Field Reports

lion-chasing-gazelle

For the past three years of The Rational Male there’s been a consistent presence in the comment threads of guys seeking advice for particular situations with regards to Game. Whether it’s fine tuning certain aspects of Game or a larger consensus of the guys participating in my comment threads it’s become obvious there’s a need for a dedicated page and comment thread to address these Field Reports.

So I’m instituting this page for exactly this. If there is some urgency to have members of The Rational Male community analyze your particular situation feel free to hit anyone up in the comments of my current post, but please refer them to your particular field report with a link to your comment here. I’m hoping this will alleviate the mass of posts for field report analysis and Game specific insights piled into the main blog post for any given week.

There will be some rules for this “forum” as such. I ask that you only keep your comments to addressing the field reports at hand and save your larger theoretical stuff for the main posts, or if relevant, keep the “bigger scope of things” posts to being as succinct as possible. There will be no moderation in this comment thread (spamming excepted), so realize it will be a very hot kitchen before you post. I will impose no restrictions on video links here, nor will I limit links to various, but pertinent articles.

Understand, this is an experiment for now. It’s likely this comment thread will exceed thousands of comments. I’ll be instituting new comment plug-ins for wordpress to deal with this in the future, but I may archive this page the the posts and refresh this page in the future as well. If this gets cumbersome I may simply institute a dedicated forum-style sub-site of The Rational Male to accommodate for Game specific questions.

So have at it, post your field reports and feel free to comment on the ones you have some particular insight for. Be forewarned that it’s likely things may get a bit salty at times and I expect a lot of back & forth with debate and disagreements, but that’s what this thread is for – to hash out Game particulars for your given situations.

 

15,806 comments on “Field Reports

  1. EhIntellect
    She’s a horrible liar, at least overtly. She’ll explain away the most stupid behaviors, but here, I believe her when she claims amnesia. She’s can’t be trusted with facts.

    It’s the “right now” thing. When she was all up in your face saying whatever she was saying to get a reaction from you, all that stuff was true at that moment, but later when she simmered down and realized she’d likely pushed you too far, it wasn’t “true” anymore, so … it had to have not happened. Hence the “don’t remember” which is really just a flip side of in-the-moment sex that “just happened”, by the way.

    Contra what Blue PIll pedestalizer Deida and his groupies say, women can and do lie. They lie to themselves first, in order to rationalize their own actions, then they lie to others. Painful though it may be to you in that moment, realize that all that torrent of words is no more significant than some 5 year old that’s up past bedtime screaming “I HATE YOU” or a 2 year old slapping you. It’s just the nature of the person and the situation.

    Question: where is she in the whold perimenopause / menopause zone? Because years ago as a teenager I watched relatives having ugly stuff like this, and it turned out the woman was smack in the middle of menopause, which has been described as “years of PMS”. Some women will take their emotional roller coaster to much higher highs and much lower lows in the menopausal and premenopausal years. They also really do get forgetful – short term memory does decay a bit. If she’s in that phase, maybe you should consult with some doc you know about a little hormone testing and adjustment, EhIntellect, if you know any that you really trust.

  2. Oh, yeah, by the way: this whole “building tension” followed by “explosion” followed by “make up” followe by “pseudonormality” cycle is what abusive situations look like. There was a couple in the area who apparently followed an amped up version of this script until she stabbed him with something and eventually he died. The cops never did find what she stabbed him with, but she did wind up in prison for a while. More relevant, he’s still dead. No children, though, so that aspect of damage wasn’t a factor.

    You do have children, EhIntellect, and they don’t deserve to wind up in foster care. Nobody does, really, but yours for sure don’t deserve that. Seriously, get blood work done on her and see what’s what inside at the biological level. Other men have given you all the advice I could, and better, so all I can say is “Smack those shit tests hard and fast when they show”.

  3. @EhIntellect and Anonymous Reader

    Just so were on the same page. I agree that Deida is Blue Pill in Alpha’s clothing. Hence why I always ask someone to translate his writing which is somewhat gay, new-age-like. A red pill awareness guy (us) can spot this female behavior in the woman as a lie, and treat the Deida description, which is apt as a metaphor for the 5 year old girl in her. In other words, we can accept red pill truths about women’s duplicity. In other words I don’t disagree with Anon’s comment @ 2:54 pm.

    The important thing is what to do about it. EhIntellect is doing great in the strategy and enthusiasm department of married red pill. And the important thing is to move to more Trusted Alpha (T.M.), to have his wife be trusting of his congruence with that Alpha. So she believes him when he says No Big Deal, I got this Babe and you and the kids will be safe with me. He’s still having Frame Battles because of the need for optimal tactics and praxeology (what works).

    This married red pill game is not ideology (Deida is Idiologic, but he does red pill awareness of how men and women are designed mostly right–how the fuck would he be sidebar material at MRP reddit otherwise, those guys are tough), it’s praxeology that EhIntellect can pick and choose from and keep along the learning curve of mastery.

    Part of why I feel qualified to comment on his field reports is that I have been there and done that. I’ve been in his shoes and am in a good place right now with MRP and Game. I know what she’s feeling and I know how he is feeling. And I know that the married red pill game process works.

    The best newest and distilled process for MRP is BluePillProfessors reddit work and book (he was able to scrape Purple off of Athol Kay and he is dyed-in-the-wool red pill.

    The best thing ever is that EhIntellect’s situation is not low sex. That is a great start well begun that is at least 2/3rds done. If he can amp up her trust for him to be congruent Alpha, the normal practice of soft dread will be more effective. And HABD did a great job of describing rewarding good behavior, but being careful to actually set limits and not reward bad behavior.

    This idea of violence is a factor, but it could be worse. She could be indifferent. He just has to discriminate whether he has actually gotten rid of past contempt issues and make sure that issue is resolved going forward.

  4. FR

    I was going on my usual walk and I spotted in the distance a Chinese girl that I had weaseled out of talking to at least 2-3 times on this particular route. I’m short-sighted but I knew it was her even before I was close enough to confirm that it was.

    The last time I passed her was pretty much in the same spot maybe 10 meters difference.

    The girl has no idea the kind of self-talk that is going on inside you of course but for me the feeling inside was you have to open her this time. No excuses.

    I was trying to force an IOI walking a bit closer to her and looking in her eyes but she didn’t turn her face and kept a neutral expression while staring ahead. She had ear buds in and was listening to something.

    I didn’t immediately stop her I let her walk past her a few steps and stopped. Strangely this time I didn’t feel any anxiety. There wasn’t any negative self-talk. I turned around ran a few steps and approached her from the right side with my hands up indicating her to stop.

    “Excuse me *she takes ear buds out* Do you speak English?”

    “I saw you walk past, thought you were cute and wanted to say hi.”

    Her eyes were lit up now and she was giving me a lot of eye contact.

    “What’s your name”

    I shook her hand and we exchanged names.

    “You must be a student right? On your way to class.”

    She nodded

    “Do you have to time to talk then?”

    She looked at her phone and said yes she does. Was about 30 minutes until her class started.

    “So where are you from? How long have you been in Australia? What are you studying, etc.”

    I thought she was Japanese she looked very similar to a girl that I liked a bit too much.. so I was surprised when she said Chinese. Been here for 1.5 years and studying advertising.

    “Do you have a boyfriend?”

    I kind of hesitated here, I didn’t quite think it through. I wasn’t going to instantly eject if she said she had a boyfriend but I kind of went blank for a second when she said yes.

    “Are you happy?”

    She didn’t answer that but I didn’t give her much time.

    “How long have you been together?”

    She said it was 2 months. Then she had this comment “there’s always friends”.

    I kind of ignored the friend comment but said we should hang out sometime and got her number. She still seemed happy, smiling with a lot of eye contact.

    “How old are you?”

    She said she was 22. I asked how old she thought I was and she guessed 26-27. Only 1-2 years off not bad.

    “I’ve seen you walking this way before did you recognize me?”

    The last time I saw her I was making very direct eye contact and she was kind of looking down while smiling.

    She said that no because she has trouble recognizing foreigners (white guys) because they look very similar. I found this funny because that’s what most white people say about Asians.

    “You don’t make eye contact with strangers while walking down the street?”

    I leaned in here put my hand on her shoulder and was pointing down the street.

    She said yes she does but not always.

    I said I’ll let you go and waved her off.

    I realize I was a bit nervous and didn’t leave any room for her to ask about me to ground the set, so it was very one-sided but I felt it didn’t matter too much because the sub-communication was good. Seemed like a nice vibe and we had fairly intense eye contact for most of the time.

    The problem is she is my only lead right now. I’m not afraid of showing intent these days and am willing to walk but neediness has always ruined me.

  5. @Adam

    First thing you need to do mate….Is get more leads.

    It’ll all fall in place buddy but right now you’re outcome dependent af. So find more wimminz

  6. TheMarquis

    Welcome back man. Travelling so just a short note. Handle your shit (debt, complaining, weakness etc) because all that beta is going to hold you back. You are otherwise in the middle of a frame battle for relationship dominance. You are working with enough that she is starting to respond – by knocking you back in your beta box. Keep going, but for authentic alpha to register you need to work more on you right now and less on gaming her. Get to that place.

  7. @Eh

    She ever seen your violent side? Ever seen you kill something or beat the hell out of someone?

    We used to have a pecan tree and if you let them, the damn squirrels will take *all* the pecans, leaving none for me. Fuck them, it’s my tree. Must’ve shot dozens over the years and I made sure to leave the carcasses visible before tossing just to let it be known (great dog toy too). Subtle, and not exactly something I’d brag about to my buddies, but she knows I will kill and not sweat it.

    One time I was trying to get a weed eater working again. A small-ticket item taking 4 hours of my time and enough was enough. No shit, I snapped. To me, it felt great to relieve all that frustration by cavemanning that pos into a thousand ill-made parts. To her (and my boy), it must’ve been quite the eye-opener to see daddy in a primal kill rage.

    I know these won’t qualify me for any tough man contest. The point is that sometimes my beneficiaries need to see/know that my veneer is a choice and if pressed, there are other tools at my disposal if I so choose to use them.

  8. Another subtle thing I do…. start using “I/me/mine” more and less of “we/us/ours.” But not overtly… more in passing while telling a story or the like.

    “… if that bastard tried that in MY house….” vs “… if that bastard tried that in OUR house…”

    It needs to be more of an indirect indicator of your mental point of origin (MPO) than some conspicuous assertion of possession. The latter invites pushback while the former assumes your dominance.

  9. Sentient

    Much thanks. I’ll keep that in mind. I’ll maintain things with my wife but the focus needs to be on improving myself for a few months. The money will take longer – although I do have a plan – but I can see results with the fitness and attitude much quicker.

    I realised recently – she often talks about how she doesn’t want to lose me and things like that. But that just means she doesn’t want to lose me as her beta provider. Not a question of losing her alpha. That’s not to say there isn’t some alpha sprinkled in there. Once in a long while she’s said stuff like how I’m the “love of her life” – but mostly it’s a beta.

  10. @Ehintellect

    Withdrawing attention begat more rage. Withdrawing attention begat sexy time.

    since YaReally hasn’t been around, i will point out that you getting two different results from the same input behavior means that you are not understanding the dynamic in play… you need to drill deeper into the interaction (to get to the diamond core principles), bc the results SHOULD be the same… IF you actually understand what’s going on… and are consistently applying the same behavior…

    so, when you ‘withdraw attention’ and get two different results, you are likely focused on the wrong things… and this is likely bc you are in her frame (which puts you at an observational disadvantage… kind of like trying to see what’s behind you in a fun-house mirror…lol)… if you were in your frame, it’s easier to see cause/effect play out wrt her behavior…

    i hate to point this out (bc you have been getting lots of sex…lol) but it’s possible that you are pinging her AF algorithm ‘enough’ to get that sex, but still stuck in majority BB (FI/BP/disney fantasy) relationship… it’s REALLY easy to do that… ask me how i know…lol… but it really does create problems… which interestingly enough looks like an ‘abuse’ situ spinning up…lol… (it took me a while to figure this one out… so pay attention and profit from my pain…lol… i didn’t actually get knifed though, but it was on the tentative agenda for the next ‘cycle’…lol… but not kidding…)

    the ‘problem’ (from her hindbrain’s perspective… and the ‘why’ of abusive situs…) is that she can’t ever really KNOW who you are going to ‘be’ on any given day… and that inconsistency creates the cycle…

    you swallow some RP… you figure out ‘girls’… apply that in situ… start getting lots of sex… and then just coast…lol… right back into your prior BB patterns… BUUUT… with enough residual AF to create chaos in her hindbrain/hamster…lol… so her hindbrain goes crazy trying to pin down an actual expectation for your interactions… remember it’s AF… OR… BB… and it literally can NOT be both at the same time… and what girls (hindbrain) expect is that men are not ‘dual commodities’… they expect AF OR BB (on a bell curve distro spectrum)… and not varying amounts both in the same man…

    and while you CAN be both to the same girl, that’s only a mental model really…, it’s more like you HAVE to be AF all the time… with provisioning just thrown in…lol… and as modified by ‘calibration’… which actually is BB behavior, but if that behavior is ‘random’, her hindbrain will create that ‘abuse cycle’ (which is just her running her WHOLE rolodex EVERY interaction…lol) to shit test the boundaries of ‘you’… and bc your behavior is not based on your ‘mindset’ (ie unconscious competence) it pings as inconsistent, so she has to test you more…and more… and more… lol…

    bc sometimes you pass the shit test… and sometimes you fail… and bc you are not responding consistently, SHE (her hindbrain) has to keep digging for YOUR diamond core principles that are always true…

    and includes her ending up standing over you in the kitchen holding a bloody knife… (and i wish i were kidding about that…)

    I must prevent the rage from happening, starting. It’s on me.

    if this has happened before, there should be a pattern that you can deconstruct… there will be a point at which you really should execute a ‘back turn’/walk-away… and by analyzing the pattern, you can figure out what that point is (basically, you figure out her rolodex on where she escalates her shit tests…lol). so, the next time, you can spot it in real time and then know what to do…

    good luck!
    —————-
    @AR EhIntellect

    Contra what Blue PIll pedestalizer Deida and his groupies say, women can and do lie. They lie to themselves first, in order to rationalize their own actions, then they lie to others. Painful though it may be to you in that moment, realize that all that torrent of words is no more significant than some 5 year old that’s up past bedtime screaming “I HATE YOU” or a 2 year old slapping you. It’s just the nature of the person and the situation.

    true… and if you can’t ‘see’ past the meaning of the words to what is actually going on, you don’t ‘just get it’… that’s a huge part of letting that RP slide down… and it’s bittersweet… lol… bc girls are NOT ‘men with tits’…lol… but why would you want them to be?…lol…

    Oh, yeah, by the way: this whole “building tension” followed by “explosion” followed by “make up” followe by “pseudonormality” cycle is what abusive situations look like.

    true… and that ‘make nice’ behavior at the end is consolidating whatever ‘gains’ (better frame control/more hand/getting chased harder/etc) the person made in the interaction…

    There was a couple in the area who apparently followed an amped up version of this script until she stabbed him with something and eventually he died.

    it’s not an ‘amped up’ version, though… it’s just a normal script, which is a couple cycles further along in the process from where EhIntellect’s situ is right now…

    and getting blood work done on her to rule out a hormone issue is good advice, and definitely should be done… but her ‘spinning up’ isn’t outside the bounds of ‘normal’ rolodex shit tests… at least when the man is so inconsistently failing them like a boss…lol… and especially if he has enough RP to get him into trouble…lol… (see Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite…lol)

    good luck!
    ————–
    @Adam

    props on taking action…

    if you haven’t already, go to the side bar up top and go to YaReally’s Archive and read, read, read… understand the concept of ‘opening’ and ‘cold read’…

    read through the concept of Mystery Method… understand creating attraction FIRST… then moving to ‘comfort’…

    also, Chateau Heartiste has a relevant post…

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/why-ask-why-shun-the-stale-seven-questions/

    you should never ask interview style questions until you are in ‘comfort phase’ of meeting the girl…

    also,

    The problem is she is my only lead right now. I’m not afraid of showing intent these days and am willing to walk but neediness has always ruined me.

    if this chinese girl is a student, then there are lots of girls on campus…lol… so, go THERE… and approach 100 (no that’s not a typo…lol) different girls this week/weekend… just start by asking them if they know where [something on campus] is… and talk to them for a minute or two without using one of those seven questions…lol… then, move on…

    good luck!
    ————
    @TheMarquis

    no time right now, i’ll try to get to this when i get more time…

    good luck!

  11. @TheMarquis

    Having A Bad Day and Sentient

    Is the right forum now to post this? Not the main post comments?

    yep, sort of like the kids’ table in the spare bedroom…lol… but hopefully more guys will feel confident enough to ask for help if it’s not in front of all the grownups…lol…

    Married guy here with kids, mid 30s, working on turning his marriage around and I post from time to time and you guys helped before.

    Had an interesting experience last night even though it ended badly and input is appreciated.

    Watching TV with wife with her cuddled up to me. Wife having several glasses of wine. I comment about how I can tell from just her voice she is getting a little tipsy.

