Alpha-Beta Communication Modes

communication

I had a really good comment from Rites of Passage from Elooie I’ve been meaning to get back to for a while now:

This post has been here for about a week so this comment might get buried but I was wondering if it would be an interesting post for you to speak to the difference in how women communicate with men they find alpha and men who are their emotional dumpster. (Its been covered in aggregate by multiple posts but not specifically how women frame the conversation)

At my work, I am an expert in not only my field but in our company. Even our newly hired CFO made a comment about finally putting a face to the legend he had heard about (when we met).

Since becoming red pill aware and really beginning to actively observe men and women in the office, I have found that women come to me specifically for career advice, my expertise, leadership and my help to make things happen. They don’t complain, they don’t dump their emotions they don’t ask me how I feel other than to make sure I approve. This defer to leadership (as I call it) has been happening more and more recently (either from my continued awaking to RP or my ability to finally notice)

What made me think to bring this female communication between alpha (defer to leadership for help/decisions) and beta men (let me dump my feeling on you) was a co-worker I used to work with a lot looked out of sort and I made a joke about her being high.. and she almost emotionally broke down when she told me her brother recently died. She visibly choked it down and I changed the subject before she broke down. She was incredibly relieved. In a way, changing the subject gave her strength or at least a distraction. Since then she has tried to be more engaged with me and constantly asking for my approval of what she does. I find it interesting that blue pill men might have wanted to try and help by having her discuss her feelings or try to connect with her and talk about how awful he feels for her.

Another example is a girl I used to sleep with texted me after the election out of the blue about how distraught she was and how the world was going to end because Trump won. (She doesn’t know I prefer Trump to Hillary). In the ramblingly long text she even mentioned how angry and unstable her current boyfriend was over it. All I said back was, “Take a deep breath, its going to be fine.” From that point on she has been trying to re-engage me and always flirty. Its obvious to me she wasn’t looking for someone to have an emotional conversation with..(her distraught beta boyfriend could have handled that) she wanted someone to tell her she was freaking out and pull her back to earth.

Both of those situations in a blue pill world would have triggered the “lets explore how we feel” conversation, but really they didn’t want that.

I’ve written several essays about the difference in men and women’s communications priorities and the importance each sex places on particular aspects of communication. However, most of these simply outlined the dynamics. It’s no secret, even to Blue Pill men, that men and women communicate differently. Men place primary importance on the information or content of what is being communicated, while women put context, or how what’s being communicated makes them feel about the exchange as their primary importance.

This is actually one area of Red Pill awareness you’ll get the least amount of resistance from Blue Pill guys or the femosphere about. Women love to tell us how superior their communication skills are, or how they get so much more from sub-communications that men are largely ignorant of. The point of pride comes from the idea that women tend to communicate more “effectively” than men, because they utilizes non-verbal cues such as tone, emotion, and empathy whereas men tend to be more task-oriented, less talkative, and more isolated. Men have a more difficult time understanding emotions that are not explicitly verbalized, while women tend to intuit emotions and emotional cues. These differences explain why men and women sometimes have difficulty communicating and why men-to-men friendships look different from friendships among women.

The problem with all of this is that it presupposes that women’s communication is the ‘correct’ form while men’s is incorrect because it is more blunt and devoid of nuance. The measure of “effective” communication in a feminine-centric world is judged from a feminine-centric (emotional) metric, not how well information is transferred. There’s really nothing isolating about men’s capacity to communicate, it just doesn’t appeal to a social order that’s founded on what ought to be correct for the Feminine Imperative. As you might guess, a high importance is given to emotion and a capacity to emote in a feminine-primary social order. Thus, emotionalism becomes the benchmark for that order’s metric of “effective communication”.

