The Mystery of the Red Dress

Today’s quote is from the Biography of Steve Jobs. I did read the book in its entirety in 2010, but recently had this bit sent to me from a reader as an example of ‘How an Alpha should treat a Gold-digger‘. Mmm? No.

As an example of “alpha behavior” or an illustration of equal justice I can see why this incident might be construed as such, but there’s a much more valuable lesson to be learned in this exchange. The incident took place between Steve Jobs and singer Joan Baez, a woman who Jobs eventually had a relationship with.

In 1982, Jobs was introduced to Joan Baez by her sister Mimi Farina. He was 27 and she was 41. “It turned into a serious relationship between two accidental friends who became lovers,” said Jobs. Some of his friends believed that one thing that drew Jobs to Baez was the fact that she used to date Bob Dylan. “Steve loved that connection to Dylan,” said Jobs’ college friend Elizabeth Holmes.” The relationship fizzled out when it became clear that Jobs wanted children and Baez did not. 

Rolling Stone, 2011

Using a Red Pill Lens on this situation, we see a few apparent truths. The age difference was definitely a factor, but Jobs was well-known for what was called his “Reality Distortion Bubble“. In effect Steve Jobs had an intrinsic understanding of himself as his Mental Point of Origin. A lot of Type-A personalities have this in common – they innately make themselves the first thought they have in virtually all decisions they make. For some this can border on sociopathy, but most people we consider successes or geniuses had this sense of self as their starting point. Let me make this clear, you don’t have to be a sociopath or a solipsist to make yourself your Mental Point of Origin, but that is where these states begin.

Practically every very wealthy man I’ve ever worked for, or with, had himself in mind before a thought was give to anyone else’s consideration in his decision making process; family, spouse, employees, friends, we’re subordinate to his Mental Point of Origin. For most the process would start and end with themselves and their interests. These were the sociopaths. For a few that process started with themselves and ended with the consideration of others, but the process was a pragmatic one that facilitated a maintaining of power balance. As I’ve said in the past, I’m a proponent of enlightened self interest: I cannot help others until I help myself. Nor can I help others as effectively as when I help myself first. It’s not that you ought to become a selfish prick – you should think of the interests of others – but only after you’ve considered yourself in the scope of your own interests and how your interests facilitate the interests of others.

Now that this is settled, let me say that by this metric, Steve Jobs was none of this. According to the people he worked with, his family and friends, Jobs had all the characteristics of a solipsist. Yes, men can be solipsists too, though it’s more of a learned process rather than the innate proclivity women have to be solipsistic. From a business perspective, from a single-minded determination perspective, Jobs was certainly an Alpha. His mindset was that of an Alpha. His relationship history, however, was grossly influenced by Blue Pill idealism. One commonality you’ll find among men we consider great innovators, inventors, discoverers and entrepreneurial geniuses is they are almost invariably Blue Pill idealists with respect to their romantic lives. Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are two current examples of this commonality. Argue their greatness if you like, their personal lives are classic examples of what happens to the Nerd, the autist, the high IQ guy, who’s afforded the money and success to live out their Blue Pill fueled impression of what a relationship with a woman should be like. And predatory women, with the savvy to understand (and have the patience for) the nature of Beta men, make these guys their bread and butter.

“There’s a beautiful red dress there that would be perfect for you.”

I’m not sure I would describe Jobs as an autist, or being on the Asperger’s spectrum, but he was certainly on the sociopath spectrum. Try not to conflate ‘sociopath’ with something negative in this instance. Sociopathic behaviors and character attributes can equally be attractive survival traits as they are evidence of megalomaniacal tyranny. Sociopathy is really by order of degree. Jobs most certainly began and ended his thinking with himself in mind.

My Red Pill Lens read on this is as follows: Something in Steve Job’s subconscious was testing Joan Baez for genuine desire.

I’m fairly certain most of my readers will understand the ovulatory shift implications of a red dress being the item in mention here, but there is a method to Job’s madness in this.

“I said to myself, far out, I’m with one of the world’s richest men and he wants me to have this beautiful dress.”

Joan doesn’t get it from the start here. She presumes that a rich man would want to purchase her affections via the transaction of a gift. Not uncommon for even 41 year old women, and yes, her thinking here is exactly the solipsistic mental point of origin women have a natural default for. Indignant guys will call her a Gold Digger, which is accurate, but moreover you have to look at the process here. She presumes that rich men buy expensive gifts for the women they’re interested in. But in typical Jobs fashion Steve flips the script without knowing that’s what he’s doing.

When they get to the store Steve points out the dress and says, “You oughta buy it.” She looked a little surprised, said she couldn’t really afford it, he said nothing and they left.

“Wouldn’t you think if someone (a rich man) had talked like that the whole evening they were going to buy it for you?”

It would be easy to dismiss this part as default female entitlement, but remember this was 1982, and while women (particularly attractive and famous women) did expect things from well-to-do men, the entitlement levels weren’t anything like they are now. I think she was genuinely confused. She really didn’t get it.

“The mystery of the Red Dress is in your hands. I felt a bit strange about it.”

He would giver her computers, but not a dress, and when he brought her flowers he would be sure to say they were leftover from an event in the office.

“He was both romantic, and afraid to be romantic.”

This end part is Baez’s last attempt to explain why an ‘eccentric‘ rich man wouldn’t buy her a dress he thought she’d look good in. I’m often asked how to go about vetting a woman for a long term relationship, and I’ve written essays about how most men simply never actually have the luxury of holding (much less developing) standards by which to ‘vet‘ a woman’s commitment-worthiness. Most men are not rich men, most men are Betas. Fewer still have the sense of self-value, or the access to so many optional women, as to presume to test a woman’s interest in him in any meaningful sense. Steve Jobs was not a necessitous man, he had, or could easily realize options when he wanted to. But even though he was idealistic in a Blue Pill conditioned sense, his subconscious wanted something it couldn’t buy – genuine desire from Joan Baez.

It’s easy to dismiss the Red Dress Incident as just another quirky personality flaw of a borderline sociopath who didn’t have the Game or the social intelligence to know he was offending or turning off a girl he kind of liked. Indeed, Joan tries to insert her own pop-culture psychoanalysis of Steve in the end; He was afraid to be the romantic she just knew he wanted to be. I expect this kind of rationalization from women who miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime chance to optimize Hypergamy. But what if Steve wasn’t afraid? What if it was a form of his shit testing Joan to determine her genuine desire for him?

As I said, most men don’t have the luxury to shit test women at all. For low SMV men, which is to say most men, the thought of experimenting with testing a woman for desire, much less long term suitability is never a consideration. Most guys can’t believe their luck that a woman actually expressed interest in him because they’ve lacked romantic options for most of their lives. So to consciously experiment with determining honest signals from a woman seems like tempting fate. The Thirst is such that most men would do damn near anything not to screw things up with a girl who’s showing interest in him. Just be thankful your ship’s finally come in, right?

I’ll add again here that most women, particularly in this social media era, are well aware that most men will never vet them for anything beyond baseline arousal and sexual availability. Thirst serves the Feminine Imperative very well, but what about men who are Blue Pill idealists, that can actually afford the options? Men for whom money and access are no object, but still persist in the fairytale the Blue Pill told them was possible?

What I see happening here is Jobs’ request for Baez to buy the dress for herself was a test of her genuine desire for him. Steve could’ve easily bought her the dress, even the whole store, but that wasn’t the point. What Steve wanted was for her to want to please him. His expressing a like for the dress was his subconscious testing her desire to please him.

I think you’d look good in this; It’s perfect for you” isn’t an offer, it’s a request. Will you sacrifice something to please me? 41 year old Joan Baez, could’ve afforded the dress. Hell, Ralph Lauren would have probably given it to her. But she expected Steve to buy it for her; that was her expectation then and it was the source of her confusion right up to Jobs’ biography interview. Her affinity for Jobs was transactional, not based in genuine desire. She failed the test.

Whether subconsciously or by design Steve wanted what most well-conditioned Blue Pill men want today: a genuine connection with a woman based on genuine (preferably unmitigated) desire. The Desire Dynamic is synonymous with The Rational Male. You cannot negotiate genuine desire is a foundational principle of both my work and all Red Pill awareness that follows from it. Steve’s ego wouldn’t allow him to negotiate for Joan’s real desire. His Mental Point of Origin and marginally sociopathic nature wouldn’t conceive it. But consciously or unconsciously he would test her (and other women he was involved with) for her desire to please him.

What is Your Red Dress?

It’s a cliché now for wealthy men to test women’s true interest in them. “Does she love me for me or because of my money/fame/status?” is a Blue Pill fantasy script for Beta men. This has been the plot of many popular stories and movies for centuries now (Coming to America with Eddie Murphy), but it’s a cliché because it accurately describes men’s subconscious coming to terms with women’s mating strategies and opportunistic concept of love. Women don’t fall in love with who a man is, they fall in love with what that man is. If a woman ever falls in love with who a man is it’s only after loving him for what he is first.

