Go deeper on the technical… I think you need to focus on what DHV means to HER in situ… and not what you think it means. And get a better understanding of ASD.

    ASD is most commonly her trying to SLOW herself down, OR because she thinks you are BEST BF EVA material tries to make YOU think she isn’t JUST a slut. There are other aspects (i.e. social consequences etc.) but these are the MAIN drivers.

    The IHABF stuff – I see it as a diagnostic… IF she says it first WITHOUT you suggesting anything ( a drink, change venue, dates, numbers etc.) it’s an IOI… She is playing the “well I told him so I can’t be blamed if it happens” card… If she says it in response to your IOI, it’s an IOD or shit test…

    I never ask about their status [which is different from logistics queries like “who are you here with” or “how do you know each other”] so I don’t lose the diagnostic… also I know if she’s bangable she’s banging some body… lol

    Kino as well, diagnostic, not to build sexual tension (yes later it can but early on it’s more diagnostic) and what you are looking for is not “what will she let ME do” but what is SHE doing back… That’s the tell.

    Commonality – a double edged sword… it feels good because it establishes a connection “oh you know XYZ as well!” BUT right after that there is a lull, because it blunts excitement and attraction… You are better served just touching on things like her school, to show you are well traveled etc. but THEN switch to an emotional or sexual story which might involve that location. And use THAT for building up attraction…

    DHV’s are not what we think they are as men…

    “The Most Interesting Man in the World” game… Be careful here. Try not to fall in love with yourself 😉 I say this as a fellow traveler… You are going to get more mileage out of stuff like ou 20 YO hot Russian former GF being crazy jealous than where you have been and what you have done and what you can speak…

    Let that stuff come out in subcomms, not being to excitable, off hand remarks etc…

    Good luck….

  73. Oh and congrats boys on the London Red Pill Summit producing 100% more lay reports than Poland…

    Aside – update on PussyGrinder… Not going into a lot of detail.. but to test my feeling… sent a text : Hey. Your husband around?

    and BOOM! she was all LOL… OMG!!! he is right here… I had a follow up that was innocuous to blunt the edge, but that cat jumped out of the bag.. lol…

  74. “you PUSHED that last bar”

    There are guys who recommend bailing unless there are overt IOI’s.

    Persevering in the absence of IOI isn’t totally unwarranted.

    An absence of her overt IOI isn’t a IOD. There’s no reason to assume she didn’t want your number until she said “no”. It’s a good practice to efficiently move the conversation along…which you did.

    A lot of guys assume without an overt declaration of IOI there’s no point in opening or pushing the bar of expectation. Sentient is aggressive in his approaches and doesn’t back down in uncomfortable shit testing. Formidable frame under withering remarks and shit testing is the gold standard and assumes the sale.

    Flame-outs are common in game and having fun with it is half the battle.

  75. Good points Eh. To clarify – what I meant by “pushing” the last bar, the one with the greek, was that it was late, the bar was closing etc. It would be easy to go home. But so often there is gold waiting to be picked up… They do call it “golden hour”… even post golden hour can be golden…

  76. “golden hour”

    Anecdote….

    A buddy and I are downhill skiing. We’re at an apres ski party in the main resort. I pick up a woman and left to bang

    I forgot to hand off the hotel key to my buddy. He’s sleeps in the hotel lobby until he’s kicked out

    He wanders up to the room and is hanging out, sitting with his back against the door at 2AM waiting, pissed.

    A girl walks up and chats with him. At some point she asks if he’ll come back to her room to fuck. Just like that. No joke.

    He popped his cherry that night and wasn’t too bothered no more about my horny absentmindedness.

    We laughed about that for years.

  77. The options being some sort of substance abuse. There isn’t a substance that I haven’t abused at some point. That turned out to be the best form of self medication ,walking in bitter creek. Just lucky to come out the other side in one piece.

    “In hindsight I contained the ex wife until the 2009 banking crisis at which point she pinged me for weakness when I was at my wits end. The shit tests went nuclear after I failed one after another, but here’s the thing, I woke up one morning after a nuclear fall out and told her I wasn’t taking any more shit from her and I went.”

    The beast is hungry. No most men turn the frame against themselves,doubling down on pleasing the beast.
    It is as if once she makes the wrong hypergamous choice then she needs to kill the ex to justify her actions. Patience ain’t womens strong suit nor is helping their mates. We have to somehow make them think it’ their idea.

    If we could save our sons the same pains(and I know Rollo is giving it his best shot) that would be grand. There are some things that fall under destiny.

