Field Reports


For the past three years of The Rational Male there’s been a consistent presence in the comment threads of guys seeking advice for particular situations with regards to Game. Whether it’s fine tuning certain aspects of Game or a larger consensus of the guys participating in my comment threads it’s become obvious there’s a need for a dedicated page and comment thread to address these Field Reports.

So I’m instituting this page for exactly this. If there is some urgency to have members of The Rational Male community analyze your particular situation feel free to hit anyone up in the comments of my current post, but please refer them to your particular field report with a link to your comment here. I’m hoping this will alleviate the mass of posts for field report analysis and Game specific insights piled into the main blog post for any given week.

There will be some rules for this “forum” as such. I ask that you only keep your comments to addressing the field reports at hand and save your larger theoretical stuff for the main posts, or if relevant, keep the “bigger scope of things” posts to being as succinct as possible. There will be no moderation in this comment thread (spamming excepted), so realize it will be a very hot kitchen before you post. I will impose no restrictions on video links here, nor will I limit links to various, but pertinent articles.

Understand, this is an experiment for now. It’s likely this comment thread will exceed thousands of comments. I’ll be instituting new comment plug-ins for wordpress to deal with this in the future, but I may archive this page the the posts and refresh this page in the future as well. If this gets cumbersome I may simply institute a dedicated forum-style sub-site of The Rational Male to accommodate for Game specific questions.

So have at it, post your field reports and feel free to comment on the ones you have some particular insight for. Be forewarned that it’s likely things may get a bit salty at times and I expect a lot of back & forth with debate and disagreements, but that’s what this thread is for – to hash out Game particulars for your given situations.


15,461 comments on “Field Reports

  1. Let me clarify what I mean by proximity. On my daily routine I do not encounter many new prospects because I am usually at school studying or training mostly. But the real issue is my time allocation. It would be optimal to get girls that are DTF on deck so I can just call if I want to bang, that way I do not waste time. Like I said before though, a lot of this would go smoother if I had a more concrete idea how to apply the MM to snapchat game, and overall just implementation of the MM.

  2. Young shager, i was a 17yo HS wrestler once, we didn’t do snapchat way back so don’t even know what it is. My steady girl was a cheerleader and I would walk her home after practice, we would stop at the cafe when we had time for sodas and fries,she would let me over when she was babysitting after the little ones were asleep. The rest of my time was spent at the local college student lounge shooting pool on the reg tables for .01 a min.(where I pulled a few SNLs) and at the college weight room. Had a job pearl diving and got schooled by a college girl waitress,she was a squirter.

    Your main push is comfort (just go out and play arcade games,bowling,put golf just something where you younguns can have fun,then if the sparks fly isolate and go for the natural progression of breaking taboo. logistics can be what you make it.

    Any one else ever see the blankets bouncing at the park or beach?

  3. @youngshagger

    For a girl who already knows you, like the girl who sat in your lap, you will use snap to establish an emotional connection and find a shared interest. By emotional connection it means you will make her feel a range of emotions, both by the snaps you send her and how you react to hers. Finding a shared interest gives you a reason to meet and isolate. Any plausible reason will do, such as you can help her with the school work shown in her last snap. Once you meet then you move to seduction. Don’t use snap for seduction, do it in person. Only use snap for attraction if you haven’t met her at all.

  4. @wahoo

    “church bathrooms any place where adults are ignoring the pains in the ass youth”

    …church…reminds me…how do you ignore the pains in the ass adults? Or get them to leave you alone? lol, there was a broad at church who was going all out to get me to take some cake she brought…she didn’t try to push the cake on anybody else…Mrs. Gamer doesn’t sit with me there, so people might infer that we aren’t happy…from the beginning to the end of the service, the pushy broad keeps trying to get me to take some cake…obviously a strong IOI…not bad looking…and I’m not interested in married broads…finally I managed to escape…when another man distracted her right after she said that she was going through a divorce by consoling her, I didn’t let the door hit my butt on the way out, lol…

  5. Wahoo

    “Any one else ever see the blankets bouncing at the park or beach?”


    When 15 or so. Fishing at a little lake which fronted a four lane highway with stoplights. Dude throws a blanket over he and girl and pumps away. Cars stopped at the light witness the motion. Old men amd ladies honking their horns, disgusted.

    It was 1 PM after all…

  6. Young Shagger, have you read mystery method? If you have then you understand that there are instinctive reasons inherent to your nature that will stop you from escalating the sexual nature of the encounter in a public setting. ie, the girl on your lap. this is a survival mechanism and not a bad thing so don’t kick yourself for passing the opportunity, as there are and were better ones all around you that you aren’t aware of.

    First off, in a school setting that is chaperoned you shouldn’t spin plates for physical sex, you either get a steady or jump like a rabbit from hole to hole,the maturity to wrangle a bevy of angels also depends on the mindset of the angels. I found it best to choose the best steady,then pick the rest from outside the social circle. Same as today.You can do whatever fells right,just understand there are repercussions.

    When making a choice in the hidden estrus market it is prudent to wait for the fertile phase when IOI’s are more obvious. This usually happens around the same time as a group of females will synchronize by nature and you will suddenly have interest where there was none before. This can be overwhelming if you are first noticing it, most males miss it as they are still stuck in their head wondering why she was mean last week and don’t notice the cues have changed as if by magic, just another natural phase. Females don’t run around with perpetual hardons like we do but they are more receptive at times in a regular 28day interval. When she hits the fertile phase and is receptive most males are already given up at even trying and miss it, she is wondering why.

  7. Palma

    Physical competence… thats the DHV

    It’s a very primal thing, her seeing you do something, almost anything really, with your hands, especially around the house. The opposite is her seeing you sitting on your ass watching TV.

    Goes back to “will their be Mastodon meat or not?”…

    For a while I got very complacent, was much cheaper and easier to just have someone fix things, do stuff etc. Never had any issues but after I started doing projects around the house again, saw a big uptick. Little stuff… change this or that. Nothing major even. Just activity, that didn’t involve her at all. Go to the hardware, get some stuff, a tool whatever, come back spend an hour doing something. Change an outlet, a hinge. Paint a room. etc. Huge impact.

    So, guys don’t get complacent… DHV around the house.

  8. Palmasailor
    I’m in shorts and shitty clothes and they’re giggling like schoolgirls, flicking their hair behind their ears and offering me “work” at their place

    They are not like schoolgirls, they are all girls. It’s just how they are.
    That 40-something or 50-something professional woman in the power suit? With the right sensory input she’ll giggle just as she did when she was 16 years old. Her inner teenager wants to come out and play; the hair twining is just the same as it was then, too.

    DHV around the house


  9. I’ve been told to post here,so here is my story:

    I am a 29 year old eastern european living in the UK. I am an engineer and make some good money, lift 3-4 times a week, do occasianally some mma in the evenings, ok dressed, but 5ft6 and balding :(. And guess what I can’t get pussy to save my life :D. I am thinking of taking the black pill. Just don’t see a way out of this, i bang hookers eveery now and then :D. I think black pill guys have it right, some things are genetics and you can’t win no matter how much you ” self improve” or ” think positively”.

    I go home ( eastern europe ) 1-2 times a year for a few weeks. And although I don’t bang any girls i have more IOIs there. For example with tinder I get 3-4 matches a week in UK, but back home i get 3-4 a day and most of them reply and a few agreed to meet ( although i never went out with any as I had to leave ) where as here in the UK less than 10% reply and never had anyone agreed to meet. I am not saying they are racist or something but they see my name, or hear me on the street with my accent and change their behaviour a bit and obviously I am not some alpha chad to offset that.

    So, I am really thinking of leaving the UK and going back home, although my career will suffer, so i am trying to figure out how to sort that out. Because the way I see it if I stay longer in the UK, i will for sure turn black pill and be incel ( its been 2 years since i got laid outside hookers ). Back home i will have more opportunities with more feminine women. But the question is, is it worth it going back home just for better opportunities with women at the expense of my career/professional development?

    I have a few friends who moved back and work remote for western company making good money and said its much better life for them socialising, woment,etc, problem is in my industry i can’t do that, which means i have to get a different job back home which will be quite the paycut. In the end is it really worth it, just to get some pussy, and more socialising? Isn’t men’s potential bigger than that? And i am succumbing to a basic need – pussy and social circle? I don’t know. Any advice please? Thanks

  10. “hear me on the street with my accent”

    Have you ever watched “A Fish Called Wanda?” Many women are turned on by foreign accents.

    Your problem isn’t what you think it is.

  11. “I feel like I missed 2 bangs honestly thinking about it now and now I am left with snapchats of missed bangs.”


    Uh no, they weren’t missed bangs. They were never-to-be bangs. Missed bangs are what PUA’s tell you to keep you on the hook to their go-to, soi-distant-never-fail algorithm hokum bullshit.

    It’s like kfg saying “I had to get divorced because this or that death and murder so I had to flee”. It’s back building a story for not getting the bigger picture IRT long before the failure-of-result happened.

    Know thyself and all this shit is superfluous. Most men here are building a facade of what they’d prefer to be. I did it too. No more, if I can help it.

    Back up my brother. It’s easy to get fooled by do-this, not-that, stuff. Sentient and SJF are on point.

    Recall the earlier conversation waaaay upstream. You are not binary nor is any given experience ATM fixed (no matter what MM or PUA’s tell you).

    Understand this: Correct….or fruitful…or consequential decision making is a matter of understanding in a physical, intellectual and emotional reason and…AND…an understanding that you must do it because it is the right thing to do…without regard to the former reason.

    Well now. That’s not rational!

    Hold up, bro….it is…if you grok you can not separate the two. ProTip: You are not an unsentimental machine nor a all-sentient. Don’t tell j that, he might wet himself.

    Time for a thought game.

    Think of the almost-lost wrestling matches you’ve won by 1 point in the last second…the genius moment.

    Did those wins happen by chance nor did it happen by pure skill…either-or…in the manosphere there’s no unknowns…you gotta choose…

    …but Alphas who actually win something of effort like you…don’t think about the if-then as they know to overthink is to ruin the gift of the moment.

    Q: You think this week’s MNF win was a if-then thought process or completely free-wheeled?

    A: Neither, yo.

  12. “Physical competence… thats the DHV

    It’s a very primal thing, her seeing you do something, almost anything really, with your hands.”

    Yeah. Todd talks about this in The System under evolutionary answers as to what is “Value”:

    Her watching you play the guitar, cooking, driving, playing sports…exceedingly well with absolute focus will turn her on. In a meta sort of way, gaming her well, “knowing the dance”, accomplishes the same.

  13. @palmasailor – ”Dunno, going out with a wing that good looking seems like needless hard mode.

    I did it by accident a few weeks back and he was a bloody liability because he was basically on fools mate.”

    lol – yeah, it’s not ideal. It’s an absolute eye-opener, though! If he was to write FR’s and stuff online, people would assume his game is amazing, but it’s really not! (starting to think that’s the case with the LR’s I read)
    Anyway, whatever. We still have a laugh. I’d rather game with him than go solo tbh

    Been in a bit of a slump recently, though. Can’t lie. Need to go back and read over my old FR’s to see if I can spot anything that I was doing that is different to recently! Kinda sruggling to hook the hot ones recently, and on the rare occasion I do, I struggle to keep their attention.

    Headed out to some music gig thing this weekend, but hoping to hit the bars after to hit on some girls

  14. @Palmasailor
    I don’t know, I just… I want a healthy balanced life, good job, social circle, some pussy, that’s it. Nothing too much really.

    I am a Frankie fan, the guy is a beast, former champ, but he is an outlier. There is also Chad Mendes, same height top 5 in featherweight who got a 5ft10 blonde. But these guys are top 0.001% in their field that gives them sort of a preselection stuff, doesn’t it? What about avg 5ft6 guy who is not top in anything and not alpha?

    I guess it’s not a problem most of the time.

  15. Aqualinespirit

    that gives them sort of a preselection stuff, doesn’t it? What about avg 5ft6 guy who is not top in anything and not alpha?

    That first link (pic did not display) is Frankie in high school. That girl with him then is the same girl he is with now. From when he was nobody, just a short guy with an attitude.

    Outliers all start from the same place. They make a decision. Demonstrable Alpha is the culmination of choices.