I’m stressing this here because as western(izing) societies have effectively feminized men for the past 4-5 generations the majority of men (largely Beta) have adapted to learn, and default to, this context-first female form of communication. In spite of men’s neurological differences in communication, their Blue Pill conditioning teaches them that ‘effective’ communication is female, emotive, communication. Although they lack the hardware for it, men learn to alter their communication style to accommodate that of women’s because it is seen as a means to intimacy with women in feminine-primary society. Beta men, as part of Beta Game, are conditioned by the Blue Pill to reprogram themselves to identify with the feminine – a large part of that is learning to communicate as a woman communicates.

Boyfriends and Girlfriends

Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.

I wrote that as part of my posts on intergender friendships. Women get upset by that quote because it’s unflattering, but true. Blue Pill guys get upset because they see themselves in it and then seek to rationalize how their situation with their ‘girl’ friends is different. But what they both rarely want to confront is that Beta men communicate with women like women. And conversely, women communicate with Beta men in the same mode of communication they are comfortable with when communicating with their same-sex girl friends.

Most Blue Pill / Beta men are largely oblivious to the fact that their communication’s methods and priorities have been conditioned to have them subconsciously default to a feminine-primary, context (feeling)-first form of communicating with women. This is so engrained in Beta men’s personalities that few are ever aware that they do so. It’s just ‘how they are’, and few if any ever give an afterthought to how they communicate with women as women. Many a Beta guy gets very hostile when they have this pointed out to them because it conflicts with their distorted Blue Pill-defined concept of masculinity. So, if you tell a Beta, ‘you communicate like a woman’ the conditioned response then is to question the security of the masculinity of the guy pointing it out and he goes back to feeling good about himself for being evolved enough to communicate correctly – as a woman.

It’s when guys unplug and become Red Pill aware that they begin to understand this dynamic. Most Beta men’s feminine-primary communication mode makes them subconsciously indistinguishable from women’s ‘girlfriends’. I mentioned this in some past essays on intergender friendships, but what happens is that as part of men’s Blue Pill conditioning that convinces them to adopt a personality of passivity, equalism, sensitivity and identifying themselves with the feminine, in most respects they become a woman’s same-sex girl friend. This feminization of the Beta is confirmed for them when that Beta communicates in the same mode as her best girl friends. The appearance might be male, but the hindbrain registers female for her.

This context-primary form of communication is the most common among men (largely Beta) today so it’s literally what women are accustomed to when they interact with men. They become used to being deferred to, used to being communicated with in her own mode. This then sets the baseline for what women expect from men’s communication – they expect him to communicate like a same-sex friend – so when that mode becomes taxed or a guy slips back into his blunt, low-nuance content driven mode it’s naturally an attraction. No doubt, that guy will get called out for being a ‘typical dude’ and shamed for his incorrect form, but it is attractive not only for being a break from the feminized communication patterns she’s used to, but also because it implies that he’s his own mental point of origin. It communicates that he is confident enough not to care about accommodating her form of communication (feminine-primary).

One reason Amused Mastery is so effective is because it forces a woman to communicate on male terms. Amused Mastery implies a man actually has a mastery above that of the woman he interacts with. When a man employs Amused Mastery it registers in a woman’s hindbrain through his unapologetic insistence on communicating with her on his communicative terms.

You’re Not Listening

Women’s biggest complaint about men with regard to communication is that they don’t listen. The common Red Pill observation about this that women only come up with that gripe when men wont do what she tells him to, and that it’s about a Frame grab. That’s certainly true, and especially evident in relationships where a woman presumes her Frame is the dominant one, however there’s a bit more to this. ‘Men don’t listen’ is also a conflict in communication modes. Since men’s communication mode centers on content and information, we tend to filter out the background noise – and most of the background noise that comes about from intergender communication comes from exactly the emotional chaff that women are so proud of in their ‘correct’ form of communicating. Men intensely listen to content, what they filter is unimportant non-content and usually this amounts to the contextual delivery of what’s being communicated.

