Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

I revisited the topic of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) last Saturday on Rule Zero. I don’t like rehashing old debates I’ve learned will ultimately go nowhere. You simply wont reach most people who don’t want to be reached. Once they’ve had some experiential lessons in life, reinforced it with the tribalistic need to affirm the beliefs derived from that experience and then invest their egos in them it becomes kind of pointless. I’m not saying just give up on people, far from it, but do understand what you’re up against. This is why I say unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work, and a lot like triage. Know what’s worth expending energy for.

Most men, and nearly all women, don’t form a belief set based on multiple, independently funded, peer reviewed studies or statistical analyses. We go with experience first and then modify it from there.

I did a bit of preparation for this talk. My schedule last Saturday only permitted me an hour so I wanted to be succinct and throw out at least something new to the conversation. There’s a lot of tribalism in the Manosphere today and it’s no surprise that MGTOW as a tribe in growing – but likely not for the reasons most MGTOW would be willing to admit. MGTOW is becoming atomized and commercialized in the same manner as I predicted the Red Pill would (and has) last year.

What that means is MGTOW is rapidly becoming the same commercial vehicle for grifters that the Red Pill was just a year and a half ago. Life Coaches, Relationship Experts, Fitness Gurus, even Christian men’s ministry pastors are all looking online to find out ‘where have all the men gone?’ When men were found in the Red Pill this is where the grifters would coalesce. Thus, you had every ‘brand-of-me’ self-improvement hack calling himself “red pill”. A few of them still do. A few of them read verbatim from my book(s) and plagiarize it as their own. But more now I see these same grifters referring to themselves as MGTOW without realizing (or even caring) what it really means to men.

MGTOW is the new ‘brand’ that lifestyle ‘coaches’ are adding to their twitter profiles and YouTube channel About pages. They see the potential for growth by association. Even if they get owned in their comments and feeds, adding the tag MGTOW will draw clicks. A few of these ‘coaches’ had a familiarity with the tribe and decided to finally commit in the hopes that it would boost views, others are former ‘power-of-positivity‘ life-coaches who slide into MGTOW because the definition of what makes a man “go his own way” is so loose now that it can align with virtually anything the guy had written about before his new affiliation.

It’s a real short step from “Make yourself your Mental Point of Origin” to “Make yourself #1 in your life” and then to “Go your own way.” I’ve had at least four “dating experts” (one female) claim Mental Point of Origin was their own idea in their subscriber emails as recently as August. Grifters used the Red Pill and are now using MGTOW to legitimize their brands today. In 2015 the MRAs decided to appropriate the Red Pill as their own brand to name a feminist’s “journey of self-discovery” movie The Red Pill. This appropriation is continuing with MGTOW now.

As I said on the Red Man Group back in May, the Red Pill is going to have a real PR problem in the coming year. Everything I predicted in my State of the Manosphere address a year ago has come to pass and I predict it will only intensify in the 2020 election cycle. The Gender War needs a convenient, easy-to-hate villain to point to in order to reinforce the Future is Female narrative.

Very soon MGTOW will have the same PR problem. And once the next Eliot Rodger or Alex Minasian incident occurs you’ll see these grifters scatter from MGTOW like roaches when the lights come on. When there are dead women on the sidewalk somewhere, and the MSM is using terms like ‘MGTOW’, ‘Incel’ and ‘radicalization’ that is when all the ‘tribes’ of the Manosphere will throw each other under the bus. That’s when you’ll know who was ‘playing MGTOW’ for likes.

Adaptation

One thing this re-debate of MGTOW has made me reconsider is whether men are adapting to the new realities of the sexual marketplace or just looking to make their necessities a virtue. At its simplest MGTOW is men refusing to make women the measure of their lives, and then molding their lives to their own plan. This pairs nicely with virtually every pet ideology and ‘positivity’ grift in the ‘sphere today. Even Tradcons will agree with MGTOW if it means “Be the best man you can be“. It agrees with Mental Point of Origin. It agrees with Roissy – “You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.” It agrees with “Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

If that was all there was to MGTOW it would simply be Red Pill. What “MGTOW” life-coach grifters don’t realize is that MGOTW is a derivative of the Red Pill. I’ve always argued that once a guy becomes Red Pill aware he cannot help but live in some different fashion. Even the guys who go into complete denial can’t unsee the truths of intersexual dynamics. It’s what you actually do with that new awareness that sets apart Red Pill praxeology from MGTOW in practice. There’s more to MGTOW than just refusing to make women the measure of a man’s life – it’s also deciding what actually is deference to women. And that’s where it becomes highly subjective.

In my last post I outlined how women were upset there weren’t enough ‘eligible‘ men to marry in the current (westernized) sexual marketplace (SMP) today. Of course the two most common responses were either:

  • Women are the victims of the SMP they created. Women’s solipsistic, socially enabled entitlements to an ‘economically attractive’ man (a man who exceeds her own productivity by 58%) only proves the point that women’s social media bloated egos have made them unrealistic tyrants. Now their beliefs and actions have come home to roost.
  • This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

One point I struggled to make on last week’s show was that I wondered if MGTOW believed that, from an evolved perspective, men and women are better together than they are apart. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to pursue that question in depth; do MGTOW largely believe that, if social circumstances were different, men and women evolved to be complements to the other and the best social outcome would be for the sexes to be together rather than segregated?

For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. The Gender War of today exists because of a systematic segregation between men and women (don’t @me with the cultural marxism/’evil juice’ shit for the moment). Honestly, I’m sick of reading about how negative it is to merely point out the realities of this ‘gender cold war’ by Success Porn grifters, but is not MGTOW an adaptation to this segregation? Is not MGTOW an exacerbation of this segregation. When I read mantras like ‘Dogs, Dudes and Dolls’ it sounds an awful lot like ‘Cats, Girlfriends and Vibrators’.

Is MGTOW an adaptation to the conditions in a sexual marketplace that was (and still is) contrived by feminism/gynocentrism?

The following quote is from a long time commenter and friend Deti. This was from a larger discussion that began here if you want to get some context. Sorry guys, I just don’t have the space to repost the whole thread, but I don’t want this to get lost. Hopefully, it will inspire further discussion in this post’s comments:

I read Novaseeker as saying in his comments on this post, that women have adapted within this particular milieu. In other words, women noted the changes and have adapted to them. It helps that the changes were geared to them and prepared with them in mind. But women have adapted, and men have not.

About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women. Women responded to and lived within that milieu in a number of ways.

Using soft power, manipulation, deceit, subterfuge, behind the scenes machinations. Most women were more or less OK with marrying an OK guy, having OK sex, and living an OK life.

Of course, sometimes women cheated on the downlow. Sometimes women cuckolded husbands. I mean real actual traditional definition of cuckolding, which is a married woman getting pregnant by an Alpha and passing the child(ren) off as the Beta Husband’s. There’s no way to know how often that happened, but it wasn’t really rare – Maybe anywhere from 5 to 20% of children then weren’t fathered by their bio-moms’ husbands. In rare cases, not marrying and becoming spinsters, living as bohemians or as “favorite cousins” or “favorite aunts” with male relatives, working as teachers or seamstresses or some other job, and being live in nanny/maid. In rare cases, divorcing and living off family money or a husband’s alimony money. Living as widows and not remarrying.

The point is that women learned how to adapt. There are a lot of reasons for that, but they did adapt.

The main responses men have used today to adapt to changing circumstances have been:

  1. Game/PUA/Seduction – Use the changes to men’s advantage and go for easy sex and the bachelor lifestyle.
  2. MRA – Fighting the changes to advocate for either equalizing the laws or rolling them back to a return to Marriage 1.0 and pre-sexual revolution status.
  3. MGTOW – Check out of the new system, refuse to support or participate in it, and eschew relationships with women to varying degrees.

About, oh, 20 years in, I think we can safely say that option 2) is dead in the water and has been for some time. About the only real reforms here are that divorce and family laws are slowly, very, very slowly, moving toward 50/50 residential custody and away from alimony (except in the case of longer term marriages with breadwinner spouse/dependent nonemployed wife). Unless you have been married more than 20 years and support a housewife, you probably will not be paying alimony except for temporarily. Thats about the entire sum and substance of how “equal” it’s going to get between men and women.

That leaves 1) Game; and (3) MGTOW.

It’s hard to tell what will come out of this. I think we can say:

• Marriage 1.0 is dead and we are never going back to it for at least 2 more generations. If you think you’re going to have a “traditional marriage” where you don’t have to do much to maintain it or you can let up on your attractiveness levels, think again. Because that is not going to happen. If you’re going to marry a woman, you need to improve your attractiveness, marry a woman who is not financially dependent on you, and cultivate your own life separate and apart from her. You need a contingency plan in the event the marriage goes south. And with all that, you need to consider whether you want to risk bringing kids into the mix. You absolutely need a prenuptial agreement, even if it gets judicially torn up or modified later.

The bottom line is, people are still marrying, it’s just that it’s all being pushed out later and later, and people are staying single longer and spending less time married. Many women are meeting the men they eventually marry in their early to mid 20s, and then marrying in their late 20s and early 30s. That’s a paradigm that’s increasing in frequency; this idea of long term dating and engagements lasting 2 to 5 years while both the man and woman establish their careers.

If you want long term relationships you should consider marriage alternatives like living together, or being exclusive while living apart. You absolutely must avoid at all costs these polyamory/polygyny situations, and open marriages. You absolutely must avoid women who want to continue AF’ing it even after they marry. That must be an absolute no go, not an option, ever.

• Men have to improve and increase their sexual attractiveness to create, maintain, and sustain relationships with women. You can’t let up here. That’s IF you want relationships with women.

• More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.

For most men, avoiding women entirely, except for paying hookers, is a no go. The thirst is that strong. The male sex drive is that potent. Most men want to have some contact with women, even if it’s just random hookups now and again. And the only way to do that is to make yourself as sexually attractive as possible. That just is so. Women are the ones who pick sex partners, and they have no problem with sharing attractive men with other women. So if you want sex partners, you have to make yourself sexually attractive. And you have to know male and female sexual nature, so that you know what you’re getting into, you know what you’re seeing, you know what women are doing, and you know what women really mean when they talk.

For men, improving one’s own attractiveness increases one’s power in the market. It increases his ability to control some of the selection process. It gives him an abundance mentality. It gives him the power to walk away from situations that disadvantage him. It gives him the ability to tell women “no” and to reject women who cannot or will not give him what he wants and needs.

On the other hand, going your own way can also increase your power in the market. It maximizes your control over your own life. It sharply reduces your responsibilities to others, and increases your opportunities. It frees up your resources to expend the way you want. Sharp reductions in responsibility means a sharp reduction in the needed resources for day to day living, meaning you can work less and increase your leisure time.

I think that more and more men will go pure MGTOW, which is essentially “make the best of a tough situation, be single, and don’t have a family. At least that’s better than getting divorce raped and it’s less work than going to the gym, getting in shape, and eating clean. This way I can eat what I want and work 30 hours a week, and live by myself in my apartment”. It’s kind of similar to women 100 years ago, where the path of least resistance was for Bertha BigGirl, Martha Dumptruck, and Plain Jane to “find a decent, OK man to support me, and probably have at least 3 of his kids. At least it’s better than living with Mom until she dies, and then having to live with my brother and his wife, and taking care of their kids.” And similar to the spinster, the MGTOW will be low status, or at least perceived as low status. But for the spinster and the MGTOW, their lifestyles will be at least better than whatever else they could have gotten.

Guys, Nova is absolutely correct in that men by and large are not adapting.

I think that what’s going on is that many men are saying “want to stay the same, don’t want to do a lot of work, but I still want women to be attracted to me and to be able to date a lot and eventually get married and have a family like (a) mom and dad had when I was growing up; or (b) like I didn’t get to have growing up.” Well, you can’t have that, at least not without working for it. If you want something you’re going to have to work for it. If you want women and sex, you’re going to have to make yourself attractive to women. And the way you’re going to do that, the only way to do that, is to stand out. And the way you stand out is by improving every area of your life – your job, your body, your finances, your lifestyle, your hobbies, your social acumen, and everything else that involves you going through your life.

The funny thing is that when a man stops caring so much about it, forgets about women, and sets about improving his life, he starts attracting women.

That’s the current state of things, I think.

I don’t disagree that we’re presently at a turning point in intersexual relations. After the advent of unilaterally female controlled birth control and the Sexual Revolution that followed the upheaval in how men and women come together and relate was inevitable. Now that we’re 50 odd years past that point we’re figuring out how reproduction, love, marriage, and something as simple as boy-meets-girl is going to look for future generations. The internet and a social media acculturation on a global scale has seen to it that it will likely never look like it did under the old social contract. There’s a theory that post-agrarian societies experienced a similar shift in intersexual dynamics in our ancestral past. Socially enforced monogamy was the obvious intersexual shift.

Right now we’re seeing a similar shift in intersexual relations. Is it simply better for men and women to live segregated lives? I don’t believe so, but it seems like a larger cultural narrative believes it’s time for both men and women to go their own ways. Until one side concedes, fuck any notion of evolved complementarity is the narrative I guess.

I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting. They always have. It’s that the adaptation is counter to what we might hope is the natural order between men and women.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

560 comments on “Are Men Adapting to the New Sexual Marketplace?

  1. Wasn’t it said, “The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” …as quoted by none other than Albert Einstein? The machines and AI are coming, if not already here influenced our evolutionary progress. Deal with it and do the work. Great article. Informative.

  2. A couple of comments.

    @Rollo, for me!, the best part of all your writings are the learnings, conclusions you and others you synthesize, and specific actionable information you provide. The fair weather grifters will always be a part of any growing group, and I guess I am less interested in the details of that (beyond what it means for me, my kids, friends, men in general, etc.). I know that this is your world, so please understand I mean no disrespect. This is simply my input.
    The absolute gravy in this post was your framing of Deti’s comment and the comment itself. This quote below is gold and puts well (in the 2nd sentence) what I have thought for a long time.

    “More and more men will go pure MGTOW and will severely minimize if not eliminate their relationships with women. For a growing number of men, this option is going to be the best one, because (a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.”

