Raiders of the Lost Covenant

I hate to begin an essay with an apology, but I feel like one is in order this time. For the past year and a half I’ve been invested in writing my fourth book, The Rational Male – Religion. This required a degree of perseverance, dedication in research, feedback, interviews and general behind the scenes dialoging that I’ve never had to involve myself in before. As a result, I’m less able to devote myself to writing this blog as well or as regularly as I believe I should. For that I’m apologizing here for skipping a week more often than I should.

I’m enjoying every minute of the work I’m putting into the new book, but it is taxing. A criticism I always get is that my books are just re-edits of this blog’s essays, and “Why should anyone buy your books if they can get it all for free here?” Ironically, these are also the critics who berate me for selling out, or they assume pushing my Red Pill books is all I do for a living [insert eye-roll here].

Well, not this time. This time the book will be (almost) entirely fresh material and this takes time, effort and concentration. There will be some material from a handful of past essays, but about 85% of the book is new material.

This process began prior to my publishing Positive Masculinity in July of 2017. I knew then, while still writing my third book, I wanted to do a book on how the Red Pill awareness of intersexual dynamics intertwined with religions and religious mindsets for the series. I began to do some casual research in Spring of 2017 as an aside to the third book. This quickly snowballed into a part time job for me. Now, add this to my schedule with:

  • The Red Man Group
  • My own YouTube presence
  • A few regular live spots and interviews I do
  • Red Pill 101 I do with Pat Campbell every Sunday
  • The keynote talks I’ll be giving at three 21 Conventions in 2019
  • Producing a new liquor brand for my real job this year

Anyway, that’s my way of saying I feel bad for missing a week or two on this blog. The Rational Male will always be my comfortable place to come home to and I want to let you all know, just because I’m posting less in the comments doesn’t mean I don’t read every one. In fact, this is one of the only forums, among dozens, I make a point to keep up with consistently.

Covenant vs. Contractual Marriage

Since digging into the new book I’ve gotten in the habit of comparing notes with various religious personalities who I think might give me a better perspective into how aspects of the Red Pill dovetail into religion. Everyone from Jewish Rabbis to Greek Orthodox ministers (?), to the Muslim faithful, to Evangelical pastors have been on my discussion list for two years now. One notable of late was Dr. Everett Piper, the recently retired president (chancellor?) of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.

Dr. Piper has a regular segment on the Pat Campbell radio show that comes on a half hour before I go on with Pat every Friday morning at 9:05am EST. The link to all our archives is in the sidebar.

Listen to the full discussion here

Last Friday Dr. Piper and I had a discussion about the state of marriage today. I’m loathe to call it a proper “debate” because there’s a lot that he and I agree on with respect to the value of marriage for men and women – at least, the value of what marriage had in the past and should mean to men and women going forward. Marriage is always going to be a persistent hot button issue in the Manosphere. Depending on what your personal, moral and/or rational beliefs are, marriage is something to be actively avoided or something only to enter into with the most serious degree of vetting and caution. Today’s marriage is defined by the dangers it poses to men. Unfortunately, this caution is rarely a consideration for most Blue Pill conditioned, Beta men.

Another area that Dr. Piper and I (and the Manosphere) agree on is the ‘feels before reals‘ priority our feminine-primary social order has embedded in our social consciousness. Today, the “correct” way to address a decision is to lead with our emotions, but it’s exactly this ‘feelings first’ idea that leads men to disregard the life-damaging potential that modern marriage poses to them.

I took the pro-avoidance side of this discussion. And, as usual, I always have to qualify my doing so first; Yes, I’ll be married for 23 years in July. Yes, I’m still happily married to the same woman and have never been divorced, nor have I ever considered divorce. My marriage’s success is directly attributable to my Red Pill awareness and putting it into practice. Mrs. Tomassi and I are still very much in love, we’ve raised a gorgeous and smart daughter to adulthood, and I think my marriage is as close to most people’s ideal as can be.

And yes, I would still never remarry were I to find myself single tomorrow – I simply cannot endorse marriage, as it exists today, as a good idea for any young man. Remember, this is coming from a guy with a damn good marriage. As MGTOWs are fond of saying, endorsing marriage today is leading the lambs to slaughter. I agree. It is simply, statistically, the worst decision a man can make in his life at present, yet so many men want to believe they won’t be one of those statistics.

This confuses a lot of people. Fundamentally, I think the institution of monogamous marriage has been one of the bedrocks of success for western civilization. Marriage is a good idea; it’s how we execute it in the late 20th and 21st centuries that makes it one of the worst prospects imaginable for men. So, I’m technically not anti-marriage; I’m anti-never-saw-it-coming-Pollyana-how-could-she-do-this-to-me?-hypergamy’s-doesn’t-care marriage.

This was my position going in to this talk with Dr. Piper. Have a listen to the whole segment if you have the time, but what we distilled it down to is the idea of a Covenant Marriage vs. a Contractual Marriage. This was the premise used to describe the divide between marriage how it should be done – religiously, personally, devotionally, how it was done in the past – and the way marriage is now – the worst contractual liability a man can enter into. Needless to say a lot of qualifications followed this.

By my understanding a Covenant marriage presumes a mutual religious reverence and understanding of what is expected of a man and a woman before they enter into marriage. It is founded on the agreement of two individuals who believe they are better together than they are apart. On paper this sounds good, but it presupposes quite a bit – particularly on the part of that woman today. I’ll detail the reasons why in a bit, but I take the Covenant definition of marriage to mean that there’s a mutual understanding between the man and woman that they are marrying for love in accordance to what they believe is their religious and monogamous obligation. Fine. We’ve got a model for marriage that is set apart from the Contractual model.