    No reply but she knows I don’t like having sex with her when she’s tipsy and I won’t do it.

    you know this is a shit test, right?… if you don’t like it, and she does it anyway, you have to handle it…

    Half an hour later I farted (heh) and she makes a big fuss about it and moves away for a couple minutes then comes back.

    shit test…

    Ten minutes later I farted again and she makes a big fuss about how it smells and she’s lighting aromatic candles around me and moves away from me to another chair, while I laugh out loud with genuine tears of laughter (I did fart but it wasn’t THAT smelly FAOD).

    that’s a great reaction… = pass that shit test…

    She said:

    Her: “I was thinking of having sex with you tonight but now I can’t”.

    she really was thinking about sex and it’s a shit test… or it’s beta bait… hard to tell from the context…

    I laughed and said “I’m gonna take advantage of you in the morning”

    Her: “No, still too smelly in the morning”

    shit test…

    Twenty minutes later, the movie ends and she gets up to go to bed – I always stay up later.

    She repeats she had been thinking of having sex with me but now can’t.

    she really wants the D…lol…

    I repeat my line about taking advantage of her in the morning.

    this was probably good… it kept you in your frame…

    Then she says – I get the feeling this was a REALLY IMPORTANT sign but I’m not sure why or how.

    “Stop doing this mock controlling thing – we’re not having sex in the morning” and she went off to bed.

    that’s you passing her shit tests (by not chasing her)… and her throwing out another one…lol…

    I may not have the words exactly right but that was the meaning of what she said.

    The vibe was fine – she wasn’t angry or anything. That statement was completely matter of fact from her and I ignored it.

    I sat up thinking about it for a long time.

    I don’t fully understand.

    how is she going to ‘invite’ you to have sex with her in a way that you ‘just get it’?… serious question…

    Lately we’ve been arguing a lot. All kinds of things. Silly small stuff to children stuff – she’s a good mom but I think she protects them too much and she thinks I’m too irresponsible with them – a subject for another post.

    no… any arguments are just frame battles playing out in real time…lol…

    But like we’re always fighting for the frame. I’m okay on holding firm and being reasonably unreactive. Or better than I used to be.

    good…

    A lot of the amused mastery lines fall flat – I don’t think I have enough attraction to pull them off. Sometimes they work.

    or… sometimes they actually do work, and her ‘non-reaction’ is the follow-on shit test… and more attraction comes as a RESULT of passing shit tests…

    I think I posted before about how my mom mentioned a girl I knew from high school had come back to town and was asking about me after years in front of the wife and that resulted in several days of good sex some months ago. Otherwise sex life is very so so. Infrequent sex although plenty of mentions of it.

    then, her ‘talking’ about it is likely beta bait… but if she is talking about it, she is thinking about it… so, if you want more sex, you just have to convert on those thoughts… by passing the shit tests… you could just start by reframing her ‘talking about sex’ as her chasing you… which it really is…lol… but make it more explicit…

    her: you’re not getting sex tonight…
    you: thinking about me again, huh?… [change subject] (and be ready for the follow-on shit test as her attraction gets spiked…lol)

    Quite often she explicitly says “as a joke” that “Don’t do X if you want to see me naked again”. Of course it’s not that we even have sex all that often anyway. But it’s not totally dead bedroom although daily life and the kids mean we really don’t often have time for it.

    if YOU are not getting ‘enough’ to satisfy you, you need to address that issue…

    She has told me I’m “the love of her life” – quite a while ago.

    before/after/instead of sex?…lol… but if you are not getting ‘enough’ sex, you need to address the issue…

    Even yesterday before the farting she told me she loved me so much yesterday because she loved seeing me when I spent quality time doing a project with the kids and basically being a good dad. Not that I need her approval to do that.

    She often gets upset and calls me cold and unfeeling and things like that when we fight.

    shit tests…

    In our daily life and social circle there is little opportunity to engage dread which is why the high-school girl thing hit her hard. I never even met that woman and hadn’t for twenty years.

    We have some money issues. She knows things are tight and I’m a bit tense but she doesn’t have a clue how bad it is. I’m the main breadwinner. She works part time and makes pocket money. We aren’t in any danger of being on the street, and my job and our medical insurance is safe, and our daily life is manageable but there are severe cash flow problems and some debt.</i.

    you can talk to your wife about your finances… including how bad things are… you just have to do it from your frame… and expect her to test you more…

    I actually think given our situation, she needs more comfort or beta stuff than some girl you meet in a club for a one night stand.

    that’s true for any LTR… but attraction still precedes sex…lol…

    And I think there have been quite a few situations recently where she needed MORE comfort and reassurance from me (not about money but on an emotional level) than I gave her and that’s part of the problem.</i.

    maybe… if your value is 'too high'… and she is worried that you will leave her…

    I can clearly see a correlation between more/less comfort and things between us. More comfort DOES improve things. Especially since from her perspective I’m a stressed out guy who complains a lot and is irritable and is (plainly) not in complete control of his life and doesn’t like his job. That is a caricature of me but it has some truth for sure and I’m taking action to fix all of it.

    good…

    So when I improve on any of that stuff and I’m less irritable and do more around the house and generally treat her nicer, things ARE better.

    engaging in the business of living is sort of part of and separate from (at the same time) the business of sex… BB AND AF…

    But I think I understood something last night. Simply moving the “comfort dial” up and down doesn’t build attraction.

    that’s some great insight… bc that’s exactly right…

    I know too much comfort in a seduction extinguishes attraction

    true…

    and too much attraction without comfort means losing a woman in the opposite direction.

    only for a LTR… more attraction is always better… until she starts to believe that you are out of her league…

    But the reverse isn’t true I think. Just taking away comfort-building action doesn’t automatically build attraction.

    that’s true… and again great insight…

    Just taking away attraction action doesn’t automatically build comfort. They just leave a void. To build attraction I still need action like dread, to lift, to control the frame and all that. To build comfort I still need to be “nicer” to her and all that.

    that’s the basics… but things like ‘dread’ are all DHV-based…

    So I think I don’t have enough attraction.

    that’s usually true if you are not getting enough sex…

    I’m making some progress in improving comfort where needed. But I really really need to increase attraction and follow the explicit MMSL steps – lifting, sorting out finances.

    MMSL first book is still good advice… ignore everything after Athol switched to purple pill…

    Dread is difficult but maybe I can try flirting with waitresses or whatever.

    you should do this anyway… bc it’s fun…lol…

    I think I posted before but I have slept with some other girls from Tinder when on business trips and when I’m around women I usually get “the eye” or flirting from some – no one serious just the odd fling.

    I’m no Don Juan but I know other women find me attractive. It’s just my wife doesn’t see any of that and I’m in a much more negative headspace when around my day to day life (except my kids who are great and even my wife is pretty cool and fun when in a good mood).

    As for my wife, she’s a good mom and a good cook and she tries her best for the most part. She’s made big effort in the last few months to get fit and lose weight with quite a bit of success and she’s continuing. She guards her weight jealously, but she’s about 5’3” and at her peak was probably around 230 lbs at a guess. I don’t even know what dress size that is? 18? 16?

    But she’s dramatically improved her fitness in 2016 after finding a trainer who works for her. She’s much much fitter, her body shape is clearly changing and building muscle and she’s probably lost at least 40-50 lbs if not more in a slow, sustainable fashion. She’s still overweight but the trend is very positive.

    this actually indicates that you ARE more attractive to her… bc she’s actively making an effort to be more attractive to you…

    I would almost think she could be having an affair but she also has very few opportunities in our daily life for the same reasons as me, although she also travels a lot on assignments for her part-time work (and I have the kids). But I think I still have enough value to her and things are still good between us when they are good that she probably isn’t having an affair. No one can know for sure of course.

    Generally I need to have a better positive attitude about life around her.

    that’s generally a great idea anyway…

    Forget my wife in a way. Am I really the man I want to be? Physically, mentally, in career terms? I’m clearly not. If I can give her her comfort and focus on my personal goals, while keeping a positive mental attitude and not letting her affect my emotional state. I can’t expect her to be a good FO if I’m not stepping up as the Captain.

    And that means:

    -Positive mental attitude – no being stressed or irritable and no complaining
    -Independent – not expecting her to make my meals etc just so that I can get to the gym or whatever on time, or rather not relying on that

    why wouldn’t you expect her to do nice things for you?…

    -Fixing the money issues – I’m doing this but it will take some time
    -Lifting/eating healthy –
    -Dread where possible – part of fixing the money and lifestyle issues is planning a move back to the city where we met and had the kids before moving here for work reasons and Dread will be a lot easier there but the move will take a couple years to pull off.

    that’s all great… but you don’t have to ‘wait’ to have a better relationship with her… you just have to handle her shit tests… and escalate to sex when you want it…

    Having A Bad Day and Sentient

    One more thing I just remembered. I don’t know how relevant it is, but about a year or so ago I gave my wife my old laptop and she stumbled on a bunch of old pickup material I downloaded years ago.

    Nothing about my extramarital Tinder exploits and nothing about Red Pill or MMSL stuff (which are more recent) but just a random set of PDFs of all kinds of pickup material from all kinds of places most of which I never even got around to reading and don’t know what it contains. Nothing’s perfect, but my opsec on current activities is quite good. This was old stuff. She has also known for years – before we got together that I had a couple of How-To books on Sex and a copy of that pickup book The Game, which have moved a couple of houses with us from my single days and she’s been okay with it (but I don’t think she ever read those).

    She brings up the PDFs quite often – maybe once a month or so.

    shit tests… does she bring it up during her ‘horny phase’ of her cycle?… bc if that’s true, so WANTS you to handle the shit tests and get her into bed…

    Usually something along the lines of how I was a nerd before I met her and she had to teach me to how to kiss properly and I was so desperate that I downloaded all these things to learn how to do deal with girls (there is some truth to all of this) and how the books are creepy and misogynist and teach men to rape girls etc.

    this is FI shaming at it’s ‘best’… so, just know that you are fighting the full weight of social conditioning when you are trying to respond to these shit tests…

    props for even trying to get better… but to get past this, you will have to own your sexuality… and forgive yourself for not understanding this RP stuff sooner… that’s a tough sell to your hindbrain… but you really CAN do it… ask me how i know…lol…

    I usually laugh it off but it happens quite often.

    sooo, you know it’s coming again…lol… figure out a response and try it out… also, you are likely still feeling like you ‘don’t deserve’ to be sexual (see above)… so, you are still feeling that shame that the FI puts on you for wanting that for yourself…

    Sometimes she says stuff like “Did you read that line in your books?” Or “Don’t try that “dominant” stuff from those books on me”, sometimes even when I AM trying to be dominant.

    sooo, she doesn’t always get it right…lol… that means she is not responding to your ‘dominance’ in situ… so something else is going on… likely it’s just another shit test… with her projecting what she wants to happen…lol… bc IF you were to handle THAT shit test, the result would be that you WERE dominant…

    Of course she doesn’t know about Red Pill and all that but this is still annoying – how do I handle it?

    ‘agree and amplify’ is usually a good response to a shit test… just also be ready for the follow-on shit test…lol…

    good luck!

  12. @hank

    Good set with the waitress girl! The thing I notice about your FR’s is that you depict all push, no pull, so I’m like ‘OK she gave compliance so reward her‘ but then you just throw out another neg or DQ or spike story. You’re getting good reactions though so I suspect you’re relaying the ‘reward’ part of the interaction through body language or something like that.

    Just observing to facilitate communication, my feedback has been ‘woah dude pull back a bit on the harsh humor’ and that might be why. It sounds like you’re doing just that but I suspect that’s not true.

    @EhIntellect

    Interesting times. To whom much is given, much will be required. She’s giving you alpha sex, you need alpha game. Or shit blows up. I think you’ll do it though! HABD is giving you all the details you need to start.

    You reacted pretty well, all told.

    Love hearing about teaching your son PUA shit, that’s so fun! That’s a huge boon for them. But yeah, that’s on the DL. ‘Just us guys’ moments. Women will always see PUA in a negative light, because men are supposed to ‘just get it.’

    Which brings me to @TheMarquis

    Whoop, she found the PUA stash. You’re not gonna hear the end of that. So what to do?

    Play with her.

    This is all a funny game whenever she brings it up. It’s basically AA as HABD said above, but how that might play out is that, whenever she brings it up, you make some bullshit amusing story about it.

    For example, pretend to be in an advertisment for PUA. “I went from loser to player in 10 short weeks! I banged three girls last afternoon! See that girl over there? Banged her! Your mom? Banged her too! You can too – get our book for only 29.99, today only! Act now!”

    Or if that’s a bit silly for you, just make up all sorts of outrageous stories about how you used your knowledge. Or tease her about how she couldn’t resist you because of your secret jedi mind tricks.

    That last one could be a central dynamic – flip it around. “Yeah, you were sooo into me with all my slick moves. You should write a testimonial – ‘I found a pua guy and he’s amazing!!!’

    Like she’s the one who benefits/wants to have those books around.

    Have fun with it.

    See, overall you should be an interesting guy to be around. Don’t be boring. Boring is a giant fistful of talc powder thrown up her lovecave.

    She would rather have you give her negative emotions than no emotions. Hell, some women prefer negative emotions to positive emotions, here’s where calibration is key. If your woman isn’t frequently reprimanding, pushing, giggling, etc you’re not doing it right.

    Like

    at work there’s two girls I play with for fun. One of them I just neg or (physically) poke and push, and she’ll hiss my name and swat at me. Then I’ll say something random and she’ll laugh. And then we just stand around talking for a minute, rubbing hips and shoulders, till I like poke her or pick her up again. She looks forward to our little talks.

    The other girl is more verbal, so I’ll just say outrageous things or invent strange stories or make up strings of innuendo. Generally after she blows up once or twice she’ll try to get serious and say “Forge! You’re so WEIRD!” basically trying to keep her BT low.

    She did that the other day and I put my arm around her waist and pulled her into me and she just sorta….let me. “For some reason you still keep talking to me though.” She was doing her best to keep the ‘I want to bang you’ look offa her face.

    We were talking about her upcoming wedding lol. Attraction isn’t a choice and all that. Acting on it is so I ain’t going down that drama train but the mechanics is the mechanics.

    Go and do likewise! With a waitress or something first if you need practice.

  13. Also to add,

    if she brings up the PUA stuff, use something like the stuff I wrote above to spike her emotions a bit, then roll off the subject. You ain’t gonna win any mind games by keeping on talking about it.

    Oh hey, I just thought of another one! “I got those for you, actually. I hoped you’d learn some game.”

    Then if she needs some pull: “It worked a treat too! I can’t keep my hands off you now. What have you done to me with your weird game stuff?”

    Or if she’s relating well to a pull: “It didn’t work though! I’m so boooored! Why can’t you just get it?” then just parody the way women talk when they’re not attracted to their dude.

    Role reversal. PUA staple for a reason.

    Hell, this is useful in a lot of cases. Use her tactics on her. “NO. That is GROSS. We are NOT having sex tonight missy.” [walk off in exaggerated huff] Do this when she’s likely to chase you.

    Add roleplay. Approach her in the kitchen like it’s a bar. If she gets into it: “I can’t go home with you! I just met you! You might molest me!”

    There’s no end to this shit. If you can’t muster it, first point of priority is getting your headspace to where you can – diet, exercise, career, whatever’s holding you back from just being fun and cocksure.

  14. Marquis
    habd’s advice is sound. You should download it and save it. Lemme hit this one point:

    Sometimes she says stuff like “Did you read that line in your books?” Or “Don’t try that “dominant” stuff from those books on me”, sometimes even when I AM trying to be dominant.

    Oh, this is such obvious beta bait / shit testing, and it could even be turned into a private little game for you two if you work it right.

    But first, you need to script a response to this, visualize saying it, then when she reaches this entry in her Rolodex just execute, then backturn or change the subject. Don’t let her toss that stink bomb in the room and get away with it. Practice your smirk in the mirror for a while, to get it down as an unconscious thing. Then…

    You can go cocky-funny, “No, I made that line up myself, do you like it?” and smirk.
    “Who else should I try to dominate?” – smirk – or “You know you love it” – smirk.

    You can go Agree & Amplify: “Yes, in fact pretty much everything I say nowadays came from a book!” smirk.

    You can go bratty little sister, “Someone’s got to read books around here, might as well be me”, or “I’m not trying dominant stuff” as you tug on her hair or pick her up and move her somewhere else.

    Since she’s popping this out of her rolodex, it’ll come up again. Have a response, calibrate it to her state, and execute it. If it doesn’t work, just backturn and come back later. If it does work, convert that state to a better one. She keeps repeating it because it’s pushing a button of yours. Accept that button exists, but tie a better neural response to it.

  15. @Marquis

    Another perspective:

    “Of course she doesn’t know about Red Pill and all that but this is still annoying – how do I handle it?”

    Red Pill is hard, esp. in marriage it is the hard mode. You need to be un-apologetic about who you are as a man.

    OTOH, She doesn’t have to know you are consuming red pill blogs, books and input from a lot of sources.

    So STFU and read is a way to pass the shit test.

    Who is she to tell you to not self improve via Red Pill?

    You need to read more not less. It is best to not ask permission for you to read this stuff, nor let her deny you permission. Same rules for masturbation. Any sensible woman has a game going on. She shames you for masturbation, and she has billions of masturbatory things going on (whether actually doing it or reading Fifty Shades) and shit tests you>

    The most AFC, Beta move you can make is not to own you and your desire to consume Red Pill Thought and reading. What the fuck do you think the Manosphere was invented for? For you to have an advantage in your sexual strategy. That’s what. It is time you started taking advantage of that unless you enjoy being Betatized by your wife.