  16. Aquaman 10 point action plan

    Get Tinder Plus, use Passport feature to change location, and set up many meetups before you go on holiday (or travel to the location). Also get on Facebook dating (I’m starting to get good results).
    Join a public speaking club and give speeches.
    Take Improv classes.
    Read Mystery Method and watch videos on pickup. Key: boring kills attraction.
    On free days (weekends etc.) do both a day activity and an evening activity that involves a social setting with plenty of women, and talk to multiple women at each. Check local event calendars.
    Take various one-time trials or classes at various places, including yoga, cooking, art, and dancing.
    Go to a part of town you don’t know, and ask women for directions to a good coffee shop.
    At work look for all opportunities to attend conferences or take live training.
    Do one-time attendance at many religious or spiritual places. Bail if everybody is dead.
    Post field reports here of your interactions, and accept the feedback given.

    Plus the usual parties, events, weddings of your social circles.

  17. And as yareally said about a weekend almost here:

    It’s Halloween weekend. There is NO better weekend of the year to be out, solo or with a group. No one cares about age since everyone is in masks and shit

  18. Intellect

    I am trying to wrap my head around the core of what you are saying. Are you saying essentially not to overthink my female interaction action and to not be so formulaic? I feel like I am missing something but let me know.


  19. @YoungShagger

    I can’t speak for EhIntellect.

    He commented to you after we had an hour and a half talk on the phone last night. And I mentioned to him, your situational questions.

    There is a lot to figure out in Process. Which is a thing you will figure out in how to proceed. How to become Valedictorian. How to be State Champ in wrestling.

    “Are you saying essentially not to overthink my female interaction action and to not be so formulaic? “

    I think you got the question right/correctly…

    You are not binary nor is any given experience ATM fixed (no matter what MM or PUA’s tell you).

    Understand this: Correct….or fruitful…or consequential decision making is a matter of understanding in a physical, intellectual and emotional reason and…AND…an understanding that you must do it because it is the right thing to do…without regard to the former reason.

    Well now. That’s not rational!

    Hold up, bro….it is…if you grok you can not separate the two. ProTip: You are not an unsentimental machine nor a all-sentient. Don’t tell j that, he might wet himself. –EhIntellect

    There are forces against you. The manosphere is spiraling into a situation where men are overthinking things and trying to overcome hurdles of intersexual relationships by overthinking.

    The hurdles are not for nothing, but you want to approach them like you do wrestling and like you do getting your 4.55 GPA.

    EhIntellect has three sons. The oldest overthinks things, the two younger ones don’t. Both styles are fine. The goal is to end up in a Flow State. Similar to a winning wrestling match or lacrosse game.

    There is this obscure book called Reality Transurfing by Vadim Zeland. In it there are a couple concepts of facing hurdles. The main thrust of the book is to avoid having hurdles in front of you be high hurdles. And to mentally make them low hurdles to side-step easily. Not like a fly banging its head against a barrier window, but flying freely through the open door next to the window…

    A couple concepts in that book are:


    The energy of importance becomes present when disproportionate meaning is ascribed to something. Importance is pure excess potential and is eliminated by balanced forces creating problems for the person generating the potential. There are two kinds of importance: inner and outer.

    Inner or personal importance manifests when a person over-estimates their own virtues or shortcomings. The form of expression for inner importance sounds: “I am an important person”, or “I do important work”. When the arrow on the importance measure goes off the scales balanced forces come in and take things into their own hands. The “hot shot” then receives a good slap. Once balanced forces come into play disappointment also awaits the person whose work is so phenomenally important. Either there will turn out to be no demand for their work or the quality of the work will be shoddy. The other side of the coin is when a person self-deprecatingly downplays their own virtues playing smaller than they really are. In both cases the magnitude of excess potential produced is the same. The difference is only in the polarity expressed.

    Outer importance is also artificially created when a person attributes excessive meaning to an object or event in the outside world. The form of expression for outer importance might sound: “Such and such is extremely important to me” or “it is extremely important to me to do such and such…” This generates excess potential which ruins everything. Imagine having to walk along a log lying on the ground. Nothing could be simpler. But what if you had to walk along the same log placed across the roofs of two high-rise buildings? The short stroll would become extremely important to you and there would be nothing you could do to convince yourself otherwise.

    Another is:

    Coordination of Importance

    Do not attribute excessive meaning to anything. Your importance energy is beneficial to the pendulum but not to you. Pendulums control people like puppets with the strings of importance. People are afraid to let go of the strings of importance because they are under the power of dependence which creates an illusion of support and confidence.

    Confidence represents the same kind of excess potential as insecurity; it is just the opposite polarity. Awareness and intention equip you to stay out of the pendulum’s game and get what you want with having to battle for it. When you are free from the battle you do not need confidence. If I am free from importance I have nothing to defend and nothing to conquer. I just go ahead and calmly make my choices.

    To become free of pendulums you have to abandon inner and outer intention. Problems and obstacles appear on the path towards the goal because of the excess potential of importance. Obstacles are built on the foundation of importance. If importance is reduced the obstacles will crumble and cease to pose a problem.

    So yeah, don’t be so formulaic, but generate your formulas as you go along.

    Not getting laid for six months won’t kill you until wrestling season and academic season ends at the end of your senior year. You are going to have a field day at the end of senior year and next summer. Look forward to that release from constraint.

    Don’t think in formulaic or binary terms. All of life is integrating your on the-job-work with filling-in-the-blanks-of-time with inter-sexual pursuits. You have plenty of in-between time. The 15 minutes here and there that you can fill with interacting with girls. The free time you will have next summer…

    Life and work and play and penetrating the world is one big integrated dance. And its not just a herky-jerky dance at homecoming. It’s a graceful dance of integrating non-binaries. It’s not like “If I can’t have you, I don’t want nobody baby..”

    So interact with girls in class and in the hallway, stick to your goals of being Valedictorian and State Champ. And go with the flow and learn.

    Learn Game. Don’t be so herky-jerky socially. Get a social circle of guys and girls that are like minded. Separately. Have a guy group and get tight with them. Esp. in college. Don’t allow losers. Get good guys you really resonate with. Have each other’s backs. Drive each other to do what is best for each individual. Separately have guy/girl groups. When more than one girl joins a group of guys, guess what?. The dynamic changes. Realize the distinction.

    All the best to you.

    BTW, What themes do you plan to address in your Valedictory Speech?

  20. Youngshagger,

    You’re understanding it well enough. Any given situation is a combination of the sensible known (physical, emotional, intellectual) AND that which can not be quantified (this part TRM refuses to address, fyi).

    Science is an observation of nature. It is not NATURE. RP is an observation of the intersexual dynamic. It is definitely not THE dynamic.

    Free advice is generally worth what it costs you. Therefore I’m not likely to tell you to do anything specific. I do want you to understand some concepts, though.

    PUA and MM and such speak to the known as they prefer to see them and call it all there is as to leave anything unaddressed creates questions of it all. They LOOOOVE post hoc analysis as PUAs in a queer voyeur way dispense unverifiably effective and yet bullet-proof advice. Any contradictions in theory are dismissed and usually a recrimination of ignorance is leveled to shut down any inquiry.

    Full stop. Another example.

    After-action reports and debriefings are only so good as all the information becomes known. That where the value ends. Any assumption that things could have been done better by this way or that way may be true, may be not true, but one thing is true: the past as you’ve experienced it will never occur again as it did then, and any specific advice to help you deal with something that’ll NEVER happen just as it once did is generally worthless.

    Suggestions can be made but for j to say there were missed bangs because you have shit game is mental manipulation of you. PUAs live in a fantasyland of torturing time, talent, and treasure from needful young men.

    Get it?

    You can’t predict the future and the past literally doesn’t exist but you can understand people’s motivations in the now. When I mean understand I mean legitimately care to know the part of them that is WYSIWYG (TRM style psycho-physico-evo-bio whatever) and understand there is something beyond your sensible abilities that propels you to be, well, you and accept the same of others..

    Understanding yourself as a infused mixture of body and that x-factor is what I’m getting at. As much as we know about the human body people are yet dying. As much as PUA’s jerk-off to their own boss stacks and nifty break-downs they still can’t get everyone laid. They’re frankly not getting themselves laid without a lot of weird try-too-hard and such.

    Sidebar: I go out 3-5x a week and see these PUA guys occasionally. They are terrible in the field as they can’t relax. They are all up in the process of do-this, not that and and any half-sentient smells fraud. FYI.

    In conclusion: yes, Youngshagger, thinking your way to sex is overwrought. Sex will come to you once you fall in love with the idea that you really don’t have to control everything as you really can’t. All that extra energy spent micromanaging a perfect lay or speech or wrestling-academic career becomes secondary and assumes it rightful (correct) useful position in your life. All that labor and desire and fear and such is an observation of your life…it is not your life…you know? All that happens then naturally from you knowing (really knowing) that the part of you that is just out of your understanding should stay there and that’s ok.

    Then you can be ok with you as you are RIGHT NOW.

    Guess what, my man, figure that out and you’ll gain relaxation and clarity and peace of mind you’ve never had. Others will find you unbelievably attractive and sexy and pleasurable. The sex will wash over you like a wave as women draw to that as the moon draws water.

    That simple.

  21. @passerby

    Don’t have it. Way of Gun is one of his earlier products. Without much technical game. More 101 basic shit that we all know today. So you’re not missing out.

    His 2013 product, Seduction MMA, is the one I would really recommend. If you haven’t checked it out already (GirlsChase interviewed Gun a couple months ago, if you wanna listen to a quick 30 minute overview first ( (SMMA Link here:


    Not yet. David Swift said on their Facebook group that the book is now complete. They had to make a couple of changes which caused the delay. No date was given for the release, but I’ll post it here when its out.

  22. “More 101 basic shit that we all know today. So you’re not missing out.”

    Gunwitch back in 2013 on his old method (this was before SMMA) :

    Remember this was like 2000, there was 2 pages of mystery method, double your dating and speed seduction. We didn’t exactly have what many would call captain obvious materials laying around to just be grabbed up and studied. It’s easy to Monday morning quarterback when you’ve learned all the principles I brought back from the field after years of practice, on the first day you entered the community. If you arrived in 1999 and didn’t have them, you would have taken a while to figure them out, a painful annoying tear filled long while, it sucked, bad at times.

    But the method stuff is like I said a combination of it being old, and being common community knowledge now. In its day however it revolutionized everything to the point it made me a lot of money and a lot of “fame” within the community for good reason. I’m not demanding anything though on that, respect, money etc, not trying to live off my reputation. Instead I have been in field working on new stuff, trying to solve the “hook” problem. Basically every stage of the game has really super solid techniques one can quickly utilize that work consistent, but the hook stage is always iffy, really inner game and vibe based, its why no one is 100% approach to lay of course, it’s chaotic, like the initial scramble in a fist fight, you have to be working on auto pilot to always hook, or use stuff that sexually disqualifies you later to always hook. I’ve gotten a lot of damn good results lately using some fairly innovative strategies I will be introducing soon. Then in 2020 people can “say duh that was obvious” about it and 20 new gurus can rewrite it in their own books haha, meanwhile i’ll get my pats on the back and my dough though, no skin off my ass

  23. @aqualinespirit

    Having a lot of money won’t necessarily make you happy. Having desire sex with a hot girl won’t necessarily make you happy either.

    But having the skills to get all that can bring a lot of fulfilment to your life.

    Sort it out.

    So first things first.

    5ft6 and balding

    Too much focus on that, you have other internal things to worry about.

    [Rollo’s spam filter doesn’t like the link to 5ft2 Cupid Shmupid watching his pickup videos with his girlfriend, you can look it up on youtube]

    I think black pill guys have it right, some things are genetics and you can’t win no matter how much you ” self improve” or ” think positively”.

    And you say that because… girls online don’t swipe right?

    I go home ( eastern europe ) 1-2 times a year for a few weeks. And although I don’t bang any girls i have more IOIs there.

    Let’s see… online again?

    For example with tinder

    Ok so my suggestion is not to do online dating. You may get somewhere with that eventually, but it’ll cripple your progress if you’re not doing enough in real life. Online dating tilts the playing field in favor of the female imperative and contributes to atrophy of important social (and seduction) skills. Besides, quality of girls online is lower, many are there for attention only, they’re expectations don’t match their smv, etc.

    Just do yourself a favor and shift your focus to irl. You’ll hit more sticking points, build confidence and get closer to achieving your goals much faster.

    if I stay longer in the UKdon’t improve my game, i will for sure turn black pill and be incel

    There, FIFY.

    What about avg 5ft6 guy who is not top in anything and not alpha?

    Each journey starts somewhere.