    Without going into personal details, one relative I care a lot about has gone up the learning curve of “getting” women. He is in very high demand and has social confirmation going for him: he is effectively spinning plates so is beyond (a), and will likely never lose all of that. I realize there is a lot more to learn, but he is doing well so far.
    The other, younger, male relative has not begun the journey, and would like him to get past (a) as well so that he has options. If either want to go MGTOW after succeeding prolifically with women for a period of time, at least they (and I) will know it simply because they want to, not because they are “buffering” their failure.

    Thanks, as always!!

  3. I think there are different segments/groups of MGTOW.

    I could be wrong, but it seems there are:

    1. The men who are truly going their own way- and making themselves their mental point of origin. I’ll put the Monks in this group as well.
    2. The Incels: who claim MGTOW only because it’s the closest form of red pill they can identify with. “Dollbangers” may also be in this group.

    And 3. The guys who take on the philosophy of “women aint sh**” but still may get with a woman here and there for just a pump and dump.

    I’ve seen some MGTOW YouTubers who have different takes on how to handle the MGTOW lifestyle. But I think what relates all three categories is a lack of understanding on how to handle the rage (ie; red pill rage) in their 5 stages of awakening- so they inevitably quit on trying to make their lovelife work.

    Just a question that’s off topic, who was the first MGTOW’er? I’m thinking Al Bundy with his No MA’AM run on the Married with Children show. Could he actually be the father of the manosphere? Lol.

  4. Both men and women have adapted, no question.
    I think men have adapted and responded more slowly however.

    What I find so interesting however is the readiness with which so many are now wanting to deride the Mgtow guys as some of kind of losers in life, unattractive, fat failures and Darwin Trophy winners, and oh so scared of women.

    I mean, Jesus Christ, set aside for one moment the brutal dating scene, prolific STI rates, SSRI abuse, the underwhelming value proposition of Marriage 2.0, the reality of Divorce Corp, the Cock Carousel, Open Hypergamy – set it all aside for one moment.

    Notice how quickly and expediently people either gloss over or outright ignore the impact of VAWA, YesMeansYes and now MeToo.

    Scared of women? Gee, ya think?

    There is no remedy for any of this. Sacrifice yourself anyway, otherwise you are a fucking loser.

    And then, as if that’s not enough, you have a bunch of Yoda-esque dick-swinging contestants online telling you about how you’re too beta, you don’t have enough frame, your cock isn’t thick enough, you’re too fucking short, you’re are too fat, too soft, your body language is all off, and goddammit pansy, you’re not swole enough……And that is why you fail!

    Let’s imagine a guy achieves the height of all of these instructions.
    What’s his a prize?

    A fat, contentious, overbearing, STI-infected, SSRI-abusing, bucked-off carousel rider having only a few meters of sexual runway left who now has found herself and wants to SETTLE on him.

    This sounds like an exaggeration. Except it is not. It’s the new normal.
    So maybe all of us need to adjust the lenses with which we are looking at the current field of play.
    I think the game looks the same. But the boundary lines, positions and responsibilities and roles are all fucked up.

    I do agree with Rollo’s earlier comments on Mgtow where on a Youtube video he had said something to the effect of sure, I get Mgtow. And sure, you can withdraw from the dating scene and SMP, but you cannot ever abstain from your burden of performance or from intersexual competition. That you cannot escape.

    This is true in my observation and experience.

    I have to stay physically fit, work hard in my career and advance, have my financial life in order, and put myself first in priority. But there are now people in the RedPill community saying that unless you beg for pussy and blowjobs, then you are a doll fucker.

    The RedPill used to be about the truth and awareness of human sexual dynamics. It’s definitely been co-opted by hucksters and PUAs who conveniently deny YesMeansYes and MeToo in the education world, the world of work, the military, the dating scene, religion and even marriage.

  5. While I don’t disagree that there are basically two choices men can make but it completely ignores the biggest reason that men are checking out. The inflated ego of women. Most women are Honda civics but they are all demanding Ferrari prices.

    I’d even argue as the “price” (effort men need to put in) increases because of women’s ego, they are actually decreasing in value. How many women still act feminine, cook, are good with children, and see relationships as a partnership instead of a dominance competition?

    I meet women all the time but finding any worthy of marriage or even a long term relationship is a nearly impossible. Maybe I’m in minority but my single status has less to do with my inability to meet women and more to do with I think most aren’t worth my time.

    Maybe I missed something but I don’t think your post covered me very well. You make the assumption that the lack of effort has to with inability to get laid while I’m actually just disgusted with the product being sold to me. I do live in the biggest blue shit hole city thought.

  6. About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men and the sexual and marriage marketplaces were prepared with men in mind. They were prepared to advantage men and disadvantage women.

    Citation needed. This sounds like it’s parroting the Christian Feminist article of faith that “feminism only came about because men were abusing their authority over women”.

    I’m no scholar, but it seems to me that — rather than being geared toward MEN — the SMP and MMP in the West were geared toward the preservation of social order. In other words, for the good of EVERYONE. Yes, this implicitly meant that gender roles were built into the apparatus. But the only way to get from here to Deti’s claim is to assume that traditional gender roles = oppression of women by men, de facto.

    That line of reasoning will get you a long way in Gender Studies class at your local university. I, however, am skeptical of its use as an interpretive tool.

  7. Very few have adapted. The point on tribalism estends to every facet of modern life. People are incredibly easy to influence because they don’t understand how they have been made weak. All schooling is anti education on a personal level. Sure learning law makes you a few shackles but your only learning some one else’s agenda. The whole of western society is a control system. Make them weak through schooling, (anti education) divide them through scams such as personal development, racial issues, gender, sexual orientation, party politics, global warming. Everyone wants to swim with the same fish in the same sea in Nice comfortable shoals. The human brain is wired like that. They knew this thousands of years ago. Today its just the most sophisticated, subtle exploitation of the humans we have ever seen and the whole feminism thing is just a part of it. Rollo – Your the only person I listen to on this subject. Your blog post deserves a better response than the one I’m hashing out but it’s 10pm and I’m about to hit the sack. I have finally come full circle from RM series. My relationship with women has been through many phases since reading your book. Some dark and I sought help with. Ultimately, whilst I give women no quarter these days, I see them in a different light. I have a bit more genuine compassion for what they are up against too. I mean in terms of let’s call it woman’s world – Having to wrestle with. declining SMV, being idealised ad sexual used. And so the unhpful things that Feminism leads them to beleive. But best of all I waste little time and give very little attention to women at all and am very focused on my life which I thoroughly enjoy.

  8. I think Deti leaves out some obvious points, I’m not sure if on purpose or not. Is Deti a woman? First, Men and women also have an abundance of porn, devices, robots soon, and entertainment options to fill their time. I think this works more in men’s favour, as we are more interested in objects, and women in people. Second, why would men need to up their game if women find that they have less options, or as they like to put it, “where are all the real men?” Last, men don’t only work hard in all sectors of life to attract women. Men enjoy planning, building, and maintaining themselves, their tools, and their life. That doesn’t require a woman and a man that tries those things for women will fail. I see so many factors in this new situation that favours men, not necessarily society. Men are slow to adapt because we weren’t the ones who first decided we were going to have a big party and throw away the old system. Now that we are giving up on that system and are starting to behave strategically, there is no doubt who will come out the winner in the end. It’s nature. Nature always wins. Men survive alone. Women survive by finding men to protect them.

  9. Male social behavior needs the rigorous Red Pill lens that we have put on women.

    Part of the allure of MGTOW is the way they call you a pussy-begger to terminate any debate.

    They learned that as a way to dismiss the same men that set up hoops to jump through for them as well.

    If you can’t win, why play? Many men become their own brand so that they never have to play:

    “Who are you and why should I care?”

    ever again. Life gets hard but what do you do as a contingency when this thing takes place?

  10. About this bit in your quoted text:

    “(a) they did the work and still couldn’t attract women; or (b) they don’t want to do the work and it’s easier to stay as is than to try.”

    What about (c) they did the work and found that the women they attracted were not suitable for any relationship they were interested in?

    I had several girlfriends in my younger days (I’m 60 now) and I’m grateful to God that I did not get stuck with any of them. Any guy who did the work and still couldn’t attract women should be grateful to God for that, too.

    If a guy doesn’t feel like doing the work, as you put it, then there’s really no reason he has to, is there?

    God created us male and female, but we have rebelled against God and we’ve collectively poisoned our relationship environment and now we live in a form of Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia, where are social framework has broken down and we are headed for extinction. The only way to avoid the impending catastrophe is to annihilate the nihilists who destroyed the social environment for male and female relations, but it’s probably too late even for that.

  11. @constrainedlocus, I mostly agree, and I will add that a man’s age is a significant factor. There are many men who find themselves in divorce after the age of 50, and after long marriages. I believe that, when those men consider the hard ridden and bat shit crazy women that are available, they simply decide that the juice is not worth the squeeze in the time that remains.

  12. I don’t see one word of understanding of what MGTOW actually is written here; just the usual idea that MGTOW are basement dwelling losers who aren’t willing to “step up and do the work”… Most of the MGTOW I know are great and highly succesful men who made a superbly rational choice about the women of today – they are not worth ANY kind of effort or investment in terms of time, money, mental or emotional energy.

  13. I don’t see one word of understanding of what MGTOW actually is written here;

    Why don’t you explain it?

    …just the usual idea that MGTOW are basement dwelling losers who aren’t willing to “step up and do the work”…

    Sure. It’s a judgement. It’s what men do in groups of men.

    Most of the MGTOW I know are great and highly succesful men who made a superbly rational choice about the women of today –

    That’s a judgement. Easily judged else-wise by another man.

    they are not worth ANY kind of effort or investment in terms of time, money, mental or emotional energy.

    So is that…Easily judged else-wise. And doesn’t hold water most of the time. And depends on environment and on the basis of what is out there. Or the success in attracting a girl that is worth any kind of investment, even though she doesn’t need investment. It depends on a myriad of variables.

    Your thesis doesn’t hold water in my milieu. So therefore it is not a universal thesis or help to advance the discussion.

  14. The burning question in my mind while I read this essay, is: What if I am attractive and do stay fit, simply because I want to, but don’t want to participate in the SMP any longer?

    I’m 40 years old and had plenty of sex in my 20’s and 30’s; been engaged twice but never pulled the trigger. I found the Red Pill after my last bad breakup, and decided I just wanted to focus on myself and my kid. I saw the risks in this current MeToo culture and decided the juice just wasn’t worth the squeeze. Why risk my freedom and way of life for sex?

    Is there anything about my strategy that isn’t noble? If I’m not wanting to “spin plates” or hit the bars looking for a piece of ass every Friday, am I somehow any less of a man?

  15. So, a couple of things.

    It always seemed to me that the nuclear family was never, by itself, the center of civilization. It was necessarily nested within a village/town/religious ethic. Large groups of families were on the same page, and the pairing of men and women through some sort of binding agreement had created the stable environment within which to raise children and prosper as a culture.

    The trad cons are trying to move forward with that same script, and they are having a tough go of it.

    Now, there are only attenuated “villages”, just the matrix and “society” and everyone bouncing off each other. Living in a big city, even among the “intact” tribes that survive and furtively coexist here, there is a lot of stress on couples to stay together and make it work. It’s hard to maintain tribal integrity and collective values when the boundaries – due to tech, social media, and the rest – are so porous.

    I wholeheartedly agree that with SJF, Blaximus, and other OMGs here who are saying it’s possible to get back to a healthy marriage, but a close look at what they’ve shared shows that they are co-creators with other like-minded families and groups. I imagine the OMGs are not blind to the fact that it’s crucial to find “your people” in this mess. Even with a bottoms-up approach, one must find others along for the ride.

    And this is why MGTOW is dangerous for the individual man. I’m not making a judgement, moral or otherwise, yet the risk of finding yourself older and without a healthy community around you is high if you abscond from women entirely.

    For both the MGTOW and PUA, it’s crucial, for their own personal health to find their own community. Rollo has a few posts about finding other like-minded MGTOW men. That’s a good idea. Humans are best working on themselves individuality while being a part of a greater whole. I’m sure many of them are which is great.

    In fact I was MGTOW without even knowing it before white-knighting myself over a decade ago. Thankfully I kept the good men around me throughout that time. Without them, I don’t know where I would be.

    TL:DR
    Whether you’re MGTOW or PUA, you’ll still need the give and take of a community around you to be healthy. Be careful of isolating oneself too much.

  16. So what you are saying is that there are not women “worth it” out there, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

    But at the same time you are not (as Rian Stone points out) defining what your container words “squeeze” and “juice” actually are…

    “Is there anything about my strategy that isn’t noble? If I’m not wanting to “spin plates” or hit the bars looking for a piece of ass every Friday, am I somehow any less of a man?”

    As judged by a fellow man? By some of us?

    Yes. Most certainly.

    But are you asking for external validation?

    Are you ego invested and self-rationalizing?

    That’s no way to go through life, telling yourself something that is limiting. Telling yourself to something that is making a virtue (out) of necessity.

    “…hit the bars looking for a piece of ass every Friday…

    You could have used the term worthless bar sluts for a better Strawman Argument…

  17. Damn square we are adapting. Men are problem-solvers.

    Here’s the rub:

    Rorschach any intersexual dynamic article anywhere written by a woman and we find:
    1. Entitlement;
    2. Victim mental perspective;
    3. New since Meeee Tooooo — mob mentality.

    Combine the above with the emotion>reason of the woman, and ANY situation involving a woman is highly unpredictable and therefore hazardous. (In medicine nothing is being done differently — too damn busy and tired to be thinking hanky-panky — but suddenly the discipline is besieged with claims of physician impropriety.)

    Not MGTOW and much success before the madness, but have now taken to wearing a “wedding” band to ward off approaches and (hopefully) potential for allegation — and even this is not 100%. Compromise at your own risk.

    This problem, under current circumstances, cannot be triangulated to solution so indeed — we are adapting. Besides, given today’s woman, skydiving is infinitely more rewarding — and far safer.

  18. “For the last 60 years feminism has effectively driven a wedge between men and women. “

    I agree, but did you mean to speak about politics?

    “I do disagree with Deti in that I think men are adapting.”

    Looking at it from an evolutionary perspective, many men aren’t reproducing, nor are women. Their genes are simply being filtered out.