The Contractual marriage is one based on mutual support and an insurance that this support will continue even if the marriage itself dissolves. MGTOWs liken this to a bad business contract that, were it not marriage, no right-thinking man would ever agree to sign off on.

Contractual marriage is the standard for today. Dr. Piper sees this model as the “what can I get from my partner marriage“, but you can decide for yourself if you listen to the discussion. I think this is a bit disingenuous since it implies that men’s only consideration for agreeing to what amounts to a bad business contract would in any way make sense due to a desire for getting what he can out of what’s already a bad deal. Why marry at all if what you’re taking away from it is nothing you can’t get outside of marriage without the risk?

Essentially, Contractual marriage is the marriage-divorce-support structure that men are wisely hesitant about today. Dalrock once noted that sometime after the Sexual Revolutionwe moved away from the marriage model of child rearing and into the child-support model of child rearing“, and I think the Contractual model of marriage becoming the default was an integral part of this.

If you’ve ever watched the documentary Divorce Incorporated you can see the machinations of the Contractual form of marriage at work. This is just a taste of some of the real world consequences that accompany Contractual marriage’s liabilities. However, I think going in – and with the emphasis on leading with our feelings – most men have idealistic, Covenant marriage, expectations for their marriages.

It sounds pretty good, right?

And for the premarital sex mindset it’s the only game in town if they want sexual access. So, it serves a purpose to convince oneself that a man’s spouse is necessarily on the same page as they are with respect to his idealistic concept of love (versus a woman’s opportunistic concept of love). This is where most Beta men get themselves into trouble. They presume their ‘bride‘ to be shares his mutual idea of love, and combined with a potent cocktail of dopamine and endorphins, he leads with his Emotional Process rather than his Rational Process.

Off the Books Marriage

While we also discussed the issue of Responsibility vs. Authority in marriage, what got me was his marching back the question about separating a ‘Covenant’ marriage from the ‘Contractual’ marriage. This is something I’ve discussed with MGTOWs occasionally. Would marriage work if you removed the state and any entitlement to the cash & prizes liabilities from the equation?

I brought this up because this “private ceremony”, off-the-books unofficial marriage is what saved my friend Anthony Johnson from losing his ass in his own divorce. He wasn’t wise enough to see through his ex’s deceits, but he was smart enough not to involve the state in his marriage.

I was genuinely surprised to hear Dr. Piper disagree with the idea of separating the marriage models we’d discussed at the time, but to have him state that he wasn’t willing to somehow give up on the heroic fight to reform the ‘Contractual’ marriage was, in hindsight, kind of disingenuous. In both instances, with respect to headship and authority, and the reluctance to let go of the contractual definition of marriage (especially after making such an impassioned case for a covenant marriage) I can only come to the conclusion that Dr. Piper’s position on marriage is influenced by the feminist undercurrent prevalent in the church today – and without his really realizing it too.

Once again the fiscal considerations of not offending women’s (feminist influenced) sensibilities comes to the fore in another religious leader. This has been a constant theme among the Pastors and church leaders I’ve been interviewing since I started the fourth book.

Churches are business franchises today and if you want to keep the tithe checks forthcoming in order to keep the lights on pastors and church leaders need to prioritize the sensibilities of the primary consumer in the western world – women. It’s gotten to the point now that church leaders have internalized that women’s eyes and ears will be judging their words minutely in sermons and public appearances to ensure their Pastor is on ‘team woman’. This is why opposing a separation of Covenant marriage vs. the Contractual is literally a ‘no brainer’ for these men. They don’t ever think about it any other way because they’ve already adopted the feminist zeitgeist that’s assimilated their churches. To endorse that separation is to deny women their potential for cash & prizes if a man displeases God by making them unhappy.

I think maybe I expected more from Dr. Piper. I was hoping to find some common ground, but I think he may be committed to a doctrine that panders to the Feminine Imperative without realizing it. When we got to the part about headship (Corinthians) he came right out the gate with pre-qualifying headship vs. being a domineering asshole. I’ve come to expect this from a female-primary church that deemphasizes male authority. In fact, it redefines that ‘authority’ as responsibility before you get to discuss any other aspect of what women might allow as “headship”.

It’s like a mental illness with these people. If a wife isn’t perfectly happy and beautiful it’s the husbands fault.

It’s a disgusting view of marriage which can only increase unhappiness for the average Christian couple because there’s no way to keep a woman happy all the time, and, age means women are going to get old. It’s part of life, and it is enough for a woman to age gracefully without these Pastors trying to brainwash men into thinking that any lack of beauty is their fault.

7817 dalrocks Blog

Imperfect Men Vet Imperfect Women for Imperfect Marriages

The “You should’ve vetted better” or “You should’ve married a ‘real’ Christian woman” excuses are something I encounter a LOT from Christian church leaders. Dr. Piper also used this one too. It’s really the Christian version of the Quality Woman dilemma.

As I’m working my way through my fourth book and on The Red Pill & Religion this is one cop out I get regularly. Apparently no ‘real’ Christian woman would ever initiate divorce and if men were only Godly and wise enough to discern from the outset of ‘courting’ that their “bride” wasn’t a fully devoted woman of Christ then it’s their fault for marrying her – or their fault for screwing up God’s perfect plan for his married life later in the marriage. This is ex post facto rationalization that reinforces moralistic beliefs, but also justifies the reaming you’re going to take in divorce court for not being wise and Godly.