However, women do filter for that emotiveness, so once again when a man does listen to feelings and identifies with women expressing them women’s hindbrains associate that with a feminine (or feminized) character. Ergo, the association is that Beta men are ‘listeners’, which ultimately is anti-seductive for any man wanting to develop a woman as a romantic prospect. And thus, you become her girl friend.

The Alpha & Beta Communication

So, to Elooie’s point, yes there are communicative differences in the ways women will relate to men they perceive as Alpha and Beta. As you may have guessed, how a woman communicates with you is a very strong indicator of her sexual market value estimate of you. Going back again to Amused Mastery, if you are perceived as an authority of something a woman’s communicative mode will often shift to a more content specific (male) form of interacting. This is particularly so when her need dictates she solve an immediate problem. Women with pressing real-world problems will often confuse men they perceive as Beta by deferring to their particular expertise on whatever it is they believe will solve that problem.

A lot of Beta computer guys know what I’m talking about. A woman communicates with them in her own feels-first contextual mode when it’s all solipsistically about her personal problems, but let her iPhone or laptop malfunction and then she shifts to content driven communication. She does this to solve a pressing problem by shifting the mode of interaction to deferring to him. He registers this and defaults back to his content-driven communication (with not a little bit of pride that she recognizes his convenient expertise). Once the problem is resolved, she goes back to her mode of communication (feels-first) and shames him for being a typical guy if he doesn’t adjust back to her communicative frame.

Another scenario is what Elooie describes. Women who already have an Alpha impression of you will often begin an exchange in what she expects will be your male-centered way of interacting. In PUA terms you might call this a preset buying temperature, but when a woman is attracted to you she is expecting you to communicate as she expects a man will communicate. In fact this is an excellent Alpha Tell if you have the skill to recognize it. In the early stages of interacting with a woman you will notice that playful banter is almost always performed in men’s communicative mode. This is the mode an attracted woman is hoping you’ll insist on maintaining. In fact, I’d argue that most shit tests a woman delivers (at least the active shit tests) are issued in the hopes that you will pass them from within a male-centered communicative mode.

That’s not to say that men’s content-based communication leaves no room for wit or nuance – nothing entertains a woman more than a guy who ‘Just Gets It‘ but also knows how to communicate that he does get it. This is the intergender thrust, parry, riposte of Game. If a man defaults to being Mr. Sensitivity, self-conscious of his every response and reflexively communicates in a female-centered mode from the outset, he gets relegated to Beta status; only useful for convenient chores and emotional tampon duties.

I think it’s a really good exercise for newly Red Pill aware men to put on their Red Pill Lenses and really listen and watch how women interact with men and each other. Make mental notes about how you think a woman interprets the SMV of men as well as the women she communicates with. Watch for the shift in communication modes, see if you can predict the shift when a woman talks with a man you think is Beta and then with a man you think she perceives as Alpha. It’s really not that hard to guess. In fact, we’re really preprogrammed to acknowledge it even in a Blue Pill sense, but with Red Pill awareness it’s educational and entertaining.

Once you get a good understanding of how this communicative interplay shifts according to personality, need, environment and attraction you’ll get a better grasp of the message a woman’s medium is telling you personally. Then, learn to pull your head out of a female mode of communicating and insist on her coming into your mode of communicating. This will be an essential part of establishing your dominant Frame.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

409 comments on “Alpha-Beta Communication Modes

  1. I also noted that YaReally’s constant reminders of social media and 2016 constant validations for female sexual strategy (hide the vagina) sending him back to the same place he was 6 years earlier in Game. Like he had been running in place for 6 years in a bid to get better at inter-sexual strategy (sexual selection by men and women). The more things change, the more they stay the same because as the different players get better, the stakes or the skills needed to take the stakes are always at a higher level over time, but still giving the impression that everything is the same place like the Alice in Wonderland fast romp she had with the Red Queen.

