The Marriage Game

As a few of my readers know my daughter is presently a sophomore at college. Every time she reaches a new milestone in her life I have a tendency to mentally go back in time in my own life and consider how utterly different her experiences are in comparison to my own. At 19 the thought of being as organized and honestly well off as she is in life now would never have occurred to me. For a very brief moment in my life back then I’d kept a journal of what it was I was doing and thinking at the time. My first ‘real’ girlfriend had given me this blank journal (she was one of those girls who wrote diaries) to write my thoughts in and being the Beta I was then most of it was filled with my Blue Pill frustration with girls. She’d gifted me this journal, I found out later, as an effort to absolve her of all the guilt she knew was coming her way for having cheated on me and deciding that, at 18 herself, she wanted to move on into her Party Years without the baggage of a dutiful Beta who thought he was going to marry her.

This was 1988 and the then 19 year old Rollo Tomassi was very much a typical Blue Pill Beta. I sometimes read back through the dozen or so pages I actually took the time to write back then to remind myself how I thought back then. I was very much and idealistic Beta back then, but I had several other friends who subscribed to the same Blue Pill delusions; and now with hindsight I realize this phase in a Beta’s life is one that was around long before and long after I went through it. This was the ‘Break Phase’ I outline in Preventive Medicine.

As it turned out, the girl who I predictably developed ONEitis for, the first girl to spread her legs for me (‘enthusiastically’), the girl I thought had to be “quality” if she appreciated a guy like me, was every bit the ‘play the field’ skank I would’ve never called her because it was what a “typical male” would say about her. At one point I had thought I’d want to marry her. My Blue Pill conditioning had taught me it would be the right, “supportive” thing to do; marry her and support her ambitions and goals (it’s what good Blue Pill boys ought to do) at the sacrifice of my own. And as directionless as I was then, that was an easy decision to make.

My daughter recently informed me that her boyfriend’s best friend just proposed to his girlfriend at 19. Both this guy and his girlfriend are also sophomores at the same school and this is what triggered the reminiscing for me. At 49, and having lived the life I have and the experiences I use on this blog today, I’m very glad my first girlfriend dumped me. That’s hard to say sometimes, particularly when I think back on the pit of misery years I spent with the BPD girlfriend I’d gotten involved with later, but I’m thankful for those bad experiences as much as the good ones. So, it’s really difficult for me to tell my daughter’s friend “oh, congratulations”.

It’s very difficult for me to endorse anyone getting married at so early an age these days or when I was 19. Modern marriage is a menagerie of horrors for today’s men. People say, “Rollo you’re married, how come you’re so hard on marriage?” It’s either that or they presume my marriage is a shit show and I’m venting like a petulant boy. When I’m critical of marriage it’s in spite of my own (very happy for 21 years) marriage. But I cannot condone it for men today – not in its present state. Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I’ve written in many prior posts that I don’t necessarily agree with that assessment, but I do understand it. The risks today far outweigh the rewards, but still there are men who, even with Red Pill awareness, will still take it on.

There’s a running debate I have going on with Hunter Drew (The Family Alpha) and Tanner Guzy (Masculine Style) about how marriage is a lifestyle decision, and depending on how informed a man is about the risks he assumes and when he decides to get married, this decision is literally a question of life or death for that guy. Both these guys married early in life, both have kids, and both will have far different experiences than myself in this respect. Both of them and myself have assumed the risks and sacrifices this entails. I’m fully aware that my wife can detonate the marriage at any time. I’m sure both Hunter and Tanner are well aware that their wives also have the right to have them removed from their home and take their children away from them for any reason. But we’re all married, and as I wrote in Surrender, we have all willingly put ourselves in the most vulnerable position a man can be in; we’ve bet our lives, livelihoods and the future health and happiness of our kids and families on what today is the ultimate suckers bet for a man. And what’s worse, we cannot ever expect women or our wives to ever relate with just how dangerous a position we willingly put ourselves in.

So I’m thinking about all of this after my daughter tells me about this 19 year old kid proposing to his girlfriend. Statistically his marriage will end before he’s 28. I would also bet that, like myself at 19, he’s making a decision that will affect him and his fiancé’s based on Blue Pill idealism – an idealism that’s informed by the Feminine Imperative and delusions of egalitarian equalism. Naturally I can’t possibly think this is a good idea. If I were this boy’s father I’d strongly advise against it, but there are others in the manosphere who would encourage this.

“Grown” Men

There’s an old saying that goes “marriage is our last, best chance for growing up”. I also disagree with this from the perspective of today’s version of marriage, but I understand how homey platitudes like this are appealing to a social order of men who it seems don’t want to grow up. It’s becoming a new way of AMOGing (particularly in religious circles); if you’ve got your shit together enough to see the wisdom in being married and starting a family you’re a “better man” than the ‘boys’ who they believe want to extend their adolescence. It’s really nothing new.

According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.

This is one half of strategic pluralism theory for men. Men who invest themselves in the long term aspect will always look for ways to validate their inability or unwillingness to pursue multiple partners. It’s easy to think that these men make their necessity a virtue, and that may or may not be the case, but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. The Blue Pill has always subjugated men to be predisposed to the one-mate investment strategy while simultaneously encouraging women to adopt a multiple mate strategy. That may seem counterintuitive, but when we look at the Sheryl Sandberg plan for Hypergamy we can see that what they believe is prudence is having a large selection of potential husbands from which to choose.

