As a few of my readers know my daughter is presently a sophomore at college. Every time she reaches a new milestone in her life I have a tendency to mentally go back in time in my own life and consider how utterly different her experiences are in comparison to my own. At 19 the thought of being as organized and honestly well off as she is in life now would never have occurred to me. For a very brief moment in my life back then I’d kept a journal of what it was I was doing and thinking at the time. My first ‘real’ girlfriend had given me this blank journal (she was one of those girls who wrote diaries) to write my thoughts in and being the Beta I was then most of it was filled with my Blue Pill frustration with girls. She’d gifted me this journal, I found out later, as an effort to absolve her of all the guilt she knew was coming her way for having cheated on me and deciding that, at 18 herself, she wanted to move on into her Party Years without the baggage of a dutiful Beta who thought he was going to marry her.
This was 1988 and the then 19 year old Rollo Tomassi was very much a typical Blue Pill Beta. I sometimes read back through the dozen or so pages I actually took the time to write back then to remind myself how I thought back then. I was very much and idealistic Beta back then, but I had several other friends who subscribed to the same Blue Pill delusions; and now with hindsight I realize this phase in a Beta’s life is one that was around long before and long after I went through it. This was the ‘Break Phase’ I outline in Preventive Medicine.
As it turned out, the girl who I predictably developed ONEitis for, the first girl to spread her legs for me (‘enthusiastically’), the girl I thought had to be “quality” if she appreciated a guy like me, was every bit the ‘play the field’ skank I would’ve never called her because it was what a “typical male” would say about her. At one point I had thought I’d want to marry her. My Blue Pill conditioning had taught me it would be the right, “supportive” thing to do; marry her and support her ambitions and goals (it’s what good Blue Pill boys ought to do) at the sacrifice of my own. And as directionless as I was then, that was an easy decision to make.
My daughter recently informed me that her boyfriend’s best friend just proposed to his girlfriend at 19. Both this guy and his girlfriend are also sophomores at the same school and this is what triggered the reminiscing for me. At 49, and having lived the life I have and the experiences I use on this blog today, I’m very glad my first girlfriend dumped me. That’s hard to say sometimes, particularly when I think back on the pit of misery years I spent with the BPD girlfriend I’d gotten involved with later, but I’m thankful for those bad experiences as much as the good ones. So, it’s really difficult for me to tell my daughter’s friend “oh, congratulations”.
It’s very difficult for me to endorse anyone getting married at so early an age these days or when I was 19. Modern marriage is a menagerie of horrors for today’s men. People say, “Rollo you’re married, how come you’re so hard on marriage?” It’s either that or they presume my marriage is a shit show and I’m venting like a petulant boy. When I’m critical of marriage it’s in spite of my own (very happy for 21 years) marriage. But I cannot condone it for men today – not in its present state. Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I’ve written in many prior posts that I don’t necessarily agree with that assessment, but I do understand it. The risks today far outweigh the rewards, but still there are men who, even with Red Pill awareness, will still take it on.
There’s a running debate I have going on with Hunter Drew (The Family Alpha) and Tanner Guzy (Masculine Style) about how marriage is a lifestyle decision, and depending on how informed a man is about the risks he assumes and when he decides to get married, this decision is literally a question of life or death for that guy. Both these guys married early in life, both have kids, and both will have far different experiences than myself in this respect. Both of them and myself have assumed the risks and sacrifices this entails. I’m fully aware that my wife can detonate the marriage at any time. I’m sure both Hunter and Tanner are well aware that their wives also have the right to have them removed from their home and take their children away from them for any reason. But we’re all married, and as I wrote in Surrender, we have all willingly put ourselves in the most vulnerable position a man can be in; we’ve bet our lives, livelihoods and the future health and happiness of our kids and families on what today is the ultimate suckers bet for a man. And what’s worse, we cannot ever expect women or our wives to ever relate with just how dangerous a position we willingly put ourselves in.
So I’m thinking about all of this after my daughter tells me about this 19 year old kid proposing to his girlfriend. Statistically his marriage will end before he’s 28. I would also bet that, like myself at 19, he’s making a decision that will affect him and his fiancé’s based on Blue Pill idealism – an idealism that’s informed by the Feminine Imperative and delusions of egalitarian equalism. Naturally I can’t possibly think this is a good idea. If I were this boy’s father I’d strongly advise against it, but there are others in the manosphere who would encourage this.
“Grown” Men
There’s an old saying that goes “marriage is our last, best chance for growing up”. I also disagree with this from the perspective of today’s version of marriage, but I understand how homey platitudes like this are appealing to a social order of men who it seems don’t want to grow up. It’s becoming a new way of AMOGing (particularly in religious circles); if you’ve got your shit together enough to see the wisdom in being married and starting a family you’re a “better man” than the ‘boys’ who they believe want to extend their adolescence. It’s really nothing new.
According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.
