Field Reports

lion-chasing-gazelle

For the past three years of The Rational Male there’s been a consistent presence in the comment threads of guys seeking advice for particular situations with regards to Game. Whether it’s fine tuning certain aspects of Game or a larger consensus of the guys participating in my comment threads it’s become obvious there’s a need for a dedicated page and comment thread to address these Field Reports.

So I’m instituting this page for exactly this. If there is some urgency to have members of The Rational Male community analyze your particular situation feel free to hit anyone up in the comments of my current post, but please refer them to your particular field report with a link to your comment here. I’m hoping this will alleviate the mass of posts for field report analysis and Game specific insights piled into the main blog post for any given week.

There will be some rules for this “forum” as such. I ask that you only keep your comments to addressing the field reports at hand and save your larger theoretical stuff for the main posts, or if relevant, keep the “bigger scope of things” posts to being as succinct as possible. There will be no moderation in this comment thread (spamming excepted), so realize it will be a very hot kitchen before you post. I will impose no restrictions on video links here, nor will I limit links to various, but pertinent articles.

Understand, this is an experiment for now. It’s likely this comment thread will exceed thousands of comments. I’ll be instituting new comment plug-ins for wordpress to deal with this in the future, but I may archive this page the the posts and refresh this page in the future as well. If this gets cumbersome I may simply institute a dedicated forum-style sub-site of The Rational Male to accommodate for Game specific questions.

So have at it, post your field reports and feel free to comment on the ones you have some particular insight for. Be forewarned that it’s likely things may get a bit salty at times and I expect a lot of back & forth with debate and disagreements, but that’s what this thread is for – to hash out Game particulars for your given situations.

 

11,070 comments

  1. @IRL

    I seem to remember we discussed this at one point in quite some detail.

    Do you really mean you’ve been zeroed out totally or just that opportunity didn’t pan out?

    There must be other opportunities over there?

    In terms of finding an opportunity you need something scaleable, what are you trying to achieve? Do you want to earn a good living or do you want to be rich?

  2. Plus .. I’ve just caught up on this thread. You actually have to step out of your comfort zone and bloody well do something. Absolutely no on one a actually takes the first step. But in principle you need something with a large market (like half the population) where you can get other people doing the work and take a margin from that. Ideally you have a moat around your business to stop it getting raided by the fuckers and this is in the format of some type of IP or process someone else doesn’t have and can’t work out how to copy.

    You either have to find something totally new which kicks off which is difficult or copy what someone else does and di it better than them.

    We have a Belgian fries place here which is very good but losing money because the assholes think they’re special primadonnas and shut the place at 8pm.. I mean what sort of prick shuts the chippy before he pubs kick out? I had a freehold on a kebab shop a few years back and most of their profit came from drunks kicked out from the pub.

    So another Belgian frites place opened down the road and they have an inferior product but they’re killing it because they’re open till 11pm.. if you can get that sort of business going over a few locations you make serious coin plus you can sell it.

    Where I sold a business to a PLC a few years ago, it was because it had customers that were tied in. They wanted the customers and they had to buy the business to get them. Now you’re in shark territory, I’ll provately send you the communication between me and the CEO where they tried to raid me.

    With stuff like patents you can make out like a bandit but they are expensive and take a long time to bring to market. I have a patent applied for that I took to Amazon but I immediately had to defend because their terms state that the information contained in any unsolicited approach to them becomes their property. It’s not true, but the fuckers still needed to be put back in their box and that cost money. A simple patent will cost you at least £20k and another £20k to get in front of people.

    What ideas do you have ?

  3. While I’m on a roll, a business is something that happens without you being there. Other people do the work. If you have to do the work you’re self employed -it will be almost impossible to scale and very difficult to get rich.

  4. Thanks for the comments.

    @Sentient
    Not sure if I grasp what you mean by vehicle… I’m assuming it’s basically the service or product you want to offer? or are you talking about structure/organization?

    A mix of both. For various reasons, my next step is to work for someone (hence the organisation factor). I’ll stack up some cash, go through the motions of how this market works, hone my skills and build more connections. The service/product is a factor in the sense that it fits the niche (and so the market size) and requires me to put in work to understand it, but I don’t have one at the moment. And as much as the skills/services are transferable, the product/customer specific knowledge is not… until it is again = ACALT.

    What I don’t know is which of the employment opportunities I’ve created has the highest potential: future-proofing or learning factor (I guess no bad choice here, failing beats waiting every time) and what you referred to as deals and compensation scalability (I’m finally paying more attention to this, some choices are better than others).

    Hence my initial question: what and how to probe in the process. I’m acting as we speak, so no problem there. There’s something empowering when you need to start from scratch. But while I can put the pedal to the metal on instinct/intuition, I know some paths have a higher probability of success than others. MM vs Naturals.

    So thanks for your “new venture” checklist, good to have one.

    I need you to explain the “better to be a buyer than a seller” part though. You mean the mentality, position of power and choice?

    You say “do it for free”… What is your capital base like? How long can you go without a paycheck?

    6-12 months. Which I’d like to avoid. These two numbers are the checkpoints for me to decide whether to move my family again or not.

    I’ve just found myself in situations where I saw opportunities and then took the risk and acted.

    You may not realize that but my increased exposure to risk and the recent move have been triggered by more less the same thing you said in the past. My juices are flowing much faster and it feels really good. Instinct kicks in. A completely different reference experience. Thanks!

    @IAS
    I’m also interested in this discussion as I often think about early retirement.

    What I’ve found helpful is a small shift in balance: instead of thinking about securing or retiring, I keep focusing on amping up and maximizing. Like, why am I limiting myself to this?! (this is why I posted the initial comment, to get my mental limits poked by someone who can see them)

    @Palma
    Do you really mean you’ve been zeroed out totally or just that opportunity didn’t pan out?

    No, I haven’t been totally zeroed out. The opportunity didn’t pan out and my budget took a hit. I acted but didn’t screen enough. Checklists/process help…

    In terms of finding an opportunity you need something scaleable, what are you trying to achieve? Do you want to earn a good living or do you want to be rich?

    I want to be in a position to say Fuck You whenever I want. And I prefer a rewarding challenge over security.

    You actually have to step out of your comfort zone and bloody well do something. Absolutely no on one a actually takes the first step.

    Is happening as we speak. I’m burning through my to-do list faster than ever.

    What ideas do you have ?

    I’m more b2b and tech which means higher barriers to entry, smaller market, more regulations, but higher rewards. I had a more specific idea that didn’t pan out, so now back to the drawing board.

    While I’m on a roll, a business is something that happens without you being there. Other people do the work. If you have to do the work you’re self employed -it will be almost impossible to scale and very difficult to get rich.

    This. Thanks for the reminder. I’m flexing to get past this point.

  5. IRL

    If you need a paycheck and to learn the business from the inside before you can do it then consulting is the way to go.

    If you can get hired on with a firm that focuses on the b2b or tech fields you are interested in you can get paid to be trained and run scout missions. You have some flexibility on salary with your cash buffer to make up the difference. You can take a lower paying position that provides you the learning amd access opportunities you need.

    Be the guy who wants to do the field work, that will give you free run in the client companies to extract info. Since this is not a career for you but a waypoint you have a lot of flexibility.

    You always have the potential to go native and work for the company directly for a few years as well, or come across acquisition targets.

    Just watch you non compete/non solicitation agreements.

    The other option is to get hired by a company in the field tou want to enter and take a position as some kind of assistant. So you are close to someone who is close to controlling either revenue or margins. Be able and non threatening and make him look good. Your job is to get “in the room” to learn and make contacts and this is the best way to do if you lack the experience directly.

    Interning is a similar Trojan Horse move… You have flexibility for 6 to 12 months to do that.

    On Buyer vs Seller… If you can’t actually be a buyer, I.e. acquire assets, then make sure your product or service is more towards the people come to you because they need this than you endlessly having to knock on doors to convince someone you have a solution to a problem they don’t have or is marginally improved over what they have.

    Think about guys who put out oil well fires… There is not a long RFP process and endless trials and vetting and price competition. 🔥

  6. @Sentient

    Ok so I’ve neark finished Mystery Method but I haven’t yet actually analysed my weaknesses.

    In the meantime I was out Friday night with my friend and his 16 year old son who has approach anxiety so I hit on three sets of two in the same bar and dragged him in to prove women don’t bite.

    One set I didn’t video, the second set I put on a video call with Playdontpay via WhatsApp because they had claimed to be posh and living in an upmarket area and I’d questioned this. Since he lives in their area I needed him to verify. Thanks mate!!

    Third set I did video and also I’ve worked out how to get the audio working.

    This is Palma bat to the fence game and I didn’t bother to number close I just wished them good night and left because I was with the boys and just having fun

    Thoughts and comments on any weakness or bad game?

    https://imgur.com/a/tKzLQ1Y

  7. The tkzLq1y clip is only the girl saying you look stressed. Not sure if you meant to post a different clip.

    From this clip it’s obvious you have good verbals and are glib. Which is good, but not sufficient right?

    Good game is about being ruthless. Ruthlessness requires doing what is required in the moment to get the bang. It might be push it might be pull it might be leading it might be kino it might be backing off. It’s ALWAYS calibrated to the feedback loops you’re getting and knowing where you are in the process.

    So That clip is a great example of a powerful open and spiking attraction and getting emotional responses from her and some IOIs. And if you didn’t do anything with the set it’s all just dancing monkey.

    Now I get that you we’re having fun and taking the piss and not closing cause with your boys. It’s a good example nevertheless.

  8. @Sentient

    I’ve looked at the footage and in don’t think that I can expand it here really but it is the right clip.

    I had been trying to drag my mates son into each set but he was sat there with his arse super glued to the stool clutching his drink petrified… we’d been bantering him all day and he’d been fighting back well. It was a boys night.

    The interaction had gone something like this :

    After open of set PS sits down immediately next to girls and a bit of small talk.

    PS friend and his son are at the bar 15/20 foot away..

    Conversation gets to girl asking what I’ve been doing that day..

    PS “working with my mate and his son who just won’t do as he’s told.. god .. kids – no wonder I’m stressed (DLV I know but delivery was in humour)“

    Then some shit from both me and my friend to his son to come over and meet the girls.. he sits glued to chair – deer I the headlights .. not budging so me and mate wound in and heckled him harder..

    PS “see what I mean – won’t do as he’s told – you see why I’m stressed?”

    Then I started videoing on some pretext and ran the stressed theme a bit hard (probably overdid it).

    Interesting as this is the first time I’ve analysed myself in this way but self deprecation is usually bad… might have got away with it

    Then the line “don’t worry I’m not gonna make you suck my cock” – she went into hysterics

    Next time I’ll a follow up when she leans back in “it’d just ruin you for your boyfriend” or something – I don’t know but timing would have to be right and I’d have to have caught her sense of humour correctly.

    You’re right though it isn’t enough to get with women half my age.

    This is because none of this is canned, I’m just winging it. I am doing a great deal of the mystery method but I have no quality control and I’m dropping steps and hitting it way too hard on a lot of cases.

    I’ll report back again.

  9. Palma

    After open of set PS sits down immediately next to girls and a bit of small talk.

    Good. The other girls around will see you.

    girl asking what I’ve been doing that day..

    Good. IOI

    no wonder I’m stressed (DLV I know but delivery was in humour)

    self deprecation is usually bad… might have got away with it

    Self deprecation is fine when it is patently ironic… The problem with chodes is it’s not ironic. Same thing with ‘gay” humor. It’s fine if it’s obvi you’e not gay. when it’s in question is the rub.

    The “wet baby carrot” routine is self deprecating. what makes it and similar work is the irony of the delivery.

    she went into hysterics

    yeah emotional spike. Attraction material. All good. But you ‘read” MM right? You know what comes next? Right?

    Comfort.

    Mystery says the game is won in comfort. which means the game is lost is comfort. This is the slippery slope. Too much comfort – chode. Too little – dancing monkey or “playa”…

    MM book actually has sections where you start in comfort and blow it, or justdo attraction and blow it…

    You “read” it right?

    You’re right though it isn’t enough to get with women half my age.

    Following the process is required regardless of the age of the participants. Attraction – Comfort – Seduction. In order. That doe snot mean it is sequential cliff vesting… It is titration… You still need to seed attraction when in comfort, and in seduction. No stair stepping. Progression is the byword.

    This is because none of this is canned, I’m just winging it

    canned is irrelevant. One hang up guys have when reading MM is they think they need “routines” etc. It’s not that. It’s the structure. canned stuff is just stuff you have said before because you’ve already worked out all of the possible responses and have answer for all of them. so there is no surprise. That is the value of a routine. Chess not checkers. No surprises.

    Ruthless…

    I said a few posts back understand the WHY behind the HOW. That is the most important thing. The WHY… structure, timing etc.

    I am doing a great deal of the mystery method but I have no quality control and I’m dropping steps and hitting it way too hard on a lot of cases

    Yeah you’ve not thought about it. Not thought about the losses enough… When you hit, you hit. And maybe it’s 60% or more. Which is good enough. But it’s not consistent. That is the goal. Consistency. The WHY behind the HOW will bring greater consistency.

    Attraction – a little compliance testing – bounce to intra-venue isolation, comfort, then some escalation and pulling.

  10. A lot of guys here can’t open. Opening is good but is not sufficient. It is what follows that makes or breaks things. That is why I say don’t stress the open. The open is just a gambit to bring everything else.

    Sure you CAN blow things open with a spectacular “brute force” open… But it is not consistent. [see apocalypse open] and you must still lead the interaction to sex. Actually a powerful open can bite you in the ass if you can’t follow it up. Venus Flytrap Game has generally been better. Lure them in slowly and build progressively on the interaction… Fits right in with the “it just happened” narrative…

  11. @Sentient

    Ok – ‘comfort is where the game is won or lost.’

