Pro Revenge

Several years ago I wrote the essay Rejection and Revenge. Eventually this piece found its way into my third book Positive Masculinity, but I had considered it for inclusion in the first book because it covered a core principle I had discussed on the SoSuave forums years prior. A desire for revenge is something innate to the human experience. Most higher-order animals have some rudimentary sense of what’s fair. Even dogs have a sense of fairness and can experience some form of jealousy. The study of altruism in animals, to say nothing of humans, is a complex affair. However, somewhere along the evolutionary path a species did better if they cooperated and had some investment in promoting the survival of their kin.

That leads to an innate understanding of fairness and unfairness. Human’s add ethics and morality to this equation, but the root is the same; on some level of consciousness we make comparisons, and from them we evaluate what is equitable according to our own interests. It serves a species’ survival interests to evolve pattern recognition and make reasoned judgments about those patterns.

Collectivists will argue that this dynamic is proof of a need for an idealized egalitarianism to promote the greater good, while selfish gene individualists will argue that it’s evidence of unconditioned self-concern for one’s own survival. Either way, human beings are very motivated by the emotional response to a perceived injustice – so much so that we will raise those feelings to metaphysical significance. Even our gods rage over injustice; Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord. A tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye might make the whole world blind, but it’s the foundation of our evolved sense of fairness.

And why wouldn’t fairness be so impactful for us? Our lizard brains associate that imbalance with a threat to our survival, our wellbeing and our reproductive efforts. Our limbic system detects some unfairness – usually via our peripheral awareness – we get a squirt of some hormonal cocktail into our system, and now we can’t shake this feeling that we ought to feel jealous or suspicious of someone or some environmental condition where we’re getting the short end of the stick. We are literally wired (and piped) for making judgement calls. Even when those judgement calls prove unfounded, and maybe detrimental to us, to err on one side or the other of that innate judgmentalism served our ancestors well enough to get us to where we are now.

It’s easy to consider this evaluating, judgmental nature in terms of simplistic right or wrong choices. Right being what ever benefits the individual in equal measure to another, wrong being whatever thoughts or behaviors conceal the interests of individual self-concern. The Seven Deadly Sins are all fundamentally about this evolved fairness equation. Greed might be a benefit to the individual – and their kin by association – but to our limbic evaluation it’s unfair to the greater, necessitous whole of society. Ergo, greed becomes a sin, and social conventions like do unto others as you would have done unto you becomes a counterbalance to the unfairness. However, most of the choices we make in life are not simple right vs. wrong equations. Some of the greatest stories ever told by humans are about right vs. right and wrong vs. wrong (or maybe less wrong) choices. While dogs may feel jealousy, and chimps may give a banana to another who didn’t get one, they’re rarely confronted with the nuances of justice that humans have to consider.

Why We Love Revenge

When we attach this innate sense of fairness to biological imperatives things get dicey. The purview of my work is intersexual dynamics, so I’ll be focusing on that imperative here. But remember that concepts like fairness, jealousy, revenge, rivalry and the indignation that accompany these and more are not just limited to solving one’s reproductive problem. That said, human beings love revenge. We fantasize about it. We write epics about revenge. Some invest their lives in creating fictions to find some psychological catharsis for an injustice they will never actually resolve in their lifetime. I would argue that humans enjoy the chemical cocktail, and associated emotions, that stem from a desire for revenge.

To be clear, I’m not talking about some ephemeral sense of justice. This is root-level, squirt of adrenaline, desire to balance a perceived or actual unfairness that threatens the individual’s (or associated group) survival or propagation. I’ve written extensively about women’s innate need for Indignation and the associated chemical-emotional response they derive from it. Primarily I believe this need stems from the way women (neurologically) prioritize and process emotion, but it also serves as a confirmation of their Hypergamous filtering. No indignation is more satisfying for women than the feelings they derive from thwarting the sexual efforts of a false-Alpha male. This indignation response, and the good feels that reinforce it, serves to aid (sometimes trick) women’s sexual selection imperatives and avoid their existential fear. Ultimately, what’s fair for women is whatever serves the Sisterhood’s Hypergamous best interests.

For men, and particularly the young men of this new order generation, revenge fantasies hold a similar, indignant appeal. As we’ve systematically feminized the males of the last 4 generations, we’ve also conditioned them to prioritize the same emotional responses we would expect in women. As I’m fond of saying, we raise boys as defective girls who then become parodies of defective women. Part of this conditioning is training young men to identify with the female experience, but also to want to become a part of that experience. The female experience is always the “correct” experience. So it follows that the prioritization of emotion as a peak experience is something this generation of men have internalized. Feels before reals. A common lament of women and feminized men today is that if men could be more expressive in their emotions (the emotions women are comfortable with) then the world would be a better place. Thinking and feeling like a woman makes for a better “man“, right? That’s today’s gynocentric logic.

But indignation (the result of inherent unfairness) based on reproductive imperatives works very differently in men. Men’s evolved existential fear is based on ensuring his own paternity. Determining that a child is a man’s actual genetic progeny has been an imperative evolution has embedded in men’s mental firmware. Until DNA testing arrived men had relatively no empirical way to determine if he was a cuckold (a female mating strategy) and his parental investment and evolutionary imperative had been wasted. Thus, indignation, prompted men to create social conventions to provide at least the semblance of socially enforced parental certainty. The deal is, if a man is to invest his reproductive potential in a woman and their children she should be bound by social expectations that the child is his genetic progeny. It’s only fair.

But, life’s not fair. And men and women’s reproductive strategies are inherently adversarial, so what constitutes justice in the sexual marketplace is often defined by the gender with the most social power at the time. In every age prior to the Sexual Revolution that was men, now it’s women.