    The fact is that there are so many great books and old blog writings out there, that you don’t know what you are missing out on. (Like the whole of the sidebar at MRP reddit. There’s gold in them there sidebars. )

    You need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy by Manuel Smith in regards to your wife haranguing you about reading red pill PDF’s. She doesn’t have any idea what is in those PDF’s and doesn’t actually care to spend time. She is just using “You Shouldn’t Know This Stuff” (T.M.) because you should “Just Get It” (T.M) on your own or I’m going to play hide the pussy to get control over you.

    Amused mastery: Tell your wife when she is asking (what you are doing with your surreptitious dealings on the computer) that all this stuff you are hiding from her is Porn. Really, really good Porn. Tell you that Dr. Laura Schlessinger recommended “it is normal and necessary for a man to not have a cerebral aneurysm when his wife has no interest in actually fucking him” with a straight face. No Butt-hurt ever is allowed. You keep in frame and have options, even if it is the option to withhold attention and go leave to read lots and lots of red pill stuff. Keep your non-verbal attitude as: – Relaxed. – Non-aggressive. – Self-confident. – Open. – Communicative.

    Keep things No Big Deal–You Got This. It will require more skill and mastery than you own now, but that is the goal.

    You should go out of the house and read red pill books. To the library, to Starbucks or to a bar and read the sidebar and MRP reddit. Like your life depends on it. (Because it actually does.)

    What I do on my time is just as valuable as what my wife does in her free time. You have to have that assertiveness mindset.

    I overheard my wife matter of fact that Mr. SJF is really handling some moderately challenging issues including son getting in trouble (again, or shit happening to him like no fault on his part car accident- lol, that’s the narrative, heh, Mindfulness) issues in a great fashion so she is less stressed about them. (Oak Tree Statement). (I was 100% sober and having fun late at the holiday party, so I could overheard randomly from a significant distance away.) So I walked over a few steps and said: “Yeah I learned that from reading a book”. To tease my wife about her and the reaction went over well between them two. Appropriate, I understand laugh. And the message, that said my current alpha oak stature is a direct result of former reading and acting, not talking about it. Anytime my wife asks what I’m reading now, the answer is “stuff”, or “books”. I read lots of books instead of the same time that could be used to watch television.

    I was going to write another field report about that last Saturday huge holiday party, in which I performed well game wise. But I don’t want to ramble too much. But I did want to make a point about Frame Battles and Frame Grabs and Alcohol.

    I drink these days, but for example: I had a fourth big holiday party last Saturday. I have no compulsions to drink when a major blowout once a year party happens. I’m plagued by these, but turn them into Game opportunities, not to Casanova like screw other wives, but give my wife greater value in her social circle (Ian Ironwood style), give myself more DHV, pre-selection, self amusement and power. I’ve been doing better over the years and the sex with my wife is more effortless. I drank zero alcohol (diet Coke and club soda with lime) and my game performance was in full control. (don’t have time to lay down a boring field report of my enthusiastic, exciting night.)

    @EhIntellect in my opinion should drink less simply cause he can game better. He should limit his drinking for better performance.

    You let your wife roam, Roissy’s Ninth Style. You control your drinking. And you win in Game.

    I’m not averse to drowning your sorrows on a bad night, but just like PUA guys, the best game is done when sober, and in MRP life it is more authentic.

    That being said, I’m in favor of the wife being boozy. To get her into a weaker Frame. To let her Roam, to lessen her bitchy-ness in the short run (when your Alpha Frame and Mental Point of Origin is in the repair shop).

    Start with being a designated driver that actually doesn’t drink at a big party and let her roam.

    You don’t have to not drink, but if you can execute good married red pill game without drinking totally independent of what your wife does, it gives you an advantage in game. If you refrain and she drinks too much (not a long term strategy), guess who kept better Frame. It’s training wheel Frame control.

    @Marquis

    What the fuck is wrong with your wife drinking– same thing. As long as she is not getting stupid drunk, why the fuck would you not want to have sex with her when she is drinking? I’m sure it comes from shame at times when she called you out for being beta when fucking you because the booze made her un-inhibited. Because she kept boozy frame. As long as you keep Frame, you are good to go. She is your fucking wife. You are your fucking Mental Point of Origin and it is OK.

    You should take advantage of her booziness. In your Frame.

    It lets her forget about your Beta-ness for a second and fantasize.

    You need to study Shit Tests. Be aware of them. Use them to your advantage. Create minor dread. She will appreciate you for it.

    You got a long way to go, but you can do it. She won’t want to submit until she can trust you to be Alpha most of the time. Relax and learn. You got plenty of time.

    Ilimitable ManMAXIM #24: “As her control increases, her attraction and respect decreases. As her control decreases, her attraction and respect increases. If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways, she will never really believe he is a worthy leader.”

    Despite the pessimistic tone of that, you can regain control with red pill knowledge and proper Frame and Game. It it entirely possible to achieve this if you have desire and proper instruction. Keep posting field reports. They are the life-blood of you improving. And getting proper instruction you never got.

    Your Fart Frame was stupid. You totally cave to her Frame. She goes up-stairs, you follow. Announce you are hopping in the shower and she can get ready for you when she announced that she wanted to do it. Don’t fucking judge her for drinking if you want to get laid.

    Do you care to explain this idea that you prefer not to have sex with her when she is drinking thing?

    (Marquis, you need to read. You need to find time and you need to get more red pill awareness. If you have financial issues with $6.00 books like Blue Pill Professor’s book on the MRP side bar. Private message me and ask for assistance here to borrow any book you want I have a big library:)

    https://www.trp.red/feed/

    Please at least read “No More Mr. Nice Guy”, “When I Say No I feel Guilty” on Assertiveness training and “Blue Pill Professor’s Book” on levels of dread (10x’s better than Athol Kay, writting in Red Pill Language). And don’t defend, excuse, explain, and rationalize your deficits to your wife. Be the guy she actually wants to fuck. She wants to fuck (someone). I guarantee it.

    Damn, you made me ramble…

  16. Friday lots of sex and apologies.
    Saturday more compliments, apologies and sex.

    On to bluepillprofessr youtube. The comfort/shit test clips. Reread all y’alls helpful comments, many many times. Cool.

    Saturday night: She unilateraly blows through my 3 stages of emotional detachment in 5 seconds. Straight to finger waving. Obviously, I’ve let this go too long. Duh. Thanks for your patience.

    I finish dinner, tell the kids to behave, I’m leaving and they can call me if needed. Wife runs out the house in socks, in the wet. “Let’s talk.” She’s accuses me of running away. I repeat she can call. She tries physically stopping me, the truck.

    2 hours later. She calls, wants to talk, I set ground rules, lay off the booze, any accusations, anger…I’ll hang up and she can try again later.

    She accuses me of driving her drinking habit, I tell her goodbye, she can try again later.

    15″, she accuses me of treating her as a child or that I’m her council. I tell her to call back when she can stay calm, hang up.

    This goes on a couple more times, she gets mad, I tell her this, hang up. 10″, uses kids as weapons, I tell her this, hang up. 2″, says unbeleivable crap, I tell her, hang up.

    Tries using daughter’s request to get me home, I tell her to address the issues and stop weaponizing the kids. She’s agrees to all I demand…then she requests me coming home. She’ll say, agree to anything, now.

    I’m sober.

    Say I’ll come home when I’m ready, things must change. Home by 10PM.

    Next day, she asks if I’ll stay with family. I slowly draw her aside away from kids. Sure, the ground rules still apply. She quietly agrees. She asks if she can make rules. Me: No.

    She gets loud, accusatory, pulls pussy access (meh).

    In bedroom, I put on shoes, tell her this is what I’m talking about, she can’t control her temper, is physical non-sexually and drags the kids into it, amplifing and argueing publicly.

    She says, nope, she’s leaving (yay!). She bolts, then back inside x2 to get her gym bag.

    The house is authentically happy, chill. I help with homework.

    On the razor again.

    Wife’s back, asks and makes me lunch.

    I’m quietly eating, polite, just here. Doing my thing.

    She’s up and down most of the night. Up early as always, she’s got coffee for me.

    She’s sullen: I’m really looking to move on. (Long pause)

    Me: Honey, we’ve started moving on. Change is uncomfortable.

    Her: I’m sorry for the years of strain I’ve put on our marriage. (I nod softly). (Long pause) I’m sorry about hurting you. I have to change. I never want to do that again.

    I sit with her for another half cup, get my gear, bid her adieu.

    Afterwork, she tells me some such about emotion, sex and being o.k. with our differences. At one point she says “I told myself I wouldn’t say what I just did. It’s not what I meant.”

    Me: I dont want anything lost in translation. Give yourself time to gather your thoughts.

    5″ later she asks me to read:

    “When asked to describe the purpose of romance, a woman will use words such as friendship, relationship, endearment, and tenderness. Given the same question, a man will answer with one of the shortest words in the English language—sex. For him, physical oneness and affirmation of his manhood equal romance.”

    Her: You’ve been fulfilling both our needs. I wasn’t seeing it from this perspective. I didn’t know how to say this in my own words. If you would have told me this two days or months ago, I wouldn’t have believed you. I never could have seen this without you.

    She’s staring at me. Runs up to me kisses me and walks away.

    In bed, she turns half-up, staring. “EhIntellect, you’re awesome. (Pause) I love being close to you.”…and jumps me.

    There’s more but I got this now.

    Going forward: full transition from tipsy, amoging fuck-face to sober, calm, steamy hubby (laugh all you want). High volume monogamous sexlife is too whipsaw. That’s another chapter…

    Time will tell if I got it in me. Took a page from my oldest’s natural calm early on, lucky kid. Will do trusted alpha long term and report back. One more time, thanks!

  17. @EhIntellect

    not a lot of time so i’m gonna chunk it off in big blocks…lol

    Friday lots of sex and apologies.
    Saturday more compliments, apologies and sex.

    On to bluepillprofessr youtube. The comfort/shit test clips. Reread all y’alls helpful comments, many many times. Cool.

    good you need some guidance…lol (also read ‘Just get it’ here…)

    Saturday night: She unilateraly blows through my 3 stages of emotional detachment in 5 seconds. Straight to finger waving. Obviously, I’ve let this go too long. Duh. Thanks for your patience.

    the cycle is not unknown/unknowable…lol

    I finish dinner, tell the kids to behave, I’m leaving and they can call me if needed.

    this is GREAT!… you are finally getting it… = take action not ‘words’…

    Wife runs out the house in socks, in the wet. “Let’s talk.” She’s accuses me of running away. I repeat she can call. She tries physically stopping me, the truck.

    2 hours later. She calls, wants to talk, I set ground rules, lay off the booze, any accusations, anger…I’ll hang up and she can try again later.

    She accuses me of driving her drinking habit, I tell her goodbye, she can try again later.

    15″, she accuses me of treating her as a child or that I’m her council. I tell her to call back when she can stay calm, hang up.

    This goes on a couple more times, she gets mad, I tell her this, hang up. 10″, uses kids as weapons, I tell her this, hang up. 2″, says unbeleivable crap, I tell her, hang up.

    Tries using daughter’s request to get me home, I tell her to address the issues and stop weaponizing the kids. She’s agrees to all I demand…then she requests me coming home. She’ll say, agree to anything, now.

    this is still just part of the cycle… bc you are STILL ‘negotiating’ with her hindbrain… = logical (beta) fail… you should have NOT answered the phone… next time (and there likely will be) just go ‘incommunicado’… until you get home… bc otherwise you are still in her frame (= answer the phone when she calls… but then again, she DOES have that magic pussy…lol)

    I’m sober.

    good…

    Say I’ll come home when I’m ready, things must change. Home by 10PM.

    Next day, she asks if I’ll stay with family. I slowly draw her aside away from kids. Sure, the ground rules still apply. She quietly agrees. She asks if she can make rules. Me: No.

    She gets loud, accusatory, pulls pussy access (meh).

    see…no change…lol… just part of her rolodex… which is still in play… = same old pattern…

    In bedroom, I put on shoes, tell her this is what I’m talking about, she can’t control her temper, is physical non-sexually and drags the kids into it, amplifing and argueing publicly.

    She says, nope, she’s leaving (yay!). She bolts, then back inside x2 to get her gym bag.

    The house is authentically happy, chill. I help with homework.

    On the razor again.

    Wife’s back, asks and makes me lunch.

    I’m quietly eating, polite, just here. Doing my thing.

    She’s up and down most of the night. Up early as always, she’s got coffee for me.

    She’s sullen: I’m really looking to move on. (Long pause)

    Me: Honey, we’ve started moving on. Change is uncomfortable.

    Her: I’m sorry for the years of strain I’ve put on our marriage. (I nod softly). (Long pause) I’m sorry about hurting you. I have to change. I never want to do that again.

    has she said this shit before?…lol… has she DONE this shit before (be nice and helpful? = lulling you in with beta bait…lol)… i’m guessing yes (or a rough approximation… = ‘yes you are right’…”here, let me get you lunch”… HEY! that sounds JUST like when she got you DINNER after the last blow out…lol… was she wearing a sexy nighty this time too?…lol)

    I sit with her for another half cup, get my gear, bid her adieu.

    Afterwork, she tells me some such about emotion, sex and being o.k. with our differences. At one point she says “I told myself I wouldn’t say what I just did. It’s not what I meant.”

    Me: I dont want anything lost in translation. Give yourself time to gather your thoughts.

    5″ later she asks me to read:

    “When asked to describe the purpose of romance, a woman will use words such as friendship, relationship, endearment, and tenderness. Given the same question, a man will answer with one of the shortest words in the English language—sex. For him, physical oneness and affirmation of his manhood equal romance.”

    Her: You’ve been fulfilling both our needs. I wasn’t seeing it from this perspective. I didn’t know how to say this in my own words. If you would have told me this two days or months ago, I wouldn’t have believed you. I never could have seen this without you.

    She’s staring at me. Runs up to me kisses me and walks away.

    same as above… = part of cycle… and i bet it’s happened just like this before… = logical fail… bc you are still negotiating with her hindbrain… with WORDS… and everything ELSE (ALL the subcomms in play) are positive reinforcement for her rolodex…

    In bed, she turns half-up, staring. “EhIntellect, you’re awesome. (Pause) I love being close to you.”…and jumps me.

    There’s more but I got this now.

    still better hide the knives…lol… bc you are not getting an essential part of this process… = ‘logic’ (language) doesn’t have any effect on girl’s hindbrains… the ONLY thing that gets through is ACTIONS (includes subcomms) you take in response to her behavior…

    Going forward: full transition from tipsy, amoging fuck-face to sober, calm, steamy hubby (laugh all you want). High volume monogamous sexlife is too whipsaw. That’s another chapter…

    Time will tell if I got it in me. Took a page from my oldest’s natural calm early on, lucky kid. Will do trusted alpha long term and report back. One more time, thanks!

    gotta go…

    good luck!

  18. EhIntellect, you have to stay out of her frame, we both know that. When you find that you have slid into her frame, or are starting to, physically going somewhere else is a good plan. “Leaving” mentally right now isn’t enough, you need to get away. Go have a cup of coffee or something, play music or read text that helps you get back into proper state of mind, then return.

    She’s going to run her full Rolodex at you regularly. If she hits one of your buttons that really fires you up, get out and do physical stuff – cut weeds, walk, lift, something to burn off the adren-cortisol and get you back in a proper state.

  19. @EhIntellect

    Hang in there. But Relax. And take things in increments (two weeks, three months, six months, etc). And keep in mind it is the holiday stressful time right now. You are actually doing good and your intellect and desire will improve your game. It takes a while. Your wife is still going through extinction bursts and she still needs distance from your old patterns and your old habits. Time helps that. And the non-low-sex situ is a great springboard–that is a big asset to work with. Yes change is uncomfortable (for her, not you).

    I know the feeling, I was there 18 months ago in the Frame battles. Don’t so much battle her frame as keep your frame. The best thing I did to keep frame was to hang around with other guy friends that red pill inclined if not wholly red pill invested. (Keep in mind your sons can fill the role of a guy to hang out with two, doing stuff side by side on a task). There might be some men’s get togethers at the church or you could poach a church guy as a new friend that is red pill inclined. Part of the reason to hang with a guy that would have your back in a discussion is to commiserate on how married red pill game is (not that you need to commiserate, but it helps to get guy support in real life). Stick to the script you are on. It works.

    She is doing good too. She is inclined to improve. Her citing that passage about what women want (friendship, relationship, endearment, and tenderness) means she wants to learn how to be a good wife. Those elements mentioned are your presence and affection for her good behavior. They are different than your time and attention (that you remove for her poor behavior).

    Since she is inclined to improve, you might want to get her some kindle stocking stuffer books, so can “just get it” (on her own–it’s always better when they figure things and think they came up with their own fixing), how women should operate towards their husband. I especially thing this would work in the setting of religious and family and close knit church communities. Here is where your tribe (your family) shine in doing family right, in an us-against-them world. That’s what kinship altruism is for, for humans to advance in a dystopian system. Altruism actually works in families and small groups rather than large groups. It is how humans psychologically developed before large groups, so it is part of the firmware. It is not a trap or a glitch (unless you are all alone in a cruel large group, then it is just stupid).

    Blue Pill Professor had some suggestions in his book in the preface for women. I haven’t read these books, I did give my wife “First Kill All the Marriage Couselors” last year and my wife said it was good. I didn’t read it, nor did I read what might be good: Laura Schlessinger’s “Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”.