    I was out earlier in the week on my own and I had another one literally in hysterics for a large part of the evening. She was coming back to the well time after time in a group environment and each time it escalated.

    She was all over me, IOI and touching me etc… walking down the street linking arm etc..

    I moved on without doing a traditional number close because I had her on the app anyway and then I got this:

    https://imgur.com/gallery/t8jJkeo

    I thought ‘are you kidding me? – you were loving it’…

    I don’t even want to count how many I’ve blown it over the years by not consciously doing the comfort stage. Where I’ve done it, it’s been by accident.

    There are other bits, but they’re glitches. Comfort is where I’m dropping it.

    Thanks for helping me beat it through. It’s still gonna take some time for me to reprogram the firmware.

  12. @Palma: some girls (due to personality or circumstances) need very little comfort (they still need some – they at least need to think you’re not going to harm them).

  13. You can pull with very little comfort, You need to lead the interaction quickly though. and the worse your logistics the harder.

    Good luck trying to get her back after the bang – ASD/Buyer’s Remorse, or on a day 2 if you didn’t bang.

    I don’t even want to count how many I’ve blown it over the years by not consciously doing the comfort stage.

    A little comfort will lead to more consistency.

    Page 53
    SEQUENCING MISTAKE #3: TO START AT THE
    BEGINNING BUT SKIP THE MIDDLE AND GO
    STRAIGHT TO THE END

    Every beginning and ending has a middle, and in M3 that middle is
    comfort. There is a time to seduce a girl (or be seduced), but it’s not
    until after you have built comfort.

    RULES AND STRUCTURE OF THE GAME S3

    THE PLAYER

    A player is a Venusian artist who begins at the beginning and successfully
    attracts a girl but fails to avoid the three player traps. Every
    Venusian artist must be aware of them:

    1. Failure to justify a mutual attraction
    2. Disregard of comfort
    3. Buyer’s remorse

    Player Trap#l: Failure to Justify a Mutual Attraction
    justifiably to men, a woman’s beauty can be so intoxicating that it
    alone qualifies her as girlfriend material. But we cannot let her know
    we’re choosing her based on looks because it doesn’t seem genuine
    and makes us appear like other typical men.

    A woman’s indicators of interest (IOIs) notify when to go from the
    attraction stage to the comfort stage, but you must not do so until she
    has legitimately earned your IOIs as well! Getting IOIs from a woman
    is simply not enough reason to begin returning them. If you are too
    easy, she will mark you as another notch in her belt and move on in
    search of more challenging conquests.

    Some examples of IOIs:
    • She asks you for your name.
    • She touches you. When you say, “Hands off the merchandise,”
    she touches you again.
    • When you grab her hands and hold them, she holds back.
    • She laughs at all your humorous remarks—and the ones that
    aren’t funny as well.
    • When you ask her to bite your neck, she does.

    You must first encourage her to demonstrate qualities that can substantiate
    your attraction. If you don’t, she may suspect that you only
    played with her emotions, callously attracting her in a game to win an-other score. She will feel uncomfortable being attracted to you, and as
    a result she will lose this attraction for you quickly. Your attract ion –
    stage dialogue will in fact be viewed as conniving, and she will perceive
    you as being emotionally manipulative. In this light, a player is
    simply a seducer with good opening game.

    Having successfully negotiated beyond the first player trap, the
    Venusian artist can then move on to comfort building.

    Player Trap #2: Disregard of Comfort
    If you attempt to seduce a woman before building sufficient comfort,
    her attraction switches for you will turn off. To keep this from
    happening, you must build enough comfort so your seduction won’t
    make her feel uncomfortable. Do not cross the line from comfort to
    seduction until you have developed enough comfort.

    T H E SEVEN-HOU R RULE When do you know you have enough
    comfort to begin seduction? It takes an average of four to ten hours of
    cumulative comfort building before a woman is ready for seduction.
    (Not counting fool’s mate—which, as I said earlier, is a strategy to be
    avoided by true Venusian artists.) There is no black-and-white rule for
    determining when that moment has arrived. Only your calibration
    can tell you that. (More on the Seven-Hour Rule later.)

    Player Trap #3: Buyer’s Remorse
    Buyer’s remorse occurs when a person purchases something on a
    whim, only to regret the purchase later. Similarly, a woman who is attracted
    to you may be pushed or, on her own, go too far too soon.

    RULES AND STRUCTURE OF THE GAME S3
    While in the moment she may indulge in her attraction and sexual
    arousal) only to regret her feelings or actions later. Assuming you want
    to reach the seduction phase, buyer’s remorse is something you want
    to avoid at all costs.

    https://conquistaperfeita.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/The-Mystery-Method-How-to-Get-Beautiful-Women-Into-Bed.pdf

  14. Boys – you got me I’m missing the comfort stage.

    That’s why I have been backing off from FNL’s because they’re not returning. I thought it was buyers remorse from ASD and I thought the answer was to string it out over 3 dates and not hit too hard.

    However theres also buyers remorse from zero comfort.

    And

    Failure to close from zero comfort

    Where I have been giving comfort it’s been by accident for various reasons.

    IAS – you need a script and a process which increases your odds across the board.

    It’s weak sales to avoid objection handling and it results in a high cancellation rate / failure to close.

    Comfort is a part of the process that needs to be dealt with and that’s all there is to it.

  15. Palma

    Pay close attention on how you transition into Comfort… There is a lot of qualifying and push taking place in A3 that you need to get through before you get into too much comfort…

    “She must be baited to invest herself
    in this interaction. ”

    Page 126…

  16. @sentient

    I’m not blowing smoke but I think I do have an awful lot of it covered because I’ve had enough practice to gauge real time attraction including making them qualify and invest.

    The really difficult bit is dissecting what I’m already doing and getting comfort in the right place and making it flow.

    I’m gonna take apart the memories of a standard venue bounce script I have and try to work it forward from there.

  17. @Sentient

    Ok so comfort.

    I’m gonna practice on that one that said she was uncomfortable.

    I sent her this a week after she kicked me out.. not so subtle she’s in the 99.99% and not ‘special’ she replied within 10 minutes.

    https://imgur.com/gallery/t8jJkeo

    She’s at a group event in a few days and I’m going to hit her again, piss take about her being a prude / become a nun / not my type / blah blah blah

    But this time I’m going to build comfort and get her to a date or a FNL..

    I might even record it if I can get the kit that’s discrete enough.

    I’ll report back.

  18. @IRL

    So I’ve thought through your position which if I am correct is that you moved half way round the world with your family to pursue an opportunity and it flunked and you are now there with a limit on resources and considering starting in business.

    A bit of background – firstly I only ever started one business by consciously going into it. That was when I was 28 and it was property.

    I did it while I had another job which gave me freedom and a funded car and covered my living expenses. It took several years before it would stand alone to fund my lifestyle.

    All the other businesses I’ve had – like sentient – are things that just cropped up along the way. Including the one I sold to a listed PLC. All of these took an order of years not months to turn a profit. I needed other income to live.

    Everyone thinks that an entrepreneur keeps taking risks and that’s true but the true nature of an entrepreneur is misunderstood. For this reason lots of people lead risk averse lives and then finally, fed up with mediocrity of their existence decide to TAKE A RISK! It’s about time!

    It’s typically a ridiculous badly calibrated risk which flunks spectacularly (they were half hoping it would as this vindicates they ‘weren’t cut out for it anyway’) and props up the ego investment they have in 20-30 odd years of wage slavery.

    “I knew it – I was right to work for the man as I’m just not cut out for this – return to 9-5 and take out the trash on the way”

    So when an entrepreneur is playing with his own money he does very often take enormous risks. But the risk is intended to identify a behavioural pattern that can be scaled.

    Plus – even though the risk is enormous in the context that the money will probably be totally lost, it is likely a comparatively low amount of money compared to his wealth. Over time and with experience the entrepreneur hones this and may increase individual tests. Plus others offer their money to the entrepreneur when he has a proven record. It is down to the entrepreneur whether he accepts this money and on what terms.

    The most I ever stacked into a trial was £100k. Back then that amounted to 2% of my assets. At the time I had VC and senior debt lined up to scale it but it flunked at the last hurdle. In hindsight I’m glad I escaped VC clutches as that would have landed me in a whole hamster wheel I don’t have the correct personality to manage. That was £100k lesson.

    The least I’ve done (and regularly do) on a trial is £500. That’s on a mailer campaign to see if I can cost effectively get a customer for something new I’m thinking of. If I stuff £500, who cares, I spend that on a pair of shoes. Most of the time it flunks but something spins off from it. If I win, I know the market is big enough to make out like a bandit. And I have the processes and people in place to strip it.

    A business is something that you can control and scale that can reliably provide something to a customer for less than the cost of the customer acquisition and provision of that service or product. (You can have lofty ambitions to predict markets etc.. but that won’t pay the rent right now and you won’t own your shit – see Tesla – he probably will make it by the way)

    For the purposes of making money it doesn’t matter if it’s clearing shit from the streets or App development.

    There are less competitors in the dirty end of the market, but if you get it right you’re not doing the work anyway and no one cares how you made your money when you’re sat on your yacht.

    Forget about ‘enjoying your work’. Its all about the money and it’s better if you don’t enjoy it as you’ll remain focused.

    Assuming you can find and start a small scale able profitable business you need the cash flow to survive. Most new businesses fail because of cash starvation. Ideally you acquire your customers and pay for them when you get paid like for instance an affiliate scheme.

    Try to avoid google – you are bidding in real time against others for the customer. If your competitor are backed by silly money or are morons with lofty “brand building” ambitions they may be making a loss on each customer on a P&L basis in the pursuit of some lofty bullshit.. the last thing you need to be doing is trying to compete with this stupidity.

    Forget about building a brand, you can’t afford it, and the journey will divert you from the discipline of making a profit on each customer. You don’t want a bad rep but that’s different.

    Your current cash position will affect your propensity for risk. Plus even though you have a solid frame you will encounter HUGE pressure from your wife to de risk your existence when shit starts to get hard.

    If something gets off the ground you will inevitably be drawn to “the bastards” and “the bastards” will be drawn to you. “The bastards are the banks and other financiers”. Incompetent and unable to build their own enterprise they will regard your enterprise as rightfully belonging to them and they will come to your door with “good ideas”.

    Banks have rooms full of people looking at the money in your account / the turnover through your business and your assets but doing nothing but wank off over ideas to relieve you of it.

    Often this takes the guise of lending you THEIR MONEY so you can GROW but this can often be a Trojan horse which turns into an outright raid of your assets / third party control and loss of your enterprise.

    In terms of funding, try to forget banks. Normal banks don’t take risks that they know about. If you get to the stage of needing funding then bear this in mind. If the bank identifies that they can make money from you they will give you a “relationshit manager”. They will tell you that they price the risk. This is bullshit – repeat after me :banks don’t take risks they know about.

    They will approve the facility if they don’t think they will loose and the managers job is to get the Maximum price out of you.

    You’re better to swim with the smaller guys and get your credit elsewhere from suppliers / customers etc.

    Get something right now that gives you freedom and covers your bills right now.. like an Uber driver. Forget ego . If that’s what needs to be done then do it.

    Consider any current business as part of a journey as it’s unlikely to be an end in itself. Look at Duncan Bannantyne – he started with ice cream vans – low barriers to entry so a ruthless business where owners go at each other for turf with baseball bats. Concrete pumps and groundwork are similar in the U.K.

    Often something like that will give you a start though and give you the freedom and cash flow you need for the next step.

    Incorporate your business to land the liabilities in a separate vehicle to you. No personal guarantees and no business partners. Especially not your wife. You retain all the equity that you can.

    Lastly, when it seems like the world is against you keep your head, nothing comes on top as fast as people would like you to think and if they bankrupt you they’ll never get paid. Provided you have complied with the above rules of no PG and If it comes to it, threaten them with the bankruptcy of your own enterprise and see their attitude change.

    Let me know if you need anything else as I’m sure I’ve missed parts here.

  19. One last thing

    Don’t get emotionally invested in a business – it’s not your baby. While persistence is important, if it’s a dud then give it bullet and move on.

    Oh, and in case I forgot to mention it:

    Banker is Wanker.

  20. Some solid gold tips there Palma…

    Let me add something about OPM. “Other People’s Money”. You can use it very advantageously if your work out the details right (no guarantees, you control operations and revenue acquisition etc.). Keep in mind that less than 100% of something valuable is more than 100% of something worthless.

    Yes – YOU WILL get “fucked” in the end if you do not have effective control. However you can hive off stacks on the way…

    My first business I put in exactly $0 in equity for 50%. I had the idea and had all the knowledge. Shit I even drew a salary… My stake got diluted through an eventual 5 rounds of funding, well into eight figures. And each round I was stacking cash out of the deal while greedy fools pushed it. After a dispute I split. eventually cashed out my equity completely. within 18 months they were spiraling down the drain. They all lost 100%.

    Next biz got paid upfront to start… again $0 cash out of me. Done several different things within this structure… Raised near mid 9 figures… OPM is nice.

    This is what I meant by focus on deals and money will work itself out.

  21. Hello guys,

    First off, bear with me on my spelling and grammar, since I’m not a native English speaker.

    This post will be rather long, so I’ll add a Too Long Didn’t Read (TLDR) at the end.

    An introduction to myself:
    I’m in my early 40s, married for nearly 9 years, have a single son who is almost 7 yo. I’m fit, have all my finances in order, stable job, and currently consider myself a 7 or 8 on the “post 40 yo male” SMV.

