False Equivalencies

equivalencies

One of the more persistent questions I get asked about Hypergamy is if there’s a parallel to it in men. I’ve answered this in several comment threads both here and in other forums, but I’ve never really addressed it in a post. When I was considering this I remembered a couple of comments from manosphere luminaries Deti and Novaseeker who I thought summed up this (often deliberate) misconception. Deti was kind enough to provide me with his own observations which I’m quoting and riffing on here:

It’s often said that men and women are both hypergamous.  This isn’t true.  Both men and women optimize.  But only women are hypergamous.

Hypergamy has become a term of art in the manosphere.  It has a very specific meaning which differs from the meaning social scientists ascribe to it.  In social science it refers specifically and only to marriage relationships.   The term is used to refer to women marrying men who are perceived to be wealthier or of a higher social/economic standing or caste, usually observed in Hindu cultures on the Indian subcontinent but also observed in early American society.  In the United States it’s often referred to as women “marrying up”.  

 

 F. Roger Devlin, himself having a social science background, appropriated the term in his essay entitled Sexual Utopia in Power when referring to his observation that young single women always seemed to be looking for the best man they can get at any one time, seeking the most attractive man or men for sex.  Devlin observed modern Western women’s propensity to discard one man in favor of a better man, in serial fashion, always doing their best to “move up” and get  a more attractive, better man with each successive discard and pairing.  

Expanding on this, manosphere writers and bloggers noticed that hypergamy operates at a low hum, like a background operating system, in every woman.   It is “satisfied” while she’s with a man of sufficiently high value. But if a man of perceived higher value or greater attractiveness  shows interest, and/or her current man’s value is faltering, that low hum becomes a loud alarm. This can cause her, at the very least, to have feelings of attraction for the new man and feelings of dis-attraction for the current man. This can in many cases cause her to leave the current man for the new higher value, more attractive man. This doesn’t always happen, but it can happen. Hypergamy can operate in any combination – more attractive man showing interest; current man’s attractiveness waning or falling, and anywhere in between. Thus, the manosphere’s use of the term “hypergamy” came into being, to refer to a core aspect of female sexual nature which is unique to women. 

If you do a Google search for the term ‘Hypergamy’ you’ll find The Rational Male and the topic category link for all the posts I’ve ever done on it is the second return you’ll get below the Wikipedia entry for the term. At the risk of a humble-brag, I’m not sure anyone in the ‘sphere has written more extensively on the subject than myself and I think Deti sums up the conflict in definition that both critics and the uninitiated have with their understanding why there is a need for a broader definition of Hypergamy.

I made an effort to address this in The Hypergamy Conspiracy, but this was some time ago. ‘Hypergamy’ serves well in a much broader capacity, but should the Feminine Imperative find that broader definition threatening to its purpose it will casually dismiss it as illegitimate, because the manosphere appropriated the term. Thus, we’ll see feminine-primary society embrace the larger ideas of Hypergamy (as in the embrace of Open Hypergamy) so long as it’s flattering to, and benefits most, women. Once it gets ugly, then it conveniently denies the legitimacy of the broad definition and it’s strictly about the “women having a tendency to marry up” sociology term.

People confuse “optimization” with “hypergamy“. Both men and women optimize; meaning they want the best they can get, of anything and everything. Men and women optimize everything:  jobs, cars, houses, furniture, friends, even churches. Men and women optimize with each other. But men and women optimize with the opposite sex in different ways, and that’s where the confusion comes in.

Hypergamy in its current iteration in the manosphere means essentially “is attracted only to people who are more attractive than I am”.  Women will be sexually attracted to men who they perceive as “above” them in attractiveness.  They will be somewhat attracted to men who are at their rough SMV level, but that man must bring other things to the table, usually provisioning and commitment, before she will have sex with him. And women are never ever sexually attracted to men who are perceived to be beneath their own SMV level.  

Example:   A woman with SMV = 7 will be sexually attracted to males with SMV of 8 and up.   She will pair with a male 7, if and only if he brings “other things” to the table. She will never be sexually attracted to male 6s on down.  And she will be able to easily get sex with men above her in SMV.  She can occasionally get relationships with male 8s.  She can easily get relationships and sex with male 7s.  Male 6s on down are her orbiters, with whom she’ll never have sex.   

Female critics of the broader definition of Hypergamy often have a (contrived) problem with the distinction between optimization and Hypergamy. And, as Deti explains, a lot of this comes from the fact that women’s sense of their own sexual market value is largely overinflated. Women rate 80 percent of men below average in attractiveness. When you contrast, even loose, statistics like this against the broader idea of Hypergamy you start to see why women would want there to be some analogous kind of Hypergamy for men. Hypergamy in women is founded on three bedrock truths:

    • Persistent doubt that a woman has adequately ‘optimized’ on Hypergamy with any man she has, or will potentially have, consolidated on a long term relationship with.
    • Hypergamy never seeks its own level. Women are always looking for a better-than-equal pairing with men in respect to their own SMV compared to his. When 80% of men are (loosely) agreed to be below average in attractiveness to women, we must consider that this assessment is measured in relation to what women’s Hypergamous doubt might be optimized with in a man.
  • Women’s Hypergamy is based in, and the source of, women’s dualistic sexual strategy. The manosphere euphemism for this is Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. This shorthand refers to Hypergamy seeking optimization in both short-term-sex breeding potential and (ideally) long-term parental investment, protection and provisioning security potential.

