The Marriage Game

As a few of my readers know my daughter is presently a sophomore at college. Every time she reaches a new milestone in her life I have a tendency to mentally go back in time in my own life and consider how utterly different her experiences are in comparison to my own. At 19 the thought of being as organized and honestly well off as she is in life now would never have occurred to me. For a very brief moment in my life back then I’d kept a journal of what it was I was doing and thinking at the time. My first ‘real’ girlfriend had given me this blank journal (she was one of those girls who wrote diaries) to write my thoughts in and being the Beta I was then most of it was filled with my Blue Pill frustration with girls. She’d gifted me this journal, I found out later, as an effort to absolve her of all the guilt she knew was coming her way for having cheated on me and deciding that, at 18 herself, she wanted to move on into her Party Years without the baggage of a dutiful Beta who thought he was going to marry her.

This was 1988 and the then 19 year old Rollo Tomassi was very much a typical Blue Pill Beta. I sometimes read back through the dozen or so pages I actually took the time to write back then to remind myself how I thought back then. I was very much and idealistic Beta back then, but I had several other friends who subscribed to the same Blue Pill delusions; and now with hindsight I realize this phase in a Beta’s life is one that was around long before and long after I went through it. This was the ‘Break Phase’ I outline in Preventive Medicine.

As it turned out, the girl who I predictably developed ONEitis for, the first girl to spread her legs for me (‘enthusiastically’), the girl I thought had to be “quality” if she appreciated a guy like me, was every bit the ‘play the field’ skank I would’ve never called her because it was what a “typical male” would say about her. At one point I had thought I’d want to marry her. My Blue Pill conditioning had taught me it would be the right, “supportive” thing to do; marry her and support her ambitions and goals (it’s what good Blue Pill boys ought to do) at the sacrifice of my own. And as directionless as I was then, that was an easy decision to make.

My daughter recently informed me that her boyfriend’s best friend just proposed to his girlfriend at 19. Both this guy and his girlfriend are also sophomores at the same school and this is what triggered the reminiscing for me. At 49, and having lived the life I have and the experiences I use on this blog today, I’m very glad my first girlfriend dumped me. That’s hard to say sometimes, particularly when I think back on the pit of misery years I spent with the BPD girlfriend I’d gotten involved with later, but I’m thankful for those bad experiences as much as the good ones. So, it’s really difficult for me to tell my daughter’s friend “oh, congratulations”.

It’s very difficult for me to endorse anyone getting married at so early an age these days or when I was 19. Modern marriage is a menagerie of horrors for today’s men. People say, “Rollo you’re married, how come you’re so hard on marriage?” It’s either that or they presume my marriage is a shit show and I’m venting like a petulant boy. When I’m critical of marriage it’s in spite of my own (very happy for 21 years) marriage. But I cannot condone it for men today – not in its present state. Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I’ve written in many prior posts that I don’t necessarily agree with that assessment, but I do understand it. The risks today far outweigh the rewards, but still there are men who, even with Red Pill awareness, will still take it on.

There’s a running debate I have going on with Hunter Drew (The Family Alpha) and Tanner Guzy (Masculine Style) about how marriage is a lifestyle decision, and depending on how informed a man is about the risks he assumes and when he decides to get married, this decision is literally a question of life or death for that guy. Both these guys married early in life, both have kids, and both will have far different experiences than myself in this respect. Both of them and myself have assumed the risks and sacrifices this entails. I’m fully aware that my wife can detonate the marriage at any time. I’m sure both Hunter and Tanner are well aware that their wives also have the right to have them removed from their home and take their children away from them for any reason. But we’re all married, and as I wrote in Surrender, we have all willingly put ourselves in the most vulnerable position a man can be in; we’ve bet our lives, livelihoods and the future health and happiness of our kids and families on what today is the ultimate suckers bet for a man. And what’s worse, we cannot ever expect women or our wives to ever relate with just how dangerous a position we willingly put ourselves in.

So I’m thinking about all of this after my daughter tells me about this 19 year old kid proposing to his girlfriend. Statistically his marriage will end before he’s 28. I would also bet that, like myself at 19, he’s making a decision that will affect him and his fiancé’s based on Blue Pill idealism – an idealism that’s informed by the Feminine Imperative and delusions of egalitarian equalism. Naturally I can’t possibly think this is a good idea. If I were this boy’s father I’d strongly advise against it, but there are others in the manosphere who would encourage this.

“Grown” Men

There’s an old saying that goes “marriage is our last, best chance for growing up”. I also disagree with this from the perspective of today’s version of marriage, but I understand how homey platitudes like this are appealing to a social order of men who it seems don’t want to grow up. It’s becoming a new way of AMOGing (particularly in religious circles); if you’ve got your shit together enough to see the wisdom in being married and starting a family you’re a “better man” than the ‘boys’ who they believe want to extend their adolescence. It’s really nothing new.

According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.

This is one half of strategic pluralism theory for men. Men who invest themselves in the long term aspect will always look for ways to validate their inability or unwillingness to pursue multiple partners. It’s easy to think that these men make their necessity a virtue, and that may or may not be the case, but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. The Blue Pill has always subjugated men to be predisposed to the one-mate investment strategy while simultaneously encouraging women to adopt a multiple mate strategy. That may seem counterintuitive, but when we look at the Sheryl Sandberg plan for Hypergamy we can see that what they believe is prudence is having a large selection of potential husbands from which to choose.