That’s some real cognitive dissonance a man has to confront in his life. The indignation that dissonance produces is very much the Red Meat most low SMV men love to wallow in, and commiserate in.

“She doesn’t love me! She loves what I can afford her! She’s a Gold Digger, I knew it!”

We love having women’s duplicity confirmed for us as men. It means we dodged a bullet by not investing in, and wasting our reproductive potential with, a woman who would be a bad bet for our future paternity. It provides the same chemical exhilaration and relief women feel when they think they’ve figured out a man’s “true” nature (Alpha Cad/Beta Dad). In the same way women get off on the indignation of discovering of men’s attempts to deceive women’s existential fear of false signals, so to do low SMV men get off on the indignation of discovering a woman only wants him for his money – not the real him.

What our subconscious truly wants is a pairing with a woman who has a genuine desire for us. Hot, unmitigated, Darwinistic monkey-sex is usually the manifestation of that genuine desire, but there are many more nuanced ways our male psyches will try to determine it. In past essays I’ve had men and women run me up the flagpole for suggesting a man never buy lingerie for his girlfriend or wife.

“How’s she supposed to know what I like if I don’t buy it for her?”
“I love getting something sexy from my man, sucks to be you.”

These, and more like them, are usually efforts in remaining self-ignorant of never having experienced genuine desire from a woman. If a woman has genuine desire for you she will be interested enough in you, and have the desire enough, to know how to please you without you explaining it to her. Genuine, organic desire is the foundation of all healthy relationships between men and women. Women who have genuine, unobligated desire for a man don’t ask him if they can go to Vegas for a girl’s weekend – her desire is for her man. Plates don’t require an active ‘spinning‘ on your part when she has real desire to be part of that man’s life. Women will eagerly share a worthy Alpha (rather than be saddled to a faithful Beta) if she has genuine desire for him.

and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

Genesis 3:16

When a woman has genuine desire for a man she Just Gets It when he suggests that a Red Dress would be “perfect for her” and she buys it, borrows it or steals it to wear it for him.

If Steve Jobs had purchased the Red Dress for Joan Baez, every time she wore it she would be wearing it for her, not for him. Something inside Steve knew this, and something in you does too.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

243 comments on “The Mystery of the Red Dress

  1. This left me thinking in how the opposite is the rule (as what is most frequent). I can clearly see myself wanting to please my wife, learning the details and things she likes and willfully doing things to please her. Now I realize how often I felt let down and grew resentful for a seemingly never ending chain of dismissals. I was willing to please her, but the opposite has never been patent. This is a gold nugget. Thanks Rollo!.

  2. Great article Rollo.

    (Long time reader first time poster)

    I agree – hinting at things you like or enjoy and seeing if she follows through or picks up on it (whether it be specific lingerie/food/etc) is a discreet to see if she has your best interests at heart, or at least puts your priorities first

  3. I knew Steve for awhile. I think you are completely misreading what he was doing.

    Steve above ALL was an artist. If you understood that central point, Steve was very easy to get along with.

    He was trying to get to, (how do I put this) an artistic moment. That red dress was probably very much like the one that Sally Grossman (wife of Dylan’s manager Albert Grossman) wore on the cover of the Bob Dylan album – Bringing_It_All_Back_Home. Baez dated Dylan around the time Dylan made this album.

    Had Baez bought that dress I don’t really think it would have mattered at all.

    Rollo you assert this was a test. I don’t really think it was. Steve did things to see if artistically they came together. Random things seemingly but somehow had a method to their madness.

    If Baez had realized that even in 1980s Steve’s time was worth millions. Perhaps she would have paid more attention. Steve DROVE to a STORE, BOUGHT some stuff for himself, TALKED A LOT ABOUT ONE particular item, then LEFT. You should watch what he did rather than the commentary. If you look at it this way… Steve mostly just needed to buy some shirts.

    What Baez did not realize that getting her in proximity to that dress was one aspect of what was going on. Had the artistic vibes been good to Steve’s eye. I’m sure Steve would have bought the dress and had her model it while smoking a cigarette.

    Steve just looked at the whole scene with his artistic eye and probably realized 42 year old Baez looked nothing like Sally did in 65. And moved on. No real mystery except every woman’s ability to ignore the obvious.

  4. Have to agree w/ Rollo here, as a desire test .

    If it had been me instead of steve I would have been using my artistic abilities to try and help joan at least look good in something. I wouldn’t have paid for it either just a helpful suggestion.

    I dont think a red dress would do it.

  5. Good case in point.

    On our side, we’ve dished out more goods than any of the so called “relationship coaches” ever did.

    Truth be said, most men are not in the position of Jobs (and may never will be that wealthy, options-laden).

    You see, they’re thinking that expensive dresses, et. al. are not something they deal with.

    You see that red dress [or whatever] and you can’t afford it. But let’s say that dress is only $24 and you have that. 24 bucks or 24K, same ballgame.

    You should still do what Jobs did with Baez: don’t buy it for her, even as you suggest it.

  6. Bob Dylan alpha widowed Joan – the gaze is a telltale shown in her ode to her alpha

    That being said this desire ploy is a good tactic every man should use.

  7. The end is so powerful “If Steve Jobs had purchased the Red Dress for Joan Baez, every time she wore it she would be wearing it for her, not for him. Something inside Steve knew this, and something in you does too.”

  8. I was very blue pill divorced and remarried a single parent ( raised my own children as a single parent) at the time my 2nd wife died. Found your books and others info on you tube ( have to be selective in whats useful) your books and videos help in clarity, I now lead a happier life with me as my mental point of origin.
    This to my surprise makes dealing with women more interested and i can vet them for the first time in my life. Then select the few i feel i want to spend my time with though i find that the level of entitlement and shaming tactics changes the dynamics in time and i move on.
    I have not yet fully got red pill awareness as a natrural respose i still have to think on my feet and make sure im still my mental point of origin.
    Im a 62 year young man and thanks for all you do, you have changed my life its never too late and i found that this awareness explained the gut feelings ive had all my life. THANKS ROLLO.

  9. Clean article; logic strong (although ANGRY GAMER has inside point of view). No Grammer glitches. So many head fakes. You’re killin’ it with this essay, and what became your LIFE’S WORK. Outstanding, Marine.

  10. Rollo, could you explain where a woman’s genuine desire comes from? Is it from admiration, respect, or looking up to a man? Is is a self delusion where they just convince themselves you’re the one they must have? Is it some physical chemistry or compatibility where you just happen to be what turns her on? or is it just an accounting where they figure you’re the most of a combination of things they want? I’d be interested to know your perspective on that.

  11. I generally spent most of my time trying to figure out which females I had genuine marital desire for. When I did ever find one I desired, then I’d approach them and see if they had interest in me. Things would then escalate one way or the other pretty fast either into a relationship, or back to searching for someone I would be interested in spending my life married to. I was never interested in competing for a female. Like in a movie. If she wasn’t ready to make me her first priority, I wasn’t interested in vying for her amusement.

  12. I had a conversation with the wife a couple of years ago about how sexy she looked with long hair. She had cut it short when the kids were little because babies always grab and pull their mothers’ hair. I told her that we no longer have babies to grab her hair and I’d like to see her grow it out again. She protested and said that it’s so hard to care for. I replied that going to the gym to stay in shape for her is a pain too, and nothing says “I’m no longer interested in my husband” like a woman who’s getting older and cuts her hair short like a lot of the older Boomer women you see running around that “just want something easy to take care of.”
    Guess who’s got long hair again? 😉

  13. Wow, brilliantly put. You were able to articulate what I understood instinctively about that Jobs-Baez incident. Great post Rollo!

  14. …and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

    Genesis 3:16

    Some of our ancient Rabbis understand this verse to mean that a woman’s desire for a man is usually hidden and subtle, compared to the man’s desire which is expressed openly. They nailed it.

    A famous Rabbi known as the Ramban (Nachmanides, about 900 years ago) wrote that the verse means she will have sexual desire for her man even though she will later suffer the pain of pregnancy and childbirth due to it. The first half of this verse mentions pregnancy and labor pains.

    The ultimate expression of a woman’s desire for you is her wanting your baby inside her. It’s just a different level. She is willing to suffer for your benefit. The biography of Jobs alludes to this too, he wanted children but Baez didn’t. He wanted a woman who wanted him enough to bear his children. She was unwilling or unable to desire him on that level.

    (Rollo, I tried to post this last night but didn’t show up. If it’s stuck in moderation this is the one to keep. Thanks)

  15. Well, angry game view’s to me (about the red dress being a memorie of dylan’s album) just explained much more on how important that dress was to Steve, and by that, how important was to “test her” if she would dress it.