It’s important to review these principles of Hypergamy because, for all the protestations of women wanting an equal comparison, there are no parallels of Hypergamy for men’s sexual strategy.

Deti continues:

Men do not operate like this at all.  And that’s the difference.   Men are not attracted only to women who are above them in SMV. A man can be, and often is, attracted to women above him in SMV, and to women at his SMV level and also to women below him in SMV. What is also different is the level of women he can get and how well his relationships will work out, based on his and her SMV.   

A man will be unable to continue a relationship with a woman above his SMV. He is very sexually attracted to them, and occasionally lucks out and gets sex with one or two; but he can’t sustain a relationship with them. He can get sex from women at his SMV level but only if he goes all in and offers commitment. He can most easily get sex with women below him in SMV, many times no strings attached sex. 

Example: A male 6 will rarely get sex with a 7 but can’t keep anything with her going. He’s not even on the radar of female 8s on up. He can get sex with a female 6 only if he offers commitment and provisioning. He can most easily get sex with female 5s on down. 

And here’s the grand difference: A man is OK with having sex with women at and below his own SMV. In fact, he’ll be happiest in his relationships with women beneath his own SMV – a woman is “meh” about sex with men at her SMV, and she is positively repulsed and sickened at having sex with men below her own SMV. She’ll be happiest in a relationship with a man above her own SMV and she can tolerate a man at her SMV. And she’ll be miserable at best with a man beneath her SMV and will tend to blow up those relationships. 

Men and women both have attraction floors. Men’s attraction floor is below their own SMV.   Women’s attraction floor is either above her own SMV and sometimes at her own SMV, but never beneath it.

I explore the fundamentals of intimate attachments and how SMV status influences it here. That article might be worth reviewing because in it is a lesson about Hypergamy. Again, compare the idea that the most secure attachments between couples are ones where the dominant, man’s, SMV status is roughly 1-2 points above that of the woman’s and contrast that against the fact that women rate 80% of men’s attractiveness as ‘below average’.

Also, keep in mind the Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies: For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

The other, minor difference is that men are polygamous, not hypergamous. A man’s imperative is not (necessarily) to get the best woman. It’s to get as many women as possible with as little investment and commitment as possible. If he can do it, he would love to get as many women as possible at and a little below his own SMV, and have sex with as many of them as possible for as long as possible, without committing to or investing in any of them.   That’s spinning plates. Most men don’t do this, because they can’t, because they’re not attractive enough, but that’s a different post.  

A woman’s imperative is to get the best one man she can get for sex and for provisioning.     That’s why you don’t see many women “dating” (i.e. having sex with) several different men at the same time. Women don’t spin plates; they pick the best plate they can and take care of it as best they can. Instead of trying to collect plates, they just change out the plates, one for another, when a bigger, better one comes along.  

This is why the best long term relationship is one in which the man outranks his woman in SMV. He should be at least +1 and preferably +2 in SMV.  This makes both of them happiest in the long run.

On many an occasion I’ve fielded the question, “Well Rollo, if there’s a Feminine Imperative, there must be a Masculine Imperative.” People don’t usually like the answer, but from a strictly evolutionary and biological perspective, the Masculine (or male) Imperative is Unlimited Access to Unlimited Sexuality.

Deti summed this up adequately here, but the more high-minded of my critics will often think the ‘male imperative’ is setting the bar too low for men, but usually this comes from a want of something more than the visceral truth of what motivates us. And I’d agree with this for the most part, if men are to become something more than their base natures would have of them. But using the same reproductive metric I use in describing women’s Hypergamy I’ve also got to recognize that men’s drive for sex has been the incentive for our greatest achievements and our worst proclivities. If we are to be ethical in our judgements we must be amoral in our assessments. Sometimes those assessments will be unflattering for men and women.

The objective issue here is that men’s imperative is not analogous to women’s imperative. When we look at men’s approach to gratifying this imperative we see the stark contrast between women’s Hypergamy and men’s sexual strategy.

False Equivalencies

One of the most predictable responses I expect to hear from women when they chafe at various Red Pill truths is always the first presumption of false equivalencies between the sexes. Whenever I, or any Red Pill man relates some unflattering truth about the nature of women, without fail, the first reflexive response is “well, men do this too, and it’s worse,…” or there’s some other unflattering presumption about the nature of men that’s supposed to provide some counterbalance to the ugly truth about women that’s being related. Feminized men and White Knights will also adopt this tact in order to defend the honor of the Sisterhood so as to have there be no doubt that they ‘aren’t like typical men’ in their identifying with women.

This is to be expected though. The first impulse is to defend against anyone acknowledging that truth by distraction. “Ooh, ooh, men do it too!” is a distraction meant to refocus the intent of objectively (amorally) assessing what is otherwise an unflattering aspect of female nature, behavior and/or the motivators that prompt it. In order to do so we are expected to first presume a co-equal state between men and women, as well as a co-equal state of mutual goals. Thus, for women’s distraction to be effective there must be a presumed state of equivalency between men and women.

As such, we are, by default, expected to accept that if there is a female Hypergamy there must also be a male form of Hypergamy. This is a very useful illustration of the false equivalency principle women rely upon. Deductively it should make sense, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but only in a mindset and a social order based on egalitarian-equalism is that reaction presumed to be the binary opposite of the original action.