    My wife has the same age as I have (she is only a couple of months younger than I am), is financially independent from myself (actually, we both have zero debt, and do not need each others money to survive), and is a woman with a very pretty face and gorgeous smile, but no so much sexy body (very tiny A-cup breasts, small flabby ass, skinny legs – resembles an anorexic top model). I would rate her as a solid 7, though she can pass by as an 8 when she’s all geared up for going out at night (never saw her as an 9 or 10). After hitting The Wall, I believe her SMV dropped a point or two, and now I see her as 6 or 7. She is very, very career driven, though loves our son very much and values our “family”. Has a low/regular sex drive (maybe because of her extreme career/money obsession), but does enjoy sex! Has incredibly huge Anti-Slut Defense (ASD), mostly due to her great preoccupation of her self-image towards her family members, work peers and friends (it would CRUSH her if anyone of our social circle knew she is a “slut/adulterous woman”).

    I started out as blue pill as fuck; textbook “Nice Guy” till my late teens. In my early 20s, I “evolved” into a classic example of a “needy Alpha 1.0” (aka purple pill) and became a “serial monogamist”! I kept up this needy Alpha trait until my late 30s, into my first years of marriage, right until my only son was born.

    After I became a father, things got out of control (remember: needy Alphas thrive on “control”), started losing my frame and slowly and unwillingly handing it over to my wife.

    After a lot of intense drama during the first three years of fatherhood (due to loss of my frame and failing married sex life), I stumble upon Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Primer. It was my first contact EVER with something resembling the Red Pill. From there on, click after click, I swallowed the Red Pill, read extensive material on Rational Male, Red Pill Reddit, MGTOW sites, etc. 

    Tried to improve myself through Red Pill and MGTOW frames, but that led to incredible resentment from my wife, who withdrew herself from me even more! I then became something very dangerous: JADED! I was jaded toward sex, men-women relationships, and towards all women – even (and specially) my own wife! You could call it Red Pill Rage at its finest!

    A couple of years ago, I find out about BlackDragon’s Blog (an Alpha/ Red Pill blog) and his definition of the Alpha 2.0. I read his book, read lots of his articles on his blog and decided that the Alpha 1.0 trait, which I always thought was the right way to go if you were to be an “Alpha Male”, was wrong. I CRAVED for a life with little or no drama! I didn’t even get impressed by the abundance of women or sex in BD’s testimonials; what I really, really wanted was PEACE OF MIND!

    So, I decided to train myself to become “outcome independent”. I keep failing at that! Very difficult to evolve from a needy Alpha to a true Alpha. But I persist! I began to improve myself: going through dental work, dressing smarter, hitting the gym, trying to not get pissed off at the tsunami of shit tests my wife throws at me as I improve myself!

    – Year 2016: I’m clearly improving myself! But, unfortunately, my wife does not see this as something of her benefit: instead of feeling more attraction towards me, she withdraws from me, says that I don’t want to be married to her anymore, shit testing and shaming goes through the roof! I then do something very Alpha 1.0: I become passive aggressive as hell! I completely stop seducing her for sex, I stop answering her texts, I give her the “silent treatment” every time we are together and/or just give her short answers. We grow apart as ever in our marriage; the only things that holds us together is the love we have for our small son. Three weeks before Christmas, and after nearly 10 months of passive aggressiveness on both our parts, she asks for a divorce. I agree, but neither she or I seek lawyers or take it truthfully. She takes my son to her mother’s in another city and I spend Christmas ALONE. This hurts. And I do a very blue pill thing: I beg her to reconsider the divorce, come back home and promise that we can work it out.

    Present Day: two years go by; sex in 2017 gets better; we start enjoying more family time together; our son clearly thrives and looks happier than previous years. But, something goes wrong… After only a brief period of 3-4 months in early 2017, she starts the same behavior that triggers my dissatisfaction in our marriage: she goes on full throttle workaholic mode! She also starts to hang out with a close and mutual friend who is a woman that is a behavioral trainwreck: divorced from a bad boy thug, later got pregnant with some beta loser she met in a night club, and now is facing a possible second divorce.

    Both these traits in my wife (excessive and pathological dedication to her job/money and poor choice of friendships) lead to a regression, once again, in our sex life and family time together. I get very pissed, and my journey to become an outcome independent Alpha 2.0 is hijacked once more: I start the same passive aggressive shit I did in 2016, to which she responds with even more incredibly false excuses to not have sex with me, and also starts spending even more time with the trainwreck friend (which once she referred to as an “experienced woman”).

    A start feeling very, very tired and jaded of putting up with her crap and excuses for not having sex! She treats me more and more like a personal “errand boy”, seeking me out only when she needs some help for something in her own life! Sex is scarce (but, truly, when we do have sex, it is clearly FUN and ENJOYABLE for both of us! I still can make her cum hard, and I do enjoy fucking her!). I start considering going MGTOW, with only one problem: I ENJOY sex – and I can’t see myself withdrawing from women!

    2018 – Where am I now: Alpha 1.0 traits came back full time: lots of passive aggressiveness from my part and also from hers. We hardly have sex anymore. I’m seriously considering cheating on her with some high-class escort girl, just to fulfill my sex urges. And, naturally, I am now considering a divorce: already talked to two lawyers without her knowing. I took off my wedding ring for nearly 60 days now, but she didn’t make any comments about it. I’ve also noticed that she only wears her wedding ring when we have mutual friends or family over; on other days, I don’t see her wearing any ring, but I also don’t comment on it (some of this is due to her work requirements, which due to sanitary reasons, she is obliged to take off any jewelry from her hands). A month ago we went on a vacation trip together as a family, things were still tense between us, haven’t had sex in a couple of months, then, out of nowhere, on one of the nights in our room, she starts initiating sex with me, which ended up being just good sex, but definitely not great sex! The very next day, she starts with shit testing again, and were back to square one.

    – The thing that holds me back from divorcing: my lovely 6 year old son! He is the light of my life! I still CAN NOT see myself walking way from him! He is a happy and thriving young boy, who loves rock music, silly cartoons, video games, and fast cars just like his old man! This is a child who spontaneously says he LOVES me, and that I’m his BEST FRIEND! I do not have the heart to walk out on him, even if I get to see him every day! It would surely CRUSH HIS HEART to see his daddy walk out of his home! And, it would crush my heart too!
     
    – Too long;didn’t read (TLDR): I’m a guy in his early 40s, married for nearly 9 years, have a 6 yo son. I’m a classic needy Alpha, and I’m going through a shit storm with my wife (meaning very, very poor sex life and lots of shaming and shit testing). I feel extremely tired and jaded from her shit tests and I’m strongly considering divorce, but do not have the heart to hurt my son’s feelings!
     
    Any thoughts? Have the passive aggressiveness gone too far to fix in my case? Do you guys thinks I can regain frame after so many years of mutual frustration? Or should I just suck it up and divorce her ass, no fucks given and go MGTOW with some fuck buddies on the side!?

  22. Hairy

    You seem like a Blue Pill pussy. That is why nothing is working for you.

    Have you read Rollo?

    The very next day, she starts with shit testing again

    And you go back to failing them. Fix that, and things will change…

  23. @Sentient 7:00am:

    Thanks for the warm welcome!

    Yes, I’ve read Rollo! Hence, I’m here at his page looking for advice on how to pass the fucking shit tests!

    I’ve tried the amused mastery, didn’t work.

    I’ve tried the “not giving a fuck approach”, and also doesn’t seem to work.

    Sentient, are you married? Or divorced? If you haven’t been married, any advice from you will be worthless, because, as Rollo himself said: marriage is Red Pill on hard mode! And if you, Mr. Sentient, haven’t been in a marriage of almost a decade, then you’re not even close to knowing what “hard mode” is.

  24. @Navel.. I didn’t say it would be easy.. but stick with it. You retain enough IOI’s from your wife to turn this on my opinion and if you don’t youll be in exactly the same position in two years with your next woman but you will have lost your son. Start with passing the shit tests and running dread game. Plus read the books.

    Forget identifying yourself as Alpha or Beta. You’re not in control of your marriage. Fix that first.

  25. HairyNavel

    You’re not in control of your marriage.

    Palma – worse than that – he’s not in control of himself. That’s why he has all this anger…

    He…. Just. Wants. It. To. Happen. Dammit!

    Even his decision on divorce… He’s in between. When you are in the middle of the road you get run over. And nothing is his fault.

    Anger is rarely sexy. Anger communicates you don’t have agency over a situation.

    You need to own up to your shortcomings Hairy, and go reread the books. You know desire can’t be negotiated? You even do evo-bio/psych brah?

  26. @ Sentient: 30 years married? Any kids? Tell me that not even once in those 30 years you thought of giving your little cupcake the boot? Not once got tired of all shit testing?

    Good for you! You are holier than me!

    Shit testing daily leads to mental and physical exhaustion, which leads to frustration, which leads to anger, which will eventually lead to jadedness.

    No need to reread any of these books, which are all one and the same; just different words regarding the same male drama!

    I guess I came here impulsively, and I regret doing so.

    Anyways, have fun dodging shit tests from your 30 years long spouse, if that’s what you’re into.

    Again, I apologize for barging in your domain.

    Kudos to you and all your followers.

    I’m done with this shit.

  27. Hairy

    That’s the kind of pussy shit I was talking about.

    There is plenty of help here for you, from me and many others.

    But you don’t get what you want right when you want it and you throw a bossy and split.

    How will you ever pass a shit test?

    Do you know what happens when you pass?

    Lol.

    You pass… Passing changes things.

    Go if you want to. If you want to learn stay.

  28. @Navel

    He hasn’t dodged them he’s handled them.

    And you haven’t plus your wife is still interested which is why you’re still getting them hard and fast.

    I suggested you come here for a reason but it’s up to you.

  29. @Harry,

    ANYBODY here who bothers to comment to you is using their time they could have spent elsewhere. Start there knowing that they care enough to do that. Once you admit that, know that some people here come at you directly to HELP YOU bust down your own buffers faster. Call that method a shit test if you will, but you failed Sentient’s approach and go all “I’m done with this shit.” He knows what he’s saying. You calling yourself “alpha 1.0” or whatever is a buffer, dude! How you handled the simplest ribbing here proves you are nothing near that.

    Now on to my comment.

    I remember reading about some Sedona Method of handling stressful situations many years back. Paraphrasing, you take a negative action in front of you (your wife’s shit tests for example) and imagine that they are a literal weight (like a dumb bell) floating in front of you. You have two choices – 1. you “react” and grab the weight and now you have the burden of holding up that heavy-ass weight (anger), or 2. You simply “observe” the weight and don’t react, ie, shit just bounces off you without absorbing. Choice 1 is not Alpha 1.0. Choice 2 IS alpha. Choice 2 is amused mastery, and that’s what you will learn once you drop your buffers and listen to the wise words of people like Sentient.

  30. Hairy

    see if you can see yourself in this…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjfZctGMq8

    Blake: Let me have your attention for a moment! So you’re talking about what? You’re talking about…(puts out his cigarette)…bitching about that sale you shot, some son of a bitch that doesn’t want to buy, somebody that doesn’t want what you’re selling, some broad you’re trying to screw and so forth. Let’s talk about something important. Are they all here?
    Williamson: All but one.
    Blake: Well, I’m going anyway. Let’s talk about something important! (to Levene) Put that coffee down!! Coffee’s for closers only. (Levene scoffs) Do you think I’m fucking with you? I am not fucking with you. I’m here from downtown. I’m here from Mitch and Murray. And I’m here on a mission of mercy. Your name’s Levene?
    Levene: Yeah.
    Blake: You call yourself a salesman, you son of a bitch?
    Moss: I don’t have to listen to this shit.
    Blake: You certainly don’t pal. ‘Cause the good news is — you’re fired. The bad news is you’ve got, all you got, just one week to regain your jobs, starting tonight. Starting with tonights sit. Oh, have I got your attention now? Good. ‘Cause we’re adding a little something to this months sales contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anyone want to see second prize? Second prize’s a set of steak knives. Third prize is you’re fired. You get the picture? You’re laughing now? You got leads. Mitch and Murray paid good money. Get their names to sell them! You can’t close the leads you’re given, you can’t close shit, you ARE shit, hit the bricks pal and beat it ’cause you are going out!!!
    Levene: The leads are weak.
    Blake: ‘The leads are weak.’ Fucking leads are weak? You’re weak. I’ve been in this business fifteen years.
    Moss: What’s your name?
    Blake: FUCK YOU, that’s my name!! You know why, Mister? ‘Cause you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight, I drove a eighty thousand dollar BMW. That’s my name!! (to Levene) And your name is “you’re wanting.” And you can’t play in a man’s game. You can’t close them. (at a near whisper) And you go home and tell your wife your troubles. (to everyone again) Because only one thing counts in this life! Get them to sign on the line which is dotted! You hear me, you fucking faggots?
    (Blake flips over a blackboard which has two sets of letters on it: ABC, and AIDA.)
    Blake: A-B-C. A-always, B-be, C-closing. Always be closing! Always be closing!! A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action. Attention — do I have your attention? Interest — are you interested? I know you are because it’s fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks! Decision — have you made your decision for Christ?!! And action. A-I-D-A; get out there!! You got the prospects comin’ in; you think they came in to get out of the rain? Guy doesn’t walk on the lot unless he wants to buy. Sitting out there waiting to give you their money! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it? (to Moss) What’s the problem pal? You. Moss.
    Moss: You’re such a hero, you’re so rich. Why you coming down here and waste your time on a bunch of bums?
    (Blake sits and takes off his gold watch)
    Blake: You see this watch? You see this watch?
    Moss: Yeah.
    Blake: That watch cost more than your car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see, pal, that’s who I am. And you’re nothing. Nice guy? I don’t give a shit. Good father? Fuck you — go home and play with your kids!! (to everyone) You wanna work here? Close!! (to Aaronow) You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can’t take this — how can you take the abuse you get on a sit?! You don’t like it — leave. I can go out there tonight with the materials you got, make myself fifteen thousand dollars! Tonight! In two hours! Can you? Can you? Go and do likewise! A-I-D-A!! Get mad! You sons of bitches! Get mad!! You know what it takes to sell real estate?
    (He pulls something out of his briefcase)
    Blake: It takes brass balls to sell real estate.
    (He’s holding two brass balls on string, over the appropriate “area”–he puts them away after a pause)
    Blake: Go and do likewise, gents. The money’s out there, you pick it up, it’s yours. You don’t–I have no sympathy for you. You wanna go out on those sits tonight and close, close, it’s yours. If not you’re going to be shining my shoes. Bunch of losers sitting around in a bar. (in a mocking weak voice) “Oh yeah, I used to be a salesman, it’s a tough racket.” (he takes out large stack of red index cards tied together with string from his briefcase) These are the new leads. These are the Glengarry leads. And to you, they’re gold. And you don’t get them. Why? Because to give them to you is just throwing them away. (he hands the stack to Williamson) They’re for closers.
    I’d wish you good luck but you wouldn’t know what to do with it if you got it. (to Moss as he puts on his watch again) And to answer your question, pal: why am I here? I came here because Mitch and Murray asked me to, they asked me for a favor. I said, the real favor, follow my advice and fire your fucking ass because a loser is a loser.
    (He stares at Moss for a sec, and then picking up his briefcase, goes into inner office with Williamson)