    This was his preface:

    Preface For Women:
    This book is written for men, and it contains locker room language that will offend many if not ALL women. I am not going to apologize as you have now been warned. I just want to be clear from the beginning that not much good can come of any woman reading this. My own wife has not read this, and she has little interest in doing so. This is just guy stuff that no woman needs or even wants to know, and if you do, it may destroy the magic of letting intimacy just happen naturally. Don’t read this if you are a woman. There is no secret knowledge for you ladies, so move along and go make your husband a sandwich before you give him this book.

    However, if you are a woman in a marriage or long term relationship, and there is something missing from your life, especially if the unnamed something you have lost is all that glitter you felt earlier with your lover. Then you should really consider giving him this book. You just never know; I might be able to show him how to absolutely rock your world.

    After you give your man this book, you should order something that will help you, as a woman. As luck would have it, I had the fortune to read Laura Doyle’s 2015 book, First, Kill All the Marriage Counselors just as I was finalizing the edits for the book you are reading right now and realized that her advice is essentially the mirror image of the advice I had just spent several months writing for men.

    Trust me on this, if you don’t believe anything else, girlfriend: If you read Laura Doyle’s book and implement her “6 intimacy tools” good things will happen. If your husband reads my book at the same time, then I seriously expect magic to happen, and the Heavens to open up. At worst if your man reads this book and implements some of the ideas, it will leave him a better man with a much better idea of how to please you.

    So… here are 3 books for women, by women, with time tested techniques that can actually help a woman who is in a low sex, unhappy marriage just like your situation!

    -First Kill All the Marriage Counselors, Laura Doyle

    -The Surrendered Wife, Laura Doyle

    -Fascinating Womanhoood, Helen Andelin

    Trust me girls, I’m a doctor. Really. Put this book down and hand it to your husband or boyfriend in 3…2…1…

    If she reads some of those books, both of you can get that “us against all the other families and couples in our social group” feeling. I doubt it would cause any harm or poison her with feminitst “girl power”.

    And make sure you get and read BPPs book yourself. And be reassured that guys like BPP would tell you it is OK to go slow in Married Red Pill Game and make sure you don’t make too many fast scary moves in the relationship. That extinction of behaviors does take time, and you still need to establish your own frame with solid foundations.

    Good Luck.

  20. Finally, someone more skilled than I (hey I suck at expressing myself well) has given a red pill review of David Deida’s “The Way of the Superior Man” in a way that summarizes the major principles.

    TWSM is a hard book to like because it puts a man in an arena (Teddy Roosevelt style) where he actually does have that man’s burden of performance. Unless you can do that in a PDA (passionate, dynamic and authentic) congruent way, then the book sucks. It makes it too hard to move on, and it gets frustrating.

    It is also is more apt for long term relationships but still shows the essence of how someone like Giacomo Cassanova (libertine, PUA) operated in directed short term relationships with women.

    The link that follows is an article on Girls Chase website. It is laden with cookies and will prompt you to pay up after 10 articles per month. The articles are generally well written and give actionable advice for game. The links at the end of the review are good. Sometimes you can erase the cookies from the site on your browser and keep reading, sometimes not. It is not a malicious click bait site.

    http://www.girlschase.com/content/book-review-way-superior-man-david-deida

    @EhIntellect—check out that link. The author of the article states: “And it’s one of the most powerful and influential books I’ve read recently on how to tap into masculine energy and become a penetrative force in our world today.”

  21. Q re EhIntellect’s situation (hang in there dude – I don’t have married man expertise to offer but it seems to me like you’re doing an awesome job trying to handle a difficult situation – just need to keep at it).

    I totally get HABD’s points about how the words don’t matter and her hindbrain only responds to actions, but presumably at some level you need words to establish your expectations? Like you can punish by actions/withdrawing attention but you need to tell her what your expectations are so she can follow them?

    Like the other guy who just posted @TheMarquis (great job sticking to it there too dude) – if he doesn’t like his wife drinking before sex, then he can punish her by actions/withdrawing attention but he still needs to make it clear using his words that that is the thing he doesn’t like right? And praise with both words and rewarding actions when she fulfils expectations?

    YaReally (if still reading lol), Sentient HABD Wala Scray Hank Forge & PUA generally

    Not been too active recently but a couple of mini-FRs:

    1. At a coffee shop this morning, female late 20s/early 30s HB6ish manager, and 4-5 male baristas. Morning rush so manager was also making coffee and at one point I saw one of the baristas (the biggest one – he looked like a linebacker) stand behind her and casually hold her shoulders with his hands for a couple of seconds while saying something. I couldn’t see their faces but the body language was totally relaxed for both of them.

    A few minutes later she finished her shift and walked out and one of the other baristas (on a break, standing just outside the door) said something jokingly, smiled and tried to grab her arm as she walked past, but he didn’t reach (she didn’t try to dodge).

    I’m still not entirely sure what to make of this – I don’t quite understand the dynamic. But I mention it more as an example of how my perceptions are getting better and better as I do more of this stuff. I know it definitely says something about how that team works and how comfortable the men on that team are with expressing physicality with their boss (I assume she was the manager anyway – she was dressed differently).

    2. Was in the Big City for a two day trip and managed one solo night out.

    Interesting because it was my first time properly with insta-wings. Two young guys at a club (it turned out they were bartenders at another bar owned by the same company). One opened me at the bar asking for the time (bizarre in this age of phones since he had his own phone) and then two minutes later he bought me and another solo guy at the bar beers. Other guy ignored free beer while I thanked him and drank mine.

    We talked a bit although was very loud. Then I bought both of them shots which they ordered and then we pretty much ended up hanging out together the rest of the night. It was a pretty average bar but one of the guys wanted to get a VIP table and bottle service so I contributed $100 to that..my first time at a VIP table – there weren’t that many hot girls or much exclusively – it was just a table and a rope. We didn’t bring any girls back to the table but we did invite one cool guy from the smoking area to join us and hang out and he did.

    Reminds me of that VIP table RSD video that YaReally was talking about. Yeah sure, the bar was distinctly average (but crowded) and wasn’t a high end venue or anything but as the table owner, I was cool with inviting a cool guy to hang with us even though he brought no girls, and we’d have actively appreciated and invited over any guy who brought girls to our table and was cool. We didn’t even end up finishing most of the booze at the table you know? But this seems to confirm what YaReally was saying about that video.

    I opened quite a few girls but I was getting progressively drunker and it was very loud so didn’t have much conversation. Probably because I was getting drunk but I didn’t notice as many IOIs as usual although all the girls opened well enough (except the HB7 who made EC walking past our table (not the VIP table – we had seats before that) and then didn’t take my hand when I kind of half-heartedly reached out and tried to stop her.

    Only interesting set was a solo mid-40s HB6 dancing by herself – slim and decent looking but way above average age for the place. I opened her and she opened well and was initiating conversation etc (she even said she didn’t expect everyone at the bar to be so young lol) but she wasn’t giving any compliance physically – like I’d take her hand and she’d take it away but stay there and keep talking to me etc (but it was so loud it was difficult to talk). I don’t really dance but I even tried dancing a bit with her but no go. I wandered off after a few minutes, back to my table

    In retrospect I was just too drunk to think clearly about the next step – I should have taken her to the smoking area as venue change and then had a conversation and gone from there (not back to the VIP table – too loud). I think I already had some attraction just from her responses (but not DDB eyes or anything) so should have been lots of comfort, laser, and kino escalation in the smoking area with some DHV stories. This was just at the border between the early part of the night and the Pulling Time part too..so if I played it right I could have pulled her.

    Oh well, next time.

  22. @EhIntellect

    got a little more time this morning… (not really…lol… but at least i don’t have a bunch of meetings til noon… and you are an excellent case study for all the men reading along at home…lol… but not kidding on that… and props on putting in the work… AND being willing to post your experiences…(and i second @Forge on it being fun to follow along on your boys learning this shit… props for that too…))

    you seem to be having trouble understanding that the ‘content’ in your words doesn’t do ANYTHING wrt a girl’s hindbrain… except indicate to it that you are beta…lol… bc you are relying (have an expectation) on that content to communicate your boundaries… as opposed to ‘just get it’… here’s the link:

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

    read the whole thing (at least a couple times…), but here’s an important point for your situ…

    Many men will complain that they hate the presumption that they need to be a mind reader and ideally women ought to just communicate overtly and directly – just as a reason-based man would communicate. The problem is that in doing so it changes the dynamic for hypergamy. As I’ve stated so often, women say they want the truth, but they never want full disclosure. Hypergamy will not be pandered to, and will not be negotiated with.

    that ‘overt communication’ is the ‘content’ in your words… sooo, her hypergamy DEMANDS that she (her hindbrain) NOT consider ANYTHING in that content as relevant… except to ‘prove the negative’ (of you as alpha stud)…

    you not getting this concept is not unusual… it’s probably the hardest concept to internalize about girls (of which ‘wives’ are one…lol… = AWALT)… bc ‘talking to them logically’ works fine on their forebrains… and that’s where their personality lives… and where you have to interact with them every day on the day-to-day business of living your life together (in an LTR/marriage)… buuut, they also have their hindbrains in play/’on’ at some level ALL THE TIME…

    they constantly ping their environment for alpha stud cues… and when they get a ‘ping’, they HAVE to follow it up… that’s wired in… (and that followup is just her running her rolodex until she gets a fail from the man)… and that’s why ‘attraction is not a choice’… if you keep passing her shit tests like a boss, the ONLY thing stopping sex from happening is lack of opportunity… (ie bad logistics…)… or lack of escalation by the man…

    this ‘girl’s hindbrain only responds to your actions’ is actually a good thing (hard as shit to accept/learn how to deal with though, since you are a man… being logical and all…lol… and not just living in the moment/emotional), bc you can keep your ‘content’ the same… and just change your ‘behaviors’ that you do in response to HER actions/behaviors… that behavior change is pretty simple really…

    and that’s just ‘do i WANT more of THIS behavior?’…

    if yes = give her any kind of attention (good, bad or indifferent… and ‘overt communication’ of any type is ‘good’ to her hindbrain)…

    if no = give her NO attention (however you decide to do that… and @AR is right about having to leave the situ if she pings one of your hot buttons…)

    and all THAT is just basic operant conditioning… YOUR attention (positive or negative) = her reward… to model her behavior… and your ‘non-attention’ = ‘punishment’ (is really just lack of reinforcing the behaviors that you do NOT want… and that’s an important concept to understand, bc it takes longer to extinguish a behavior… and there will be an ‘extinction burst’…)

    and while SJF is right about the “presence and affection for her good behavior.” being ‘better attention’… her hindbrain doesn’t really care if it is getting ‘negative attention’… bc to a girl, it’s ALL just more emotional validation…

    so try this to try to understand a girl’s hindbrain… at least as a thought experiment…lol

    watch tv… and turn off the sound… can you still understand what is going on?… how?… = the ACTIONS (includes body language/subcomms/behavior) of the characters… (that’s what her hindbrain is doing all the time…)

    sooo, you are flipping around the channels with the sound off… and you find two channels that are of interest – ‘beta bonanza(tm)’ and ‘alpha fundamentals(tm)’ – and they have two similar shows on at the same time, so you flip between them…

    BB channel has a show on where the girl is yelling at the man in front of some kids at a table… you can tell that she is yelling at the kids too… he just sits there politely giving her his attention…

    does this look like he approves of her behavior?… can you even tell what he is thinking?…

    you flip to the AF channel… similar situ, except at the beginning of her yelling, he gets up [back turns her] and leaves the house (without ANY talking to her = no overt communication attempt)… she tries to stop him verbally… and then when that doesn’t get him to engage her, she tries to stop him physically… and without ANY talking (= overt communication attempt… bc he ‘just gets it’ and understands that her hindbrain will sees ANY attempt at overt communication to her as ‘attention’ and a win…), he just leaves… and she starts crying…

    you flip back to BB channel…

    the scene has changed… the man is getting his coat on and goes to leave the house… the girl tries to stop him verbally first… that works and he gives her some attention… he talks to her, then he starts to leave again… and she tries to stop him physically… he ends up leaving … she returns to the house and sits ‘in anger’ (which you can tell bc of her body language)

    she calls someone on the phone… then she starts talking and ends up yelling… she dials and talks and yells several times… then she eventually just cries… and waits until he gets back…

    you flip to the AF channel… the girl is dialing the phone… she waits and then tries again… and again…bc the other person is not picking up… she cries…

    which situ impacted the girl’s hindbrain more?… in which did she ‘win’…

    ANY attention (especially ‘overt communication’ of some type) is a reward for her… = validation for her behavior… and an indication that that rolodex page is effective at getting that validation… at least some of the time… (which makes that behavior harder to extinguish bc of variable schedule reinforcement)…

    draft your game plan… then just execute consistently until you have success… and in the mean time, hide the knives…lol

    good luck!

  23. …and while SJF is right about the “presence and affection for her good behavior.” being ‘better attention’… her hindbrain doesn’t really care if it is getting ‘negative attention’… bc to a girl, it’s ALL just more emotional validation…

    This is an excellent distinction pointed out by HABD for EhIntellect. It is not paradoxical for the following reason: EhIntellect is operating at a higher level, than other newbies starting out in MRP game. He is a good husband, good provider and good father with Alpha Qualities. He is not working on the low-sex paradigm. He has more to work with, more capital in the bank and can afford to carefully be bold with bad feelings. With the roller coaster of emotions. When things aren’t working out so good, typically the man feels bad (or scared) when the wife has bad emotions. (you should still hide the knives.) But those bad emotions are drivers to, just like HABD pointed out. I know I had an epiphany when I discovered that (Engendering Bad emotions with Boldness) and kept Frame in that situation–and if you handle it well, it just blows over the next morning as if nothing ever happened. That is normal operating procedure. So it is not paradoxical that the bad feelings are emotional validation in this situation. EhIntellect is operating on higher level (Advanced Dread Game), better game (well beyond low level denial of sex). And that is good. There is more capital to invest in bolder game. (But don’t hesitate to go slow and perceive and understand things in real time as they are happening. The baseball will slow down as you get better, and even turn into a softball).

    At a more basic level (denial of sex) there are Options and Consequences as spelled out in Dread Level 4 by BluePillProfessor.

    EhIntellect needs to convert these concepts to higher level, setting limits and not accepting shitty behavior in operant conditioning. The overarching praxeology is still the same for extinguishing the behavior. So for those following along at home BPP specifically refers to the following discussion in regards to denial of sex, but EhIntellect is on a different mission as regards to getting compliance and non-shitty behavior.

    (Disclaimer: non red pill people need to realize this is not just manipulation, it is Making Things Better for the Man, the Woman and the Children. It is in everyone’s best interest that the family dynamic is more healthy. It is in her best interest for her safety and the benefit of the children. No one is trying to cheat or get away with something. No one is harmed except feminists or egalitarian-equalist’s feelings. )

    All of the following is from BluePillProfessors book ($5.99 and a couple hours of reading. What are you going to do about that?) I’m not going to blockquote it because that dis-allows bold formatting

    https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/

    “”Time” is a reward characterized by your physical presence in the room. “Attention” is a reward characterized by a rapt husband listening carefully to his wife, often while holding her tenderly. “However, don’t be confused! “Affection” and “Presence” are very different from “Time” and “Attention.” These are the all-important you that women blather on about. Lots and lots of women have divorced their husbands for the nebulous reason that he is not “Present” and most guys haven’t a clue what they mean. To be clear, your “Presence” means that you are giving her affection and your positive influence and positive emotions, and that you are acting like a good husband with a loving wife. When you are not “Present,” you are not giving your wife good feelings, and you are mostly cold and distant and uninterested in her or her cute prattling. You CAN be “Present” and STILL leave the house while she is ranting and raving! Simply take her in your arms, give her a warm kiss, and tell her “I need to go to the gym sweetie, I will be back in a couple hours.” I think you only withdraw your “Affection” and “Presence” for repeated sexual denials. You begin by withdrawing your time and attention and later, if that doesn’t work you begin withdrawing affection and presence.”

    Here I skipped a part of the chapter that I previously linked to above. If you missed it Here:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/07/29/the-cardinal-rule-of-sexual-strategies/comment-page-6/#comment-165645

    The rest of that chapter is good on Prisoners Dilemma:

    THE HUSBAND’S DILEMMA

    Marriage is just as simple as the Prisoner’s Dilemma game. We could call it: “The Husband’s Dilemma.” Each player has a “nice” card and a “mean” card. Each person plays one card each round. The best strategy that has been developed over millions of computer simulations is to ALWAYS play your “nice” card first, then respond tit for tat. That is, you play your nice card, and then she plays her mean card then the next card you play is your mean card. You KEEP PLAYING your mean card until she plays her nice card. THEN you play your nice card, so long as she continues playing her nice card. Tit-for-Tat. Reset the nice and mean card every day! Start every day trying to play your nice card. Only play your mean card if she plays hers.

    How does this look in a marriage? All of us have a “Nice Card” and a “Mean Card” because of this unbreakable rule:

    MEN CONTROL COMMITMENT;

    WOMEN CONTROL SEXUAL ACCESS (ed.: OR FEMALE MANIPULATORY BEHAVIOR–for the Good or the Bad of the principles).

    In order to help you understand this Level better, here are the cheat codes:
    Husband:

    1. Nice: Masculine, validating presence with your time, affection, and attention.
    2.Mean: Ignore, remove time, and attention and eventually affection.