This is one half of strategic pluralism theory for men. Men who invest themselves in the long term aspect will always look for ways to validate their inability or unwillingness to pursue multiple partners. It’s easy to think that these men make their necessity a virtue, and that may or may not be the case, but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. The Blue Pill has always subjugated men to be predisposed to the one-mate investment strategy while simultaneously encouraging women to adopt a multiple mate strategy. That may seem counterintuitive, but when we look at the Sheryl Sandberg plan for Hypergamy we can see that what they believe is prudence is having a large selection of potential husbands from which to choose.
In Trad-Con manosphere thinking it seems like conventional wisdom to encourage men and women to marry younger. Look at where we’re at today; women forestall marriage – ostensibly to further a career, but really to falsely extend their Hypergamous decision making years – until their Epiphany Phase (29-31) or even beyond by freezing their eggs. Men take much more time to mature into their peak SMV potential, but what’s the common complaint? These men aren’t “being men” by preparing themselves for a life of family and marriage. They aren’t catering their lives’ decisions to fulfill women’s sexual strategy, and really what incentive do they have to when women are following the Sandbergian path of Hypergamy? Men and women marry later and later – if at all. Women unmarried by the time they’re 34-35 are likely to never marry in their lives.
Marrying Early
So it seems like wisdom to tell this kid, “good on you”, in spite of all the odds staked against him and despite the Blue Pill idealistic delusions that are prompting him to propose. Trad-Cons love the idea of a return to something resembling “traditional values” in order to save western culture from itself, but it’s important to remember that those old books values are really just leverage in a new books world.
Marrying early, as I said, is usually the result of Blue Pill naiveté. Both young men and women are still ignorant of who they are or who they have a potential to become. I see a lot of early-marrieds originating in religious circles because this is their only means to “legitimate” sex, but there are the guys who see marrying early a better way to ensure ‘permanent’ sex for themselves. In some respects it’s almost a blessing that women at this age are so anti-marriage – most young men on the investment side of strategic pluralism are far too willing to kill their own dreams to accommodate their investment.
Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally, but it doesn’t remove the evolved influence. By the time that 20 year old mother and wife is 30, she’s had ten years to develop the resentment of her choice by living vicariously through her single girlfriends’ experiences. The context may change, but Hypergamy doesn’t.
Early marriage limits a man’s potential. Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Aristotle said, “The Ideal age for marriage in men is 35. The Ideal age for marriage in women is 18”, not unlike my sexual market value graph, but the reason for this is because it takes much longer for a man to establish himself as a man. The simple truth is that part of the sacrifice of being married means a man will not be able to capitalize on opportunities he would have were he single. Some opportunities may never even be made available to him because of him being married. This isn’t something most early-marrying men consider.
Men who marry early and stick it out through their peak SMV years often feel the mid-life crisis (epiphany) years much more acutely. This is kind of the man’s making up for missing out resentment a wife may feel as she becomes more and more aware that she can’t compete in the SMP for a better Hypergamous prospect. I don’t believe men have a “crisis” per se around this time, but what they do experience is a sense of introspection that’s colored by their now better capacity to understand the game they’ve been a part of with regards to women. When a man’s married well this is less of an issue, but there is a definite remorse over the “life he could’ve lived” if only he’d known better. This is an assessment of the sacrifices he’s made, how they paid off (if at all) and a sort of survey of his life up to that point.
The biggest ‘con’ to early marriage is that it’s always going to be a learn as you go prospect while trying to establish a world that a his wife of the future will want to defer herself to. This worked far better in a culture and time when women would be compelled to defer to a man’s mastery due to religion, social norms and respect. We do not live in those day anymore and women have actionable ‘outs’ of any commitment that doesn’t suit them, while men have more responsibilities to qualify themselves to suit women.
Advantages?
Early marriage has a few advantages, but all of these depend on the personal nature of the woman a man marries. That sounds kind of obvious, but if you go into a marriage with a solid Frame and a woman who expects to defer to your dominance, I think young marrieds might have a better shot at long term success. If a woman is a virgin, yes, this can be a real source of attachment for her if her husband imprints on her as solidly dominant Alpha. I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate. There is far too significant and imprinting with virgin women and sex with an Alpha man, or even a guy who seemed Alpha. This is the recipe for an Alpha Widow, but in a marriage it can make for a strong bond.
As has been mentioned countless times, the most stable and healthy way to raise children is in a committed marriage. This might be the only advantage marriage may have for a man today. In an early marriage I would think that a woman being at her sexual market value peak, combined with following her true biological clock (her prime fertility window 22-26) the odds of having happy healthy children are improved. I have a cousin who spent more than half his life building himself into a millionaire architect, but at my age (49) his children are 5 and 7. I can’t imagine living this life now. I suppose money might make it easier, but evolutionarily speaking he and I should effectively be grandfathers by now. I married at 28 and there are advantages and disadvantages to this as well, but I cannot imagine having young children at my age.