In Trad-Con manosphere thinking it seems like conventional wisdom to encourage men and women to marry younger. Look at where we’re at today; women forestall marriage – ostensibly to further a career, but really to falsely extend their Hypergamous decision making years – until their Epiphany Phase (29-31) or even beyond by freezing their eggs. Men take much more time to mature into their peak SMV potential, but what’s the common complaint? These men aren’t “being men” by preparing themselves for a life of family and marriage. They aren’t catering their lives’ decisions to fulfill women’s sexual strategy, and really what incentive do they have to when women are following the Sandbergian path of Hypergamy? Men and women marry later and later – if at all. Women unmarried by the time they’re 34-35 are likely to never marry in their lives.

Marrying Early

So it seems like wisdom to tell this kid, “good on you”, in spite of all the odds staked against him and despite the Blue Pill idealistic delusions that are prompting him to propose. Trad-Cons love the idea of a return to something resembling “traditional values” in order to save western culture from itself, but it’s important to remember that those old books values are really just leverage in a new books world.

Marrying early, as I said, is usually the result of Blue Pill naiveté. Both young men and women are still ignorant of who they are or who they have a potential to become. I see a lot of early-marrieds originating in religious circles because this is their only means to “legitimate” sex, but there are the guys who see marrying early a better way to ensure ‘permanent’ sex for themselves. In some respects it’s almost a blessing that women at this age are so anti-marriage – most young men on the investment side of strategic pluralism are far too willing to kill their own dreams to accommodate their investment.

Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally, but it doesn’t remove the evolved influence. By the time that 20 year old mother and wife is 30, she’s had ten years to develop the resentment of her choice by living vicariously through her single girlfriends’ experiences. The context may change, but Hypergamy doesn’t.

Early marriage limits a man’s potential. Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Aristotle said, “The Ideal age for marriage in men is 35. The Ideal age for marriage in women is 18”, not unlike my sexual market value graph, but the reason for this is because it takes much longer for a man to establish himself as a man. The simple truth is that part of the sacrifice of being married means a man will not be able to capitalize on opportunities he would have were he single. Some opportunities may never even be made available to him because of him being married. This isn’t something most early-marrying men consider.

Men who marry early and stick it out through their peak SMV years often feel the mid-life crisis (epiphany) years much more acutely. This is kind of the man’s making up for missing out resentment a wife may feel as she becomes more and more aware that she can’t compete in the SMP for a better Hypergamous prospect. I don’t believe men have a “crisis” per se around this time, but what they do experience is a sense of introspection that’s colored by their now better capacity to understand the game they’ve been a part of with regards to women. When a man’s married well this is less of an issue, but there is a definite remorse over the “life he could’ve lived” if only he’d known better. This is an assessment of the sacrifices he’s made, how they paid off (if at all) and a sort of survey of his life up to that point.

The biggest ‘con’ to early marriage is that it’s always going to be a learn as you go prospect while trying to establish a world that a his wife of the future will want to defer herself to. This worked far better in a culture and time when women would be compelled to defer to a man’s mastery due to religion, social norms and respect. We do not live in those day anymore and women have actionable ‘outs’ of any commitment that doesn’t suit them, while men have more responsibilities to qualify themselves to suit women.

Advantages?

Early marriage has a few advantages, but all of these depend on the personal nature of the woman a man marries. That sounds kind of obvious, but if you go into a marriage with a solid Frame and a woman who expects to defer to your dominance, I think young marrieds might have a better shot at long term success. If a woman is a virgin, yes, this can be a real source of attachment for her if her husband imprints on her as solidly dominant Alpha. I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate. There is far too significant and imprinting with virgin women and sex with an Alpha man, or even a guy who seemed Alpha. This is the recipe for an Alpha Widow, but in a marriage it can make for a strong bond.

As has been mentioned countless times, the most stable and healthy way to raise children is in a committed marriage. This might be the only advantage marriage may have for a man today. In an early marriage I would think that a woman being at her sexual market value peak, combined with following her true biological clock (her prime fertility window 22-26) the odds of having happy healthy children are improved. I have a cousin who spent more than half his life building himself into a millionaire architect, but at my age (49) his children are 5 and 7. I can’t imagine living this life now. I suppose money might make it easier, but evolutionarily speaking he and I should effectively be grandfathers by now. I married at 28 and there are advantages and disadvantages to this as well, but I cannot imagine having young children at my age.

Finally, for the “well, duh” moment, it goes without saying that a young wife/mother should necessarily be playing on your team. The only possible successful prospect for a younger marriage to have any stability is if that woman understands what it is she’s sacrificing. Women likewise sacrifice their own personal potentials and later this becomes their source of resentment. The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage.

In the Trad-Con sphere today there is a constant droning for personal responsibility on the part of men. There is little to none about the responsibilities of women. We’re constantly told that women are only the way they are because men have allowed it. I’ve written before that this is a cop out and an absolving of women’s complicity that mirrors what the Feminine Imperative has put forth. Women are taught not to do anything “for a man” and anything a woman does that might be expressly for a man is is conflated with subservience. Consequently we get generations of women who only indulge their natural solipsism and expect men’s sacrifices as part of the utilities. This is one of the primary reasons all marriages fail; there is no complementarity. Marriage becomes nothing but a naked exchange of resources on the part of the man and anything a woman might do ‘for’ him is frowned upon. And don’t think this is just limited to those blue haired feminists, you can find it at your church.

Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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mpo
mpo
3 years ago

@blax

Longtime lurker here, I actually think you are crushing it with the stories and comments in general and I find them immenselly valuable. So I hope they keep on coming.

Höllenhund
Höllenhund
3 years ago

” A young man age 19 (or ANY age for that matter) would be wise to simply take inventory of the intersexual relations with in his own proximity. Just take a look at his own father and grandfathers, uncles, brothers, friends and colleagues and also any nephews he has. It’s not even those men in his life who are divorced, separated from their children, going to jail or hopelessly paying off unaudited child support and lifetime alimony amounts. No, he merely needs to look at all of the men who are still married, most of whom are completely fucking sexless… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

Lol. You just can’t help yourself. The way you bitch and complain regarding me..the things you say, the manner you say them, and you say ” I ” just don’t get it? I wouldn’t know what guys in bars are talking about, so you got me there. We’re practically the same age. Scrib, why of why haven’t you done more with your life? Your half century plus on this earth? Why aren’t you doing more now? Bitter hater. You talk about the scroll button. Well? Yes I play guitar. My dad taught me. Yes I raced cars. My male family… Read more »

SJB
SJB
3 years ago

@Rollo: There is a world of Betas out there who did exactly this at a very early age because they thought it was their key to endearing women to them. They gave up their good opinion of themselves and consequently no woman ever wanted them. My understanding of Peterson’s future orientation: We use stories to regulate our emotions and govern our behavior. They provide the present we inhabit with a determinate point of reference—the desired future. The optimal “desired future” is not a state, however, but a process: the (intrinsically compelling) process of mediating between order and chaos; the process… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

@ mpo

Thank you. Man, I’m only trying to encourage guys here any way I can. Hell, I’m talking about stuff here that I don’t talk about offline, with anyone.

I know I’m long winded, and I tend to repeat the same stuff over and over, lol. But reading Rollo/TRM and other great commenters here makes me want to contribute as well.

Lol, but most of what it got is ” back when I was ‘ X ‘ age…”.

M Simon
3 years ago

I was never an alcoholic or a substance abuser

PTSD (the cause of most substance abuse) is a bitch. Worse – it is genetic. So you will likely get no chance at the experience.

My experience is those that have never dealt with it have absolutely NO CLUE. Which is why our laws are so stupid. We are going to punish people in pain. Yeah. Perfectly logical.

If I have the video qued up right it should take less than a minute to get the information from a person who has studied the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/8neKS93z7Qg?start=795

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

“Not getting married is no insulation from the problems that beset you guys (Rob and his friends). But until you get out of the anger phase. (That’s a tell of anger phase: “Marriage Sucks, Don’t Do IT! when you have no skin in the game of contemplating marriage. ” IMO with marriage value so low, the value of single life is at record heights for men of all ages and lifestyles. What’s with all the dour mood about the collapse of marriage? Dour moods about past divorces? Dour moods about misbehaving women? As long as you’re unattached, your options are… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

Let me try that again. She works with men in prison.

Think about it. If we better understood PTSD we could eliminate at least 70% of our crime problem. AT LEAST.

https://youtu.be/8neKS93z7Qg?t=13m15s

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

I’ve given this a lot of thought, and I’m gonna surprise you. Blax (being the BSing natural alpha that he is) has asked the crucial question on this thread. What is going on with men? I had to dig through lots of BS to get at that gem, but nonetheless it is the issue men must address here. Caveat before I start: Guys, be really careful with alpha/beta distinctions. First of all, they don’t even work in the animal kingdom that well to understand intersexual behavior. The terms come from pack behavior and are really about social status. Dominant behavior… Read more »

Markos Beers
Markos Beers
3 years ago

Regarding Briffault’s Law, especially regarding what happens with the children, my lack of Frame allowed this to negatively affect my son’s life. It was THE source of the break-up (my crap frame, Lack of awareness of Briffaults Law). I acquiesced for far too long, and was incensed when my attempts to establish frame regarding his health and development were rebuffed.

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

M Simon My maternal grandfather was a world class alcoholic. That’s still a little hard to type, as he died a year before I was born and I’ve kinda spent my whole life wishing I’d had a chance to know him. My mom battled the bottle for a while. I had a cousin that I loved and looked up to return from Vietnam with a heroin addiction and he died on the streets of Washington d.c. homeless. I kinda think addictive behavior is genetic in some manner. I’m not convinced fully on the PTSD angle, but honesty I haven’t read… Read more »

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
3 years ago

Actually thinking this through, even in the workplace I’m not sure an apology is necessary. Yes I agree. I wasn’t clear on what I do in this situation. I don’t apologize – I admit my idea didn’t work and basically say “you’re right – let’s do it your way”. Not the same as apologizing to gf. 99% of things she wants apologies for are her feelz were hurt in some way, Yup that’s it. My idea is let’s get the shitshow over with fast so it doesn’t drag on the rest of the day. In my previous 28-year marriage conflicts… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

Re: Mineter and Kate – I nearly peed myself…Finally a lot less lecturing from people who’ve got little to say. Thank God. Shocker that you made a mess of it, ROFLMAO. Couldn’t happen to more deserving people. They are emblematic of a serious problem in our society – so many people dispensing advice and commentary who’s actual lives are a sad joke. Like you’d never want to be them or have what they have in reality, but in this chimerical digital world, it’s not hard to build a “brand” and stand yourself up based on complete horseshit – AND JUST… Read more »