In Trad-Con manosphere thinking it seems like conventional wisdom to encourage men and women to marry younger. Look at where we’re at today; women forestall marriage – ostensibly to further a career, but really to falsely extend their Hypergamous decision making years – until their Epiphany Phase (29-31) or even beyond by freezing their eggs. Men take much more time to mature into their peak SMV potential, but what’s the common complaint? These men aren’t “being men” by preparing themselves for a life of family and marriage. They aren’t catering their lives’ decisions to fulfill women’s sexual strategy, and really what incentive do they have to when women are following the Sandbergian path of Hypergamy? Men and women marry later and later – if at all. Women unmarried by the time they’re 34-35 are likely to never marry in their lives.

Marrying Early

So it seems like wisdom to tell this kid, “good on you”, in spite of all the odds staked against him and despite the Blue Pill idealistic delusions that are prompting him to propose. Trad-Cons love the idea of a return to something resembling “traditional values” in order to save western culture from itself, but it’s important to remember that those old books values are really just leverage in a new books world.

Marrying early, as I said, is usually the result of Blue Pill naiveté. Both young men and women are still ignorant of who they are or who they have a potential to become. I see a lot of early-marrieds originating in religious circles because this is their only means to “legitimate” sex, but there are the guys who see marrying early a better way to ensure ‘permanent’ sex for themselves. In some respects it’s almost a blessing that women at this age are so anti-marriage – most young men on the investment side of strategic pluralism are far too willing to kill their own dreams to accommodate their investment.

Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally, but it doesn’t remove the evolved influence. By the time that 20 year old mother and wife is 30, she’s had ten years to develop the resentment of her choice by living vicariously through her single girlfriends’ experiences. The context may change, but Hypergamy doesn’t.

Early marriage limits a man’s potential. Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Aristotle said, “The Ideal age for marriage in men is 35. The Ideal age for marriage in women is 18”, not unlike my sexual market value graph, but the reason for this is because it takes much longer for a man to establish himself as a man. The simple truth is that part of the sacrifice of being married means a man will not be able to capitalize on opportunities he would have were he single. Some opportunities may never even be made available to him because of him being married. This isn’t something most early-marrying men consider.

Men who marry early and stick it out through their peak SMV years often feel the mid-life crisis (epiphany) years much more acutely. This is kind of the man’s making up for missing out resentment a wife may feel as she becomes more and more aware that she can’t compete in the SMP for a better Hypergamous prospect. I don’t believe men have a “crisis” per se around this time, but what they do experience is a sense of introspection that’s colored by their now better capacity to understand the game they’ve been a part of with regards to women. When a man’s married well this is less of an issue, but there is a definite remorse over the “life he could’ve lived” if only he’d known better. This is an assessment of the sacrifices he’s made, how they paid off (if at all) and a sort of survey of his life up to that point.

The biggest ‘con’ to early marriage is that it’s always going to be a learn as you go prospect while trying to establish a world that a his wife of the future will want to defer herself to. This worked far better in a culture and time when women would be compelled to defer to a man’s mastery due to religion, social norms and respect. We do not live in those day anymore and women have actionable ‘outs’ of any commitment that doesn’t suit them, while men have more responsibilities to qualify themselves to suit women.

Advantages?

Early marriage has a few advantages, but all of these depend on the personal nature of the woman a man marries. That sounds kind of obvious, but if you go into a marriage with a solid Frame and a woman who expects to defer to your dominance, I think young marrieds might have a better shot at long term success. If a woman is a virgin, yes, this can be a real source of attachment for her if her husband imprints on her as solidly dominant Alpha. I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate. There is far too significant and imprinting with virgin women and sex with an Alpha man, or even a guy who seemed Alpha. This is the recipe for an Alpha Widow, but in a marriage it can make for a strong bond.

As has been mentioned countless times, the most stable and healthy way to raise children is in a committed marriage. This might be the only advantage marriage may have for a man today. In an early marriage I would think that a woman being at her sexual market value peak, combined with following her true biological clock (her prime fertility window 22-26) the odds of having happy healthy children are improved. I have a cousin who spent more than half his life building himself into a millionaire architect, but at my age (49) his children are 5 and 7. I can’t imagine living this life now. I suppose money might make it easier, but evolutionarily speaking he and I should effectively be grandfathers by now. I married at 28 and there are advantages and disadvantages to this as well, but I cannot imagine having young children at my age.

Finally, for the “well, duh” moment, it goes without saying that a young wife/mother should necessarily be playing on your team. The only possible successful prospect for a younger marriage to have any stability is if that woman understands what it is she’s sacrificing. Women likewise sacrifice their own personal potentials and later this becomes their source of resentment. The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage.

In the Trad-Con sphere today there is a constant droning for personal responsibility on the part of men. There is little to none about the responsibilities of women. We’re constantly told that women are only the way they are because men have allowed it. I’ve written before that this is a cop out and an absolving of women’s complicity that mirrors what the Feminine Imperative has put forth. Women are taught not to do anything “for a man” and anything a woman does that might be expressly for a man is is conflated with subservience. Consequently we get generations of women who only indulge their natural solipsism and expect men’s sacrifices as part of the utilities. This is one of the primary reasons all marriages fail; there is no complementarity. Marriage becomes nothing but a naked exchange of resources on the part of the man and anything a woman might do ‘for’ him is frowned upon. And don’t think this is just limited to those blue haired feminists, you can find it at your church.

Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Blax – I’m not going anywhere. I could care less what those two think or really anyone on this board or in general. If I hear something worthwhile, I’ll take it in. If not, I’ll move on. And yeah, my close friends I’ve known for a long time we talk shit to each other all the time and tell each other exactly what we think without sugar coating it – especially after a few bourbons. But a random dude or someone I’m not that close with that I don’t know their thoughts/motivations/etc? It’s just a good way to kill a… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

The only thing I got out of their post is they still are trying to justify their own marriage.

If that’s all you got, I wouldn’t hold out much hope for that CFO slot…

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Killing me with kindness. Very nice. You have a grand day too.

Rob, I hope you look to rehabilitate your marriage…but of course that’s your perrogative.

Stick around.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Oops wait, back up.

“The only thing I got out of their post is they still are trying to justify their own marriage.”

Back to stupid.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Rob

You know your out of hand dismissals is just a good way to kill a relationship or a work career before it develops.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“If that’s all you got, I wouldn’t hold out much hope for that CFO slot…”

Hah! Now *that* is one thing I would be happy to bet good money on. But hey, even if you are right and I only make it to SVP (or even I don’t get promoted again), I’ll still be living a damn good life and be able to retire in the early to mid 40s if I want.

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
3 years ago

I don’t think you should apologise in an LTR even if you are wrong I’d like to hear more on this… As a off-again on-again technical manager in hitech I always admits fault in my designs or decisions if they are truly wrong. nothing wrong with that and it builds trust in a work environment. In my current relationship, I’ve apologized a few times when I’ve clearly crossed *deep* into asshole territory without appearing butthurt, but this seems to give my gf an excuse to go ‘salty’ for a while. Major pain. I attribute this to her young age and… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
3 years ago

“I wouldn’t hold out much hope for that CFO slot…”

I think he’s got a good shot…

no backbone means ceo and board can make him certify false financial statements

easily bought with a case of pappy or whatever the snifter nerds are on about at the moment

I’ve seen how that crowd ages. one minute it’s old cheval blanc at fancy restaurants, and the next… not

one peek at mba’s wine cellar inventory and I can tell his future

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Ah, fleezer joins the fray with another ad hominem attack! I am jack’s complete lack of surprise. Good think Rollo’s writing is a lot better than a some of the commentators here.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Appeals to authority again. Sycophant.

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

I was just as happy broke as I am now. Always be mindful that if your name isn’t on the building somewhere, your still a worker bee, even if you’re CFO. Just a highly compensated worker bee. My job could fire my ass in the next hour. All that means to me is that I don’t have a 90 minute commute anymore, and I could paint and draw more. Lol. I agree that if possible, stack cash so you don’t have to work. If I wake up any morning and dread going to work, that’s the day I quit .… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

“I don’t think you should apologise in an LTR even if you are wrong”

@ D E

There’s really no point saying sorry. It doesn’t help the LTR and opens a door to more baloney.

Now what can be said is…..

Mistakes were made.

That didn’t turn out as expected.

Hm. I didn’t predict that.

I’m going to Moe’s

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Nice EI – Ad-hominem again with a side of straw-man that time. Is that seriously the only thing you three have in your arsenal? Why on earth do you think you actually know what you are talking about lol.

The only people I know whom as soon as the first meet someone start off with the kind of insults and ad-hominem’s like you have are either 1) 100% certifiable jackasses 2) projecting or 3) both

The fact that what I said really, really seems to bother you all is hilarious, though. Good way to kill time on this layover.

Oscar C.
3 years ago

@EhIntellect Hello back. The shrink did not say much, he stroke me as stand-offish (maybe that’s how it has to be). He asked me about my parents, whether they had had mental problems, which they never did. I basically told him that I resented my lack of experience with girls, and that fact compounded the anxiety of approaching 30 and not having much work experience. Basically failing at life. What motivated me to finally go was the fact that I spent a week having a vague yet persistent headache and a lot of trouble concentrating. I temporarily quit reading manosphere… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Good. I was worried and glad you’re taking yourself seriously.

You have something to offer.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

Rob,

Ow about this, no snark…

If you’d repair/improve your marriage, how would you?

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Blaximus – I hear you. I readily admit that I work for the man. In fact, part of my job is to oversee all of our IR efforts so I have to speak with the “bosses” (largely – very big investment firms) and the BoD regularly. Always look to add a lot more value than you cost in any job (and just as important build good relationships at work – lateral, downward and upward across functions and externally as well if appropriate to your role – makes it a lot easier to introduce new ideas, products, etc and less likely… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“If you’d repair/improve your marriage, how would you?” Finally – a real question or thought! So I’ll give a full answer. I’d re-introduce dominance over her (very excessive) spending, drop the (remaining) 10-15 lbs around my waist and lift (I am the same weight when I got married but I travel a lot for work, which has been my excuse to not get into shape – started getting serious about that 45 days ago, also went on keto diet), ignore the advice of my parents and the church and at least feign interest in other women in subtle ways around… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

@ Rob

Good outlook. Hold on to it as things can get muddled in the heat of the moment(s).

I’ve been in my job 22 years this spring. I don’t intentionally give more value, but it often just ends up that way. I’m just trying to do my job and get out of the building as soon as possible, and dodge any Hong Kong/ Singapore / London / Dubai / Mexico excursions where all you get to see are airports, work and hotel rooms.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

“Beyond that, more sex, which I think the above would take care of largely.”