Finally, for the “well, duh” moment, it goes without saying that a young wife/mother should necessarily be playing on your team. The only possible successful prospect for a younger marriage to have any stability is if that woman understands what it is she’s sacrificing. Women likewise sacrifice their own personal potentials and later this becomes their source of resentment. The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage.
In the Trad-Con sphere today there is a constant droning for personal responsibility on the part of men. There is little to none about the responsibilities of women. We’re constantly told that women are only the way they are because men have allowed it. I’ve written before that this is a cop out and an absolving of women’s complicity that mirrors what the Feminine Imperative has put forth. Women are taught not to do anything “for a man” and anything a woman does that might be expressly for a man is is conflated with subservience. Consequently we get generations of women who only indulge their natural solipsism and expect men’s sacrifices as part of the utilities. This is one of the primary reasons all marriages fail; there is no complementarity. Marriage becomes nothing but a naked exchange of resources on the part of the man and anything a woman might do ‘for’ him is frowned upon. And don’t think this is just limited to those blue haired feminists, you can find it at your church.
Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.
Blaximus
February 5, 2018 at 8:25 am
Makes me want to watch -“Blade Runner”
https://youtu.be/USKweKnJVEA
Hey M Simon.
Watch the above 17 wives vid.
Notice the crutches? Nice touch, don’t cha think?
I expect some torrid multiples orgy FRs soon from casa Simon. No excuses.
@ status ” Essentially put it to her. Does she think a family court knows better than the two of them how to raise their kids if our romantic relationship comes to an end? Does she think they won’t be able to put aside their differences and put our kids first? Does she not trust him to always do his best for their kids, and by extension her, whether they succeed as a couple or not? Just my opinion and what I tend to do, and others can weigh in with their thoughts, but I would/will NEVER have this kind… Read more »
“Opportunity kicked the door off the hinges and I decided to walk through And the thing is, this isn’t just about our relationship/marriage. I have the same attitude at work, or in heavy, crazy traffic. I try to take that mindset with me everywhere and under every condition. You don’t fail, you just haven’t gotten the results just yet. Internalizing this makes frustration and self doubt practically vanish. And the best part about this is that it requires ZERO Alpha. Any man from anywhere and any circumstance is capable. “ Nice job Blax. That’s the thesis of the How-to-do-That! book… Read more »
Blax
And the best part about this is that it requires ZERO Alpha.
Let’s not go crazy now… When she was nagging you you held your frame, you did not debate her, you did not go cold, passive aggressive.
You didn’t act like a bitch.
You told her what you could do, wished her well in her fruitless quest and handled business when you said you would.
That ain’t beta…
@blaximus
You DO sometimes write like you’re being paid by the word, but as far as life with a woman, that a/c thing absolutely nails it on numerous levels — as you often do. My LTR is unusually good with cars but is a basket case with computers, so we have played out similar scenes many times. It is as you say.
Here was Zeland’s idea: Discover How To Trust Yourself Transurfing will teach you how to listen to yourself and trust wholeheartedly in your own intuition: If something doesn’t feel right, if you have to talk yourself into something or ‘sell’ yourself on something, or if you are currently in a situation that you struggle with daily there is a very simple way out. We’ve all seen a fly bang up against a window countless times trying to escape, even with an open door nearby. We as humans do the exact same thing. Just as you think the easiest answer is… Read more »
Sentient
” Let’s not go crazy now…”
Lmao.
@ SJF
Man, you’re gonna make me check out Transurfing.
@ O.B.I.T.
I know I’m long..fingered(?). I can’t help it. Believe it or nah, I tried to abbreviate as much as I could.
EhIntellect
February 5, 2018 at 5:10 pm
Well. You know how it is. “If she is into that sort of thing.”
AWALT. LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aOyAvbj2Fg
No matter what happens i really appreciate getting thrown in the world with the madness danger and play.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/08/25/mormons-unveil-temple-changes-single-lds-men-over-30-recently-divorced-members-can-now-serve-there/
Cake in a crisis
https://mensdivorce.com/
@Blaximus “So I’m going step by step, check this, check that, everything mechanical is in order, so yeah, it’s electrical. ” I’m dying to know how you knew it was a bad compressor on the AC. What that just intuition (it wasn’t a likely odds proposition? , or is there a test for that? Lol, I had the most complicated case ever in a long while today. 14 year old boy with the worst, weird rash ever with a super worried mom. (And I had a resident assigned to me to teach him my specialty.) I went through the possibilities… Read more »
@ SJF The compressor was fine, but the relay assists in engaging it. No juice, no engagement, no working compressor, no a/c. When I was in my early 20’s, I’d buy cheap, wrecked cars and update them with every option I could think of. I spent hours and hours in junkyards, getting 6 way power seats and a/c units and leather interiors, aluminum wheels and expensive stereo outfits, and sometimes even factory tinted windows. It was cheap and only required my time and very , very little cash. So through trial and error, I learned. And the lessons translated across… Read more »
“@ SJF Man, you’re gonna make me check out Transurfing.” Near as I can tell, it might bore you to tears. The author says he channelled it from an unknown source of ancient knowledge. The same way you channeled great stuff from uncles and grandfathers. You’ve already said 90% of what it explains over the last couple years in Comments here. But the upside is there may be missing couple percent of it that you can utilize to better explain things to the lost boys and men you counsel on a regular basis. But if it helps one of your… Read more »
I like this kid for thinking and trying, but he figured out the problem and came up with a terrible solution that could fry his electrical system or start a fire.