    From an evolutionary perspective, any “adaptation” that doesn’t reproduce its genes is irrelevant because (say it with me) it’s about babies all the way down. Such adaptations are simply invisible in a biological sense.

    Let’s stick with an evolutionary perspective on the SMP.

    Note to those seeking to win the Darwin Award: Accept your Darwin Award if you like, but don’t whine if fathers give you shit about your pathetic choice. lol

    I think that maybe part of the aversion of young men to babies and reproduction is that young men have accepted the feminist frame that babies are women’s property and that men shouldn’t care about babies. I note that paternalist societies like you find in the Middle East consider children the property of the father rather than of the mother. In ancient times you find that men cared very much about babies.

  19. It depends on perspective and ( learned ) beliefs.

    Men saying ” they aren’t worth the squeeze ” or some variant is exactly the same as ” there are no good men “.

    It depends on where one lives and how interactive one is with his environment. Nowhere is everyone” crazy ” , but you will see that it it’s what you want to believe for whatever reasons.

    If I lived somewhere where it was impossible to ” find a woman worth x “, 2 things might happen, 1) I’d fucking move. 2) I’d have to look at why I see what I think I see.

    This boils down to a problem of perspectives and reactions.

    The mindset of ” I fell off my bike while trying to learn to ride it…all bikes are shit ” might apply aptly to your particular situation molded by mindset, but it doesn’t make a rule.

  20. “About 100 years ago, it was all geared toward men…”
    This sounds too much like the claims of feminism and their belief in the all-encompassing “patriarchy”. It may have been geared more towards men then women, but women had a part in shaping it too.

    But regarding the male sex drive. Yes it is potent, to the point where most women simply can’t understand, unless they take bulk testosterone. But it decreases after early 20s. Other factors like stress, overwork, being out of shape can decrease it too. And anti-depressants a factor, a lot of men are taking those now too. So for a lot of men who’s libidos have dropped, and who aren’t particularly attractive to women, going hard MGTOW really would be the path of least resistance.

    And another thing too is that a lower libido can be more easily satisfied with online porn and masturbation, which adds a further disincentive to putting in the hard work to attract women. I’ve had arguments with women online about this issue. They’ll go “my husband/boyfriend claims to have a low libido yet I know he still looks at porn. Is he ‘addicted to porn’?”

    I’ll tell them that while porn can become a bad habit, the main issue is that with a low libido, porn and masturbation can become more satisfactory than the real thing. They usually don’t seem to understand that. I suppose that comes down to the difference between the male and female sex drives and how men are more visual.

  21. Palma
    “In THEORY, and formerly in practice, men and women were complimentary and better together than apart.

    But looking at current women in the current social and legal structure, then in the majority of occasions, you have to come to a very different conclusion.”

    Masculine is complimented by Feminine. Feminine is complimented by Masculine.

    When you have feminine men and masculine women, there is no compliment.

  22. ConstrainedLocus

    “And then, as if that’s not enough, you have a bunch of Yoda-esque dick-swinging contestants online telling you about how you’re too beta, you don’t have enough frame, your cock isn’t thick enough, you’re too fucking short, you’re are too fat, too soft, your body language is all off, and goddammit pansy, you’re not swole enough……And that is why you fail!”

    Short one, typing one handed what with the dick swinging and all…

    Beta, frame and body language are real. The rest is just your Bullshit.

    What Game does that all this wailing and gnashing doesn’t is give you actual, predictable and repeatable methods to succeed. But as Yoda says “there is no try”…

  23. Porn watching isn’t low libido. It’s a Buffer.

    And it is Stasis personified.

    So are MGTOW and fucking dolls.

    It is The Red Queen–(Lewis Carroll’s Red Queen from Through the Looking-Glass, a character who has to keep running to stay in the same place…)

    Adversity shouldn’t make you want to run and hide, or stay in the same place.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/26/buffers/

    As a Man, you are going to face rejection in far more facets of your life than just dealing with a woman. The buffers you learn in one aspect of your life will be just as encumbering when they’re transferred to another aspect of your life. All of these buffers listed, and many more, become indicators of how you confidently deal with adversity. Some make you look like a beta-herb pussy, others are subtle and nagging parts of an internalized personality, but dependence upon them incrementally reveals your real character to a woman. Are you Alpha enough to take a rejection on the chin, smile and confidently come back for more? Or will you run, will you block yourself, will you hide with convenient buffers?

  24. But regarding the male sex drive. Yes it is potent, to the point where most women simply can’t understand, unless they take bulk testosterone. But it decreases after early 20s. Other factors like stress, overwork, being out of shape can decrease it too. And anti-depressants a factor, a lot of men are taking those now too. So for a lot of men who’s libidos have dropped, and who aren’t particularly attractive to women, going hard MGTOW really would be the path of least resistance.

    Wow.

    I guess much of this may be true nowadays, but its a catastrophe imo if men’s libido starts tanking in their 20’s. 😯 I’m 58 and mine hasn’t tanked yet….but I don’t watch porn ( except when one of my friends insist I ” check this out “) and I want to live so I do all that I can go stay mentally and physically sound. A lot of guys don’t want to hear about that but it’s undeniable that all men will get old and die. It’s inevitable so you have to fight against negativity and sadness and anger …. You know, burden.

    Imo if your libido is tanking in your 20’s, your quality of life is going to suffer over the long haul because something has gone awry with hormones.

    Morning sequoia ain’t just for teenagers.

  25. In spite of what the red pill hucksters tell men, most men are not going to become alpha Chad’s, especially as the middle class and working class disappear. If the betas of the world hit the gym, get jacked, improve their game and develop successful revenue streams, women will simply raise the bar of what they want in a man. High status is relative not a set ideal.

    Consequently MGTOW is inevitable unless men set no floor on how little they will require from women. Women are consistently becoming less attractive on emotional, physical, financial, legal and mental levels. The drive to procreate is a dominant one. Men don’t forgoe that easily and without some justification.

    Many men will accept provisioning for an overweight women who disdains them and will help raise her babies from another higher status man while facing financial Armageddon if she finds a higher status beta to provision for her. Many won’t accept this.

  26. 😂 people evidently don’t grasp ” status ” very well, but they seem to be able to identify it in others.

    You can’t negotiate desire, but you can purchase pussy. Don’t complain about the price of you only know how to buy it.

    Women raise the bar in the same sense that roosters make the sun rise.

    1. Purchasing pussy is an adaptation.

      If men’s only frame of reference about sex is transactional, why ever bother with a relationship? Adapt and thrive. Become a Sugar Daddy. Have a ‘relationship’ with an escort until it gets old and refresh with a new one as needed. The only thing required of a man is that he suspends his disbelief that the woman actually has any genuine desire for him or has any basic human concern for his wellbeing.

      All that’s required of a woman is she be a good actress, which of course most women will explain that they already are by necessity. If the socio-sexual landscape shifts entirely over to being transactional then it (theoretically) eliminates the concerns for being ‘MeToo’d’. Everything is above board and contractual.

      If the new solution is to segregate the sexes so thoroughly as to make an emotional relationship less preferable to an openly transactional relationship then at least it can eliminate most of the new risks involved with actually attempting to form a relationship the old way.

  27. If the betas of the world hit the gym, get jacked, improve their game and develop successful revenue streams, women will simply raise the bar of what they want in a man. High status is relative not a set ideal.

    This is another rationalizing buffer.

    The fact is, and you know this is true, that very few betas will ever do that. You don’t have to worry about your hypothetical ever taking place, because you and I both know that it will never take place — there are too many rationalizations betas will use, including this one, to NOT do that.

    And because it will never take place, it is totally irrelevant to what any man decides to do with his own life, because it is a hypothetical that is not reality. The reality is that you can get what you want precisely because so few men have their act together. You only need a little effort, a little drive and little vision for your life, best quite apart from women for your own good, and attracting women becomes much easier — again, because most men do NOTHING effective to do so, and certainly not what your hypothetical describes.

    Therefore, your hypothetical is a psychological buffer — it is a scenario that exists neither now nor is likely to exist at any time, and yet you deploy it as a reason to justify action in this present context, which is not reflected by the hypothetical. It’s just an elaborate, rationalized buffer.

    Stop worrying about 30k foot solutions, top-down blah-blah. Focus on individual solutions and what is in your power, not trying to change the picture at 30k feet, or trying to change how men and women interact overall. One you can impact a lot and the other you can impact not at all.

  28. “And then, as if that’s not enough, you have a bunch of Yoda-esque dick-swinging contestants online telling you about how you’re too beta, ”

    It’s a thing.

    ” you don’t have enough frame, ”

    This is a thing too.

    “your cock isn’t thick enough, ”

    😂 ( pulls out dick )

    ” you’re too fucking short, ”

    Smirk.

    ” you’re are too fat, ”

    Steps on scale.

    ” too soft, ”

    Strikes most muscular pose.

    ” your body language is all off, ”

    Cock head to one side like a dog hearing a strange sound.

    Yup, it’s an all you can eat buffer.

  29. Rollo….be careful with coop. He’s a huckster bully riding on your coattails. His attack on coach greg was uncalled for. MGTOW is a perfectly rational response to the dark triad monsters known as American women and the system that perpetuates their existance. Greg provides gritty on the street advice that some of the goobers in your rule zero group havent a clue about. That mld guy is freaking pathetic.

    1. Adams is a grifter. He has zero understanding of MGTOW and only refers to anything Red Pill as MGTOW interchangeably because he lacks any history about either. Elliott Hulse made a similar mistake about a year ago. MGTOW sounds like a self improvement mantra and these guys are all over it until some guy points out the Doll House endorsements and they realize what they cobranded with.

      Guys like Adams think Tony Robbins is MGTOW

  30. I dont believe that Adams is a grifter. His back story and life experiences (if true) make him a perfect example of why one chooses to get off the plantation. He has an excellent point about many dating coaches (and Rule Zero folks) trying to encourage men to learn game and all that so they can end up in LTR/marriage traps, while hes trying to encourage guys not to play the game and just walk the f away.

    No matter what Adams is or isnt though doesnt change the fact that coop should have just manned up and apologized.

    Lighten up on Roosh also. We all know hes blue pilled as fuck but man does he know his shit. His talk on his latest tour seemed pretty damn legit.

    PUA is really just playing chick games and seeking validation. The best approach to women these days is to simply ignore the fuck out of them. God do they hate that more than anything.

    Oh…and big thanks for those great books….cant wait for the religion one.

  31. Wow, that’s not pithy. Cucks don’t adapt, they cuck, if they can. They can always pine. And don’t we all just a bit. I’ve come to the conclusion that we are downbred. Government picks winner and losers. They bred us dumb, maybe the past 150 years: Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man (1871). It’s over now. Even in the alt-right I get irritated at the mental density. Queuing Ron White: “You can’t fix stupid.”

    The sexes are asymmetrical. Women adapted? They had options. Men at large are more kind. In this perversion of civilized materialism and herd coordination most men can’t breed, period. Government price controls put vag out of reach for 90% of men, and women are cool with that. So are elite men. Let me pretend this is my original: correlation is not causality. MGTOW as originally defined was an original thing, like Tom Leykis. As bandied about now, it’s just a label for an effect, a symptom growing stronger. Weak men get culled. Nature ain’t playin’. This unfolding tragedy is not really one in the big scheme of things. The white man sympathy gene is unfit for a globalized and still globalizing world. I see it coming and can’t get out of the way now. If you don’t speak fluent herd, your helpless. They are so good at empathy and intuition. They know their kind and undermine accordingly. Since this is a war of attrition until its a turning point, play great defense, opportunistic offense, and protect what you’ve got. You almost certainly won’t be able to climb back up until the turning point. The clowns are locked in to their clowning.

  32. @SJF, thank you for your reply to my comment. In this context, I would define “The Juice” as the return on investment for a man who puts in “The Squeeze” to establish and maintain a relationship. I would define “The Squeeze” as the effort a man must put in to establish and maintain that relationship with a female in the United States in 2019. I have no experience outside of the United States, so I cannot speak to the experience of men in other countries.

    In 2019, we see the majority of single females becoming of a mindset that they are entitled to a specific return (as Rollo puts it, Alpha Seed or Beta Need) and they are able to leverage both the court of public opinion (social media) and the judicial system of courts to achieve their strategies. Men have neither of these weapons available to them, regardless of their status as Alpha or Beta. At any time, if they (women) do not feel they are receiving what they are entitled to, they may leverage those systems against a man, via either an accusation or a court order.

    I’ve participated in both transactional and validational sex with women. While the experience (for them) is different, I’ve noticed that their expectations (from me) were the same. When I was Beta, I was expected to Pay Up. When I became Alpha, I was expected to Show Up and give her amazing sex on demand.

    To your point of whether there are any women who are “worth it” out there, I would say it is irrelevant- every American woman in 2019 has at her disposal the same tools, regardless of whether she considers herself to be virtuous to you at the present time or not.

    I do not hate women. And while I do not say “All Women Are Like That,” the absolute fact of the matter at this place in human history is that they all have the potential to be “like that.” And I am no longer willing to take that risk. I am lucky enough to have satisfied my sexual strategy at a young age (24) and I have a child whom I can help guide alone a sturdy path from that experience. I feel extremely sorry for young men today who cannot say the same.

    I choose to maintain myself for my own benefit, not to attract females or maintain relationships. I choose to be healthy and fit and attractive because I enjoy it.

  33. Hi guys, first time poster. I’ve been following this blog since I stumbled on some MGTOW videos a couple years ago when youtube still would recommend them to you. They alerted me to the existence of Rollo’s book. I enjoyed them greatly. I read The Game back in 2008 and noticed that women who put me in the friendzone will acknowledge it that it has truth in them, but will police me when I tried practicing some of these techniques on other women.

    I am no alpha, by any means, and I didn’t think much of it until 2003. That’s the year when I noticed the disparity where most women go after alphas. At the time though, I could not prove this. All I get were “I like guys with good personalities” while that was still a plausible thing to say. A few years later reading the Game only confirmed what I knew before to be right but could not find an avenue to talk about. I took that as a given after that and spent the years mostly on my own. It’s not that I did not have success women and engaged in LTRs, but that I feel consistently undervalued in the SMP. Rollo your analysis really made everything I observed and experienced come together in a single unifying coherent insight. I must commend you for that and help explain the world to so many others.