    Wife:

    1. Nice: Sexual Compliance! (nice behavior)
    2. Mean: Hard Sexual Denial (shitty behavior)

    Based on the Prisoner’s Dilemma, and some basic Psychology, I advocate withholding your time, attention, and eventually your affection, goodwill, and positive frame for sexual denials beginning at Dread Level 4.

    I also advocate that since you now have a busy life that you experiment with withdrawing your time and attention for bitchy, shitty behavior but BE CAREFUL! The results are all over the board from completely positive to wife suddenly moves out of the house. (Ed.: or pulls out the knives)

    Again, please note the difference between withdrawing your time and attention and withdrawing your presence and affection.

    Withdraw time and attention : [After listening closely for a while]: “I am busy sweetheart and don’t have time for this right now, but I will listen to you more when I get back.”

    Withdraw presence and affection: [Without taking the time to listen]: “Bye.”

    This is a very basic operant conditioning technique. By providing clear consequences to behavior (withholding sex and giving a “Hard No”), you work over time to change that behavior.
    However, I had to clarify this even further on the blog because some guys were taking this advice way to literally. I think a few wives thought there was some weird mind control thing going on as their husbands schizophrenically switched from passionate to suddenly a passive-aggressive bitch who gets a denial and then leaves her sitting in bed while he runs off to the bar to hit on women. Yes, several guys really did that before I clarified it in my original post on Dread. I don’t think we lost any of them, but it was touch and go for a bit.

    So a couple caveats and explanations:

    First, this is supposed to be built up slowly over months, and the connection in her mind—
    and yours—between withholding sex and you nope-ing out of there is NOT supposed to be a direct link. It is simply that you have better things to do than to put up with a screechtard blue baller who is not attracted to you. Of course, you can be a little bit more overt with a succession of hard sexual denials. There is nothing wrong with her knowing that you are angry, but you don’t want to go sulk!

    This is why Level 3 “GET BUSY” comes first! You have to build a fun, exciting life with lots of options and to get busy BEFORE you start on Level 4. If you don’t lay the groundwork first, then she will see this (correctly) as you being a butt hurt little boy denied his candy.

    Withholding emotional and physical validation by withholding your “presence” and “affection” IS AN EXTREME STEP AND SHOULD ONLY BE TAKEN FOR EXTREME REASONS.

    There are several key words in the Level 4 directions: First is the word BEGIN. “Begin” means…..Start. It doesn’t mean get busy (Level 3), and then move to Level 4 where you suddenly turn into a total dick. Believe it or not, a couple guys actually more or less overtly declared that their wife would – “suck my dick every day or I will completely ignore you and have nothing to do with you bitch.” Yes, a couple guys actually did that, and yes, she actually did! For a while, anyway, but it created some, well, “problems” not much later in the relationship. We are still studying why that might be the case, but now at least you guys know before you try that. Don’t be a dick when you are running Dread game!

    Be a cool guy who has lots of things to do and is busy and active.

    Here is my one and only specific suggestion, but again, you need to tailor this for your marriage. If you are on the sex once a month plan or twice a month plan then initiate one night. If turned down, play it cool. Don’t be an asshole! Take a middle road path. Lower the temperature, so she knows you are unhappy but WITHOUT being a whiny bitch about it. You are unhappy as a MAN whose woman has displeased him. Don’t forget that and don’t be a bitch. Just simply turn down the ardor a bit. Leave the room, stay quiet the rest of the night and mostly ignore her. The next day take longer to answer her calls. Remove your Time and Attention first. The next time cut back a bit on your affection. Pull back and give her room to come to you. Ultimately, after weeks and months of this you will want to remove even more of your affection and you will start to “check out” which in “Womane-eeze means you are not “Present.”

    Then….come home or at least by the next day and play your nice card! Act as if nothing has happened because nothing HAS happened. Today is a new day.

    When you play your nice card, give her plenty of opportunity to play her mean card. If she does, then play your mean card, rinse, and repeat. Gradually play your mean card for longer and longer periods over weeks and months. Eventually, after several months of no improvement you may want to begin pulling away your presence and affection and displaying clear indications of your displeasure. You should notice a difference fairly soon but be patient.

    Another tactic that you may use to shake up the routine after a sexual denial is to change your basic “affection routines” for the rest of the day, but be ERY careful. One guy was playing his “Mean Card” after a sexual denial, the next evening after dinner, contrary to his usual practice, he left for his martial arts club without kissing his wife goodbye. She had an existential crying melt-down. All it took was for him to be a bit cool and not kiss her one time when he left the house and the “Main Event” happened right there, so be careful.

    The “Main Event” is a concept developed in several posts on Married Red Pill. It is the climactic battle when a woman who is resisting the changes the man is making suddenly breaks down crying. This happens when she suddenly loses the comfort of “knowing” that her man would never leave her. That is, she gets “The Dread.” If the husband can provide the comfort that she needs in the moment, this often resets the relationship overnight.

    So, the plan is that after a denial, cut back a bit on your displays of affection and see what happens. Stop calling her at the same time every day. Don’t text her until later. Be slower to respond. Be less available. Don’t favor her with that warm smile that you always give her before you leave. Whatever. The point is to shake it up a bit. Through all this you must remain the rock. Remain strong and fatherly, but no more Disney Princess Twu Wuv bullshit. If she wants to be a Princess, then she is just going to have to upgrade you to her Prince Charming. If she wants to be the Queen, then that means you are the King. You know who the Queen is right? She has one job! She is the King’s bitch. Are you the King?

    Please notice, I am not suggesting that you ignore her completely after a sexual denial, at least at first! I am merely suggesting that you dial it back a bit at first. Dial it back for a day, then return your attention, then initiate sex again. If you are turned down again in succession (yes, we have seen this story before, and we can name that song in 1 note!) even though you have been affirming and upbeat for a while then do it again, this time with a bit more withdrawing. Perhaps after a couple repetitions of this, you actually leave for a time and go pray the Rosary. The next time you leave and go to the mall for a little longer. The next time you go to a bar and have a few drinks. The next time perhaps you “accidently” leave your phone at home. This is all part or YOUR MAP and you need to develop YOUR plan.

    Take it slow. For example, before you escalate to leaving the house, you should get in the habit of leaving the room and doing something interesting in your own house. The next day perhaps you don’t take your phone to work, and you get busy at work, so you don’t call or text her during the day.

    The point is BEGIN to disengage. DO NOT BE SCHIZOPHRENIC AND SUDDENLY DISENGAGE COMPLETELY. Do it slowly and increase the pressure (by decreasing the time/attention/affection) over weeks, NOT days. Build the connection in your mind, and hers that there are consequences to her being in control of your sexuality and denying you. Just don’t do it all at once!

    Another clarification I had to make is that “sexual availability” does NOT mean she is down to fuck (DTF) 24/7 every day of the week. There are times when your wife is NOT available to you, but this is not always a “Hard Denial.” For example, I have a tacit agreement with my wife that I will not initiate sex every day. She has always maintained that she enjoys it much more when we wait a day, building up tension and so on. Since I am in my late 40’s, I have to agree with her. So I initiate just about every other day. She is receptive, and only rarely turns me down on that day- and almost always with something along the lines of “I am tired, darling. Let’s do this tomorrow so I can get into it.”

    My response? A paternal kiss on the forehead, and THEN I act as if nothing has happened. I remain upbeat, affirming, warm, affectionate, strong, etc. before leaving the room to do my own thing). Why do I do this? BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A SEXUAL DENIAL. THIS IS PERHAPS A SEXUAL DEFLECTION, OR SEXUAL DELAY. IT IS NOT A HARD “NO” HOWEVER.

    YOU WANT this level of communication with your wife. In fact, you WANT the level of communication where you communicate your intent with your eyes, and she responds nonverbally. I can’t tell you the number of times my wife has seen me give her a smoldering look, and she responds by closing the distance, settling into my arms, kissing me and saying: “Tomorrow.” A couple times I managed to say it along with her because I already knew the answer. THAT is Red Pill communication fellows. Direct, to the point, and no, or few words, necessary.

    Daniel Rose, author of The Sex God Method recommends this course of action for this type of “denial.” Specifically he suggest giving her an Agree and Amplify and something along the lines of: “Oh my baby is sore from all that pounding last night. Don’t worry dear, we can wait another day and let you heal.”

    So let us be clear and distinguish (again) between withholding affection, and withholding time and attention. You withhold “Affection” and “Presence” by leaving and not taking your phone and by acting cold and aloof and by actively demonstrating your displeasure. You withhold your “Time” and “Attention” by leaving and/or ignoring because you are busy. These are two very different tactics so be aware and pay attention to what you are doing.

    I think you can withhold time and attention for any behavior that displeases you, but I think you ONLY withhold affection and presence for hard sexual denials, and ONLY for sexual denials, not for Shit Testing, being bitchy, rude, or things like refusing to go on a diet, refusing to get an abortion or any other reason. (ed.: but here is where EhIntellect should actually withhold affection and presence–different context specifically for operant conditioning–he is working on Advanced Dread Game). Withholding affection in such cases has very limited success. Dread Game works for sex, and it works because the one thing she controls is sex, and the only thing you have in your control is your commitment. So if she plays her one “mean” card, then you are forced to play your one “mean” card. Read up on “Shit Tests” and “Holding Frame” for dealing with a bitchy, rude woman and reserve Advanced Dread Game for sexual denials.

    I do not think you withhold affection (or even time and attention) for Starfish (lazy, uninspired) sex. A woman can respond to your advances by submitting to them, but the only way to truly get her to “like it” is to be a high value man yourself and to fuck her good, which has nothing to do with changing her behavior. Thus operant conditioning is mostly useless for the Starfish. You can get compliance from your wife, but if you want to get her hot and dripping, that is entirely on you. Be attractive. Don’t be unattractive.

    I do not think you use this tactic at all during shark week or if there is a legitimate reason to deny intimacy. What are you conditioning if your wife is physically unable to have sex with you? What is the purpose of withholding affection for a behavior that cannot be performed at the moment due to illness or infirmity (or a bloody mess)?

    I do not think you withhold affection for a single night of “I’m tired, let’s make it up tomorrow.” You may want to withhold your time and even attention but not because you are angry or upset. You withhold your time and attention because you are busy—and because laying there and cuddling after a sexual denial is just about the worst thing you can do! Of course as stated above, I do not think this is an actual “sexual denial” most of the time, although it may very well be—that is for YOU to decide on your own in the context of your own relationship.

    Finally, DO NOT use any type of advanced Dread Game in marriage for the first time when you wife is pregnant. DO NOT USE DREAD WITH A PREGNANT WOMAN. The reports are horrifying of marriages exploding when even the tiniest amounts of Dread are introduced. Pregnant women rarely have existential melt downs at Level 1 when their man suddenly starts standing up to them, but if he starts lifting weights and getting in shape and getting HIS shit together (rather than getting shit together for the baby) then it can ignite a marriage ending Shit Storm. Don’t do it, Dad.

    Finally what do you do when your wife calls you out on your sudden change in behavior? “Are you going to be mean to me all the time if we don’t have sex every day?” I think when she brings this behavior into the open, it is not out of line to bring it all the way into the open. If you can say very calmly:

    “I am not mad, just disappointed, but frankly I have better things to do than to hang out with a woman who is not attracted to me.” Then smile grimly and give her a brotherly, passionless kiss and leave the house. If you can turn down her golden v vagina, and SHOW her in that moment that its power over you is fading quickly then expect a powerful reaction from your wife. Let us know what happens when you get back, and for the love of God do NOT react to her whining, bitching and moaning. Do not fail the ensuing Shit Test storm. Only a fool argues with a woman. Just leave and if she tries to keep you from leaving just do “broken record,” and repeat yourself “I have better things to do than to hang around here with a woman who is not attracted to me.” Note how this works when you really do have better things to do!

    The readings at Level 4 are the “The Rational Male” and “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. The Rational Male is the intellectual justification for the manosphere and provides a comprehensive understanding of female behavior. It is difficult and substantive. How to Win Friends and Influence People is not exactly a “Red Pill” book, but it is a classic and exceptional resource for men increasing their social sphere that is a fairly light and fluffy read and actually delivers on the title.

    Conclusion: Dread Level 4:
    I think you use the ultimate tactic- withholding affection and time, and ultimately your emotional support and validation, in response to repeated Hard Sexual Denials. This should be used in a sparing, measured way. I think you can experiment with withholding time and attention for bitchy, bad behavior, but I recommend you do NOT withdraw your emotional support for such behavior. Be the rock and use your head with this and not the little one. Define what a “Hard Sexual Denial” means to YOU and YOUR marriage and act accordingly. Be consistent, develop your goals, and gradually work towards them.
     
    TLDR: Begin conditioning your availability, time, attention, and ultimately your affection and presence with her sexual (sexual) availability to you. You are busy and have a full life, and you don’t have time for a sex denying, unpleasant harpy screechtard.”

  24. Culum

    Morning rush so manager was also making coffee and at one point I saw one of the baristas (the biggest one – he looked like a linebacker) stand behind her and casually hold her shoulders with his hands for a couple of seconds while saying something. I couldn’t see their faces but the body language was totally relaxed for both of them.

    A few minutes later she finished her shift and walked out and one of the other baristas (on a break, standing just outside the door) said something jokingly, smiled and tried to grab her arm as she walked past, but he didn’t reach (she didn’t try to dodge).

    I’m still not entirely sure what to make of this – I don’t quite understand the dynamic.

    As often as not the dudes are gay or super beta hug boys… this beta hugging is rampant among this set (and hipsters)… It’s mutual comfort and safe… NON SEXUAL despite the touching…

    This is why I say you need to differentiate your kino in places like this and in crowded bars where there is just a ton of normal incidental crowd kino…

    So things like pulling, physically moving, confining her arms, wagging a handful of hair at the base of the neck, hugging but pulling her up and in accentuating stomach contact, then running your hands down her sides, linger on the hips and just for good measure a discerning squeeze of the little tiny bit of fat they all have at that spot – then a double pat of it as you break contact… You have to do more to communicate your frame and desire in these places.

    Only interesting set was a solo mid-40s HB6 dancing by herself – slim and decent looking but way above average age for the place. I opened her and she opened well and was initiating conversation etc (she even said she didn’t expect everyone at the bar to be so young lol) but she wasn’t giving any compliance physically – like I’d take her hand and she’d take it away but stay there and keep talking to me etc (but it was so loud it was difficult to talk). I don’t really dance but I even tried dancing a bit with her but no go. I wandered off after a few minutes, back to my table

    These are tough pulls especially late because she knows exactly what is up, she is the easy mark, and no lose she hooks up or gets a ton of feelz/validation… yeah move to quiet and downplay your desire… get her chasing a bit. One place to back of the strong desire vibe.

  25. @Culum Struan

    In regards to your questions about EhIntellect and TheMarquis’ situations, their wives know the score. The know they are behaving badly. They just don’t know how to correct it any more than a 7 year old knows how to redirect their bad behavior.

    Marquis’s wife is playing hide the magical vagina and is several chess moves ahead of him. She knows what she is doing with her female sub-communication. EhIntellect’s wife knows she is not in control (as witnessed by the frequent apologies). She wants to take back power with an adolescent skill set, but she knows she is coming up short and it frustrates her. Explaining that overtly will make her resent the instructions as much as a parent telling a teenager not to do teenager things.

    The girls are just playing the cards they have in their hands. It is up to the men to re-direct their behaviors with actions. It is up to the man to change them by operant condition and then, Guess What? She ends up with: it was her that came to her senses and changed rather than the husbands getting their way. When she comes around, she will give herself credit for the change. It is much more real and powerful that way.

    This differs in LTR Game from PUA game, because it is actually the man’s fault for getting himself in this position over a long period of time, rather than the fault of the woman per se. It is her fault for behaving badly, but the man allowed it out of ignorance for too long a time and the women now behave that way from previous poor operant conditioning. Guess who is going to win that blame game if someone is keeping score? The woman.

    It is OK when things reach a boiling point to be overt in words, but usually when things are beyond showing in a big blowout (including what EhIntellect is going through–it is OK for him to show anger and be overt, but it needs to be kept mostly in check for the reasons mentioned by HABD). A flash of indignation on the man’s part and over telling them should be reserved for a once in a while thing and it should and can be advantageous at times, but as always cats are not dogs. And the cats know how to play the game better.

    As an aside, noted essay for TheMarquis:

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/04/23/relationship-game-wife-sex/

  26. @forge @culum @PUA

    Forge –> Well I am much more push than pull. But I think my pushes come across as harsher than they are in person — they are generally really playful.

    –sort of FR lol–

    also made up a story of having a marathon sex session with this girl I met at a restaurant, ditching her, her getting pissed, and me going to smooth things over and it not going well lol. Told it in two parts — first was me telling about hooking up with her and then the second was about me trying to get the girl not mad at me.

    Was just for fun, kind of spur of the moment, but everyone believed me. Actually worked out really well since the first day I brought it up my hair was really messy and I looked out of it — two people I talked to about it thought the chick may have drugged me.

    Key thing though about making his shit up was that I didn’t puke up the story. I laughed a bunch as a told it…you know, like you would with a real story that happened where you thing back to what happened, have to pause to remember a few details or whatever. Then also, listen to what people are saying. You can kind of mold the story to their expectations. So for example, everyone warned me this chick would probably shoot me if I went back, which is why when I told the last part of he story about a week later of me going back to her, I had it go really bad. Since everyone expected that, it seemed real to them.