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se6qv98vCpQ&w=854&h=480%5D
SJF
February 5, 2018 at 7:51 pm
I really like “The Fourth Way” by Ouspensky. He understood and explained “Societies of the Mind” (Minsky). About 50 or 80 years before “Societies” was written. It is a book on very practical psychology if you don’t get hung up on the esoteric theories presented.
P. D. Ouspensky – “THE FOURTH WAY” pdf
Hello all, I am a long time reader, usually don’t comment much. However, this marriage post resonated with me as it’s been on my mind lately, the question of, is it worth it ever for the man ? Irrespective of the shitty odds….. The answer will of course depend on each individual man and his individual goals. It’s a sad state of affairs out there, I know there is a common RP theory out there that marriage rates are dropping because of men opting out, but in my observations it’s women driving the decline and the increasing age of marriage.… Read more »
“Because if you are raised in the United States you have turned into a weakling.”
The whole clip is 3 minutes. The below bit starts at 2m 58s.
https://youtu.be/bYPbWwOoeSg?t=2m58s
FoxGuy February 5, 2018 at 10:19 pm I would posit the question, even in a perfect RP marriage which we are told is the high standard is the juice actually worth the effort required ? Wrong question. The correct question is “what is your goal?” Mine was healing the LTR from a bad childhood. I had healed mine and wanted to pass my good fortune on to a hard case. I got one. But there was more. She chased me and wouldn’t let go. No Matter. What. I decided having kids was a good idea – 8 years in. Despite… Read more »
https://youtu.be/ZTQr1B4jGjk?t=6m55s
“So in the 50s there were a lot of these problems that we didn’t have. One of the reasons they were fewer is that the pill had not come along…. When it did come along, all of a sudden, because you could – you were expected to. Whereas beforehand, you were not expected to as you might get pregnant.” That’s hardly surprising. The average woman doesn’t think of the contraceptive pill as a historically unprecedented tool of sexual autonomy. She thinks of it as yet another burden put on her shoulders by shitbag men. Now she’s expected to buy her… Read more »
Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity.
Then again, most women have no access to the proven commodity they want. What they have, and always had access to, is the potential commodity.
“To become the wife of a general, one has to marry a lieutenant.”
M Simon
I enjoyed that video. Good stuff regarding the ” coddling safety culture “.
@Hollenhund
Right, the pill is her “burden” or she’s somehow doing you a favor …
But just watch them freak out if a new male contraceptive were to shift the balance of power
“They feel entitled to anything you do for them or give them and there is no rowing back from it.” C’mon. What’s TRM for if only showing guys how to row back, start passing those tests? “That’s what women actually, normally think – as long as they don’t want children.” They all want kids, if they don’t have them it comes out in all sorts of neuroticisms. Women on the pill are as vulnerable or even more vulnerable as they’re battling against their primal nature of childbirth. BCPillers are panicked about something natural. Oh, watch herd fawning over newborn babies… Read more »
Oh, watch herd fawning over newborn babies with young women.
even just pregnant women… Can’t go past a checkout counter at the market without the daily “baby bump” pics…
http://stellar.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Kylie-Instagram.jpg
@Blax The a/c thing? it happened yet again this morning. She leaves me a note that the space heater in her bathroom has finally conked out, gonna need a new one. I “fix” the “problem” in less time than it took her to write the note. (Pro tip: you know those little reset buttons on the outlet?) Now this is a competent, successful person and she even takes damn good care of her car. But certain little technical snafus or bureaucratic snags just trigger the feminine cloud of frustration. This does relate to the question of marriage or no marriage… Read more »
@ FoxGuy Good to see you commenting. I agree that undertaking marriage is an individual choice/decision, but if there is one thing I’ve learned since reading the comments here at TRM over the past 5 years, is that the perceptions of the upside and downside seem to correlate with class/social ‘ status ‘ and how isolated and insulated a group of individuals are by these things. I’ve always agreed and supported ” await ” as the concept is fairly testable and bullet proof, yet I maintain that it is by degree. Reading the comments though, I’m continually struck by how… Read more »
36 years old, got married at 24, 12 years in a couple months. No kids and no plans on kids. Very successful career (>$300k/yr; got married when I was making ~$35k/yr) in corporate America with plenty of room to still run. No way in hell I’d get married if I could go back in time and my wife is still attractive and we don’t have a deadroom (albeit, a lot less than before marriage at 2-4x per month than 5-6x per week). I’d advice any young man in their 20s that either is 1) very attractive or 2) has high… Read more »
Mineter, Eh-Intellect and Blaximus all caught the fatal flaw in my idea of trying to sit her down and have a rational conversation in which you bait her into making the case for legal marriage. Acta non-verba. Blaximus- brilliant story! It relates to exactly what we are talking about. What is your goal is the right question. For argument’s sake, my goal is to raise kids in a household with two cooperative parents much like the one in which I grew up. (In reality, that’s the job I wanted 20 years ago but probably don’t have the energy to do… Read more »
“So many men here seem to run into such awful women” I’ve led a blessedly low-drama life with a relatively low-drama LTR so some of the personal stories on TRM have been truly disturbing. As fortunate as I’ve been, TRM has helped me understand my many past mistakes as well as the things I’ve done right. And I’ve been encouraged rather than depressed by this knowledge. So the material here can benefit a wide range of men. As for Blax’s critique of the state as a corrosive presence, there’s also the matter of what the state — namely, the public… Read more »
@ Rob
What’ll want your epitaph to say?