Re: the bedroom and wife

Where are you now and where do you want to be?

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

“And yeah, my close friends I’ve known for a long time we talk shit to each other all the time and tell each other exactly what we think without sugar coating it – especially after a few bourbons. But a random dude or someone I’m not that close with that I don’t know their thoughts/motivations/etc? “ Irony. Sentient, Blax, EhIntellect and myself are not random dudes commenting on a forum. Some have absorbed most all of Rollo’s Red Pill Brand of Awareness. And they put it to great use or used it to teach others Red Pill and Game. Rob… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

SJF – you all are really bad at forming logical arguments and following logically. I made a post on my POV for a young man that could be contemplating marriage based on the original article. I wasn’t trying to shit test you, EI, or anyone. You just didn’t like what I said. You can self-congratulate yourself if you think you “won” here. I’ll be happy to mail you a blue ribbon (or a cookie) if it’ll make you happy.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“Where are you now and where do you want to be?”

I already posted the first earlier (2-4x per month, although the last month has gone up a lot) and probably 2x, maybe 3x, per week would be my ideal goal assuming I’m not traveling all week.

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

@Disgruntled Earthling I’d say avoid apologies to women; they interface with her feelings, lead to longer discussions and all that is potential quicksand. (Apologizing to a man is probably a different dynamic). The only thing you can truly control is your own mindset and your own actions, so ask yourself why you said or did something that YOU realize was gratuitously stupid or hurtful. Decide how you can change this behavior from then on. (I’m not talking about things you did that she doesn’t like, I mean things you did that YOU regret). I used to say (and even do)… Read more »

Oscar C.
3 years ago

@Rob

Personally I never cared a lot about money nor wanted to spend much, but you were spot on a while ago when you were talking about the importance of being financially saavy. I can see it now.

I don’t know how much things cost over there in America, but here in Spain people the median salary is less than $22300. Making $ 3000 a month is considered affluence. Whenever I hear this talk of six figures it makes me feel like a Third World person lol. Considering how much my father works he would be a millionaire there.

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

@rob
The “insane spending” and “trying to hide it” are loud warning sirens blaring (and not like the Hawaii missile scare or today’s fake tsunami alert in NY!). Does she work at all?

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@ O.B.I.T. Not since about 5 years ago, although I told her she had to have a job by the end of April even if it was no income at a non-profit. Her spending wasn’t any better or worse whether she was working or not. All the females in her entire family do it and based on the clothes women seem to wear into corporate offices these days most women seem to be doing it. I’m still able to save about $150k-$175k/yr at this point or we’d have split over her spending a while ago. The BP in me has… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Oscar – Compound interest (/earnings) is the greatest thing ever. In the US, the median household income putting away even just 6% with 50% 401k match from their company will retire a millionaire or multi-millionaire if they start at 25 and go to 65 – to keep it simple for the non-savvy just dump savings into a Vanguard S&P 500 index fund and put it on auto-pilot.

I didn’t realize Spain’s median individual income was nearly half that of the US. Interesting.

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

@Rob
It’s not just the financial drain I’m looking at but other danger signals
1) Entitled attitude
2) Too much time on her hands
3) No outside interests except shopping and her looks
Telling her to go out and get involved in something might help, but it’s more troubling that she isn’t drawn to something on her own initiative. Doesn’t have to be a “career,” but something. (I think you said children are NOT in the plans as of now).

quartermoa
quartermoa
3 years ago

@Rob I already posted the first earlier (2-4x per month, although the last month has gone up a lot) and probably 2x, maybe 3x, per week would be my ideal goal assuming I’m not traveling all week. I’ve kept her spending flat even as my income has gone up $100k over the last two years which I’ve put entirely towards retirement and other savings but she still spends an insane amount of money on clothes, handbags, makeup etc that pisses me off and tries to hide it., As someone who is went through divorce, you should be really concerned with… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob she still spends an insane amount of money on clothes, handbags, makeup etc that pisses me off and tries to hide it. Lack of respect = you are beta to her. As a beta, you can’t seriously be giving advice to young guys about marriage. Not without recanting. So about this here: Finally – a real question or thought! Let me reintroduce you to these questions, previously asked… a) Why did you get married? especially since you didn’t or don’t want kids? b) what was your experience with women prior to this? c) how did you vet your wife?… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

@palmasailor $60k / year is median household income in the US. Starting at 25 and ending at 65, Putting in 6% plus company match is 9% of $60k, or $5.4k/year of savings. Assuming 7%/yr gain + div reinvestments (well below the LT S&P 500 average of around ~10% with dividends) Assuming 0 increase in salary ever under those assumptions, you’d have $1.2 million. Assuming 3% increase in salary annually, you’d have saved $1.8 million. Assuming a 5% increase in salary annually with the occasional promotion, you’d have $2.4 million That doesn’t even count any equity gained by paying of your… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

DisgruntledEarthling

Cosign the no apology… make it very very rare. very rare. My wife now just says something like “well you won’t apologize anyway”….

99% of things she wants apologies for are her feelz were hurt in some way, or it’s just a shit test…

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

“That doesn’t even count any equity gained by paying of your home and rising home prices or things like that or savings outside of 401k.”