Men innately process emotion, particularly negative emotion, differently than women. Again, this is how evolution wired men, but the social dictates of this time go to great lengths to condition men to believe that the way they process emotion is “incorrect”. Their natural proclivities make them bad humans when their innate way of being emotional conflicts with the “correct” female way of experiencing emotion they were taught. As a result of this conflict we have recent generations of men who seek the same indignation rush women have an innate attraction to. However, these young men get their endorphin rush from revenge scenarios that align with their innate imperatives – exposing paternity fraud, cuckoldry and exposing the duplicity of women’s innate mating strategies.

Comeuppance

Revenge is an expanding topic of interest for average frustrated young men. Closing in on almost a million subscribers, the Reddit sub-forum r/prorevenge is one of the fastest growing topics on the platform today. I was only made aware of the sub after doing some research on the popularity of tags for YouTube videos. ‘Pro Revenge’ is a Black Pill (and MGTOW) sweetheart tag for what I referred to as the Doom Pill in my video Red Meat for the Red Pill. The Pro Revenge concept is simple; guys in the forum relate stories about how ‘deserving’ people got their comeuppance. Justice or Karma is served up to cheaters, scammers, liars, thieves and other assorted attempts to offend our innately human sense of fairness. To be fair, all Pro Revenge topics are not about cheating or duplicitous women – there are loads of stories about bad employers, plagiarists and Success Porn gurus – but real-world revenge stories about women’s duplicity being thwarted by a smart Red Pill guy or just blind circumstance are clearly the most popular themes.

The popularity of young men experiencing revenge either in fantasy or vicariously through others is becoming a very lucrative profit model for agile YouTube channel hosts as well as Lifestyle Coaches. When I consider the ceaseless hunger for Red Meat topics in the Black Pill, MGTOW or just the Manosphere in general the source of that hunger always comes back to the emotional rush attendant to indignation. When a woman “gets hers” because her mating or empowerment strategy was foiled, men get a sense of righteous indignation; particularly guys who enjoy commiserating in their shared sense of powerlessness. And that commiseration has never been easier or more organized than in our new order technological world. Pro Revenge is just one of many innovations that cater to men’s desire to see things put straight and experience the endorphin rush that comes with it. It feels good to see “justice” served.

Of course, women turned the revenge fantasy into various art forms long ago. Carrie Underwood sings openly about vandalizing and destroying a cheating (now ex) lover’s expensive four-wheel drive truck and countless commiserating women (even today) can recite the lyrics verbatim. In a gynocentric social order, destruction of personal property is entirely acceptable if the perpetrator is a woman who discovered her duplicitous lover was not the man her Hypergamous instincts believed him to be. Women’s existential fear meets justice. And women and feminine-sympathetic men all nod in agreement. Essentially, Pro Revenge has been a thing for women for ages. Courtesy of centuries of bastardized Chivalry and the romantic ideal we just accept it more because Beta men reinforce it as a form of Game. Thus, we have women manufacturing their own indignation in fiction and daytime talk shows that expose an incorrigible pickup artist getting his comeuppance and confirm women’s Hypergamous intuitions. And yet, even this openly embraced double standard only serves as fuel for the Pro Revenge instincts of more young men today.

For all the hopelessness and despondency the information age has brought to men and women it’s also revealed the evolved motives beneath our want for what we think is justice. The Doom Pill is becoming the logical extension of this nihilism and the players in the Hustle Economy are now perfecting ways to profit from it. Exploiting the Gender War for fun and profit has never been easier – because this new generation of men and women enjoy the indignation derive from it so much they become oblivious to their own exploitation.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

96 comments on “Pro Revenge

  1. Blog Update: I’m aware of the comment software problems. I’ll be updating the extensions this weekend so please be patient. I’ll fix it.

  2. This becomes really fascinating, and nuanced, when factored in with group evolutionary strategies. I’d like to see what Kevin MacDonald’s take on this would be.

  3. The motivation doesn’t even have to be real, depending on the mindset. In Underwood’s song, it’s real vandalism based on a lot of “probably” conjectures.

    And how many of the damn fools who know the song by heart have even noticed?

  4. @Rollo: thank you for giving attention to the comment issues, and thanks as usual for hosting the very valuable community!

  5. Well, you can get rid of the (non-masculine) clinically retarded plug-ins for WordPress.

    Really? Online/offline? Thumbs Up/Thumbs down?–Like you mean like feminine sites like FaceBook?

    Compressed comments? Why? Because you thought it was a thing? Which aren’t actually easier to read? And then got fucked up?

    I hate to comment with this but only to say those plug-ins were kinda negatively stupid.

  6. I like the compressed comments. You don’t have to scroll through miles and miles of shit from some retard

  7. Revenge is great if it’s a motivator to move on and improve so you don’t ever have to endure whatever situation caused you the distress—a break-up, getting fired, getting passed over.

    Revenge is not healthy if it becomes an obsession.

    Success is the best revenge…

  8. I have a thought related to the Rejection and Revenge essay, and the good point it makes about how the best revenge is a life well lived.

    I don’t care about revenge but I do hate being taken advantage of; this prevents me from entering situations/deals/arrangements which, while necessary for me to have a well lived life, disproportionately benefit an opposing party.

    For example, during a long-running real estate bubble I could afford a house to live in and it would improve my life. But I’d feel like a chump paying a high price to a previous owner who, simply due to luck of their age, got to buy it affordably.

    I don’t know at which point this way of thinking becomes maladaptive.

  9. Country music has some good stories here. Think of Charley Pride “The Snakes Come out in the Evening” and Porter Wagoneer “The Cold Hard Facts of Life”. Both date before the Sexual Revolution.

  10. Coolio
    Success is not the best revenge.

    Revenge is the best revenge.

    Hey coolio, my man, where have you been?

    Tell us more about yourself.

    A story, perhaps:

    “Make sense with stories. If you give people facts without a story, they will explain it within their existing belief system. The best way to promote a new or different belief is not with facts, but with a story.”

    I never quite accepted your thrash talking. Or believe you are anything. I could be wrong. Because you never volunteered much of anything at all. Got girls? Gym rat? Wealth, money, status?

    Simple inquiry. Don’t be afraid to put up some commentary insight. Or just don’t say nothing. Are you black pill guy advocating revenge is best served cold kind of guy?