    As for me, I’m in another LTR. I am not sure how the winds will change but I am definitely going to have to keep my eyes open. Good luck guys

  34. “Imo if your libido is tanking in your 20’s, your quality of life is going to suffer over the long haul because something has gone awry with hormones.”

    It’s rare that a man’s libido will tank in their 20s, but it will often tend to slowly decrease. And if you’re already on a MGTOW path, that gradual decrease will make it increasingly easy to live without sex.

    I have to wonder about the role of anti-depressant medication in the current sexual marketplace. A lot of people, men and woman, are on those and they often do tend to suppress people’s sex drives.

  35. The gender wars is a refactoring of intersexual relations, and men are in full retreat.

    Since the sexual revolution, men has lost a lot of power. I believe MGTOW is akin to workers going on strike. When labor goes on strike management simply re-calibrates and gives away just enough to keep the system humming but still keeps the bulk of the profits. When you apply this analogy to men and women in the last 50 years women grabbed all the beef and left nothing. It is only when they pushed past the line most men would find tolerable that those men choose to go MGTOW. I believe the pendulum will swing back, but only to keep just enough men around who will support the system, the rest of the MGTOWs will be left alone and also possibly legislated to give away their resources to the benefit those in the system. In fact their ideal is where all Beta Bucks don’t breed, but are taxed on the fruits of their labor and they buy in because they believe that they just might have a shot at one day becoming an alpha. This actually reflects our economy quite well.

    I do not believe there’s a way back to an equilibrium anywhere close to where it was. I know I would, and have, sacrificed a great deal just for the perceived possibility of sex. I know of a great many guys like this as well. That’s why I do not believe MGTOW will ever be a big enough force to make significant change. They’re working against biology.

    Working on yourself and becoming better at all aspects of your life is a lot like the kids down in California spending all their time on studying and extra-curricular activities and everything they can possibly do for a shrinking chance to be in an elite university. You may help yourself, and even succeed, but as a whole, everyone is worse off. It is undeniable that for almost every single man, the standards have gone up. We have to do more in order to have the same sexual access as before no matter what SMV you have. (caveat: if you had access to 500 women before and now you have 100, you would not really notice because the number of women you can have sex with is physically limited.) Going forward I suspect things will get worse before they gets better. As more men try to better themselves the bar will simply be raised further. The incentive for the women to return to a more equitable system is just not there.

    I don’t mean to be bleak, but I don’t see another outcome.

  36. Reading through these comments, it is truly amazing how fixated men are on the systemic issue. It is revealing that most men rely on external incentives, I guess. Sad.

    Systemic issues are only resolvable over a long time frame, in most cases much longer than the timeframe of your life when it comes to the relevant bits of being a productive, healthy man — again, leaving women out of the picture.

    You can, however, improve your own personal outcome. Yet everyone wants to obsess about how this won’t help the system.

    So?

    The system can’t be changed in any timeframe relevant for your life outcomes, not in the ways desired. It’s irrelevant to your own life choices because of that. I mean work to change the system if it’s your passion, fine, go right ahead. But either way you have decisions to make in your life that are not system-based, and are personal-based, in the context of the table as presently set. Many men are thriving in this context by making different choices — again, quite apart from focusing on women and getting laid and yadda yadda. Focusing on building yourself tends to get that … and yet then the problem becomes that this doesn’t fix the system?

    I mean seriously?

  37. “If the betas of the world hit the gym, get jacked, improve their game and develop successful revenue streams, women will simply raise the bar of what they want in a man. “

    Women simply don’t work like that. You obviously have no experience with women and your statement isn’t based on anything that you have seen. Just like men have a minimum looks threshold, women have a similar threshold as regards manliness.

    Just like women have gotten fat because of laziness and so many have dropped below the minimum threshold for most men, so many men have gotten lazy and have failed to be manly and so many have dropped below the minimum threshold for most women.

    But your statement is useful for buffering so that you can continue to sit on your ass.

    Get off your ass and stop being a lazy bum! lol

  38. You boomer fucks have nothing to offer young men other than empty platitudes like lift, hold frame and work on your game. The SMP is so incredibly stacked against young men it’s these same boomer fucks telling young men that are also completely outpriced in the housing market as wages have stagnated for decades to “put in the work” but their value on their shitty houses skyrocket from these economic bubbles just by sitting on it.

    It’s funny watching boomers as they bone their post wall hoes telling young guys to adapt when they didn’t have to deal with affirmative action everywhere, college campus rape bullshit, tinder, facebook, instagram, affirmative action,where competition wasn’t globalized in a broken system and guys like Roosh freely admitting game is alot harder now than it is then.

    When instagram status game is becoming necessary to attract chicks at your fake lifestyle this shit is getting fucking ridiculous.

    Who the fuck has time to approach 100 girls a week at a 8% success rate considered an alright ratio for just getting a contact that has a good chance of flaking? And how many of these girls are actually reliable for an LTR with this culture of cock carouseling? My last ex destroyed a perfectly good relationship of 2 years after she decided to try monkey branching and overplayed her hand.

    When the US is already one of the top overworked countries in the world next to Asia and there’s shit to fix, errand running, cooking, working out and just being generally productive why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once the honey moon phase wears off for her in a couple years and I have to constantly monitor her attraction level by playing through narrow margins of alpha and beta, inserting just the right amount of dread game to keep her going…or……..you can still play the “game” as best as you can and she’ll still find a way to fuck it up because it’s not yours…it’s just your turn….and the crazy amount of options a woman has now. The absolutely sobering statistics of marriage and divorce frankly speaks for itself.

    Guys like Cooper are only interested in “men that do the work” aka old men that have the money to phone him for advice at the rate of a fucking NYC lawyer for advice on their failed marriages. He’s all about money maxing as a grifter. Kind of like you Rollo, before the fallout when you were shilling for that whole Red Man Convention at how much per ticket again??? It’s funny watching Cooper still throw passive aggressive twitter remarks at an autistic sounding dude like TFM after he made you guys (especially Donovan) sound like pussy worshiping simps.

    Boomers also live in their own bubbles.

  39. Ringo

    Welcome and thanks for your comments. You too @ chris.

    Men improving themselves is nothing like kids doing stuff to get into elite university.

    You improve yourself for yourself, and to have a better and more fulfilling life without all that angst and worry about what society/women/social media is doing.

    I’m a certified car nut, so I’ll use my thoughts about the thing I have a very strong affinity for ( women in my life have oft said that they come 2nd to my cars…😂).

    Back in the good old days cars used to be priced so that almost anyone could afford one without being encumbered with years and years of debt, and the cars lasted a decade at a minimum. Over time this changed drastically as cars became expensive monstrosities that would barely last until the 4-6 years loans were paid off ( save for 2 Japanese manufacturers that made very reliable well priced cars – Toyota and Honda ).

    If car manufacturers decided to only build 60,000$ suv’s, and most car companies folder because nobody could afford to buy their overpriced goods, I have enough knowledge to build my own automobile, equipped any way I want, with a fraction of the money vs a new car, and it would be twice as reliable as anything on the road.

    So while it saddens me to watch American auto manufacturers step on their own dicks, I will be unaffected. Car prices could triple and I’d give no fucks.

    And I have worked mightily to have that same ability across a wide spectrum of my life, including sexual dynamics. Women, society, feminism…whatever, cannot fuck with me and my objective because of accrued skills and talents. Regardless of what the flavor of the month is with women, what I know is that they are still running on the same basic software no matter what comes out of their mouths.

    Yes of course, there are batshit crazy women out there, but to me they are like fiats. Fiat is a shit car, and it’s not overcrowding roadways anywhere…outside of Italy I guess. You can’t judge a camry to be like a fiat.

    I have never cared to listen much to what women have to say about what they want, what they demand, what the ” laws ” might do. ZFg. Life is better if you don’t react by letting little girls mean displays upset you. It’s mostly talk. A gigantic shit test wrapped in a bow.

    Women break rules and do shit they ” said ” they’d never ever do all the time. This tells you just about all you’d need to know.

  40. ” My last ex destroyed a perfectly good relationship of 2 years after she decided to try monkey branching and overplayed her hand.

    …..

    I see.

  41. ” When the US is already one of the top overworked countries in the world next to Asia and there’s shit to fix, errand running, cooking, working out and just being generally productive why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once the honey moon phase wears off for her in a couple years and I have to constantly monitor her attraction level by playing through narrow margins of alpha and beta, inserting just the right amount of dread game to keep her going…or……..you can still play the “game” as best as you can and she’ll still find a way to fuck it up because it’s not yours…it’s just your turn….and the crazy amount of options a woman has now. The absolutely sobering statistics of marriage and divorce frankly speaks for itself.

    ….. Uh huh.

    Please, tell me more.

  42. Thank you Rollo for this very informative article. One comment though: it is quite long-winded and technical – as my first language isn’t English I wouldn’t mind a simplified version…

  43. It’s funny watching boomers as they bone their post wall hoes telling young guys to adapt when they didn’t have to deal with affirmative action everywhere, college campus rape bullshit, tinder, facebook, instagram, affirmative action,where competition wasn’t globalized in a broken system and guys like Roosh freely admitting game is alot harder now than it is then.

    When instagram status game is becoming necessary to attract chicks at your fake lifestyle this shit is getting fucking ridiculous.

    Who the fuck has time to approach 100 girls a week at a 8% success rate considered an alright ratio for just getting a contact that has a good chance of flaking? And how many of these girls are actually reliable for an LTR with this culture of cock carouseling? My last ex destroyed a perfectly good relationship of 2 years after she decided to try monkey branching and overplayed her hand.

    When the US is already one of the top overworked countries in the world next to Asia and there’s shit to fix, errand running, cooking, working out and just being generally productive why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once the honey moon phase wears off for her in a couple years and I have to constantly monitor her attraction level by playing through narrow margins of alpha and beta, inserting just the right amount of dread game to keep her going…or……..you can still play the “game” as best as you can and she’ll still find a way to fuck it up because it’s not yours…it’s just your turn….and the crazy amount of options a woman has now. The absolutely sobering statistics of marriage and divorce frankly speaks for itself.

    Going to affirm and echo basically all of this. So many leaping points here…

    First, I’m 45, married twice, last divorce in late 2017, and so active participant in today’s SMP for basically a few years.

    Had a 1 year “relationship”, sex was great and most certainly DESIRE sex, but woman turned out to be a bit crazy. Just had Date 2 bang with a new girl yesterday who also appears to be crazy (online sleuthing revealed an arrest and restraining order). SO YEAH, THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF FUCKED UP WOMEN OUT THERE.

    I used to be an OMG (Old Married Guy) myself not too long ago…my sense is with all due respect and no offense but there are a few OMG commenters here who really are absolutely unequivocally totally clueless as to the realities of being an active participant (in other words meeting, dating, fucking other women besides your wife) in today’s SMP, and no it doesn’t count if the Starbucks girl smiles at you flirtatiously, that doesn’t mean shit.

    I may do a Field Report on the Date 2 Bang…truthfully it is only my Red Pill knowledge that allowed me to get it, the Blue Pill me of 20 years ago wouldn’t have done so, so there is still valuable knowledge to be applied to interacting with women but the game is becoming harder and harder, online is just brutal.

    I’m 6’3″, in great shape, and I gotta be honest 70-80% of the matches I do get (and frankly it is a pretty low percentage of the ones I swipe on) are barely bangable. My match rate with my “equivalent” peer which I would say is 40-45 equivalent looks is actually pretty low which makes me wonder what these women are holding out for, its not enough to be tall and good looking to just get the match, but you better be a CEO too, and your pictures show you are rocking status and rich as fuck? I literally can’t imagine the online results of the average height guy with the average dad bod and average job because the AVERAGE chick, hell the BELOW AVERAGE chick doesn’t understand that’s her dating/mating market peer.

    Man, I could just riff on a bunch of shit…I was in my 20s in the 1990s, I was fairly active in the 00s in between the two marriages. 2019 is a completely different beast. In case J is reading along, yeah, I get it bro, I’ve got no doubt the opportunities are still there in the under 30, 21-29 age cohort, for bar/night club/dance club pickups. I think 20s women still think it is “normal” to “meet” guys to “fuck around with” on a Friday/Saturday night at the club. I think post 30s women, the whole thing changes.

    Rollo, your last two posts have been phenonemal. There are major shifts happening, its nothing like the SoSuave days out there…I’m still trying to figure it out exactly myself, but I can understand why many, many guys would come to the conclusion of fuck all this nonsense, the Juice is indeed not worth the Squeeze. Thankfully, for me, I actually love working out, and if you told me tomorrow that a muscular physique was a turnoff to women, I’d probably still do it, because I have the internal motivation for THAT. But CAREER ACHIEVEMENT, ehhh, that ship has sailed for me, and I lack the internal motivation to really go gangbusters on that front.

    One thing about SELF-IMPROVEMENT, and I’m talking Body, Career, Finances, Game, TIME IS LIMITED, RESOURCE FOR EFFORT ARE LIMITED. No one can be 99 out of 100 on them all. Something has to give. Right now, I am in tremendous shape but I worlk out 5-6 days 2 hours a day, and watch my diet like a hawk to achieve and maintain it…I don’t have time to go Sarging 5 days a week to practice and improve my Game, and the truth is you shouldn’t have to be top 1-5% in everything just to score the average looking chick who thinks she is ENTITLED to the guy who has it all.

    I’ll probably have more later.

  44. Blax,

    NOT EVERYONE HAS THE ABILITY OR TIME TO BUILD THE SKILLSET TO CONSTRUCT THEIR OWN CAR.
    In the end, the MARKET IS THE MARKET, and the types of cars available for purchase at particular asking prices impacts the ENTIRE MARKET and will influence the buying behavior of purchasers.

    Some may inevitably say, you know what, fuck it, I’ll walk, ride a bike, or take public transportation, I don’t need a fucking car.

  45. Reading through these comments, it is truly amazing how fixated men are on the systemic issue. It is revealing that most men rely on external incentives, I guess. Sad.