@ Rob
Okay, quick question for you: how long did you know your current wife before you got engaged, and how long were you engaged before you pulled the trigger?
“How can a man sell to a woman the idea of being “married” and raising kids in a traditional household while skipping the legal marriage?L
That’s negotiation land again.
@Status confirmed
“Rational conversation” says it all. Do not attempt at home.
O.B.I.T.
“As for Blax’s critique of the state as a corrosive presence, there’s also the matter of what the state — namely, the public schools — can do to deform and misinform your children, if you have them. Even really good teachers are fighting uphill against the FI groupthink.”
Only have had 1 male teacher in elementary school. 2 in high school
http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.PRM.TCHR.FE.ZS
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28
“Very successful career (>$300k/yr; got married when I was making ~$35k/yr) in corporate America with plenty of room to still run.” of course you have a clever accountant to make sure you don’t pay all that fucking tax on 350K as that is the kind of sheep they love to have in the pen for shearting on demand “look, honey, the number in the account is a different number than it was last month” of course your clever accountant has you set up in some island private holding corp so you can hide at least 20% from mrs mba. and… Read more »
“Even really good teachers are fighting uphill against the FI groupthink.”
all I can remember about my teachers are their tits. one rack in particular… my goodness
as for their FI groupthink agenda…
i guess it didn’t take
Near the end of this…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=130&v=W54X5Nf56nw
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/civil-wars/articles/2017-08-15/how-marriage-is-evolving-in-a-time-of-womens-independence
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-13/who-gets-more-out-of-marriage-women-or-men
Rob You trolling brah? You going to come back… Some questions and observations from your rant. 36 years old, got married at 24, Why? How long did you know her, what was your experience with women prior to her? No kids and no plans on kids. OK no kids, why no plans? Who’s idea is this? Why? Very successful career (>$300k/yr; got married when I was making ~$35k/yr) in corporate America with plenty of room to still run. What does this have to do with your relationship with your wife? She married you when you made $35K… No way in… Read more »
@ fleezer
Lol. Not picking on Rob specifically, but I’ve already stated how I feel about guys putting way too much stock in fiat currency and a debt driven monetary system, or even the ” status ” of others. I hang with my friends because they are my friends.
I asked Rob about dating/engagement timeframe specifically because I’m always flabbergasted by guys marrying women who start dictating, or attempting to dictate to them.
How does that happen?
EhIntellect
February 6, 2018 at 6:52 am
One of the best attractants I ever had was carrying around a two year old. That turns you into a total chick magnet. Women will approach you.
Here in Europe I don’t see this massive pressure to marry. Having children while merely cohabitating does not raise eyebrows anymore. I also think the law is not always so harsh in case of divorce. A while ago I stumbled upon this story, and I think it might interest you all: https://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/7751-why-one-relationship-is-better-than-many/ The author basically states that you are better off if you get lucky with your first partner. An alpha-ish friend of mine agrees with it now approaching 30, and says he finds very hard to find non-crazy girls. @Blax Had fun reading your stuff as usual. The elephant… Read more »
Status confirmed- “Guys, I have this awesome hammer of reason I want to use to resolve a question with her.”
Entire group- “Status, use your screw driver of action. The hammer of reason won’t work.”
Status confirmed- “You guys are right. I should use this new screw driver of action I just got… Hey, did I tell you guys about the awesome hammer of reason I have??”
Entire group- “Dude.”
Unplugging. It takes some longer than others. Cheers all!
status confirmed
February 6, 2018 at 8:09 am
You can have a rational discussion with a woman if it is based on her feelings.
The key is that women (most of them) don’t pay attention to their feelings. They just act on them automatically.
Make her pay attention to her feelings. To do that you have to know them better than she does. And that is useful no matter what. If you can “feel” her resistance building you can alter your approach in real time.