  31. Why would anyone use the avatar screen name HarryNavel?

    I sometimes forget to understand what the concept of navel gazing is. So I have to look it up.

    navel-gazing:
    Engaging in self-absorbed behavior, often to the point of being narcissistic.

    na·vel-gaz·ing:
    noun
    self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view.

    navel-gazing
    noun [ U ] UK ​ /ˈneɪ.vəlˌɡeɪ.zɪŋ/ US ​ /ˈneɪ.vəlˌɡeɪ.zɪŋ/ humorous disapproving
    ​the activity of spending too much time considering your own thoughts, feelings, or problems

    It seems to me it should be labeled a verb.

    That escalated quickly before he took his ball and went home…

    He sure Knows Thyself in that he can’t handle shit tests.

  32. @SJF

    He’s a decent enough bloke, he’s South American. He has a nice looking wife and he’s just struggling to unplug like a lot have.

    Remind me where I said that everyone I give the book to never speaks to me again !

  33. @PalmaSailor

    Is this someone you know and trust? to make it through triage? (two separate questions.)

    I get that english as a second language is a problem. South American is probably a cultural problem too. Too willing to call himself some sort of Alpha when there is no evidence of that either.

    I get that men not having release from constraint (and not getting blow jobs everyday from their wife is a problem).

    I get that there is a burden of performance.

    For the record, I’d like Gazing Navel to stay and get a participation award here. Maybe even learn how to have flip attraction switches in his wife. Take back her domination of him.

    If he doesn’t want to participate, there are still lessons for the lurkers.

    (I love your style PalmaSailor because it is very complementary to red pill and game style. The greatest thing to do is get in a guy tribe and discover your blind spots while enhancing your strenghs and minimizing your weaknesses. Hairy Navel is self involved so as not to do this.)

    So for the lurkers. Harvey Navel was a wanna be Alpha. But fuck the alpha label. It is meaningless here.

    His actions and mindset doomed him to have his wife Betatize him for the sake of her and her child. Briffault’s law strait up. That is what women do and its their firmware. There is nothing wrong with that. It’s for the best. It’s a Game for outcome.

    So what to do?

    Don’t have the mindset and attitudes that you do Harvey Belly Button.

    If he’s a friend or an acquaintance of you Palma, tell him to get his ass back here.

    Guys shit test guys to see if they want them in their tribe. Obviously he didn’t pass Sentient’s testing his mettle.

    The problem with him is he is not teachable. He’s too incorrigible. He’s blind to his own blind spots.

    Once again for those following along at home:

    His wife has got his balls in a vise. She betatized him fair and square and she’s not going to give her vise up for the sake of anything less than him leaning into (providing a lot of stuff) for her and her kid. She never saw him as a leader, because he is needy and just doesn’t get it regarding her and her kid.

    Illimitable Man Maxim:

    IM MAXIM #24: “If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways. She will never really believe he is a worthy leader.”

    He dug himself a hole.

    He may study Red Pill, but he didn’t realize how the Female Imperative works, because he is stuck on his own masculine solipsism.

    Here is what his wife’s modus operandi is:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/02/28/assurances/comment-page-4/#comment-143613

    He has to get over his ego investments. He has to be (masculine) attractive to her. Create dread, project outcome independence, be in his own frame, not ask mommy to pity fuck him, and be genuine in leading a masculine life that she is invited to be a complement to, not the focus of. His mind is focused on her pussy. She has the pussy so she makes the rules. He needs to re-write the rules.

    He doesn’t show signs that he will make it through triage.

  34. Oh, and PalmaSailor: Kudos for not dying from a melanoma (or two) you neglected to find in time. Life is short make the best of it.

    Have to have your wits about you.

  35. @Everyone: HairyNavel reminds me a bit of where I was a few years ago. Except he has a kid and a great deal more of ego getting in his own way.

    I’m probably spending too much of my time on this, but thinking about this will help me progress as well.

    @HairyNavel
    I’m a bit younger than you, I’ve been married for over 10 years. My N=1 (wife) until early this year. Now my N=2, which is probably lower than your own lifetime N-count. I discovered the Red Pill more or less when you did. Make of that what you want to.

    I recommend to you some posts of @IRL but I can’t find them right now.

    My reply to your original post (your replies after that are full of angry butthurt ego defense).

    “I’m in my early 40s, married for nearly 9 years”
    Wife same age – you married a post-wall, epiphany phase woman. Not ideal.

    “I’m fit”
    How fit?

    “and values our “family””
    This is what someone says (your or her), not what her actions (reported by you) reflect at all.
    See what she does, not what she says!

    “Has a low/regular sex drive (maybe because of her extreme career/money obsession)”
    Because you aren’t arousing.

    “Has incredibly huge Anti-Slut Defense (ASD), mostly due to”
    Mostly because you aren’t arousing her enough.

    “(it would CRUSH her if anyone of our social circle knew she is a “slut/adulterous woman”).”
    Excuses, rationalization. How would they know 😛 You are married so adulterous doesn’t even apply.
    If she was sufficiently aroused, at least in the moment she wouldn’t care. You probably (hopefully) have examples of her being extremely aroused, possibly before you were married or early years of marriage before having the kid?
    Then go read Rollo’s “Saving the Best” (or re-read, if you actually have read it already).
    That should help you understand what the true cause is at a more visceral level.

    “I kept up this needy Alpha trait”
    Your ego is getting in your way. Accept that you have several Beta traits and that, if you want to remove them, you need to work on yourself.

    “I swallowed the Red Pill, read extensive material on Rational Male, Red Pill Reddit, MGTOW sites, etc.”
    From what you write, you haven’t really swallowed the Red Pill.
    Really read at least the Best Of sections here in the Rational Male. Red Pill reddit has a lot of good material but also a LOT of stuff which might be contributing to your passive agressive stance on things.
    Have you had a look at MRP Reddit?

    “Tried to improve myself through Red Pill and MGTOW frames, but that led to incredible resentment from my wife, who withdrew herself from me even more!”
    She shit test to see if the change was for real and you…

    “I then became something very dangerous: JADED!”
    … Failed the shit tests.

    “I CRAVED for a life with little or no drama! I didn’t even get impressed by the abundance of women or sex in BD’s testimonials; what I really, really wanted was PEACE OF MIND!”
    Reminds me of my early posts LOL.
    You also want abundance, but I get it. I’ve been there.

    “So, I decided to train myself to become “outcome independent”. I keep failing at that!”
    You need to succeed at this, if you want your life to improve (it isn’t just about this woman). Keep trying.

    “Very difficult to evolve from a needy Alpha to a true Alpha.”
    You weren’t as Alpha as you thought (still think) in the first place. Accept that and maybe it will be easier to improve.

    “But I persist! I began to improve myself: going through dental work, dressing smarter, hitting the gym,”
    Credits for actually doing this because many don’t even. But this is to some extent all easy stuff. Physical improvements because you won’t improve the mental side of things. Whether you like it or not, the mental side is more important. You could have crooked teeth, dress badly and lack fitness and be an Alpha that women want to be with and don’t incessantly shit test.

    “trying to not get pissed off at the tsunami of shit tests my wife throws at me as I improve myself!”
    Which you are failing…

    “she asks for a divorce. I agree, but neither she or I seek lawyers or take it truthfully. She takes my son to her mother’s in another city and I spend Christmas ALONE. This hurts. And I do a very blue pill thing: I beg her to reconsider the divorce, come back home and promise that we can work it out.”
    Ouch. Massive loss of frame. Get ready for her to use the same shit test in the (near) future. At that time I strongly recommend you are already outcome independent. Have the divorce papers ready and your part already signed. If she threatens divorce again you calmly pull out the papers and put them there and tell her to sign. I don’t think she will, but you have to accept that if she does, it was over anyway. If she doesn’t then maybe you can pull through.

    “But, something goes wrong…”
    You kept failing shit tests and you didn’t even notice… So naturally… She felt unhaaappy…

    “After only a brief period of 3-4 months in early 2017, she starts the same behavior that triggers my dissatisfaction in our marriage: she goes on full throttle workaholic mode! She also starts to hang out with a close and mutual friend who is a woman that is a behavioral trainwreck: divorced from a bad boy thug, later got pregnant with some beta loser she met in a night club, and now is facing a possible second divorce.”
    Red flags… BTW, the mutual friend…

    “Both these traits in my wife (excessive and pathological dedication to her job/money and poor choice of friendships) lead to a regression, once again, in our sex life and family time together”
    Apparently you also have a poor choice of friendships 😛

    She is dedicated to job/money because you aren’t worthy of her dedication. Also this helps her prepare to split from you and onto some other prospect (maybe she can’t even get a better one, maybe she can, but don’t trust her to know it objectively regardless).

    “I get very pissed, and my journey to become an outcome independent Alpha 2.0 is hijacked once more: I start the same passive aggressive shit I did in 2016,”
    Your non-existing journey – you only did the easy physical stuff and as soon as the shit tests resume you regressed to exactly where you had been before!

    “to which she responds with even more incredibly false excuses to not have sex with me, and also starts spending even more time with the trainwreck friend (which once she referred to as an “experienced woman”).”
    Well, she knows how to shit test you. You don’t know how to pass. BTW notorious red flag on the experienced woman remark. Living vicariously. She is thinking of fucking (just not with you). She is probably even thinking of cheating (might have already). Has she gone on a girls night out?

    “A start feeling very, very tired and jaded of putting up with her crap and excuses for not having sex! She treats me more and more like a personal “errand boy”, seeking me out only when she needs some help for something in her own life!”
    Errands which you probably do and she throws out a few morsels of scarce sex to keep you in thrall…

    “Sex is scarce (but, truly, when we do have sex, it is clearly FUN and ENJOYABLE for both of us! I still can make her cum hard, and I do enjoy fucking her!).”
    How nice.

    “I start considering going MGTOW, with only one problem: I ENJOY sex – and I can’t see myself withdrawing from women!”
    Why should you. There are plenty of women around.

    “2018 – Where am I now: Alpha 1.0 traits came back full time: lots of passive aggressiveness from my part and also from hers.”
    Lose the ego, passive aggressive isn’t an alpha trait.

    “We hardly have sex anymore. I’m seriously considering cheating on her with some high-class escort girl, just to fulfill my sex urges.”
    Yes, that will show her 😛
    More passive aggressive behavior, because that has been working wonderfully for you.
    Some RP people go for escorts, but from a different PoV. From your current situation it is probably a bad idea.
    Truly become someone worth fucking and work on being able to pick-up someone for free. Then decide if you want to have sex with someone that isn’t your wife. Acquiring those skills will be valuable whether there is a divorce or not.

    “And, naturally, I am now considering a divorce: already talked to two lawyers without her knowing.”
    Excellent! Get the papers ready either to do it when you want, or to do what I mentioned above when she tries to threaten you with it. Because it is very likely she will.

    “I took off my wedding ring for nearly 60 days now, but she didn’t make any comments about it.”
    Yes, that will show her 😛
    Oh wait, apparently it didn’t. Passive aggressive. Use it or not because you want to or not, don’t be expectant on her reaction. Outcome independent you are not!

    “I’ve also noticed that she only wears her wedding ring when we have mutual friends or family over; on other days, I don’t see her wearing any ring, but I also don’t comment on it (some of this is due to her work requirements, which due to sanitary reasons, she is obliged to take off any jewelry from her hands).”
    The work requirements haven’t changed, and yet you noticed this now? Did her behavior regarding this change or not? And do you care (hint: yes you do)?

    “A month ago we went on a vacation trip together as a family, things were still tense between us, haven’t had sex in a couple of months, then, out of nowhere, on one of the nights in our room, she starts initiating sex with me, which ended up being just good sex, but definitely not great sex! The very next day, she starts with shit testing again, and were back to square one.”
    This is something you obviously don’t understand well. Shit tests are a feature, not a bug. Until you are good enough to really satisfy her hypergamous doubt consistently, she will feel the urge to test how good you are. This will be more acute when she wants to have sex (around ovulation perhaps) and after sex to ease her doubt “did I just fuck a beta” and when you fail them right after having sex you confirm to her that she did. Gosh man, she just fucked you, use the feel good hormones to chill and pass the shit tests at least then!