  11. Having fairly recently found this blog and studied about hypergamy… Oh well, where was this information in my life before, lol?
    Anyway, it really enhances my decision to live my own life in my own way, have firm opinions about world matters, to the extent of women getting angry at them or even flat-out hating me for having opinions. But it doesn’t really matter, that’s how it is supposed to be it seems. If women hate you, it’s better if you don’t exist for them, lol. Not that it has made me sexually attractive to women as of now, but I don’t really mind any more. Let them chase only their top 10-20% men and get constantly burnt and hurt by this. People learn the hard way, if they learn at all.

  12. @Jens

    Welcome.

    You’ve started the path but there’s a lot of reading to do which is just the start of the internal work.

    Women don’t really hate you, and if it looks like they do then it’s because you’re being too subservient and they sense weakness in your personality. It’s that which they despise.

    At the other end of the spectrum they “hate” you but love you at the same time because you won’t fold into their frame.

    Given the state of society it’s not actually that difficult to get into the top 20% – so take it over to field reports and run down your experiences and we’ll see if we can straighten it out.

  13. Revenge is the best revenge is very Gamma….

    Plotting the demise of your enemies or that girl who hurt your feewings is a waste of time…

    Having her notice you after you’ve stopped thinking about her? Best revenge.

  14. @walawala

    I don’t think you should ever get yourself in a situation where revenge is even a thing.

    It’s sucks of over investment in a particular and having lost hand.

    If some shit goes down you should be shrugging it off.

    I’ve noticed over the years that when people lose their shit over stuff it’s usually because their life isn’t going very well on a whole host of different levels.

  15. WalaWala. ***** You’ve obviously never been in a situation where revenge was required. ***** Your use of the word Gamma tells me a lot. Stop doing things – like using that type of language (among other things) – and your feelings won’t get hurt.

  16. SJF. ***** I can see some of your comment – but I can’t read the entire thing. This website’s ability to open larger comments appears to be busted. ***** What exactly would you like to know ? I don’t think it really matters what I say about myself, because you probably wouldn’t believe me anyhow. I have a difficult time believing it myself.

  17. I have no idea if the previous comment was directed at me. ***** If it was – I have no idea who liebert is, and I have no idea who if-I-fell is. ***** Should I care ?

  18. @Palma Yes and that gets back into the abundance mentality.

    It’s also important not to confuse “revenge” with standing up for yourself.

    @ Sentient I think there is some sense of satisfaction at being right or seeing someone who disrespected you somehow falter or fail. But that’s not “revenge”.

    The obsessive act of getting even is different from the concept of making things right.

  19. A country song with revenge from a man’s perspective is Toby Keith “How Do You Like Me Now”. Except instead of committing a crime like in the Carrie Underwood song (a male artist could never get away with those type of lyrics!) it has a success revenge theme. The woman rejected him when he was a nobody but then became a country music superstar.

  20. I think revenge is one of the easiest things to fall into a cognitive dissonance black hole around. We often hold lots of contradictory notions. With revenge as noted in the essay, “An eye for an eye makes the world blind.” What the essay left out is that the man who turns the other cheek gets bruises on both sides of his face. There is a difficult line to walk in between the two.

  21. …and then one day you wake up and realize that all your old buddies have morphed into beta male provider simps who get sex once a month in the missionary position from their wives who slowly got fat over the last 10 years.

    You can’t talk about it with them or you won’t have friends. You cant hang with them anymore because they are too beta.

    What do you do as red pill aware?

  22. @Fact

    There are a very very small minority of men that get it.

    ^^ that is exactly what happened to all my married friends.

    You have to pro actively troll for like minded men. If you go hard you can probably find one a year.

    Apart from that hang out in here.

  23. “You can’t talk about it with them or you won’t have friends. You cant hang with them anymore because they are too beta.

    What do you do as red pill aware?”

    Friendships are ephemeral. They don’t have to be. But they often are. You move on and associate with others and get new friends. Or not. Don’t fit square pegs into round holes.

    A lot of times the beta is in stasis. Your job is to keep moving forward.

    And one note to say: red pill friends change and move on too. Because by nature a lot of red pill buddies are in a liminal state and tend to move through stasis and move on. So, just know that going in. Red pill friendships are dynamic and it is not at all unusual to have friendships move on and move away. I have a lot of experience with that. And it is not a bad thing. It is normal. It is helpful to look toward and generate friends with red pill guys and have an exchange of ideas. And be happy for their growth if they move on and find their best selves.

    Look at what happened to the 21 con crowd of 2018 and 2019. Turbulence and moving on happened.

    Don’t hold on. Move on.

  24. What do you do as red pill aware?

    You become your MPoO and you don’t expect more from others than they can give.

    And if you go out, you will find a few like-minded guys. But they aren’t going to want to coffee klatch, they will be doing stuff.

  25. oh and the meme of Make Women Great Again is a beta ploy based in the wrong MPoO. You don’t approach it from the perspective of making them anything. Change yourself from within – burden of performance – create and lead and draw women in on the correct side of desire for you – next them otherwise

  26. Make Women Great Again is purple pill marketing slogan used to sell tickets to men who want to bring their wives along to ADJ bitch muscle events.

  27. “You’ve become harsh towards women,” a lifelong friend told me, like since the Army infantry boot camp Day 1. “No, just aware.” We are still good friends, but we live in different worlds. I changed more.

    I do not expect things when a person does not have them to give, or can not because it would destroy their personal story. A lot of my friends do not want to hear of “hot female bodies”, or even my own success at staying lean, because their women said “fuck it” and went for the chips, chardonnay, etc…It is amazing how a woman losing her sex appeal changes everything, deep down.