If, as equalism would have us accept, men and women are functional equals, then it follows that there must be a male Hypergamy that is the reaction to women’s (often unflattering) Hypergamy. Women’s innate solipsism only reinforces this presumption because only an action that impacts a woman (positively or negatively) is deemed a legitimate truth to that mindset. I would argue that this is exactly why women’s first reflexive defense (to anything challenging her gender-defined ego-investments) will always be to presume some gender-opposite reaction for men. The belief is that while she can’t deny the proposed truth, at least (she) women aren’t as bad as men. From there the objective is to distract from that uncomfortable truth by indicting (functionally equal) men’s natures.

All of this presumption only functions in a social order that’s based on the idea of egalitarian-equalism between the sexes. When we look at things from a gender-complementarity perspective, and we accept that there are fundamental differences in the innate natures and motivators of men and women, those distractions become less effective. Just as Deti explains for us here, once we accept that men are not co-equal agents with women, we don’t even expect that there would be an equivalent to women’s Hypergamy in men.

The genders are different. We both have strategies for sex and life and fulfillment that are often not analogous to one another. Women only expect that there would be analogies because they presume that a female experience, female goals and contexts that benefit the Feminine Imperative will necessarily be what men mutually agree upon as what’s best for themselves. Only in a state of equalism, ignorant and intolerant of anything not agreed upon by ‘feminine correctness’, is there a presumption that men must have some parallel to the motivators and behaviors that prompt women. Only in a state of solipsism is this the subconscious assumption.

This is something to keep in mind the next time a woman bemoans how unfair double standards are for women. Men are not women, women are not men. Our strategies are often incompatible, or at the very least require a degree of compromise or total acquiescence to coexist in an ostensibly symbiotic relationship between men and women. It is only women (and feminized men) who default to supposing men are their functional equals.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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peregrinejohn
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I’d forgotten about the 80% of men being considered below average. Combined with the rest of the article, my mental shorthand for the effect is as follows:

Hypergamy: apex fallacy as a lifestyle.

thedeti
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actually, these are mostly Novaseeker’s observations which I’ve paraphrased. He is the one who first articulated it in terms of SMV levels, and the difference between optimization and hypergamy, from what I’ve read.

Tarl
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“Women rate 80 percent of men below average in attractiveness.”

And then they are shocked and indignant when they divorce and find out that their estimate of their own attractiveness and their ex-husband’s attractiveness are both wildly off the mark.

snowdensjacket0x0x0
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The male equivalent of open hypergamy is having an one way open relationship. Which you can do, despite what any haters say. And women will accept it once you’re value is high enough and your game good enough.

I think this is the main reason women do this hypergamy equivalency. To distract men from what the male version really is. As big of a harem as you can make.

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Sparks Liner High
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I would assume that men and women make relative, subjective assessments of both their own SMV and that of a potential mate. There are certain factors such as age, social status, wealth, and physical health that would seem to unilaterally increase SMV. I find that other factors, like confidence in the case of men, having a more subjective component where the value added to SMV is not obvious. Could you elaborate more, Rollo, on the nature of the subjectivity involved the estimation of one’s SMV?

Ca$h
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Why would an attractive man ever commit to any woman,regardless of SMV?

Yollo Comanche
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@Ca$h

He shouldn’t if he’s red-pill aware. But there are many Blue-Pill alphas who do as they’ve been taught, and are ALSO the tallest, brightest, richest, and part of the dominant social group in a given region.

Shit like him is what assassins are for.

Yollo Comanche
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That being said, anyone with the ability can do as they please. The best anyone can do is adapt and wait for their opportunity. Or make it.

Fred Flange, PhD, Jim Jones Univ.
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Seriously: perhaps I’m misremembering I’m not aware of many serious psych-types using the word “hypergamy” except to say Red Pillers use the word which makes them seximist, un-intersectional connoisseurs of fine whines. To be fair there are one or two slightly aware articles on the idea from time to time in Psychout-Today. My point being most HuffPo-type bloggers and such may write pieces that illustrate open hypergamy to a T without ever using the word or acknowledging it as a concept. Just as a lifestyle choice. And to be fair when I try to introduce these ideas gently to someone… Read more »

anon
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“Shit like him is what assassins are for.”
“That being said, anyone with the ability can do as they please.”

I’ll just let the irony of that one hang in the air.
For fuck’s sake.

scribblerg
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Very interesting piece. For me, the question for any Red Pill man is can you face hypergamy and be with it? Can you get that this is just how it is? HB9 can’t stay way, he he. We’ll see. But what I’ve done is not have her hypergamy trigger an ego defense from me. I maintained my frame and didn’t let my disappointment feed an egoic sense of failure and regret. Instead, I looked at it head on and acted in my own interests. It may be a giant shit test, who knows, but my plan remains the same. Turns… Read more »

thedeti
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>Seriously: perhaps I’m misremembering I’m not aware of many serious psych-types using the word “hypergamy” except to say Red Pillers use the word The first time I remember hearing the word was in a sociology class in college. But it explained a concept my parents had told me about, which was “marrying up”. Devlin’s first use of the term in that paper was probably his effort to give a name to something that didn’t have a name, something he observed which appears unique to this time and place – an unregulated sexual marketplace in which women are free to do… Read more »

Rand Hooks
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I agree with this article. Seems like looking exclusively for someone with a higher SMV mirrors seeking validation. Where as alphas consistently find contentment in who he is & his choices. My initial reaction is to criticize female nature for continuously looking for higher SMV. It has the appearnce of (she will never be content) which reflects the phrase hypergamy doesn’t care. Without the proper guidance thay can present as a fear or tool control a man… Make him function as a beta. Thinking and making choices with fear of… The motivation. This is why we don’t believe in oneitis,… Read more »

kfg
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” In order to do so we are expected to first presume a co-equal state between men and women, as well as a co-equal state of mutual goals. ”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2560070/british-man-20-will-be-the-first-to-give-birth-to-a-baby-thanks-to-sperm-donor-he-found-on-facebook/

anon
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“https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2560070/british-man-20-will-be-the-first-to-give-birth-to-a-baby-thanks-to-sperm-donor-he-found-on-facebook/”

If we’re picking candidates for assassination (only after “his” “confinement” of course).
Why not THIS one?