    To put in simple and more pratical ways: Would you partner sacrifice something for you, now? Would her put her best lingerie and have a wild fuck tonight? Cause thats whats alphas are getting, while most betas are getting a good night kiss…

    Yeah, for Steve, it was more sofisticated, it had a reference on a album, it had a history involved….. But the basic idea still the same: it was his request to see how much she would sacrifice to him, how much “genuinely” engaged she was. Most guys would never do this, even “red pill aware”, but his “persona” somehow still echoed on his relatioships, and thats why he did it, even without any “red pill awareness”.

    Love to see those topics on “red pill lenses”. Great article.

  16. Hadn’t realized I was doing this. It explains that “not Alpha” and “not Beta” land I think I inhabit. Not so beta or thirsty to not make these kind of tests yet not so alpha that I get the desire. The I’m clearly not getting this wrong yet neither am I getting this right I find myself in. Interesting.

  17. Steve Jobs had the best and the worst of child upbringing. Chaos from his biological parents. Love and order from his adoptive parents. And then a weird labyrinth of associations with his sister and Chrisann Brennan, his adoptive mother dying yound, and then his getting to know his biological mother and reluctance to get to know his biological father.

    As far as I can tell, he wasn’t sociopathic, more pure functional psychopath in the vein of Kevin Dutton’s description of those born without fear. Or without a filter of worry. Like a surgeon in the operating room who is Super Sane while operating.

    “It’s easy to dismiss the Red Dress Incident as just another quirky personality flaw of a borderline sociopath who didn’t have the Game or the social intelligence to know he was offending or turning off a girl he kind of liked. Indeed, Joan tries to insert her own pop-culture psychoanalysis of Steve in the end; He was afraid to be the romantic she just knew he wanted to be. I expect this kind of rationalization from women who miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime chance to optimize Hypergamy. But what if Steve wasn’t afraid? What if it was a form of his shit testing Joan to determine her genuine desire for him?”

    Right. He was quirky and solipsistic and unafraid to say what he said.

    My point exactly. He wasn’t a sociopath. He was a functional psychopath. In a good functional way. The essence being that he wasn’t afraid.

    Why are you making up that he was a Blue Pill. He certainly didn’t act that way to Chrisann Brennan. Not even close. And what evidence was there of that with Laurene Powell Jobs?

    So where exactly does the premise come from that Steve Jobs was a Blue Pill Idealist? But he used his straightforward logic instead of feels to demonstrate compliance?

    These, and more like them, are usually efforts in remaining self-ignorant of never having experienced genuine desire from a woman. If a woman has genuine desire for you she will be interested enough in you, and have the desire enough, to know how to please you without you explaining it to her. Genuine, organic desire is the foundation of all healthy relationships between men and women. Women who have genuine, unobligated desire for a man don’t ask him if they can go to Vegas for a girl’s weekend – her desire is for her man. Plates don’t require an active ‘spinning‘ on your part when she has real desire to be part of that man’s life. Women will eagerly share a worthy Alpha (rather than be saddled to a faithful Beta) if she has genuine desire for him.

    …and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

    Genesis 3:16

    I don’t disagree with the conclusion. But the premise that Jobs was a blue pill idealist who used his wits, was a sociopath, is a kind of made up premise. What? He was a blue pill sociopath? Like Harvey Weinstein?

    Jobs did have unwavering functional psychopath tendencies. I.e., he was unwavering in his thoughts and actions. I’m not sure many reports actually figured out what was going on in his head, but the outcome of his actions was clear to see. Every offbeat one of them.

    …but there is a method to Job’s madness in this.”

    Most certainly. But his last name was Jobs. And possesive would be Jobs’…

    I agree with Angry Gamer. Rollo is pushing his own narrative. Not Steve Jobs’. Good narrative, false premise. Jobs was more complex than that. He was the definition of Enigmatic.

    And I don’t disagree with Rollo’s objectives. Just the narrative in this essay.

  18. Steve Jobs: “I don’t want people to dislike me. I’m indifferent to whether they dislike me.”

    Lucid indifference. Functional psychopath. Not sociopath.

    Psychopaths have personality traits that, in moderation, can offer significant benefits. These typically terrible individuals may thus have a lot to teach the rest of us.

    The triumvirate of charm, focus and ruthlessness that psychopaths possess can predispose a person for long-term life success.

    A psychopath’s proclivity to live in the moment can arm against anxiety and bring joy. –some key themes from Kevin Dutton’s The Wisdom of Psychopaths

    Steve Jobs: “The musicians play their instruments. I play the orchestra.”

    Left brain musicians vs. right brain artist.

    .

    1. Semantics.

      Psychopathy is essentially a more severe form of sociopathy with more symptoms (hence why psychopaths are more likely to end up in prison). I.e ALL psychopaths are sociopaths but all sociopaths are not necessarily psychopaths.

  19. Rollo, you talked about Gyneolatry.

    It took you a while to learn to pronounce Hypergamy.

    Here is how you pronounce your newfound term:

    GuyKnee….Oll-Attree. Similar to i·dol·a·try (/īˈdälətrē/) or ideolatry

    /ˌīdēˈäləjē,ˌidēˈäləjē/

    And Gyneolator– “GuyKnee- Oll-A-Terr”.

    Not Guy-Knee-O-Late-Tree. Or Guy-Knee-Oh-Later.

  20. Regardless of potential allegoric inaccuracies the fundamental premise still holds – that a desire ploy tactic is a valid and worthwhile tool

    Even if the allegoric supporting premises fall short of his presumed motives I still believe that Steve actually presented a desire ploy regardless of whether he knew it or not.

    Also he could still be manifesting red pill unconsciously but be a blue pill consciously

  21. A valid logical argument is one in which the conclusion is entailed by the premises, because the conclusion is the consequence of the premises.

    My premise is that Steve Jobs wasn’t a Blue Pill Idealist. As witnessed by his relationship with Chrisann Brennan and Laurene Powell (Jobs).

    What evidence is there for that?

    And that he was a functional psychopath in an artistic vein, not a sociopath (…a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience).
    .
    And that he didn’t have to learn to bait Joan Baez with the statement to buy a red dress. That was just a non-sequitur for him to say. Which is probably Rollo’s point of him having lucid indifference. In other words passively, authentically, dynamic Alpha.

    Right conclusion. Wrong premise.

  22. @Rudolf

    Hadn’t realized I was doing this. It explains that “not Alpha” and “not Beta” land I think I inhabit. Not so beta or thirsty to not make these kind of tests yet not so alpha that I get the desire. The I’m clearly not getting this wrong yet neither am I getting this right I find myself in. Interesting.<<<

    There is a “holy shit” moment within every guy who stumble onto the Red Pill and discovers the power of Game.

    It’s like the Stages of Grief….there’s an element of Denial at first…I think that’s where you’re at with the Not Beta, Not Alpha lightning bolt.

    The reality is Alpha and Beta are states of mind. You can be both at different times.

    It’s the choice you make in life and the mindset you adopt.

  23. SJF taking the premise of the allegoric background of who and why Steve Jobs did things is not actually a fundamental premise here. Let’s say the proposition rather than conclusion is that genuine desire can be tested for and that tactics exist to facilitate this. Rollo presented an example of a shit test being delivered, for whatever reason (and we may never know Steve’s true motivator) and that this delivered the results for Steve, that Joan did not have genuine alpha type desire for him. Steve Jobs could not overcome the alpha widow legacy of Bob Dylan within Joan Baez

  24. I dont understand. If a woman can’t love you for WHO you are only WHAT you are….then what does Rollo mean by “genuine desire”? If this chick bought the red dress does it mean she loved Jobs for who he was and not what he was?

    1. I want to eat leafy green vegetables because I know they’re good for me. I desire to eat baby back ribs and drink whiskey.

      “Genuines desire” is a sexual term, as I understand it, and not really a love term. Her desire was not for Jobs, but what he could provide. The test (hypothetically) was to determine this. If a woman “falls in love” she does so with what a man represents, then, in time, perhaps also with who he is behind all of that.

      Eg.: A woman falls for a professional football player she barely knows – she “loves” him because he’s famous, athletic, big, etc.; she doesn’t really “know” him, but rationalizes that away and convinces herself that she in fact does. In time, she might ALSO come to love that he’s funny, has a soft spot for dogs, gives to charity anonymously, has a way with kids, etc. – all the things that make him “who he is” beyond his social standing and profession.

      In the above example, it’s likely that she will ALSO have genuine sexual desire for him, since he’s ticking all of the hypergamic boxes for her. If, on the other hand, he was a fat, middle-aged investment banker with body odor and halitosis, she might still convince herself she’s in love (because her subconscious has sufficient hypergamic motivation to spin that hamster wheel like nobody’s business), but she’s unlikely to feel any genuine sexual desire for him. Two different systems at work.