    Basically, you can get away with some stretches in your story if it aligns with your audience’s expectations. If it goes drastically against their expectations, even if it is technically more realistic, they will get suspicious.

    You have to tell the story WITH your audience, and make some of it up on the fly, rather then coming up with all of it beforehand and then read of a script.

    Another thing is to get girls on board early on. Girls fall for confidence, so even if there are some inconsistencies in your story, girls will believe you if you are confident enough. Then you bring those girls along with you as you tell the story, and the fact that they believe you helps verify your tall tale.

    In my case, my boss heard the story first, and she would bring it up whenever anyone was around. It was **really** funny how invested she was in my story. It was as if she was living vicariously through me. A great RP moment just seeing how casually she talked about sex and how much she liked hearing the story, almost as if it was a soap opera.

    That’s a thing I’ve noticed. Guys talk about sex more to brag and show off, since its actually an accomplishment for a man to get laid, whereas women are much more nonchalant about it since they have sex on tap. Its not that women don’t get really engaged or emotional or turned on when they chat about sex and hookups, its just there is a very different vibe to it I’ve noticed.

    The chick I “hooked up” with was black, so my boss was warning me all about how crazy black chicks can be. She got me some “extra dark” candies as a joke. And to sell my story a bit more I got a selfie online of a black girl showing her ass, and showed that picture to people, including my boss. Anyway, as I was telling the story to some other people, my boss blurted “he showed me her butt!” giggle giggle. And she’s in her 40’s lol.

    It was soooooo funny seeing how often my boss reverted to a little giggly girl through the story. Great reference though of just casually chatting about sex and getting girl’s reactions from it.

    Anyway, everyone believed my story (and actually there was another one I made up about banging a chick and her sister walks in and I tried to push for a threesome but he sister didn’t exactly agree lol). I remember one dude was asking how it went with the girl and I said “which one, the black girl or the spanish girl?” and he said “man, I can’ keep up with you.” He said I was like Austin powers, banging everything that moves lol.

    Cool thing about this dude is he is fairly alpha. He tells storys about his time in the army picking up chicks, and he’s married now, but I’ve pick up on that he still sleeps around now. Point is though he believed my story and was invested in it as well, which is a good sign on subcoms. He was also trying to get me a job in the bigger city, which is a good sign as well.

    So major takeaway from this is that I have a good ability at making up stories on the spot, should improve that even more, and that my subcomms are good enough that me being a notorious philanderer are convincing everyone I talk to.

    Its just reaally really funny how invested everyone was and how they were giving me advice. Also, every married guy was like “don’t get married. I miss doing stuff like you are doing” lol

  27. Sentient @culum

    As often as not the dudes are gay or super beta hug boys… this beta hugging is rampant among this set (and hipsters)… It’s mutual comfort and safe… NON SEXUAL despite the touching…

    Have seen this in more than one coffee place. The men act like little brothers to the women.
    Culum, when you see this tell yourself “He’s just her brother / cousin” or “he’s her gay friend”.
    Because that’s all it is.

  28. All this before I could read any comments. Oh man. I’m dealing as best I can, with what I’m reading, with what I got, as it happens. Thanks for your help.

    Home after work: nice talk, she walks past and stops stares and kisses me, then to making out in hallway. Really hot frenching, if the kids weren’t around there’d been sex in the laundry room. I’ve been thinking hard about am I always the aggressor? No, she really wants me, mostly.

    We have a nice evening with friends visiting and kids around. Happy conversation. I’ve changed (stop laughing). I’ve been sucking oxygen out of rooms for so long it’s all I knew. I’m authentically relaxing today. Good things are coming and that requires me to listen, chill, and respond to others in a way to draw them closer to me.

    My friend looks at me and tells me I’m the most relaxed person he’s ever seen. I softly say thank you. He buys some of my art for a Christmas present. It was really nice to peacefully lift the room by just being there, no snark, overtalk. Everyone’s happy.

    I’m wiped and fall asleep with the wife in bed.

    SNAP! goes the bedroom lamp. She wakes me at midnight, standing by the bed, pillow in hand, we need to sleep apart. (Oh shit, it’s go time! Fuck me, y’all have stoked my paranoia.) “Honey…talk to me.” She asks me what I want from her, and although she’s crying, anger is behind her eyes. She says she doesn’t even recognize me any more, after 23 years. She doesn’t want to leave me, desires me so much and she doesn’t know what is going on. The last 6 months have been something from a movie, it’s unreal. I’ve been manipulating her. AM I MENTALLY ILL, AM I SCHIZOPHRENIC??!!

    All I can tell is she’s got a pillow….behind it?

    I’m trying to chill, understand precisely my options, escape routes. Sitting up slowly now. I agree sincerely it’s been weird but what she’s seeing is me changing, really changing for the better. “I’ve been retooling myself and it comes out as dysfunction at times, I’ve been making mistakes…but, listen…I’ve turned the corner…yesterday. I’ve been confronting my weaknesses by exposing them to reality, and I feel horrible that there’s collateral damage. It’s impossible to believe that I can do this, this change, so quickly, for the better, but it’s happening now, honey. Right. Now. Remember what (friend) said about me tonight?” She nods. “Being relaxed is a progress for a guy like me. I must change. This calm is the start. I can do this, be a better husband, dad, lover. ” She agrees.

    “This is who I’ve always wanted to be. The guy who lifts all spirits when he enters the room. The guy who sits quietly and listens to others.”

    Her, now smiling: You want to be God.

    “Honey, after our last blowout, I had to do something, fast, it was tearing us apart. I need to control the situation better. (Sts. HABD, SJF, AR, pray for me) Babe, listen. What I want you to do: I want you to feel authentically beautiful, see yourself as I see you, the same woman I married long ago. (Oh boy) I want you to be proud I am your husband. When we go out, stay in, I want you to enjoy all of us, of me. I want you to feel joyful you’re mine. I want you to see yourself as the mother whose kids are the envy of the community. Not just a mom, but when our kids leave for good, others will wonder, ‘This man doesn’t happen by accident, I want to meet his mother.’ You’re sending beacons of light to others. I want you to see others envy our passion, us.”

    Wife: “I like that.”

    I pull back a bit and she sits in bed. She tells me she’s scared at times during sex. It’s been leaving bruises and rope burns and she’s terrified. I agree to ease up. She says she hid the ropes awhile ago (I hadn’t noticed)…but…today found an old soft robe belt, and it turned her on…so she kept it. She likes the rough stuff, but I need to be more careful. Now I’m up slowly, turned at her a bit, oh boy, let’s make this go…

    I’m relaxing now. Honey…ahem…my penis moved. Should I be sorry?? Heh. She laughs and shakes her head. (I’m trying my best to deal with this!!!). We’re talk a bit then she stops and says “I know what you’re doing…and if this continues, it’ll work.” I point to my face: What?! This guy!? A couple minutes later, she’s blowing me and the sex ensues. Really good sex, 25″. Hands tied up with robe belt. She’s into it…until she’s not. She starts softly crying again!! Fuck me!!

    Me, pulling out: Honey, I want this to be good, we deserve better. She tells me she doesn’t want the boys to become me. She knows what I teach them (Yes, I KNOW! Don’t talk about Fight Club!), they don’t listen to her any more, our oldest rolls his eyes at her, not with looks of love. She goes all churchy virtue on me. The boys should never touch a girl, have sex until marriage stuff. “He knows we have sex everyday.” “You’re ruining his innocence.” She doesn’t want a girl as pure as (oldest’s gf) to go through what she did.

    I agree I’m crass and tactless. The boys deserve better instruction, this I’ll improve on but they are sexual, right now, and to deny them their God-given sexuality without a semblance of guidance is fundamentally torture for a young man. They’ll need to know the how a woman wants to be loved, needs to be loved. I agree they deserve better than I was able to give her, and although I’m beef-fisted, even at this early point, I see they’ll be better off than we ever were. This is about improving our marriage, our family and it is getting better. “You can see it too. They’re incredible boys, fun, kind, and smart. Girls want to be with them…for good reasons.” It’s ultimately up to them and their relationship with God. We’re here to be good examples in the today, not relive our mistakes for them as a warning. Let’s show them how its done, not dysfunction. She says she’s happy I stopped the sex, it means I’m listening to her, and thanks me.

    She relaxes again, I tell her to hug me and she’s sleeping on my chest now. I awake an hour or so later with her humping my leg. Really riding it. Fine, I give her a nice finish.

    Morning coffee, I’m chill again. I must remain so, at. all. times.

    After work, everyone’s happy at home. Midterms week almost done, kids trading punches, laughs. We’re invited to a club for Christmas dinner. I’m just hanging out, helping with neckties, listening to the day’s happenings.

    At the party, I can’t get to my friends because I’m meeting table after table of people I know from different parts of my life. Hugging and glad handing. Everyone’s got a cocktail. One wine for me. That’s all. All’s well. I tell wife I’m the DD, so she can drink responsibly (h/t, SJF). She has two. She and the kids are happy, I don’t contribute to the conversation much, and people are happy to see me. This is what I need to be.

    Home now. Wife gets in shower with me, and passion ensues. To bed and finish. Nice! She’s up at 3 AM starts coffee, gets in bed and we talk happy talk. She says, and I quote: “EhIntellect, you’re a lot cheaper than marriage counseling.”

    And this is the tl;dr version. Brutal.

  29. @EhIntellect

    Congratulations on your performance in that field test. You handled the Mother of All Comfort (shit) Tests with a great skill. (and you lived to tell about it–talk about knowing and leaning out to your edge, without falling off. Dancing on a razor blade the last couple months and not getting hurt.)

    You covered a lot of the 48 laws of power in that report.

    Your wife pulls the old “guess what’s behind the pillow trick”? And you go through your rolodex and pull out the old Law #22 of the 48 Laws (Use the Surrender Tactic: Transform Weakness into Power. Well played.

    For reference:

    https://www.tke.org/files/file/The_48_Laws_of_Power.pdf

    This is a power battle going on, but a respectful one. Wouldn’t hurt to use the linked explanation of the 48 Laws of Power.

    “She asks me what I want from her, and although she’s crying, anger is behind her eyes. She says she doesn’t even recognize me any more, after 23 years. She doesn’t want to leave me, desires me so much and she doesn’t know what is going on. The last 6 months have been something from a movie, it’s unreal. I’ve been manipulating her. AM I MENTALLY ILL, AM I SCHIZOPHRENIC??!!”

    Are you sure it isn’t FEAR she is exhibiting from losing her power over you, engendered by Dread from you And she is afraid that you need her less than she needs you? Loss of power. Anger because of fear. Lack of feeling “in control” on her part.

    Doesn’t matter though, her comfort test was a sign to dial it back from 11, especially during the stressful holidays.

    She’s using sex to reign you in. She’s fearful you don’t need her for sex as much any more, hence the Giant Comfort Test which you performed very well in using to your advantage. Across all relationship platforms, there is an axiom:

    Men use relationships to get sex, women use sex to get relationships

    Unless men come into red pill awareness that is.

    You see what is going on there, and why the comfort test. Lack of power over you.

    The upside is you are just out of her grasp and exhibiting Alpha behaviors, she’s going to fall in love with you all over again, 50 Shades of Gray style (because of the being just out of her reach, control).

    Hey, honest question, EhIntellect: What would you do or how would you be doing without the manosphere?

    In regards to the boys, I see it all the time in my current situation what is happening with FI social conventions and it is troubling to me to see boys masculinity suppressed. Any time MOM sees (what all of the Hive-mind would consider) toxic masculinity or a screw up, impudent behavior, fighting, police citations, tooling other guys in tribal merit shit test. Any damn masculine behavior, minor or major. She wants to shut is down, not redirect it into other masculine pursuits. And what this does is lets mom get away with feminizing and indoctrinating the boys with FI social conventions of their own liking with propaganda.

    Problem is you can’t have the squabbles with mom and dad out in the open. You can’t have the boys not respect their mom (unless she actually is un-respectable you should chastise them if they <inappropriately disrespect mom, not just cause you are giving them some goodies or leniency). And you can’t have mom and dad saying opposite things. You can have mom and dad say complementary things: like stay masculine from dad, and respect the girls femininity and virginity from mom.

    It’s a balancing act. I prefer to have my son go with the social grace of Law #28 (Law 28
    Enter Action with Boldness). But from mom’s perspective, they need to use Law # 38
    (Think as you like but Behave like others–like the feminized Church community.)

    My advice is keep it subversive with you are advocating red pill for your sons. I personally don’t see any harm the FI is doing to my son, so I just give support for his masculine toxic behaviors, appease my wife and support his fuck-ups when then deserve it (most of him were honest masculine mistakes). He’s not pussified. His mom is great mother, but has the same fears as Mrs. EhIntellect, ……go figure). I’m satisfied with how my red pill masculine parenting is going but it is certainly dancing on a razor blade. And the shoes are holding up well.

    There is a bigger battle going on here and it’s not about sex. It’s more important than that this month in the EhIntellect household.

  30. @EhIntellect

    Keep moving forward in married red pill. But don’t be afraid to rest at times so she can keep up.

    Illimitable Man MAXIM #22: “Women don’t care about your struggles, only your successes.”

    Illimitable Man MAXIM #23: “Women want the final product, but successful men value a woman who was there for the journey. Women detest risk, so they have the propensity to hold back ambitious men with their petulant insecurities. Should he become too powerful, she fears she will lose her monopoly over him. She sabotages him to secure him, for the crab bucket mentality is intrinsic to women.” Refer to Maxim #22.

  31. Ehintellect

    And this is the tl;dr version. Brutal.

    IDK man… It seems to me that you enjoy the drama. And that’s cool if it is the case, i get it.

    What do you want to achieve here? If anything? What does success in your relationship look like?

  32. Eh

    Here is a little diddy for you

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dlmnVMTbC0

    [also funny to see the differences in each guy in the vid]

    Your eyes are the color of the earth as seen from outer space
    You got a gorgeous face, though its a little odd
    Tell me that you like the songs that tell the story of
    real love, the kind that’s flawed
    Let’s drink whiskey and do it
    all night long
    Let’s get drunk
    and get it on
    Take you to a cheap hotel out on the interstate
    Well you look so great to me
    This is the perfect place for a rendesvouz
    Its got a rotten view but the ice is free
    Let’s drink whiskey and do it
    all night long
    Let’s get drunk
    and get it on

  33. Thank you for your input. I couldn’t of done it without you.

    I’ve given up a lot of personal pursuits over the years because she’d shame me, I’d resist, adding a layer of resentment, then fold…and find another diversion. Sentient, I gave up the guitar a decade ago as she’d shame me, in front of the me, kids, friends. I picked up a combination woodworking/artistic pursuit, which was mother hen approved. She’d come out and rate my work at a level no one would expect. All my work sells. After a while I angrily told her to go away, she isn’t any good what I was doing. I went personal. That approach didn’t help our marriage. I needed to do something different. Yeah, your right, Sentient, I tend to fire with fire, not water. I wish I had your Moab calm, your natural charm.

    For me, this never was about the sex.

    Guess what? I picked the guitar up this week, and the ukulele again.

    I’ve been a truncated man, but now I see a path to daylight. At work, my job performance and relationships are much better, more charming. It’s not perfect, but I’m ultimately responsible for all those under my roof and want the best for me and them. I can’t perform my best with my insecurities manically gnawing at me.

    My relationship must be defined by self-sustaining positive behaviors. I was reactive, defensive, frustrated, avoided the tit-for-tat, but let myself get sucked into it. I don’t want it anymore and just decided to be a different man.

    Without the manosphere? I’d fall away from her, periods of tension followed by anger and abuse, let my marriage languish, stay married but do as my Father-in-Law, patiently dodge her tests, resenting her. What a waste of a life and I’m better than that.

    I need to enjoy my new family and wish you all a Merry Christmas.

  34. going through some tough stuff, have to push through things for a while. good news is that once i get through it, i will be in a much better mindset and will be in a good position to have a breakthrough.

    just want to keep track of days to keep focus. today is day one, aiming for at least a week.

  35. @Sentient @Anonymous Reader – thanks guys, yeah the asexual dynamic you describe makes sense now that you mention it. I even mentioned in my first post that there was no tension at all and the vibe was very relaxed and chilled and this feeds into that..

    @SJF – thanks dude. So if I understand correctly you’re basically saying that in this kind of thing the wife usually knows she’s behaving badly and the exact reason why (like a kid going for the cookie jar) so there’s no need to verbally set the boundary, except in unusual/exceptional circumstances or where the wife doesn’t know she’s crossed a line (so in TheMarquis’ example, the FIRST time he told his wife he doesn’t like drunk sex it was okay to verbalize, but after that, every time she drinks she knows she’s crossing his boundaries – at least if sex is on the cards).

  36. @Culum

    Rollo always mentions entering into LTR’s with proper Frame and not losing it. Once it’s lost it is harder to regain. Setting borders and boundaries from the start through overt verbalization is good. Overt verbalization is more impotent (no I didn’t spell important wrong) in the claw back from years of improper LTR Frame.

    The situation is a little more broader in regaining Frame in a LTR because there is a higher level agency battle going on. Mrs. EhI knows she is throwing a hissy fit when Mr. EhI is acting impudent and not under her control, but there is a much longer larger issue of the agency she has built up over years.