ManlyMan
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Purple Pill Debate proved your point Rollo.

And they’re too stupid to know it.

EhIntellect
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@ Yollo Comanche

“tallest, brightest, richest, and part of the dominant social group in a given region.”

Don’t taze me bro!

gb_hill
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This is one of Rollo’s better essays and Deti’s comments were first rate. I would add a few things to the SMV discussion though. I think you have to start with a baseline looks based SMV analysis. You operate within a five year age differential and start there. So a 20 yo 7 girl and 24 yo 7 guy would be in the same age range. You could get into socio-economic status but I won’t complicate it. Then you throw in other factors like wealth, social status and Game. That last would be the combination of emotional health, psychological strength,… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@anon

Doesn’t count.

Blaximus
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” Men like Trump, Stallone, Willis, Hefner, etc are examples of men getting “younger, hotter, tighter” in the long term sexual market. Money and status are involved for that. In the case of Melania Trump, well she has captured the highest apex alpha in the entire world. ” All divorced at some point. ” In the case of Melania Trump, well she has captured the highest apex alpha in the entire world. ” Lol. Donald Trump is not any manner of apex alpha. Maybe now, being the prez, but he’s never been what most guys would consider apex alpha. Money… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@EhIntellect

Even if it’d make me happy to do it, it’d ruin my life. I used to have sympathy for those less fortunate than me.

Do you know how many times I’ve been suppressed by people I meant no ill will towards?

You think I shouldn’t take that personally?

It’s just not your turn yet, “bro”.

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . if you ignore the whole fiat currency thing . . .”

That’s why I like to keep hard money. 695 US quarters are actually worth 25 cents.

anon
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“@anon
Doesn’t count.”

Doesn’t count? No unleashing weapons of ass destruction?
Oh wait, wrong kind of tranny…

M Simon
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My wife married me for two main reasons (we have talked about it).

1. Alpha – she didn’t want no wimpy beta
2. Brains

Of course I had some other attributes she liked. Tall 186.69 cm. Big ass (she likes). The guys she was checking out when she was deciding were (besides Alpha) all tall. I was the brainiest.

Sentient
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Ca$h

Why would an attractive man ever commit to any woman,regardless of SMV?

Because he wants to. This may be a frame of personal agency you are unable to comprehend, given the question.

TheLastCoyote
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Women use the “men do it too” defense for two reasons. One, because few women will ever admit to practicing hypergamy. They’ll give all kinds of reasons for why they’re dating or marrying a guy except the key reason – they’re dating or marrying above their SMV. Two, because women almost never take responsibility for their actions. The “men do it too” defense is as good a way as any to divert attention away from their actions or motives. When I was single, I remember meeting a nurse at one place I went to for work. She was single. But… Read more »

M Simon
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“Pick the best one you can and go all in.”

My mother did that. It was not taught to the generations that followed (she was born in 1919).

M Simon
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“women almost never take responsibility for their actions”

Ain’t it the truth.

walawala
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Men rationalise this almost as much as women. A friend of mine’s gf bolted on him after he started talking marriage. I mentioned it to other guys that he was feeling down. “He’s no angel either” a few mentioned back. A guy I know said the same to me when I was pissed that plate was running around. Men rationalizing this seems Blue Pill and smacks of acceptonrg the feminine imperative. When my friend told me his story I empathised with him I didn’t throw it back in his face. The big problem sadly is guys don’t support each other.… Read more »

M Simon
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What keeps the OL in line? What has kept her in line (no divorce)?

Every now and then when we are out some cute 20 something will go nuts in my presence. I always tell her, “I sure would miss you but I do have options. Remember that 20 something giving me IOIs last month?”

M Simon
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“Women tend to be more supportive of each other in general terms…”

Except when they have an interest in the same guy. Then it is war.

M Simon
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rugby11
February 28, 2017 at 6:09 pm

The girl had PTSD. The guy had no clue about how that works. Generally people afflicted with PTSD go with others with the same problem. If the guy understands the science of it – even better.

Yollo Comanche
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@rugby11

How unfortunate. I have a feeling that buddy was the furthest thing from her mind at that moment. The best laid plans…..And when the thing you want to make it ok that you’re still breathing is something you can’t directly control you are pretty far removed from coping skills.

Too bad he had to go through that. Too bad she couldn’t find a reason to keep going. Too bad society isn’t allowed to talk about why people do this type of shit, or else everything GOES to shit.

Yollo Comanche
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@walawala

I like to think there’s a dive bar FILLED with late 20’s early 30’s NOBODIES that use eachother and back-bite and grit their stupid teeth and take photos together.

And then someone just throws a grenade and the whole thing just gets destroyed, everyone dies and then they rebuild the property and open up another dive bar.

Yollo Comanche
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@walawala

If you want a friend, be a friend.

But I have a feeling that whenever guys ever banded together, there’s always been some mouthy bitch who talked about those men as if they were gay.

Whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter.