    If you are not good enough and she isn’t shit testing, you are in much worse state. She doesn’t care any more, because she knows you are not good enough. She is going through the motions and actively looking to get out of the relationship.

    “The thing that holds me back from divorcing: my lovely 6 year old son!”
    You have to be outcome independent even there, or else she can control you through him.

    “He is the light of my life! I still CAN NOT see myself walking way from him! He is a happy and thriving young boy, who loves rock music, silly cartoons, video games, and fast cars just like his old man! This is a child who spontaneously says he LOVES me, and that I’m his BEST FRIEND! I do not have the heart to walk out on him, even if I get to see him every day! It would surely CRUSH HIS HEART to see his daddy walk out of his home! And, it would crush my heart too!”
    How sweet, (apparently) unconditional love! Just what you want from your wife but she is so mean, she doesn’t give it to you. Beta trait.

    Become outcome independent. You need to be your MPoO – not even your son should be the MPoO. It will be better for everyone (son including) if you put yourself first (Disclaimer: I don’t have kids, but I think a lot of fathers here would agree with this).

    “– Too long;didn’t read (TLDR): I’m a guy in his early 40s, married for nearly 9 years, have a 6 yo son. I’m a classic needy Alpha, and I’m going through a shit storm with my wife (meaning very, very poor sex life and lots of shaming and shit testing). I feel extremely tired and jaded from her shit tests and I’m strongly considering divorce, but do not have the heart to hurt my son’s feelings!”
    Why do you care about the shaming?
    She shit tests because she needs to know how good you are. Don’t take it personally.
    She also treats you like shit because she can. You put up with it, partly because you don’t have the heart to hurt your son’s feelings. And she knows you’ll put up with it because a) you told her (when you begged her to come back when she threatened divorce) and more importantly because b) you show her everyday you are a low value beta by failing shit tests all the time.

    Show her you have options. If those options aren’t other women (at this stage I’m unsure you would be ready for picking up other women – but you could learn)… At least they are that having no wife is better than having a bad wife.

    Get the divorce papers ready. It will help with your outcome independence.

    “Any thoughts? Have the passive aggressiveness gone too far to fix in my case?”
    It isn’t too late to fix yourself.
    Might be too late to fix your marriage, but you shouldn’t care regardless. You can only work on yourself and you should do it for yourself, not for your marriage, for your wife, or for your son.

    “Do you guys thinks I can regain frame after so many years of mutual frustration?”
    You can build frame (regain… Not sure you ever really had it).
    Might be too late for her to willingly enter your frame, but you shouldn’t care regardless.

    “Or should I just suck it up and divorce her ass, no fucks given”
    Not up to us to decide for you.

    “and go MGTOW with some fuck buddies on the side!?”
    Become good enough to get some fuck buddies on the side, even if you decide not to while you are married.

  36. @ All

    Thanks – He’s not a personal friend but he is one of the guys that encouraged me to publish my book. It’s not a literary masterpiece but it did do me a look of good to go through that so I am grateful to him and a few others for that.

    I’d rather see most men come through this and with two minor tweaks in his actions he will but these will be major changes in his mindset so they’re going to be a difficult pill for him to swallow.

    I’ll let him cam down and pick the phone up to him when our time zones collide.

    @SJF – I haven’t not died of malignant melanoma yet.. I just haven’t died from the ones I knew about. The search continues for Atypical moles etc. every now and then but who knows when I’ll check out. The only thing that real is now, the past is history, and tomorrow hasn’t happened yet. Thats more or less how I try to live.

  37. IAS – nice breakdown.

    Palma – I’m lolling this is a guy you know… haha. Tell him to get his ass in gear.

  38. @Sentient

    So the thing is I’ve NEVER gone after another mans wife. In fact the opposite.

    However things change and I’m at the stage in my life and in terms of women where I don’t want to own it, or rent it, but just joy ride it. Then return it to its owner for repair and maintenance so I can joy ride it again next week / month.

    I need 9-10 of these I think then I could reduce activity to just replacing dropped / broken plates.

    For some time now I’ve thought that what I want is the wife (wives) of a rich man (men) who is (are) bored and getting nothing at home but otherwise totally happy with her lot and doesn’t want to change that / or her situation hasn’t matured to the point where she can cash out with maximum prizes.

    There are an awful lot of those in my old stamping ground where I used to live and when out and about a lot have either told me or made it obvious. A lot of the time they’re just too fat so I don’t want these. But others weren’t but I didn’t play.

    So there is a demographic (a diamond seam) of women that are hot as fuck with Husbands that make high 6 digits or seven++ AND are working towards some sort of earn out. So for those that don’t know that means they are anticipating a large payout but this is probably years ahead and not soon. These women are hanging in for that and bored shitless.

    They hang out together in clumps in several bars and I am adept at opening the sets of them using Palma Sailor shotgun / bat to the fence game. My older wingman (60) and 5’4” but well presented etc.. is adept at getting serially monogamish with them. You’d have to see it to believe it but he gets married 38 year olds that are 4 inches taller.

    Plus – their husbands drop them off and collect them so that he can fuck them. Yup you heard that right. But it ALWAYS blows up. He finds it fun but I just couldn’t handle the grief he gets.

    The problem is that they become totally loved up with him and want to move in with him so he’s always gaming new ones. He is HNW but also leverages FUN from his money – Ferrari’s etc.. for the record he is nowhere near as rich as the husbands but enough that the women envisage a life with him would be better. So that’s his ‘problem’.

    FWIW my nickname within these groups is either “bad palmasailor” or “dirty palmasailor” that’s how they refer to me.

    I know categorically that the key to this is that they need to feel totally secure that I won’t go nutter and blow up their world.

    Where I have plates now, one of them was an ex girlfriend that went nuts. She comes to play when her boyfriend is away. She knows exactly what she is going to get, she is also totally confident it won’t blow up. We don’t have each other’s phone number so we make the arrangements by e mail.

    Another one who is also an ex crops up when she is bored with her BF (about 4 months in) and i fuck her arse with a condom.. she loves it, never does it with him and obviously because it’s anal she’s not being unfaithful.. but you knew that I’m sure.

    So that’s what I want to do. Convert members of the former group to members of the latter group without falling into the trap my wingman does each time.

    Even writing this down methodically has led me to my own conclusions but observations would be welcome.

    PS the comfort thing is working incredibly well / played it last night but this post is already TLDR

  39. Palma

    Well if that’s what you want… I thought you wanted younger girls like Scribb…

    Doesn’t matter

    Two words – Secret Society

    “They hang out together in clumps in several bars and I am adept at opening the sets of them using Palma Sailor shotgun / bat to the fence game. ”

    Yeah I know these clumps. There is one place by me I can go by a table of them most nights and they are just gagging for it. One time one of them turned to the table while I was chatting and said “you see what I mean!” And they were all nodding. This is one who’s thrown herself at me nearly begging.

    But…

    “FWIW my nickname within these groups is either “bad palmasailor” or “dirty palmasailor” that’s how they refer to me.”

    This is what you have to be aware of. It’s good to have an alpha rep but you need to establish discretion in these settings. For two reasons

    1. The risk of “blowing up” isn’t just from you. It’s equally from her gossiping girlfriends. That is a huge risk she can’t control for. My first married pull clued me into this right off… As I went to kiss her she shook her head slightly. Then whispered “not here. Get two glasses of wine and come find me on the roof”… Then she went about saying so long to her friends. And 10 minutes later I slipped away.

    2. If you rush into them hot to trot you will end up with a shoal of fish situation… So close but just out of grasp. Because they want to be chased and validated in front of their social circle. Especially these kinds… Group dynamics yo… And they will chum the water for you to chase…

    Your buddy’s problem is he shows them too much Beta Bux they start to think of monkey branching. Women are not smart they see some flash and think spigot is on all the time.

    My being married is a good prop to dissuade them of any monkey branching notions.

    Good luck.

  40. @Sentient

    I want to be able to consistently pick up whatever is there if I decide I want it without resorting to ‘boyfriend game’.

    Younger is better but I want a rotation and my life exposes me to totally different sets at different times at totally different locations.

    My buddy knows that’s what he’s doing and it gets him what he wants so I leave him alone with it.

    Secret society – noted – thanks.

  41. @Sentient

    by the way

    “My being married is a good prop to dissuade them of any monkey branching notions.”

    I have a very good Rich Alpha but blue pill friend in an outwardly happy marriage.

    Women at the tennis club are often overheard asking ‘whats his marriage like?’

    I’m sure you know that.

  42. (lol I just typed that in and reloaded comments before sending to notice Sentient has covered most of it)

    @Palma

    Your friend triggers the Provider (BB) algorithm in their hindbrain. Maybe at the beginning he pings off as a Lover (AF), especially if they’re bored at home and he has an adventurous/edgy aura to it. But over time, their hindbrain collects more intel about his behavioral patterns, core beliefs, moral code, fears, needs, lifestyle, resources etc. He doesn’t disqualify himself as a Provider… it’s still on the table… and they want it ALL (incl. fried ice). More fitness tests, more Provider snippets and it’s easy to slip into that role.

    YaReally had a piece on that:

    disqualify yourself as a Provider. Don’t flaunt your money, job, suits, etc. Don’t come off like you have Provider value. If a girl knows you aren’t a potential Provider, she can only view you as a potential Lover […]. It’s not just external Provider traits like money and suits etc, it’s internal Provider traits too…like don’t use the word “date”, push for the Same Night Lay instead of the #-close Day2, talk about relationships and how you have commitment issues and hate clingy girls and your ex was crazy and how this girl better not fall in love with you ’cause you’ll break her heart etc. Like remove any possibility in her mind that you have Provider potential.
    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/slut-eye/#comment-715335

    Another interesting thing (and I guess Sentient has observed that too) is that a wedding ring works great as a disqualifier. So you could be an absolute asshole who doesn’t want commitment or a guy with a woman (family) they can’t replace – they’ll never be as important. Of course you can fuck it up in both scenarios and go too beta on them.

    The absolute asshole bit… watch out how you’re perceived by the Hivemind. If you go this path too overt, it will be too risky for them to engage beyond casual flirting. Cutthroat girlfriends. Secret society again (one of the rules: everyone has fun or no one has it).

    Another thing: the amount of time you spend with a girl IS a message too. Time is the most valuable resource and if you can freely spend it on her (instead of doing other things)…. what does it tell her? The medium is the message = Cat-o-nese 101.

    Watch out for ‘beta bait’ too. They will try to elicit your Provider behavior anyway. Part of biology, can’t cheat that. Better find a way of enjoying fitness tests… or look for a new girl more frequently.

    Finally, a bit of unsolicited advice: ask yourself if this solutions (social circle with older women) is what your dick really wants. I mean, in principle you could go after younger girls and build a system around that (see fleezer or scribblerg). Burden of performance, challenges, hunt, hard work, easy options, buffers, ego, rejections and all that. Up to you.

  43. BTW @Sentient @Palma, great feedback upthread, much appreciated. Exactly the pointers I needed, thanks!

  44. You know you want the 18 year old girls really, Palma! 🙂
    PS – You in the UK I take it?

  45. @Scars

    Correct, I do. But as a larger agenda I want to reliably get what I want consistently.

    If all that’s available is a milf because I have travelled wherever and I want it on the rotation for a bit then I want to be able to get in on my terms.

    I am in the UK. You?

  46. you won’t get much ‘critiquing’ from me! haha. I’m a relatively unsuccessful newbie and it sounds like you’ve banged more girls than most of us here combined so you should probably be the one giving the tips!

  47. @All

    Hairy Navel has gone, I’ll spare you the details but you know what happened.

    Thank you all for your efforts.

    I have probably given out 7-8 copies of Rational Male and none on the men have spoken to me since.

    That gentlemen is the scale of the societal programming and the challenge we face.

  48. palmasailo

    Hairy Navel has gone, I’ll spare you the details but you know what happened.

    His eyes hurt too much?

    His tl;dr was like old times. Like a comment too big for the box that turned into a series of comments on MMSL back when Athol still ran it. Or something off of a subthread at Spearhead back before Welmer zeroed it. Or…or….or…or. Any of several places, and the story isn’t new.

    Well, as long as he holds onto the book(s) you sent him, there’s a chance.

  49. @AR

    I think that the major problem we have is that we are teaching people to look externally for solutions and to lay blame.

    One way or another I’ve always had the mindset that the solutions, blame (and credit) for your circumstances are found in the mirror.

    Difficult sometimes, but that’s where it is.

    Without internalising that your life just doesn’t improve and what we are seeing is a spiral of external blame as people’s lives get worse and worse because they refuse to take responsibility.

    They’re hung up on entitlement and virtue signalling rather than getting on with shit to improve themselves and pay the bills.

    By the time you’re in your mid 30’s shit starts to get real but it’s too late.

  50. @Palmasailor,

    “Hairy Navel has gone, I’ll spare you the details but you know what happened.”

    Nah, man, don’t spare us the details. Field reports are for details. How exactly did it go down? Please describe the words, mannerisms, etc. Do you know if he even read the comments after his initial “I’m done with this shit” comment?

  51. @Newlyaloof

    Well he says he didn’t go back after his comment.

    I called him and left a voice message asking him to take the weekend off Han out with the boys, clear his head and come back on Monday because the commenters had been through what he has and though it was going to be tough he could still get through it.

    For the record he has a hot wife who falls into submission the moment he even gets it half right so I am convinced “HE” can turn it. Probably 3 months work.

    I then got another epic TLDR email thanking me but blaming women / society / the Russians / Elon musk / the moon landings / Everything else for the “problem with women”.