HEY OSCAR!!!! I thought we might have to send out a search party to locate you. Yup, I neglected to include the entertainment industry. Movies and music drive popular culture and add ( or detract ) to the mindset and attitude of all that subscribe fully. Keep everything outside of yourself at arm’s distance. That’s what I advised my kids to do. My father used to tell me ” you can be a fan, just don’t be a fanatic “. There’s something shitty out there for everyone to chose from according to preference. Guard your mind and it’s all good.… Read more »
fleezer
February 6, 2018 at 8:56 am
Virginia Pratt – math teacher – Omaha Central High.
I was really good at math.
I suck at math. I managed to pass advanced algebra in highschool, but I swear the class gave me several mini strokes and damn near killed me.
Never again.
Oddly enough my eldest daughter is a mathematical whiz. When she’d be working on calc/trig equations, I made sure to avert my eyes from her work so that I would live to see her graduate.
@Blaximus – We met at 20, hung out a ton for a couple years, occasionally hooking up, started dating at 22 (~1 yr), engaged at 23 (~1 yr), married at 24. I was BP all the way, although looking back held frame pretty well at that age. If I hadn’t bought into a lot of Christian BS in an uber conservative church growing up, I’d have cleaned up a lot better. Hooked up with 5 other women besides my wife. @EhIntellect -Frankly don’t care what my epithet says @ Sentient -Nope – not trolling at all bro. That’s a very… Read more »
“I suck at math. I managed to pass advanced algebra in highschool, but I swear the class gave me several mini strokes and damn near killed me.” I can relate! I have always excelled at math. In grad school (Computer Science), I hit the ceiling of my abilities. I remember being in a highly theoretical class, and the true braniacs sat around discussing the fine points of some abstract proof. I was trying so freaking hard to ‘get it’ I had tears in my eye and literal headache. The next week, I turned down an offer to pursue a PHD… Read more »
@ Sentient – couple of those comments shouldda been @ Fleezer. My bad
My main point was for the younger guys just don’t get married. Most men will never understand red pill but they can understand marriage is a crappy deal for men. And even men that understand red-pill will have moments they revert back to blue-pill in a LTR (look at Roosh, for example) and in a marriage that basically means divorce rape and may never seeing your kids again if you go that route.
Rob Always interesting when a guy interprets questions on his post as a “rant”… Projection. Always interesting when guys cherry pick questions. I’ll infer from the gaps you don’t have much history with women prior to marrying. True? “The #1 (Over 50%) cited reason for divorce in the US is money. ” First it’s not “money” it’s the struggle with the partner over money. Second, financial arguments are a symptom of sometging else… Not a cause. And so… “The reason I gave current/start salary was to say she didn’t marry me for the money.” Trouble with logic? She didn’t marry… Read more »
Lol. I hear you loud and clear. Other students in class were just working away, and all you com!d hear was me quietly moaning and cursing under my breath.
Good times??
😧
On “hiding money offshore”
please realize as a US citizen you can’t do it unless you are willing to commit a crime and not disclose offshore assets above a minimal threshold on your tax return.
Rob
“and in 1-2 years I hope to be in the top 1-2% or divorced.”
So you look forward to divorce rape? You know these aren’t the only options.
“Make her pay attention to her feelings.”
Huh?
“Frankly don’t care what my epithet says”
I do.
Allow me compose one. Ahem.
Here lies Rob,
Ueber-earner,
Childless
Estranged from wife,
MBA
“With plenty of room to still run.”
Apparently, he ran out of room.
@Sentient You seem more bitter about my postings than I am in my marriage situation and my friends marriages (or dissolved marriages) lol geeze dude. Why do you think I’m on this site? To learn. Even if I perfect RP, marriage is still a shitty deal for high value men. One of the first things you learn in business, is risk/reward. The risks are very high, regardless. The reward is just pussy – and you can get that outside of marriage. Unless you just desperately want kids. Questions – how old are you? have you been married and if so… Read more »
“One of the best attractants I ever had was carrying around a two year old. That turns you into a total chick magnet. Women will approach you.”
Same for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cIYWO92D3U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phR517F7Ics
@EhIntellect
I’d add traveled the world, had lifelong male friends, etc but not bad, actually.
Rob
Not bitter at all. Amused. See chuckleheads like you all the time here… Bluster in on how bad marraige is amd when you go through the list it’s always a beta BP chump seeking company in misery.
Every time.
Now you can learn and grow… It starts with understanding how YOU got here.
As for me, been married for 27 years, with her for 29. Make much more than you too. Have 5 kids.
See how easy it is to answer a question?
Give it another try.
Oh yeah 50 yo.