    Where are you with talking to girls in social settings? Girls are where you find them.

  24. Youngshagger,

    “I feel like I am missing something but let me know.”

    You’re asking all the right questions as your conscience senses incongruity. Good on you.

    Try it this way: “Not overthinking” isn’t the lack of thought as purity isn’t the lack of dirt.

    They are two wholly different states of existence.

    Imagine this: You are to wrestle a chump so you slapdash any few moves and reverses and takedowns for fun and it really doesn’t matter much if your technique is stellar as he’s got nothing. This is what the manosphere generally describes as “not overthinking” They don’t know what they are talking about.

    Now imagine wrestling like-caliber opponents. All that capriciousness disappears and you assume a wholly different serious-as-a-heart-attack state of mind. You know better than to stick to a regimented plan but your principles are reflexively understood. Every opponent nuance and feint are noted IRT as well as any loss of concentration you might have. You know what wins and it all happens in a split second. That here is “not overthinking”. It is the beauty of UNDERSTANDING to direct ACTION…without any stop in your intellect.

    Note that what is flow in one part of your life is no different that other parts. Most men create a confection of themselves of mutually exclusive parts loosely cobbled together and they lament that . Look Youngshagger, you’re operating at such a high character and ability that even I am honored to write about this to you. Most men have egos to protect and will advise you as they see the world as that’s all they know and assume you should too. They’re kinda jealous of your youth and potential and then advise you, turn you into a PUA Frankenstein retard rather than something personally you, as that’s all they know.

    They can’t conceive being a sherpa. Sherpas exist for level-headed advice tailored for your particular journey….NOT there to tell you your journey is cacked or you should climb the mountain they choose for you.

    You’re young (but not that young) so you naturally believe older guys know something you don’t. Don’t you for one NY second believe it. You, as everyone at any age, can be manipulated except when you’re older it costs a lot more and hurts the pride and such.

    Anyways I hope this helps. You reduce yourself away from layers of PUA get-laid-now-ask-me-how you’ve slathered on liberally and you’ll see someone you didn’t know existed. Remember: A little dog-doo in your gallon of ice cream tastes all like dog doo. You’re smart enough to recognize facile sophistry IRL. You’ve got the skills already to kill it with women. You don’t need technique. You need to find that pure ice cream within.

  25. @j ”but the hook stage is always iffy”

    Is gun talking about how he finds it difficult to ‘hook’ the set (which would then give him a chance to run the ‘3 keys’?) even now? (I think he says that in the interview too)

    I find hooking the hardest thing by far, but often, if I AM able to reach to hook point, i’m able to do well almost on autopilot (presumably hitting the 3 keys naturally by just trying to be fun and also flirting etc)
    But then again, that COULD be because my game ‘post hook’ is decent, but there’s also the nagging thought that the girls who hook simply like how I look (and so LET me hook) and thus they obviously easier to get in bed (if that makes sense)! lol

    Are there any infields of gun out of interest? He talks a good game but I honestly find it hard to imagine him pulling off the results he claims after seeing what he looks like and even listening to him speak

  26. @ford

    “Is gun talking about how he finds it difficult to ‘hook’ the set (which would then give him a chance to run the ‘3 keys’?)”

    Yeah. The purpose of hooking (attraction) is to buy you time, so you can run the three keys on her (seduction). Which is what we want to do, if we want to give ourselves the highest % of getting what we want.

    “if I AM able to reach to hook point”

    “there’s also the nagging thought that the girls who hook simply like how I look (and so LET me hook) and thus they obviously easier to get in bed (if that makes sense)! lol”

    yeah that makes sense. When you’re in a really good state and the girl you approach happens to like you from the get-go (looks+subcommunications), you can get away with a lot, and not even have to do a lot of the stuff I’ll talk about below, and still get laid.

    However at the end of the day, game is about consistency. And if you were satisfied with the results you’re getting, then you wouldn’t be asking about this. So I’m assuming you want to be able to hook the girls you like, but perhaps don’t immediately like you from the start?

    Well, here’s how the PUAs who get laid like rockstars do it.

    They’ll start out, like naturals, looking for Approach Invites (subtle or overt AIs). If they aren’t getting AIs then they move on to shadowing. That is, disappearing into the crowd, and positioning yourself in “no see zones” so you can spot potential targets. Those would be, attractive girls who are either:

    Looking around every so often while talking with her friends
    Walking around back and forth around the club

    Then, they’ll pick their target, and position themselves in the green areas in the above graphic, and hover next to her, then open. Or they’ll simply “accidentally” bump into her.

    In the beginning phase of the seduction, you’ll want to utilize more expressions to get her hooked (later on, emphasis should be on rewarding and exploring topic to set sexual frames).

    Remember the Investment Model:

    Expression -> Investment Hoop -> Reward -> Explore Topic -> Repeat

    So spike (cold read/tease/self amuse) with a situational opener, then throw her an Investment Hoop (asking her to do/reveal something i.e. reveal her name, what’s she doing here, move a couple feet to the left etc.). Then based on the answer she gives you, spike again. and throw her another Investment hoop.

    Early phase (This should not be ALL you do. This is dancing monkey RSD game. Which leads to her getting her emotions spiked, then thanking you and leaving the set to go back to their friends. We are after Investment. This early phase stuff, is only a means to get what we want. Remember my point at the beginning, about buying us time to run the 3 keys):

    Expression -> Investment Hoop -> Expression -> Investment Hoop -> in quick successions.

    If she doesn’t get spiked from your opener then keep walking and reapproach her later. By not staying in and trying to plow only to get outright rejected (“Can you like fuck off” – destroying your chances of building social proof in that venue), you can reapproach her later on, once you’re in a good state + social proofed.

    The expression, you’ll really want to utilize the most is the 1-2 combo of cold reads + intrigue (but obviously switch it up with the other expressions) Cold reads/assumptions that have built in intrigue which is what really hooks em in.

    “oh you’re Brazilian huh?. I hope your not the same as what I’ve heard about other Brazilian girls”. – intrigue

    “actually I don’t think so, your vibe is like so different from the other Brazilian girls I know” – further intrigue (what is it that I’ve heard about other Brazilian girls and why is her vibe different from theirs?)

    P.S. – You don’t HAVE to close your hoops by telling her what your assumption about her is (“actually never mind i’ll tell you later”.) Then switch topic (“but what were you saying earlier. its your friends birthday tonight?”)


    BTW this is a good technique for your other sticking point: Running out of things to say (sometimes girls don’t have anything to say either. And they’ll leave only to get away from the awkward silence (that is, if you don’t eject first lol).

    “Hey you know you remind me of this girl I was with a while back. Only that she didn’t really speak english all that well, so we had a lot of these kind of awkward silences haha. It was kinda awkward but cute in a way”.

    “Have you ever been with a guy that didn’t really speak english that well?”


    “Have you ever been to a country were you didn’t speak the language at all and had a lot of awkward conversations?”

    if you get “no” to any of these, don’t eject. Spike.

    To the first one, “No? oh so only english speaking guys turn you on, huh? (spike). So besides them speaking English, What’s like the most important quality you look for in a guy? (investment hoop).

    To the second one, “figures. you don’t strike me as a girl who likes to move away from her comfort zone (spike. albeit a negative one). So you’re telling me you’ve never done anything that at first you thought was scary? (investment hoop. give her a chance to prove that she takes risks – which is one of the traits conductive to SNLs I want her to demonstrate).

  27. @J – I prefer some of your examples to Gunwitches (more on that in a bit)

    Yes, I want to get better at hooking girls who AREN’T into how i look. Usually I ask girls in the morning why/when they liked me, and it’s basically always along the lines of ‘You just had the look I go for so when you said hi, I decided we’d probably hook up’ kind of thing. (ps – not to make it sound like i’m some sort of handsome stud. That’s not the case as ALL! But i’ve learnt there are some hot girls out there who have unique taste when it comes to looks! I’ve banged some girls that my mates literally can’t believe, and I know it was down to ‘looks’!)

    So yeah, i’ve been playing around with various gurus ‘verbals’ (not just their words but the theory/concepts) directly after opening, but yet to see much improvement when it comes to these ‘no girls’ tbh. I often come away from it thinking that I ether (A) said something ‘weird’ (trying to implement ‘game’ so maybe a neg or a cold read etc that they hated) or (B) that I just bored them (on the approaches where I was saying normal guy shit, and just concentrating more on just ‘being present’ and relaxed and not worrying at all about what to say etc, taking TylerRSD’s advice).
    Kind of ‘damned if I do, damned if I don’t’ lol

    Back to your examples, Gunwitch, and what I was saying:

    I was listening to his ‘how to hook’/what to say after ‘hi’ advice, and his example was like:

    ”Hi. I’m gun. I noticed that you look like someone who builds walls around themselves. You’re maybe guarded around strangers, but I think you are super loyal to your friends but maybe sometimes people try to take advantage of you and it upsets you? Does that make sense??”’

    Now, i’m not sure where he lives or what sort of girls he’s opening like that, but I just know for certain that if I open the girls I meet with that sort of shit, they might well be sick in their handbag! I think @palmersailor might be able to back me up here, being a fellow Brit!! It sounds so fake and gamey and awkward to my ear to say that to someone you haven’t ‘met’ yet, but he’s the pro PUA so maybe it’s a culture thing and it sounds good to you guys? I don’t know.

    So I prefer your examples, although they’re kind of similar to the sort of stuff I came up with. I’m currently trying to think of some mini ‘gambits’/hooks/cold reads etc. Would be easier if I was meeting Foreign girls etc where I could play with the nationality etc like in one of your examples, but all the girls I meet are just local girls, born and raised…in bars…..guard very much ‘up’, and with their social circle, seemingly not wanting to be approached.

    Either way, Out tomorrow night and will make at least 10 approaches!

  28. All right guys. Been going through a lot. First breakup, learning a lot, mostly that I’m not over it when I mistakenly thought I was, even though it’s been a long time. Moving on: I’ve been listening to the Mystery Method audible book for a couple days now, got Palma’s book on the “Bean Farmer” type routines and been sifting through that. I’m trying to get into a headspace where I can start practicing Game. Feels very overwhelming. Anyway, this is not really a “field report” and this is gonna be rough. But this is where I’m at.

    So, market. Very small local one.

    There was some elderly lady, maybe 80 years old, I tried making some small talk with. I held up a pineapple and just said “Man. These things are just way too much work.” She laughed. Hard to tell if she looked uncomfortable though. Then I asked if she got produce here often (L-O-fucking-L). She seemed really uncomfortable and said “Sometimes” while averting eye contact and walked away. Briefly imagined myself tying a bag around my head connected to a big helium tank with tubing and just lying down in my room and killing myself. Then I laughed it off. Kind of. Moving on!

    Walked by a couple other girls. I just didn’t have the nerve. It really hit me with that old lady: I feel like I’m bothering people, that if I say anything at all, I’m just going to get shafted, weird looks, no responses, and that I’m being a weirdo. So I just don’t say anything. The girls weren’t attractive but I still felt intense anxiety at the idea of approaching them and saying something, or even just walking up next to them and making some comment about something I was considering buying or shopping for or whatever.

    Same anxiety existed whether it was some random girl, an elderly man or woman, or anyone else. There’s just this absolutely intense dis-ease of the idea of approaching anyone at all. Part of that is not being in a venue. I don’t have Game yet but I was at least able to use the fact that I like giving massages (and actually know how to do so semi-professionally) and using cigarettes as openers without much anxiety because it’s expected you’ll talk to people. With one girl I heard saying she wished she had a cigarette, I went up and asked her how her night was going, and while she answered, I looked at her funny. Then I said “What the hell is that?” while looking at the side of her head. She looked panicked and said “What? What is it?” Then I reached my hand behind her ear, brushed her hair to the side and touched her ear and then pulled my hand back to reveal a cigarette I had slipped between my fingers, put it between her lips and then offered to light it for her. She laughed pretty hard and then said something to the tune of “you’re too much,” but in a playful, fun way.

    That was the girl I didn’t close with but ended up calling me over and asking me to sit next to her, asked me if she could lay down on my lap, etc.; some point before that I just decided to give her a massage out of nowhere and she was completely receptive to it, was leaning back and hugging me at the end, etc.

    So I need to remind myself that while I don’t really have Game at all (yet – it’s just a skill I have not developed at all), it’s not like I’m mentally retarded and socially crippled to the point where I’m 100% broken and can’t develop Game ever. Which is what I tell myself….and need to stop telling myself. I’ve only had minor successes in the past but they are successes nonetheless.