    The Red Queen hypothesis is an evolutionary hypothesis which proposes that organisms must constantly adapt, evolve, and proliferate not merely to gain reproductive advantage, but also simply to survive while pitted against ever-evolving opposing organisms in an ever-changing environment.

  2. Sorry about the IB spam. I just updated WordPress. It’s still the same broken record though. It’s funny how Grammy posts like a sailor on shore-leave here, but sounds like a living saint on her own blog.

    Same shit. Should I ban her again?

  3. “Should I ban her again?”

    Yes.

    Reason: It is just plain spam with no attempt to engage in red pill intercourse. She never had, never will. She’s no fun, does not really engage and does not add value.

    What’s the downside to banning her again? Answer: None whatsoever.

  4. @SJF @all

    Field Report of more Red Pill validation with girl-talk interpretation and some understanding and growth

    Was at a country bar last night and saw a couple whom I’m friends with…last time I saw them I was freaked out about her calling me on my land line and the possibility of Mrs. Gamer picking up and creating a shit storm…I wasn’t very nice to the girl because I was in CYA mode and the girl got very annoyed with me…

    first, I shouldn’t worry about Mrs. Gamer creating a shit storm just because one of my girl friends called me on my land line or cell…I created this situation by letting Mrs. Gamer bully me…no more…I’ve been worrying too much what she thinks…

    second, only stuff that might appear on the jumbotron that a court might interpret as a evidence of guilt is of concern…that doesn’t include audible phone convos…it does include social media…

    third, a friend of mine had said that the girl would be, at best, politely friendly, dancing maybe one dance with me, and might even ignore me. At the club, the girl greeted me loudly and warmly and with a falling tone (starting high and indicating excitement) by asking me “Where have you been?” Hamsterlation: “I’ve missed you.” She asked me to dance twice and I asked her once and she was “in the moment” after one particular dance that she loves…her husband was there, so she behaved herself…later, she grabbed my head…I had asked her to draw a lip on my cheek with her lip gloss brush, but instead she opted for the bio-applicator, lol…yeah, she kissed me right in front of her husband…I didn’t chat with her much, instead talking mostly with her husband…

    …one of her girl friends who doesn’t know me and doesn’t like me, lol, tried to pull her away when I was chatting with her, but my friend wouldn’t go with her

    …why does this girl like me?

    …I dance with her and make her feel good

    …I’ve opened up to her about some personal stuff

    …I’m friendly with her husband and dance with her friends

    …I make her dance better and she likes to look good on the dance floor

    …I’m fun and a little edgy (e.g., after I saw the girl dancing with her husband, I teased her about cheating on me…she had previously told me that she would only dance with me…then I complimented her husband on his dancing)…and smooth, sometimes, lol

    …I told the girl that Santa had told me to give her something and I gave her the “Lumps of Coal” candy…she got annoyed and wouldn’t take them, so I gave them to her husband

    …push/pull…works on both men and women, but better on women…men need more pull

    …one of my friend had been told that some girls think that I’m creepy…they are older and don’t know me…I suspect intrigue based on 1) envy and 2) me enforcing my boundaries, which I tend to do in a dickish (and maybe fun) way

    …I need to work on reaching out a bit more to people who act like I’m creepy and maybe not be so dickish when I’m enforcing my boundaries

  5. SJF: “Rollo, I’m surprised at your restraint in the Old Wise Guy vs. the PUA debates with YaReally in the past. PUA Game is a complement to Red Pill Awareness deductive reasoning. And there is nothing wrong with it (except for you know what…) By the Ridley book took all the deduction out of the equation red pill equation and made it pretty much inductive reasoning.”

    Ya lived in “motte and bailey” fallacy land.
    The Motte and Bailey doctrine originated in a critique of post modernism by Nicholas Shackel.
    Post-modernists sometimes say things like “reality is socially constructed”. Of course to a degree that is an uncontroversially correct statement. We don’t experience the world directly, but through the or own perception, which has implicit prejudices to our society.