Or taxes apparently…

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

Starting with $10000 and adding $10000 yearly for 40 years — at let’s say 6 percent annual market rise — equals $1.7 million. Of course life is not always this orderly

quartermoa
quartermoa
3 years ago

@Rob I already posted the first earlier (2-4x per month, although the last month has gone up a lot) and probably 2x, maybe 3x, per week would be my ideal goal assuming I’m not traveling all week. I’ve kept her spending flat even as my income has gone up $100k over the last two years which I’ve put entirely towards retirement and other savings but she still spends an insane amount of money on clothes, handbags, makeup etc that pisses me off and tries to hide it., As someone who is went through divorce, you should be really concerned with… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Fleezer nailed it with this

I’ve seen how that crowd ages. one minute it’s old cheval blanc at fancy restaurants, and the next… not

one peek at mba’s wine cellar inventory and I can tell his future

There is retiring… and there is living after you stop working…

The Solitary Silver FoX
The Solitary Silver FoX
3 years ago

@ Blax

“You don’t fail, you just haven’t gotten the results just yet. Internalizing this makes frustration and self doubt practically vanish…”

Thanks, man. Absolute gold!

M Simon
3 years ago

EhIntellect
February 6, 2018 at 10:12 am

Most women’s relationship with their feelings is to respond automatically.

If you make them pay attention (only worthwhile in a LTR) they change. After a sufficient period of training.

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

@ Rob I’m not pissed at you. I’m pissed at your limited iterations of Red Pill and your self limiting mindset. It’s not all about you for us.. It’s about the red pill process.It should be all about You for the Sake of bettering Your lot. And a lot of that lot is intersexual agency. (other wise known as getting laid like you want to). My last comment was in order to point out a very common fault of males in male only spaces. You are not understanding the tribal dynamics of you coming here and asserting that faults in… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

Sentient – “As a beta, you can’t seriously be giving advice to young guys about marriage. Not without recanting.” I’m probably 20% beta, 80% alpha in my life, in general. But I’ll give you that I’m beta on that, which is why I answered EI as what I wanted to change. But ~90% of men are betas and a huge swaths of the other ~10% are in prison. Will you answer me why you think people should get married if they don’t want kids? What can they get out of a marriage that they can’t get in a non-married LTR… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

Sentient
February 6, 2018 at 1:51 pm

“Never apologize.” My first GF told me that back in ’62.

I was VERY lucky.

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

@palma
Apologies
You said it better than me, apologies are a sign of weakness and that’s asking for trouble.
One recent time I quickly fixed something my LTR was struggling with. I probably was a little too smug about this and the LTR said, “You don’t know everything, you know.”
Years ago I would have replied, “I’m just trying to help.” In other words, apologize.
Instead I said, “I do indeed know everything. I am all-knowing and all-seeing.”
End of discussion. Thank you TRM

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“Do you want to give me the compound interest rate and your projected inflation rate just so I get it right?” I used 7% real returns to adjust for 2-3% inflation as the S&P has averaged around 10% with dividends. There are lots of ways to skin the cat on modeling and people can argue about what the underlying assumptions are a point or two, but my main point was it’s not that hard for the average household to become fairly independent in retirement just by saving around 4.5% of their income (6% pre tax = ~4.5% post tax on… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

@palma
I was counting an employer match to his own contribution to get to $10000. It’s all quick and dirty but the point is that starting saving while you are young does have a nice payoff. Inflation of course will eat at that, and also means there are scenarios where debt is a useful strategy.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

SJF – I’m really not angry bro. You can not be happy and make a case for something and not be angry. The rational thing today with today’s system which is 100% designed to help the women in the marriage and if the marriage splits is to avoid marriage unless you want kids unless you have real religious reasons to do so (which I did 15 years ago, I do not at all anymore). You think because I don’t support marriage that I’m angry. I am angry about the court system for divorce rape against men. But I’m not angry… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

@ Rob

The deflection to monetary buffer when your split is paper work away is baffling.

Weight loss is easy. Reduce your intake to 1200 call day. You’ll be at your goal fast enough. The exercise requirement is a buffer often and allows guys to keep on eating.

Your wife’s spending habits?

My man, that’s some deep beta. I’ve documented a $500k+ earner coworker whose wife did the same and he lost her and his figment of future financial stability.

Your bedroom goal is then 12x month?

It doesn’t work that way….

Either you’re all in or all out.

M Simon
3 years ago

Rob
February 6, 2018 at 11:56 am

No thing is worth the risk/reward.

The adventure sometimes is.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“Weight loss is easy. Reduce your intake to 1200 call day. You’ll be at your goal fast enough. The exercise requirement is a buffer often and allows guys to keep on eating.” I like the keto diet better and it has always worked for me and I don’t have to count calories or anything. Just eat what I want as long as it isn’t high carbs or processed. I want to exercise to build up muscle, not to lose weight. The weight loss is from the keto. It really is an amazing eating lifestyle. “Your wife’s spending habits? My man,… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

M Simon –

“No thing is worth the risk/reward. The adventure sometimes is.”

Agreed, but you can still have that adventure with a non-married LTR easily without kids. If you are that alpha, you can keep that relationship just as long outside of marriage as inside. You just have more options (bail easier) and less risk (financial rape, lose seeing kids). Its called option risk and hedging.

rugby11
rugby11
3 years ago
Rob
Rob
3 years ago

palmasailor –

“Saving early is better than not but talking about becoming a millionaire by putting away 4.5% of your income is deceptively fanciful in real terms.”

I have done the 401k calculation on 4.5% real cost / 6% financial cost + 50% match from 25 to 65 in excel probably no less than 100 times in my life (mostly for co-workers). It’ll get you to $1 million+ over 40 years if you invest in equities at the median US household income (currently $60k).