It’s basically another play on the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. “They not ‘real’ Christians/Muslims/Jews/Krishnas/etc.” should be the subtitle for my new book, I’ve heard so many times.

Deus Vult

When it comes to debating church leaders I simply cannot win the “God says so” clause. This is another obstacle to discussing Red Pill ideas in a religious context. It’s an appeal to faith that is always the go-to response to issues I bring up that they have no real answer to. That, or they don’t want to answer for fear of offending the Feminine Imperative in the church today.

Contractual” marriage is an all-downside proposition for men today. I tried to make my best case for why men shun it in the discussion. Naturally, there’s a common impulse for Publicity Pastors to AMOG from the pulpit and shame men for avoiding marriage, but they can’t argue against the marriage stats and the life-destroying fallout of divorce for men. It’s all too verifiable. The marriage & divorce rates today are unignorable, so men deductively go with the pragmatic response and avoid marriage or go MGTOW.

All that means nothing to the faithful Christian mindset. “It doesn’t matter if contractual marriage is one of the worst decisions a man can make today – “God says you should marry.”

What about the incentive of cash & prizes women have in divorce?

Doesn’t matter, God said get married

So I can’t argue with the divine creator of the universe. God says jump, so you jump. That’s the absolutist-moralist win button for any rational argument to the contrary.

Alternative link to the interview is here

Discussion at Dalrock’s Blog

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Playdontpay
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Fuck what “god says” he doesn’t exist. End of discussion.

George Dinius
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Excellent thank you.

Jafyk
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Jafyk
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Great blog Rollo and a very funny and frustrating one at that.

kfg
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kfg
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“Doesn’t matter, God said get married” Let us, for the sake of argument, stipulate the Biblical prescription. Paul was and is not God. Christian marriage involves a contract with God, not the state. I have previously addressed the fact that historically, in the US until after the Civil War, marriage did not involve a contract with the state, that contract with the state was not universal among the states until after WWI and that the origins of the contract were strictly for the purposes of racial discrimination. Marriage was simply a matter of attesting to the marriage in front of… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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God said get married”

Funny thing, there’s some quotes in the Bible about the duties of wives. “God said” those too, but somehow these preachers never quiiiite get around to those parts.

A bunch of p-whipped whiny manbabies.

Anonymous Reader
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As I said over at Dalrock’s, vetting is necessary but not sufficient.

Call it “headship”, call it “leadership”, call it “managing”, whatever; either maintain Frame and Game a wife, or you are stepping on the slope to ruin of various forms. The good news is it’s almost never too late to Game.

ThePatriarch
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There are answers to the question of faith. Unfortunately most church leaders, and most everyone else down to those in the pews don’t want to hear them. Specifically 1 Peter 3:1-6. Let’s apply this section to the wives. Especially since it is explicitly addressed to the wives. My question has been, and always will be, Why don’t the women of the church have sufficient faith to follow “what God says” in his word. Not making the argument that “they are’t real christians”, but rather making the statement that if you’re going to believe the Bible as the word of God… Read more »

foxguy
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Rollo, I listened to the interview I smiled and said something the lines of “gotcha” when after signing the praises of covenant marriage, he was unwilling to step away from contractual marriage and even semi denounce it, yo got him. I knew he was full of shit at that moment and stopped listening as he was exposed as yet another individual who is having to do mental gymnastics to keep the business going or outright lying. Christianity is slowing dying but there are at least a few good pastors/priests out there still, I know one but they are by far… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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Now men are supposed to look like Good Christian Men so the women can find those men, pair up with those men, and benefit from a man that built his whole existence around being a…………RELIABLE SUCKER. None of them fucking read. Jezebel was thrown off a building by Incels, run over by a chariot, and eaten by dogs. And guess who did the throwing? The Reds can say what they want about the Bible but the eunuchs who were living in the Palace at the time were the ones who threw her out a fucking window! They aught to remember… Read more »

IAS
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@Rollo: it surprises me a bit that you are religious, particularly considering your father was rather atheist.

I used to be quite religious (no pre-marital sex and all).
I’m now an atheist, that happened a bit gradually and a few years before I got Red Pilled.

Churches are business franchises today (…)<\em>
Today? smile
Surely organized religion was always about power.

Ofelas
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Great one, thank you.

P. S.
In “that they are marrying for love in accordance to what they believe is their religious and monogamous obligation” – should it really be “love”, not “life”?

ex-cartoonist
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Brilliant, Rollo. Just brilliant.

Only yesterday, I was sat outside in the sun talking with my twenty-one-year-old son who asked, ‘What’s the point of marriage?’ As his mother and I are divorced, I did not have a good answer for him, but I was also reluctant to condemn marriage out of hand. To me, a total rejection of marriage was throwing the baby out with the bathwater, although I couldn’t say why. But the distinction between a covenant marriage and a contractual marriage is why. That’s where the line is drawn. It was certainly true in my experience.

Thank you.

Vernon Williams
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I like how you interview religious leaders to get to were thier mind set is at. For someone who has abandoned his faith due to the fact that I can’t unsee TRP and it always clashes with my reasoning Faculty. I can clearly see The Rational Male’s point.

The men that cling to these ideals are either low smv men or it works for them. E.g The pastors in my church with 6 children and an obedient wife or the guy who finally has a girlfriend that secretly despises him.

wahoo Mcdaniels
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Rollo , who would think a man would hit his most productive years after 50? HT.