    Men at parties, acquaintances I have known for years, fall into two types. First, more mature men, meaning married or generally dating younger, been more beat up by life, and then the second group, younger men, who seem to have decent enough relationships on the outside, conventionally looking at it over the course of a few hours. The beat up older men who are still slaves to vagina connected to abusive women are pathetic. They usually have no other option, or perceive it that way. And, they do not want to hear about it, the Red Pill. Their marriage, girlfriend is a form of religion to them, and they are the one kneeling.
    The men who came through the storm of 30s and 40s with some understanding are interesting, and we seem to speak some common form of “pidgin English.”

  28. Pro Revenge is un-necessary.

    It is not actually a red pill way of proceeding.

    IDK. It must have to do with if a masculine male is executing his pro-creative strategy or not. (If you get laid with ease, or have your children and gracefully proceed to raising them with your LTR partner/wife along side till their adulthood and there-after. Then you are not so ill at ease. Paternity certainty. Regular sex. Whatever. There is grace in that state.)

    And it’s funny, is this current Karen meme a way of pro-revenge? How come people say the same stuff all the time?

    The Karen meme is only so funny. And, yet should be kept on the side of funny, because Karen’s like the the recent dog-handler in Central Park was just this side of clinically retarded. Not on the side of hate them/malevolence. Memes are meant to influence retards, or to joke.

    But it is not a venue for hate/pro-revenge. Because she (central park Karen) was not even close to being cool.

    Be harmless, not hateful. Graceful, with charm, not revengeful with pro-revenge. It reflects on you.

    After all that is only being above the fray, being masculine and indifference is more potent than hate.

    https://youtu.be/KKxNGNh5SVw

    A graceful person, is one who is unruffled, someone who can deal with trials and tribulations without breaking step–This can be a distinct advantage in relating to other people.

  29. The Male Life Cycle

    When I was 13,
    I hoped that one day I would have a girlfriend with big tits.

    When I was 16,
    I got a girlfriend with big tits, but there was no passion; So, I decided I needed a passionate girl with a zest for life.

    When I was 19,
    I dated a passionate college girl, but she was too emotional. Everything was an emergency; she was a drama queen, cried all the time and threatened suicide. So, I decided I needed a girl with stability.

    When I was 25,
    I found a very stable girl, but she was boring. She was totally predictable and never got excited about anything. Life became so dull that I decided that I needed a girl with some excitement.

    When I was 28,
    I found an exciting girl, but I couldn’t keep up with her. She rushed from one thing to another, never settling on anything. She did mad impetuous things and made me miserable as often as happy. She was great fun initially and very energetic, but directionless. So, I decided to find a girl with some real ambition.

    When I was 30,
    I found a smart ambitious girl with her feet planted firmly on the ground; So, I married her. She was so ambitious that she divorced me and took everything I owned.

    I am older and wiser now, and I am looking for a girl with big tits.

    (Source: //franksfunnies.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/the-male-life-cycle/#comments)

  30. @If I Fell
    The Male Life Cycle

    Thanks, that one made me laugh. Nice to do once in a while when depressed

  31. Why are euro-tards jumping on the floyd protest bandwagon? Whats the chance europeans are ever going to get hassled by american police?

    Too many pandemic layoffs.

  32. Whats the chance europeans are ever going to get hassled by american police?

    It has nothing at all to do with that.

  33. Sentient
    Well at least all SJWs don’t look like Trigglypuff…

    Those are dressed as Antifa. Maybe wannabes, maybe groupies.
    A man in SoCal told me that at first all the “protestors” he saw were 20-something girls trying to look hot and taking selfies. Waiting for the guys to show up, of course.

    Later on when the Grove mall got broken into he saw more ordinary thieves.

  34. AR

    Yes antifa are not known to wear fancy pink back packs…

    In other news. https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/31/george-floyds-family-intends-to-have-an-independent-autopsy-performed/

    I suspect we will go through a few rounds of this until things fit the narrative just so. If you watch the full interaction it’s clear that Floyd resisted getting out of the car and is in great emotional distress at being arrested. He also looks inebriated.

    Also the officer who cuffed him is a minority.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNX8-PWCi6E

    What I’ve not yet seen is the transition from standing to the floor. I have a feeling why.

    But enjoy your curfews… 🙃

  35. Chauvin and Floyd worked at the same restaurant for 17 years. There’s some funny business about that restaurant which I haven’t figured out yet.

  36. I’m having such a good time reading the twitter comments by New Yorkers whining about Cuomo and DeBlasio. I bet Antifa doesn’t make it to the Florida Keys or Puerto Rico or Hawaii.

  37. @SJF

    “I”ll have sex with you if you wear a Breathe Right Nasal Strip.”

    Careful with that. Might think about smacking her arse and refusing next time she puts a condition..

    Just my $0.02.

  38. Blue Pill Report:

    Have you seen the fall of Buffalo Old Dude and him bleeding on the cement? When I first saw that I was horrified. But someone’s comments made me look more carefully. The guy is a magician. Fullscreen the vid and pause it frequently to catch the action. I don’t want to spoil it for you.

  39. Fyi, very glad Rollo did the comment preview feature. I’m going long, and I don’t need to bother those of you who don’t give a shit…Happy Saturday.
    I’ve long sensed a fundamental disagreement with Rollo in evo psych areas, but was never able to nail down how our views differ fundamentally. Then I read this: “However, somewhere along the evolutionary path a species did better if they cooperated and had some investment in promoting the survival of their kin.”

    Ah yes, the debunked individualist reduction lingers in so many minds. The implications of Dawkins Kin Selection theory being debunked by E.O. Wilson’s work on “group selection” haven’t been properly digested by many people. I’ll summarize it simply (and probably badly, I know there are some real scientists here, pleas offer technical corrections). Kin selection theory essentially posits that the strongest signal in the bias of selection data is in favor of “kin”. This is a way of seeing the value of cooperation as being about protecting “bloodlines”, and not inconsequentially, reducing any altruistic impulses humans might possess into “selfish” impulses. Hence Dawkins now disproved work, ‘The Selfish Gene’. I always hated Dawkins and his weird progressive politics – except when he doesn’t want to be. He’s okay with an intellectual mob as long as they are on his side, which makes him an uber-creep in my world.