Most guys are smurfs and when they hear that smurfette thinks they might be gay they make their little smurf sound and it alerts any men or women out there that they lose their composure and results in a re-ordering of the stroking ladder.

That’s ONE way to enforce the Feminine Imperative.

rugby11
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Comparission https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywtH4489DWw 2,450 “There are 8 SEAL teams in the NSW (Naval Special Warfare) and they are split into 2 groups. Group ONE is made up of all the odd-numbered teams while Group TWO contains all the even numbers. The teams range from 1 to 10, but teams 6 and 9 are not acknowledged by the government. The Navy SEALs has its counterparts in the Army as the Green Berets, Night Stalkers, and Army Rangers. The special ops force of the Air Force is the Delta Force. And the Marine Corps has RECON and MARSOC. Each group of troops is… Read more »

Blaximus
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The thing about women seeing 80% of men as below average in attractiveness is only proof positive of the madness of women-think. I wonder is that percentage speaking strictly of visual attractiveness? It almost doesn’t matter what level of initial attractiveness a random skirt attributes to a random dude, because that can be changed right inside her head. I have witnessed gigantic fat assed chicks turning their noses up at a man’s height, or ( lack of )wealth, or the car he drives ( or doesn’t ), or his manner of dress or haircut…. how can anyone assign a true… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@Yollo

Do you know how many times I’ve been suppressed by people I meant no ill will towards?

Ain’t we all…if you’re awesome, people are just gonna envy…happens to me all the time…gotta tell ’em, “I’m just really lucky.” Gotta find something to compliment them about to defuse the resentment

Yollo Comanche
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@theasdgamer

“‘gotta tell ’em, “I’m just really lucky.”

I’ll be an expert at this skill this summer. What’s the point of being unafraid of people if I end up being afraid of what they might do to fuck up my shit? That’s a load off my mind. Thanks.

SJF
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Amen Blaximus.

Do I worry about the tax on my masculine performance?

About as much as I worry about the tax on my huge suburban home and my wildlife habitat farm and my huge income working 2 1/2 days a week.

No. Hypergamy as a tax on the masculine guy’s performance is treated as an indifferent based annoyance.

walawala
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@Yollo. I expect crap from girls….im more disappointed in guys. In another case an ex who I hard nexted tried everything to get my attention and by getting my attention I mean she was sweet nasty and provocative. I have ignored for 2 years now. The last attempt was a blatant attempt to throw herself at a friend of mine in front of me. I explained to him that this was her acting out. He realized the drama he was stepping into a blew her off. My respect for him grew. He stood by me instead of falling for the… Read more »

mersonia
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“This is why I was saddened by the PUA contingent happily shitting on the deep conversion ( I know, shitty name ) discussion in favor of the short term understanding. Wasted opportunity.”

If you run mystery method and do the comfort stages correctly you would be at the deep conversion stage (lol deep conversion(loooooool call it what you will) ). Most pua’s are focused on setting up fuckbuddys instead of the long term relationship so it’s avoided

SJF
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“If you run mystery method and do the comfort stages correctly you would be at the deep conversion stage..” Notwithstanding, Erik Von Mark’s real life experience. And YaReally’s take the ball and go home routine after trying to have his kids and eat his pussy too. Game is universal. It is fungible across all relationship platforms. I LoL at YaReally’s drunken rants about how anything other than poly relationships were shit, while developing a grand plan to have descendants (otherwise known as children) in a grand plan to carpe diem. Dictate to other men how they shall do and you… Read more »

Glider
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Man, i’m 51 tomorrow, fit & healthy, good looking, never married & no kids. I’ve always played the field and done well with the ladies, usually much younger ones. I’m a music producer who lives in a remote part of Australia on my own property, so i do as i please and have an enviable lifestyle. I’ve been reading TRM for some time & have full respect for Rollo’s insightful writings & many of my brothers here. It’s just all so true about the true nature of women and the twisted feminist construct we live in. When i was a… Read more »

hansolo007
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Men and women are complementary. The complement of women looking higher is men that looking lower. The many women that want the few and the few that want the many women. Hypergamy vs polygamy. Of course many men can control their polygamous desires while others simply don’t want to fuck it up with the 6 that accepted them by fucking a bunch of fat 4’s and getting caught. And some women overcome the societal antigravity that sends their hypergamous tastes soaring, either as wise or lucky outliers or chastened by one too many romantic rushes revealed in the grey morning… Read more »

hansolo007
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Should read: “The complement of women looking higher is men looking lower.”

mersonia
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“I LoL at YaReally’s drunken rants about how anything other than poly relationships were shit, while developing a grand plan to have descendants (otherwise known as children) in a grand plan to carpe diem. Make sure to breathe. Humans got to the moon afterall “My bias against Mersonia and YaReally is that they aren’t well balanced in masculine real life. V.S. Just Game. I think the “Just Game” fuck real masculine shit has been well expressed by their comments. Deny “hobbies” as a masculine way. Fuck purpose and “a way for a man”. Purpose and Passion are a way of… Read more »

mersonia
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bloomfy
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@Glider

Sage advice from your dad.

Mine was the opposite and what I’ve learned merely through discovering TRM and simply observing in the last 2 years is worth more than any education I’ve received in my life.

I’m in Aust. too and thinking of suggesting to the Education Dept that they make this part of NAPLAN for boys.

I’m sure they’ll go for it!

Single now and the sense of freedom is cleansing.

Sentient
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Sentient
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Mersonia is such a retard he does not even realize that Mystery could not do Mystery Method correct enough to deeply convert the mother of his child.