Novaseeker
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Greek Orthodox have priests, actually.

Deep Strength just published a book that translates RP principles, or at least some of them, into Christian language that may be worth taking a look at as you finish your own book.

Sentient
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Here we go again…

“What’s the point of marriage?”

The point of marriage is to have a Wife.

Not sure there is much difference between the “covenant” and “contractual” distinctions? Surely historically contractual has been primary. No contract is one sided if you have agency.

http://streamline.filmstruck.com/2007/04/26/they-called-him-a-wanderer/

Centuries
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Sentient –
[Here we go again…
“What’s the point of marriage?” The point of marriage is to have a Wife.]

Really Sentient you jest

Not sure about that, marriage is to have a wife thing….I’ve heard it said marriage is for having kids…..

Rudd
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Just another example of men not strong enough to lead their life on their own terms. Honestly, fuck em and let them rot in misery if they are so fucking blind to understand how the world really works.

toomahs
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Rollo, do you have an alternative link for the interview. The website hosting the interview killed it.

Blaximus
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Sentient I think large swaths of men cannot distinguish between a wife, gf/fb/ltr. They accept that the only difference between a wife and a gf/fb is that piece of paper. As we’ve heard a couple of years ago, ” name one benefit of promising monogamy and having a legal document blah blah blah.. “. Rollo make a.good point re: covenant. Yet society over the decades has leaned more and more towards legal requirements and remedies. Handshakes and a person’s wore are no longer to be trusted without contractual back up. Without agency and headship/leadership, men are at the mercy of… Read more »

70s AntiHero
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Rollo, If the essential moral tenant of all religions is Altruism. And if Altruism is in meaning and practice Self-Sacrifice. The antithesis of Center Point of Origin btw. Then how in the world in the context of a Feminen Primary Socail Order, (women good, men bad & unfettered female Hypergamy) are you going to argue, intorduce an old/new set of books where the woman agrees to a traditional Covenant Marriage? In other words the acceptance of woman to submit to the man as head of household. Egaulitarian equalism rules the day. I see a lot, most married couples, where the… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“What’s the point of marriage?” If fathers are baffled about the above then we’ve none to blame but ourselves why our sons are cynics and our family trees are upside down. kfg intimated about the meaning of marriage, Rollo debates downstream from the meaning, so guys tend to make up their own marriage meanings which have all the puzzle pieces but no picture. Marriage is then insufficient from the get go. There’s a lot of egotism going on here making men judges in their own case. Bad idea as it yields buffered, collapsed lives. Man accurately measures himself with something… Read more »

kfg
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“If the essential moral tenant of all religions is Altruism . . .”

It isn’t. So far as I can tell it wasn’t even a religious thing until about 500 BC.

The essential moral tenet of all religions is that you should stay on the good side of the spirits if you don’t want them to bend you over and do you sideways. Abraham was willing and ready to slit the throat of his own son just to appease one of these spirits.

kfg
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I’ve just come in from watching the newly arrived geese preparing their nesting grounds. They seem to have figured it out.

Sentient
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Centuries

“I’ve heard it said marriage is for having kids”

Well you can have kids and not be married and not have a wife…

So no.

EhIntellect
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Marriage is the most effective method in creatively perpetuating one’s self. Marriage isn’t an act. It’s a concept that when two people subjugate themselves to a greater idea than themselves ATM, they elicit sustainable meaning for themselves in the now and inperpetuity. It’s not about egg-to-sperm-making kids. All animals can have children and marriage isn’t required. Not so with humans if we’d like to stay out of the trees. Marriage is about raising children. It’s about creating an environment of not-fucked-up kids who 20 yrs down the road know how and when their genitals are most useful for them in… Read more »

EhIntellect
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BTW,

The only reason present-day divorce exists is man’s overinflated brittle ego requires excuses and a socially acceptable process to destroy something of beauty and limitless potential value.

Masochism by another name is still masochism.

Blaximus
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Subjugation isn’t a requirement for marriage.

If either party must subjugate, that’s a very bad match. Complementary.

kfg
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kfg
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Let us pray to Queen Ashtoreth Who we worship and adoreth While we do it on the flooreth And that’s good enough for me Let us pray with Aphrodite Let us pray with Aphrodite She wears that see through nighty And that’s good enough for me Let us pray with those old druids They drink fermented fluids Waltzing naked through the woo-ids And that’s good enough for me Old Time Religion had a lot to do with fertility (lilies and rabbits and eggs, oh my!), and thus a lot to do with the FI. The FI might be ruining your… Read more »

Sentient
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“A writer joins the talk. So welcome me.”

Writer my ass… Now fuck off SaucyQueer…

[Incel self promoter and sock puppet manager most recently inflicting itself on the residents of Le Chateau]

EhIntellect
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“Subjugation isn’t a requirement for marriage.” Let me explain….. If a man likes himself as is, sees no need to improve, that’s stasis. He’s confident though doesn’t get a man far. He subjugates himself to no one but himself. Imagine a young boxer, first week in the gym, satisfied with his skills. How likely will he improve if he dismisses the coaches and senior men there? Not likely. Imagine a young man who likes himself as is and sees marriage as a refuge where he can remain static. How’s that likely to turn out? A man must measure himself against… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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Sorcerygod is one of our perennial spammers, but he is at least seasonal. He’ll wilt soon enough.