    Anyway. Back on track:

    Cashier works there that’s kind of cute. She always greets me pretty eagerly when I go there. Today she was working on the floor. She touched my arm quickly as I walked by and said “I haven’t seen you here in a while.” So there’s an IOI. She asks me how I’ve been, and I just replied honestly with no Game, “Oh you know. Slowly losing my mind.”

    She laughed a little and said “Oh yeah. Aren’t we all.” I overheard her talking to her friend that works there as well that she likes blasting country music while she’s driving.

    As I’m checking out I mentioned that. “I heard you like country music.” She made some comment about oh yeah, just something about it when I’m driving. Then I was feeling nervous and just defaulted to some AFC bullshit, said I played guitar and I really like bluegrass, but it’s tough to play and I couldn’t quite get it yet. She seemed uninterested (as expected) and said something dismissive like “Oh, I’m sure you’ll get it. Have a nice day” and that was that. I knew I fucked up immediately but I was just not prepared and was also way too anxious.

    I thought afterwards that maybe I could’ve used a super slight neg, like after asking about country music, maybe something like “I heard you like country music. I’m hoping it’s the good kind of country music?” And gotten her to talk about herself, and not be afraid of cutting the interaction short. I was checking out, after all, can’t stand there forever.

    I was thinking of Palma’s book and asking questions to get people to talk about themselves. I panicked and mentioned some boring irrelevant bullshit about myself because….I panicked. And did not have a plan. I was looking at all the people in the market and realized I have no openers, and also am absolutely terrified of opening anyone, including elderly citizens, and felt intense shame after that old lady got uncomfortable and averted eye contact and walked away.

    So I need to start at Square One. Openers. I’m learning now that Attraction – Comfort – Seduction is the process. So I need to learn Attraction. Come up with some canned material. I was thinking of Palma and thinking I should invent a character for myself. Like if someone asks me how I’m doing, I can reply with some crazy story. Like how the cult I’ve been running is doing OK, but we’re short on members, so if they’re interested in being recruited, let me know. I’m also considering an Assistant Druid position because the workload’s been getting a bit heavy, especially with the ritual virgin sacrifices. You wouldn’t believe how hard it is to find virgins these days.

    Anyway, obviously I can appreciate the creative aspect and I feel like it would be fairly easy for me to come up with some characters, some absurd but fun things that could also communicate my personality. And just be fun in general. But I’m not sure where to work these stories in or how to throw them in seamlessly. Feels like I need to learn how to create an “opening” like with an opener, and get a conversation, back and forth banter, going a bit, before throwing some absurdities in. But I’m not sure how to create that opening.

    Practicing openers is basically the most terrifying idea in the world to me, at least at a supermarket or gas station or anywhere else I normally go. Parties/party venues, I feel like it would be easier because I feel people generally accept that that’s an “OK” thing to do, whereas at least around here, talking to ANYONE at a supermarket or any other place seems to run a high risk of being looked at like you have 3 heads, or are a serial killer or rapist. That is a very tough idea for me to move past and the idea of opening anyone just to practice feels so wrong and so unsafe to me.

  29. Ford

    You never listen so…

    “not to make it sound like i’m some sort of handsome stud. That’s not the case as ALL! But i’ve learnt there are some hot girls out there who have unique taste when it comes to looks! I’ve banged some girls that my mates literally can’t believe, and I know it was down to ‘looks’!)”

    You realize that is an inconsistent statement right?


    Welcome to conscious game. So now you have Approach Anxiety. Time to get to work. And lose the self deprecating humor. You are not in a Woody Allen movie.

  30. @Sentient


    Also going over “When I Say No I Feel Guilty” audible book as recommended by SJF a long time ago. The self deprecating humor is a symptom of a lack of assertiveness/low self worth and I agree I should ditch it. It is not in line with how I want to be perceived or how I want to perceive myself.

    It comes out as a manifestation of anxiety and an urge to ‘correct’ the anxiety. The bodily sensations feel similar as to when someone asks me to do something and I automatically feel obligated to say “yes,” or when a “friend” tries to shame/guilt me for not doing what they want me to do. I’m still at Square One with that as well. I’m getting better at saying “no” but am still feeling a lot of pressure from “friends” who demand my time and energy almost vampirically.

    It’s like a pre-emptive “disarming” but ironically it only serves to work against me and doesn’t “disarm” anything. Self-deprecation belongs in the trash. The breakup I’ve been going through has been a huge wakeup call to the necessity of actually being a man. Self-deprecation and masculinity do not mix. Thanks for calling me out on that. It’s a nasty habit that needs to die.

  31. A couple of quick data points from me:

    -Was just in a trendy coffee shop. Full of English speaking tourists. Australian couple late 20s come in. Girl is blonde HB6 (well, I like blondes and big tits – some of you would call her a HB5.5). Boyfriend obviously beta. Girl opens me (something about the coffee I’m drinking). Asks if I’m a tourist too or I live her. I’m telling her about my training etc and she’s eating it up “Oh that’s so cool” etc (and then BF joined conversation and built me up too). Frustratingly, I can TELL I’m just in “social” mode, and even that had great reactions. But I kept kind of internally telling myself “Okay, switch it ON – lock on the laser eyes and change your body language – you KNOW what to do – you have 100% plausible deniability, you just need to do the eyes/distance/smirk/body language to change the vibe completely” but it’s like this resistance – just felt weird to actually do it.

    -Second data point speaking of women from my past – got a message on Facebook a couple weeks ago from a girl I was in high school with but haven’t seen for like 25 years. She had a thing for me in high school but was super-average looking and a bit fat so I wasn’t really interested even then (if I’d been aware, which I wasn’t – I was oblivious of course). Fast forward to late 30s and she’s dropped a lot of weight and presents herself way better and is a lot more bangable overall. Not married though.

    Message to me asking for my phone number because she’s setting up a chat group for our high school class (note: two weeks now, no group that I’ve actually been added to ). I give it to her and she says “BTW it’s my birthday today” [40th although she doesn’t say] and I’m like “Happy Birthday, I hope it is memorable because it is easier to forget birthdays as we get older”. Then she’s like “Why? how can you not remember my birthday??” and then immediatey (before I can reply), goes on to say “Thanks! I was just teasing you…sorry if I overstepped my limits”. Then “But you know what…I’m actually not sorry [emoji] – just teasing”.

    Me (next day): “LOL. So you’re that kind of girl” [I didn’t have any thoughts except to emotionally spike her a bit]
    Her” “What kind of girl??”

    Me: “Oh nothing. Maybe something to discuss if we ever meet. [emoji]
    Her: [puzzled emoji]

    NOTE: She replies almost immediately. I usually take a day to reply.

    A week after the above exchange:

    Her: “Why would you say that??”
    Me: ( a day later): “One for over a drink I think – where do you live these days”
    Her: [City]

    Me (two days later): “We should meet up sometime – let me know if you’re in [my city] or I’ll let you know if I’m in yours.

    I just sent the last message so no reply yet but it’s interesting to see – why did she message me in the first place if no group? Just how much was she thinking about me for the last week before reinitiating??

  32. @Palma

    No, I didn’t reinitiate with Facebook girl. She did. She was thinking about my comment all week, and she reinitiated. THEN I said we should meet up if we’re in the same town etc. She’s definitely keen, no doubt about it.

    The rest of your post I agree with.

    Honestly, it’s not practical for me to go all the way to see her – even when I’m back in the states, I don’t travel anywhere near her. I don’t really care to bang her either – I mean sure I would if it was offered up on a plate, but I can bang girls like her whenever I want. Not worth making an effort to do.

    As for the coffee shop girl..I’m not going out to bang this year (in fact I’m hardly going out at all with the other stuff in my life). I’m just living my life and trying to integrate being “on” all the time. One aspect of that is engaging with people day to day much more, and I actually did pretty well in the sense that I normally would not be so social or get into a chat with strangers like that (outside a “Blitz” period). So that’s progress. What I should have done is also flip the “sexualiztation” switch to “on” – and I didn’t quite flip that switch. But it’s progress.

  33. PS – The Facebook girl story I only mentioned because it came so soon after Conference Girl and was so similar. Similar dynamics etc. Interesting how an abject beta like my teenage/early 20s self could still leave enough of an impact for these girls to hit me up so much later.

  34. Culum

    “why did she message me in the first place if no group? Just how much was she thinking about me for the last week before reinitiating??”

    The fuck I am reading here? You KNOW why.

  35. Palma

    “But the thing is, if I really can’t see a route to the mattress (which I couldn’t with the slim hot women at the bar last week) then I take whatever fun I can get and move on to one where I can see a route to the mattress.”

    Well that’s pretty much what Culum is doing here, except he’s cloaking it in feigned ignorance… 😉

    I’m with HABD, push all the sets as hard as you can – especially when you are fighring things out or practicing.

    It’s only “free” validation for them if you actually give them something, something from yourself. Otherwise it’s you having the fun.

    With this bird’s nest on the ground here that Culum has, I’d push it hard for kicks. And knowledge. Make predictions, see if they pan out. Be outrageous see how far you can go… Culum use that OLD experience and get her sending pics and doing herself over you. Just for a laugh.


    Well to sexualize you have to actually you know, sexualized. Just take the step. Do it. For the reference experience. You don’t need to be graphic, just a little playful. Maybe sometging with the tourists like “Have you had the local (whatever)? They say it’s an aphrodisiac”.

    Just something a little coy to get it on the table. Almost all girls will play a long a bit. Because they like sex, are usually underserved, and like having fun.

    You’re doing it for fun amd setting your frame, as “one of those guys”. Not to arouse her.

  36. Palma

    To be clear “pushing” in this context means staying in set and running your best, calibrated game, with the goal of banging SNL.

  37. Quick FR for the brain-trust
    Went to Brighton to see a gig with old friends

    I a bar before hand and there’s a 3-set. All average. Use it to warm up and approach them and tell them they look kinca grungy and ask if they’re going to the gig. They laugh. I tease one about her boots (they’re super unusual. Brighton is a very ‘quirky’ area!). My friend joins the set. I pic the one I like and cold read her and she tells me she’s Spanish. I say something lke ”Is it true what they say about Spanish girls?” (kind of throwing some bait) and she hooks and is like what??! ”What do they say?!!” I smile at her and then turn to her friend and comment on her drink. The Spanish one is tapping me and I turn back to her and banter a little. My friend seems to be doing OK too. However, a bench nearby became free as a group got up to leave, and one of the girls just grabbed her friends wrists and literally marched them over to the seats without saying anything lol. Was mildly shocked as the set seemed to be going well! We obviously could have followed them but seemed needy (they certainly didn’t invite us lol) pluss it was only a warm up set and none of them were amazingly hot

    Then we go to the gig. There’s quite a few hot girls in there but they’re all seemingly with guys, plus it was loud as hell! I

    I opened one very hot girl kinda directly, but she just pointed at her boyfriend as if to say ‘Sorry, i’m with him” lol

    I went to the bar area and there’s a 2 set. I opened with a tease about them not being able to handle the mosh pit inside the venue and it gets a laugh and they’re both receptive. Again, these 2 aren’t that hot and they’re my age. I like much younger lol. But the set went well. They were asking lots of questions. I played around and went kinda sexual and set that kind of frame and one of them started using ToddV type lines on me lol (calling me ‘trouble’ and doing some kind of ‘push-pull’ stuff). My wingman is the only person I know in real life whose heard about ‘game’. He introduced me to the mysterymethod! However, he’s actually never really had any success with cold approach. But he’s engaging these girls. The girls offer to buy us a drink (generous. Venue is expensive!) but our other friends want to leave now to go toto another bar before we have to catch the last train

    On the way out I spot a very pretty, curly haired girl. I open her about her hair. Just ramble and flirt and again she’s fairly receptive. I’m starting to think that it’s more a ‘Brighton’ thing where girls are much friendlier than the places I tend to go! I felt like I was opening with the same ‘vibe’ and words as usual, but usually I get much worse reactions. Super strange. Me and this girl are chatting but soon after some guy comes in and kisses her on the cheek and kinda pulls her away. (probably BF)

    On the way to the bar and there’s 2 blonde STUNNERS sitting by themselves on a bench with nobody around them. They’re also dressed up in haloween clothes. Both 18. both 9’s. I open them and just ask why they’re sitting around like a couple of zombies and what they’re up too and again they’re surprisingly receptive and friendly. I say a few things and make them laugh. However, my friends are calling me from across the road saying we need to go into the bar together as he’s reserved a place or something and I leave the girls. I don’t know why I didn’t ask them to come with me. They were straight up gorgeous.