    E.O. Wilson’s work proves decisively that, in fact, kin selection is a weak signal in the selection data and a far stronger signal is that of “group selection”. I believe Dawkins resists this still (as do many scientists) due to his sentimental Progressivism, not due to any real science that can used to defeat E.O. Wilson. Wilson goes into great depth on this subject in his book The Social Conquest of Earth. One comes away from that read with the strong impression that humanity’s unique group social order, featuring group competition, group fitness and hence group selection, is actually THE most important driver of human civilization. He explores this in great technical depth wrt genetics and also behavior. He focuses on the “eusocial” nature of humanity and how rare eusociality is in species, and how successful eusocial species are.

    As an important aside, he uses a brilliant scientific expository technique by revealing much of the science of eusociality with respect to ants and termites and bees. You see in those social orders certain members don’t get a chance to reproduce at all. What impulse are these ‘worker bees’ (yes, you can call them Betas if you’d like) satisfying? Eusociality can’t be explained away as as selfish impulse – the data shows that. There is something greater and more altruistic going on. Human social order is incredibly powerful and plastic. We form ingroups naturally, and find ways to compete as groups. For some reason, humans developed this “more than selfish” social order, and this led to our amazingly complex and brilliant, self-organizing social order that allowed us to become the dominant species on earth, a recent phenomenon in human history. Our dominance was by no means guaranteed as we veered very close to extinction numerous times. There is something unique about harnessing the best of our altruistic sides and suppressing our worst natures. This is the fundamental problem with socialistm, btw, – it imposes our best impulses by law and empowers govt to run amok without limits which of course invites humans worst impulses to control and demonize and destroy people. I need protection from your worst impulses, which is why classical liberal order focuses on limiting the power of govt. I don’t need protection from your altruism, nor do I need the govt to enforce it. Sigh… socialists are so fucking stupid at a fundamental level.

    It turns out hierarchies work really well for ordering social behavior within a group. It turns out that “high trust” within groups means we can ask things of others in this group that we might not rightfully expect from a stranger. In fact, contemporary human social order is comprised of numerous and fluid social ingroups we participate in at work and our families, even on the streets and really anywhere we go. The reason Progressives resist this truth is that it gives lie to the demonic mythology of “RACISM” as some unique thing white folks do to black people. Nope. But what Western Civilization has given to the world isa mode of living cooperatively as different ingroups that is unprecedented in human civilization, and gave rise to the greatest leaps of human progress in our species history – we did give that to humanity. One would think that would be worth something, yes?

    It’s simple. Any approach to “social justice” must be based on some foundation of group cooperation as well as individual cooperation. One reason the current racial dialog feels so imbalanced to white people like me is that only my personal aspects are allowed to be considered, and then I’m found guilty of racism no matter what due to privilege. So I’m morally trapped there. And then there is no space for “white” interests so I’m left wriggling around while blacks use the cudgel of their group victimhood along with their phantasmagorical stories about personal oppression that are mostly bullshit in the public space to spread their anti-white hate. Here’s the real truth. White Northern Europeans conquered the world, we won the group competition. Classical liberalism and Christianity were simply unbeatable. And we then tried to include everyone on earth into this social order, and that’s been a rocky path.

    Why? I won’t even try to answer that question. But I do know this. Once you digest this, you can’t see the world the same afterwards. You see how we in the U.S. are in a culturally suicidal death spiral, destroying our own group identity in every way possible. Those doing so are Nietzsche’s “tarantulas” and they now have run amok. The great wheel grinds all into dust before it, we are apparently no different.

    But in the end, my large bore point here is that the reduction of human beings into essentially “game-theory optimizing automatons” by Dawkins and his ilk is bullshit. And this has vast implications for many fields, including for social scientists as well political and moral philosophers. Intergroup cooperation is the goal, not ingroup elimination. Or as we have now, elimination of the most successful ingroup? Really? What da fuck?

    E.O. Wilson helped me see this all. Dawkins reinforced the long held idea that there is nothing unselfish and hence “good” about human nature. Turns out that we are more than that. There is magic in our numinous, loving, joyful and giving nature. There is beauty in it. Classical culture celebrated this, while most culture today celebrates depravity, nihilism, anti-western culture and atomization. Things have changed so fast. As late as the ’70s we were celebrating a bottoms up, “average Joe” culture in which everyone could participate in and be part of, even as it was being overrun and destroyed. But that sense of belonging that the working person had, that the family had – there was a sense of innate goodness one felt playing one’s part in our society. Think about how this played out for the Betas who were more likely to marry up and reproduce under this social order than otherwise, but still as many as half of men didn’t get a chance to reproduce. But hey, it’s better than the top 20% getting everything and the top 1% having harems for the submissive, lower SMV males as it was pre-modernity.

    We had to tame the bottom 80% of males so they’d put the bit in their mouths. We forced women to “marry down” as they can’t help the back of their brains aims them at top 20% guys any more than I can feel guilty for a 20yo getting me hard instantly. Betas at least were in the game under “the old set of books” as Rollo likes to say. 40% of them got a chance at reproducing. But now that we took all the moral education and group/cultural reinforcement of morality out of western people’s lives, so we are reverting to the 80/20 rule. I play that game to my benefit cuz these days, even young hotties will bang a high value guy in his ’50s as a fun Friday night. But they are never going to marry up some chode. Or if they do, they will cheat and divorce and ruin him. And the top 20% guys see less reason to be faithful or get married as a smart high value guy can literally have a 30 year window of banging the upcoming generation of hotties between 18-23, lol. Why the fuck would any sentient male acting in his own interests give that up? And today he isn’t shamed at all. Men were shamed for that kind of behavior extremely in the “bad old days”. I’d be a cad and a pervert, lol. I had no idea how much fun those guys were having.