    Nova,

    There is some of that yes, but i think there is something else. I think not too long ago, there was a OK I become an above average guy, “work on myself”…finances, looks/ social skills/Game and I get an above average woman. OK, good deal. Now, i think there is more of Well, I become Superman and I get an Average girl…ummm, no thanks.

    Once you remove women as motivator, the game changes.

    We can easily get into some very deep territory here in terms of be your Own Mental Point of Origin, meaning of life, being externally vs internally motivated, being “Masculine” and what that means.

    Just to take one thing, Masculinity, I suspect my version differs from many commenters here. TBH, I couldn’t give two fucks about cars, or fixing up cars, or how to fix shit. If I have a broken pipe, I’ll call a God damn plumber. But I care that when I go to the gym, i’m going to test my strength to its limit and push myself to the brink. There are various “ethos” one is the Warrior Ethos, some may focus on Competency. My point is there is no one template for Masculinity and so when people start talking about being more “masculine” I kind of roll my eyes realizing they are imposing their own value structure on what that word means. What is more masculine? That if we are broken down on the highway, you can fix the car and i can’t, but in one on one battle for resources i am probably going to tear your head off?

    I think many men struggle to find meaning and purpose. For centuries, organized religion provided that role. Also, women and family. And underlying economic necessities. When you remove all of those, what is left? Is it any wonder that some men distract themselves in a world of porn and video gaming? I actually think neither of those are bad in some small doses, but obviously unhealthy if they take over everything.

    And don’t get me started on Corporate America…as it has become more feminized, the tangible connection between performance and results and rewards is being decoupled. Do you think that dumb bitch responsible for that Gillette marketing campaign is going to have any lasting career impact? Meanwhile, you can be a high performing guy and get fucked over for various femcentric type reasons…it makes striving for career success less appealing at least in certain segments.

  46. @Sentient

    Beta, frame and body language are real. The rest is just your Bullshit.
    What Game does that all this wailing and gnashing doesn’t is give you actual, predictable and repeatable methods to succeed. But as Yoda says “there is no try”…

    I do not deny the beta vs alpha dynamic.
    I don’t deny that game works.
    It works all too well.
    Especially now with the modern day vacuum of masculinity just about anywhere one would decide to look or tread – to study, work, travel or play.
    Male frame and body language? I agree, those are also valid points for all men to understand, to apply and use for their own benefit.
    I’m not denying any of their importance or efficacy in the context of male sexual strategy, sexual attraction, pick up artistry, and outcomes.

    As for the assertion that “the rest is just your bullshit”, I will just say this:
    The lack of compelling incentives is not bullshit.
    It might be funny. It’s pervasive. But it’s not bullshit.

    Getting arrested by campus police and charged with sexual assault after an FNL is also anything but bullshit anymore.

    Losing your job, your scholarship, your career and your personal reputation based on nothing but hearsay from emotionally compromised adults is not bullshit either.
    A few days later. A week later. A month later. Years later. Anytime.
    That too can be filed under “Not Bullshit”.

    Predictably! though, when one dares to even point out just a few of the risks and incongruities that exist in the SMP, the accusations I mentioned earlier get hurled around.
    You can probablyset an egg-timer to it.
    The emotional investments and egos at play here are also real.

    I’m accountable for whatever I decide to do. Other guys can decide for themselves.
    I’d just like to see more of us going in eyes wide open.

    But I do find it amusing that these camps have formed at all, and that they would consistently talk past one another so predictably on matters that they would probably otherwise agree upon.

  47. I agree with Novaseeker and Blax.

    I just want to add one thing quickly – it’s not a dichotomy between individual action and social change. On the contrary, it IS individual action that leads to social change.

    Aka, “leading from the front”, and the old quote “be the change you want to see”. YOU – yes, YOU, reading this – have to change yourself, for yourself. If you really do the hard work and change yourself, other men will be inspired and change themselves, and if enough men do that, there’s your social change. And if they don’t – you still have the benefit of your changes.

    But that’s how change happens – from the bottom up, from the grassroots.

    I think HABD called this dynamic the “Male Imperative” or something in an old post.

    If I hadn’t seen the changes men like YaReally and Scray made in their lives to get good with women – if they hadn’t led by example – I would not have been inspired to make those changes in my own life and get good with women (and then take the next steps to physically transform myself this year).

    But this goes beyond women – it’s true for anything. Part of the reason (not the only one, but a big part of it) the climate change movement is failing is because the people pushing it are quite obviously and blatantly hypocrites taking private jets to “Google Camp” in Italy to talk about climate change, and more generally not making a single change to their own lifestyle – if they actually led from the front and stopped flying and made other difficult changes in their own lives, way more people would take them seriously – but since they don’t, it’s literally a question of “do as I say, not do as I do”.

  48. @Ringo Starr

    While the male sex drive is an inexorable force prior to middle age, our technologically advanced, liberally slanted, globally connected world provides many ways to circumvent and channel it into avenues directly opposed to the Feminine Imperative. Remember that to women, male lust is a double-edged sword: it can make the most obstinate guy as malleable as silly putty, but it is also easily satisfied by any service that simply approximates the experience of real sex. In the last 25 years entertainment has made significant challenges to women’s hegemony over that subject. A cornucopia of every single porn preference is now available at the click of a button; ditto for stimulation in the forms of movies, TV, and music. Sex robots are the new emerging market in response to how skewed women’s liberation has made the sexual marketplace. For the losers of the SMP it will be easier to embrace an adequate, if vaguely unsatisfying, substitute as the path of least resistance. And that’s a judgment based on current advancements. What happens when haptic feedback, customization, and superior VR become the new norm? What happens if simulated sex becomes more appealing for the average men than reality?

    Additionally, in real life all the features of sex have been disentangled and commodified so that discerning customers can pick and choose which parts to enjoy. For those who can’t access casual sex, there’s prostitution/escorts; people who only want the guise of sexual interaction can choose Twitch thots/webcams/JOI-type videos. FFS we even have professional cuddlers in my home city dedicated to miming the comfort and intimacy of real relationships. On the surface all these options provide women new ways to milk validation and money out of men. However, in the long-term they depreciate the value of a woman’s ability to provide all of them simultaneously i.e. a regular relationship.

    MGTOW as a movement will probably never swell to the acceptance of say, climate change, but treating it as a homogeneous, identifiable entity is mistaking its greater influence. People don’t need to personally identify to adapt some of its tenets whether it’s an emotional or intellectual choice. After all, most of the ideological architecture is unconsciously built off 4th wave feminism so the precepts are there for the taking.

    Your hypothetical system of a strict socioeconomic hierarchy that harnesses the productive power of Betas with a dangling carrot will fail. It is inevitable as a byproduct of how incentives motivate behavioral patterns across large populations through time. The biggest lesson of 20th century aborted political regimes (fascism, communism) is that top-down control requires such a constant expenditure of energy and effort that all victories are ultimately Pyrrhic. Access to sex as the bait will produce diminishing returns just like the promise of Marxist utopia.

    I’d also contend the idea men are controlled by the whiff of pussy is rooted in a misconstruction of evolutionary psychology as well as mistaking the milieu of the last 60 years as standard. My pet theory is that male disposability is intertwined with the innate ability to detach from reproductive drives as a necessity to maintain social cohesion. Basically, gene-centric competitive fitness a la Dawkins is overpowered by cooperative group instincts or self-preservation, which explains why stable social hierarchies can develop among primates without devolving into bloodbaths over sexual access.

  49. @Morpheus

    You’re making the mistake radical academic feminists have in their attempts to frame masculinity as a flawed social construction: conflating the semiotics of any particular cultural manifestation separate from the way of life and virtues it cultivates. Masculinity as a concept is best described as an example of sophrosyne rooted in biological inclinations, the details can be left up to those interested in quibbles. What really constitutes masculinity is academic. The virtues constantly morph in response to social and cultural context e.g. 9th century Japan had no less than 4 versions existing simultaneously, largely rooted in social class.

  50. This is proof-positive that MGTOW is working! Finally women are waking up to the realities of their beliefs and actions. If enough guys abandon the SMP altogether then women will be forced to come back to reality and choose men based on other criteria than ‘economic attractiveness’.

    That’s, of course, out of question. Nothing, except a return to patriarchy, will bring balance into the intersexual supply and demand.

  51. I want to make a distinction between MGTOW as a ‘men’s movement’ and MGTOW as a concept. Technically, I’m a Man Going His Own Way but I do not want to be part of a movement.

    For me, MGTOW as a concept is not so much a ‘thing’ as the absence of a thing. That is to say, when I split up with my last girlfriend three years ago, I didn’t think ‘Right! I’m going MGTOW!’ I just lived my life, took care of my business, and pursued my ambitions. And in the three years since the split, I have yet to meet a woman who inspires the thought ‘Wow, you’re cool! I want to know you.’ (Which is very different from ‘Wow, you’re sexy! I want to fuck you.’)

    I don’t miss having a woman in my life. I just don’t miss it. And, for me, MGTOW was not so much a decision as the default setting. The only reason I had women in the past was because I pursued them, approached them, made an effort to meet them. But if you stop doing that, they just leave you alone. It’s not even a case of “Going MGTOW”—women leave you alone automatically. And, sure, I experience sexual frustration from time to time. But comparing my life now to how it was when I was married or in LTRs, it seems like a price worth paying.

  52. @Palmasailor

    In THEORY, and formerly in practice, men and women were complimentary and better together than apart.

    But looking at current women in the current social and legal structure, then in the majority of occasions, you have to come to a very different conclusion.

    Well… you have nature, nurture (the cultural marxist “crap” we are invited to not see), and even within nature, divergent, contrasting drives.
    Ferenczi’s Thalassa delves quite seriously into the hostility embedded in female-male affairs. It’s ancestral, it’s… original (there from the origins).

    Then there’s the drive to join together, co-operate… because it’s convenient for both.

    The Masters of Discourse (I think) can make, with their all-pervanding propaganda, one or the other drive prevail. They will choose according to their own aims for society. Their choice now seems clear.
    On the other hand, Abrahamic religions (all 3 of them) choose to set strong bonds between the sex.
    Roosh used to write about people (most men, all women) being liquid-like, taking the shape of the container provided from outside their own mind.

  53. @Tom Lemke

    I’m no scholar, but it seems to me that — rather than being geared toward MEN — the SMP and MMP in the West were geared toward the preservation of social order.

    Why reason as tough those two things couldn’t be both the case at once?
    To engineer things towards social preservation you had to favour men in the sexual marketplace. Because the natural balance skews strongly toward the women, you need patriarchy for evenness in the market.
    (Of course, a number of men abused that, and vexed women, being quite free to do it.)

  54. @Morpheus

    I’m 6’3″, in great shape, and I gotta be honest 70-80% of the matches I do get (and frankly it is a pretty low percentage of the ones I swipe on) are barely bangable. My match rate with my “equivalent” peer which I would say is 40-45 equivalent looks is actually pretty low which makes me wonder what these women are holding out for, its not enough to be tall and good looking to just get the match, but you better be a CEO too, and your pictures show you are rocking status and rich as fuck? I literally can’t imagine the online results of the average height guy with the average dad bod and average job because the AVERAGE chick, hell the BELOW AVERAGE chick doesn’t understand that’s her dating/mating market peer.

    Thanks for writing that. We need more people facing it as it is.
    The appearance of infinite choice, and endless supply of undignified poontang-pedestalers that crowd every online venue have hijacked the minds of the women, at least the women who are in those online venues.

  55. PalmaSailor,

    There is A LOT to respond to there and my leg workout is calling, but I’ll get to it all, and try to write up a detailed report on the Date 2 bang…I may even post a pic because I’m curious how she would be rated in comparison to the REALITY of what I see on the dating apps for the majority of women along with the REALITY of women I see in real life. There are some commenters where I get the image in my mind of all these really attractive women EVERYWHERE and I really think to myself where are all these guys seeing these attractive women. FWIW, this woman is 46 with 5 kids.

    I’d love to read your online bio, because at 6’3” you should be slaying it. I’m 5’8” and threw in the towel with OLD a couple of years back.

    Ha, “slaying it”, that’s what I thought. Frankly, I started the online apps thinking:

    Of the ones I swipe right on, I will match with X%
    Of those I match with, I will go on one date with Y%
    Of those I date once, I will date again and fuck Z%

    All I can say is X, Y, Z are numbers so far below I expected that I am shocked, particularly X.

    So here is my bio, I suspect it may be “problematic” in that it is too factual, too matter of fact, and not “Gamey” “witty” “banterish” enough, but my thought was that wasn’t necessary to get the match, and the witty banter Game would come in at the messaging stage.

    “6’3″, My Degree, fitness and exercise enthusiast, non smoker social drinker, playful, open minded, inquisitive, adventurous but also enjoy quiet night at home watching TV or movies. Favorite music is EDM”

    That’s it. I’ve got 5 photos on Tinder. First one is Face shot. I’m pretty sure I don’t look like a troll lol, let’s just say I’ve gotten positive feedback more then a few times. I’ve got another face shot from a formal event. I’ve got a gym shot that clearly shows my shoulders and arms, and then I’ve got 2 shots with my former godson to try an convey kids like me lol.

    I moved my age range down to 22. Girls under 30 don’t pick guys who are 45 unless it is for Sugar Daddy arrangements. Full stop. I’m sure they are pullable if you meet them in real life and get attraction going BEFORE they know your age, but on the apps they are filtering hard on initial criteria and age is one of them.

    I’m speculating here a bit, but I think the women who are say 35-50 in my same tier of looks are in super high demand from men 50-60 who are filthy stinkin rich, and they are using the apps to find cash cow guys, not guys to “hook up with”.

    FWIW, and I can get into this more, but right now I am a “LOSER” when it comes to money and finance. My last corporate job and its outcome, along with my wife leaving me (I failed the burden of performance) and my divorce did a serious number on me financially, emotionally, and mentally. The gym and regaining my physique of long ago helped preserve my sanity and gave me a reason to wake up every day for quite awhile. I am now at a stage where I’ve begun to refocus time and efforts on getting my career and finance back on track…but none of that is relevant to online dating because at the stage of matching they have no idea I basically have no financial resources.