Sentient
Sentient
3 years ago

Rob

“Its called option risk and hedging.”

In this case it’s called Keyboard Jockeying.

Ride em!

M Simon
3 years ago

Rob
February 6, 2018 at 11:30 am

Dealing with men in general is what politics is for.

fleezer
fleezer
3 years ago

constantly surprised how men in even the most brutal of industries refuse to even consider taking the red pill about women sec def carter got his portrait for the e ring – he paid, first ever (mad dog says to portraits on his walk out of his office at night, ‘I’m working on it”) carter gets up to podium, first fucking thing he does is thank his “perfect” wife sec def. e – ring. blue pill. guys can have the highest clearances. see the most hardcore shit. and still refuse to accept the facts about women the chads banging sec… Read more »

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

a) Why did you get married? especially since you didn’t or don’t want kids? Rob: “[like most men, figured it be easier to get regular sex, happy ever after, yadda yada, the typical reasons people get married besides kids]” Why don’t you change your whining to don’t get married if you figure it be easier to get regular sex without maintaining desire for your wife to have regular desire sex with you, and that you will be happier ever after, by default, yadda yadda, the typical reasons people get married. Follow up question, what qualities did you value besides her… Read more »

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

“But what is the nPV of that $1M ?”

I already told you – I used a 7% return instead of 10% return (LT S&P 500 average) to account for the inflation. So its in real terms. You are welcome to put in 9-10% returns and then bring it back down 2-2.5% for inflation – you’ll get to the same spot. Even if you use a 20% bond, 80% equity mix, you end up with at least $700k in real terms.

Rob
Rob
3 years ago

SJF – I’m not answering an essay on every question about my life.

Let me ask you this. What can a man get in a marriage that a man can’t get outside of a marriage in a LTR besides a (relatively) more stable environment with kids assuming the guy is alpha and wants to stay with that woman.

If you can answer that, I’ll re-cant my marriage is bad for the moment.

M Simon
3 years ago

Rob February 6, 2018 at 2:37 pm Now try doing it with “no money” and kids. It gets interesting. I would have to say that raising kids has been one of the greater adventures of my life. Get Alphaed up. Find a girl with One-itis. Do it. (Marry and have kids.) So how did I get the One-itis girl? I was spinning plates and she just would not go away. Nothing I did made her say, “not for me.” So 43 years after we first started dating. And I’m still at it. And I’m looking for a few plates to… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
3 years ago

“Except for that initial short-lived honeymoon effect for life satisfaction, getting married did not result in getting happier or more satisfied. In fact, for life satisfaction and relationship satisfaction, the trajectories over time headed in the less satisfied direction.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201303/marriage-and-happiness-18-long-term-studies
This i can get into
http://www.fatchancerow.org/
http://www.businessinsider.com/does-marriage-make-you-happier-2016-4
“”Except for that initial short-lived honeymoon effect for life satisfaction, getting married did not result in getting happier or more satisfied. In fact, for life satisfaction and relationship satisfaction, the trajectories over time headed in the less satisfied direction.”

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

I think Eh is right, a spreadsheet is not what Rob needs right now, or us math whizzes calculating ROIs. There are bigger issues about to go red-zone proximity. But Rob is here and taking the colonoscopy so there are some things to like

Not Born This Morning
3 years ago

I’m often reminded of someone I worked with twenty-five years ago whos first marriage blew up really quick. They were both in their early twenties on the wedding day and recent college graduates. After the honeymoon, they moved into an apartment together in a town new to both of them where he had a job waiting. After a few weeks of her whining about the town, the apartment, lack of a high income (princess felt she was entitled to immediately even though they were just getting started), her failure to even look for a job, her incessantly watching the stupidest… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

I said upthread….

Men are generally accurate on their life’s pro’s. It’s their life’s con they buffer away and that’s what dooms them.

Specificity is not sensitivity.

@All

Highly successful men in one area have a tendency to think they’re competent in all. Habit I guess.

I have deep respect for TuffLuv’s divorce testimony. He, too, thought he could predict his divorce’s financial impact.

Fell free to KJ family law too Rob. Fascinating.

We’re all ears.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

‘spoiled rotten cunt”

Wow.

Do you have a gf? If so….how?

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

@ Rob This is not a dig, but an observation on my part re: what I’d advise a young man concerning marriage. We’ve gone over this in a much longer and heated debate here over a year ago. Lol. That was intense and maddening at the same time, as the never married contingent insisted on quoting stats and figures and fear and loathing. Blaximus young man advice concerning marriage. 1) if your age is 20-25, don’t consider marrying anyone if you are an average Joe that’s been a ‘ good, nice guy’ , that has followed societies plans and dictates… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

Rob

I lost right around 10 pounds with calorie restriction, the I went keto and dropped close to 30 more once I was in ketosis.

You can check YouTube, but from what I gather, it’s harder to gain/build muscle while being strictly keto.. Protein is needed and too much protein knocks you out of ketosis.

My plan of attack is to use keto to shrink myself, then once I’ve gone below the target weight, stop the keto and go into a semi bulking thing. Lol, I don’t know if it will work though. I’m experimenting on myself.