Anonymous Reader
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Vernon The men that cling to these ideals are either low smv men or it works for them. E.g The pastors in my church with 6 children and an obedient wife Or they take their religion seriously, and all around them are men like this pastor Piper peddling the same blue-pill blather. Those men need to know the truth about women. They need to know what all women are capable of, both the good and the bad. Because those truths will improve the lives of such men, and the lives of their children. It’s measure of how far down the… Read more »

Rabbi KABA
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I’m not familiar with the history of the covenant marriage, did it ever include financial payments in event of the marriage ending? Or simple we are in love, let’s formalize that with a religious ceremony without making any financial arrangements As I mentioned in our interview, Jewish marriage contracts provided for a year of support (food) if there was divorce, and a widow was supported by the estate as long as she was in the household raising the kids. The default was kids stay with the father. The financial clause was enforceable by the local rabbinical court which could sell… Read more »

Westray
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“Marriage, when properly understood and lived, subjugates man to an ideal. The ideal is worth the subjugation. Marriage is a means to that best-self end.”

Are women saying this too? No, they’re not. They’re gaining 7-15 pounds a year post honeymoon. So until they are on board with this above, let’s call it a contract, then it’s null and void.

Sounds like you’re married and you’ve recently gotten yourself to do 30 situps every morning or something.

The “Man Up” shame-call comes in all kinds of Trojan horses these days in the manosphere.

EhIntellect
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“Are women saying this too? No, they’re not. They’re gaining 7-15 pounds a year post honeymoon. So until they are on board with this above, let’s call it a contract, then it’s null and void.”

Well then, to hell with dem bitches and Il’ll save a tree branch for ya.

EhIntellect
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Oh and I’m up to 6 push ups too.

Blaximus
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7-15 pounds every year post honeymoon????

😂😂😂

This is why these kind of subjects are so hilarious sometimes. Someone will always< i/> pipe up with.some statistics pulled directly from their rectum.

So… After 10 years your wife is supposed to have gained 150 pounds? I’m 20+ years in, and my wife weighs less than she did prior to marriage and didn’t gain 300 pounds according to your brilliant deduction..

😂 can’t make this shit up…..

Blaximus
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Great and timely Rollo.

Last word for today,

Before all of the crying commenters come sashaying in with cries of ” shaming/man up ” stuff, y’all dudes need to relax and cool your unmarried heels and stop being so sensitive and think a little.

Nobody’s shaming you. Personally I don’t give a half a fuck if you ” man up ” or wear fucking evening gowns every day. Just don’t complain here because nobody here is doing anything to you irl.

Pathetic.

….. Made me go all ” scribs “.😂

Have a good night, to all my non-shamed brethren.

Al Du Clur
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What most Christian clergy have no interest in understanding is that feminism and the contractual marriage are cornerstones, as is the Divorce Industrial Complex, in the war against Christianity and the family. By enabling the system the clergy is actually working against everything they are supposed to value and fight for leader

Westray
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Oh guess what? It’s an OMG fluff party in the comments…Same names, same boilerplate, same puffed up chests, year in, year out, the OMGs getting all snuggly.

Arthur
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Arthur
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Great post Rollo. As always, Rational Mind Wins.
When your new book is coming out?

mrlovingkindness
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The winning answer to “God said get married,” is that what is called marriage today is not marriage as God intended. In fact, we should call marriage today by a different (derogatory) word to distinguish it from actual marriage as existed in the past. I would argue that the main reason men get married today is that on some level they think they are getting the old kind of marriage, because the propagandists who created the new marriage intentionally used the same word marriage for something completely different.

EhIntellect
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“In fact, we should call marriage today by a different (derogatory) word to distinguish it from actual marriage…”

Yay. This guy gets Grammar > Logic > Rhetoric.

Btw, just try claiming marriage isn’t two dudes proclaiming their mutual love and financials and in a New York second you’ll be publicly pilloried.

scribblerg
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Re: @Blax – On Blax’s best day, he’s never “gone all scribs” – he doesn’t have the requisite knowledge or intellectual depth to do so, but he does like to take cheap shots which is what he did in that comment. Note how he doesn’t engage with a scintilla of the substantive analysis and commentary I make typically. Keep taking cheap shots, Blax, it only reveals what a dick you are IRL, beyond the pose you put God knows how many hours into creating here. Lol, as usual, dealing with Blax is light work.

scribblerg
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@KFG and @Sentient killin’ it and grillin’ it as usual. A few thoughts. What should a man do? Different answers for different men. Young men thinking about marriage and starting a family? Middle-aged guy, post-divorce trying to re-assemble a life? OMGs? Atheists? Fundo Christians? Got it yet? There is no one answer. All decisions have risks. Women have never been “locked down” by a man, especially by men who are incompetent at masculinity and and Blue Pilled and a pussy, this just in. I think the best approach would be to create the frame of “covenant marriage” and that this… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“scintilla of the substantive analysis…”

ScribblerG should put his scintilla money where his overwrought mouth is.

Comments should be like miniskirts: short enough to keep interest, long enough to cover the content.

Brevity is the soul.

Blaximus
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Lol, you know I’m going to tear you a brand new asshole on that blue pilled shit you called a conversation right?

” I’m a protector… “…

😂

” I’ll never hit you.. ”

😂😂

Gameless.

Demonstrate don’t exolicate. Sound familiar?

You still have a ways to go in your red pill journey. You’re not ” getting it ” fully. Intellectually ( 😂😂) you still insist on rationality at the end of the day with females. Your example of the conversation is sad for a.man that insists he is Alpha, again and again.