Lost Patrol
Lost Patrol
3 years ago

@ Blaximus “and I tend to repeat the same stuff over and over, lol.” Sometimes the situation calls for it. Men keep wandering in from the desert to various oases like TRM. This is a good thing. They ask questions that have been answered before and while they may read a lot of old essays here they probably haven’t made it through a million comments. Telling it again to a new join, a fresh set of eyes and ears, is not the same as my father or father-in-law telling me the same story 50 times. “I may have told you… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@ palmasailor “7% Nett of inflation for 40 years?” The 25 year and 100 year S&P 500 real return with dividends reinvested is 7.3% (9.7% & 10.4% unadjusted for inflation, respectively) https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/ Like I said, people in the world need a lot more knowledge on personal finance and investments. People will spend 45 hours a week at work, 10 hours+ manosphere, 10 hrs+/wk tv, lifting etc but can’t spend 30 minutes learning about improving a very important aspect of one’s life. Blaximus – good (but long) post. As for these with my wife: “How does she respond to you when… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@ Blaximus

Re: Keto – You end up with more than enough protein (but not too much to kick you off ketosis) on a keto diet to lift and build muscle unless you are trying to look like a hulking mass. I don’t have the time or desire to do that and if I was working out that much, I wouldn’t need keto anyway. This isn’t the first time I’ve done this and I’ve always had good results.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

“I’d argue could likely do kids just as well.”

Rob,

Argue away.

Kids aren’t easily manipulated portfolios. If all you have is a hammer…

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Rob,

Re: that strong desire to have kids thing…

All women have a strong desire to have kids, including your wife too and it does go away…ever.

I’d imagine this in itself is a unspoken grudge she has against you. Yeah she’ll try spending her sorrow away, surround herself with friends, but the reality remains. Her eggs are as well as dead…and you’ll take the blame.

Jonathan Castle
Jonathan Castle
3 years ago

@ palmasailor

Yes sir, I have indeed experienced divorce at 42, when it sucked financially.

A divorce at 28 would have been way better in the big scheme of things, especially if you walk away with kids.

Kids are they only thing we really need from women (at least most men). Once you got that, your ZFG power with women is off the charts.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

doesn’t go away…ever.

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

@ Rob

Agree. Keto is some good shit. I was skeptical but figured I’d try it anyway. I’ve been amazed.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

@ Castle

Jesus…kids aren’t groceries. You don’t “get” them.

Fuck, what type of anarchy y’all developing for yourselves?

Have y’all no allegiance to anyone?

Some of you guys sound certified sociopathic the way you speak of your own children, real or not.

I like Scrib. He does and says the right thing when it really counts.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

EI – “Argue away.” 1) The only real risk of not being able to raise your kids is an unstable home. If you are alpha and do all the things you and others have suggested, you can keep that woman in a LTR without splitting up. 2) The modern day version of marriage has only been around for the last 1500 years or so and (it’s changed drastically against men in the last 50-60), but yet kids were probably more obedient based on what we know than modern day kids are. A successful kid is an obedient kid. Re: my… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob I’m probably 20% beta, 80% alpha in my life, in general. But I’ll give you that I’m beta on that Being situationally alpha outside of your intersexual dynamic doesn’t count. What she sees is what she gets. It’s binary. Either you are Alpha in her eyes or not. There is no 80%… Will you answer me why you think people should get married if they don’t want kids? What can they get out of a marriage that they can’t get in a non-married LTR without kids? Do you not dispute the risk/reward isn’t great? Sure… The answer is… get… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob

There is no reason to get married until divorce and alimony laws are changed.

Some historical context… these laws have not changed appreciably since the 80’s… Nothing was “sprung” on you 10 years ago.

Let it go…

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Rob,

You’re missing the point. Our whole present day existence is built upon those willing to take the monogamy with potential children plunge. 1500 years ago? Nice irrelevant history lesson.

You love debate as you’ve got no real responsibilities and your job doesn’t count.

You revel in inconsequence. The closer to death you are the more you’ll regret it.

Jonathan Castle
Jonathan Castle
3 years ago

@ Intellect Your Victorian sensibilities are easily ruffled. Young men do indeed need to analyse exactly what they want from marriage. There is a transactional core to our relationships with women and marriage. They know what they want and have been gaming men hard for sixty years. If a young man doesn’t develop a strategy for life and marriage he’s going to get eaten alive out there. My kids are the best things that ever happened to me. I don’t want other men to miss out on the joy that is fatherhood because of how wrecked marriage is these days.… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

@ castle

Good to hear.

My take is this. Few guys are Alpha and even fewer are RP Alpha and even less are TRM type RP Alpha and even fewer of those have children.

Yeah marriage is presently messed up, but if anywhere a guy can get the tools to pull it off it should be here.

I just don’t live in a doomsday perspective ever. There’s much of that going on and it becomes reality to those looking for a crab bucket to step into.