Tremendously stupid poster.

DisgruntledEarthling
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@Blaximus
Control yourself and work on you. It’s all about you. These chicks are just along for the ride. They have to work for it. Remember that shit always.

Wise words. This resonates with me. I keep forgetting this principle.

theasdgamer
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@Yollo Commanche

What’s the point of being unafraid of people if I end up being afraid of what they might do to fuck up my shit? That’s a load off my mind. Thanks.

You’re welcome, buddy. I got this from Robert Greene’s The 48 Laws of Power.

Law #46: “Never appear too perfect”. It provokes envy.

theasdgamer
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Mersonia is such a retard he does not even realize that Mystery could not do Mystery Method correct enough to deeply convert the mother of his child. Tremendously stupid poster. I remember Fred Astaire’s old movie, Daddy Longlegs. In that movie, Pendleton dances with a woman who was backleading and there is some patter about it between the two of them. Pendleton doesn’t directly address the issue, but he enforces his boundaries with humor, while making his point. I am recalling the dialogue from memory and paraphrasing it. Backleader: I enjoyed dancing with you so much! Pendleton: Yes, it was… Read more »

EhIntellect
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@ yollo @ asdgamer Yeah, I should have invoked Poe’s law. At any rate, IMO many good natured BP success stories are adding to FI rot by convention, not Machiavellian scheming. They’re being dragged by the current too. I’m not denying the upper echelon HR, cultural hatred toward RP thought and minimizing the justified anger. Most people think they’re doing good for the right reasons. Fortunately, I do experience serious RP progress every day under my roof, in my marriage and hence my rah-rah! ebullience, crappy jokes. The discomfort, violence is understandable. It’s painful swimming against the current, always on… Read more »

cattaro
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A Wise Man
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I think it’s important to note that women rarely ever date down financially speaking. They’re more likely to date down in the looks department than in the resources department. I’ve seen far more woman chasing after fat rich men, than chasing after fit good looking broke men. I think there are racial differences that come into play here though. For instance, black women are more likely than white women to look past a man being poor if he is physically fit.

kfg
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kfg
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@ASD:

I had a nostalgic fit of watching Astaire clips the other day. Some observations:

Leslie Caron was a lovely little dancer. She was right about the studio hair styles as well, but the studios were right that she should never have been allowed near a pair of scissors.

Vera Ellen was just lovely and could flow like butter melting.

Fred and Ginger might have had movie chemistry, but Cyd was Fred’s best dance partner and I’ll go with Rita as number two.

And down a side spur, Eleanor Powell’s little turn with Gracie Allen was kinda sweet.

Paul (@BoxsterPaul)
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Rollo, The Male Imperative doesn’t make sense to me from an evolutionary perspective. If pump&dump is the MI how does it account for monogamy throughout known successful human experience. While I can perhaps understand marriage as a female construct, I don’t agree but I understand the argument. It doesn’t follow that monogamy is in the females best interest of Hypergamy. We know that infanticide tendency is in all primates. its theorized that monogamy arose as an answer to combat infanticide for those with long reproduction cycles. The other strategy is for females to mate with many many men, and let… Read more »

thedeti
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“The Male Imperative doesn’t make sense to me from an evolutionary perspective. If pump&dump is the MI how does it account for monogamy throughout known successful human experience.” Men have a sexual imperative and a social imperative. The sexual imperative was discussed above. The social imperative is to compete and win. To defeat, conquer and subjugate other individual men and take their women, money and stuff. And to get into a tribe of like minded men with the same interests; defeat, conquer and subjugate other tribes; and take their women, money and stuff. Monogamy exists in men simply because most… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“So why does infanticide disappear when discussing Humans?”

This is not the usual sort of place. We have gone as far as bringing up filial cannibalism here.

” . . . .isn’t arguing for better treatment of men in monogamy a better answer for all men and children.”

It is better for civilization, but here the main subject is zoology, not poli-sci.

“I don’t see it as benefiting ALL men, just the upper tier SMV males.”

Appeal to undesirable consequences. Such appeals have their place in poli-sci, so long as outright fallacy is avoided, but they have no place in zoology.

Yollo Comanche
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@SJF I’m not sure YaReally ever discounted the hobbies or mascunline self-improvement. He just noted that on most levels, it’s just a catalyst for a type of behavior you can learn how to accurately fake. Throw on top of that the fact that there’s a ton of people trying it and you have validation-driven subculture that just happens to consolidate itself primarily through access to nookie. Many men resent self-improvement because of not only Hypergamy itself, but because Open and Far Less Restrained Hypergamy make their efforts feel like throwing money down a hole. It’s not true. Or is it?… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Being a well-rounded individual has nothing to do with it.”

Don’t knock what you haven’t tried.

“I feel sorry for the new waves of chicks who don’t understand why guys are learning game. Even guys don’t understand why they’re learning game.”

It’s babies all the way down. I keep pointing it out because people keep getting themselves wrapped up in other issues and losing sight of it.

It’s not your job. It’s not the car you drive. It’s not the contents of your wallet. It’s not your fucking khakis. It’s babies.

All.The.Way.Down.

Yollo Comanche
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@kfg

I’m not knocking it. Just noting that anyone bringing babies into this shit are going to have to explain why it is the way it is. That’s nobodies job?

T-Prop
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(Hypergamy) + (Overvalued self-SMV) = chronic bepissment.

Rather explains the persistent mental state of today’s ‘strong independent liberated’ woman.

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . explain why it is the way it is. That’s nobodies job?”