    Imaging if you had a travel or insurance agency that over the years, you (the wife) manipulated clients (the husband) into paying more and jumping through more hoops to get your services. This can be either good or bad for the clients depending if it suits their needs and interests (incl. raising the children) or bad when it damages their interests (female domination of the male). Then one day the internet comes along (Heh, manosphere and red pill realizations) and all of the sudden, there are cut rate fees and fewer hoops to jump through. All of the sudden you have an agency problem and the clients have more power. You know you are wrong when you try cheap tricks in the short term, (in the heat of one moment when you can’t make a sale) to get your agency back. This is analogous to the husband trying to unwind the wife’s long built up agency. And her resorting to cheap shots.

    From the Female Stages of Manipulation:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/07/18/are-you-experienced/comment-page-2/#comment-163929

    The more manipulation is used by a woman, the more it becomes natural and unconscious to her. It is like learning to play a musical instrument: at first it is difficult and one needs to pay conscious attention to each note being played, Then, as mastery is gradually achieved, manipulation becomes more and more unconscious.

    Behaviors are slow to develop and also slow to be unlearned. In the modem woman of the industrialized countries, the way instincts are expressed has changed slightly with time, due to less-demanding survival conditions. However, the influence of the female’s primal instincts on her behavior remains evident.

    It is important for you to learn to recognize manipulation. In fact for a woman’s sexuality to be satisfied, it is important that her manipulation attempts against her man not be too effective. You must learn to observe female behavior and give the right responses, with the goal of making her happy on the emotional level, as opposed to responding to manipulation attempts on a logical level.

    In Marquis’ example, his wife is just performing routine hide the vagina from the beta; I have the magical pussy, so I make the rules. She owns the agency in the house and he can’t explain that logically to his wife, that she is manipulating him to his detriment. She knows she is and she doesn’t care. His recourse is to Alpha up, get his finances and job in order over two years, not be beholden to the magic pussy, and take back some leadership of the day to day decision making, including day to day game. He doesn’t like her drinking because she is filling herself up with that instead of him penetrating her mood and she is likely starfishing sex and doling it out IV drip fashion.

    EhIntellect had been Betatized over the years and is taking back his agency. I experienced this myself for a 10 year period. I took back my agency and went through all those frame battles starting 5 years ago and shrug off the Betatization and her Dominance. The wife loses her former power and in doing so will fight tooth and nail to regain her agency (both noun and verb use apply here). The man has to keep at regaining frame and correct her for her boundary crossings. Assertiveness training and no more Mr. Nice Guy are key ingredients in doing this. It takes unwinding her former agency of manipulation which is natural to her, and when you bring her out of her safe agency, she gets scared and pissed because of the control you now have over yourself (and the lack of control she has over you) and the family dynamic.

    If my explanation is too descriptive or abstract, the prescriptive way to regain masculine agency is well described in MRP reddit and a the sidebar there gives all the foundational aspects of it.

  37. “The wife loses her former power and in doing so will fight tooth and nail to regain her agency”

    Correct in that she is fearing losing control over me and is supplicating now in myriad means. It’s fascinating in that the crying yesterday would spigot-like start/stop if she felt she was gaining control. It’s not anger, it’s fear.

    I haven’t spoken to her in objective terms for a couple days, that’s helping a lot. Woo-woo talk is all she is satisfied with.

    Sentient is right (as always), playing with the drama again yesterday evening. I had to test the limits and methods she’ll be using on me until she moves though this. I tested the angry crying fit with attention removal. 6″, 2′, 6′, down the hall. With every movement, she’d raise her anger, then panic running after me, pleading, then as she’d get closer, she get more angry. Huh. I got to a point where she was really sobbing in fear without the aggression, so I told her to hug me and she fell into my arms and I consoled her. She actually said, “Emotion is all I know!”

    This morning before work she availed herself to me, but…it was prefaced with clumsy pick-up line and the sex was uninspired. It was utilitarian, pure and simple. I finished, gave her a perfunctory atta-boy and left.

    The learning curve is gradual now.

    She’s sending churchy e-mail re submission and acquiescence as she goes through the rolodex:

    “Attract and Repel To make this possible, the two sexes must not only attract one another, but they must also repel one another. This may sound like a contradiction, but it can easily be demonstrated. It is normal, for example, for a man to be attracted to a woman, but it is equally normal for him to be repelled by femininity. No normal man would want to live in a beribboned and scented boudoir. On the other hand, it is normal for a woman to love a man; it is equally normal for her to be repelled by masculinity. No normal woman would like the loud talk, rough comradeship and bare decoration of a barracks or clubroom. The point to be stressed is that a man may love a woman but he hates to be womanly. A woman may love a man but she has no desires to be manly.”

    She then celebrates my one-word “yep” reply. Skittles.

  38. Culum

    I even mentioned in my first post that there was no tension at all and the vibe was very relaxed and chilled and this feeds into that..

    So act on this right? This is why you can create massive sexual tension in 2 minutes… She isn’t getting that and is settling for comfort… the touching still has a purpose, but it is a second place trophy. Be the guy who goes against the grain. Enjoy

    Ehintellect…

    “Sentient is right (as always), playing with the drama again yesterday evening.”

    well I wouldn’t go that far… I’m still nto sure what you think success looks like in your relationship. I get more now that you are looking to take the frame, but what does the end game look like and importantly is that really what you want?

    Like is the end game complete submission to your every whim and if so, does that leave you with any excitement and drama? Getting what you want, after a bit can be very boring.

    Just stuff to ruminate on…

  39. As you’ve said before, I need to build this back to front. A submissive wife needs constant mate-guarding and does get unnaturally weird. In a way her instinctual tactics are a benefit for the family as power struggles happen outside the relationship too. I want her to win those.

    It is fun when she fights a bit during sex and such. That’s her feral self. I’ll take the weekend to get some ideas.

  40. “I’m still not sure what you think success looks like in your relationship.”

    I’d venture (with red pill lenses on) the lack of contempt first. Second, admiration and respect for ongoing masculine alpha leadership by the man (realizing past contributions are water under the bridge). Trust of the man to lead without the woman upping her masculine/minimizing her feminine. Allowing the man to exercise his masculine character without feminizing him. Attempts at manipulation by the female to be for the good of the man and the good of the children. “Healthy” equilibrium of masculine and feminine and parental roles of dad and mom (whatever they may be).

    Lack of contempt, admiration and respect and trust also flows the other way. When things settle the man can/may/will have those feelings toward the woman if she is worthy of them after fucking her.

    The woman allows the man to be his best imitation of himself, the man allows the woman to be the best imitation of herself. Both support each other’s efforts. The children see good healthy parental relationships as they learn how to deal with the other gender and feel comfortable with inter-gender relationships.

  41. “I’m still not sure what you think success looks like in your relationship.”

    Surveys say:

    EhIntellect gives his wife
    — Presence
    — Intelligence
    — Strength
    — Passion
    — Direction
    — Humor

    And she accepts and trusts those as genuine and authentic qualities.

    She gives:

    — Beauty
    — Sexual openness
    — Trust of her man’s direction
    — Support for her man’s vision
    — Intellectual intelligence
    — Healthy radiance
    — Efforts guided at every individual’s best interests (mom herself, husband, dad and children).

    And he appreciates that.

  42. Ok, I have a question. A 21 yo waitress (HB7) at my now-2nd-favorite country bar seems to be “interested” in me…she always stops to chat…she always has that UMC “moonfaced smile” on when we chat…always tries to speak and appear mature! Last night she was at the bar, but not working and I didn’t recognize her because she wasn’t in uniform (bar shirt) and she had changed her hair. When I was passing her, she stopped me by grabbing my arm and getting up in my grill and said “hi”. We chatted and she was comfortable with some kino where I demonstrated some kino that I had been doing to another girl. The waitress didn’t want to dance with me. I asked her why and she said that her coworkers would tease her. I said, “Dancing with the old guy,” but I think it’s more that they would tease her about being a golddigger. I talked about a buddy of mine whom the waitress also knows and tried to steer her his way, but she would have none of it. The waitress mentioned that she had plenty of time to “settle down.” (i.e., I’ve got time to ride the carousel) Near the end, the waitress asked me if I’d be coming to the bar on New Year’s Eve (I said I hadn’t decided) and told me that she’d be working (of course).

    The waitress is obviously not lit up, but she’s always interested in me and smiling and trying to be mature, which I interpret as a kind of compliance. It could be that the waitress likely suppresses her emotions so that she will appear more mature and less silly like she would if she giggled.

    What’s going on?

    1) golddigging (betabux)

    2) preference for an older man and security (betabux)

    3) sexual desire (alphafux)

    4) some mixture of these

    Please break it down.

  43. ASD

    I run into similar situations,a definite ioi and I look at it as ,I am an experiment in old fungi for these younguns.

    I am the first man of obvious stature that isn’t lecturing her,doesn’t have any authority,and this is different something to be explored,she wants to be seen as an adult,not by her friends,by you.

    I have been told by these types that they like when I talk to them,mostly I think when I listen.

    It could be infatuation,but as with most things it will pass,one cross word will kill the buzz.

    Face it ASD she sees you with social proof,a fun guy,she has respect,she wants yours in return.
    Keep dancing Merry Christmas

  44. @ all

    The old me is officially dead and she’s wildly in love with me. I cracked the code yesterday.

    We had a dust up Friday night requiring me to leave til closing time. The next morning (after sex), I explained our difficulties are at heart my inability to talk to her the way she can understand. Last week, she asked me what I wanted from her. I might of been speaking in Swahili. I literally didn’t know how to tell her what I was up to and leaving the night before wasn’t running from her, though that’s how she felt. I was running from the old me, the old me who’d stand there in the shitstorm failing to understand what she was feeling, needed.

    Our conversation was never, ever in the definitive, I must have used “feel” 50 times, in one conversation, over 15 minutes. “I want you to feel that I can be trusted.” “I want you to feel beautiful, feel joyful in our marriage.” “I want you to feel that children are the envy of the community and feel they love you too.” “I want the trust I exude to be palpable to you.” “I wasn’t satisfied with just a great sex life, I wanted the perfect marriage and did it different. The culture doesn’t want us to know these things and profits from the dysfunction.” Once I got started, it was too easy.

    No joke, and she wildly loved it. She actually said, “This is the first time I’ve understood you in 6 months, ever.” I said nothing that could be pinned down to reality…which is my new reality. I explained this whole process, without talking about fight club. Explaining to her re: years ago I gave up porn and masturbation. I was tired of it; it wasn’t satisfying anymore. My libido was (is) so high and I didn’t know what to do with it all, so I ended up attacking her in exotic fashions. I had a stallion libido but a milk cart marriage. My personality was all over the place, and it was freaking Mrs. EhIntellect out. The whole sliders analogy, and such.

    “I didn’t tell you what I was up to because I honestly couldn’t tell you. I vaguely knew what I was doing but didn’t have mental and verbal skills. You wouldn’t have believed me if I told you anyways. (She agreed) I had to do this to kill the old me, the old me who didn’t understand your feelings.”

    I explained to her this process was ultimately overcoming my insecurities and to “love” her and see the world as it is. The world wants me to porn masturbate, let the marriage languish, attend futile counseling, drown myself in alcohol, hire attorneys, divide the property, marry again and wash, rinse, repeat. Our marriage was becoming a tool of the common culture and not us. I had to take it back and wasn’t willing to wait this one out. All this drama occurred because I was too fucking dumb to translate my actions into words she could understand.

    No more.

    I told her this is the man I wanted to be 23 years ago. She is now married to new guy. He talks different, acts different…but fucks the same. NBTM is spot on. Speaking chick talk was the last part of this and was the hardest. Talk about not getting it. I knew I was close…so close last week and didn’t want to stop the momentum and have this loom over me during the holidays.

    My favorite line of the night:

    Mrs EhIntellect: “You’ve said this was never about the booze, the sex, the drama. It sure took a lot of booze, sex and drama. This is the best Christmas present ever. Thanks honey.”

    Over celebration cigars, we laughed sincerely about it.

  45. Nice comment Ehintellect

    I think you’ll find it wasnt the words you spoke as much as it was you r active leading that she responded to. Keep leading… That’s the burden and hard when you are not quite sure exactly where you’re going.

    But lead and hold her accountable.

    Nice stuff.

  46. @Sentient and @EhIntellect:

    I’m no expert, but I still think you are talking way too much, and about feelings. You seem to also be acting and leading which is probably why despite not shutting up you still get a good measure of success.

    All the talking and focus on feelings suggests that you are still in her frame (not yours). It seems you think you should explain yourself to her etc., and that when you describe it to her, your whole mission is making your marriage better (for her) etc. Somehow she is still Framing your journey instead of you Framing hers, does that make sense?

    If I understand RP truths properly, with the amount of sex and submission you appear to be getting, it should be enough for you to tell her you are self-improving and she is free to come along your journey if she wants to give some added value (and if she doesn’t she is free to go find someone else that is better for her).

  47. @IAS, EhIntellect

    I give him an A+ for effort, and a solid A for accomplishment. Even if Sentient is accusing him of “I Want Something Good……I Just Don’t Know What It Is Yet”. Nothing wrong with that, out of Desire to Achieve comes Mastery. Figure it out and refine it later.

    And I see the transitioning and flow of Frame from her to him (and her fighting it because of the dynamics I described earlier), but not compromising her agency. A win/win. Good job EhIntellect.

    As to the verbalizing there is always this:

    Roissy’s Seventh

    XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

    In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.

  48. ” Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.”

    First time I heard this,and asked ,what about concrete groupies? where are they? The old boy said, that’s easy they are in prison.

  49. @adsgamer A few points here:

    “I said, “Dancing with the old guy,” but I think it’s more that they would tease her about being a golddigger.”

    NEVER…and I mean NEVER EVER even in jest bring up the age difference. That is pussy tingle killer. Never call yourself “old guy”…never call yourself anything.

    When a girl refers to my age or tries to pull it out of me I say “You want a boy or a man?” or make some reference to “I’m like 76 but well-preserved…” Leave them guessing never draw it out.

    Only once with the girls I’m banging did I ever bring up my age and it was: “How many 50 year olds you know can pick you up like that…how may 20 year olds do you know who could do that?”

    As for what’s going on?

    She’s clearly giving IOI’s and at that age…21 … many girls want a more mature guy because it’s a reflection of how they see themselves…banging the “old guy” is a thrill because it’s something to tell their girlfriends.

    You DON”T want to be seen gaming her where she works…it will get her fired and you banned.

    Find a way to say “Here’s how it’s going to play….if you can keep your hands off me, let’s go to xxxx…Here’s now it’s going to go down…I’m going to finish this beer, you’re going to do your make up or whatever it is you girls do in there….meet me outside in 5″…

    Then leave. If she’s waiting great. If she’s not ok. But don’t shit where you eat. I meet girls all the time where I hang out. Discretion is key here.

    It’s a thrill for her. Girls game guys too…but they call it cock-teasing. She’s having a thrill getting past the barriers of knowing her fun, older, mysterious customer.

    Break out of that. If she doesn’t bite…it’s like getting a number that doesn’t return your texts…move on. Be careful with situations that could escalate into public drama.

  50. Yeah, wala, I think that she’s trying to game me while she’s working and also was gaming me last Fri. We got up in each other’s grids when I was trying to figure out who she was. She’s running a very low key UMC style game. I get a sense of it when she stops to chat with me, my radar starts pinging, if you know what I mean.

  51. CSP
    http://wp.me/p4tvpM-1NPK
    Trauma and the body
    https://soundcloud.com/prajna-yoga/effects-of-trauma-in-the-body
    “Isn’t everything we do in life a way to be loved a little more?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWuX5bRY890
    Jesse “Alright, alright. Think of it like this: jump ahead, ten, twenty years, okay, and you’re married. Only your marriage doesn’t have that same energy that it used to have, y’know. You start to blame your husband. You start to think about all those guys you’ve met in your life and what might have happened if you’d picked up with one of them, right? Well, I’m one of those guys. That’s me y’know, so think of this as time travel, from then, to now, to find out what you’re missing out on. See, what this really could be is a gigantic favor to both you and your future husband to find out that you’re not missing out on anything. I’m just as big a loser as he is, totally unmotivated, totally boring, and, uh, you made the right choice, and you’re really happy.”
    Before sunrise 1995 Before sunset 2004
    “Celine: I’m happy you’re saying that, because… I mean, I always feel like a freak, because I’m never able to move on like… this! You know. People just have an affair, or even entire relationships… they break up and they forget! They move on like they would have changed brand of cereals! I feel I was never able to forget anyone I’ve been with. Because each person have… their own, specific qualities. You can never replace anyone. What is lost is lost. Each relationship, when it ends, really damages me. I never fully recover. That’s why I’m very careful with getting involved, because… It hurts too much! Even getting laid! I actually don’t do that… I will miss on the other person the most mundane things. Like I’m obsessed with little things. Maybe I’m crazy, but… when I was a little girl, my mom told me that I was always late to school. One day she followed me to see why. I was looking at chestnuts falling from the trees, rolling on the sidewalk, or… ants crossing the road, the way a leaf casts a shadow on a tree trunk… Little things. I think it’s the same with people. I see in them little details, so specific to each of them, that move me, and that I miss, and… will always miss. You can never replace anyone, because everyone is made of such beautiful specific details. Like I remember the way, your beard has a bit of red in it. And how the sun was making it glow, that… that morning, right before you left. I remember that, and… I missed it! I’m really crazy, right?”