    Go into the new bar. We only have 25 mins left before we need to go. I’m in the beer garden and 2 pretty girls (8’s) stand near me. I open them and just say ‘Who are you?!’ and yet again they are both really receptive, turn towards me and smile and start speaking. I detect their accents (French) and start playing around a little. Pretend to be able to speak French. The one who is giving me IOI’s is 20 and is the hottest. Her friend is like 17 with a fake ID. Gives me more material to banter about. Set is going really well. All of my friends are watching but don’t come to wing me though. I showed a little more intent in this set. Made it clear which one i was into too. I had to leave though, so told her to put my number in her phone as I go to Brighton sometimes and we could meet up. I tell her my number, give her a peck on the cheek and leave.

    I realised after that i’m an idiot and should have got HER number. However, When I was in the train, she text me saying ‘Changed my mind. I don’t wanna go home now. What bar are you at?”. Told her I was in a train on my way home. She then text me again basically saying it was fun meeting me and she’d be happy to go out with me when i’m next there. Don’t know if anything will come of it, but i’ll shoot her a text around the time i’m next there anyway.

    Not unhappy with the night. No harsh insta rejections that I remember. No awkward interactions really and my sticking points didn’t seem as pronounced last night. I think it’s more about the location, though

    edit: Not quite true. Just remembered one more set on my way home in the train. Some girl moved her stuff for me so that I could sit down. Youngish. Pretty face, but a bit chubby. I open her and chat, and I decide to go more direct in this set and ‘lay it on pretty thick’ as we say here! She kinda shoots me down and I remain playful and unaffected, and she carries on asking me things and talking, despite rejecting me. I carry on chatting. I don’t have long as I have to get off at the next stop! I know some guys get results with really direct game and I try one more time and hit her with some ‘Russel Brand’ style game (I saw a vid once of him gaming some girl in a similar situation and he was like ”Look, we’ll be old one day. Are you gonna regret the time you went home with that handsome English man with nice hair?!!! I doubt it!”’ lol. She shot me down again, though. Probably didn’t help that my friends were all close by, tbh!

    Hometime. Was fun

  38. Oh, also last weeks FR I mentioned a girl who I was chatting too and it seemed to be going well but she just left with her friends kind of abruptly even though I kind of sensed attraction
    My friend told me last night that his girlfriend is a friend of a friend of that girl, and she’s been asking about me and apparently likes me so watch this space as i’m sure she’ll feature in a future FR -See if I can mes it up or not 😉

  39. @IRL

    “Where are you with talking to girls in social settings? Girls are where you find them.”

    Yeah, about that, I haven’t spoken with a girl in social setting since i broke up with my ex 2 years go, only chatting on tinder and POF,etc.
    I rarely go out, a bit nervous in social settings, I just go to work,gym,home. That’s it. I don’t know where to meet women or how to start, which is why i tried the online dating apps.
    Another problem is that i have no social circle, no friends, nothing, I have a few friends but they live in other countries now and have kids, i see them once a year maybe. Its bad man, I am 29 years old and didn’t expect life to be that bad at this age.

  40. Aqualinespirit

    Well you’ll have to get out of your house. Go to coffee shops, food courts and bars at happy hour to start. Socialize.

  41. aqualinespirit

    So what are you going to do about it?

    And how can we help you?

    At least you are starting with step 1. Admitting you have a problem. Or are you really doing that?

    Start with socializing with men. They tend to be more straightforward. And have purpose, mission and goals.

    If you don’t socialize, perhaps cut down on internet usage and read some non-fiction books as guidance. Go out there and befriend some solid guys. Get a mentor, or at least seek one out. And don’t have apprehensions about socialization. Because you are going to socialize in order to get from point A to point B. To accomplish not being so insular.

    Isolation is dangerous. Someone should make a Law about that…

    You have bad habits. You could start by reading about the Power of Habit by Robert Duhigg. Or Atomic Habits by James Clear. Hell, you can read the first review that comes up on that book by Haical Sajovic Haddad, who gives an overview about what the book talks about.

    Or go through a twelve step program. Listen on YouTube to a Russel Brand/Jordan Peterson interview about Brands 12 step book.

    Russell Brand is funny. He stopped his bad habits. Bad habits are a rut one gets into. And those ruts need work-arounds to get out of that rut. Workarounds are other ways of operating. Not doing what you would normally do, because of paralysis.

    This is funny, his re-working of 12 steps. It’s not just about addiction to substances. It’s about addiction to ways of being. It’s not that life sucks. It’s about your way of thinking about life and your mental schemas that are keeping you in a rut:

    Intimidated by the 12 Steps

    “The 12 Step program, which has saved my life, will change the life of anyone who embraces it. I have seen it work many times with people with addiction issues of every hue: drugs, sex, relationships, food, work, smoking, alcohol, technology, pornography, hoarding, gambling, everything. Because the instinct that drives the compulsion is universal…We are all on the addiction scale.”

    ~ Russell Brand

    When Brand entered the recovery program that changed his life, he was exposed to the original 12 Steps:

    We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.
    We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
    We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
    We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
    We admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
    We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
    We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
    We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
    We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
    We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
    We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
    Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
    But like many people who are the Steps for the first time, Brand did not quite connect with them, responding with, “maybe for you, but not for me.”

    He freely admits that his early rejection of Steps probably stemmed from his self-centeredness, a trait he shares with most addicts. That is a position he soon moved away from. Today, Brand says, “The reason I worked the 12 Steps was because I was desperate. The reason I continue to is because they have awakened me to the impossibility of happiness based on my previous world view: that I am the center of the world and that what I want is important.”

    The 12 Steps in Russell Brand’s Language
    “I believe that what the 12 Steps and their encompassing philosophy, which I will lay out for you in these pages, will provide is nothing less than a solution to the dissatisfaction of living, and dying, to anyone with the balls to do the work.”

    ~ Russell Brand

    In Recovery, Brand attempts to “demystify” the Steps, keeping the intent while changing the language to appeal to those who have problems with the original wording:

    Are you a bit fucked?
    Could you not be fucked?
    Are you, on your own, going to ‘unfuck’ yourself?
    Write down all the things that are fucking you up or have ever fucked you up and don’t lie or leave anything out.
    Honestly tell someone trustworthy about how fucked you are.
    Well that’s revealed a lot of fucked-up patterns. Do you want to stop it? Seriously?
    Are you willing to live in a new way that’s not all about you and your previous, fucked-up stuff? You have to.
    Prepare to apologize to everyone for everything affected by your being so fucked-up.
    Now apologize. Unless that would make things worse.
    Watch out for fucked-up thinking and behavior and be honest when it happens.
    Stay connected to your new perspective.
    Look at life less selfishly, be nice to everyone, help people if you can.

    You need to change your game.

    You must get some other guy friends. And have a buddy system.

    Also check out The Biology of Desire by Marc Lewis

    You need to change your brain. You can change your brain.

  42. @Sentient – hahaha, yes you’re right. Of course I know, it’s more just…noting it I guess (she replied telling me she is probably terminally ill with cancer but is undergoing treatment and she’ll look me up if she survives and comes to my city).

    @Palma – that’s the big change in my attitude. I’ve done plenty of being focussed on the goal and I’ve banged lots of girls. I’m consciously trying to step back and just be social all the time. Which in this case, yes, means talking to a girl (and her bf) with no path to the finish line. It’s a feature, not a bug etc.

  43. I see what you guys are doing there.

    Chapter 37 from You Are Not So Smart by David McRaney:

    Learned Helplessness

    THE MISCONCEPTION: If you are in a bad situation, you will do whatever you can do to escape it.

    THE TRUTH: If you feel like you aren’t in control of your destiny, you will give up and accept whatever situation you are in.

    In 1965, a psychologist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs.

    He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov—the guy who could make dogs salivate when they heard a bell ring. Seligman wanted to head in the other direction, and when he rang his bell, instead of providing food, he zapped the dogs with electricity. To keep them still, he restrained them in a harness during the experiment. After they were conditioned, he put these dogs in a big box with a little fence dividing it into two halves. He figured if the bell rung, it would hop over the fence to escape, but it didn’t. It just sat there and braced itself. They decided to try shocking the dog after the bell. The dog still just sat there and took it. When they put a dog in the box that had never been shocked before or had previously been allowed to escape and tried to zap it—it jumped the fence.

    You are just like these dogs.

    If, over the course of your life, you have experienced crushing defeat or pummeling abuse or loss of control, you convince yourself over time that there is no escape, and if escape is offered, you will not act—you become a nihilist who trusts futility above optimism.

    Studies of the clinically depressed show that they often give in to defeat and stop trying. The average person will look for external forces to blame when he or she fails the midterm. People will say the professor is an asshole, or they didn’t get enough sleep. But depressed people will often blame themselves and assume they are stupid. Seligman called this your explanatory style. You see events affecting your life along three gradients: personal, permanent, and pervasive. If you blame yourself or blame forces beyond your control, it hurts more. If you believe the situation will never change, sadness is stronger than if you believe tomorrow things will be better. If you think your problems affect every element of your existence instead of just a specific element of your life, once again, you feel far worse. Pessimism sits on one side of the gradient and optimism on the other. The more pessimistic your explanatory style, the easier it is to slip into learned helplessness.

    Do you vote?

    If not, is it because you think it doesn’t matter because things never change, or politicians are evil on both sides, or one vote in several million doesn’t count? Yeah, that’s learned helplessness.

    When battered women, or hostages, or abused children, or longtime prisoners refuse to escape, they don’t because they have accepted the futility of trying. What does it matter? Those who do get out of bad situations often have a hard time committing to anything that may lead to failure. Any extended period of negative emotions can lead to you giving in to despair and accepting your fate. If you remain alone for a long time, you will decide loneliness is a fact of life and pass up opportunities to hang out with people. The loss of control in any situation can lead to this state.

    In another study by Seligman, he grafted cancer cells into rats so they would develop fatal tumors. The rats were then given routine electric shocks, but some had an opportunity to escape by pressing a lever. Another group received no shocks at all. One month later, 63 percent of the rats who could escape rejected their tumors. By comparison, 54 percent of the group who were not shocked rejected theirs. The survival rate of the group forced to bear the shocks was only 23 percent. Rats suffering from cancer will die faster if placed in an inescapable situation.

    A study in 1976 by Ellen Langer and Judith Rodin showed in nursing homes where conformity and passivity are encouraged and every whim is attended to, the health and well-being of the patients declines rapidly. If, instead, the people in these homes are given responsibilities and choices, they remain healthy and active. This research was repeated in prisons. Sure enough, just letting prisoners move furniture and control the television kept them from developing health problems and staging revolts. In homeless shelters where people can’t pick out their own beds or choose what to eat, the residents are less likely to try and get a job or find an apartment. When you are able to succeed at easy tasks, hard tasks feel possible to accomplish. When you are unable to succeed at small tasks, everything seems harder.

    Psychologist Charisse Nixon at Penn State Erie shows her students how learned helplessness works by having them complete word unscrambling tests. She asks her students to rearrange the letters in words so they create new words. She asks her class to do this one word at a time: “whirl,” “slapstick,” “cinerama.” Try it yourself, but don’t move to the next word until you finish the first. If you were in Nixon’s classroom, as you were working on the first word she would ask for everyone who was already finished to raise their hands, and then you would look up and see half the class was ready to move on. Nixon then tells everyone to go to the next word, and once again everyone but you and a few others raises a hand. Again, she repeats this for the third word, and again half the class gets it quickly while the rest sits dumbfounded. The trick in her informal study is that half the class gets the words above, and the other half gets: “bat,” “lemon,” “cinerama.” “Bat” is easily turned into “tab,” and “lemon” becomes “melon” just as easily. So when the half with the easy words gets to “cinerama,” they find it simple to unscramble it into American. If you acted like most people, you would feel weird and inadequate as the hands went in the air while you looked at “whirl” and turned it over in your head searching for another word to make from the letters. “If this is so easy, what is wrong with me?” Then comes “slapstick,” and now you feel even dumber, as half your peers seem to have no problem figuring it out. Now, with learned helplessness in full effect, you see “cinerama” differently from the now confident others with the easy word tasks. Even though it shouldn’t be too tough, learned helplessness tells you to give up. In Nixon’s classes, this is what usually happens. The half with the impossible words gives in by the third word.