      Hence why a healthy relationship will start with mutual genuine desire – a woman is “attracted” to a man as a complete package. If she starts from the physical, and then determines that he also “is” what she wants (i.e. his socioeconomic standing matches his physical attractiveness) that sets the foundation for her to later find more and more things about him as a person that she loves. If she starts from the socioeconomic side of things (as Baez likely did with jobs), there’s little chance that she’s also going to happen to find out she’s physically attracted to him.

      Why? If a woman meets a man that is wealthy and influential, what are the odds that she does so by accident? In all likelihood, the meeting is arranged (one way or another) on the basis of what she knows about him, before they’ve ever met face-to-face. The initial attraction is quite literally based on factors which are external to his physical person and have everything to do with the provisioning side of the mating equation. What are the odds that after meeting him she’s also going to find him sexually irresistible? Slim. What then are the odds that she’ll feel increasingly drawn to him, that she’ll find all his quirks and personality traits loveable? Slimmer still.

      I’ll use food as an example again: You read in an article that a certain meal is really good for you, will make you feel better, will extend your life and so on; you track it down and eat it, only to find out that it’s not all that great. It does everything as advertised, but it tastes bland, if not outright fowl, and it’s a pain to prepare. You might stick with it for practical reasons, you might even find a way to tolerate it or find it mildly enjoyable (with enough seasonings to mask the flavor, texture, and aftertaste), but what are the odds that you’ll ever look forward to it? What are the odds that you’ll find yourself in the kitchen at 2AM, standing in the light of an open fridge, scarfing down cold leftovers because you just HAD to have it?

      On the other hand… you’re served an unfamiliar meal at a restaurant and to your surprise it makes you salivate the moment it’s put in front of you, and before you even realize what has happened you’re sitting there staring at an empty plate with longing in your glazed eyes. You order seconds and the same thing happens again. Holy hell that was good! You can’t wait to be hungry again, just so you can have another. Then you find out that it’s ALSO really good for you, that it has all the benefits of the first meal I described. Now you not only desire it, you have good reason to keep eating it, whenever you can. Over time, you find all kinds of subtleties in the dish that only heighten your appreciation for it.

      Which of those sounds more like a relationship based on “genuine desire”?

      (Coda/caveat: I’ll grant that you might try something for health reasons and end up loving it, just as a woman might be attracted to man for his resources/standing and then also find that he’s incredibly physically attractive to her; I’m sure it happens, sometimes. Most meals that give you that insatiable/orgasmic sensation also tend to be full of MSG, HFCS, salt, and trans-fats; a guilty pleasure at best, a bad habit that will put you in an early grave at worst – so it is for woman that get attached to men that give them the tingles, but are terrible for their other needs.)

      1. Since I can’t edit, I’ll just add a correction here: “Downright foul” not “outright fowl”. Also “Jobs” should be capitalized. Let mine be a cautionary tale to you all – proofread before you post.

  25. “If this chick bought the red dress does it mean she loved Jobs for who he was and not what he was?”

    It means that she was motivated to do something to get his favor. That she was the chaser.

    What’s love got to do, got to do with it?

  26. Psychopathy is essentially a more severe form of sociopathy with more symptoms (hence why psychopaths are more likely to end up in prison). I.e ALL psychopaths are sociopaths but all sociopaths are not necessarily psychopaths.

    Yeah in conventional terms. But it is often merely applied as a pejorative for bad guys to all number of hooligans that are merely dysfunctional actors. And not merely having psychopathic traits. Having sociopathic traits, along with psychopath traits.

    Fine. Call it having good traits of psychopaths. The functional, not getting into trouble type.

    In reality, there are functional psychopathic traits.

    Kevin Dutton outlined it well. And I came across him and his book by a dropped mention by Rian Stone about “Being in the Moment when acting. In a good way and in relationship to game. Like a surgeon.”

    “Psychopathic traits includes: charisma, charm, coolness under pressure, fearlessness, focus, impulsivity, lack of conscience, mental toughness, reduced empathy and ruthlessness.

    And in PUA, Game and Red Pill and Married Red Pill–wouldn’t those traits be nice to have? Right?

    “None of these characteristics are inherently bad in themselves,” Kevin Dutton, who studied psychopaths and wrote about the Wisdom of Psychopaths says. “When they become dysfunctional is when they are deployed inflexibly in the wrong contexts.”

    On the other hand, functional psychopaths — according to the book — are able to modulate their feelings to be more productive in business, in politics and in life.”

    The ten professions that have the highest proportion of psychopaths are:

    CEOs
    Lawyers
    Media people (TV and radio)
    Sales people
    Surgeons
    Journalists
    Police officers
    Clergy
    Chefs
    Civil servants

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Dutton

    https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Derm95/Dutt_9780385677196_epub_017_r1_zps6widw2ux.jpg

    See Steve Jobs. His birth circumstances and adoption left him wanting to never not being able to be in control of his circumstances. Which was why he so often acted ruthlessly, cool under pressure (perhaps), fearless, focused, and mentally tough.

    https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Derm95/Dutt_9780385677196_epub_014_r1_zps41bvcziq.jpg

  27. Hence why a healthy relationship will start with mutual genuine desire – a woman is “attracted” to a man as a complete package. If she starts from the physical, and then determines that he also “is” what she wants (i.e. his socioeconomic standing matches his physical attractiveness) that sets the foundation for her to later find more and more things about him as a person that she loves. If she starts from the socioeconomic side of things (as Baez likely did with jobs), there’s little chance that she’s also going to happen to find out she’s physically attracted to him.

    It’s as if people are little moist robots walking around trying to bounce into each other. And things happen by no magic whatsoever.

    Near as I can figure from who and what Joan Baez was. She didn’t give a shit about Beta Bucks or money. Because of her right brain artistry and social activism. Which she only demonstrated that, only all her whole life. And Rollo jumped into a quote from the Isaacson biography without saying she as a famous performer wasn’t wealthy at 41 years old when she was with Jobs, 27.

    She self admitted that she was charmed by Steve Jobs because she described herself as a 100% right brained artist. So what she said was that Steve Jobs was complementary to her and that is why he expanded her mind to make her more complete in their relationship. And she loved him as a cool guy after his death. She was charmed by his left and right brain balance. The red dress comment probably went right over her head. As she couldn’t comprehend it. But the biographer Isaacson was out out to portray him the way he wanted to portray him for sensationalism.

    And she said: “I was scared of intimacy. Many, many people have the same problem because when you are intimate that is when you open yourself up to another person. I was always looking for a way out. It wasn’t that I turned to cigarettes or drugs. I turned to something that I want to do (activism) and I was lucky that I was able to do good for other people. I was 50 when I decided I wasn’t going to live like that any more.”

    And it was said: “Though Baez was married to the political activist David Harris from 1968-1972 (with whom she had her only child), she admits in the interview that the marriage was doomed because she was completely promiscuous.
    And she said: “I was terrified of any intimacy, Baez said. That’s why 5,000 people suited me just fine. But one-on-one, it was either completely transient — after the concert and be gone next day, and then my participation would make me sick — or it was something that I thought was real but just turned out to be heartbreaking.

    5k40 is just trying to square a circle, which is an idiom meaning to solve, or attempt, to solve and impossible (or seemingly impossible) problem or situation. When he should be trying “Square peg in a round hole”– an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist who could not fit into a niche of their society.

    People work out long term relationships all the time. If they would just get out of their own way. And their own hangups. As in Steve Jobs, who was so focused on a narrow vision all the time that he let himself die from a neuro-endocrine tumor on his pancreas which he let fester for too long. Because of stubbornness. He admitted to his daughter why he acted as he did towards her and her mother: “Because I’m poorly made…”

    And Joan Baez who tried to long to help others that she couldn’t help her own relationship game. Because of lack of left brain game. She was attracted to Jobs because of his integration of left and right brain game. And she was 41 and he wanted kids. Go figure. That’s at least two strikes against her, even if she hung with Bob Dylan.

    To each his own.

    (N.B. Nothing of what I said should be construed as men should seek intimacy for the sake of intimacy. That’s often a voiced wish of the feminine. It’s always there in a complementary fashion when things are fine in a relationship without having to voice it. And it is often a ploy for communication–show me your cards–when things aren’t going well. It’s seen as a request all the time when women aren’t getting what they want.)

    1. “She didn’t give a shit about Beta Bucks or money. Because of her right brain artistry and social activism.”
      – She’s immune to feminine human nature? For someone that doesn’t care about money, she has a hell of a lot of it (14 million according to a quick google search). Activism is not a signpost for genuine altruism or unselfishness. The most famous (right-brained) activists are also musicians and actors – there’s a famously selfless group…

      “She self admitted that she was charmed by Steve Jobs because she described herself as a 100% right brained artist.”
      – Since when do you take self-assessment with anything more than a grain of salt? And what difference would her being right-brained make? Read “Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” – very good book, and it demonstrates that “right brain thinking” is much about shutting off the verbal/analytical part of your mind to allow for the visual/perceptual to take over. Where’s the causal relationship, beyond her say-so?