More like Alpo.

kfg
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” . . . what is called marriage today is not marriage . . .”

Civil Union(tm) killed marriage, gutted it, and is now walking around wearing its skin and demanding its respect.

” . . . we should call marriage today by a different (derogatory) word to distinguish it from actual marriage . . .”

Just call it what it is and let its own nature color the meaning.

Sentient
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westray They’re gaining 7-15 pounds a year post honeymoon. Nah. Sure there are some women who do, but this is not universal by any means. In my demo at least half of the late 40’s mid 50s women (all with children) are slender and well put together and work at it with their abundant free time. Married ones. If you marry, marry a hottie, she will have too much vanity to get fat… she’s competed her whole life, she ain’t giving it up now… But even so.. cue the joke: Wife: Honey… will you still wuv me if I got… Read more »

70s AntiHero
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@ Kfg “The essential moral tenet of all religions is that you should stay on the good side of the spirits if you don’t want them to bend you over and do you sideways. Abraham was willing and ready to slit the throat of his own son just to appease one of these spirits.” Isn’t this in practice, self sacrifice and therefore Altruism? Who is the arbitor of “staying on the good side of the spirits”? A subordination of ones own self, judgement to the/an authority? Altruism is the moral bases of religion. The meaning, debatable? As far as marriage… Read more »

Sentient
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70’santihero

One could argue that the formula for a successful marriage is to be a strong enough man in which he can implicitly perform, using game to hold frame, as ‘head of household’ while explicitly collaborating a mutually agreed upon understanding of the spiritual guidance of religion and the heart felt apprectiaion of the sembiotic complimentary roles between a husband and wife. Trust being paramount.

One could just boil all that down to: Ride or Die…
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Surely a 1970’s anti-hero can get behind that.?

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Sentient
My now 27 YO is getting married soon

That makes her quite typical. Average, even.

SJF
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“Isn’t this in practice, self sacrifice and therefore Altruism? Who is the arbitor of “staying on the good side of the spirits”? A subordination of ones own self, judgement to the/an authority? Altruism is the moral bases of religion. The meaning, debatable?” Isn’t this putting the cart before the horse? I’d call it a false premise. Altruism takes place in marriage and kids and in religion. Sure, but it is not the basis. I am not a religion practitioner, but near as I can figure and know a bit, a man has himself live each day the way the divine… Read more »

kfg
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” Isn’t this in practice, self sacrifice and therefore Altruism? ” No, and people who tell you it is are after something from you that is in their benefit, but against yours. “It hurts me more than it hurts you,” is bullshit. Altruistic self sacrifice is slitting your own throat to save the life of another. If Abraham were to behave altruistically he should have offered himself in Isaac’s place. “Altruism is the moral bases of religion.” Sales brochure nonsense to get you to buy certain religions. Other religions offer self serving ends for harming others. Could it be, oooooooooooh,… Read more »

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kfg

Civil Union(tm) The Child Support model killed marriage, gutted it, and is now walking around wearing its skin and demanding its respect.

FIFY.

The Child Support model predates Civll Union by at least a generation.

This is a fact that beta cucks like Piper simply cannot grasp, and as a result they offer bad advice to men. Because they don’t have any good advice.

Testi
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I did a traditional marriage in 2016, only signed the govt papers this year. 2 small kids so far with wife, she has gained weight. The little time I spend with her during the day when I’m not at work, she does no exercise whatsoever. She said she wants to join a gym, but gym requires discipline. I doubt she will last a week. A female personal trainer looks like a better idea, but wife has not even done one pushup/squat/plank ever since we started looking for a trainer 3 weeks ago. I don’t know what to do. Should I… Read more »

Sentient
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testi

How can I get this wreck back on track?

Focus on you for a few months. Get your shit together. Then start passing her shit tests… then start demonstrating that other women find you attractive… Proceed form there.

O.B.I.T.
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God and faith are still relevant, but organized religion has folded its hand and now answers to a higher authority — the mass media. Which of course is increasingly driven by the Feminine Imperative.

As a companion to Rollo’s great piece I recommend an essay called Addicted to Distraction, looking at how opinions and feelings have largely replaced or inverted objective facts, truth and moral guidance

Sentient
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and Testi…

This is the best piece of exercise equipment for her. and you…
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kfg
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“God said get married” God said “Marry your childless brother’s widow.”* Onan spilled his seed on the ground so as not pay child support and disinherit himself. Marriage is about inheritance rights, i.e. “child support.” The modern Child Support Political Economy, which is something different from simple child support, is a consequence of legal divorce. For the purposes of Empire building the replacement of marriage with Civil Union started in Britain well before it did in America, ahead of the Tender Years Doctrine. No civil divorce, no need for the Tender Years Doctrine to have arisen. *Jesus said some men… Read more »

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Here’s the link, since it seems there’s a shitload of similar titles online. Amazingly prescient for 2014, it pegs in passing how “the working man” has gone from hero to villain

http://addictedtodistraction.blogspot.com/

kfg
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“She said she wants to join a gym”

The bedridden lose weight. Exercise is not for losing weight. In fact in a clinically ideal world exercise would always result in weight gain.

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Blaximus
Demonstrate don’t exolicate. Sound familiar?

Not really. Something women do with their legs? Something the US Army did in ‘Nam jungles? A step in some industrial chemical process?

kfg
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“Amazingly prescient for 2014”

Clifford Simak predicted it in the 50s, leading to hikikomori and eventually an almost universal agoraphobia. He didn’t predict the Internet specifically, but he predicted what the Internet does.