  78. @Palma

    Boundaries are good to have set,I finally learned to draw the line at physical contact. Abuse from a primary care giver leaves out boundaries. The way things read if it is patriarchal abuse thats believable and will garner sympathy, if on the other hand it is matriarchal abuse then you must have done something real bad to deserve it. basically I am on my own,may as well get used to it.

    I run to extremes ,I am extremely sober at the moment and have been for years. And have a tendency to go all in on people and then write them off like bad debt.

  79. @TantumErgo

    +1 on IRL’s analysis…

    i could add some more detail, but the basic idea is that she has you fitted for your shiny armor… AND the bit and saddle…lol…

    but in spite of that^^^ you are actually doing great!… and props for getting in the field… especially that solo at the end of the night… like @Sentient says it is really easy to just call it bc your wing went home…

    IF… and that’s a big IF bc she is 55…lol… if you want to turn it around with the GC, you are going to need a game plan… then execute… with YOU leading and handling her shit tests… which will be massive…lol… she already thinks (her hindbrain) that she has locked onto a beta provider… which is what she needs a LOT more than a AF stud at this point in her life… so, she is going to be pushing you hard to get back into/stay in that role… overall, it’s going to be a GREAT opportunity to practice your big G Game chops…lol… but you’ll need a game plan up front… so you know your default actions in situ… bc that saves having to make those decisions in real time… where you might waffle about being ‘nice’… v ‘sexy’ (bad boy)…lol

    re the FR 1 waitress… that measured head shake was a shit test… especially if she was holding EC… (hard to tell body language cues from a FR…)… it was just too early in the interaction to hit her with that much of a compliance request…

    but i always recommend trying to turn around ‘bad sets’ (not that this was bad… it was just ‘unfinished’…)… so make a plan and then execute… easy, peasy…lol

    good luck!

  80. @palmasailor

    Instantly I was hit with more shit and every form of blackmail she had in the Rolodex. I just said no and walked. Before long she was begging but by now I’d had it. She was beside herself in pieces.

    I reckon most men could swap the frame of their marriages like that.

    that’s the only way is actually works… you have to be willing (and mentally there) to just leave… and then just ‘don’t get divorced’… if you want to stay married anyway…lol

    but the more you ‘want’ to stay (which is BP… and a frame shift away from yourself) and ‘make it work’ the worse off you get… that’s how i figured out that guard dog situ spinup sh*t…lol…

    Actually he’s 16, and he wrote a longer letter to the court than any piece of homework he’s ever done. It was basically her standing over him.

    I nearly wrote an essay about what happened with my son but tl;dr he needs to grow some balls, he’s out of my influence and won’t even accept my calls.

    sorry to hear about your situ with your son…

    i just want to point this out (bc it doesn’t seem to come through in your comments that you are understanding this) but it is really hard for kids stuck in these situs to have ANY way to feel safe…

    ESPECIALLY if mom is a b*tch…

    so, just expecting him to ‘grow some balls’ might be a little unrealistic… even if he is 16… at least without some guidance/intervention from you (or another man intervening on his behalf with his mom… which is unlikely…)… and his ‘not taking your calls’ (or writing that letter) has more to do with your ex than it does with your son… or you…

    if he was trapped in a north korean prison and had to write that letter to avoid being executed, would you hold it against him?… or would you sympathize with his situ?… serious questions… bc to kids, that’s about what their situs are like… not kidding…

    don’t you think that HE got/is getting the brunt of her anger towards his ‘*sshole father’?… he is just being used as a pawn… he isn’t the first kid in that situ… sooo, except for identifying with mom/doing what she wants, how else can he ‘keep himself safe’?…

    and what are you willing to do to help him?… do you even want to at this point?…

    Long and short of it is that he is the only remaining mechanism she has to punish me.

    and what does her using that ‘mechanism’ do to him?… serious question… bc every time she criticizes you, she is criticizing one half of HIM… most parents don’t get that idea… or they really don’t care…

    it’s not really all about YOU getting beat up by the system… HE is getting pounded by that same system too… even if he is too young/inexperienced to understand that idea…

    She’ll be hell to live with and eventually he’ll have enough. That’s the plan.

    when can he legally leave?… and what are his options?… and is there anything you can do now that will help him where he is now… and maybe improve your potential relationship with him when that happens?… and do you even want that?…

    good luck!

  81. @wahoo McDaniels

    I run to extremes ,I am extremely sober at the moment and have been for years.

    props!!!… that sh*t ain’t easy… but it is worthwhile…

    good luck!

  82. “bc every time she criticizes you, she is criticizing one half of HIM… most parents don’t get that idea… or they really don’t care…”

    This ^ is a fact, when he loses respect for his tribe of origin his identity is gone. This tends to the worst.