    The leading theory as to how such a strange behavior would evolve is that it springs from all organisms’ desire to conserve resources. If you can’t escape a source of stress, it leads to more stress, and this positive feedback loop eventually triggers an automatic shutdown. At its most extreme, you think if you keep struggling you might die. If you stop, there is a chance the bad thing will go away.

    Every day you feel like you can’t control the forces affecting your fate—your job, the government, your addiction, your depression, your money. So you stage micro-revolts. You customize your ring tone, you paint your room, you collect stamps. You choose.

    Choices, even small ones, can hold back the crushing weight of helplessness, but you can’t stop there. You must fight back your behavior and learn to fail with pride. Failing often is the only way to ever get the things you want out of life. Besides death, your destiny is not inescapable.

    You are not so smart, but you are smarter than dogs and rats. Don’t give in yet.

  44. My cut and paste on learned helplessness was meant to go in the regular thread The Truth About Standards in regards to commenter Aeon and Aqualinespirit regarding large hurdles in front of them. That’s what the “I see what you are doing there” meant. And what the mind steps on it’s own foot in doing normal human thinking.

    It is not meant to be pejorative. It is meant to avoid groupthink and go forward in a masculine way to be successful at what you want to do.

    That book by McRaney is really good. It’s short and breezy, unlike Robert Greene’s the Law’s of Human Nature with dealt with similar ways mindsets get set.

  45. A hypothetical question about the phenomenon of monkey branching: what if a woman was monkey branching to you? Is it a red flag?

  46. @Escarole – I wouldn’t think monkey branching in itself is a red flag – it’s part of female psychology. But would depend on the precise circumstances and sometimes could be a red flag.

    @Palma – indeed the hold-drink thing is a very useful compliance tool from your end as well. If YOU give your drink to a girl and tell her to hold it till you get back (and she does), you’ve essentially locked in with her and prevented (or at least made it much more difficult) for her to forget you and go off with another guy. Classic Mystery Method tactic.

    One of my best nights out, I ended up triggering massive attraction in a girl by telling her to hold my drink with no explanation given and a while later she was basically chasing me around the dance floor to sleep with me. I didn’t bang her because it was a work networking event which evolved into a party and I wanted to keep my reputation clean but was a good night – the FR is here somewhere from a couple years ago. You could SEE the attraction spike with the drink holding when she held my drink. At one point she literally got her friend off the dance floor to talk to me for two minutes and the friend literally pointed at me and gave her a thumbs up before going back to the dance floor. At another point she was literally telling me how she was with me because she enjoyed being with me even though there were a bunch of other guys there who could do more for her career but they were really boring.

  47. Palma

    “having made her work for it…”

    Yeah it’s in the book. These things are all about compliance and dominance/frame tests.

    Mystery says she gives you a compliance hoop to jump through, take her hoop, reframe and male her jump through yours first.

    So here she asks you to hold her drink, so in your social setting you don’t want to say No! So take her hoop (her request) and make her jump through yours.

    Her: Hold my drink.
    You: I only hold drinks for girls that dance. Do a little dance for me.
    Her: (dances)
    You: (taking drink) hmmmm free drinks (double points for taking a sip). Hurry back love before I finish it.


    I’m sure as you deconstruct MM and your successful SNLs you will see they have in common not so much the girl being “on cam” and tittering to your verbal onslaught as a series of more progressive compliance tests she passes along the way meet to Kino to make out to bounce to bang.

    As a natural, non game aware guy you are just not picking up on all her compliance. Compliance is the diagnostic for gauging attraction.

  48. Palma

    “Mystery says she gives you a compliance hoop to jump through, take her hoop, reframe and male her jump through yours first.”

    I should add – this is one way to handle. You can reject of course. And so can she. Again it’s a diagnostic, she defies you know you need to build more attraction.

    Go back to the ioi- iod loop… Which is in MM!

  49. @SJF
    Thanks for sharing these. It was an interesting read, but i don’t think there is a point in reading the books, i have read so much over the years – Rational male, Dave Diangelo alphamale, Carlos Xuma’s How to become alpha male, No More Mr Nice Guy, lots of articles on GirlsChase,etc.
    I have read a lot of theory basically but so difficult to put into practice.

    I understand everything is more or less a skill and can be learned with practice. But when i learn engineering or lifting,mma, i only get frustrated or pissed off when i fail and then i can continue trying. But with socialising/women its more than that, when i fail i get fuckin depressed and i hate it, and i don’t want to try again. I am ok with physical pain, but emotional/social is so different. How do you deal with that, any advice?
    I didn’t go to a few weddings of some good friends of mine because i didn’t want to be the socially akward guy in there, sitting alone in the corner and I hate when that happens, so I avoid situations like these, but how do I fix that?


  50. but how do I fix that?

    By making a wish on a falling star!

    errr… No. Not that. By fucking Doing the Work(TM) and getting after it. Until then, no coffee for you.

  51. “But with socialising/women its more than that, when i fail i get fuckin depressed and i hate it, and i don’t want to try again. I am ok with physical pain, but emotional/social is so different. How do you deal with that, any advice?
    I didn’t go to a few weddings of some good friends of mine because i didn’t want to be the socially akward guy in there, sitting alone in the corner and I hate when that happens, so I avoid situations like these, but how do I fix that?”

    I don’t really know. I’ve never known any socially inept people up close and personal.

    One thing you have to do is have in real life guy friends. And guys that you can trust to give you honest criticism. And point out your buffers.

    You need to unlearn your current paradigm and learn from someone outside yourself.

    You are still dealing with learned helplessness at the end of the day. So you have to break out of that stasis/death spiral. You have Hang-Ups.

    It’s fairly observable that people that are depressed and unmotivated can’t just talk themselves into being motivated or just reach a goal. They do need outside inspiration. So look outside yourself for other guys to help you.
    (That’s what dialogue on the manosphere is there for. That’s what Field Reports are there for.)

    You need a combination of commonsense, shrewdness and a sense of initiative.

    Also see Gumption Traps:

    Gumption trap
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A gumption trap is an event or mindset that can cause a person to lose enthusiasm and become discouraged from starting or continuing a project. The word “gumption” denotes a combination of commonsense, shrewdness, and a sense of initiative.[1] Although the last of these traits is the primary victim of the “gumption trap,” the first two suffer indirectly in that a reduction in initiative results in a reduction in constructive activity and therefore inhibits one’s development of the first two traits. The “trap” portion of the term refers to the positive feedback loop that the event or mindset creates: That the reduction in the person’s enthusiasm and initiative decreases both the person’s likelihood of success in that project and the degree of success likely (thus doubly affecting the expected outcome of the person’s efforts). The usual result, whether a mere lack of success or instead an outright failure complete with embarrassment and loss of the resources initially invested, further discourages the person.

    The specific term “gumption trap” was coined by Robert M. Pirsig in his 1974 novel Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and the associated concept plays an important part in the practical application of his Metaphysics of Quality. Although Pirsig’s term has seen little use outside his work, the associated concept has received significant attention in mainstream psychology under the label “learned helplessness” proposed by psychologist Martin Seligman.


    Pirsig refers to two types of gumption traps: setbacks, which arise from external/”exogenous” events, and hang-ups, which are the product of internal/”endogenous” factors such as a poor fit between one’s psychological state and the requirements of a project.[2]


    The nature of setbacks can vary considerably. For example, a minor setback might result from a minor injury. Larger setbacks include the lack of knowledge that a certain procedural step or other condition is necessary for a project’s success: If one attempts to keep working despite the lack of knowledge that this obstacle exists (let alone how to deal with it), one’s lack of progress may prompt one to take long breaks from the project, to focus one’s attention on other endeavors, or even to lose interest in the project altogether. Pirsig suggests preventing these kinds of gumption traps by being slow and meticulous, taking notes that might help later, and troubleshooting in advance (e.g., by laying out the requirements for one’s project in logical and/or conceptual order and looking for procedural problems ranging from unaccounted-for prerequisites to gaps in one’s instructions or plans).


    Hang-ups stem from internal factors that can get in the way of starting or completing a project. Examples of such hang-ups include anxiety, boredom, impatience, and the failure (often borne of excessive egotism) to realize that a) one might not have all the information necessary to succeed and/or b) certain aspects of the problem might be more or less important than one believes. Dealing with hang-ups can be as simple as reducing hyperfocus on a specific aspect of a problem by taking a short break from working on the problem or that specific aspect of it.

  52. aqualinespirit

    It may just be my solipsism, but I totally disagree with your assertion that reading stuff is of no value.

    It is of no value in you becoming better at socializing because you aren’t putting any of what you read into action. You are just resting on it.

    Why is it that you think that knowing and learning and reading stuff isn’t of any value. Give a rundown of that. Why?

    Not attending a wedding or two because you think it won’t provide value is clinically retarded thinking. With a loving care placed on the term clinically retarded. It simply isn’t true that you can’t go and experience things there unless you aren’t willing to let go and enjoy the dance of experience and unless you can’t enjoy anything. But don’t be so anodyne. It’s not a way to live life.

    If you are going to learn and read and experience stuff, please let the stuff you delve into resonate with you. If not move on to another piece of stuff. Same with guy friends. Same with girls. Move toward something that resonates with you.

    And keep in mind that you have to go through a Hero’s Journey to come out of your stasis. Your funk. Your lack of drive. Your lack of energy. And a Heroes Journey is hard and disconcerting and tough and scary. But it’s a good thing to do.

    Consider this 25:00 minute YouTube (listen to it while you are at the gym for 40 minutes):

    It was vetted and recommended by a dopamine junkie Nick Krauser in his latest blog series.

    And this is recursive to something about habits and/or addictions: The book by Marc Lewis called The Biology of Desire: Addiction is not a Disease that explains why human behavior follows the path of least resistance. And gets into ruts easily and often. To get out of a rut, you have to develop other pathways, workarounds to your normal patterns. Do not stick with your ruts. Your brain can be re-programmed by you to work differently, if you are self aware and can push the right buttons. It works well. It’s called: your brain is neuroplastic if you know how to mold it.

    Look into it. And don’t be averse to new reading. And don’t be afraid to get books from the library if you aren’t so sure you want to invest in buying it. Don’t be so sure you can’t change you.

  53. Aquilinespirit

    Step 4. In the Hero’s Journye is: Meeting the Mentor

    In which the Hero acquires a personal trainer.

    The Hero’s decided to go on the adventure — but they’re not ready to spread their wings yet. They’re much too inexperienced at this point and we don’t want them to do a fabulous belly-flop off the cliff.

    Enter the mentor: someone who helps the Hero, so that they doesn’t make a total fool of themselves (or get themselves killed). The mentor provides practical training, profound wisdom, a kick up the posterior, or something abstract like grit and self-confidence.

    Wise old wizards seem to like being mentors. But mentors take many forms, from witches to hermits and suburban karate instructors. They might literally give weapons to prepare for the trials ahead, like Q in the James Bond series. Or perhaps the mentor is an object, such as a map. In all cases, they prepare the Hero for the next step.

    Example of Meeting the Mentor:
    In steps former boxer Mickey “Mighty Mick” Goldmill, who sees potential in Rocky and starts training him physically and mentally for the fight.

    Back 3 years ago I made a comment on how to get a mentor. I’ll post it in the comments section for the fifth time in the last three years, sorry to bore those that have seen it before. Because you need to hear this AquaLine. You need outside guidance. Go out and get some.:

    I just reflected on something I did in the past five years and wanted to share it in a comment. YaReally and Scribbler talked about mentoring young women game. There is another side of mentorship that is very important to young men and that is for a man to get a male mentor to become more masterful at something. To get more masterful at game to meet and attract women. To be more masterful at LTR’s from a male mentor.

    I had a great experience in me obtaining two mentors back then, 4-5 years ago. One was in deer hunting habitat and expert chainsaw work, felling and cutting trees, including a unique way to “hinge cut” medium and small sized trees to tip them over and have them stay alive to provide cover and habit for deer at their level on the ground. The other mentor was in farming, agriculture, life balance between city and country, and also older man red-pill awareness and game.

    The reason for some of you guys to go out and get a mentor is because it is fun. It is exciting and brings a feeling of enthusiasm for game. Look at ScribblerG’s last post. Don’t you think he sounds excited to get out and game with PUA after being mentored by YaReally. Why do you think I post so much shit here? Because I like hectoring guys like Andy? No, it is because I think it is fun and I’m an enthusiast of red pill awareness and game–because of Rollo Tomassi’s mentoring. I love it.