    Now? Of course betas are pissed off. They have the remnants of the old order’s bit in their mouths, and get sneered at shamed, subverted and exploited nonstop. Used to be that any man who went to work, did his best without whining, and basically tried to be a good man would be treated with a basic respect by society and our culture. Today? The “average Joe” is treated like a schmuck and loser nonstop by our culture. Why do you think it’s all about celebrities in our pop culture? They personify top SMV players and that’s our lowest common denominator culturally, the biological impulse that gets me hard and her wet. Yippie kay yay, motherfuckers – you can ride this bronco if you like. But you can’t time travel backwards, and given the above, we are fucked. We destroyed an amazing social order. Marxists did it. On purpose. For 100 years. And you can see it on your TV nightly…The revolution will be televised!

    But at least I know why I am fundamentally uncomfortable with some of Rollo’s analyses. There is that, bwahahaha. I hope you all get some of what you are after in life today guys. Happy Trails.

  40. In answer to scribbs, Rollo’s blog values masculinity–not necessarily men, if the men are feminized betas. Hence, it is perfectly acceptable to mock feminized men on Rollo’s blog. The aim of Rollo’s blog is to develop men who behave in a natural, masculine way. At least as far as sex and sexual relationships are concerned. And some of us take that aim a bit farther, maybe, than Rollo intended.

    We aim to be more than men who embrace masculinity. We want to be where the suggestion that we ought not behave in a masculine way seems laughably absurd.

  41. @Rollo

    The recent YT vidcast with Hotep Jesus was very good. It was encouraging to see people in the chat sidebar telling each other to buy Rational Male books.

    I agree with HJ about reading vs. listening, but I’m not stuck in traffic as much as some men.

  42. Scribs, the conflict is in your mind. Both hypothesis are correct and not in conflict with each other, they exist at the same time in the same space.
    So far as the battle of the bums goes , it was inevitable. Odd that the nonessential youth on the dole are fighting with the very system that supports them as if all the handouts will miraculously keep appearing. The solution is bottoms up, each individual needs to find their space and use in society then fill that void and become essential. Maybe that will happen for some in the “new order”. It is as if TPTB have found the cure for retirement expense and welfare all in one bug and they want it to work its cure in death. How is that for a doom pill.?
    To blame white man for climate,slavery,raceism, is ridiculous as all we have done is make life so easy for humans that they now have time to bitch about problems that don’t exist. Take away fossil fuels and watch slave labor explode, in our solar system the sun and basic physics dominate the climate patterns and the way things look the human race needs fossil fuel now more than ever.
    Nothing has changed the pattern keeps repeating all we need are food, clothing and shelter with a feelling of usefulness.

  43. wahoo mcdaniels
    Scribs, the conflict is in your mind. Both hypothesis are correct and not in conflict with each other, they exist at the same time in the same space.

    Since you commented, I expanded out the Scribs tl;dr … and it’s just a rehash of things he’s said before. Oh, with one or two lines that may be relevant to the current month. It’s just another drive-by. At least he mentioned a couple of books this time.

    A more interesting topic came up in Rollo’s dialog with Hotep Jesus: onlyfans, which exploded in subs beginning in March – COVID lockdown means girls on cam popular, who coulda seen that coming? 20-something men with no social life camping out on their laptops / tablets / phone watching some girl sleeping…side-chatting with other incels…buying a bottle of her bathwater…It’s not a good thing, it’s exploiting the kinds of men who are a bit introverted & thus drawn to the gaming world.

    Here’s an action item: get a 20-something man off of his phone for a period of time, in order that he can do face to face interaction with someone.

    Not a field report: it should be no surprise that masked-up girls can still flick IOI’s out. But how many men under 30 know that?

  44. AR, I heard about that virtual relationship fans only thots a while back. Most places around here don’t have phone service. There’s a vacation rental cabin at the entrance to this ranch ,some good amusement is watching the city folk walking up or down the road with their phones held high one foot in the air and so on looking for signal. If they would climb the mountain in front of them the bars are there.
    The 20 something young men around here can be found where the women are,hangind out like puppies trying to establish social proof and DHV ,I like to call them woody as a general nick name. The girls catch on quick.

  45. wahoo McDaniels
    AR, I heard about that virtual relationship fans only thots a while back.

    Yeah, but it looks like it’s gotten more popular with the whole “self isolation” thing over the last few months. I wonder how the average 22 year old camgirl will do as she gets older, because she’s banking cash that she can’t get much of any other way.

    Most places around here don’t have phone service. There’s a vacation rental cabin at the entrance to this ranch ,some good amusement is watching the city folk walking up or down the road with their phones held high one foot in the air and so on looking for signal. If they would climb the mountain in front of them the bars are there.

    I recall where you are, more or less. The last time I went through there coverage was spotty but did exist in the towns. Maybe not all of the town, true. It’s interesting how there is a real psychological need for connectivity. A few years ago in a US national park there was wifi in the lobby but it was connected to a very narrow data pipe. Watching people fumbling by the fireplace with their phone when a beautiful sunset was literally right out the window was priceless.

    Not that many years ago nobody would have cared. Some of it is the modern work / gig environment where we are expected to be available 24/7 but a lot of it is just kind of programmed stimulus – response. “I have a pic, I must txt it! NOW!” or just social media crap.

    The 20 something young men around here can be found where the women are,hangind out like puppies trying to establish social proof and DHV ,I like to call them woody as a general nick name. The girls catch on quick.

    Lol. You might hand out some red pills, too.

  46. The inane replies to my comment are telling. No @Woohoo both Kin Selection Theory and Group Selection Theory can’t “both be true”. Kin Selection offers a very weak explanation for the bias in selection data, so it’s at best a weak force or more likely is a false signal. The signal in the data supporting group selection is overwhelmingly strong. Atheistic fundamentalists like Dawkins find any suggestion that there is something special about human nature so terrifying that they will not allow “the science” to change their own minds about human nature. They need to see us as grubby organisms, no better than amoebas, that way we need supervision and control of elites.

    Used to be intellectuals here would engage in intellectual dialog. The battle between Kin and Group is quite fun and interesting, thought there might some takers here. But it turns out almost none of you troglodytes even understand what I’m saying.