“. . . “the working man” has gone from hero to villain . . .”

Ironically, mostly by people who consider themselves Marxists.

70's AntiHero
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Kfg Like I said, the definition of Altruism perhaps is debatable. From Dictionary.com al·tru·ism /ˈaltro͞oˌizəm/ noun the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. “some may choose to work with vulnerable elderly people out of altruism” synonyms: unselfishness, selflessness, self-sacrifice, self-denial; More ZOOLOGY behavior of an animal that benefits another at its own expense. For consideration- It is my own self interest to provide for my daughter. My greatest value. Any small or subordinate sacrifice made along the way, that I make in this behalf is done so in deference to MY greater… Read more »

Blaximus
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AR

” explicate “. Spellchecker doing it’s thing.

Not Born This Morning
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The fundamentals of the covenant and the contract have always existed in religion (including in secular versions). They are paradigms with archetypes that reflect tangible phenomena. We witness a struggle to come to terms with either retaining them as they are, or redefining them in the face of real change. This change is initiated by a departure from natural biology. This departure from natural biology is initiated by man made agents that alter the natural process. Nothing has changed about people except new people are born who replace old people in the life cycle. Humans are still born as humans,… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
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“I was genuinely surprised to hear Dr. Piper disagree with the idea of separating the marriage models we’d discussed at the time, but to have him state that he wasn’t willing to somehow give up on the heroic fight to reform the ‘Contractual’ marriage was, in hindsight, kind of disingenuous. In both instances, with respect to headship and authority, and the reluctance to let go of the contractual definition of marriage.” Dr. Piper spoke eloquently. If more time were available I wonder if he might have queried Rollo’s take on contractual marriage. Dr. Piper: Rollo, in the event a marriage… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“my marriage due to my ex’s “frivorce”.

Nothing learned.

ScribblerG’s headslap example. Much heat, little light.

Paniym
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Just wondering if Rollo has maybe considered this argument from the scriptures in his newest book. Gen 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” It might have been that God did originally intend men and women to live egalitarian but that all changed at the fall (Gen 3:16) and God literally changed the character of women to desire, long and crave their husband (Strongs H8669 Hebrew lexicon) and that men would… Read more »

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Pniym I think this should be the general argument against the feminist apologist pastors in the church. I’ve been a Christian for almost 50 years I do not mean to discourage you, and absolutely no offense intended, but have you ever tried that general argument on any pastor or priest? There’s several different forms of deflection / squid ink that can be used, from “In the Hebrew…” to “New translations…” to “Why do you hate women?” and so forth. Bible quotes can be bent, folded and tortured into some odd shapes. Generally you won’t get a logical response, but rather… Read more »

foxguy
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A lot of handwringing on the red pill about marriage, a lot of people know it’s a shit show anyway, even non red pill. I cringed when a very beta guy at work said he was taking wedding pictures one day at the foosball, his mindset is deep beta, doesn’t stand a chance. The community seems to be stuck on embracing the decline of the west vs trying to keep it going. All this shit isn’t even really about women when you think deeply on it, it’s about men and doing the hard work both physical and emotional, and some… Read more »

j
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13:30

https://youtu.be/zsdElV7FsMM?t=809

S T A T U S pill

Sam Botta (@sambotta)
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@Testi Rollo says exactly what to do about this in “THE RATIONAL MALE” (Volume One) Book and Audiobook.

dolph
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Be careful when discussing anything, including religion, let alone the relations between the sexes, in an American context. Remember guys, the religion of America is America. All of the following are subreligions: Christianity, Judaism, money making, consumerism, celebrity and athlete worship, suburban house/cars/college, etc. A Christian pastor is not interested in getting Christian men and women together, supporting Christian families, and making sure there is a next generation of Christians. He is interested in getting American men and women together, supporting American families, and making sure there is a next generation of Americans. Americans are conditioned from birth to see… Read more »

Centuries
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@Sentient
[Centuries “I’ve heard it said marriage is for having kids”

Well you can have kids and not be married and not have a wife…
So no.]

So now I never said having kids couldn’t be accomplished w/o marriage or a wife, now that would be silly, of course the current state of the FI has that covered.

I also didn’t define marriage or wife. How would you propose raising kids?

rugby11
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Sentient
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J

So much for looksmaxing eh?

Behold the manlet…

Keep chopping wood. You will get there yet.

Jafyk
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https://therationalmale.com/2019/04/20/raiders-of-the-lost-covenant/#comment-273326 Well, the answer is that people in general do not really believe in God as they claim at least in terms of having a day to day basis and influence in their lives. You may disagree but surely, your actions betray you. Something else to consider is that human nature existed long before religion. All religion does is try to rewire that human nature and half of the time it is unsuccessful or creates a hybrid of that human nature. In other words we compartmentalize religion and our daily lives. An example of this is we go to church… Read more »

Blaximus
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Jettisoned ” religion ” 40 years ago and never once looked back. I’m mostly in line with jafyk’s sentient on the subject. Imo, the problem stems from people searching for ways to shirk responsibility for their own lives and actions. ” God, instruct me how to live and think so I can have a unquestionable excuse handy “. The bulk of ” Christians ” I’ve ever met in life never bothered to actually read the bible itself, and they have been some of the most judgemental and mean spirited folks I’ve ever run across. The exact opposite of those ”… Read more »

Limitless
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Any flavour of religion is crutch for week minded people who needs someone in authority to tell them what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil. Said that I also admit that there are no unbelievers in trenches. However until one must cling to imaginary hope to withstand unbearable psychological pressure, there are no use for any religion. Today likes of Jordan Peterson proclaim that Christian religion is basis of western morality. I beg to differ. If one would look, same western morality and even more so are found in Nordic, Baltic and Russian… Read more »

kfg
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” God, instruct me how to live and think so I can have a unquestionable excuse handy “ Gods instructing people on how to live is a rather recent invention. Back in the day the spirits messed with you (for your benefit or harm) and left you on your own to figure out what the hell (as it were) they wanted. And figuring it out wasn’t a question of morals, it was a question of life and death. Questions of religion were something like figuring out if it was safe to cross the street or not, only the cars were… Read more »

kfg
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“. . . Christian religion is basis of western morality.”