    I suppose some of this pick a mentor idea also ties in with Rollo’s essay “The Art of AMOG”.

    The following is adapted from Julian Blanc’s Shift product on getting a mentor. What he advises is what I did 4-5 years ago with these two mentors I acquired by my natural social ability back then (I’m not as ill adapted at socializing as I seem. I actually get out from behind the keyboard and run a business, have a billion outdoor pursuits and indoor hobbies–like manage a farm for wildlife habitat and communing with mother nature, as well as ply a lot of hobbies).

    I met and didn’t hero worship these guys who were apex men at what they do. I didn’t project I was a fan. They don’t want to be personal friends with a fan. No apex guy does. They were the “same” as me. I didn’t pedestalize them.

    In order for me to learn from these guys I had to see their successes and their failures and I couldn’t do that if I sucked up to them as a “fan” of theirs. I was normal around these guys and that gave me more value and I stood out. Since I was normal around these guys, they felt like they could have a normal conversation with them and that made them feel nice.

    Asking for someone to be a mentor never works. You are asking what you can take from them. You can’t do that.

    (See the picking up women PUA game parallels, anyone?)

    I offered value because everything is an exchange. For one of these guys I asked myself what can give him, what does he want? For one of these guys I knew it was time and physical work. I walked up to him at a presentation he was giving at a deer hunting co-operative meeting and offered him that I would drive an hour and a half to his hunting property and fell huge trees on his hunting property in a project he was doing to clear the over-story mature canopy of trees to enhance the woods below. I told him that I ask for nothing in return. I just wanted to help him because I knew he needed the manpower for that project. Turned out to be the most valuable education ever for my pursuit of safety and efficiency and mastery over using a chainsaw, and after that my skill really escalated up the learning curve.

    For another guy I offered companionship and a nascent red pill awareness to hanging out, exercising, hitting the cigar lounge in the dog days of winter and also deer hunting, farming and masculine guy networking. Turns out he was an INTJ personality, and if there is anything an INTJ revels in is hanging out and talking to another INTJ type with the same passions and pursuits (here being the pursuit of deer habitat, hunting and red pill game of which he was an enthusiast of also).

    They didn’t need more of what they had knowledge and mastery of what they were already good at. I gave them other things than I came to them for as a mentor. I offered value in other areas. A win-win situation. (ScribblerG doesn’t need to be told more about socio-politics or parental alienation. YaReally doesn’t need to be told more about PUA game. Rollo doesn’t need to be told about red pill awareness, or evo-psych or behavioral psychology or branding or ad campaigns.)

    I made it easy on them when hanging out. I didn’t tell them my life story. They don’t have the time. I made it straight to the point, always, so they could deal with it fast. I asked easy questions at first. I didn’t just ask any question, I asked precise questions, which wouldn’t wear them down. Doing this helped them invest in me. Since I asked easy questions, they would think these will be easy to answer and they won’t require a high level of energy investment. Therefore the were more likely to help me in the long run. I didn’t just ask any fucking question. The main thing about having them as a mentor was just being around them. Questions are secondary. I made it a point to observe and stay around them. I did have the social intelligence and added value to make these mentors my friends. I didn’t ask too many questions at the wrong time and I was at the time a person they would want to hang out with.

    Furthermore, I never complained, never was negative and never sucked energy. I was fun, vibrant and positive. I smiled and laughed a lot.
    Whatever it took to get in close, I did it. No matter what it was. (I even went to one deer hunting celebratory get together with both mentors last Feb 7. On the way there I got word that my father passed away and that my mom was in a good place and didn’t need me that day. I proceeded to the party and it was one of the greatest get togethers I pretty much every had– and there was zero downside and infinite upside to proceding to the party–a true Stoic win).

    I was willing to pay the price. I would drive hours, do free labor, do bullshit tasks on their farms. No matter what the fuck it was. Being around for some time was priceless to them.

    So in trying to get a mentor you should, as Julien says: “Get on their radar. Don’t be leachy. Offering values, don’t ask specific questions related to the area of mentorship. Think of what the mentor would need from you. You must have resources. You should help him out. You should have time.
    Focus on providing value. Why should they take you? ”

    Go out and get a mentor. It ends up being fun. And you might just acquire a bit more mastery.

    And don’t hesitate to use these tactics on AMOG’s in real life or some of the commenters on The Rational Male in your virtual space.

  54. “If it’s worth it to anyone speak up and I’ll do it.”

    Yes, I would be interested. I’ve got a first date from online Thursday night meeting at local bar.

  55. @Palma

    I’m absolutely convinced that younger are easier than “age appropriate” by an enormous margin and I know for a fact that it’s just my mental logic gates that have been lousing this up.

    NO. Younger girls ie: 20-29 year old ATTRACTIVE HB7 and up need much tighter game because 1. they get so much douchebag attention from EVERYONE 2. Most guys their age are soy boys.

    I’m now plating 2 girls in their 20’s (the third one dropped out). The 24 year old wants the fantasy she sees in those action films of a guy who knows how to handle himself in ANY situation: ie: 1. leader of men 2. protector of women and children 3. pre-selected by other women

    Any hint of neediness is instant death to any further interaction.

    For 30++ girls your game doesn’t need to be as tight, you just need to display some sort of stability: job, hobbies etc and they’ll bang you on the first date. They have fewer options.

    I have friends who bragged about the number of women they were with. When I took a closer look at the quality it was usually 40+ MILFs. For those “Hello” is an opening line.

  56. Palma/Wala

    “I’m absolutely convinced that younger are easier than “age appropriate” by an enormous margin and I know for a fact that it’s just my mental logic gates that have been lousing this up.

    NO. Younger girls ie: 20-29 year old ATTRACTIVE HB7 and up need much tighter game because 1. they get so much douchebag attention from EVERYONE 2. Most guys their age are soy boys.”

    Well let’s be more specific gents. You talking about SNL from cold approach? Generally need tight game all around and logistics. Generally [pay attention to that qualifier spergs] younger girls are easier to spike and lead ONCE you hook but harder to hook, older women are easier to hook but more challenging to spike and lead, more mental baggage, more cautious, epiphany chicks, born again virgins, egg timer girls, etc. Generally 8+ are harder because of microcalibration.

    This has all been posted here before, FWIW… Blackdragon* had terrible success with fast, cheap lays on 33+ women…

    The problem

    For a long time, I’ve discussed the downside of dating women over the age of 33 if your goal is to get to sex as quickly as possible. I’ve expounded on this idea in detail in many other articles on this blog and in my books, but I will briefly summarize the problem before I get into the meat of this article.

    The problem is that, generally speaking (and there are always odd exceptions), women aged 33 or over are not going to have sex with you within 3-4 hours of face time like I teach, even if you do everything right.

    This is not my opinion, this is fact. I’ve had literally hundreds of men verify this throughout the years, including daygame guys. These are men who can easily have sex with new women very quickly as long as they’re under the age of 33. As soon as they creep up over 33, the time it takes to get to first-time sex expands, as well as the average total cost of getting from first-time meet to sex.

    The solution

    1. Realize and accept in advance that it’s going to take longer, and adjust your actions and expectations accordingly.

    2. Dial down the pickup artist techniques.

    3. Dial down the provider vibe to its lowest possible levels.

    4. Have sex talk as usual, but don’t push it if you get any resistance.

    5. Pre-sex, text her a little more often, but not every day.

    *Yes it’s become fashionable to now discredit BD in the PUAsphere. Whatevs, note these guys weren’t doing it for years and years, but lauding him. I make no judgment.

    This issue prompted a really good thread on Sedfast, with The Thin Man standing out in particular, for older, moneyed guys… worth the read.

    In an effort to get everything into a very specific bullet-point system, my interpretations of Thin Man’s system (the “Mechanistic” version) is the following:

    1. Pre-plan logisitcs for insta-date.
    2. Meet women in non-sexual business environments, such as networking breakfasts, seminars, community board meetings, etc.
    2. Pitch a bounce to breakfast (or lunch?) and expect a lot of shit testing when you do.
    3. Have breakfast (or lunch?) and run outcome independent game as usual. Put up with shit testing in non-reactive way. Do not bring up a day2. No kino or sexual stuff.
    4. Later, pitch day2 dinner date over telephone call or worst case, email. Call in early afternoon and pitch dinner for that night.
    5. Have dinner date 10 minutes from your home and pre-plan logistics to get her home after dinner.
    6. Pay for dinner. Light kino, sex talk, relationship talk. Have a long dinner, like 2-3 hours.
    7. Bounce her to your place and have sex.

    Khali’s system:

    1. 2 hour first meet. No kino, no sexual stuff. Never meet at her home.
    2. Pitch meet at your place for a drink or home cooked meal. Hard next if she balks.
    3. At your place, talk for another 2-3 hours. Then sexually escalate very hard. You might get laid, you might not.
    4. If not, do another meet, again at your place, and repeat step 3 above. If she still doesn’t have sex, hard next.

  57. Morpheus

    I’ve got a first date from online Thursday night meeting at local bar.

    The meet should be at a place you choose, not her. A place you know and have social proof in (i.e. you will be greeted by managers, hostesses, bartender, waitresses etc.). A place near your sex location. First drink at the bar, easier to kino, first bounce to a table or couch area, sit side by side if possible. If you have to move to a table put her facing you, not her back to the wall and you facing her. You are the focus not her. From here you can bounce to either another bar nearby or a small bite or to your place because you have some better wine/drink there and its close by.

    Culum had a pretty good first date from online routine worked out…

  58. 1. Pre-plan logisitcs for insta-date.
    2. Meet women in non-sexual business environments, such as networking breakfasts, seminars, community board meetings, etc.
    2. Pitch a bounce to breakfast (or lunch?) and expect a lot of shit testing when you do.
    3. Have breakfast (or lunch?) and run outcome independent game as usual
    . Put up with shit testing in non-reactive way. Do not bring up a day2. No kino or sexual stuff.
    4. Later, pitch day2 dinner date over telephone call or worst case, email
    . Call in early afternoon and pitch dinner for that night.
    5. Have dinner date 10 minutes from your home and pre-plan logistics to get her home after dinner.
    6. Pay for dinner. Light kino, sex talk, relationship talk. Have a long dinner, like 2-3 hours.
    7. Bounce her to your place and have sex.

  59. What does that gotta do with telling guys in 2019, if they wanna bang 33+ year old women as fast as possible (cause it’s like really really super hard to SNL 33+ year old women. It’s got nothing to do with having weak game. Nope. No siree), they should invite them have breakfast with them. But DO NOT bring up sexual stuff. Then later on, touch base by emailing them to have a long ass 3 hour dinner (which you will be paying for) with you (don’t calibrate if she’s sending signals she wants to be pulled way earlier than that. Nope it’s gotta be 2 hours minimum) before taking them home?

  60. I see, you didn’t read anything but the summary post… and not well at that. Otherwise you’d get that this is just an example of “a” System [i.e. not “the” system] which was developed based on Generalities and specific Operating Conditions.

    It’s got nothing to do with having weak game. Nope. No siree

    Hmmm… second and third sentence… “You talking about SNL from cold approach? Generally need tight game all around and logistics.”

  61. Palma

    “I suppose I might change my mind if I ever get any game, become a leader of men, or cure cancer, pilot the first Mars landing etc..”

    What and give up life-guarding at the car wash?

  62. @Sentient

    “I see, you didn’t read anything but the summary post”

    Blackdragon: “The summary is that he meets women at business breakfasts or events, has breakfast with them, then buys them dinner as a day2, then escalates to sex after dinner”

    “Otherwise you’d get that this is just an example of “a” System [i.e. not “the” system]” which was developed based on Generalities”

    No. It IS thin man’s system. Like that’s not a general example blackdragon provided lol. He’s literally telling you where to go to meet 33+ yo women (networking seminar), what to do (insta date to breakfast/lunch then ask for number) and what not to do (no kino or sexual stuff). Then schedule a day2 dinner near your place. Pay for dinner and spend 3 hours with her (the 3-4 hours thing seems to be important because of blackdragon’s faulty assumption (“women aged 33 or over are not going to have sex with you within 3-4 hours of face time” – because of like I said, “weak game”). Rather than understand what her objections are (mental baggage about “I’m not that kind of girl anymore (young girls it’s just “I’m not that kinda girl”). solve them via rapport/reframes at your first meet. And set SNL frames, and presto. Instead of sitting at your dinner table Looking at your watch going, “damn it I’ve still got an hour and 27 minutes left before she’s willing to spread her legs for me! Can’t this thing move a little faster??”