    Back to online dating, I’ve been meaning to write up a post on that for quite awhile. I think it was Culum who had mentioned he was absolutely killing it online…I could be wrong. But I would absolutely love to know which apps, his bio, photos, as specific as possible without compromising identity because I am curious how, because honestly I have no idea how based on what I am seeing for myself.

    I know I need to get into the field, and meet IRL. Most of my friends are married with kids, so I don’t really have any wingmen per se, so I know I’m just going to have to go solo, but I’ve been a bit hung up on that admittedly. I’ve got a temporary gig right now where I encounter lots of women routinely…I’ve gotten some positive feedback let’s say…I actually had a woman offer me a blowjob but truthfully she was a fat disgusting pig and I didn’t even want her mouth on my dick. The divergence between what I kind of encounter in the limited time I spend with women doing this gig vs online results sort of has me completely scratching my head as to what the women on the apps are doing and who they are actually selecting at just the match stage.

  56. Deti, talk about hitting the nail on the head, out of the ball park spot on ! I could not concur with him anymore. I reckon majority of men are just not prepared to do the real hard work on themselves and accept the burden of perormance. Instead they will blame women, feminism on one side, and be a completely lazy fuck not willing to work on himself, and choosing MGTOW as an absolute pathetic copout.

    Guys, get your shit together, work on yourself and make yourself into objects that women will want to fuck with desire !

  57. ConstrainedLocus

    I’d just like to see more of us going in eyes wide open.

    To what? Hypotheticals or real life?

    Getting arrested by campus police and charged with sexual assault after an FNL is also anything but bullshit anymore.

    Losing your job, your scholarship, your career and your personal reputation based on nothing but hearsay from emotionally compromised adults is not bullshit either.

    Has this happened to you? Has this happened to anyone you personally know? Someone you speak with?

    I’ll give you this, your handle is not ironic.

  58. Joe

    Who the fuck has time to approach 100 girls a week at a 8% success rate considered an alright ratio for just getting a contact that has a good chance of flaking?

    Yeah why would you want to work on your game, if this is your expectation?

    lol

    Those stats are autists and brown people running around doing London Daygame shit… Most of them would rather fail putting up huge numbers than succeed by really trying to understand game and do proper cold approach pick up. It’s built in to their whole psyche…

    Then they can sit around with their doll and feel satisfied. Hey they tried it!

  59. So is the overarching consensus here is that self improvement and masculinity are dead ends?

    Have a large number of men drank the ” toxic masculinity ” kool aid??

  60. I think many men struggle to find meaning and purpose. For centuries, organized religion provided that role. Also, women and family. And underlying economic necessities. When you remove all of those, what is left? Is it any wonder that some men distract themselves in a world of porn and video gaming? I actually think neither of those are bad in some small doses, but obviously unhealthy if they take over everything.

    And don’t get me started on Corporate America…as it has become more feminized, the tangible connection between performance and results and rewards is being decoupled. Do you think that dumb bitch responsible for that Gillette marketing campaign is going to have any lasting career impact? Meanwhile, you can be a high performing guy and get fucked over for various femcentric type reasons…it makes striving for career success less appealing at least in certain segments.

    Morpheus —

    I completely agree that the systemic issue is fucked. The system is a clusterfuck — socially, economically, sexually, politically. Total cluster.

    Most men are going to fail in this system. Fully agree.

    Given that as the context, what can an individual man do to improve his life? One approach is to say that the system is fucked, doesn’t provide the incentives I want, so I’m just going to not do much of anything at all. That’s an individual choice and is valid in that sense — and I’m certainly not out to change the world or anything like that, as I said I think most men will fail in the current system, that is a given. But it isn’t the only choice. And it isn’t really an adaptive choice (more on that below in a sidebar) in a sense that it is a choice that leads to a man thriving in the current context, rather than simply surviving it.

    Men who are externally motivated, primarily, will fail in the current system. Even the ones who “survive” by taking their ball and going home are failing in terms of actually thriving to their potential as men — again, leaving aside women, sex and getting laid. Men who are internally/intrinsically motivated will thrive in this context regardless of whether the context provides the desired incentives, because they are self-motivated, and self-directed. There isn’t any one point of reference there — it doesn’t have to be defined in a narrow way. But I think we all know the difference between (1) a thriving life in a given context and (2) taking your ball and going home to Xbox and porn fapping. How you choose to define a thriving life is up to you, but in no way is (2) a thriving life by any definition. And, again, this is apart from the whole woman thing — it’s about your overall life, and thriving in it.

    I take issue with the idea suggested in the OP that any choice a man makes is an “adaptation”. If you use it in that way, a man who is depressed deciding to drink to the point of becoming an alcoholic can also be seen as an “adaptation to his depression” — but of course we would never say that because it’s rather obviously silly. There are choices that lead to one thriving in life — these are adaptive, because they generally require adapting to the current context in a way that enables you to thrive in it. Then they are choices that are not adaptive in that they do not lead to one thriving in life — these generally do not involve adapting to the current context but resisting it, resenting it, externalizing one’s problems based on it, all in such a way as to avoid making precisely the kinds of adaptations to the current context that would lead to a thriving life.

    As to whether MGTOW is an adaptation, that’s an impossible question to answer in a blanket sense, because “MGTOW” is an umbrella term that encompasses everything from guys who have their act together and are totally MPO, thriving guys who eschew marriage, on the one hand, to the cheetos-Xbox-ESPN-PornHub crowd, and a lot in between. In other words, “MGTOW” includes some guys who are adaptive in their behavior, in terms of finding ways to thrive in the context, and some guys who are not adaptive, in terms of choosing ways of life that do not thrive in the context. So in all likelihood it includes some people for whom it is an adaptation and some people for whom it is not.

  61. I suppose, according to your assessment, I would be more red pill than MGTOW, though I think in the latter it is too simplistic in the two scenarios you describe to paint them as giving up and not bothering to do the work as they either can’t get female attention if they do or they can’t be bothered because it’s implied they’re too lazy.

    I believe there is a third option. This is anecdotal for sure as I am basing it on myself, but I am someone who is divorced, almost fifty, a self made millionaire, in the gym regularly, looks 10 years younger than his age, makes 6 figures, drive a luxury car, and has a “body count” over 200…But over the course of that, and I’ll paraphrase something Rian Stone said, …”you realize that the majority of women just aren’t that interesting”…

    I check all the boxes but I just no longer care about having any woman in my life other than for physical purposes. Too little to offer and too much risk in the value exchange.

    I do think women and men would be better off together as you describe but in today’s world, I don’t see that as an option.

    I dislike labels of any kind as they are self limiting structures, but I would certainly say I have more in common with MGTOW than not. Particularly as I view that as being about ownership, awareness and leadership.

    Painting the two scenarios as you did probably describes some portion of the population accurately but I don’t think my situation above is a unicorn proportionately. The numbers may differ, but the three focus points I call out would be the same I would bet, for many that identify with that space.

  62. Morpheus

    Honest question: when you were married, we’re you still approached by women for sex?

    I ask because there’s a consistent theme put forth that seems to indicate that a man’s life ends or is significantly hampered wrt to opportunities with women. I’m trying to u understand why a lot of comments here say stuff like ” have no idea how much things have changed ” , when marriage isn’t supposed to insulate men in a vacuum tube so that they aren’t aware.

    Why is it that after divorce so many men are shocked at what dating options are like?

    What is it that supposedly dims the awareness?

  63. @Morpheus, yes that was me about online dating.

    Yes I did very well out of it but within the limitations of online dating itself.

    I would say that you should focus primarily on IRL – because the girls are hotter in real life and the issues that affect you in getting hot young girls online (your age primarily, plus the fact that online is tilted to the girls’ advantage).

    Online is fine as an adjunct – I have mostly stopped but still find it useful if I’m horny or I’m travelling etc – but really the focus is on IRL.

    My biggest advantage (after an initial learning period) was that my conversion rate was very high – once I got my system down, I knew that 75-80% of girls who actually turned up and met me on a date would end up sleeping with me on the first date – because I am very good at pulling them once I meet them.

    The hardest part was optimizing the first stages – of cutting through the noise online to get enough responses and filtering that down to dates. I learnt to get pretty decent at that too, but it’s a major uphill struggle in a way that it simply isn’t in real life. I did a lot of stuff on sugar daddy dating sites, where the girls are much hotter than your average “normal” dating site and the site dynamics itself mean you are likely to get FAR higher response rates than on Tinder or OKCupid or whatever – the flip side there is you have to weed out the hookers and girls wanting cash which is its own challenge – there is no free lunch. I also did my share of Tinder, OKCupid etc – some cities were better than others.

    I can talk you through it more if you like – for example in your profile text I wouldn’t mention your height – it’s an asset, but mentioning it comes across try-hard (just try to have a picture that makes it obvious – you standing next to a woman or an average height man or whatever). I also wouldn’t mention your degree – at your age you get targeted by provider-hunters anyway (as Palma has eloquently talked about) – you don’t need to make it worse (in fact you should ideally have something in there disqualifying the provider hunters.

    There’s not much you can do to get young girls online – it’s a structural issue (unless you really want to get into playing the social media/Instagram/social proof game) – you’re better off just meeting the young girls in person.

    Take it over to field reports and we can talk about the details more – like the messaging funnel you use to get girls to meet etc.

  64. Nowadays, marriages in the West seem to operate in a vacuum, without acknowledging the fact that each partner has effectively joined another family. Family ties on both sides tend to check anti-familial/anti-social behaviour such as marital implosion due to a wife’s boredom or a husband’s roving eye.

    There’s something to be said for arranged marriages where each partner is positively vetted. After all, it’s not so far removed from the days when families moved in the same circles and pointed out potential spouses for a son, daughter, nephew, niece.

    This is still the norm in other cultures, despite increasing westernization of attitudes to marriage.

  65. I’ll weigh in a bit on this post. Interesting stuff, and I see applicability in my own life.

    I’m in my late 50s. Been married twice, have two grown daughters and grandkids. I consider my mission in life, contributing my genes to the next generation(s), to be fulfilled.

    I consider myself a MGTOW, but I take issue with much of how MGTOW is perceived, even among the red pill community. The original term “men going their own way” was coined quite by accident. Some years ago, there was a relatively small group of men using computer chat and trying to come up with a consistent message to describe much of what we now know of as the red pill (look up Zed the Zen Priest for some background reading, you may have to resort to the Wayback Machine at archive.org as a lot of it has disappeared). One of the participants was exasperated, claiming that the guys were all going their own way and couldn’t agree on anything. The term stuck around, and apparently has now been branded. The original concept was anti-marriage, not necessarily anti-dating or even anti-woman.

    MGTOW, despite what some may claim, is not some monolithic organization of the he-man woman hater’s club. By strict definition, as a MGTOW, I’m going my own way. And I get to define that way. And I also don’t give a fuck what anybody thinks of my own way, including (especially) anonymous commenters on an internet blog.

    So what is my way? Well, now that I’m of a more advanced age, and have small grandchildren, I no longer feel the need to procreate. Nor do I have any desire to. Would I like a relationship with a woman? Sure. There were times in my two marriages and other relationships over the years that I really enjoyed the sex, affection and company of who I was with. But I sure as hell am not looking for marriage again, I’m done paying for women spending me out of house and home. I’m going after women on my own terms. Unlike many of you here, I have no desire to fuck anything wearing a skirt. So I’m looking for a relationship. I also know enough to realize that I’m going to have to date at least a fair number of women before I come across anybody suitable. So be it. If I don’t find anyone suitable, so fucking what? I’ve been alone before, I’m alone now, and I enjoy my own company and have enough interests to live a perfectly enjoyable life without a woman.

    I used to live in a medium sized city in a Plains state. As I was winding down in the aftermath of my second divorce (preparing my house to sell, etc.), I had no desire to date the last couple of years I lived there. I didn’t want a relationship tying me to a city I intend to never set foot in again. As soon as I was able (about 2-1/2 years ago or so, when my house sold), I moved to another mid-sized city in an area of the country that was more suitable for me. I had a few dates and some other women I interacted with while I was there, but not much came of it. Then I moved to a major east coast city for family reasons (helping my elderly mother prepare her house for sale, etc.). In the two years I’ve lived here, I didn’t date at all. I have no desire to maintain any ties to this city when I leave here, and besides, the women in this town can be bitches and fit a lot of the description Rollo has provided on this website. We’re now getting ready to relocate again. I’m taking my elderly mother and mentally handicapped sister back to the mid-sized city I came from in flyover country. When I get established there (i.e. – finding suitable employment, getting in much better physical shape again, replacing my old car, etc.), then I will date again and look for someone suitable. For a relationship, not marriage.

    And if I don’t find anyone suitable? Who gives a fuck? In a few years, I’ll be eligible to draw Social Security, and it will be a reasonable sum since I had a high income in the past and have higher benefits coming. I’ll be able to live on it, or work part-time to supplement it and live a pretty good life. At that point, I’m going to do what a friend of mine is doing – buy an RV and live out of it, spending summers in the Rockies or wherever and winters in Florida where my daughters live. Yes, even alone. At my age, what does it matter?

    That’s my own way. And that, to me, is the essence of what MGTOW is really all about. I call my own shots, and don’t give a shit if anyone approves.

    So please stop thinking MGTOW is some organization. It’s not. Not really. As usual, with almost anything in society today, the name has been co-opted. Apart from satisfying my curiosity, I never even visit web pages that have anything to do with MGTOW. And I’d bet that most guys who have gone MGTOW don’t either. In fact, I’d venture a guess that you’d never see most MGTOW men on any red pill sites. They’re too busy going their own way. And by definition, the men who are going their own way get to define that way, so it will look different for each man.

    Oh, one more thing, Rollo – can you please proofread your posts before posting them? It drives me nuts to read obvious spelling or grammar errors (and yours is hardly the only site that does this). Thanks.

  66. Rollo I greatly enjoy your work and you have made a positive impact on my life however I have to agree with some other posters that unless you are guy from 18-35 actively dating in today’s market in terms of looking for a 18-25 to share a purpose with and have a LTR/family or even just looking for easy sex then you cannot see where most men are coming from in terms of the lack of quality and coldness of girls these days. I can see where MGTOW come from in terms of the juice isn’t worth the squeeze and that men for a quick example do not want to play the fake Instagram game as this will attract the wrong type of girls who are on their phones all day. I am 23 so not looking for anything serious (not sure if i will ever will unfortunately with the way the SMP is going)and am fine in terms of sex, been to 50+ countries etc so I am not a basement dweller however any ‘quality women’ will have been used up by the time she is 20. The party years start even earlier than 18 now.