      “…she admits in the interview that the marriage [to David Harris] was doomed because she was completely promiscuous.”
      – This somehow marks her out as an individualist? Her “fear of intimacy” sounds like a textbook excuse for infidelity. She married a famous activist – I wonder why? According to her: “David was this powerful figure… The whole concept of what he was doing was astounding to me. He was this lovely guy, so we got married.” She later says, “When he was in public, he was fiery and looked invulnerable. Of course, I’d see the vulnerability.” Sounds to me like she loved him for who he “was” – i.e. what he represented – and then wasn’t genuinely attracted enough to what lay beyond the persona to be loyal to it.

      “He admitted to his daughter why he acted as he did towards her and her mother: ‘Because I’m poorly made…'”
      – This is not an “admission”, it’s an excuse – literally blaming his “maker” (whoever he thought that might be) for his own shitty behaviour.

  28. This was an incredible post. Your best in years. While I enjoy your youtube videos and live events, the concise way you structure these blog posts are a more efficient use of my time. Keep it up.

  29. Can some of the more enlightened here please explain to me what ” socioeconomic ” is supposed to mean, and what that has to do with male – female interaction and relationships?

    Do many believe that women are basically driven by ” socioeconomics ” in some form?

  30. @Blaximus

    Can some of the more enlightened here please explain to me what ” socioeconomic ” is supposed to mean, and what that has to do with male – female interaction and relationships?

    Do many believe that women are basically driven by ” socioeconomics ” in some form?<<<

    Simply put, it’s hypergamy—a women’s biological propensity to “trade up”…

    Socioeconomic circumstances would tap into a woman’s biological need for security and being “provided” for.

  31. The red dress comment probably went right over her head. As she couldn’t comprehend it.

    Well that is the whole point.

  32. Wala , Sentient

    Hmmm, okay.

    I get hypergamy, but imo it’s a bad move to use something as simple as money/status to satisfy or circumvent it. What’s gonna happen when a more successful Daddy Warbucks shows up with an eye for your dame?

    It’s better to be able to choke out Daddy Warbucks.

    I think women will settle for the economics if they don’t have anything else before them Okay cool, but men shouldn’t ever use that as a strategy. Rollo mentioned low SMV guys in the OP. So if a low SMV guy can’t muster enough cash and prizes, he just gives up(?).

    I think That is more telling than chicks chasing cash. Hypergamy takes the path of least resistance, but nobody ever Really desires that which is easy.

    I read Baez in the story above as Damaged Goods. A highly promiscuous celebrity bedding everybody the way hoes tend to do. At 41 maybe she would have given Jobs a shot, but thankfully for Steve he had other pressing obligations to himself.

    Yes. He dodged a bullet without ever realizing it.

    lol, beta.

  33. 5K40 is ham-handedly (and so is Rollo) trying to say that Steve Jobs was wealthy @ 27 years old when he met Joan Baez in a romantic relationship. And they fucking liked each other. And each had their own game. Tortured as it was.

    And Rollo is the first to say that one should not look at celebrities to explain inter-sexual dynamics. Or at least he did the other day. Go figure. Like I said: False premise to base conclusions on. Both of these two in the narrative were “fat tails”–three standard deviations away from the norm. IOW, something different from the norm was going on there. And it is totally obvious.

    Nice story though, allegedly…

    Socio-economic is code for Beta Bucks. Which doesn’t even apply here. Because it had little to do with the larger narrative. Steve Jobs had more than money. Which I think Rollo’s twisted essay was trying to say in the end.

    And 5K40 is then twisting that into a Black Pill narrative of socio-economics, which neither of the principles in the story actually gave a fuck about. Baez, not security. Jobs not bucks.

    5K40: The Anger Phase is strong there lying in his comment.

    Why not just default to Steve Jobs was charming in his own driven way. And allegedly Baez wasn’t after money, but she was after right brain artistry and going after social justice and causes. And she found a way to expand her thought with Jobs’ left brain artistry. She said it with her own words. She never was out for money. Q.E.D.

    Read the Isaacson book or watch the Steve Jobs Netflix movie. It’s pretty right their plain to see. You can’t glean shit about intersexual dynamics from them. Because all bets were always off with Jobs. He was his own unique brand of uniqueness. Makes a good story, though.

    Will someone explain to me what food preference has got to do with it?

    Edited to add:

    Yes. He dodged a bullet without ever realizing it.

    lol, beta.

    Wait what? I thought Rollo was calling Steve Jobs Beta and here I think Blax is calling him beta.

    WTF? Where is that coming from? He was twenty seven years old and got to screw his idol Bob Dylan’s old lover when she was 41 and presumably very attractive and skilled artist. And then he dumped her after his fling because he wanted to go on to have three more children and that was not in her cards?

    I think the point of the disjointed OP was that he was Beta and he made an Alpha Move with the red dress. It doesn’t follow.

    A show of hands–who thinks Steve Jobs was Beta?

    1. “Black Pill” … I honestly don’t even know where to begin with this one. Socioeconomics is not code for “Beta Bucks”, unless you want it to be so that you can dismiss it. Being wealthy does not imply that you no longer care about money. Being wealthy or famous does not provide you with an exit pass from the rules of the intersexual mating dynamics, and those rules weren’t made with logic and spreadsheets. They just are.

      The person and what they represent to you are inextricable, to varying degrees. Stating this is not “Black Pill”. It’s barely even Red Pill. It’s evo-psych 101. And my whole point is that a foundation of genuine physical attraction is a better starting point because it cannot be negotiated or rationalized. It just is. “Oh, you’re attractive AND you check all the other boxes? Great!”

      “Anger Phase” – c’mon man, put down the cigar and step away from the couch. I don’t know if your armchair diagnosis is projection or wishful thinking or something else, but whatever it is, it’s wrong. I don’t resent any of what I described – it is what it is.

  34. Blax

    What’s gonna happen when a more successful Daddy Warbucks shows up with an eye for your dame?

    Starts with a “g” and ends with an “e”.

  35. She never was out for money.

    Right. She just expected it.

    On to Jobs. He had some reverse cuck fetish with Dylan. So it is very plausible to believe he wanted his hero’s girl to really really like him. Lioe him more than she liked Dylan.

  36. Yes Jobs was wealthy at 27. And famous.

    Jobs was worth over $1 million in 1978 when he was just 23 years old. His net worth grew to over $250 million by the time he was 25, according to estimates.[87] He was also one of the youngest “people ever to make the Forbes list of the nation’s richest people—and one of only a handful to have done it themselves, without inherited wealth”.[21][page needed]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs

  37. SJF

    Jobs was beta. At best, he might qualify as situational alpha, meaning take away all of his ” gains “, and what do you have left?

    Idk about the meaning in banging your idols woman. Who frame this is?

    I read half of Steve’s autobiography years ago, and quit reading half way through. Didn’t hold my interest.

  38. “Jobs was beta…”

    I’m not so sure. What about his late career? From 1997 till 2003.

    And wife Laurene Powell Jobs and three kids?

    You only read half his bio, which obviously didn’t hold your interest for obvious reasons.

    He was obviously fucked up. For obvious reasons. And yet despite the OP making shit up, the narrative makes a great conclusion. Which I endorse. Just not the way the conclusion was derived.

    Or how Jobs eschewed traditional medicine and surgery and died perhaps un-necessarily pre-maturely. Which didn’t come close to proving any of his points.

    Because the whole fucking story is an outlier. A mangled narrative.

  39. For those who didn’t read bio, you might benefit from background on how “different” he was. Like he didn’t bathe for week at time, dropped acid, would burst into tears at company meetings that he controlled, believed vegetarianism would cure his cancer which killed him. He would be considered wack by mainstream analysis. I don’t think he fits into the simple Alpha/Beta framework that Red Pill tries to force on EVERYTHING. He was more in category with artists and off the chart personality creative types. He lived it. It wasn’t an act.

    Joan Baez was ugly. No alpha would touch that with his dick even for the celebrity value. Jobs wasn’t beta bux type either buying women’s attention, like Larry Ellison of Oracle is famous for in silicon valley. Jobs was weirdo who owned his weirdness. Because who couldn’t do any other way.

  40. “Joan Baez was ugly. No alpha would touch that with his dick even for the celebrity value. “

    And where the fuck does that Sentiment come from?

    What is the fact behind that?

    Looks? I’m not sure there are ugly pictures of her on the internet.

    What about the feminine, artist, right brain personality? Who had spirit?

    YGBFSM. And Bob and Steve might have thought differently. Who are you to judge?

    What is your Batman Origin Story, Fact? And why is your first instinct towards Steve Jobs to pile on the disgust for him. Yes, he was odd and defective, despite his genius for penetrating the world and computer shit. Because of Frame and Attitude.