@Sentient LOL no one answers someone that angrily/snarkily unless they are bitter about something in their life. But whatever bro. Maybe you are just always a dick. “Now you can learn and grow… It starts with understanding how YOU got here.” Again, I already stated I’m here to grow. But the more I’ve learned about TRP over the last couple of years, the more I realize marriage is an even shittier deal than I did 5, 10 years ago. “As for me, been married for 27 years, with her for 29. Make much more than you too. Have 5 kids.”… Read more »
This recently came out on Netflix. I found this really interesting and would like to hear what you think.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80222248?preventIntent=true
Rob
Still buffering…
Well the first stage is anger. Do try and not get stuck there for too long. Lol.
As to your chest thumping “guyz NEVER get married!!!”, that’s going to fall flat since you aren’t disproving you went into it as a beta chump.
World traveler?
Running out of vainglory…and so soon.
“no one answers someone that angrily/snarkily unless they are bitter about something in their life.”
I asked one legit question…
@Blax 🙂 don’t worry I never intended to quit. Just not surf the manosphere too much, because when you are in my situation too much reading can be detrimental. I also have an exam coming closer and since it is in Spanish I need to focus more on that. I finally went see a psychiatrist, as EhIntellect IIRC had advised me to do. He was an old man and it was a bit awkward but the good news is that he probably did not spot anything serious since he redirected me to a psychologist. I made sure it was a… Read more »
Without being bitter.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444746/marriage-benefits-men-take-note
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/relationships/5-ways-marriage-harder-2017-n768876
https://www.trustify.info/blog/infidelity-statistics-2017
Sentient – I’m a lot less angry than you think. Overall I live a very good life, one my parents only could have dreamed out, and my marriage is much better than virtually all of my friends (even from outward appearances), and it will certainly get better the more I learn, as is true with all aspects of life if one tries to learn. “that’s going to fall flat since you aren’t disproving you went into it as a beta chump” Yup – no disagreement there; However, 95%+ of men do and most get worse as the LTR goes on.… Read more »
@EhIntellect
That wasn’t directed at you bro (hence the @Sentient right before hand)
@Rob
Do all your buddies and yourself look like this?:
Where was your former Red Pill Schooling before you got here?
Have you spent much time at Married Red Pill reddit and have you read most of the side bar?
Have you read BluePillProfessor’s Book?
Why do you hang out with unhappy and unlucky guys?
@Shawn Pettersen
86 minutes of social scientists probing spring breakers for new insights on sexual dynamics? I think I prefer the YouTube vids where the shitfaced chicks are falling off hotel balconies. I suppose Florida in March beats looking for trends in North Dakota or Saskatchewan
@ SJF Nope, I/they don’t look like that at all. Most of them actually either enjoy TBP, avoid talking about their marriage when we are hanging out, or even the ones that have been d-raped (a lot of NAWALT attitudes, which I think is typical). Most are having very successful careers and I’ve been friends with most of them for 20+ years. So I would not characterize them as unhappy people, at least not when we’re together drinking bourbon/scotch. Even with myself, I’d rate my career an A, my guy-friends an A and my marriage a C+/B-. However, like I… Read more »
Welcome back Oscar.
Good to hear he didn’t prescribe Abilify. Or ECT. Heh.
What’d the psychologist say?
Rob and my marriage is much better than virtually all of my friends So? Not the yardstick. “that’s going to fall flat since you aren’t disproving you went into it as a beta chump” Yup – no disagreement there; Help your readers out… You want them to avoid marriage… spell out your example they can learn from: a) Why did you get married? especially since you didn’t or don’t want kids? b) what was your experience with women prior to this? c) how did you vet your wife? OR 2) Just convincing men marriage is a bad deal using stats,… Read more »
“I’m a lot less angry than you think.”
You came out swinging you know…first impressions die hard.
“Even with myself, I’d rate my career an A, my guy-friends an A and my marriage a C+/B-.”
Why so prideful on career? Honestly…you come off a chumpish overcompensator for YOUR underachievement in your life’s most consequential relationship your marriage.
Oh, btw let us do the grading. This isn’t Montessori.
Stop using status symbols as masculinity. That’s straight up Beta.
“Oh – and largely off and on at ROK, Rooshv etc the last couple years.”
Yes, that figures.
@M Simon “You can have a rational discussion with a woman if it is based on her feelings.” This is interesting and I remember you saying it before. So YOU can be rational as long as you are well aware she is having a completely different discussion? Your rationale has to tickle her irrationale, in the direction you wish? This might also be something for male writers to keep in mind if the audience is female. But in general I’m cautious about having any kind of relationship discussion, as many questions tend to answer themselves without mis-intervention. As for carrying… Read more »
@Rollo It is possible to circumvent Briffault’s, but most men don’t have the stomach for it. Briffault’s Law and Hypergamy are the dynamics that pretty much define western cultures today. I’d like to hear much more about your theories on this.. The sunset recently on my latest mini-LTR. It was a truly wild and unique one, and like my last one before it.. One. Big. Experiment. Briffault was definitely an applicable aspect of it, moreso than I’ve ever experienced. I’ll eventually get around to writing the FR.. @Simon The only essential benefit you provide in such a case is you.… Read more »
“Never “wanted” kids… ”
Good point…never thought about it that way.