That is one of the traditional functions of tribal elders. That’s why tribal elders have to be stuffed down the memory hole by anyone embarking on a program of social engineering.

Yollo Comanche
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@kfg

Meanwhile in Oklahoma…….

A judge passed a law that says women need men’s consent to abort a child they decided to expose themselves to the chance of having.

……it’s a start.

EhIntellect
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@kfg @yollo

If you like counter-cultural long ball, raising RP kids in a BP world is all reward, minimal risk…and a lot of fun.

Per kfg: Don’t knock it til you try it.

hansolo007
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@Paul There is not just one overarching Masculine or Feminine Imperative that applies in the same way across all conditions. Polygamy is the alpha male’s Masculine Imperative (MI) reproductively but enforcing monogamy can become the enlighted alpha male’s MI when he wants to rally an army of beta males to serve in his army and build his empire economically. Monogamy is the beta male’s Masculine Imperative since he usually can’t compete in a purely SMV-based “free market” (enforced by either conditions of scarcity or danger where the woman needs a man that will actually stay with her, or by cultural… Read more »

Choc Doc
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@ Blaximus
February 28, 2017 at 7:20 pm

Your Post was on P O I N T !!!!!

hansolo007
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@Paul

Also, in prosperous and safe conditions then the male who spreads his seed will have many surviving offspring since his providing/protecting isn’t needed. And women can acquire “better” genes for their children by hypergamously fucking upwards, even though the man won’t stay around.

However, in poor and dangerous conditions the promiscuous down-fucking man and the hypergamous women would not have any/many of their children survive and so there it’s often more advantageous to shift more towards monogamy and make sure that a smaller number of kids (say 4 with one women vs 40 with 40 women) survive.

Black Pill
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This -2 SMV thing doesn’t ring quite true. I mean isn’t the whole PUA community about learning to go after and get women who would previously have been out of your league? Speaking from my own experience of four LTRs, the unhappiest by far was the one where my gf was a -2. She absolutely adored me, but I just wasn’t that into her, and was always checking out other women. She picked up on this, became increasingly jealous and possessive, and before I knew it my life was utter hell. It got to the point where she was certain… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@EhIntellect

I’m Working on it! I’m Working on it!

Yollo Comanche
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@Black Pill

Women have compromises of their OWN to make in their approach to US.

It’s still about getting your parking space at the club. Most men don’t HAVE one of those. Too much emotional baggage.

Lost Patrol
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@kfg

Cyd Charisse was born Tula Ellice Finklea on March 8, 1921 in Amarillo, Texas. And had one of the extraordinary female forms of our time.

Amarillo. Huh. You just never know.

hansolo007
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@Paul I agree with your take on societies trending towards monogamy (or quasi monogamy) in order to survive and compete against others. Things can move away from that for a time when prosperous/safe conditions exist but that will usually sow the seeds that destroy the prosperity/safety. The enormous technology-plus-cheap-energy fueled rise in global prosperity and safety (as evidenced by the huge growth in population; and yes, even in places like Africa where medicine keeps babies from dying so that their population has exploded) over the last 100 or more years is far greater than ever experienced and raises the question… Read more »

rayleigh taylor
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@ M Simon “because women almost never take responsibility for their actions” I am an ACOA Adult child of an Alcoholic there’s more but just to keep it on one page. She, my mother refuses to acknowledge the damage she has inflicted on me. Even when presented with physical evidence to the contrary cannot acknowledge what she has done. Refuses outright to think her behaviour is anything but right and can and does when confronted use my father for blaming and shaming and generally deflects. When cornered can only use tears and poor rationales. Cannot engage in any analysis of… Read more »

Lost Patrol
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Choc Doc
March 1, 2017 at 9:55 am

@ Blaximus
February 28, 2017 at 7:20 pm

Your Post was on P O I N T !!!!!

———————————————-

Blaximus keeps everybody on target. Relax about the girls, work on/for yourself, they’ll come along.

hansolo007
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@Black Pill Yeah, most men don’t feel attracted enough to a woman -2 relative to them. Women have a bell curve of men they could be attracted to (physically + personality + status, etc.) that is centered to the right (or higher) than their own relationship value but with a leftwards tail that is at their own value. If she’s a 6 then there will only be a small sliver of male 6’s that actually push her buttons enough for her to want to LTR him. And men have a bell curve of women that will be attracted to them… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@Lost Patrol

Blaximus keeps everybody on target. Relax about the girls, work on/for yourself, they’ll come along.

If you have anti-Game, this really doesn’t work. Work on your social skills, minimum.

Sterling
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Isn’t another false equivalence the SMV scale for men compared to women? Let me try and explain what i mean. The scale is highly subjective in the first place, and the criteria for each sex is different. For women her SMV is based almost entirely on physical appearance, whereas for men its a combination attributes. The scale makes good sense generally except for the margins.. It could be argued that for every girl no matter her SMV, there will always be a man who is higher on that scale? The obvious example is a female 10. For every HB10 there… Read more »

Lost Patrol
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@theasdgamer

Blaximus keeps everybody on target. Relax about the girls, work on/for yourself, they’ll come along.

If you have anti-Game, this really doesn’t work. Work on your social skills, minimum.