M Simon
3 years ago

Blaximus February 7, 2018 at 5:28 am The President has a similar attitude for similar reasons. None the less. Without experience from “inside” comprehension is very difficult. Note: I do not recommend it. About 60% of men and 20% of women come out the other side. And damned few of those understand it well enough and are articulate enough to say anything useful about their experiences. None the less there are starting to be voices of sanity. This site is fairly good on the subject (most PTSD in America stems from child abuse). https://acestoohigh.com/ Keep in mind the obvious. People… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
3 years ago

for some sports these folks have an entire team with subs, in other sports, two teams lol:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2018/02/06/fourteenth-time-charm-mother-13-sons-expecting-another-child.html

what happens to a woman’s snatch after that many? is it like fucking a warm glass of water?

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

That motorcycle vid. Jesus. My heart’s racing just watching.

Mineter
Mineter
3 years ago

* slow clap * Oh, you got me good, Scribbler. Have you been drinking, or are you high or… projecting? Where have I lied? Point it out. What RP principle have I misrepresented? Point it out, correct me. Not for my benefit, but for those I have misled. I haven’t shared enough of my personal life here for you to know jack shit about it, let alone comment on it. I haven’t given unverifiable accounts of riding in on my big loud Hog toting a firearm with an antelope strapped to the handlebars arriving home to my wife, mistress, girlfriend,… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

M Simon

Thanks for the link. I saw that Nadine chick on fox just a day ago.

M Simon
3 years ago

Blaximus
February 7, 2018 at 7:34 am

Honored.

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

@Rob: What are you going to do when you’re 50 years old and the inflation rate on your funny money hits 90% – per day? @Eh Intellect: “Our whole present day existence is built upon those willing to take the monogamy with potential children plunge. 1500 years ago? Nice irrelevant history lesson.” You don’t need to read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. All you need to do is go out and have a look around. “I just don’t live in a doomsday perspective ever.” Works good for poker. Not so much for slots. Every man assesses his… Read more »

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

“I asked her about when she hit 30 if she’d rather keep traveling and her monthly spending allowance or have a kid or two and she said 100% keep traveling and shopping.”

Spot the Beta Tell.

quartermoa
quartermoa
3 years ago

@Blax

unnecessary drama makes my nuts ache

Made me chuckle. Permission to use. LOL

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

” . . . 252 died so far (6 in 2016)…”

How many people died just today – driving to a job they hate?

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

EI “You revel in inconsequence. The closer to death you are the more you’ll regret it.” You seem to find your life is about kids. I do not. More and more people do not. Nothing wrong either way. The older I’ve become, the more I am glad I don’t have kids. KFG – “What are you going to do when you’re 50 years old and the inflation rate on your funny money hits 90% – per day?” You do realize in the extremely unlikely event the US has 90% daily inflation (which has never happened in the history of the… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

Some do. That’s why the prisons have such a high captive alpha population.

If-I-Fell
If-I-Fell
3 years ago

Trump is to Blame for the #METOO Movement. Give feminists his head and this all goes away… Or so says a pseudo-psychologist and his Women’s Studies Professor wife on NPR News. https://www.npr.org/2018/02/07/583910310/why-metoo-happened-in-2017 5:45 Shankar Vedantam: Not long ago, I was talking to my wife, Ashwini Tambe, about all this. She’s an associate professor of Women’s Studies at the University of Maryland. And, she’s written about why the #metoo movement has gained such traction. What she told me about was the theory of horizontal violence. Ashwini Tambe*: Horizontal Violence – is when people turn on other people in their own lives… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

@ quartermoa

Lol, sure thing. I probably heard that at one time, the nuts ache thing, and it became a part of my vocab.

80% of all that I am and know comes from association with other males over lifetime. So I don’t technically ‘ own ‘ much.😁

M Simon
3 years ago

Rob
February 7, 2018 at 8:08 am

Risk/reward is accountant talk. What is the value of satisfaction?

Some advice I got from a magician. “Never haggle over the price of a black egg.”

It is going to cost you. How bad do you want it? How much will you regret passing it up?

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

M Simon

“Risk/reward is accountant talk. What is the value of satisfaction?”

I’ll ask you again. What can you get out of a marriage you can’t get out of a LTR?

Your comparable risk/reward is a LTR with the same chick outside of marriage.

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob

So you are saying alpha just randomly does things without analyzing it to decide on doing stuff?

That’s what you’re saying, putting your words in my mouth.

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob

What can you get out of a marriage you can’t get out of a LTR?

You sound like YaReally’s retarded little brother…

Answer: a Wife.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“That’s what you’re saying, putting your words in my mouth.”

Nope – here is what you said

“The answer is… get ready. Because he wishes to.”

So you either do it without thinking or you do some kind of risk/reward in your head, regardless of whatever you want to call it.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“Answer: a Wife.”

Dodging my question. What value do you get out of that?

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

This all sounds so familiar…..

Marko
3 years ago

@SJF “Assertiveness” is not abstract in the Manuel Smith “When I Say No I Feel Guilty” classic. It’s concrete as hell useful praxis. I use it all the time, and it works. Results in either “win-win” or “I win.” @SJF re power balance in relationships. Agree that the one most needy has the lesser power. If both persons in the relationship are financially and emotionally non-needy, and both decide that being together is win-win, that works. @Jonathan Cable “if you’re going to marry nothing beats a young, fresh, fertile woman.” Well stated — my 22 y.o young fresh fertile wife… Read more »

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

“Risk/reward is accountant talk.”

If you can only value things in terms of money.

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

“So you are saying . . .”