    The smartphone and all the different apps and influences that has brought has turned the SMP upside down since 2012 in terms of Instagram and Tinder. It has changed dramatically in a relatively short of space of time but those two apps alone have led to making women literally insane in terms of what they believe they can get for a sub standard product. Never mind the pressure and race to the bottom in terms of slutty photos on these apps. Girls used to get paid for near nude and nude photos, now they send and upload them for free so in essence they have devalued themselves. As you have stated before this is now on a global scale and has affected even the most traditional of countries. I believe anyone who has not actively dated since 2012 in terms of looking for a serious prospect can not relate to this. Obviously most guys from say 40/45+ and who are aware of the SMP and who not looking for a serious prospect for children/LTR will not care whether the girl is a possible candidate and this idea of looking for any good signs will not matter apart from the obvious crazy that you would never stick your junk inside.

    Men who did the work 50/100/200 years ago and so on had a good chance with a young, virgin or close to it wife who was only focused on her man and family with no distractions such as a phone. Men who do the work today are getting a sub par women in terms of jaded, maybe had abortions, STI’s, the best of her looks have been used up. I can see why many men are pursuing their own lives and unfortunately accepting this is not the best climate to raise children in or get married.. They only time women will start to notice is after 25. Also many young men think why do the work when they see their fathers being taken to the cleaners in family and divorce courts. I know this post could be much more detailed but these are my initial thoughts on a busy afternoon here in Scotland.

    I truly believe the smartphone has been the final nail in the coffin in terms of most relationships casual or not as it has made even the best of girls into literally walking zombies. It is unbelievable how distracted girls are by this when 10/20 years ago the conversation and smiles would be flowing instead of the hypnotised phone eyes stare.

  67. I think that something like this must have happened when the Roman civilization declined into the dark ages. As Rome collapsed the monastic lifestyle (medieval MGTOW) became more and more popular. Not everyone could marry and have children because the economic output could not support that, and so some people adapted by moving into a monastery. Around this time too, due to the chaos caused by a weakened Rome and mass migrations, military strongmen (medieval alphas) where in control and probably were getting a lot of attention from women (I’m sure some women then didn’t mind being impregnated by legendary warriors).

    I guess men back then also had these two options besides the traditional marriage route with all its perils. Of course, not everyone had the balls and the ability to become a warrior. Monasticism in the end did a lot of good to civilization, it helped preserve and translate the works of the classics among other things.

  68. Why is online “dating” acknowledged to be broken… only to be actively pursued as the main option?

    “Too busy for irl” is a false economy.

  69. “The SMP is so incredibly stacked against young men”

    “The SMP is so incredibly stacked against lazy men”

    fify

    “why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once the honey moon phase wears off “

    “why waste my time again with the mating dance ritual only to have her blow it up again once she realizes that I’m an insecure girly man who doesn’t enforce his boundaries or have relationship skills”

    fify

  70. IRL

    I’ve been miffed by that idea as well, but I’ve basically given up trying to understand it.

    When a guy says impossible to find women that aren’t crazy, disease ridden whores that want to take all of your stuff and then you into a slave, and then go on to using tinder, bumble, ok stupid, whore finder as proof, I can’t take that seriously.

    Yet that stance appears unchallenable.

    After divorce I had one ” online ” experience that resulted in snl because that’s what the site was set up to do. I lost all interest in that afterwards because it was artificial and in the woman’s frame. If I’d become divorced tomorrow, I still wouldn’t use dating apps.

    That stuff isn’t the real wor!d.

    So yeah, I don’t get the whole ” online filled with fat, goldigging, unrealistic ” women complaint. What did anyone exoect?

  71. Hi @Morpheus 🙂

    “I’m 6’3″, in great shape, and I gotta be honest 70-80% of the matches I do get”

    Manly men don’t waste their time with online dating. Go to some “meat markets” like I do.

    I was in a bar and told a broad that if I used online dating apps, my intro would be “If you’re going to waste my time, fuck off.” Just making conversation. She was trying to french me and feel me up after that. Right in the bar with no privacy at all. Running my hands over her boobs. She found me at the bar getting a drink–I wouldn’t have approached her.

    “there are a few OMG commenters here who really are absolutely unequivocally totally clueless as to the realities of being an active participant (in other words meeting, dating, fucking other women besides your wife) in today’s SMP, and no it doesn’t count if the Starbucks girl smiles at you flirtatiously, that doesn’t mean shit.”

    lol

    “Just to take one thing, Masculinity, I suspect my version differs from many commenters here. TBH, I couldn’t give two fucks about cars, or fixing up cars, or how to fix shit. If I have a broken pipe, I’ll call a God damn plumber.”

    Cool. Strength and skill are both masculine attributes. But do you have real friends at the gym? Your masculine hobbies should lead you to friendships with other men. What avenues do you use to develop friendships with other men around masculine hobbies?

    Men bond through shared experience.

    ” I think not too long ago, there was a OK I become an above average guy, “work on myself”…finances, looks/ social skills/Game and I get an above average woman. OK, good deal. Now, i think there is more of Well, I become Superman and I get an Average girl…ummm, no thanks.”

    Maybe an average man back in 1950 would look like Superman today. The case of The Incredible Shrinking Man ™. Maybe the average man of 1950 meets the minimum threshold of most girls today.

    “One thing about SELF-IMPROVEMENT, and I’m talking Body, Career, Finances, Game, TIME IS LIMITED, RESOURCE FOR EFFORT ARE LIMITED. No one can be 99 out of 100 on them all.”

    lol, no one is, but girls are still fucking boys…and some women are actually marrying and staying faithful…you just have to meet that minimum threshold of masculinity…it takes some effort, but nowhere near your hyperbolous time commitment

  72. I see men and women as two parties to a contract that needs to get done because the deal is reproduction in the micro, but macro wise its western civilization.
    Feminism is allowing women to both inflate their worth/lower their quality via supply and demand. Men now have two things that they/we can do to bargain better, improve our side of the deal (game, red pill and all it entails), or simply saying no deal (MGTOW). It may work on the micro because women can always fine another male to deal with,…but shit breaks down badly if it goes macro

  73. “Girls under 30 don’t pick guys who are 45 unless it is for Sugar Daddy arrangements.”

    lol

    “Girls under 30 don’t pick betas who are 45 unless it is for Sugar Daddy arrangements.”

    fify

    you really don’t understand how women see men

    a man who is over 40 and has his shit together (has some resources, shows social dominance, and knows his way around women) is very sexually attractive to women

    just recently two women hinted that I might be the father of my granddaughter…sure, it was teasing…and sure, it was an attempt to flatter…and sure, there was a kernel of honesty inside the teasing flattery, lol…

  74. Limited time and resources are weak arguments wrt self improvement. You can do whatever you want to do and are willing to work at.

    That used to be an advantage of growing older – you’ve had plenty of time to figure things out and proceed. We’re talking building habits.

    I’m not naturally an early riser or a morning person, but I’m usually ( not always mind you) up and out of bed shortly after sunrise. Why? Because there are things I want to accomplish daily and I’d rather have the time to do more without getting frustrated by the clock.

    Frustration is the enemy. Not only is 99 out of 100 possible, but 100 out of 100 is more doable over time than one realizes. Again it seems to boil down to perspective and mindset / outlook.

  75. @rollo

    You meant, I assume, to write: Alek Minassian (k, 2s), the van killer.

    You wrote: Alex Minasian, who is a pianist, and killed no one. I hope.

    Correct at your convenience.

    Feel free to discard this comment after.

  76. “Purchasing pussy is an adaptation.”

    the original one. whores from the levant had a high price to let the neanderthals fuck them… wheat?? potbelly hill?

    “If men’s only frame of reference about sex is transactional, why ever bother with a relationship?”

    every single human relationship is transactional. attention is energy is currency is traded for benefit

    “Adapt and thrive. Become a Sugar Daddy.”

    yes. become what you were born to be…. the sovereign pimp

    “Have a ‘relationship’ with an escort until it gets old and refresh with a new one as needed.”

    yes. run super max game. twist her mind. pay her and send her home without fucking her. announce your displeasure with her. set the bar high and make her jump. make her your dog. then dismiss her. she will go fuck around… and sense something is missing. then she’ll come back. once she initiates contact… own her for life…. by constantly throwing her away

    “The only thing required of a man is that he suspends his disbelief that the woman actually has any genuine desire for him or has any basic human concern for his wellbeing.”

    when that pussy is a puddle, the genuine desire is for all of past present and future men’s best to fuck her… so in that sense her desire is genuine… and in that particular moment also only for him (maybe lol)… but it doesn’t last and can’t be captured or rationed. and women’s concern for a man’s well-being is dependant on how dependant she is on him for her sense of and place in the world. women can care (about themselves through you by proxy lol)… but it doesn’t last and can’t be bottled to be used as needed later lol

    “All that’s required of a woman is she be a good actress, which of course most women will explain that they already are by necessity. ”

    nah. there isn’t a woman i can’t break. the mask always comes off… and underneath… lol

    “If the socio-sexual landscape shifts entirely over to being transactional then it (theoretically) eliminates the concerns for being ‘MeToo’d’. Everything is above board and contractual.”

    having a witness who will swear is the best (aside from video footage, but that shit’s not allowed in court lol). the best reason to have a steady girl in 2020 is so she can be a witness that the sugar baby/whore/student slut you both played with totally consented lol. also being married is good because then comms are privileged as long as you know what you’re doing

    “If the new solution is to segregate the sexes so thoroughly as to make an emotional relationship less preferable to an openly transactional relationship then at least it can eliminate most of the new risks involved with actually attempting to form a relationship the old way.”

    women are always susceptible to the feels lol. use the initial transactional nature to establish contractual trust and then run top game to shift the nature of the relationship and get her paying you because she can’t live without you

    i see the shift to a m/f relationship’s beginning being based on open transaction as simply inflation in the ante price to sit down at the table to play the game

    if you hate inflation as much as i do….

    fuck the fed

  77. A lot of frustration from the comments, I understand the frustration. Below are some good steps to follow, I used these while I was going through my frustrations to certain degrees. Notice how none of them mention women at all, it’s not about them it’s about you.

    At some point you have to move past it and make the most of the situation. The “system/society” is fucked at this point, that’s the first thing you must accept, stop trying to change it. It’s good to understand the system in order to take the opportunities it presents, stop fighting it, learn to leverage it for your own means or what parts to avoid . As someone mentioned, it will eventually fix itself but it will take generations to sort out, you don’t have that type of time on this earth.
    With regards to online dating, just avoid it, there is nothing to be gained for the male unless you are a top Alpha and it can be argued that those who gravitate to online dating are not the people you want in your life anyway.
    Understand that a lot of these Twitter/Red Pill/ Manosphere “Alphas” are not the actual role models you want to follow and a large percentage of what they say is bullshit, they are grifters pure and simple. They are not what you actually want to emulate, in fact you don’t want to emulate anybody really, you want to be your own man. These internet “Alphas” who rail at “betas” are in fact actual certified Cuckolds(JM)/Crazies(ADJs)/Doll Fuckers/Sociopaths(even in the Rollo corner) and generally most likely live shitty lives given they seem to spend a ton of time on internet(Twitter/Social Media). They are making money pure and simple, the Red Pill that sought to genuinely help guys is gone , all corners of it including the Rollo corner are in full profit making mode, it is what it is. What you see and hear in the manosphere are pretty much only the worst and best case scenarios, true life is more complicated, spend time in the real world.
    Accept that life carries risk, if you want something worthwhile you are going to have to take some risk and ton of hard work. Hard work that mostly involves looking at yourself in the mirror and improving for your own self and nothing else, both in the physical realm and psychological realm. You won’t hear a lot of talk about the actual mechanics of the work because it doesn’t sell even in the Rollo corner. You will hear shit like “Do the Work” or “Energy Crystals”, etc.

  78. @Mijas

    The more intelligent, far-seeing ones anticipated the eventual collapse and migrated to Byzantium decades, even centuries earlier.

    As a side note, most of the monastic orders in the late Western Roman Empire – early Middle Ages were founded by nobility and sustained by an influx of the highly intelligent and/or local noble families. It offered far more prestige, wealth and privilege than being a petty chieftain quarreling with 20 other minor warlords over scraps of land. In terms of exerting social influence and dictating norms for the rest of the populace, the actual “alphas” of Western Europe worked within the Catholic Church and the various monastic orders; warriors were transient authorities serving as useful tools or occasional enemies.

  79. ‘Well, I become Superman and I get an Average girl…ummm, no thanks”.

    To bang above average girls you need 1) go to a high end venue 2) above average looks/style and 3) game.

    To bang hot girls you need 1) game 2) cool friend(s) with access to hot girls (i.e. a decent club promoter) and 3) follow the principal of reciprocation.

  80. This corner of the internet used to be concerned only about the unfiltered truths and had a strict “No Prescriptions” rule– it was “The Rational Male 1.0”

    But now it has now devolved into Richard “Pooper’s” brand of success porn bait to reel in AFCs to buy into affiliate programs, 1100 dollar an hour phone calls and Multi Level Marketing style “War Rooms”. Welcome to “The Rational Male 2.0”. In this space now, every married man in a blue pilled cuck waiting to be divorce raped, every incel is a future mass murderer, every MGTOW is a “doll fucker”, every MRA is a male feminist and every religious man is evil incarnate.

    Unless you are pledging allegiance to Richard “Pooper’s” ideology of “Chase Excellence, not Women” – which ironically is copied from what MGTOWs used to say, you are buffering, deering, blah, blah.

    On multiple social media platforms, 24/7 you will be bombarded with FEAR PORN – “look here hypergamy, look this is what is Gender War, look cock carousel, see this is divorce rape, look there a single mother, THE WALL, look there MeToo, look insta thot, see that feminist, solipsism, Alpha Widows, etc, etc. But don’t run, buy this tactical soap, get on a 1100 dollar phone call, buy tickets to shitty conventions, sell your left kidney and join this War Room, buy all affiliate programs, get on TRT, and if you still fail, it’s all on you … cause muh “Burden of Performance”.