I just fucked…and kids followed. She say one day, “I’m pregnant.” and I’d say “Cool.”
@ EhIntellect Sigh, I typed my first post very matter of fact, which is how I look at most things. If you read it as angry, not my fault. I actually think one of the biggest failings of the manosophere is spending 90% of the time on women and very little on career development, becoming financially independent, etc. About the only self improvement the manosophere really teaches much is gaming and lifting. Both great skills to have, but you need a lot more to navigate life successfully, IMO. “Why so prideful on career?” Why wouldn’t you? The vast majority of… Read more »
Sentient – The white knight for the institution of marriage! I agree with about half of what you said, but you ignore all the statistics with marriage – 3/4 of marriage initiated by women, 97% of alimony recipients are women, over 50% divorce rate and a huge portion of the rest are unhappy, 90% child custody/primary child custody for women, etc etc. Your personal anecdote of a (at least to this point) successful marriage doesn’t mean jack when you are dealing with men in general. And I have no desire to write a novel about my life. Guys reading my… Read more »
@ EhIntellect Put it this way If I told the AFC that if you invest 10 hours a week into either 1) TRP + lifting or 2) personal finance/business savvy on your own time over a 5 year period You could 1) Improve your pick-up ratio with women or your marriage or 2) Massively improve your personal finances, triple your income, etc – all of which also will help you with your PUR and with a marriage and allow you to do whatever you want in your personal life and even ultimately change careers/start your own firm if you want… Read more »
Good posts rugby. The pro-marriage guys at National Review are getting clobbered in its comments section. Funny thing about the infidelity story — it’s brought to you by a private-investigations firm.
“ If you read it as angry”
No, I read it as stupid.
You give me two options as if those are the only options. It’s clear they’re you’re only options but you’re projecting your ego investments on everyone else.
Chump.
“Man-shaming is straight up beta ffs.”
What are your masculine traits, again?
I could care less how you read it (or rather miss-reading it) or your ad hominem attacks. Enjoy the rest of the day bro.
@ Rob It’s not anger you’re hearing at all. It’s just that many of us here have heard certain themes repeated ad nauseum, so we tend towards straight and frank responses with zero sugar coating. Even though at times it sounds personal, it’s not an attack. We speak to you the same way a good friend ( should ) speak to you. We just compress the shit out of time. What I’d say is that at 2 yrs in, you have a very long way to go. Sentient and Rollo have me beat, as I’m just entering y 20th year… Read more »
Re the Jordan Peterson video on how he and his wife deal with disagreement/argument in their marriage. Rollo and all seemed not to have listened carefully to the video. JP did not assume that he was in the wrong. He assumed it could be his wife or himself, or both of them. So they have a “rule” for a cooling off, each go their own rooms, and then come back together to rationally discuss the issue at conflict. Note: Rationally. Now, who do you suppose led the couple to adopt a rule to process Rationally (rather than emotionally in the… Read more »
Rob but you need a lot more to navigate life successfully, But hoping ain’t going to get you more Rob. Nor are blanket third party proclamations. My general belief on marriage matches up nearly 100% with Rollo’s. And appeals to authority aren’t either. Guys reading my posts can take it or leave it as they want. This is what you are experiencing at present… The taking it and not leaving it… “Why so prideful on career?” Why wouldn’t you? You are not your khakis amigo… I wish men on this site would spend as much time on sites like financial… Read more »
You live a logical fallacy.
@ Blaximus First of all – I generally agree with everything you’ve said on this thread, but if your idea of good friend is to start off with ad-hominem attacks, man shaming, putting down accomplishments, etc (which you didn’t do btw) I would completely disagree that is appropriate or helpful or what people need. Neither of those guys have made a good case for marriage except to say its worked for them. Great. Anecdote of 2. I have legions of stats on my side, not to mention the entire RP/Gaming/MGTOW based on the bad deal. And trust me, I know… Read more »
@EhIntellect
“You live a logical fallacy.”
Ok, bro. Like I said, have a nice day.
“your idea of good friend is to start off with ad-hominem attacks, man shaming, putting down accomplishments”
Why so fragile? How you’d make it in the, ahem, cut-throat business world?
EI – Seriously – thanks for the laughs, bro. All the best.
You show up without reading all the comments here and defend some stupid shit you’ve said and you’ve no skin in the game to boot.
Who’s gonna wipe your geriatric ass after your AVM blows? Your non-existent kids, rapidly dissociating wife?
God bless you EI
Rob
… You don’t want to hear how my best friends and I talk to each other then.
There’s a method to the harsher familiarity. Many of us here have gone at each other, hard as fuck, from time to time. Bonds ( internet bonds, but bonds still.) Are formed and help is actualized more quickly.
Don’t go. Hang tough.