Generally speaking, this is an indication that what follows is some form of dishonesty.

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob Rob “Answer: a Wife.” Dodging my question. What value do you get out of that? errrm. No. You just don’t understand the answer. What value do you get out of V12 Mercedes? What value do you get out of barreling a 20 foot wave? Rob So you either do it without thinking or you do some kind of risk/reward in your head, regardless of whatever you want to call it. Or…. think now… he doesn’t do risk reward… But he does aspire to something and sets his will on amassing the skill to achieve it. Value is not price… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@ KFG “If you can only value things in terms of money.” Everything people do is a risk/reward – usually you do it without thinking. -You get in the car and drive to work, or entertainment, or whatever, knowing you could die in an automobile accident – you just decided the reward is greater than the risk. -You have sex with a chick knowing a condom is 100% safe because you decided the reward (sex) is greater than the small risk (pregnancy, std) -You work out to generate appeal to the opposite sex because you decide the reward (sex, compansionship,… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Sentient – still dodging my question. But I’ll answer yours What value do I get out of a V12 Mercedes? A lot less than some people, which is why I don’t own one. Why do people value it? 1) All automobiles will get you places quick, saving you time, of course, in a fairly safe manner 2) a V12 will get you wherever you want faster 3) that car will definitely help with game with ladies 4) the car is a lot of fun to drive compared to a honda civic I’m sure a person who owns one of them… Read more »

status confirmed
status confirmed
3 years ago

I, for one, appreciate the stories and the repetition.

I found this link while searching for a quote out of the book A Man in Full, by Tom Wolfe. It’s not what I was looking for, but the author illustrates a relevant point.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/2016/02/09/never-complain-never-explain/

dr zipper
dr zipper
3 years ago

a tricky topic: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/magazine/teenagers-learning-online-porn-literacy-sex-education.html while there are good points on demystifying porn/sexuality with education, the whole thing smells like the FI trying to control how one should interpret those elements of porn that *do* reflect humanity’s truer animal selves dread :: “But they say you gotta do what you gotta do.” And if you don’t, the first girl added, “then someone else will.” and this teen’s initial take seems spot on to me, but evidently needed *education* to learn otherwise :: “From porn, he learned that guys need to be buff and dominant in bed, doing things like flipping girls… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Scribblerg Great post. All you guys out there with your victim narratives about your marriage need to go back and reassess that history from a Red Pill lens. Take a hard look at where you mismanaged your marriage and your life. Did you let yourself put on 15 lbs and not expect your wife to mind? Were you so concerned with her approval that you essentially debased yourself? Did you have an abundance mindset? Did you even try to lead – do you even know how to lead? Take head Rob. To get to where you want to go (which… Read more »

8Ball
3 years ago

Female facial attractiveness and age. See her bloom about 3:00 and start going dull at 4:30. Matches up very nicely with the RV graph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPxdhnT4Ec8

comment image

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

@Rob – Who has sex with condoms?

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

Rob: “1) People won’t be able to eat and the amount of deaths in the world will be staggering 2) Assets that produce real things will still hold up value better than the underlying currency”

“a V12 will get you wherever you want faster”

@Sentient: “Take head Rob. To get to where you want to go (which is why you came here) you need to start tearing things down.”

He might want to start by understanding the parameters.

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob What value do I get out of a V12 Mercedes? A lot less than some people, which is why I don’t own one. Ya kinda sorta almost got it here. But then stuck your head back up your ass… So I’ll ask again, what do you get out of a marriage that you don’t get in a LTR? Think. I said, a Wife (capital W). I’ll expand. A possession. You do realize marriage is a social construct with no intrinsic value, right? That might have worked in your undergrad Women’s Studies class. It falls short here. Ahistorical to start.… Read more »

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

@Sentient: “Ahistorical to start.”

I’m not participating much on topic, because I’ve made this movie before. One problem is that we no longer have a colloquial language for the subject in this age where marriage is dead and gutted and civil union is walking around wearing its skin and demanding its respect.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

“You seem to find your life is about kids.”

Kids = consequence.

What’s your lasting consequence?

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

@Mineter – I’m sorry, have I misdirected my fire? You are Mark Minter, correct? The guy who actually abandoned his wife and kids, was actually living in a basement preaching Red Pill and anti-marriage, who then hooked up with the first piece of ass under 40 that smiled at you, yes? http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-minter-is-a-phony Same guy who’s ex couldn’t take it and exposed you for the pothead moocher you actually are? A few years back? If not, I apologize. If so, shut the fuck up. You have no commentary or POV worth listening to. Until you can actually run your own life… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

kfg

we no longer have a colloquial language for the subject in this age where marriage is dead and gutted and civil union is walking around wearing its skin and demanding its respect.

excellent point as per usual…

I hope Rob agrees to just move past his anger and get to the real business of Rob.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Sentient – Still avoiding my question. I’ll ask one more time and then I’m going to just ignore you. A wife is a socially constructed word that in and of itself has no value. What valuable thing do YOU personally get out of having a “wife” that you can’t keep in a 50 year LTR outside of “marriage.” I’m not asking for me personally. I’m asking about YOU. What do YOU get out of this “wife” that you can’t get with that exact same special gal in a LTR in alpha mode the whole time? What you are saying is… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
3 years ago

sent…. I had a question or two about that:

https://therationalmale.com/2018/02/02/the-marriage-game/comment-page-5/#comment-238721

quartermoa
quartermoa
3 years ago

@Blax

Yes, grew up in rural Midwest and learning by associating with other males was baked in the cake so to speak. Interesting that a lot of the vocab and sayings I picked up in my youth seem to be local in nature. Live on the east coast now. Sometimes when I throw out a vocab/saying learned from my youth, doesn’t grok. Also notice some are universal and a male on the other side of the world would understand. Would put “unnecessary drama makes my nuts ache” in the later category.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“@Rob – Who has sex with condoms?”