    In the end, he is a good example of Red Pill Game. An enigma, wrapped in a riddle and paradoxical. Still an outlier. And not something that you might want to emulate, behavior wise.

    1. “From a business perspective, from a single-minded determination perspective, Jobs was certainly an Alpha. His mindset was that of an Alpha. His relationship history, however, was grossly influenced by Blue Pill idealism. One commonality you’ll find among men we consider great innovators, inventors, discoverers and entrepreneurial geniuses is they are almost invariably Blue Pill idealists with respect to their romantic lives. Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are two current examples of this commonality. Argue their greatness if you like, their personal lives are classic examples of what happens to the Nerd, the autist, the high IQ guy, who’s afforded the money and success to live out their Blue Pill fueled impression of what a relationship with a woman should be like. And predatory women, with the savvy to understand (and have the patience for) the nature of Beta men, make these guys their bread and butter.”

  41. @Blax

    I get hypergamy, but imo it’s a bad move to use something as simple as money/status to satisfy or circumvent it<<<

    You’re confusing money with the bigger picture of status and security.

    It’s not one thing, it’s a combination of factors.

    But the bigger issue is no woman is going to keep banging a shiftless loser with no job no matter how great his game is. There will always be a more secure confident guy with better game she’ll trade up for.

    It’s too simplistic a concept to say girls are looking for money or a sugar daddy. Some are. But not all.

  42. “His relationship history, however, was grossly influenced by Blue Pill idealism.”

    Where is the evidence and basis for that statement in the written record of his history? Simply his short relationship with Joan Baez? That relationship proves the opposite. And not hardly with Chrisann Brennan.

    The Blue pill: Taking the easy way out, choosing to ignore the harsh reality and live in blissful ignorance.

    Him searching for and not settling for just any girl? Being idealistic and holding out for Laurene Powell and having three children?

    Him saying this in his Stanford commencement speech?:

    Don’t lose faith. I’m convinced that the only thing that kept me going was that I loved what I did. You’ve got to find what you love. And that is as true for your work as it is for your lovers. Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven’t found it yet, keep looking. Don’t settle. As with all matters of the heart, you’ll know when you find it. And, like any great relationship, it just gets better and better as the years roll on. So keep looking until you find it. Don’t settle.

  43. For a geeky alpha, consider Richard Feynman. Then compare with Steve Jobs for similarities and differences.

    Feynman: All during the next day I built up my psychology differently: I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing; I’m not going to be a gentleman to such worthless bitches, and so on.

    Did Jobs say anything like that? Did Jobs ever indicate that he understood the concept of relative sexual value? Idk, just asking.

  44. I think that young women are getting desperate with the shutdown. I was at Wally World wearing my mask with my black cap and sunglasses perched, college jacket and noticed a tall, late teen blonde in “show it” gear walking in my direction along the main aisle. She eyeballed me for maybe five seconds and smiled. My being masked and all, the blonde couldn’t see my expression, but she could see my posture was unchanged even though she could tell I noticed her. Desperate. lol

  45. @SJF I wasn’t piling on disgust on Jobs. That’s your interpretation of what I wrote. Because in your mind their are only 2 personality types for men: Alphas worthy of respect, and Betas. That’s limiting world view. There are personalities outside those categories. Some people say Jobs was alpha because he had irrational self confidence, he believed he was right and everybody else was wrong. But that’s also what got him killed. He said his doctors were wrong, he could beat cancer with vegetarianism, and he was wrong. That’s not alpha. That’s something else. I’m not calling him beta either. I’m saying he’s outside the paradigm of alpha/beta, which is over-simplification that works most of the time but not all the time. Its good bio for reading.

  46. Steve jobs = situational alpha: because rich pseudo genius ( read his bio and compare to all accomplishments. Money made him appear to be a genius. Not the same as actually being one. Nerd and genius aren’t the same thing ).

    That situational alphaism didn’t technically transfer across all aspects of his life.

    He got ” better ” with age, but he was certainly still blue pill heavy.

    As are a lot of men. It’s not a derogatory, only a description.

    Betas can be captains of industry. In fact, society is actually set up in ways to assist betas in succeeding. Most industrial/technical ” leaders ” since the 80’s have been super betas. No hate, good for them.

    Brains do not an alpha make. Money does not an alpha make. Money will get women. Brains, when used to full advantage, will get things, fame and/or money, that will get women.

    There are no barbarians over the horizon that will come and cut off your head and take all of your shit regardless of the height of esteem society holds you. This fact is beta fuel.

    It’s also pivotal in regards to the awful prospects for intersexual dynamics having optional outcomes for average men.

    Society is beta and feministic.

  47. Woz was the genius. Jobs was the salesman. Eventually he got into a position where he could decide what he wanted to sell and hire a room full of geniuses to figure out how to make it for him.

  48. The best way to use something like this to know if she is in to you is this.

    Make the comment.

    (“That would look great on you” or “I really like tight jeans and cowgirl boots” or “dark hair is my favorite.”)

    If she is really that into you, within the next few days SHE will buy the thing that you said would look good on her. SHE will buy 5 pairs of jeans and boots. She will color her hair. She will start wearing these things every time she is around you. You won’t have to buy anything or whatever.

    This is pretty common female behavior. When they are into you, they listen to every word you say and try to implement it.

  49. In your interpretation of Genesis 3:16, you’re missing a huge opportunity to dwell on a biblical underpinning and reinforcement of red pill praxeology. Most reformed biblical scholars interpret “desire” in this verse to mean that the woman shall desire to control or dominate her husband – to usurp his rule.

    It’s like finding the de novo hardwiring of women’s hindbrains right in scripture.

    Here’s the ESV translation:

    Your desire shall be contrary to your husband,
    but he shall rule over you.”

    1. @Polydissident

      In your interpretation of Genesis 3:16, you’re missing a huge opportunity to dwell on a biblical underpinning and reinforcement of red pill praxeology.

      Oh no I’m not,…

  50. When they are into you, they listen to every word you say and try to implement it.

    When a woman is really into you she acts a lot like beta guys act towards women.

  51. Palmasailor
    The default FI setting is (False) Alpha entitlement.

    Many girls from before puberty learn that acting entitled gets them stuff. Even more so in Girl Power world all around us. This is one reason hard negs work on 20-something girls, because….

    Of course that’s a totally empty fraud in the same way most “try hard alphas” (think beachincelinplasticshoes) are a fraud.

    …exactly. That whole resting bitch face thing can be viewed as a shit test. A couple of years back someone, possibly Sentient, stated that the hard-as-nails executrix attitude is just like the candy coating on a Tootsie pop – break through it and the interior is all gooey.

    Women that are seriously interested seek approval, and I suppose that’s what sums up betas.They seek approval.

    Yes, lots of people are always in approval-seeking mode. It’s natural for girls and dangerous for men. In the corporate world it leads to all manner of confusion, too.

    Why I wonder?
    Validation and self esteem perhaps?

    Seeking validation from outside -> what is the point of origin?
    It’s normal for a small child to want to please Mommy, but that’s why in many cultures a boy of 5, 6, maybe 7 goes to his father’s world, because that’s where the learning needs to be. In our world some boys grow to the age of 18 under the sole gaze of “mommy”. It shows in a lot of ways.

    IMO “pleasing Mommy” is a part of it. With all the women teachers in schools that just gets reinforced over and over and over again. The feminization doesn’t stop in high school or college, unless a young man gets into the few remaining non-estrogen zones: various sports, some branches of science and of course math.

    I remember how it was pretty cool in mid-high / junior-high that men were teaching. It was less stressful, mostly. Looking back I see that a lot us were in the “make Mommy happy” mode in upper primary school. The best men teachers were of the “here are expectations, you can meet them if you try” mode. It was more like the Scouts in that way.

    I wonder if that’s what a strong father gives his son? Self esteem.

    Self esteem based on competence and accomplishment, rather than the empty, feminized “You are special, snowflake, you are special!” mode. Also a realistic view of women, this can be difficult. A lot of men are competent men who can teach a son how to fish, how to work on a car, but they are blue pillers who can’t manage Mom.

    On the other side, there are men whose Game is so smooth that it looks effortless, and his woman is almost always in submission. It looks from the outside like “just say a few things and it’s all good”. A young man growing up in that family might have almost zero red pill knowledge, because he can’t see into what’s going on.

    Furthermore it’s not all nurture, there’s nature. Some men lean more towards following than leading, and that can cause mischief when combined with the “pleasing mommy” mindset.

    “Who seeks approval from whom” is a very basic question, and one that a man needs to keep in mind until it’s a matter of unconscious competence.