Anti-game does sound like a significant handicap, but isn’t working on/for yourself the antidote to anti-game (e.g. “work on your social skills”)?

fleezer
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“Men have to be very patient and up their value to find those few women that he’ll be attracted enough to and that will be attracted to him.” agree about being patient. it’s hard enough finding decent ONS girls, let alone one I would consider bringing home. would love to see some data about hypergamy when choosing a third. we’re basically looking for a clone of my wife. does that mean women really just want to fuck themselves? lol. campus is full of braindead progressive fatties, the bars are full of boring career slut fatties and the clubs are full… Read more »

Jay Fink
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@fleezer, Maybe if there was such a thing as male hypergamy we wouldnt have a female obesity epidemic? Imagine a world where no men would have sex with much less get in a relationship with a fat woman. I guarantee we would have a LOT less obese women than we do today.

rugby11
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Destroy the difference for self in March. https://thefamilyalpha.com/2017/03/01/day-1-creating-the-men-of-march/

If-I-Fell
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I had a proud Papa moment today! I asked my Son, “What is the best thing to do if your wife wants you to get a vasectomy?” My Son answered, “Get a new woman.” “YESSSS!” This is, what I would later understand to be, red pill wisdom that I shared with him when he was about twelve years old. I made a game out of it and would quiz him from time to time. The original answer was get a new wife, but perhaps his new answer is better. This red pill thought was triggered when my wife ran into… Read more »

fooco1
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“The term is used to refer to women marrying men who are perceived to be wealthier or of a higher social/economic standing or caste, usually observed in Hindu cultures on the Indian subcontinent..” That may be the funniest thing I’ve read all year. The whole point of the caste system [which really comes from the Edda based aryan religions, Hinduism and Norse being the closest, their holy books written in almost the same language, being close variations of each other and called (v)Edda in both cases]..the whole point is women CANNOT MARRY UP past a caste boundary. (however much they… Read more »

Zach
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The column is absolutely correct for the most popular reason that people ask if there is male version of hypergamy. I think the less often, people ask this question genuinely looking for perspective, though. A girl might ask “Why are men so shallow? Why does having a few extra pounds make a girl undatable? A woman can see past a few physical flaws if an overweight guy has other good qualities. Why can’t men?” The response to that is to ask how many guys she has dated who are shorter than her. For men of quality, being fat is a… Read more »

Ag
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Pardon me if I didn’t get it right, but after careful reading both your books and this post, I think there’s a problem.
Women are hypergamical while men Polygamical. That means, according to the post, that they seek the best Male available, even discarding the old one.
Isn’t this principle in frank contradiction with alpha fucks/beta bucks, which is a pokygamical directive?

If-I-Fell
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@ Rollo

I am not loving the reverse comment order. I like to scroll down. This feels like my email inbox where I have to read the newest emails first to know which older emails I can ignore.

But you know me. I never complain. I remember some asshole complained about the like button. But you know, like, if I can remember his name I’ll report him for being a troublemaker so we can have him banned.

EhIntellect
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@ If I Fell Mission accomplished re: your son rejecting vasectomy. Kudos. The procedure was emancipating for a divorced friend, financially stable, children grown, many plates. The procedure was severely betatizing for a successful colleague. Divorced, then married post wall dream girl. He collapsed to her hypergamous desires, had reservations the day prior to the snip. I prompted him subtly to trust his intuition. Nope, his began arguing for the FI and its benefits to everyone, him, his wife, their future, aka his BB servitude. I don’t dare confirm my suspicions how it affected his married man sex life. The… Read more »

thedeti
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Another thing to point out are differences between men and women in how hypergamy and optimization play out with the role of sexual attractiveness in relationship formation. Women will have sex with a man she’s kinda sorta sexually attracted to, if that man brings “other things” to the table. SHe might not really WANT to fuck the guy; but she’ll be WILLING to fuck him. She will not want to fuck, nor will she be willing to fuck, men who are below her in SMV. For women, there’s want to fuck, willing to fuck, and won’t fuck. Hypergamy demands this… Read more »

thedeti
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test

Rollo, WP just ate a comment or it went into moderation.

Softek
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@ thedeti Nice comment. Very concise and clear points and very solid, and made me have some quick realizations. “Men will have nothing to do with women they’re not sexually attracted to. Men don’t have sex with, date, or have any kind of relationships with women they don’t want to fuck. For him to offer a woman anything, anything at all, even the slightest bit of attention, he has to be sexually attracted. Sexual attraction is paramount, it comes first and foremost, it absolutely HAS to be there, or nothing will happen, ever. For men, “want to fuck” and “willing… Read more »

EhIntellect
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@fleezer Re: the nationwide obesity shit test Obese women ’round here only just have been more bratty, expectant about the perception of their body image. Are they self hating bitchy because they’re fat or are they fat bexause theyre self hating bitchy…and dudes aviod them? Chicken-egg. Related: colleague returns recently from cancun trip. He states the vacationing kids, young adults are fatter, sloth-y. The parents are the fit, energetic types. Apparently motivation isn’t necessarily inherited. Related: this is my colleague’s second marriage after 3 kids, wildly expensive lifestyle. After the divorce he told me the total cost of the marriage,… Read more »

EhIntellect
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Oops,

Correction: Oh God yes…

Sun Wukong
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@Ag

You misunderstood hypergamy and polygyny.

Men, being polygynous, will keep multiple women around. “Spin plates” in sphere parlance. He’ll have them in a heirarchy with his favorite(s) given priority, but he generally doesn’t discard a girl just because a new one comes along.

Women on the other hand “branch swing”, normally discarding the previous (now unsatisfying) man for what she perceives as more hypergamously optimal.

There are – as with all rules in this world – exceptions to both general rules. However they’re just that: exceptions.

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