I was just giving examples of risk/rewards most people do without thinking about them. I could literally go on all day about things people do with risks/rewards that have nothing to do with money.

Drugs, alcohol, swimming, flying an airplane, dating, hiking in the mountains, etc. Your mind says the reward (high, exercise, quicker travel, sex/compansionship, fun, etc) is greater than the risk (death/illness, drowning, plane crash, waste time/unwanted kid/get hurt hiking/etc).

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
3 years ago

@Rob – welcome to TRM. Speaking entirely sincerely I think your viewpoint is valuable and needs to be aired here – it can too often end up in all of us regulars agreeing with each other in concert. I don’t necessarily agree with all your points but I see where you’re coming from and the viewpoints you bring to the table. As someone else mentioned (Blax I think), the value of marriage was comprehensively beaten to death in the comments between the regular commenters in a series of threads from about Sep 2016 to early De 2016. The commenters who… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob

oh well… I defer to the wise Ron White….

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

@KFG – This – FUCKING THIS. “I’m not participating much on topic, because I’ve made this movie before. One problem is that we no longer have a colloquial language for the subject in this age where marriage is dead and gutted and civil union is walking around wearing its skin and demanding its respect.” Just remember that one can create any frame he wants with a woman. Women live in a fantasyworld for the most part to begin with. They love and thrive on emotional drama so much that if you understand them, you can shape it. While the social… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Doc Z

what happens to a woman’s snatch after that many? is it like fucking a warm glass of water?

lol… I have no idea! My wife has had 5 kids, all natural deliveries. About as tight as she was in the beginning as far as I can tell. No micrometer in use. She is a genetic freak so maybe not the norm. I will say, referring to the Wall of Pussy image, her snatch was perfect in all ways…

Vetting… it’s a thing yo!

Chump No More
Chump No More
3 years ago

@Sentient “All you guys out there with your victim narratives about your marriage need to go back and reassess that history from a Red Pill lens. Take a hard look at where you mismanaged your marriage and your life. Did you let yourself put on 15 lbs and not expect your wife to mind? Were you so concerned with her approval that you essentially debased yourself? Did you have an abundance mindset? Did you even try to lead – do you even know how to lead?” Excellent. Rob is stuck in purple-pill purgatory because it allows him to acknowledge the… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@Sentient – Wife is good because it’s a Wife! Keep running with that circular logic buddy. If you ever want to answer my question for real, please do. @ Culum Struan – Thanks – I’ll track down that thread and try to read it this weekend. I’ve read the first book and probably the entire comments on 30-40 threads over the last month, mostly from the first few years, along with a couple recent ones. I would definitely agree that Blax speaks in good faith. Seen hints with EI on it. Sentient – not so much. I largely know what… Read more »

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

“The commenters who were taking your side in the argument were called YaReally and Scray and they no longer post here . . .”

Actually, although YaReally and Scray might not realize it, I was mostly on that side as well. In fact it was my comments along the same lines that Rob is making that sparked the whole thing. The difference was that I didn’t let it make me stupid.

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Culum

they don’t have a monopoly on truth or being right

LOl… working on it though!!! mwhaahhahahha

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

@Rob – Well if you are going to be a cunt about it, every word and concept we have is socially constructed. One refers to such an argument as “a distinction without difference”. In other words, a truly idiotic argument. What’s obviously flawed about your ideas is that you think you make rational choices. Welcome to the Red Pill world – where you learn that much fo what you want comes from the back of your brain too. That it may not make much “sense” if you analyze it too much. Like I don’t do an ROI on pussy, I… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@scribblerg I’m being the cunt? LMFAO. I’ve been ad hominem attacked by Sentient in every single post. EI in most of his first few posts and a couple other posters as well. I’ve largely avoided any ad hominem attacks and only pointed out a few logical fallacies. “I don’t need to justify or explain wanting a “wife” if I want one. I just need to figure out how to make that happen and work. You see the difference? ” The fact that no one can actually answer my question besides just saying I want it largely answers my question. If… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
3 years ago

scribbs is hot and cold, usually within the same comment! lol

but this one is all white hot (February 7, 2018 at 9:43 am):

“I don’t need to justify or explain wanting a “[insert anything here]” if I want one. I just need to figure out how to make that happen and work. You see the difference? You are caught up in silly intellectual analyses that are more appropriate for people who believe that we can “think” our way to happiness.”

the bulb that just lit up in my head reveals even more, thx scribbs/sent/blax/cs/ei/et al

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

A rational person will figure out what they want – and there are always reasons even if you wont say them or do them at a subconscious level (eg: fear this high value woman will leave if I don’t marry her) – and THEN figure out how to do it. Saying alpha men just want without any thought behind it is stupid. Humans are not born wanting a wife. Therefore, something made you WANT a wife. In the cave man sense of what you are saying, you are right. An alpha goes and takes/does what he wants. But humans are… Read more »

kfg
kfg
3 years ago

“I don’t need to justify or explain wanting a “[insert anything here]” if I want one. I just need to figure out how to make that happen and work.”