    Hopefully others have learned something.

  52. He did however thank me and wish me well. That’s more than anyone else has done after I give them the book though!

  53. ^^ exactly. He’s in his cave licking his wounds. When he comes out I’ll go again if he’s ready.

    @ Sentirent – in other news I’ve just got home from walking into the town centre and I walked past the woman who messaged me saying she just wasn’t comfortable etc..

    This time I’m properly dressed, shirt shoes jacket pocket square & haircut.

    So I smiled and said “hi” – kiss on cheek

    Her “did you go last night” (to the other social)

    Me “yep – the usual social rejects – I didn’t stay long”

    her: Touched my arm – “look I’m so sorry I didn’t want to pre judge you”

    Me “Really no problem it’s fine”

    her: hair behind ear “I’ve had some odd experiences lately and perhaps I should give you a chance?”

    Me: “Look it’s fine par for the course – catch you soon..”

    Interesting. I did everything else right but on the night it was seriously the comfort thing that I got wrong.

  54. Palma

    No doubt.

    Calibration too. Like your FR on the other post after the “sucked off” (I lolled) and she got up a good skill to have is to walk a comment back.

    Just a smile, a touch in the arm, something like “I’m just messing with you” and shift into a story or something like ” so tell me what are up to tonight” etc.

    It’s a game. Back and forth, finding balance. A lot of the time an over the top comment, they like it but they are “required” to act offended etc. When you roll back a bit she can play that part and then you go forward. Often they will mention something later about the initial “offensive” comment that it was part of what they were attracted to.

    To get good always try and recover a set. Good practice.

  55. @PalmaSailor

    “For the record he has a hot wife who falls into submission the moment he even gets it half right so I am convinced “HE” can turn it. Probably 3 months work.”

    That’s the shame there. Harry Navel does have lots of potential from what he described. And he’s not going to get where he wants to with the Red Pill Awareness but retain Blue Pill ideals, Athol Kay style of game. Every single time he doesn’t respond properly to a shit test, he is letting his wife down. He probably can’t spot a shit test for what it is in real time because of his Blue Pill Idealism. And he needs to get to the point where he uses them to his advantage. Not avoid them, not merely pass them. (six years ago, it took me a whole year to first even recognize shit tests from my wife, then understand them, then respond properly to them. But then it became more natural and competence.)

    I think you are right about the three month thing, but only after “he flips a switch” and really gets what Red Pill Awareness and Game is all about (would take him a few months to do that first). Right now he has no clue about what he doesn’t know. And needs to read up on Stoicism.

    https://tonsplace.wordpress.com/2017/04/18/game-dog-game-humility-and-who-to-trust-how-far-to-trust-him/

    <blockquote<"I think this recognition of our limits and the limits of others is the heart and soul of real world humility. Biblical humility. It’s healthy and natural vs the your a worthless worm version of humility that is preached today. A lot of men carry heavy burdens that would break some other man, while that some other man carries a burden that would break others. It’s the way of things.

    This trust issue is another reason I lean toward a heavy dose of Stoicism. We can only control how we react to life not the world around us. By all means embrace deep masculine friendships. Go out and do ballys shit as part of a team but have realistic expectations about yourself and then men around you." —SFCTon

    I came across that essay by sfcTon when looking back over a comment thread I searched and found here. About how much men can be pushed to come around:

    “At what point does advice sustain dysfunction rather than allievate it? How to, for example, help a guy stuck at a RP stage of grief…and get on with it, without addicting him to the self-serving introspection? –EhIntellect

    https://therationalmale.com/2017/05/17/state-control/comment-page-3/#comment-198610

    Read through the comments back and forth from EhIntellect and I back in May 2017.

    Harry Navel is caving in the face of “Resistance”. A masculine life is not lived without resistance.

    In that podcast the host mentioned guys running into invisible barriers in their path. Only newbies without awareness and mastery hit those invisible barriers. And then whine about it. Like a fly trying to bust down a window (the invisible barrier), when there is an open door adjacent to to it with the path to freedom. Often there is that open door next to the window, but it takes awareness of what the problem (invisible barrier) actually is. And the skill to know (yourself) that that the door exists.

    I’d suggest he get a different avatar name than Harry Navel, come back here and try again to understand what he’s not getting. Put his ego aside. And try again “to get” Red Pill and married red pill game. There’s been plenty of men on Married Red Pill reddit that found success in staying to the red pill script. (me personally, I never participated in commenting there, but read all the sidebar material and red lots of butt-hurt comments by newbies).

    Life’s too short to roam the Earth with masculine sexual frustration while wanting to be married. He needs to turn his frustrations into fun, successful game. (Of course it wouldn’t hurt to have mentors he can trust to turn his pussy attitude around. Which exactly why the manosphere was invented…).

    I was in his shoes six years ago, but took up red pill game, and followed it’s script. And things worked out great in terms of me getting where I wanted. Game works. But not without taking the Red Pill.

  56. @Sentient / IRL

    So IRL sent me this link on secret society.

    https://bristollair.com/2008/inner-game/nature-reality/secret-society/

    Just as a first observation my plate no.1 that comes to fuck when her bf is away doesn’t insist on a condom. That’s mad right? Especially when she used to in the early days we were dating.

    But the entire interaction with her is congruent with secret society rules.

    So moving on to the “I’m not comfortable girl” that I over cooked without enough comfort and has now come back suggesting she should give me a chance.

    I pulled and spiked on the night but blew it with not enough comfort so her initial response on my approach for a date was to blow me out.

    I ignored the blow out (ZFG) for 7 days and her hamster flew possibly resulting in ‘non buyers remorse’

    Left it a week and went back and disqualified her as not being in the 0.01% of women that get me. She apologised again.

    She moved back in with huge IOI today with kino, preening and overtly saying she should give me the benefit of the doubt. (They resort to overt communication as a last resort)

    But I laughingly pushed her away. (Push pull)

    It would be easy at this point to pull her in via conventional means and get the lay which would fast lead her into BF GF territory I’m not interested in.

    I want another plate.

    SO

    I’m going to give secret society game a go the next time I see her.

    Is there a script for that beyond saying something like “I was going to hang out with a girlfriend tonight but her boyfriend came home early and blew it so I decided not to waste the shower”

    And “I just can’t be micromanaged by women in my life? Etc..

    Then proceed as usual?

  57. @SJF

    The thing is he’s in his cave with a boulder over the door.

    He has to left there until he comes out in his own time and confront himself.

    Yes it’s a shame. But he isn’t out of time until the shit tests stop. Counting down 10,9,8…….

  58. Palma

    I think you should examine your mental models…

    via conventional means and get the lay which would fast lead her into BF GF territory I’m not interested in.

    What are “conventional means”? And why would a lay have to move into BF/GF territory?

    “Secret Society” is a mental model, a mindset and ultimately a display of “just getting it”… Nothing more. “Secret society” game is just really good game. “Just getting it” is really good game. If you “just got it” all the time it would move smoothly to the lay, because you are speaking Cat-o-nese… when we don’t ‘just get it” it invariably means we got some dog language/logic/processing issue…

    This here:

    her: hair behind ear “I’ve had some odd experiences lately and perhaps I should give you a chance?”

    Me: “Look it’s fine par for the course – catch you soon..”

    How would a guy who “just got it” respond?

  59. palma
    I then got another epic TLDR email thanking me but blaming women / society / the Russians / Elon musk / the moon landings / Everything else for the “problem with women”.

    He’s still in anger phase. Someone somewhere somehow done gone and messed up his woman so someone else gotta pay. Immature and counterproductive, but there it is. Many men have gone through that, he’s nothing special or unique.

    One thing he could do with that anger is put on The Glasses and intensely pour over red pill materials, starting with Rollo’s book you gave him. Plus that anger properly restrained and directed would no doubt make him just a bit scary to his wife with good results.

    Want to mess with his head? Do a search on “Book of Proverbs” and “contentious”. Anonymous Age 60-something used to post quotes at Spearhead, Dalrock’s and maybe here, like “Better a tent on the roof than a house with a contentious woman”. That’s from something like 2,500 years ago. I can’t speak for any other man, but reading those quotes from the Iron Age made two things real clear:

    1. It’s not just me. Men have had this issue with women for thousands of years of recorded history.

    2. It’s not just “now”. It’s a feature of women to be managed, not a bug to be extirpated.

    It takes time to accept that women are not men with boobs. Some men never get it. Navel is actually pretty close, but as you pointed out he has to become consistent, and part of that lies in recovering a busted situation. Really there isn’t that much difference abstractly in recovering a busted set in a club and recovering a busted evening with a wife.

    But pissing his anger all over other men who are trying to help with the obvious? Total waste of time/effort. Just got done with some of that at Dalrock’s.

    Some men would rather wallow in their predictable misery than do something new to improve their situation.

  60. palmasailor
    But he isn’t out of time until the shit tests stop.

    Not necessarily, remember HABD’s “guard dog spinup”? Navel could be heading for that.

  61. Yup well I could have just closed it there and then but I’m playing with it at the moment. We were 50 yards from my front door, its Friday pm here, I could have bought her back for coffee, escalated as normal and banged her. N=N+1. No problem.

    But I don’t want N+1, I want another plate thats on the rotation.

    I’m not ‘just doing’ what I normally do because I’ve established that I am not running the comfort part of the script properly so I’m questioning everything, and the whole point of this process is to improve the consistency in my game not get an individual lay.

    ‘And why would a lay have to move into BF/GF territory?’

    So far they push it that way every time. It goes on for a bit, they want exclusivity, I say no, they dump me (Black Dragon calls this LSNFTE) which is a standard tactic. Then they come back to fuck me again. It goes round in circles – for years.

    OK I’ve answered my own question. Should have just fucked her and then put her in rotation.

    I had wondered if secret society ‘game’ was different somehow.. but perhaps not.

  62. @Palma
    Just as a first observation my plate no.1 that comes to fuck when her bf is away doesn’t insist on a condom. That’s mad right? Especially when she used to in the early days we were dating.

    Consistent with AF/BB and Rollo, no? Condoms are quite a recent invention. Evo-bio über alles.

    Is there a script for that beyond saying something like “I was going to hang out with a girlfriend tonight but her boyfriend came home early and blew it so I decided not to waste the shower”

    And “I just can’t be micromanaged by women in my life? Etc..

    Hold your horses. You’re trying to apply dog logic. In Cat-o-nese, it’s too close to “negotiated desire relationship” territory.

    Demonstrate, don’t explicate. Which doesn’t mean she needs to see you with other girls. Rather, all your actions and subcomms should be congruent with your decision.

    Don’t go “I told you explicitly upfront” on her. Instead, none of your actions should mislead her to believe she can have more. That’s it. Too much dog logic and you won’t get consistent results (higher flake rate when you start with talking about it).

    Secret Society communication is in Cat-o-nese. Animal kingdom, right?

    Look at this clip and analyse how and what is communicated (nb. her character is married):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TzAJdCNpZw

    That’s the level of communication you want to aim for. Don’t explicate.

    Run proper MM. Probe how receptive she is (Don Johnson’s character above does it several times) and if she keeps chasing. Lead the interaction. Done. All in Cat-o-nese (that’s what you should focus on when watching Mystery’s infield Sentient linked above, i.e. what’s her buying temp, is she submitting, how does he control the frame etc.)

    The same principles apply to FBs. She plays along and you’re more receptive. She doesn’t (or does something to get more out of your STR/LTR) and you take a step back. In individual interactions or on a long term scale. Push pull at various levels. Women are like kids, kids are like women – your attention (good or bad) vs time out.

    Logic/talking about it is only a tool in the toolbox. It doesn’t mean you need to use it every time you meet a girl. Just when required (exactly like in parenting). Focus on Cat-o-nese. Be that guy and there won’t be a need to talk about being that guy.

  63. “OK I’ve answered my own question. Should have just fucked her and then put her in rotation.”

    She can’t be a plate until she’s been fucked, right?

    And “secret society” just getting it, part of that is understanding they may come and go. But you are cool. All good feelings. You’re the sex guy, not the rom-com guy.

    Trouble is when you want to rom-com… lol But that’s down the road.

  64. “She can’t be a plate until she’s been fucked, right?”

    I find that the real sex starts on the 3rd fuck.

    You can’t escalate to the sort of sex it needs to be, or I want before that.

    Hence I’ve stopped bothering with FNL’s.

  65. “You can’t escalate to the sort of sex it needs to be, or I want before that.”

    This is the comfort thing again…

    You should read The Thin Man and PureEvil on sedfast. Thin Man has a system for building comfort over day2-3 and geared towards Over 30’s women…

    https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/general/13706-the-over-33-technique-thread?p=202087#post202087

    PureEvil hates LMR and does a day 2-3 to get the kind of immersive sex he wants… can’t find the thread atm.

    I mean Mystery was the same, he wanted women really really into him. In love… Hence the 7 hour thing. so much comfort and trust being built up. Of course this is also at the risk of slipping up lol…

    But really if you are doing game right FNL sex is to me the most mind blowing… it’s the cherry on top of being swept up and “it just happening”… just raw.

  66. Yes ref FNL sex – exactly – they go berserk and do everything. But they feel like total sluts in the morning and they blow out..

    Thats why I work up over 3 lays. Build enough comfort that they can be totally filthy and still come back for more.

    They’re not REALLY like that, JUST when they’re in the bedroom with ME.

  67. “But they feel like total sluts in the morning and they blow out..”

    comfort… a little aftercare. yareally’s egg mcMuffin…

    Here is the link to PureEvil

    https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/hall-of-fame/14327-3-day-game-how-to-get-best-first-time-sex-with-no-lmr-and-how-to-fuck-that-particular-girl

    You need to register to view. You might want to it’s free.