    And what is up with this the dung beetle that refers to itself as “Coolio”? He comes off like a dumber version of Blaximus, with the same level of self-awareness. @Coolio – If Kin selection theory jumped in your lap and started humping you, would you know what it was? When is the last time you read an entire book? Let me raise the bar – a nonfiction work? Also, why are you invested in my sex life? Let’s say I’m lying about everything, lol, why do you get so triggered? Fyi, I share my exploits here to motivate older guys who’ve given up. My engagement here is so weak and intermittent and has been for years now, it’s obvious to most sentient people that I don’t care much about what goes on here. I do realize newly minted Red Pill guys end up here after being destroyed by divorce or women in some way, so I try and share every once in a while. I also try to offer a counter to some of the simplistic thinking about alpha vs. beta and other tropes on offer in the debased and very disappointing Red Pill community.

    And just in case Coolio is operating in good faith, I’ll restate my experience. My initial Red Pill journey was mostly ‘performative’, in that it was intellectual and involved a lot of talking and arguing on websites and I even had 3 “Men’s” youtube channels with 10s of thousands of views that I successively cancelled as I found my actual growth wasn’t so great. I was challenged by one of the most brilliant Red Pill men I’ve ever encountered, YaReally – right here on these pages – to actually apply the Red Pill in “game”. I took the challenge, and am forever fundamentally changed as a man. I studied “The Mystery Method” of seduction (not pickup, I don’t do pickup) and was amazed at what happened. It made me internalize and actually use Red Pill knowledge in a way reading a blog piece never did. The subversion of men and masculinity is so deep that the experience of pursuing my sexual desires in an authentic way shifted me in a way 1000 of Rollo’s articles never did. And I began to shed the need for external signaling of my Red Pill journey here and elsewhere. I essentially retired from preening about in a frenzy of digital mental masturbation on this blog and elsewhere, and put all that energy into my life.

    Fyi, I look like I’m in my mid-40s. I’ve always had a model-quality face and am a natural alpha who denied it and hated himself for it for years due to an almost terminal “pedestalization” complex. Without learning “game” I’d fucked numerous 9-10s in my life and had an “N” of about 100 (stopped counting) before I became an absolute pervert domming young hotties in the most depraved way you can imagine post-Red Pill. My exwife was the prom queen and homecoming queen, ya? So I play at a different level from the start when it comes to getting laid compared with most 57yo men. My RedPill crisis was brought about by a daughter and sisters, not a wife or girlfriend. Fyi, that relationship w my daughter is long solved and we are very close and loving again, my mission was achieved.

    The more time I spent here on blogs or YouTube channels and other Red Pill stuff, the less I was living a Red Pill life. So I intentionally disconnected and shunned the “sitting in the stands” POV that this level of engagement necessitates and instead live a life that serves my purposes.

    A quick aside on the current racial madness sweeping the nation. This is nothing new. Race riots like this happen regularly in the U.S. Watts, Rodney King – just two of many examples. Rabble will be rabble. Don’t take any of this seriously. It’s performance art for an election year. It’s not real revolution as you can see when they are confronted by any force at all it dissolves. The Left is addicted to their subversion techniques and in the end this might be their downfall cuz they have erected a phony edifice of “revolution” which crumbles when poked at. Look at the right wingers like me showing up with pistols and ARs, confronted two Antifa myself, fucking faggots pissed their pants and took off – just me alone, them casing a store to set on fire later, two young guys my size or bigger in their 20s, fucking pussies, i’m 57, 5’8″, I just looked at them hard and approached and that was enough. This is happening all over the country. The Left turns and runs when confronted by a minimum of organized force.

    Blacks are more violent everywhere they live. Doesn’t matter whether whitey runs things or not. From Lagos to Detroit to South Africa and back, blacks are much more violent to each other and everyone else. In the U.S., 90% of interracial crime is black on white and 94% of black killings are done by other blacks. If that data is a sign of racism all I can say is we are awfully shitty at this racism game. But in the end, I’m willing to play this out with blacks due to the historic repression of them. But Antifa or other people? If I can legally shoot them, I will. And I’m putting myself in an optimum position to do so. My AR is in the back seat with 6 mags ready to rock and roll, glock in my waistband of course, as I cruise through the protesters but they are mostly calm now. Turns out that one of the things Trump did without talking about it was unleash every tactical team Fed LE has on the rioters and targeted the organizers and leadership without much fanfare over the past week or so. Their organization has been broken. The Left is much more fragile than we think and they are finally taking some hard punches from us on the right. Don’t overreact, they are doing political porn, not actual revolution. It’s all about creating images and narratives, but that is never enough. We just need to shoot and arrest a lot of them and we’ll be good. That has finally started.

    BLM is run by lesbian marxist revolutionaries who want to impose radical “intersectionality” on the world, lol. How do black folks actually feel about that? You guys okay with white gay men marrying and making out in front of you and their adopted black children? And lesbians running your “revolution”? Black people aren’t so cool with all that normally, but hey, Coolio, perhaps you are more evolved?

  47. Scribs, have you ever walked your sister to the basketball game after dark (kin selection), to watch the home team kick some ass (group selection).

    In order for science to work we have to narrow the parameters of the question or the proof would be immeasurable, as in kin or group these are 2 narrow theories and while both correct they are hardly inclusive of the array of factors for natural selection.

    I would however posit that kin selection was predominant in the tribal setting while group selection is in the front running in our modern world.

  48. AR , I will refrain from dropping red pills on todays virtue signalling youth, they have already been programmed that I represent the oafish bad guy. The girls and reality will teach them soon enough that most of what they believe is false.

  49. scribs
    The inane replies to my comment are telling.

    You comment is just a tl;dr driveby trolling job. That’s what you do, now. Too bad. That binary thinking emoting you’ve gotten into last couple years isn’t doing you any good.