That’s what Sentient was aiming at with the TT video.

Now [insert Black Widows mating video here].

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

“I hope Rob agrees to just move past his anger and get to the real business of Rob.” “Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” – George Bernard Shaw “What valuable thing do YOU personally get out of having a “wife” that you can’t keep in a 50 year LTR outside of “marriage.” I’m not asking for me personally. I’m asking about YOU. What do YOU get out of this “wife” that you can’t get with that exact same special gal in a LTR in alpha mode the whole time?” That is… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Sigh, so many straw man arguments against me it’s hilarious. For the 10th time – **I am not arguing that my marriage couldn’t be improved (or destroyed)** It’s irrelevant to my original post. You simply are moving the goalposts. I’ve asking why marriage vs LTR and you just gave me the first answer btw – so congrats! You are arguing that the woman is less likely to stay with you without marriage. If she really has oneitist and you stay Alpha she will in the current environment. The social stigma of it today vs 30 or even 15 years ago… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob Now you’re just showing your ass… 30 years ago, a high value woman wouldn’t likely move in with you and stay with you even if you were alpha because of societal norms. 30 years ago? 1988… GTFO. If you were around fucking girls in the 80’s you know this is complete bs… there were no societal repercussions in cohabitation… You need to go much further back. Get rid of the word wife and use the term “Legal Union” and answer my same question if it makes it easier. Your demonstration of “lack of understanding” is complete. But humans are… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
3 years ago

“That’s what Sentient was aiming at….” this touches on the earlier comment that so much on this site is repetitious and a bit echo-chambery; sometimes, 5 different dudes here will actually be saying the same fucking thing but arguing about how their articulation is superior but while they’re arguing, a lurker will find truth and understanding by how just one of the articulations really struck something deep and he can move towards bettering himself; this is the whole point of this site I’ve sometimes thought of this site as a sort of buffet where one can peruse many options as… Read more »

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

A rational person will figure out what they want – and there are always reasons even if you wont say them or do them at a subconscious level (eg: fear this high value woman will leave if I don’t marry her) – and THEN figure out how to do it. But humans are a bit smarter than the cave man these days – especially with life altering decisions – and do quite a bit of thinking about it at the conscious and subconscious level. Rob, guess what: You are Intelligent. You should be careful with that super power of yours.… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Rob,

You’re not getting it as you’re 1. not Alpha and 2. consider your marriage a legal union.

Women know this, your wife knows this.

Flip the switch or you’re toast.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Sigh – 30 years ago people co-habitating were not high value women worth marrying (generally speaking). In the 80s, the median age a woman got married was 22 years old. Today its over 27. Additionally, the % of women who don’t get married at all has also skyrocketed in that time. Pretending the marriage game hasn’t changed in the last 30 years is just plain ignorance.

Sentient – I really do wish you the best, bud.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Rob,

Nice isn’t good faith. Stop looking for nice, Mr. Nice Guy.

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Blue Pill Rob

30 years ago people co-habitating were not high value women worth marrying (generally speaking).

Just skanks and hoes… amirite? Not ‘Quality Women”

https://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/

rugby11
rugby11
3 years ago
Rob
Rob
3 years ago

I’ve spent enough time on this thread already so I’ll just leave it at this and take off.

Your personal advice for my marriage is spot on, but you are doing young men in their early to late 20s a true disservice if they do not want or have doubts about kids by encouraging marriage. For every person you truly convert to a 100% red pill alpha that visits this site that ends up working for them, there will be 20 that stay blue or purple that probably have their lives turned upside down.

Wish everyone the best,

-R

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

“You are arguing that the woman is less likely to stay with you without marriage.” That’s what I said but what I meant is a woman worth staying with–A Valuable Woman (defined by me)– is less likely to because, guess what? She has coin in the real of the Marriage Marketplace and believe-it-or-not, in the Sexual Marketplace. And I prefer my women to have more value than others, including Value after Fucking. And I prefer that when I possess valuable assets that I don’t squander them. Value can be arbitrary or capricious but I’m very judgmental and I know it… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

” you are doing young men in their early to late 20s a true disservice if they do not want or have doubts about kids by encouraging marriage. ”

— Do as I Say Not as I Do Married Rob, 2018

fleezer
fleezer
3 years ago

mba comes from scarcity mindset. poor schlub gets some paper and wants to conserve. this reinfoces scarcity mindset (if I can just get a bit better return on my investments then I’ll be set), which transitions into downward attractiveness contraction spiral (gotta make it last until my statistically predicted death date) why make her a wife in 2018? structure. for the extended family and future. for the accumulated capital to pass to future generations as unpilfered as possible mba don’t want kids. mba don’t care what his family calls his piece. mba don’t think generationally because he’s got no past… Read more »

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

Your personal advice for my marriage is spot on, but you are doing young men in their early to late 20s a true disservice if they do not want or have doubts about kids by encouraging marriage. For every person you truly convert to a 100% red pill alpha that visits this site that ends up working for them, there will be 20 that stay blue or purple that probably have their lives turned upside down. I see what you did there: Your best Cathy Newman impression. So what you are saying is that you recommend that all young men… Read more »

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