  52. My army, my government, and my priesthood are one and the same. The grades and the exaltations suffice, one above the other. This is the Magical Hierarchy on which we shall build fair Babylon. Let the Christians in their terror cry, Babylon the Great is risen! is risen! And there is no glory more terrible than she! All we have built is for naught, save her. All our science, all our thought, are now the playthings of Mary the Whore! Our people are free, alas and alack! Our legs have faltered beneath us. Our pathway has grown dim in the fog of joyous rapine. Our God has forsaken us, for we never knew him.
    ___Liber 718

  53. The seal of my Brother is upon the earth, and His Avatar is before you. There is threshing of wheat and a trampling of grapes that shall not cease until the truth be known unto the least of men.
    ___Liber 49

    Or like that Chris Rea song implies:
    “Fool if you think it’s over…its just begun”

  54. Anonymous Reader

    Nice comments about self-esteem.

    And nice question by PalmaSailor about “giving” a son self esteem.

    Self esteem is largely out of a parents hands in regards to raising children after the pressure cooker of the teenage years. Either you handed them tools or you didn’t by this age. But then it’s pretty well know that it is out of your hands and in the worlds hands. Their outside and inside world will shape them after that.

    I know you don’t like to read stuff, Palma, but if you are interested in the subject, please just wander through the Wikipedia presentation of self esteem. It’s pretty easy to look back on why people have decent self esteem and what it can do for a man. Just look at you Palma. You can tell stories (and you have, including in your book on Amazon. A story amplifies where self esteem comes from.) So take a look at this, with a lot there. I’m too lazy to summarize it. But it is very good stuff:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem

    Children should be encouraged by parents at an early age to have self esteem, but later after puberty, the parent should back of, lest they generate spoiled older brats that can’t think for themselves to generate their own competence and confidence based on their accomplishments and mindset.

    And there is some good stuff by an educator named Carol Dweck who described mindset in regards to learning and self esteem. She had a great way to look at moving forward in life after teenage and college years. She constructed something more from inductive reasoning, but also used deductive reasoning. But has been criticized for not being scientifically explicate-able. But so fucking what. A guy named Tom Bilyeu took her at her words and made a great life for himself. And had a few things to say about positive mindset…He also pretty much got red pilled (or I should say, knowing the score without needing red pill) by reading without the manosphere. Just by being smart. And rich. And good at healthy married Game. With super solid Frame.

    She devised this construct that people are on a Mindset continuum “according to their implicit views of where ability comes from. Some believe their success is based on innate ability; these are said to have a “fixed” theory of intelligence (fixed mindset). Others, who believe their success is based on hard work, learning, training and doggedness are said to have a “growth” or an “incremental” theory of intelligence (growth mindset). Individuals may not necessarily be aware of their own mindset, but their mindset can still be discerned based on their behavior. It is especially evident in their reaction to failure. Fixed-mindset individuals dread failure because it is a negative statement on their basic abilities, while growth mindset individuals don’t mind or fear failure as much because they realize their performance can be improved and learning comes from failure. These two mindsets play an important role in all aspects of a person’s life.”

    “In a fixed mindset students believe their basic abilities, their intelligence, their talents, are just fixed traits. They have a certain amount and that’s that, and then their goal becomes to look smart all the time and never look dumb. In a growth mindset students understand that their talents and abilities can be developed through effort, good teaching and persistence. They don’t necessarily think everyone’s the same or anyone can be Einstein, but they believe everyone can get smarter if they work at it.”–Carol Dweck

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck

    She was lambasted by scientific, educational “research”. But come on, it’s just common sense. No need to be psychologically scientific about it all. Self confidence and ongoing performance is just that. Something to have and to go on doing, action-wise as a masculine trait.

  55. This whole original post still sticks in my craw, a source of continuing annoyance…

    “His relationship history, however, was grossly influenced by Blue Pill idealism.”
    Lumping him with Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is just a false premise. How does it even compute? He never did anything like that.

    Still not buying this fabricated premise based on the written history. There is no basis for this. He was an Idealist for sure. Where does the Blue Pill Idealism premise come from?

    And Joan Baez never demonstrated any semblance of Gold Digging ever. She was also an artistic Idealist. To the Max without any Gold in desire. So Gold Digger she was not. She never presumed shit. She participated in the moment. In effect, she was also a functioning psychopath–living in the moment. All her fucking life. For: Causes. And as opposed to she really didn’t get it?. On the contrary she got it every moment along the way. Her life history would suggest she got it with Acceptance all along the way. Unwavering.

    I’m not sure I would describe Jobs as an autist, or being on the Asperger’s spectrum, but he was certainly on the sociopath spectrum. Try not to conflate ‘sociopath’ with something negative in this instance. Sociopathic behaviors and character attributes can equally be attractive survival traits as they are evidence of megalomaniacal tyranny. Sociopathy is really by order of degree. Jobs most certainly began and ended his thinking with himself in mind.

    YGBFSM. Autist? Why Come? (Idiocracy movie reference, of course…)

    Yeah a Sociopath that changed all social behavior with all the Apple company’s changing of social methods to interact with social media. Music, phones, etc. I described above based on Isaacson’s biography that he was more properly a functional psychopath. Psychology can’t even inventory the Kevin Dutton features of psychopath, so all it can come up with in DSM manuals of pathology is sociopath.

    What trauma did he cause to society? Sociopath? How so?

    “He was both romantic, and afraid to be romantic.”

    This end part is Baez’s last attempt to explain why an ‘eccentric‘ rich man wouldn’t buy her a dress he thought she’d look good in.

    A woman’s explanation. In the end she wasn’t pejorative after his death. She accepted his not continuing with her. She loved him. So did all the woman he was with.

    No, it explained that he was merely idealistic. Both about business of computers and computing and about people. Not Blue Pill idealistic.

    But even though he was idealistic in a Blue Pill conditioned sense, his subconscious wanted something it couldn’t buy – genuine desire from Joan Baez.

    Blue Pill Conditioned? How so. He never demonstrated that historically.

    And:

    It’s easy to dismiss the Red Dress Incident as just another quirky personality flaw of a borderline sociopath who didn’t have the Game or the social intelligence to know he was offending or turning off a girl he kind of liked. Indeed, Joan tries to insert her own pop-culture psychoanalysis of Steve in the end; He was afraid to be the romantic she just knew he wanted to be. I expect this kind of rationalization from women who miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime chance to optimize Hypergamy. But what if Steve wasn’t afraid? What if it was a form of his shit testing Joan to determine her genuine desire for him?

    That proves my point.

    He moved so adamantly through his life on a self directed direction that he died for that idealism. Without evidence of blue pill idealism. And some of you are mix mashing Alpha/Beta with Rollo’s so called Blue Pill Idealism. ??? One of these has nothing to do with the other.

    If it sticks in my craw it’s because I get not being Blue Pill while having lapsed into Beta at one point. Yet coming back from the edge of the abyss in relationship game. And being intellectually idealistic for good or for bad. It calls for internal Frame and Resolute-ness.

    And yet, also having a metric outside of oneself. Other people telling you when you are full of shit. Believe them or not. In other words, it’s the same thing if you are a writer. And you get an outside editor. To check your ramblings. Just ask Rian Stone about writing out his book. Or Rollo writing his current book. Or Blax, Sentient or HABD to keep one in check.

    The original premise of the OP has an imagined story, and we all like a story. To a conclusion that I have no problem with.

    But the Steve Jobs narrative, and then his end game leads to a mixed message. Besides his death, how should he have done things different as a story for you? And what are you going to do about that?

    I don’t get what the problem was with his redeeming himself in relationship game with Laurene Jobs. WTH? What was the problem with that?

    I do have a problem with him dying with false medical idealism. Diet to cure a neuroendocrine tumor on his pancreas. Wrong idealistic flag. Because he was Too Idealistic. Has nothing to do with Blue Pill.

  56. SJF

    Have you been eating purple non stop this pandemic?

    And Joan Baez never demonstrated any semblance of Gold Digging ever.

    Focus here. Focus. It’s not “gold digging” as in she wanted the money… It’s her BASE frame of entitlement. That HE was going to buy this for HER, was HER assumption.

    And Jobs flipped the script.

    But I get it you’ve read some book on left brain right brain stuff and are trying mightily to force this into some kind of “hey everything is OK” LTR paradigm…

    I prescribe a heavy helping of red bean chili, adobo rubbed chicken with red salsa and a whole lot of sangria. Get some red on ya.

  57. “I could quite see that he could easily have flipped it to suggesting people go off and do something with their own money and bring it back when it’s proven etc..”

    He let Kane Kramer invent and develop the the Digital Audio Player (and lose the patent rights).
    He let SaeHan introduce it to the commercial market.
    He let AT&T introduce it to the mass market and develop a streaming service.
    He let Diamond Rio turn it into the hot “must have” product.

    Then he took the market.

  58. Palma

    Jobs might not have flipped the script. It may have been his standard operating protocol.