Mineter
Mineter
3 years ago

I’ve been reconsidering my reflexive response (NO!) to the question “should a man marry?” A man’s reflexive answer will be coloured, depending on: is he Blue Pill; been divorce-raped; long suffering OMG; or OMG with rock solid frame hitting it out of the park. Alternatively, an assessment of the current gynocentric laws and culture. Men who don’t have a significant other in mind who want to get married make much the same mistake as women wanting to marry. Desiring this status is seriously mistaken. However, on this basis, the reflexive answer is a good heuristic response. This is a poor… Read more »

Mineter
Mineter
3 years ago

I didn’t see Blax’s excellent comment when I started typing mine.

I forgot to add that I think that once a man thinks he has a suitable candidate for marriage, he should do a bit of his own shit testing of her. Set boundaries. Push on hers. Better to stress test a relationship thoroughly early on and have it fail, than to have it blow up “unexpectedly” once you’ve signed your life away.

SJB
SJB
3 years ago

@Rob: What can a man get in a marriage that a man can’t get outside of a marriage in a LTR . . .

Pension survivor benefits where applicable. No estate tax where applicable. Perhaps alimony if of the right mindset . . .

lazarusluz
3 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Yeah, this is the parts of his ideas I tune out as well, then I use your blog/books and any other sources of information I can get my hands on to my balance perspective out, then after that I make my mind about what I want to think about things.

lazarusluz
3 years ago
Reply to  lazarusluz

meant to write “this are the parts”

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

@ palma

“Seems an accurate definition in a lot of cases if you ask me”

I’ve never seen you type s.r.c.

It might be accurate…but you don’t write, use it.

That’s the difference, IMHO.

Great fucking day on TRM. I mean awwwesome. Again.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
3 years ago

” JBPs first reflexive response is to presume he’s done something stupid to instigate a conflict.”

Again, unapologetic masculinity is positive masculinity.

lazarusluz
3 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

That’s the crux of the matter I guess, I find value in what JBP has to say, and in what you have to say. All in all I think in between you both is were many answers lie for the most part, he does presume his wife or other women in general will be as rational as he is, even with the stark evidence of Cathy Newman’s irrational behavior, that’s his blue Pill, but he could not have had survived as long as he has if he had a completely shitty opinion of himself, his own unique circumstance also color… Read more »

O.B.I.T.
O.B.I.T.
3 years ago

Blax wrote the book on vetting but I would just add 1) Look for some work ethic — did she pitch in with the family business, work after school or summers, help put herself through college and so on. Does she consider herself “above” certain jobs to make ends meet or get her foot in the door? Internships or volunteer work count for something too. Bonus points for summers on a farm. 2) Relationship with dad seems important but check out the mom — that could be your gal in 2045. My unofficial mother-in-law was genuine salt-of-the-earth, kept the family… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
3 years ago

>Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I agree with your disagreement and also your understanding of this position. With great respect I have to take issue with your advice to avoid marrying young and I have to point out a bit of Blue Pill Fatherhood coming through in your post. The advice should be very different for girls and boys. I think girls SHOULD marry young. The younger the better. This was the way that society controlled hypergamy and sluttery for thousands of years (that and the death penalty for… Read more »

Lost Patrol
Lost Patrol
3 years ago

Lots of good advice in this thread. Just two that I’ve handled poorly that cost me, that I now see the complete wisdom in them. I’ve found an apology to be the kiss of death with women. It’s interpreted as a weakness and also it confirms that they have been wronged. She often feels that she’s been wronged (if she’s not getting her way), but she’s never sure it’s true until you confirm it. When you are with her family you might defensively feel that they are checkinhg you out. Wrong — you should be checking them out. They probably… Read more »

Marko
3 years ago

@ palmasailor Apologize was your term, not mine. The Assertive praxis does not include apology. It’ s very much like what you wrote about in tech: “Is it really a mistake that something doesn’t work or is wrong, or is it just evolution which comes with the territory. if something isn’t right first time then it isn’t right and needs to change. That’s part of development surely? I’m not sure why you should apologise for that.” Assertive praxis is directive, it is mastery. It is leadership of the process. @Palmasailor The OP is The Marriage Game. The game you are… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

“Except for that initial short-lived honeymoon effect for life satisfaction, getting married did not result in getting happier or more satisfied. In fact, for life satisfaction and relationship satisfaction, the trajectories over time headed in the less satisfied direction.” I used to tell the LTR that the honeymoon effect could be kept going indefinitely. For years she didn’t believe me. Now that she can do her part (stay bonded) she believes me. Of course I make sure to keep her excited. All the time. Not being used to it (being excited all the time) she didn’t like it. Now? She… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

O.B.I.T.
February 6, 2018 at 6:09 pm

The #1 criteria is that she has to have One-itis for you. Without that her passing dissatisfactions will lead to lawyers and permanent divorce.

M Simon
3 years ago

Marko February 6, 2018 at 7:40 pm What works for me is that if I recognize an error I change immediately. No excuses. And if she continues to complain about “that behavior” I just agree with her. I have no attachment to my error (the way women do). So she can’t start a new fight based on the old error. But those times must be rare. I now hold up that event (error followed by instant correction) as an example to her. Women will say they are sorry and then three minutes later repeat the behavior she just apologized for.… Read more »

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

Marko This was not well thought out by me or proof read, but I’ll give it a shot. It’s a necessary question to address, but I don’t think your questions are well phrased in your former comment because they don’t deal with a specific argument and are abstract. So sorry if this answer of mine off the top of my head turns out to be too many abstractions: Just like the Straight UP Bait question “What value does marriage possibly have you motherfuckers? I hate you OMG’s for what you say. You bore the fuck out of me. I defend… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

Blaximus
February 6, 2018 at 3:50 pm

Excellent. I have a similar bio. Except my goal was to take a wreck (bad mother, bad father, bad stepfather) and make it sea worthy. It has taken a lot longer than I expected. .