  52. @Rfg You have to be more discrete when gaming girls in places you go to or within your social circle.

    But I do it. Girls don’t really talk if the thing is discrete. If the girl was publicly your date or gf…yah, it’s messy.

    But girls prefer to keep things on the quiet anyway. It’s interesting for me to see their sexual playbook. They make themselves available to you for a window of time. If you outright reject them, some will get angry. But most will just more on and try again later on.

  53. Everyone, thank you for all the advice. Just got around to it – been busy with family festivities and hope everyone else is enjoying the holiday season.

    I’ll reply one by one below.

    Having A Bad Day – Thank you for the detailed breakdown and insight. Opened new vistas in my thinking. Everything seems to be a shit test to handle. What’s the difference between that and beta bait? Or is that just a kind of shit test?

    Forge the Sky – Thank you. It’s an interesting point to keep in mind – in one sense this is all really silly and kind of a fun game to play with her and mess around. Like it’s not as if things can get worse – only better. Well I understand they can get worse but unlikely from this.

    Anonymous Reader – thank you. Expanding on the details and giving some examples for lines to use is great. I need to keep some of them in mind and hope they pop out at the right time to use.

    SJF – Thank you for the detailed responses and the offer to send me the books. Very generous. I’m okay on that front – money is tight but not so tight that I can’t do some discretionary spending (finding time to read the books with full attention and apply the principles is another matter).

    Just to be clear – she doesn’t know anything about the Red Pill or what I read. She found a bunch of really old pickup related PDFs that I downloaded years ago when going through angst about the status of my relationship with her pre-marriage, and some stuff even older. Most of it I didn’t even bother reading at the time but there were dozens of PDFs of old pickup material. None of it is about the Red Pill and mostly predates the Red Pill (which is what? 5-6 years old in current form?). I will check those books out.

    On the drinking thing. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I don’t have a problem with my wife drinking as such – I don’t think she’s a problem drinker, and it’s actually quite impressive she’s managed this year’s physical improvements while still drinking regularly (but in moderation). What I don’t like is sex with her when she’s drunk or very tipsy (mildly tipsy is okay). I guess that’s just a personal preference but to me it feels sloppy and slobbery. Why? I don’t know. But I don’t like it and never have.

    Maybe the reason is something like you suggest – I have no idea. But I can tell you my wife doesn’t disrespect me to the extent you describe. I certainly have a lot of work to do to get my marriage where I want, but I haven’t slid to the point where my wife would openly insult me to my face.

    But I understand your broader points and I’ll try to address them.

    I’ve read the old MMSL book (and spent some time on the forums). I’ve got WISNIFG on my Kindle and need to get the Nice Guy book. I have also spent some time reading the Married Red Pill forum on Reddit. And I read the Rational Male whenever I can. All the posts, but I don’t always have time for the comments.

  54. Thank you for your comments and support. This life is now mine to lose.

    @IAS

    True, true. Demonstrate, not explicate.

    The narrative created for my wife was to ease my conversion from Beta to consistently-inconsistent alpha to trusted alpha. She’s been whipsawed so many times in the last few months for so many reasons, I prefer to avoid another severe emotional cycle inherent in regaining frame. I get enough sex. PUA can’t help me here.

    You’re correct, IAS. If anything the subtext of my little story is to start with solid frame when entering a LTR. I’d habituated her and me to decades of Betadom. This doesn’t change overnight. I’ve tried and she wanted me dead after my failed attempts.

    Without being too heroic, if possible, the semi-yarn was to help her immediately understand the past-present-future me in a way that fit her worldview without halting my progress. Her hindbrain gets the alpha, the forebrain gets the sanguine patriarch, and I get my life back. 5″ into my explanation she was so rapt, she ornamented the story, selling it to herself so, my work was essentially done. She even created a dues ex machina of miraculous divine intervention. Why dispel convenient fiction?

    I’m not looking for a Disney ending. What she wants is not my objective. I’ve talked a little to her about moving on from here, celebrating our victories and giving her a fantasy of a shining exciting future, without contempt, parenting consistently. She’s loving it. She was actually dancing around me in the middle of the driveway if I were a maypole, listening to Pharrell’s Come Get It Bae, jumping in, kissing me occasionally, me just standing smoking my cigar. Wow. Baby steps now with her. I need to let her catch up. She said as such.

    This weekend was relaxing, people serving me without my interest in the details. I play the role a calm patriarch well, understanding what Sentient has described. Yes, people are unnerved at my placidity, but they are oddly happy about it too.

    @ SJF nohomo bro-hug to you.

    Law 3 Conceal Your Intentions
    Law 25 Recreate Yourself
    Law 32 Play to People’s Fantasies
    Law 38 Think as You Like but Behave as Others
    Law 43 Work on the Hearts and Minds of Others
    Law 46 Never Appear Too Perfect

    and now

    Law 47 Do not go Past the Mark You Aimed for; In victory Learn when to Stop.

    Happy New Year!

  55. EhIntellect / IAS

    Great story Eh… You are on your way, just be careful to avoid plateau in a month or two… she will test you hard again.

    IAS – it’s ok to talk to women and share your feelings, it is the frame in which you are doing it that counts… Authenticity – saying what you mean, and having her believe you are serious, from a non negotiated/bargaining position is very powerful EHintellect used a lot of soft words but conveys truth to her – he is moving on, and the subtext is she can join him or not. She gets the subtext. Putting this dynamic on the table “I am not going to be the person I am expected to be anymore”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG-nnDlnWrA

    is essential to making progress in a stalled LTR… You need this kind of nuclear reframe. One of the big failures you say over and over at MMSL is guys get stuck in the stage just before Eh is at, where he just was, waffling between Beta and Alpha and confusing her, because they could or would not ever put it ALL on the table. Athol coached the ultimatum but it didn’t need to be explicit – divorce or change – in most cases. It just need to be sincere… And nothing is as chilling IMO as calmly talking about YOUR future plans (with an emphasis on you)..

    Now IAS – this kind of result could be yours – but you need to start busting some moves man… Stop the drift.

    You ain’t getting any younger. Go all in on IAS – whatever form that takes. You’ll feel so much better having agency and not acting a victim.

    Have you watched The Gambler yet?

  56. I’m the king of my own land.
    Facing tempests of dust, I’ll fight until the end.
    Creatures of my dreams raise up and dance with me!
    Now and forever, I’m your king!

  57. @TheMarquis

    Having A Bad Day – Thank you for the detailed breakdown and insight. Opened new vistas in my thinking. Everything seems to be a shit test to handle. What’s the difference between that and beta bait? Or is that just a kind of shit test?

    beta bait…

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/05/15/more-common-types-of-beta-bait/

    basically, the girl throws these statements out to see if you’ll ‘bite’… but it’s not an active ‘push’ against you… like a regular shit test…

    general shit tests are active pushes against your frame… and are either ‘genetic fitness’ tests – where SHE wants to see if you are ‘fit’ for repro/sex with her… or ‘comfort’ tests – where she wants to see if YOU see her as worthy of you (for sex… but mostly for her getting your continued ‘provisioning’… so she’s not going to be a pump and dump…and married girls are worried that you will leave them for ‘new and shiny’)…

    but overall, it sounds like she is giving you LOTS of invitations to have sex with her… you just have to spot them… and convert on them…

    easy, peasy…lol

    good luck!
    ————
    @EhIntellect

    @ all

    The old me is officially dead and she’s wildly in love with me. I cracked the code yesterday.

    well, you haven’t been knifed in the kitchen yet, so take that as the win it is…lol… but mostly i’m starting to feel like i’m giving you matches to play with while you’ve already gotten a ton of dynamite sitting around you from reading TRM (and going RP)…

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/22/dream-girls-and-children-with-dynamite/

    i don’t think you are out of the woods, yet… (she hasn’t even been through ONE full hormonal cycle yet…lol)… one thing that i’ve noticed is that men change a LOT more quickly to accept ‘reality’ than girls do…lol… that’s the basic mech that the FI uses to great advantage… men (BP/WK/beta) basically believe whatever they are told to believe… (RP changes that…mostly…lol… but it’s still a constant battle…)

    girls don’t accept ‘new reality’ unless they test it completely… bc that’s how they KNOW… it CAN happen fast… but that’s when the situ completely changes… and is solidly consistent… (like a war bride situ…)… mostly, it takes her (hindbrain) some time to work it out… = she’ll run her rolodex… and IF every shit test results in the same response = you pass… then it might only take a couple of cycles for her (hindbrain) to accept the situ as true… but if you are inconsistent in passing, her hindbrain needs to check even more times… until it can work out the boundaries of ‘you’… and how ‘solid’ that boundary actually is…

    so, however long it took you to get to ‘here’ (from where you started actively RP pushing towards more alpha) you should give yourself at LEAST that much time before you start to relax into ‘unconscious competence’ (which if you have THAT, you won’t have to worry about your situ, but you likely DON’T at this point…) and start to expect better behavior from her hindbrain… and even twice as long as that would be reasonable… and three times would STILL be in the normal bell curve distro timeline for ‘recovery’…

    i still think it’s possible to go to ‘alpha stud’ overnight, but you have to handle every shit test perfectly… and every time you don’t handle one, you create more doubt in her hindbrain… which needs to be resolved by shit testing you with that page from her rolodex… and until you handle THAT page successfully ‘enough’… and also in varying combinations with her other pages… in as many permutations as her hindbrain can think up… IF you keep inconsistently/randomly failing shit tests like a boss…lol…

    note – THAT is not the same as CONSISTENTLY failing the same shit test… bc then her hindbrain can just KNOW (that you never pass THAT test = helps her hindbrain place you on the alpha/beta bell curve distro spectrum)… but when you sometimes pass solidly/sometimes fail the SAME shit test… her hindbrain will NEED to increase the intensity of THAT shit test the next time… to TEST you… and that’s true even if you passed twice to start and failed three times since then… if her hindbrain has ANY doubt… it will ramp the intensity… and that doubt can come from you passing other shit tests that are in her rolodex…

    We had a dust up Friday night requiring me to leave til closing time. The next morning (after sex), I explained our difficulties are at heart my inability to talk to her the way she can understand. Last week, she asked me what I wanted from her. I might of been speaking in Swahili. I literally didn’t know how to tell her what I was up to and leaving the night before wasn’t running from her, though that’s how she felt. I was running from the old me, the old me who’d stand there in the shitstorm failing to understand what she was feeling, needed.

    Our conversation was never, ever in the definitive, I must have used “feel” 50 times, in one conversation, over 15 minutes. “I want you to feel that I can be trusted.” “I want you to feel beautiful, feel joyful in our marriage.” “I want you to feel that children are the envy of the community and feel they love you too.” “I want the trust I exude to be palpable to you.” “I wasn’t satisfied with just a great sex life, I wanted the perfect marriage and did it different. The culture doesn’t want us to know these things and profits from the dysfunction.” Once I got started, it was too easy.

    this is probably a good transition to your frame… where you are saying ‘i want you to [whatever]…’ as opposed to just being in her frame… even though you are specifically referring to her frame/feelings…and you should keep doing this (focus on what YOU want) ACTIVELY for at LEAST a couple months (through successfully handling her complete rolodex at least a dozen times… (not a typo…lol) a couple dozen is better… and it’s bc of the guard dog spin up… it’s going to take her some time to trust that the new you… actually is…lol…

    sooo, you should know that you are going to get a follow-on shit test (to start with…lol)… and it’s going to be a HARD one…(SPECIFICALLY to break your frame… since you have had your frame broken many times already… that’s the definition of a guard dog spin-up…)

    IF you don’t spot it soon enough and take action to handle it early (ie properly…lol)… you will just be one step further on the cycle to getting knifed in the kitchen… and that MIGHT be the next step to break your frame…

    No joke, and she wildly loved it. She actually said, “This is the first time I’ve understood you in 6 months, ever.” I said nothing that could be pinned down to reality…which is my new reality. I explained this whole process, without talking about fight club. Explaining to her re: years ago I gave up porn and masturbation. I was tired of it; it wasn’t satisfying anymore. My libido was (is) so high and I didn’t know what to do with it all, so I ended up attacking her in exotic fashions. I had a stallion libido but a milk cart marriage. My personality was all over the place, and it was freaking Mrs. EhIntellect out. The whole sliders analogy, and such.

    “I didn’t tell you what I was up to because I honestly couldn’t tell you. I vaguely knew what I was doing but didn’t have mental and verbal skills. You wouldn’t have believed me if I told you anyways. (She agreed) I had to do this to kill the old me, the old me who didn’t understand your feelings.”

    I explained to her this process was ultimately overcoming my insecurities and to “love” her and see the world as it is. The world wants me to porn masturbate, let the marriage languish, attend futile counseling, drown myself in alcohol, hire attorneys, divide the property, marry again and wash, rinse, repeat. Our marriage was becoming a tool of the common culture and not us. I had to take it back and wasn’t willing to wait this one out. All this drama occurred because I was too fucking dumb to translate my actions into words she could understand.

    No more.

    her hindbrain is seeing you as needing her approval… which isn’t necessarily bad…lol…

    I told her this is the man I wanted to be 23 years ago. She is now married to new guy.

    aaand, her hindbrain is figuring out how to test this ‘new guy’…lol

    He talks different, acts different…but fucks the same. NBTM is spot on. Speaking chick talk was the last part of this and was the hardest. Talk about not getting it. I knew I was close…so close last week and didn’t want to stop the momentum and have this loom over me during the holidays.

    My favorite line of the night:

    Mrs EhIntellect: “You’ve said this was never about the booze, the sex, the drama. It sure took a lot of booze, sex and drama. This is the best Christmas present ever. Thanks honey.”

    Over celebration cigars, we laughed sincerely about it.

    just don’t let this exchange lull you into a false sense of security…lol…bc it’s not over…yet…

    good luck!

  58. @EhIntellect

    Following on HABD’s excellent comments…be aware that the pit bull in the ring with you isn’t a docile kitten, even though it may try to purr and lick its tail…be on the alert and in full control of your feelings….calibrate your wife’s feelings…early and often! Keep a sense of humor when the shit tests hit.

    Gamer out.

  59. I consider myself fairly warned. She’s testing me here and there re: kids, competence, sex…waiting for increased variety, frequency and amplitude. I’m doing well. Sex is energetic, plentiful and freely given. She’s appealing to my presence, new steady nature, aggressive sexuality.

    Per HABD’s timeline, I have a year for full conversion. The action doesn’t end with rolling credits.

    “Keep a sense of humor when the shit tests hit.” Duly noted.

  60. @Hank

    “i definitely notice when girls like me. Its just an issue that I really only like non-white girls, and I live in a place that is majority white…so I have to hunt down the non-white girls…but I don’t have good venues to go to. So its just a grind to go out and find girls I like.”

    This is just another excuse ^ There is no way you can know what you like when you haven’t had any.Sounds like a porn fetish? to me idk.

    Way back in the dark ages when I was a kid,we understood the pheromonal beta like this,if you just had sex the women liked you and the men wanted to kick your ass because of some pheromones leakin out.We used to hear dumb shit like a black girl will change your luck,and fat girls will change your luck,most of this is true in that any time you get laid good,this puts a smile on your face,pheromones,self confidence,you made her make that sound,presto changeo your luck is changed.See mindset.

    Here is a question for your chick survey,what do the girls think of body ,face,skin color,cosmetics, in a non competative way?as pertains to other women.

    How do they rate that guy with the fat girl?

    “What do you get when you turn a blond upside down?”
    “A dirty brunet”

  61. @stuffinbox

    This is just another excuse ^ There is no way you can know what you like when you haven’t had any.Sounds like a porn fetish? to me idk.

    Have you fucked an 800 pound woman? What about a 90 year old women?

    Oh shit. What about an 800 pound, 90 year old woman? No? Well how do you know stuffinbox? Maybe that’s your fetish. You’ll never know if you like 800 pound, 90 year old women unless you go bang one. Get to it man. Lol

    Nah, you can tell pretty easily what you like early on in an interaction. I know I just feel nothing towards white chicks, and generally just check out of conversations with them.

    By contrast often times when I *see* a non white chick, I get an instant stiffy lol. And if its not instant, its almost right away after I start talking to them.

    Its pretty obvious what I like and don’t like lol.

  62. @Hank

    Are you claiming that the only women attracted to you are 800lb 90yo’s? Both are medically impossible btw obese people don’t have a 90yr expectancy.

    But hey if that is all you can draw in you may need to carry some porn with you to get it up on IDK.

    Personally I could always get it up for anything if necessary,white ,black,brown,yellow,skinny,,plump they all need good lovin,why deprive em that?

    The main clue bus here is the ones you are attracted to aren’t there and the ones that are attracted to you just don’t cut it.That about right?

  63. @stuffinbox

    The main clue bus here is the ones you are attracted to aren’t there and the ones that are attracted to you just don’t cut it.That about right?

    You’ve got some reading to do:
    https://therationalmale.com/2016/12/19/the-awareness/comment-page-3/#comment-184112
    https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/05/the-best-of-the-rational-male-year-5/comment-page-2/#comment-168711
    https://therationalmale.com/2016/12/19/the-awareness/comment-page-3/#comment-184113

    Read the FRs I linked at the bottom of those posts and then get back to me.

  64. Hank If I’ve read one of your frs I’ve read them all,they all end up the same,you at home alone with your dick in your hand.
    When that changes and I miss it then I’ve got some reading to do,in the meen time you have some introspection to do.

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