    If not here are some excerpts from an old post:

    And – I hesitate to point this out because it is opposite of “Be Ruthless” mind training, but I am trusting you are astute enough to not make it a buffer – there is NOTHING wrong with Day 2 etc. set up… Just keep in mind that this is not anymore an expectation than SNL… I is an OPTION.

    I thought of you the other day at Sedfast, looking at this old post by PureEvil:

    I’m a fan of various options, I’ve found every type of game and relationship setup comes with its own unique set of pros and cons, so having more game/relationship-management options allows you to tailor the various pros and cons to whatever your current preferences may be.

    3-day game is the opposite of fast game. Rather than playing secret society game to take a girl down as fast as possible, you play blue pill game, using TIME, PACING, and SOCIAL NORMS to your advantage to SET YOURSELF UP FOR THE BEST FIRST-TIME SEX POSSIBLE, where’s she pleasing you exactly as you like to be pleased (instead of you battling her LMR). This style of game is also effective on girls you’d normally screen out for a “fast seduction,” allowing you to have a greater chance at landing “that particular girl.” If you can get that “particular girl” on a “3rd date”, her pussy is yours.

    Risks / Rewards to this approach:

    – Risks (see the “player/provider” section at the end as well): she may not want the followup date, so a sex opportunity may be blown. More opportunity to disqualify yourself with bad game. Higher risk of being seen as “provider” or “boyfriend” (which doesn’t matter for getting laid on date 3, but can matter in the ensuing relationship after that point.)
    – Rewards: personally tailored her-pleasing-you first-time sex with no LMR. A logistical method for taking down “particular” girls who would get screened out for fast sex but you still would like to bang.

    There exists a “blue pill” dating standard in many parts of the western world** called the “three date rule,” which is a societal understanding that sex is expected on the third date: *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-date_rule

    **If the three date rule is not a part of your societal standards, then this may not work for you.

    Here’s a great article discussing it:
    *http://www.nocommitment.com/what-is-…/#.VO9o2yjdkqZ

    “Since the 3 Date Rule doesn’t exist on paper and there is no signed contract telling you and your date that you MUST have sex on the third date, it’s accuracy is just hearsay. It’s up to the two of you to make your own decisions about the timing of sex in your relationship.

    However, since most people have heard of the 3 Date Rule, it does set up an expectation from the very first second you ask a girl on a date. While many people want to, and do, have sex after their first or second dates, by the time the third date rolls around it’s nearly a foregone conclusion that, if you haven’t yet had sex, you’re going to tonight.”

    Here’s how it works: [see link]

    https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/hall-of-fame/14327-3-day-game-how-to-get-best-first-time-sex-with-no-lmr-and-how-to-fuck-that-particular-girl

    Thin Man had his spin on it in the comments… a similar game to Wala’s.

    My Game is a variant on this… I did not even realize it was controversial.

    Day one- Warm stranger approach… at a social or business function… Direct invitation to instant date. I am NEVER explicit that it is a date, could be business, could just be chow. Isolate… Verbal game… Emotional connection with sexual frames. Analyze woman’s scenario style. Woman agree to the meet about 80% of the time… We have day 1 sex about 5-8% of the time. This only happens when the instadate runs long with a passion girl. Logistics are the challenge.

    Day Two- Drinks logistically close to my place… at a restaurant with a bar. Meet at the bar kino at the bar… This gives me options If the vibe at the bar is good… This is about 60% of the time, suggest dinner, continue verbal game and set stronger sex frames over dinner, then bounce to my place for sex… Or if the vibe at the bar is great (25% of the time for me) bounce home for sex and late night snack after… Or if the vibe at the bar is off… Decide if it is the vibe or if it is just not a good day for sex for her… If the vibe is off bounce to another bar… If it is just not her day… Tired, menstrual etc… claim time constant and end the meet in 30 minutes or less… this happens 15% of the time or less.

    Day Three- This deeply depends on my interest level. If I am very interested in the woman this is an invitation to dinner at my place… If she agrees its on, if not its over. If I am kind of interested I will often do nothing… If she calls me its on. This happens more often then you might think… Sometimes after a few months have passed. I have a number of woman in this kind of holding pattern at any given time…

    https://therationalmale.com/field-reports-comment-page-2-comments/comment-page-29/#comment-205105

  68. @Sentient

    I summon the spirit of HABD…. ohhhhmmmmm

    lol…got a tingle in the force…lol…

    you and IRL and AR and SJF have been giving palmasailor great advice… and while i disagree with his characterization, i’m pretty sure we all know that it was me he doesn’t want weighing in on his situ… and bc he asked, i’m respecting that request… bc even if he doesn’t understand it, i really do want him to be ((more)) successful with girls…

    as far as Hairy Navel… he has to hit enough of a bottom to realize that his current approach to his life isn’t working to get him what he wants… but that might not happen if things don’t get bad ‘enough’… and he needs to have at least the idea that ((he)) can turn it around… palma giving him those books, and Hairy Navel not completely ghosting palma, is a good start… at least the seed has been planted… but the concept of triage exists for a reason… and as AR points out it might be a guard dog situ spinning up…

    but even then, we can only show him the door/path, he has to walk through the door by/for himself…

    good luck!

  69. Wow, I missed IAS’ breakdown earlier. That was awesome and on target I AS.

    Also missed Palma’s comment on Hairy baby encouraging him to write his book.

    That’s telling. I’ll tell you why. From reading Palma’s red pill and red pill parenting a son book: PalmaSailor has a great, self-taught masculine talent stack. A natural by his own hand along with admirable business mentors (for his profession).

    Palma’s a poor role model for the blue pill pussy that Hairy Navel is. I mean, he should look to Palma’s Alpha masculine virtues, but he can’t read Palma’s book and replicate his successes. They are goal directed differently. Hairy obviously wants married red pill, the opposite of Palma.

    Excellent book, Palma.

  70. Little teaser from Thin Man’s link

    Opportunistic Meet: I Sat next to a woman on the Acela late afternoon… Typical NY-8 conservative well-dressed vaguely Middle Eastern features (turned out she was half Lebanese.) I smiled light eye flirted and proceeded to read the Times. I noticed she was off and on with OKC on her phone most of the ride. As we neared NY I asked if she was trying to get a date on OKC and if it worked for her… Instant speech, “guys suck, they are all animals, dick for brains morons etc…” Perfect! I listened patiently to her shit test… Told her the problem was her taste in guys and that she was looking for them online… I told her it was much better to just let a good looking man just find her on Amtrak. I took her to dinner straight from Penn Station. I asked if she liked beef, “Great I know a place.” And then just took her to a quiet private side street restaurant (with great logistics) without further explanation. “Do you mind if I order…” I order both dinners…(Important to gently question while you do this… I’d like to start with the oysters… Then the fillet for you and the rib eye for me?) During dinner I get the emotional life story…Broken engagement with boss ha… She broke it though, because he was an indecisive AFC that preferred fantasy football to seducing women. I talked about how I was a different kind of man… I initiated a conversation more or less about seduction… secret society… Set my non-monogamous frame. She sub-communicated a strong, I want to be swept away with passion vibe (see womans sexual scenarios below)… When dinner was over I asked if she would like to come up to my apartment and have a cigar on the terrace. She had mentioned she liked them during our conversation… She ended up having the cigar with me at 2AM while wearing only my Kimono after an evening of forceful sex.

    worth reading.

    https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/general/13706-the-over-33-technique-thread?p=202087#post202087

  71. “Deeeeeep”

    approach
    neg
    dhv
    qualify
    vulnerability
    bang

    and there it is.

    “you traverse the stairs with such great poise”

    lol.

    i bet this guy has been to a renaissance fair.

    maybe even in some kind of costume.

    excellent timeless work though.

    how fame can work against a man in this series:

    approach: she know of you and approaches. backwards. bad start.

    neg: skipped. your value is already higher. this is bad. dog must know owner will strike

    dhv: already done. she already has formed idea of who you are. you already lost narrative control but gained access to much larger pool of women. in that scenario i see her/them as having frame as she is on mission and you can be “had”. bad deal.

    qualify: since you already famous, this qualification will probably be based largely on looks. oops. what about CH “ignore her beauty”. famous guy “choosing” her is bigger validation than she worth. he gains sex access largely based on narrative he doesn’t control and she may or may not perform well but she is assured bump in social “value”. she wins no matter what, not to mention all the back end potential for her (FRA, preggers, etc)

    vulnerability: why show any? in 2018 its everywhere. so much weakness. only weakness I show her is for the super tight super wet. but i’m already displaying this when i approach. we all know what up. i agree with “we’re both human beings” part, but I can confirm i’m human without being vulnerable. many humans are emotionless killers. girls like this

    bang: she gets off on being wanted. she had expectation of validation and this was fulfilled. full catharsis for her.

    mystery is right to say coming in with lower value is the way. then everything works as intended.

    being non famous anon fuckboy affords excellent opportunities.

    i ask young ones open ended question: “how are you banging?”

    implies she is sport/exploration banging

    implies she is comfortable talking about fucking and her body

    implies i have experience with different bang scenarios

    implies i’m not on the face judgemental about girls who like to fuck

    if she says, “always protection. no exceptions.”, i know she makes exceptions and i will bareback her first time because she is probably only letting one other dude or maybe zero at that time because otherwise she wouldn’t be doing the protection stuff (looking for good d) because she can get so much validation/benefits without spreading so the spread has a reason(s)

    they like getting the nut. it’s good for them. they get used to having it. and they’re all on the pill. and the hamster lets them rationalize my “I’m squeaky clean” as having some kind of proof attached. lol

    a no-condom rule automatically separates you out. either she’s a cumrag who let anyone in (pass), or she really into you (a must for good screwing)

    no exceptions means exceptions. they don’t know any other way but to make rules and then break them for select few. risk = tingles and they’re tingle addicts.

    lots of mate sorting going on now

    happy hunting.

  72. Fuck it. The post is too good. If it is too long for you. Oh well!

    https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/general/13706-the-over-33-technique-thread?p=202087#post202087

    “The Thin Man’s Over 38 Seduction

    Before I get to what works for me I have a few observations that I think put the bullet points below in appropriate context. I have linked some key posts at various points, read the links they are helpful in making the points I am trying to make here. This thread started when I commented on a filed report (Linked here) where Tech was put off by a wave of qualification shit testing that I think is pretty instructive… and illustrates how this stuff works in a real world way.

    Consistent personal brand matters: This is a concept I adapted from Arden Leigh’s book The New Rules of Attraction. She was speaking to a female audience but the concept is universal. The basic Idea is that your dress, occupation, grooming, mode of transportation, interior decor, accent, fragrance, and choices of entertainment should send a consistent message. My own brand is very urbane, smooth, luxurious, creative with out being artsy, a mature man with great haircut, and a well cut jacket that hides a stealth hedonist. Kant uses a dark, poetic/artistic, mysterious brand to great effect. It is not what your brand is, it is that it is consistent. women want to be with intriguing men with something going on in their life… Be intriguing!

    Women in their 30s are very different in their relations with men than women in their 40s. This is just biology… The biological clock daddy hunter woman vs. the premenopausal “I just want to be me” woman;” they have very different imperatives… The other major variable is divorced women who have been there and done that vs. the never married women who’s inner Disney princess is still kind of intact. The below is for a single woman over 40+/- or or a divorced woman over 37+/-… I think an over 33 single, childless, woman with her baby clock ticking hard is a different creature entirely. So in my experience this is not an over 33 technique so much as an over 37-40 technique.

    There are two kinds of meets in mature woman game and they have completely different time tables. There are Opportunistic meets (fast) and Mechanistic meets (slower.) Opportunistic meets are when you find a woman on the train, in an airport or in the elevator. You are not really hunting just being a sexually open attractive male presence in the world, you feel a spark and instadate right then and there. Opportunistic meets are often SNLs. Mechanistic meets are conscious premeditated hunting situations that are scheduled in advance… The way I do them a day 2 is usually necessary… I do both kinds of meets.

    Below is a mini field report from late last summer that illustrates how the principals enumerated below are employed more quickly. The goal in an opportunistic day one or a Mechanistic day 2 in to create a flow to your bed that seems spontaneous but was actually pretty planed in advance. Part of the way this is accomplished is to create a context where she does not feel the need to try to be in charge. I don’t let her ask me for anything, because I don’t want her directing the activity… Deep down she does not want this either. I don’t want her up in her head, I don’t want to break the trance with a discussion of a bar tab, I don’t want her looking at the taxi meter… I want her to feel girly and feminine, like she is just being smoothly pulled along… No decisions necessary.

    Opportunistic Method Example Below:

    Opportunistic Meet: I Sat next to a woman on the Acela late afternoon… Typical NY-8 conservative well-dressed vaguely Middle Eastern features (turned out she was half Lebanese.) I smiled light eye flirted and proceeded to read the Times. I noticed she was off and on with OKC on her phone most of the ride. As we neared NY I asked if she was trying to get a date on OKC and if it worked for her… Instant speech, “guys suck, they are all animals, dick for brains morons etc…” Perfect! I listened patiently to her shit test… Told her the problem was her taste in guys and that she was looking for them online… I told her it was much better to just let a good looking man just find her on Amtrak. I took her to dinner straight from Penn Station. I asked if she liked beef, “Great I know a place.” And then just took her to a quiet private side street restaurant (with great logistics) without further explanation. “Do you mind if I order…” I order both dinners…(Important to gently question while you do this… I’d like to start with the oysters… Then the fillet for you and the rib eye for me?) During dinner I get the emotional life story…Broken engagement with boss ha… She broke it though, because he was an indecisive AFC that preferred fantasy football to seducing women. I talked about how I was a different kind of man… I initiated a conversation more or less about seduction… secret society… Set my non-monogamous frame. She sub-communicated a strong, I want to be swept away with passion vibe (see womans sexual scenarios below)… When dinner was over I asked if she would like to come up to my apartment and have a cigar on the terrace. She had mentioned she liked them during our conversation… She ended up having the cigar with me at 2AM while wearing only my Kimono after an evening of forceful sex.