    Ingroup preference is not a binary thing. It’s more like concentric rings. This is obvious in any human society, or it was before vandals such as Franz Boas and Margaret Mead, etc. deliberately muddied the waters, poisoned wells, and generally made the study of man into a long exercise in politics.

    And what is up with this the dung beetle that refers to itself as “Coolio”?

    Lol @Scribs starting a pissing match with his own sock.

  50. Scrambled Eggs. You are correct. The reply(s) to your remark(s) ARE very Telling. It’s people Telling you how stupid you sound. The troglodytes don’t understand you. Correct again. Because what you say is so Out to Lunch that even a troglodyte can’t understand it. Do I understand Kin and Group Theory. Yes, I do – and it’s obvious that you don’t. Do I read books – to include non fiction. Most likely way more than you. Invested in your sex life. You must be kidding. You full of shit – and you know it. Triggered. Wrong again. Look at the length of your Rant(s) – which is the epitome of being Triggered. An entire paragraph about how fantastic you think you look, how fantastic you think you are, and all the hot babes that you’re boning. All bullshit – and nobody cares. You – and several other blockheads – have somehow come to the conclusion that I’m a black guy. Another glaring indicator that your perceptions and conclusions are so totally off the mark that it’s amazing. I’ve never said one way or the other. I’ve done that intentionally. Nobody cares. And they shouldn’t. Because it doesn’t matter anyway. Your analysis of the History of The World. Nobody cares. You weren’t there. What you do with your guns, and how much of a badass you think you are. More self proclaimed bullshit. Nobody cares. Me being evolved. I’m more hard core than you think. Gay people making out in front of you. You must live in a fucked up location. I suggest moving somewhere else. It might help you think more clearly.

  51. AR. *****
    I have absolutely no connection whatsoever to Scrambled Eggs.
    He’s a complete and total blockhead.
    I also have absolutely no connection whatsoever to anyone else.

  52. wahoo McDaniels
    AR , I will refrain from dropping red pills on todays virtue signalling youth, they have already been programmed that I represent the oafish bad guy.

    Probably more like “creeper” in Minecraft. Could be a useful Game exercise to demonstrate value, but not be condescending or patronizing or anything like their high school teacher who tried to be ‘cool’.

    The girls and reality will teach them soon enough that most of what they believe is false.

    Yeah, in a way they’ll just get lost in the woods. Someone might take one or two of them aside and show them a map.

  53. SJF. ***** – “Me being evolved. I’m more hard core than you think.” How would we know? You haven’t said jack shit in any comment to back that up. You come with no frame of reference. Good luck with that. You are just being an ass at the dinner table. –

    “How would we know”. Absolutely correct. You don’t. And you wouldn’t. I could put up anything here – and it could be a lie. Just like anything else anybody else says about themselves. What incentive do you have to believe any of it ? None. Would you ? Probably not.

    “You haven’t said anything to back that up”. See previous statements.

    “You come with no frame of reference”. See previous statements.

    “You’re an ass at the dinner table”. How so ? Because what I say is correct.

    ***** Do you actually take what people say on here about themselves as 100% truth – and expect them to take what you say about yourself as 100% truth ? *****

  54. SJF. ***** There you go again. You seem to be stuck on constantly bringing up race – and you are always the first to bring it up. The hallmark of a racist. Same with Scrambled Eggs.

    Careless in the way I move or behave. How so ?

    Friends. Plenty.

    Bragging. Not bragging. Your words. Not mine.

    Details. You would actually 100% believe what a random person on the internet would say ?

    Whining. How so ? I’m stating factual information.

    Can I even tell a story. Plenty. Would you actually believe any of them ? (See above : reference – Details).

  55. If the Field Reports comments could go back to a limit of comments per page that would be great. Can’t load 10k comments on one page.

    Thanks for the greatness Rollo.

  56. @Sentient

    I think it’s shut and we’re in via a glitch.

    I’m over at West Indian Archies until I can find somewhere else to hang out.

    Shame.

  57. Hard times create strong men.
    Strong men create good times.
    Good times create weak men.
    And, weak men create hard times.

  58. i’m really curious: has your work been influenced by schopenhauer in some way, or is it just a great coincidence?

    i’ve been wondering for a while if you are aware most of your works (as well as the work of other authors in this sphere) could be seen as extensive elaborations of what grandpa schoppy wrote two hundred years ago
    my first contact with the “red pill” was thanks to him, and kinda built the basis for the way i now understand the world around me

    it was until years later that i found your blog, and i could not thank you enough for it

  59. If I fell.

    FR page has been set to show all comments on one page. It can’t load 10k comments. Post on westindianarchie.com in the meantime.

  60. Thanks Sentient, I had taken some days away. I had captured, but not listened to the comments that forced Rollo’s hand. And, of course, thank you Rollo for keeping this site going!

    I actually managed to open Field Reports and before it crashed, did a CTRL-A and saved 3,097,929 Words in a Word document. It must have taken 10 minutes before the computer would respond. So, I wouldn’t recommend it until our host has made the weekend updates.

    Not much I care to say about it, but I spent my first Father’s Day without a living father to celebrate. So, strange that the totality of the relationship is now history.

  61. If-I-Fell

    Not much I care to say about it, but I spent my first Father’s Day without a living father to celebrate. So, strange that the totality of the relationship is now history.

    The first one is the most difficult. It gets a bit easier later on. Do be aware of it, like you’d be aware of a missing tooth (poor analogy, I know) but do not ruminate on it; don’t let it come to dominate your thinking or your emotions. Acknowledge the emotions, but don’t let them grab you.

  62. @Rollo

    FYI:
    Field Reports has something inside it that chews up a lot of CPU cycles, it is essentially impossible to load.

  63. Okay, we’re going back to the old style Jetpack comment plugin for the time being. Comments are now open. I will actively moderate until such time as the witch hunt for wrong-think won’t be fed by commentors with an axe to grind with me or other commentors here.

  64. Very interesting topic. Could these same ideas be applied to ethnic groups seeking generational revenge or fairness for past injustices?

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