Marko
3 years ago

@palmasailor
“I’m the boss, suck it up” may work in many business settings.
Again, the OP topic is The Marriage Game, not business.
Different games. Some similar praxis, and some very different.

@OMGs
Let’s hear more insights and stories on the OP. Does anyone else apply Manuel Smith’s Assertiveness praxis?

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

Thank God for Elon Musk in 2018. Lol, there’s Tesla orbiting the planet with Bowie’s Space Oddity playing on loop.

Yeah, I’m tickled and impressed. I’m guess the 18,000 mph orbit makes a Tesla the fastest car ever built.

M Simon
3 years ago

Mineter
February 6, 2018 at 4:23 pm

If marriage is your goal you have already lost.

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

@Marko “What’s the long game, OMGs, after the kids leave home? OMG long game? To not have limiting factors in you fulfilling your purpose and mission in life, with a woman being a complement to your life, not the focus of it. (For me personally, since I was 27 y.o and got married at 29 y.o. my purpose and mission was Security–with an Anna Karenina happy family– and freedom to have endless adventure and lack of general constraint. (And monetary security was a large driver of that.) The Anna Karenina principle states that a deficiency in any one of a… Read more »

SJF
SJF
3 years ago

@Marko @OMGs Let’s hear more insights and stories on the OP. Does anyone else apply Manuel Smith’s Assertiveness praxis? Still talking about abstract praxes. Is there an imbalance in your relationship where one of you has more power (needs the other less)? A One-Up with more power in the relationship and a One-Down which is more dependent on the other throwing him/her a bone? That’s not healthy. Assertiveness should be had. But it’s just an admission ticket for being in the arena with a fighting chance to not be stupid. It’s not the be all and end all. Starting point.… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

palmasailor February 6, 2018 at 9:11 pm I always INSISTED that the apology didn’t count until the behavior changed. And that usually took a while to vet. So – no instant forgiveness. But no continuing hostility either. Until the next “event” , at which point I would cite the history of her apologies. That would make her angry. Which I would address with, “Your anger has no effect on me.” If she continued her anger i’d stop talking to her. About anything. She absolutely couldn’t stand that. Why? Not talking showed her that her “secret weapon” – verbose solipsism –… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

palmasailor February 6, 2018 at 9:11 pm One trick I loved was making her ASK for the thing that made her angry. She had to submit before I was interested again. Of course she ASKed with her fingers crossed. But she said the words out loud. And after a while she actually wanted what in an earlier time got her upset. The Arica system teaches that something that upsets you indicates an inner conflict. I took advantage of that. The inner conflict is usually “I want that, but it is bad for me.” – With the “bad for me” usually… Read more »

M Simon
3 years ago

j
February 6, 2018 at 9:52 pm

I hadn’t read your post when I posted –>

M Simon
February 6, 2018 at 9:55 pm

Jonathan Castle
Jonathan Castle
3 years ago

Early marriage can make a lot of sense: 1) You can get what you need from a woman – children – early in life and have kids to go through life with you into your old age. 2) You have little money to lose in the divorce when you’re young. And you’re still young enough in your 30s to have fun dating afterwards. (Of course you don’t need to be married to have kids. So that’s alway an option.) The alternative is to marry later in life when a divorce is financially horrible and possibly be stuck with a carousel… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

Arguing. You know Markos, many, many times I’ve witnessed couples arguing a storm, with a steady escalation. And those times when I can clearly hear what they are saying to one another, I find myself trying to telepathically communicate to the man ” hey, don’t respond to that..” It hasn’t worked yet. I’ve been thinking about the handle arguments question . I’m not real big on arguing with my wife, and I don’t personally buy in on the ” all couples argue/fight and its normal and healthy ” perspective. As far as I recall, I’m fairly sure that in both… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
3 years ago

Wow. I haven’t even thought about that arguing thing in forever. And I’ve never told a soul about it.

Lol, TRM is like taking a shit sometimes.😀😀😂

Mineter
Mineter
3 years ago

M Simon February 6, 2018 9:53 pm I’m not sure what you mean. If a man wants to marry (someone, anyone will do) just for the marital status or for what he thinks will be sex on tap, then yes, I agree, he is lost. On the other hand, if he happens to find a young, virgin unicorn from a good family and does ALL of his vetting properly (not just her, but everything else, too), and if his goal is to have and raise children in a stable environment, and he can be Alpha 24/7 and make it work… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
3 years ago

grow the fuck up and believe in yourself
https://www.facebook.com/NICABM/videos/10104343178716921/

M Simon
3 years ago

Mineter
February 7, 2018 at 1:12 am

OK. I can agree. If you find the Unicorn.

scribblerg
scribblerg
3 years ago

@Westray – Ya, the constant bs from Blax isn’t bad, it’s just old and uninteresting. Like I can hear all these kinds of stories at any local bar from any hasbeenwhoneverwas…Some guys may like it, good for them. But it’s the same thing over and over and over – and he doesn’t seem to get it. Also, I don’t understand why an actual alpha dog would spend so much time here, it’s not congruent with the kind of guy he says he is. One would think he’d be too busy working on his race cars, being an amateur rockstar, training… Read more »

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