    Thin Man’s Mechanistic Method for Mature Seduction:

    The advantage of the Mechanistic mode is it allows for organized sarging. I sarge every Tuesday morning from 7:15 AM to 10:30 AM. I have a weekly networking breakfast where I pull woman.

    1. If I am doing a mechanistic meet, I start in a non-sexual situation. I find the problem with a Tinder meet is it is sexually loaded… Everybody knows what you are doing there… Which creates self-consciousness and ASD. That said If online works for you I still think The named stages in bold below stages below can be adapted to your game. I sarge at business networking breakfasts, or a professional continuing education seminars, or a community board meeting or the like… You want her board… Women are less comfortable with boredom then men are. Introduce yourself and then isolate immediately. ASD is a form of self-consciousness… People are much less self-conscious when they are not in a group setting. I view Isolation as having 2 stages one (day 1 isolation) is for emotional connection, the other (day 2 isolation is for sex.)

    Here is what I do to approach and day 1 isolate:
    For me one of the ways to control AA is to consciously engineer the context of the approach. I usually approach women at professional business breakfasts, or conferences, or sometimes on train or plane. In other words I approach women who are not busy doing something else and are maybe a bit board, and who are already in a situation where striking up a conversation with a complete stranger is natural and expected. I usually say pretty much the same things the same way and they are pretty mundane openers. At a morning networking meeting, I amuse myself, deciding who I am going to pull and then wait for the moment at the end of the formal part of the meeting when everybody stands up, but before they start talking. I walk over to the woman and say why don’t we get out of here and get some real breakfast (the buffets at these meetings are usually stale and nasty) and you can tell me about… insert whatever business they are in or company they are from… She usually says yes if she is free because breakfast is non threatening.

    2. Have rock solid logistics at all times… Mature women get up in their heads very fast, and have an instinct to take charge if you hesitate… If you seem at all indecisive about what you are going to do next she will take charge and your frame is damaged. I know in advance where I am going to isolate. Gently take charge, do not ask her what she wants to do. Once she comes with you she is entering your world… This is part of her sexual script give it to her. Where you go needs to be interesting and congruent with your personal brand …I make it my business to know all of the good hotel breakfasts in Manhattan. I pick one close, and the minute we hit the sidewalk I tell her I know a good place and we are going there… Under no circumstances do I ask her where she would like to go. All of the places I use for this purpose are private, quiet and not crowded.

    3. Be verbal but not physical… Kino too soon with a mature woman and you will blow out… Women love talk… Talk… If she touches you first… It’s On… My game is extremely verbal I try to speak quietly in a low voice with allot of eye contact… I try to use an almost a hypnotic cadence. I use rich descriptions, colors, textures flavors and gentle self-deprecating humor.

    4. Get Her Talking: When we sit down I simply hand her my business card and of course she hands me hers, by doing this I get her number email etc… Smoothly. I wait until we have ordered and then always ask the same thing, how did you get into…insert whatever business they are in. Career stories are life stories so soon enough you hear about their education, then where they have lived, then exes, or divorces, and families. The transition to relationship talk from business talk is natural. Having a sober personal conversation where intimacies are revealed in a quiet and plush setting causes the social defenses to come down.

    5. The Shit Test: Expect to be potentially shit tested sometimes pretty hard… Some times more lightly This is an IOI and is good. This often comes in the form of a speech that goes like this,” men suck, they are all dick for brains apes, frat boy rapists, or worse fat Dockers wearing losers who care more about X-box then pussy, philandering husbands, lying SOBs. Evil Bosses etc…” The woman’s lifestyle magazines have practically pre-written the script… This is not drama, or about you, or anything but a test of your frame. I usually pass it by being calm firm but not un-sympathetic and totally non-defensive. I laugh gently… and poke fun at her attitude to polarize her. Be forceful but careful here, there is a fine line between sexy and sexist. Be sensitive to her level of polarization and bring her back to you and create intimacy and comfort by offering something true relevant and intimate about yourself.

    When a woman starts telling me what is wrong with men in general I get very excited! This is giving you an opportunity to show that you can handle her emotions… Full grown mature woman are complicated creatures most man can’t handle them… The women know this and hate it… and come to lose respect/attraction for men because of it. This is one of the reasons so many people get divorced in their late thirties and early forties. She wants to know if you can calmly pass her shit tests. If you can, it is a huge demonstration of value… Most guys are not good at this, it is a mark of distinction.

    6. The emotional connection: If you pass the shit test this is where she opens emotionally, because you have shown you can handle her emotions. This is it the secret sauce of middle age seduction… In Tech’s filed report he saw her sadness… She let him see it, she almost cried… If a woman cries about her inner pain in your presence it is a vast act of trust. Older woman have scar tissue its what makes them sexy. The African American Poet Carl Winslow wrote a poem I love about psychological scars and mature sex. Since ASD and LMR are related to trust. “Do I really trust you with the most sensitive, private, and delicate parts of myself or not?” When a woman trusts you enough to remove her social mask and starts to reveal her inner self, it is a form of disrobing. It is, in my opinion, the real first rung of the escalation ladder. If you get to this stage of the seduction, read her carefully, the hook point should be evident. As part of the exchange of intimacies I reveal something lightly sexual which generally leads to sex talk. The woman, who does not think she is on a date… Its breakfast who the hell dates at breakfast… realizes that she is aroused by the conversation and attracted to the man across the table from her, and it comes as a surprise. I have a theory, let me know what you think of it, (LG, Present help me out here) that the powerful moment in a seduction works differently for men and women… For a woman the powerful moment is when she feels her own attraction for the man, whereas for men it is when he feels her attraction for him.

    7. Listen for the sexual sub-communication after the emotional opening: Women’s sexuality differs from ours because it highly scenario oriented. Its why they read spicy novels and like porn with a plot. When a woman is emotionally open to you like in stage 7 she will likely begin to reveal her inner scenario preference. Either through words or actions… In the OP it was the very wifey soup making and serving that was the tell… The OP had a c. girl. Women’s sexual fantasies are as individual as finger prints but I think there are 3 basic flavors and it is helps to keep the flavors in mind so you know what you are looking for. If you can ID the woman’s main scenario, most woman have them all to some extent, (50 shades of grey was so successful because it combined all 3) and deliver some of it to her. It is a kind of seductive gift. When bridging to the day 2 it is great to sub-communicate her scenario back to her. Once you are at the second isolation knowing her scenario helps you calibrate:

    a. Pretty Pretty Princess- This is where the man takes charge by pampering the woman… and buying her gifts. It is why the part of Pretty Woman where Richard Gere buys the dresses for Julia Roberts is sexy to women. (Please note I am not recommending trying to bribe sex out of women with gifts!)

    b. Over Come with Passion-We just could not help ourselves and tore each other’s cloths off… We were like animals it just happened… Even if it was not supposed to… Stranger fantasy is in this category… Think Angelina Jolie and Antonio Banderas in Original Sin.

    c. Submission- Bondage, domination, rape and coercion fantasies etc… Mickey Roark and Kim Bassenger in 9 ½ Weeks.

    8. Bounce and decide if it is an SNL or a day 2 situation : I usually bounce at this point. I tell her it is getting late and ask her where she is going next. Unless it is grossly out of my way I offer her drop her on the way to my office. I Uber myself a black car…hailing a grungy taxi wrecks the vibe… Hotels always have a covered entry so we can go straight from our table, to the lobby, to the car without really touching the street. I always open the door and put my hand on her waist or back as she gets in, and then let our legs brush while we sit in the car. The car is about kino… I ask about her earrings and touch her hair, or ask about her shoes and touch her calf etc… When we are almost to her destination, I either escalate… Or I tell her I enjoyed our ‘conversation’ and suggest we meet up after work some time without making a definite plan.

    If I have done it right she gets out of the car into the bustle and noise of a New York morning and the contrast to the lush game is jarring… She thinks wow, “I just accidentally happened across the most interesting and attractive guy.” And I have set up my bridge to a day 2 before 10:00 AM… Also my breakfast and car were tax deductible. (subtract 1/3 of the cost BD )

    9. The Woman Cloud:The goal of doing Day 1s, emotionally connecting and ejecting, is not to quickly close a day 2 as much as it is to have a cloud of potential day 2 women from which you can pull when you feel like it… I know this is contrary to accepted wisdom… But it is not the friend zone. If you want to screen a little this is the place to do it. You are under no obligation to call for a day 2.

    10a. The Day 2: For a day 2 call her or send an email… I don’t use text for this, and say… “I enjoyed talking with you last X day at breakfast. I am going to X at 7:00 today for a drink and dinner. Would you like to join me and continue the conversation?” I prefer to call because if she can’t make it, I can just call a different woman in the woman cloud. I always call in the early afternoon always on a week day and always set the date for that evening. Do not give them time to think. Mature women have complicated lives and get up in their heads fast… In her head leads to anxiousness, which leads to ASD. Plan the date… Busy woman hate it when they have to make the decisions… Very AFC. I go someplace small and quiet that is walking distance to my apartment. Tell them where to meet you have and your reason to bring them to your apartment already in mind. Show up 10minutes early order a drink at the bar and give your credit card to the waiter. Tell him to just bring the bill to sign at the end of the meal, because you don’t like to argue with a lady over the bill. (The places I go regularly all already know my habits in this regard) She should find you at the bar… Don’t make her wait and don’t start needy texting if she is late. Once at dinner reestablish the emotional tone from the day one. Chances are she will do this herself without much prompting. Just verbally create a mental bridge back to that conversation by asking about something she spoke about. I position my frame so that it is giving her some of her seductive scenario. Compliment her on her emotional depth… If she is an 8-9+ this is critical…. Never complement a woman’s looks unless she is almost nude… And reveal something intimate. Escalate to relationship talk and sex talk with light kino. Linger over dinner 2-1/2 hours is fine. If the conversation is good this should be easy. Catch the waiter’s eye and just sign the check as pre-arranged. This makes getting up and changing venue very fast… Transitions need to be quick to keep her out of her head. Say let’s have one more drink… and then take her to your apartment which should be very close. Wall smash kiss on the way if it feels right. Interior décor matters as much as grooming for the mature woman. My apartment is not large but it is decorated in a masculine and sexy style. It is your world… It should be exciting… and mature. Your decorating choices and menu choices should be consistent with your brand.

    10b. Alternate day 2: I don’t do this anymore because cooking in an NYC apartment is awkward and I don’t bring new woman to my country house anymore as it violates discretion with my OLTR. That said I used to do this often and it works very well and is low cost. I am a very good cook… So I would often talk about food entertaining and meals I have made or enjoyed. During the day 1. She would usually be intrigued by this and say something non-seriousness like, “I wish I was having dinner at your house.” to which I say, “you could some time.” The 10b pitch is like the 10a in that you call same day early afternoon, but it works great on a Sunday… You say I am making X (it is very good if it was the exact dish you spoke about at the day 1) and I realized that I am going to have way too much for just myself. Come over to my place at 6:30 and have some dinner. Keep it very light… Once she is at your place you can escalate more quickly then in step 11 below. Often dinner happens after the sex in this situation. When she arrives try to take as much of her clothing as you can. Shoes jacket sweater… Hang them up!

    I make brazed dishes in the oven because they are hard to over cook and it creates a good smell in the house. Be almost done cooking by the time she arrives the Oven is just on warm at this point… She should see you cook a little but not much. Have wine and nuts, olives and cheese out. Mix a cocktail… Make it strong she is not driving tonight. Have slow dance music on in the kitchen… I use Motown or classic Swing Jazz. Pour the wine eat a few nuts. Bridge to the emotional connection from the day one, while drinking the cocktail and lightly cooking (tossing a salad or something.) DO NOT LET HER HELP… SHE WILL OFFER… Tell her where to sit… I have stools in my country kitchen for this… Vibe with the sexual scenario detected on the day 1. If she is a Princess, feed her a bite playfully off of a spoon. If she is a passion woman do the same with your fingers and blow on it first… If she is a submissive make her sit on the stool,” where I can look at you,” and eye fuck her while you taste the dish with your fingers. As long as you are a good host the buying temp should start to rise. Ask her to dance… Women love to dance in the kitchen. Escalate… Escalate… Escalate… Eat dinner afterwards… Let her ware her panties and one of your shirts…

    11. SEX: Calibrate the final escalation to her seduction scenario which should be more fleshed out by now. If she is a Pretty Pretty Princes I offer her the pair of Chinese house slippers and the kimono I keep for this purpose… I put it on her and then start with a slow kiss while I tie the belt… If she is an overcome by passion girl I just wall smash in the entry with my fist in her hair. If she is a submissive I tell her what to do… Go sit on that stool so that I can look at you… etc… Undress a PPP slowly. If she is an OBP rip her bottoms off and fuck her half dressed alternating harder and softer. Stop in the middle with your cock half in hold her hair in your fist, look her in the eyes and then plunge… Let her know you own her. If she is a SUB ask her to undress for you… Be a little aloof. Show her that she turns you on… Let her see her how nakedness get you erect. Ask her to go down on you first… Then eat her… Withhold your cock a bit… use her for your pleasure.”

  73. Ohhhhh – apparently I’ve breached Imgur community rules so my post has been blocked.

    I’ll work out a solution tomorrow..

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