    This “system” is no different than your basic day2 model you would follow with any girl whose logistics aren’t favorable. In The Thin Man’s system the girl might be busy with other shit she’s got going on that day. So he’ll just schedule to see her the next night or two. Just like you would with a young chick. If she didn’t have anything on her schedule (and yes I am aware that even if they do have things on their schedule they will break them for alphas), then you can just take her to a bar near your place and continue rather than settling for the number to schedule a day2 meet because 33+ year old girls are hard to SNL.

    And the “Don’t talk about sexual shit” is again based on the assumption is that you NEED a second meet to close older girls. So better to talk about sex THERE rather than NOW. When if she has shown her self to be available logistically right now. Then there is no purpose of saving the sexual talk for the second meet. Because you can close right now. Again being that you identify and solve her objections, and set SNL frames.

  63. @Sentient/@j/@Palma et al

    On the “Over 33” thing.

    I like Blackdragon for the most part and don’t understand the crap he gets in the sphere these days. I don’t agree with him on lots of things but the dude turned his life around and he’s practiced everything he preaches. I even used his online dating system in my early days (then I ditched a lot of it as it was too cumbersome for me but it was a good early framework).

    I have long thought that BD is overstating the difficulty of sleeping with “over 33s”. It’s not some impossible mountain to conquer.

    He does a good job of setting out the problem (and it is a real problem) but his solution is basically “live with it”.

    I think it’s possible to consistently sleep with over 30s women in an SNL. 75-80% of my lays from online were over 30.

    @j is correct, but he doesn’t understand why – saying “good game” is too broad.

    The key variable (which @j inherently possesses because of his age) which Blackdragon doesn’t appreciate is that you have to completely and totally eliminate any trace of provider potential or relationship potential. COMPLETELY eliminate it.

    @j is 25ish so of course he’s automatically disqualified as relationship material for a 35 year old so he never runs into this problem and is like “what are you guys talking about? This isn’t difficult”.

    If you’re in the woman’s target age range and you’re actually single and have a job and are not a complete loser you have to work quite hard at doing this (Palma is also running into this problem).

    The ways in which I mitigated it (it doesn’t always work – sometimes – especially with women who are right on the late 30s borderline between being able to have kids and not have kids- it can be very hard – you can actually SEE their desire warring with their logical mind – I have a great FR on this from the YaReally days on Heartiste if anyone is interested) with pretty consistent success is by ruling myself out as a relationship prospect in the following ways:

    -traveling – if I’m only in her city briefly, automatically disqualified
    -explicitly making it clear (during the meetup) that I’m not into relationships, and am just looking casual – the important thing here is not the words – you have to have the right attitude and vibe to be congruent with the message
    -I screen hard – I get flirty and sexual (not explicit) early in messaging before a meetup and demand quite high compliance (she comes to my hotel bar for a drink only) etc – anyone who isn’t into that is hard nexted.

    There’s more but that’s the basic idea – if you completely disqualify as relationship material and increase the flirtiness/sexuality and she still complies, it’s perfectly possible. You’ll lose a few women who are dead set on the relationship but far fewer than Blackdragon seems to suggest.

    I even experimented with pretending to be married for a while with no real impact on success (I lost some women and no doubt many of the women who didn’t match or didn’t message back were turned off by the marriage, but once you meet them it doesn’t really matter for all the reasons TRM talks about).

    Palma – you could literally pretend to be married if you want to sleep with “age appropriate” women (lol).

  64. @Palma

    Yes, BD is pretty perceptive on some stuff – I just feel that I’ve kind of gone beyond what he teaches in the last few years. I think I read every post on his blog up to about 2017 or so before stopping.

    I agree with your analysis about superyacht-girl and similar women completely. But that whole algorithm pertains to the beta bucks side. My point – the point of my approach – is to completely rule yourself out of contention on that side – either because you’re poor/young (like @j) or married (making it clear you’re not planning to leave your wife – Sentient approach) or traveler from far away (my approach) or whatever.

    All that remains is the AF side which is a lot simpler (not easier, but simpler) – once you’ve concinvced her hindbrain that there will be no BB from you, then she is judging you purely on AF qualities and it’s just a question of whether you measure up on those or not.

    On a different note – what’s going on over there with all this Brexit stuff? You’re pro-Brexit right? All I see are these New York Times articles about how the Parliament is stopping the Prime Minister from taking the country out of the EU on catastrophic terms that will cause chaos etc. What’s your take?

  65. Thanks Palma. Sounds like very similar dynamics to Trump – interesting how similar the two countries are.

    I struggle with expressing my political opinions in my social circles (all very coastal liberal UMC types) – although I have other social circles as well which are different.

    I’d literally be excommunicated if I admitted voting for Trump or thinking there was a witch hunt against Kavanaugh or whatever. Even the very mild comments I sometimes make (about how shitty the Dem presidential field is and how Gabbard is the only one who actually seems to have any kind of grasp on what the “deplorables” actually want and how to get them to vote for her instead of Trump) get significant pushback and it’s pretty obvious that people have noticed that I’m departing from the narrative and a Note has been made against me..

  66. Culum

    “I have long thought that BD is overstating the difficulty of sleeping with “over 33s”. It’s not some impossible mountain to conquer.”

    OK let’s be clear here, and this will likely be my last word on BD. BD makes no such claim. At all.

    What he says is he and many others find is it takes longer to get to sex with over 33 than under 33 under THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS/CONSTRAINTS:

    Sex within four hours of meet
    Guys over 35
    Not Night game/No clubs/bars/alcohol infused
    Activities ending by 11PM
    Spend less than $30 total
    She’s not social circle/on vacation/

    So those are the parameters. He says you can sleep with hundreds of 33 plus if you are willing to go outside those elements.

    So that’s what BD says. What he doesn’t say is if your game is tight you can avoid a lot of the traps he ends up in. I suspect for two reasons, 1) his game isn’t so good and 2) he does not want to invest the time and effort to develop that kind of tight game. He has his online – meet up – sex under four hours – spend less than $30 thing going with under 30 girls and doesn’t see a cost benefit to trying to change the model/his behaviors to solve the beta bux hunting/ASD/epiphany girl challenges of the over 30s…

  67. A big part of BDs problem is the “structure” of online… Generally speaking, Young girls are online to meet for “whatever” but older ones are online for “something more”. So they try and play their sex card carefully to get the best shot at “something more”. Back to the “make rules for betas/break rules for alphas” thing.

    By sticking to live action cold approach you change the fundamental structural dynamic, to your advantage.

  68. @Sentient – yes. I think he’s wrong even when all those criteria are met – I think you’ve explained the reason for that yourself. in relation to the level of his game and what he’s happy with.

    But I’ve had literally a couple of dozen or more consistent lays in sub-2 hr time frames with over-30 women from online, which meet every single one of those criteria (in many of them I was travelling, but not the woman so it still meets it). So it is certainly possible to do it.

    Like I said in my previous post, the core issue he misses is that you have to ruthlessly disqualify yourself from ANY BB/provider potential and then spike her and sexualize hard anf ast.

    1. “Like I said in my previous post, the core issue he misses is that you have to ruthlessly disqualify yourself from ANY BB/provider potential and then spike her and sexualize hard anf ast.”

      Culum, can you expand on this? I’ve got this date tonight with this 48 year old who actually looks younger in her pics… We’ll see… But I want to avoid exactly this issue which I think was the problem with the last girl.

  69. I find older women (30+) much much easier to hook and bang than the 16-23 type girl, personally.
    I feel like they are much less superficial and respond better to ‘game’ (teasing etc) and as long as it’s obvious i’m not trying to be their boyfriend, it’s easy pickings. Unfortunately i’m rarely that attracted to women of that age.
    The young ones seem to be super hostile and guarded and if you don’t look like what they deem to be ‘hot’, you’re just wasting your time.

  70. “I find older women (30+) much much easier to hook and bang than the 16-23 type girl, personally.”

    WT actual F?

  71. What are you talking about? We don’t have any ‘gap gap’ laws here. I’m doing nothing illegal. This is like talking too the feminists at reddit lol.
    As long as it’s legal, don’t worry about it. Just live within the law

  72. UK doesn’t have age gap laws either. Consent age is 16

    Lowest i’ve gone in recent years is 17 which was still a MASSIVE age gap, but it is what it is. She was also the hottest girl i’ve ever banged so I don’t regret lol

  73. Too bad you don’t live here.

    I’d love to catch you hanging around a high school or something trying to ” pick up ” a 16 tear old girl, with your sorry, weak ass.

    Child molesting piece of shit.

  74. “It’s only consent at 16 so similar age kids don’t get themselves in trouble for messin around, which is fine.

    You gotta fuck off and play with adult toys.”

    “Child molesting piece of shit”

    The white Knight is strong in these two…

  75. This ain’t about no dumb assed white knight shit.

    It’s about how some dipshit ” men ” have fallen so far in life that they have to target children, and then say stupid shit like ” age of consent “.

    You’d have to actually have kids or know some to get it evidently.

    White knight. GTFOH with that.

  76. Blaximus

    It’s part and parcel of the decline of men in general. I’m curious to see how many other comments will cosign pedophiles.

  77. GIF girl is very sexy tbh, but I don’t mind pretending she’s not to please r/niceguys. (Unless she’s actually 18 and legal in the US in which case, I admit I want her)

  78. @ALL

    Is this mode of thinking acceptable to the bulk of men here? Is this a part of the hotter younger tighter trinity?

    I understand the whole women are difficult thing and I read endless exaltation about only going for young girls/women. This is the danger in making that idea widespread , especially on the net. Some men are too emotionally immature and weak to parse what the meaning is and choose to look for a reason to go after children . Age of consent being one.

    It’s disappointing.

  79. @Morpheus – it’s basically what I said in my last few posts and Sentient and Palma commented on (in particular read the Sedfast thread that Sentient linked to which discusses the problem in more detail).

    Women have both AF and BB routines running all the time. But as Palma has explained with his examples, they prioritize BB more (consciously) starting in the epiphany phase around 30, but gets more extreme after 40-45 as they realize they have to find a man to support them for the rest of their lives.

    So unlike younger girls who will just go with the flow and sleep with you if it feels good (ie you spike their emotions and build enough attraction etc), older women will – even if they are attracted to you and want to sleep with you – resist that urge and wait – basically using sex as a bargaining chip to secure commitment.

    The better you are as a boyfriend or husband prospect, the stronger the resistance is (to sleep with you quickly). Of course if you’re willing to wait and do the dating thing then you will have no issue – you are the perfect profile to appeal to a 48 year old.

    If you want to sleep with her fast – as Blackdragon says in under 4 hours – then you have to rule yourself out as provider/BB/boyfriend material AND your AF game has to be good enough that she will still want to sleep with you out of sheer desire alone.

    This is not easy and it takes practice.

    As a starting point I suggest completely ruling yourself out as a relationship candidate with your next date. Stuff like “I’m too scarred from my divorce” (said with a smile}. Or “I’m cold and dead inside” (ditto) and make it clear you will never settle down. Simultaneously do attraction stuff to spike her emotions and see how it goes. cc

  80. HammerSmith, a ‘man’ can be purple pill in the respect that his red pill colors spin plates with an uninformed blue pill objective view of females. This ‘mysterious female’ porn focus on desire for innocence shows a complete lack of understanding and the end game is the man loses. Payback is truly a bitch and there is always the fucking you get for the fucking you got waiting around the bend.

    From Rollo’s , The Truth About Standards
    “We condition men to prioritize the Emotional process from a very early age. Again, all this makes actually vetting a woman for intimate acceptability almost offensive to the average (Beta) man today.

    And this discomfort with holding any standards for women to receive his intimate approval also serves women’s sexual strategy.”

    Serving her sexual strategy at 15 or 16 is, even the average limp wrist pedophile appears to be alpha in comparison to her peers.

  81. Palma


    I don’t know if you want the feedback on your radar but it’s spot on.

    Towel thing and food thing are escalating.

    Not long and I’ll be out of here.”</>

    Once you internalize RP and Game it’s hard to be wrong on this stuff. You can still fail to execute of course, but you usually know what’s going on… The flip side is you need to wade through idiots making false claims about looks or this or that technique or their hang ups… but we get there.

    But now for you – RUN FORREST RUN!!!

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