    I am not a MGTOW, but I respect their choice of engaging or not engaging with women. It could be due to any reason. Why on earth brand everyone of them as “doll fuckers”?

    So what if some men decide to use sex dolls? Do you go out bashing women for buying vibrators and dildos? Miss Jane could not get Chad to commit, she marries her dildo and calls it Tyrone… Poingdexter could be get Stacey, so he commits to a sex doll called Becky.

    Do you go out bashing gay men that they are running from their burden of performance? No, you will wrap yourself in a rainbow flag so that you do not get deplatformed. Then why go after MGTOWs? What benefit is there to bully, coerce, insult them – to reel them in on your success porn plantation so that you can profit out of them?

    I have been watching politics very closely for the last two years and it has taught me more about human nature than what I learned elsewhere in my life. And I see the same parallels here in the “Red Pill Community” – which I predict is in its last days. A so called “Community” can only survive so much of infighting.

    Looking back, now I clearly see the attempts to destroy the reputation of “others” who do not agree with “The Praxology”. RSD were branded as purple pill hacks, Roosh was falsely portrayed as someone who promotes rape, Incels (the most vulnerable group) were made fun off and branded as mass shooters, MGTOWs were deliberately portrayed as woman haters suffering from Red Pill Rage who fuck dolls, just because one guy with 200,000 subs on Youtube promotes sex dolls. And the next attack will be on the easiest target of all, the “Christian Man”.

    But Karma is a bitch Rollo, and those con artists you associated with to destroy the above groups, to create your own brand of Rollo Pill, are now out to destroy you.

    Out of all the bullshit drama with the “21 Con”, one good thing that emerged is that it exposed everyone here as a fraud.

    That piece of shit sperg cunt Anthony “Nightmare” Johnson in spite of being the most despicable man is right about one thing, that if you are not taking the “Rollo Pill” you will be called a “doll fucking cuck male feminist incel”.

    I will forever be thankful for “The Rational Male 1.0”, but I am really disappointed with the takeover of this blog by Richard Pooper.

    MRAs, Incels, MGTOWs are branded as woman haters, but it is only a projection. The 24/7 vitriol against women, shit posting 24/7 I see on the multiple social media platforms of Richard Pooper, Rian Stone, et all makes me feel sick to my stomach. Looking objectively from outside, this is the most radical group now is this Shit Pill Community. Target the prey, put them on a high dose of fear, snare them in for profit.

    It took only 2 years to see this scam for what it is … good for you … and shame on me. But never again!!

  81. The average woman isn’t interested in the average guy. They are putting off any commitment for as long as possible. They are only willing to cut a deal a decade later when their youth and prospects are in decline and they demand a walking atm machine as compensation.

    Telling the average man that the solution to his problem is for him to be above average is putting on the suit of Captain Obvious. I doubt that even blue-pillers are unaware of this.

    Game can help improve the odds but they don’t alter the dreadful equation. It also doesn’t increase the number of women who are worth marrying or even capable of it, which is a subset of those worth having sex with.

    A decade of the cock carousel and everything it brings with it isn’t going to magically vanish because you have gained her interest. In other words, even if the average man manages to be above average to get that average women, what he gets isn’t worth very much. And then he has to put everything on the table and bet that a woman who has been ditching or failing at relationships for the past ten years is going to make it work with him.

  82. I wish Rollo had quoted Novaseeker’s comments instead of mine, because Nova saw this and articulated it before I did, and because he says it better than I do.

    But I’ll weigh in anyway.

    One of the things about the manosphere is that not one of us has it all 100% correct, not one of us has all the answers, and it isn’t possible to concentrate all the “correct” and “right” into one tight space. That’s why a thousand flowers bloomed in the manosphere.

    MRAs have some things right: The current system sucks and is completely unfair to men and it needs to be fixed and if it is not fixed, we won’t have anything to fix eventually.

    MGTOWs have some things right: To a very, very large extent, women have become Not Worth It and the best answer is to withdraw from them almost completely and deal with them on your own terms or not at all.

    The PUAs had a lot of things right: Everything you thought you knew about male nature, female nature, sex, dating, relationships and marriage is 180 degrees off. It doesn’t work the way you thought. It doesn’t work that way; it works this way. We know this because we (1) read the Great Books; and (2) have reverse engineered what the naturals did, broken it down into its component parts, analyzed, described and reconstructed each part, machined the parts, put it into a verbal schematic diagram, and then put it back together again. We use this knowledge to have sex with and relationships with women we are attracted to and so that the sex and relationships work for us, instead of us working for them. The ancients called it “being a man”. Moderns today call it “Game”.

    The Christomanospherians have some things right: Despite what everyone around you told you for the first 20 years of your life, being nice and kind and Godly and having a good job are not sexually attractive. They just arent. And no amount of wishing it so will make it so. You strike out with women because nice, kind, devout and employed are all you’ve got going for you, and those things are not enough. If you want women in your life, if you want to stop everyone from walking all over you, then you need to learn about male/female nature, stand the hell up for yourself, put down some boundaries, and stop putting up with bullshit from people. You have a lot to learn from PUAs despite your moral objections.

    Nova is correct that most of the manosphere, most of the people who write and participate, seem to be doing one or more of the following:

    (1) “The system needs to be fixed. The only way for men to get what they want is to put the system back to the way it was.”

    (2) “Women suck. I’m taking my ball(s) and going home to do Xbox/porn/weed/ booze/McJob, and I’m not gonna play anyone’s game anymore. It’s not fair, and until it’s made fair, I’m not playing. And women sure are gonna be sorry!”

    Guys, the system is not going back to the way it was for us, or for our sons. And yes, women suck. But complete withdrawal and refusing to play isn’t the answer, and it isnt’ going to get you what you want. Because, no one, no guy, wants the Xbox/weed/porn/booze/shitty job lifestyle. That’s a default, not an aspiration.

    Because, guys, (1) is really “I cannot play the game by the current rules because I don’t know how. I was given the rules, but I cannot figure out how to apply those rules to my advantage. So it needs to be changed back.”

    And (2) is really “I want women. I want them badly. But I cannot get any. And that hurts. So I am going to lash out and be pissed off and just go sit over here and not do anything and boy are you all going to miss me when I’m gone! Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I’m going out and eat worms! You won’t have me to kick around anymore!

    Story time! Gather round, boys…

    I graduated law school in the early 1990s into a very tight job market. I went to a good school with average grades. I really wanted to go to a major metro. So I sent the resumes out; NY, CHI, LA, DFW. I even went to smaller midwestern markets. But I could not get a major metro job. I couldn’t get anything to pan out. So I had to reconfigure the plan and got into a small metropolitan market, where I’ve been able to build a nice career. And it has turned out to be what has worked out the best for me. I did it partly because I needed a job, so I could eat and support myself, yes, but I also worked out a plan that worked for me, and I did what I wanted.

    So it is, or can be, with other things. With women. With life.

    You are in this system, like it or not. Figure out how to use that to your advantage. And whatever you do, own it. Do not take particular courses of action because “oh, well, this is all I got, this is all I can do, so I guess I’ll just go my own way/get married so I can fuck/stay married so I can fuck”. If you want to self improve so you can slay pussy, then you should do that. And do it because that is what you want. If you decide that you are going to swear off women because they aren’t worth it and the juice isn’t worth the squeeze, then you should do that because that’s what you want. If you want to improve to find one woman for a long term relationship, then you should do that. Because it’s what you want.

    And whatever you do, do it because that’s what YOU want, not because that’s what she wants or other people want or “society” wants. And don’t do it because you’re falling back into a default position, which is what I see a lot of men using MGTOW as – the default. A lot of those guys aren’t happy. They aren’t satisfied. They aren’t getting anything they want, like, not anything.

    If you have self improved, maxed everything out, fixed everything, and pussy still isn’t coming your way, then you need to accept that. Just as I accepted it when I did all I could do to go to The Big City, and a sweet job deal did not come my way. I kept trying and reaching diminishing returns. It didn’t work out the way I wanted it to. I did all I could, and I could not get a Plan A situation. Plan A did not work out. That was just reality. So I went to Plan B, and it turned out Plan B should have been Plan A all along.

    If you swore off women because you’ve done everything you could do to improve to attract one, and it still didn’t work out, and you’ve accepted that, then that’s fine. You are now free to move on to a Plan B that you can fashion to your liking.

    But, if you swore off women because the system sucks and can’t be fixed and you’re trying to fix the system, or waiting around for someone else to fix the system, then that’s not good. It’s not helping you. It’s not good for you. If you’ve sworn off women because you cannot accept the current situation, or your place in it, that’s also not good and it is also not helping you.

    I know. I get it. Facing a life without women is very difficult. A bitter pill to swallow. Maybe a whole hell of a lot more bitter than being unattractive to coastal BigLaw. And it’s easy for me to say, being married, and being really, really fortunate. Because, guys, the only reasons I am still married are some decently thrown together Game, and a whole hell of a lot of luck. But accepting the situation as it is, and then fashioning a Plan B that maximizes benefit to you in the current milieu, does more for you and benefits you more than fixating on how you can’t have Plan A. Making your own Plan B the way you want might not be as good as Plan A. But your own Plan B is a hell of a lot better than a Plan C foisted on you or a Plan C that you just latched onto and allowing yourself to be whipped about to and fro by forces beyond your control.

    I get it. No pussy, or very little pussy, sucks. Yes. It does. But if that’s a fact of life for you, make it work to your advantage. We are men. We find the best of ourselves in adversity. We take shit situations and make them work for us. We fashion good from bad, or at least make the best of bad. We solve the problems, we fix what doesn’t work, we take what doesn’t work and make it work, we build things that work, and we get shit done. That’s what we do. And it starts with each of us, individually.

  83. @The Inimitable NEET

    I agree. Being a monk may have given some men prestige and power. It still meant giving women up though. MGTOWs could be making tons of money and getting to positions of power too; they still won’t be competing with other men for women. It’s the act of giving up on the struggle for reproduction that I think connects today’s MGTOW and monasticism during the decline of Rome. Social norms and the economy were breaking down then, and they are breaking down today. I think the ascetic hermit lifestyle is one of the adaptations of men (and women) to this kind of situation.

    I’m not an expert on the middle ages, but I can imagine that warlords were getting a lot more attention from women than monks even though their high status was short-lived.

  84. @ A MGTOW:

    That is a great post. That’s what MGTOW was when I got here. You’re an OG MGTOW like Zed, Rob Fedders, and Fidelbogen.

    Sometimes we need to take our finely tuned observer’s glasses and point them inward. We have seen what women do and are when the limits are removed. They’re slutty, promiscuous, disloyal, dishonest, crass, uncouth, selfish, self-absorbed, bitchy, emotionally out of control, and overall train wrecks.

    But what men do when reduced to their base common denominator isn’t much better. We men are lazy, externally motivated, demoralized, withdrawn, selfish, self absorbed, sometimes violent, and sometimes turn that violence inward.

    But women at their best, when appropriate limits are placed both by themselves and others in their lives, can be loyal, faithful, giving, graceful, supportive, emotionally adjusted, and overall assets to others and themselves.

    And men at their best, when they put appropriate limits on themselves and work with what they’ve got, can be industrious, internally motivated, upstanding, gregarious, controlled, directed, in charge, confident, dominant, and overall bad asses who run their own lives and get shit done.

  85. I’m not an expert on the middle ages, but I can imagine that warlords were getting a lot more attention from women than monks even though their high status was short-lived.

    You’re correct in your lack of expertise.

    You can’t simply extrapolate backwards in history the SMP realities of a materialistic culture like ours. The medieval world was one where belief in the numinous (which most people today find tediously credulous) was a given. That doesn’t mean people didn’t have lusts, but it does mean that sexuality was viewed differently, and people weren’t FWBing, FNLing and so on left and right. It was a different era. Yes, the warrior class had more sex than the monks did because the monks were celibate in theory (much less so in practice). But the monks controlled the culture in a way similar to how mass media does today, because that culture was a culture based around the supernatural. The current day monasteries are, to provide a proper example, the universities.

  86. Men have adapted but many are distracted by the attempted solutions of the outliers. For shorthand I’ll define a pair as (investment in self, investment in women). Some MGTOWs (?,zero), Japanese “grass eaters” (low, zero) and incels (low, zero) get as expected no pussy. PUAs (low, high) get as expected pussy but everything else stalls (yareally: no career, no hobbies, lots of pussy).

    However by experience men have found the solution. Across the Red Pill, including here, r/TRP, r/MarriedRedPill, blogs (blackdragon etc.), videos, and in popular books such as No More Mr. Nice Guy and the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F, the solution is (high, low). Invest high time & money in self, low time & money in women. As Dalrock might note, this is anti-chivalry (anti-gallantry). Dating sites not effective, don’t use them. Take a woman out to dinner, no, coffee house meet. Take a woman to a costly outing, no, netflix and chill. Buy a woman an expensive ring, fuck no.

  87. Men are adapting alright:

    -While infinitely delusional boomers are still on board with feminism (usually in a misguided attempt to impress the women in their lives), the term “feminist” is now a huge red flag to any man under 50, save for trannies and/or antifa. Witness the sucess of antifeminist youtube content.

    Marriage is happening later, sure. But, the terms are slowly shifting. Why is there a drop in diamond demand?
    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/global-diamond-glut-crashes-de-beers-september-sales

    -Men are disengaging in the workplace, with many following a strict “Mike Pence protocol” of zero private engagement as a hardline defense against harrasment allegations. Now, women are complaining about a lack of male mentors. Here is one of many such complaints:
    https://www.seattletimes.com/explore/careers/we-need-more-men-to-mentor-women-heres-how-to-do-it-right/

  88. @thedeti

    great comment at… [checks post] one hour ago…lol (i really do miss those timestamps…cough… Rollo… cough…lol)

    just one quibble…

    If you have self improved, maxed everything out, fixed everything, and pussy still isn’t coming your way, then you need to accept that. post up a field report, open yourself up to some painful work/humbling self-reflection/solid advice… and get busy…

    fify…

    otherwise, great comment…

    good luck!

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