    It probably was his “standard procedure* but it still flipped her script. Just like your OF did.

    It’s generally a good a idea to ne the script flipper and not the flippee.

    FWIW this particular interaction isn’t a referendum on Jobs alpha beta status. Rollo has him as a child with dynamite.

    The act of script flipping and puttung someone in your frame and taking you out of theirs is an alpha trait and the belief behind it red pill all the same.

  59. “It probably was his “standard procedure* but it still flipped her script.”

    AKA “Just getting it.”

  60. “But I get it you’ve read some book on left brain right brain stuff and are trying mightily to force this into some kind of “hey everything is OK” LTR paradigm…”

    Everything wasn’t OK with milf Baez because she was too old for childbearing. She was just a fling. His idealistic logic prevailed.

    Laurene was “the fertile one”. And everything was OK. LTR, kids and all. Idealism FTW.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oLHtaSbT6jg/T23YjHMZGMI/AAAAAAAAAWA/amKUrCCFXu8/s1600/steve_jobs_laurene.jpg

    And, I didn’t merely read it in a book. I live(d) it.

  61. AP 3 May 2020: “Protesters who entered the Michigan statehouse demanded that Whitmer end the lockdown immediately, chanting “let us work.”

    >

    See; the Good Slave does not need to be “told to work”; he wants to work!
    For the American loves his slavery more than his life itself; it is ingrained into the warp & woof of his corporeal being.
    America…the land of the fee and the home of the slave!

  62. Of course the words “work” & “worship” share the etymological frontier; so Good Christian Slaves love nothing more than to waste their lives laboring at meaningless jobs; creating useless consumerist shit in factories; on their life’s trip to nowhere. Then they go to “church” (lolz) to “worship” the Invisible Monster in the Sky; who screws them over on a daily basis; but they “reason” (lolz) this away as His Love for them.
    You are all quite insane; but know it not; which very much defines insanity.

  63. Of course from time to time a Mass Blood Ritual Sacrifice to His Archon Masters is needed; the simple human calls this “war”; and off he will go to give his life for what he thinks is his “country”; but is actually something quite different.
    Well; as Fox News would say, “Here’s what you need to know about (fill in the blank)” What does a lamb really need to know as he is led to the slaughterhouse? Of course if anyone tries to tells him he has been buffaloed; the fail safe brainwashing comes to the rescue, “You are of the Devil!” the Good Slave replies; and that ends any deprogramming efforts.

  64. There will be no more “Christianity” in America when I assume power.
    Think of Trump as Julian the Apostate; who followed that idiot Constantine.
    Trump is the last gasp of Christian America; just as Julian was the last gasp of Paganism
    When Trump’s term has run its course; We will never allow that wicked faith that has brought so much harm on so many innocent souls to pollute the Collective Conscious ever again.

  65. “Is tgis what we are doing now SJF?”

    You’ll have to pardon/excuse me for I don’t know what the question is.

    I’m familiar with “Blue Pill Idealism”.

    I’m not. Guys like Musk and Bezos are just confused about inter-sexual dynamics.

    I hung around with nerds in high school, but never was one. I was never obsequious–obedient or attentive to an excessive or servile degree.. Neither was Steve Jobs. But it helps to see the record. In Isaacson’s biography, or Aaron Sorkin’s movie on Netflix based on the book.

    “I don’t think there can be a “Red Pill Idealism”.”

    Why not? Just blow through denial, anger, bargaining and depression. And use acceptance to do your best in an ideal fashion. You face hurdles? Step over them. And don’t settle for less than your greatest. Which may be limiting for some. Limitless for others.

    …So what you are saying is that a guy that buys into red pill can’t be satisfied? With a Laurene Powell Jobs and kids. Right?

    Idealism. Philosophically–any of various systems of thought in which the objects of knowledge are held to be in some way dependent on the activity of mind.

    “There can be a “Purple Pill Idealism”. I’d be real careful with that.”

    I agree.

    And you can label me with that all you want. But you don’t have boots on my ground. The map is not the territory. I’m not an advocate of purple pill as idealism. Yes, people should be careful with that.

    Any other statements?

  66. Interesting. Though I believe Jobs was more obsessed with Dylan and the Beatles than interested in any woman (apart from any connection she might have with those artists).

    Next stop might have been Yoko Ono.

  67. Hearing about Jobs thinking it’s cool to be with an ex of Bob Dylan puts some additional context to this for me. I don’t picture Joan Baez wearing Ralph Lauren, and I still don’t fault her for thinking he was going to buy the dress for her. It could be argued I’m projecting some things into the date based off limited information. Because I am picturing that he brought up the dress out of the blue and outside of giving her computers (which is like somebody owning a liquor company giving gift bottles), didn’t do much that would be considered very much classically romantic.
    But wanting to get with her because she used to be with Bob Dylan shows me he’s even more dorky when it comes to women than I previously thought. He’s super beta as a high status beta. And I do agree that she came up with the “can’t really afford it” as a way of saving face because she was expecting it. But I still can’t view that without the feeling of she’s not expecting the dress, or anything kind of gift that a girl would want, from Steve Jobs if he doesn’t bring it up. And maybe the computers were a way of him also testing her. As in what he has in his mind of the type of gifts you give to a girl, so he’ll go the opposite way to see how she responds.
    But hearing about the Bob Dylan connection, I still see it as Joan Baez doesn’t really get into designer clothes, wouldn’t normally buy it for herself anyway, but would wear it since he bought it for her and if she, liked it. But no, it’s no where near a case of she’ll it wear it because “my man like me in this”.

  68. Rollo, thanks for all that you do. It looks like the same bot troll is back in the comments of this thread under “the scarlet woman”. Just a heads-up.

    1. Trolls are just the price you pay for a completely unmoderated chat. Wouldn’t want to inconvenience anyone to create sock puppet accounts of each other,…

  69. Trolls are just the price you pay for a completely unmoderated chat. Wouldn’t want to inconvenience anyone to create sock puppet accounts of each other,…

    >

    I’ve penned some quality commentary; it would behoove you to read it and then incorporate it into your thought patterns.

    As for the nasty characterization “troll”; well invective is always the first resort of those who have lost the argument…though this one was over before it began…as they said of the ’27 Series between Pittsburgh and the Yankees…as the Bucs watched batting practice before Game One at Forbes Field…viewing, in genuine awe, Murderers Row…Ruth, Gehrig, Lazzeri, Combs, et al

  70. Behold; I have existed from the Morning of the World; and shall exist when the Last Star Falleth from the Night…
    For I Am Karen; Daughter of Satan; and this board’s bete noire for the last 51 months…My Queendom Come; My Will be done; on Earth as it is in Hell. Amen. Be seein’ y’all down the road apiece!

  71. Rollo, it’s clear that the desire dynamic is the basis upon which most of your work is founded upon and I largely agree with most of it. Reading this article though, some new thoughts come to mind for the first time.

    First impressions based of ones behaviours and personality would indicate to a woman whether you’re Alpha or Beta for her and hence stimulate her ‘desire’ for you. Given this we often see womens desire drop once she realises a guy is not the man she thought he was, but how often does this work the other way around? That a woman starts out without full on genuine desire, but certain elements (alpha tells) then trigger her into genuine desire?

  72. Rollo, thanks for all that you do. It looks like the same bot troll is back in the comments of this thread under “the scarlet woman”. Just a heads-up.

    >

    What does he “do”? He uses the blog to promote his books. Is there any endeavor so vulgar as this which exchanges Truth for Silver? But behold; for even in this unholy endeavor; the webkeeper falls short; for he obligeth not his part of the bargain with Truth; but rather with subjective nonsense; with a few half truths mixed in.

    That you refer to me as a bot is laughable; and just reveals how grossly ignorant you are. In fairness; you are not alone in that condition…the regulars are all male mediocrities; constantly boasting about their non existent conquests; in an effort to keep from going mad; for if they ever accepted the truly pathetic nature of their lives; both at present and hitherto; they would all be in psych wards.

  73. Trolls are just the price you pay for a completely unmoderated chat.

    >
    You spit in My Face quite a bit these last 51 months or so…either banning Me; calling Me a “bot” or a “troll” but NEVER ONCE having the balls to face Me one on one; and meet Me on even ground. That is cowardice; and it demonstrates that My arguments easily trump your own; but you fear having this revealed before your cadre of sycophants; so “ban the ISP”; for “The Rational Male” has no guts. Coward.

  74. Rollo
    Trolls are just the price you pay for a completely unmoderated chat.

    I don’t recall anyone requesting zero moderation. I do recall one or perhaps two morons who caused you a lot of work. Banning them was a fine thing.

    Wouldn’t want to inconvenience anyone to create sock puppet accounts of each other,…

    Passive aggressive is not a good look, Rollo.

    However, it’s your blog. Thanks again for all that you have done and continue to do for men. Looking forward to the next book.

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