The author of Ethics, indeed the inventor of the term, championed to The Church by Saint Francis, was a pagan.

Sentient
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Centuries

I also didn’t define marriage or wife.

Well they have real historical and cultural definitions. A Wife is different from a baby mama, a partner, a [fill in the blank] and there are reasons for that.

How would you propose raising kids?

Been down this road, in brief, within a marriage.

EhIntellect
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“Any flavour of religion is crutch for week minded people who needs someone in authority to tell them what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil.” The tool is as good as the person wielding it. Religion attempts a written and spoken codification of human existence that perpetuates man. It is not the whole story and such is vulnerable to misinterpretation and corruption. It’s a crutch for some, a liberation for others. Blax does not need religion. Fine. IMO, we need religion in our aggregate as when right and wrong is up for public… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“The author of Ethics, indeed the inventor of the term, championed to The Church by Saint Francis, was a pagan.”

Coming out of the 12th century St. Francis redefined man’s relationship to the created world. There was a lot of nature worship going on prior. The Church had underwent a pagan purge only just.

The relevance to RP is this: A pagan reverence of nature, which often included women eroticised beyond their true value, steers men off the rails. They’re just girls. So let’s not say they are something else as if you do they then can become your god.

Sentient
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eh

They’re just girls. So let’s not say they are something else as if you do they then can become your god.

So Mother Mary came to me… speaking words of wisdom. Let it beeeee…..

Testi
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Focus on me for a few months.
Rational Male vol 1. Got it. Will keep posting.
As for marriage, here in South Africa its the go-to step in “growing up”. Plus, theres a dowry to be paid for the bride-to-be, one of my cousins just paid R80 000.
And thats for a girl he dated BEFORE his 2 failed marriages.
Yeah, its tough out here.

SJF
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@Testi If you are new to married red pill, there is a wealth of information and discussion on Married Red Pill Reddit. The new version of it buries what is called “The Sidebar Material” for the discussion forum. That sidebar material can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/wiki/config/sidebar In your situation, at this point in time, it would be best to work on yourself over the next 18 months to be on more solid ground in the future. With your wife taking care of the youngsters, they are her first priority and you are distant 4th or 5th in line for her… Read more »

Sentient
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Testi

That’s $5,600 USD. Could be worse… EE girls go for a lot more!

EhIntellect
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@ Testi

Hey man, thx for commenting. What’s the tipping point for a man not to have to pay a dowry?

I’m positive not all South African men pay dowries nor are all South African women soullessly monitized.

Cultural norms ate a thing and I respect that. Then again a lot of the FI driven cultural expectations around me are selectively applied and dismissed in certain cases.

No different in South Africa, I expect.

Fact
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You settled for sex once a week in the missionary position, while she did ALL those things with other men before she met you, that she refuses do with you now.

We all know how this is going to end.

kfg
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” . . . for a man not to have to pay a dowry?”

The word is gendered. The masculine is dower.

Anonymous Reader
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OT
Dennis Mangan makes a convincing case for carbs in general and glucose in particular as aging accelerants.

http://roguehealthandfitness.com/how-carbohydrates-and-not-protein-promote-aging/

This inverts the standard USDA food pyre pyramid from the last century. Reality doesn’t care what agribiz and big pharma like…a

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It is a fact that the majority of men in the US are religious one way or another, and a majority of them are some flavor of Christian. No, I will not play the game of “No True Christian”. Yeah, ok, “no god”, fine, “mah spirits” whatever, “don’t need no religion” cool by me. In the real world, away from the “mah EGO’ of manosphere comments, men are not going to give up their religion, and they are getting bad advice from their preacher / priest / etc. Telling those men “hurr durr, yer stupid” is not an argument. Rollo… Read more »

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@Testi This thread about you should really be in the Field Reports section. And there is some framework to Married Red Pill. There was an old distiller of the manosphere back in like 2011 called Athol Kay from New Zealand. He was a beta that marshaled his mindset and found and married an American girl. He used the distilled manosphere info to generate some male action plans for males and then wrote about it. But then he got the feminine involved (in monetizing his site) and his method and credibility devolved. But he gets credit for having started on good… Read more »

EhIntellect
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“The masculine is dower.”

Nice and Danke schoen.

I will use that in at least 3 conversations this week.

foxguy
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Sigh, and this from s guy who fashions himself as awake. The Red Queen principle, nature is ruthless, religion used to help fill this void. https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-masculinity “But the biggest problem with these external metrics – making more money, being stronger and more domineering than the competition, having sex as much as possible – is that they never end. If you measure yourself by how much money you make, then whatever you earn will never be enough. If you measure yourself by how strong and dominant you can be, then no amount of power will ever satisfy you. If you measure… Read more »

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