  83. @HABD or anyone else

    Hey HABD,
    I have seen you mention the guard dog spinup situ many times but havent seen it used by anyone else in these parts of town and don’t get it from context. Would you mind explaining it in short?

  84. @Palma Tantum I accidentally discovered a way to get a girls hamster spinning without saying a word.

    I sent a WhatsApp message to the wrong girl and then deleted it. It appears as “message deleted” in her messages.

    The girl immediately began madly texting wanting to know what I said and then ended up reconnecting to meet up.

    Try it….send a message and then within1 minute delete it. Watch the fireworks.

    1. @walawala
      @Palmsailor

      “I sent a WhatsApp message to the wrong girl and then deleted it. It appears as “message deleted” in her messages.

      The girl immediately began madly texting wanting to know what I said and then ended up reconnecting to meet up.

      Try it….send a message and then within1 minute delete it. Watch the fireworks”

      I really like this — and I have a couple of targets in mind…

      @walawala

      Presumably at no stage did you even attempt to justify the deleted message, but rather brush it aside and go straight for the meet? I ask as a newbie. 😊

      TantumErgo

  85. @walawala

    Nice! I use this open loop concept infield to great effect. I alternate between leaving them open, by side stepping her inquiries into things she wants to know more detail about (“nah don’t worry about it. its not important.” “nah i’ll tell you later” etc) (but never closing them) and closing them, by answering the bait I threw at her, by DHVing myself. By alternating between the two, it always leaves her unsure of what I’ll do.

    @Sentient

    P O W E R F U L neg.

    lol.

    but seriously. ya because 1st world is ALWAYS higher quality than 3rd world (I banged one of them while she was here in america)

    http://img4.bdbphotos.com/images/700×350/2/g/2g0qgoa0a5v44oa.jpg

    Don’t think I’d take ANY of Ruby’s girls (not even Marilyn) over my 20 year old and 2(?) year old girls.

  86. @j these accidental situations often can be worked into something that becomes more natural.

    The kitten-string idea can be worked out in ways you describe.

  87. @Johann

    How do you feel when you know a girl you banged yesterday banging some other guy today?

    If it’s a plate, honestly, I don’t care. I just don’t want to know. The girls are usually smart enough not to bring it up and I don’t ask. There’s truly no strings attached.

    If it’s a girl that I’ve been seeing and am interested in pursuing and I find this out…I dump her immediately. I don’t explain, I just ghost her.

  88. @ Sentient
    @ Calum Struan
    @ Wahoo McDaniels
    @ IRL
    @ Palmasailor

    :: London Summit – 26th July – Field Reports ::

    Gentlemen

    Many thanks for your considered analysis and feedback, which is much appreciated 🙂

    There is a lot for me digest here, and I will endeavour to get back to you on your individual responses as soon as I can.

    The short-and-ugly of it is that, while I have never usually had any trouble getting women – doing so according to a tight game-plan is STILL new to me, and I am here to learn.

    None of last Friday’s fun would have been possible without the excellent company of @Palmasailor 🙂 And the main thing is that I had FUN and didn’t care about the outcome – win, lose or draw. That represents a real change in my attitude from just a few months ago.

    @ Sentient

    “You can be a killer if you tighten up a little bit…”

    I aim to be with more practice – have now obtained Mystery Method as a starter.

    :: Update on FR 4 – Greek-Cypriot “GC” (55) ::

    Took some good advice from Palma, and played the ‘I am cooking gambit’ – here’s how the exchange of messages has run:

    GC: On my way to work, feeling surprisingly fresh considering. I don’t know where I get the energy from at my age 😂

    Me: Glad you are feeling energised. I reckon it’s your hot Latin blood. 😉 Let’s meet on Friday. x

    GC: Ok x

    Me: Hello, gorgeous – hope you working week is going well …😘 Come round to my place on Friday evening – I will cook. 🙂 x

    GC: That’s a lovely gesture, I like a man that can cook 😊. I will have to decline, as I was planning to go home on Friday after seeing you.
    I have plans for Saturday morning. XX

    Me: Very well — Catch you next time. xx

    GC: X

    So, as Palma has already mentioned, she is angling hard for the BF/GF lock-down – without having to bang me again – my having already made this far too easy for her last weekend. But, I am going to let it ride and see if she folds …If she does, the plan is to bang her first and then feed her afterwards. She isn’t going to hang around on Saturday morning anyway. If she doesn’t fold and holds out (2 x bangs are the magic number), then I will leave it until next week – but may well leave it to her to initiate, as ‘less is more’, and it can only help me if she thinks that I have other options … which I intend to work on.

    TantumErgo

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