    Essentially the motte bailey fallacy is when you make an absurd controversial statement. Somebody challenges you, you claim you were just making an obvious, uncontroversial statement, so you are clearly right and they are silly for challenging you. Then when the argument is over you go back to making the absurd, controversial statement.

  6. I understand why Rollo doesn’t ban women, and they can actually be quite amusing when they storm in here to tear apart an article, only to exemplify everything in it.

    And Liz only gets irritating once in a while.

    But that one deserved the application of a prophylactic due to her behaviour on other boards. She was a known pathogen.

  7. Liz, and others, are welcome guests at my blog but Rollo and I ain’t doing the same kind of thing.

    And I ban chicks who cause problems, try to rebuild the mound etc

  8. @ASDgamer

    You perhaps should put such Field Reports in the Field Report section. Hell, you trying to give Mersonia a stroke. (He’s very sensitive to OMG circle jerks). But at the risk of giving OMG advice and boring every one here, I’ll give it a shot. This is just my interpretation of your field report. It is just my objective observations from my perch.

    You are trying too hard, over gaming the dancer girl. You had her originally at the word go.

    “Creepy” is code word for trying too hard to get a girl while others are watching and judging it as such. The target girl doesn’t mind, it is perfect fodder for her attention seeking (so you are not over gaming her, just giving the perception to everyone else).

    Even though you took two steps backward in the relationship, you still want to have OI and keep the Abundance Mentality. To do otherwise would be to take another step backward. There’s a big crowd there and they have eyes on you sniping for one girl. Fake like you are not.

    The lump of coal was too much push when it was time to pull in presents giving.

    What did she originally call you about at home on the land line? What could have put you in a compromising position?

    How did your flinching behavior square with:

    Franco: “The Alpha attitude is the attitude you need to assume to be attractive to women to the maximum level. The attitude is this:
    “In words, actions and omissions I speak, move and behave in such a way that I never ask for forgiveness about my personality and my sexual desire as a male. I am an impudent individual.”

    “I created this situation by letting Mrs. Gamer bully me…no more…I’ve been worrying too much what she thinks…

    Dealing with Mrs. Gamer: This is why you want to include Mrs. Gamer in all of the reindeer games. She needs to interact with other attractive males, while you interact with attractive females in real time in the field. It is just slightly too much dread for her. She reacted normally. It is your job not to merely pass her shit tests, but utilize them to your advantage.
    This situation would be a good time to use a few of the Laws of Power. (Like #3, #4, #5, #6, #9, #11, #12, #13, and #14). LOL, that’s a few but they all apply here in this situ.

    https://www.tke.org/files/file/The_48_Laws_of_Power.pdf

    Don’t defend, excuse, explain or rationalize your behaviors (Robert Glover’s DEERing).
    Use assertiveness techniques of Fogging, Broken Record, Negative Inquiry and Negative Assertion.See here under techniques, although in this wiki, the actual way to use these techniques is not actually detailed well. But they are in the WISNIFG book by Manuel Smith.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

    This letting of Mrs. Gamer in on all the reindeer games (even if you have subterfuge on the side) goes back to the ending of Practical Female Psychology book with South and Franco authors:

    (I used up my quota of links, so this is a repeat C&P)

    Maintaining an appropriate level of attraction within the relationship is important. Some of the ways in which the authors of this book maintain attraction with our mates are:

    • Regular, social interaction with men who are attractive to women. Uncalibrated and unattractive men induce the risk of socially awkward situations and won’t help you to mature into a more attractive man.

    • Clear demonstration of physical leadership in our daily lives. We are each living our lives in a manner congruent with our beliefs, with gusto and without apology.

    • Regular, social interaction with other attractive females. Women are social creatures, and will derive emotional satisfaction from being with a man capable of being with a variety of women.

    Normal, social interactions with attractive women are critical for several reasons. Within the hothouse of a relationship, interactions between men and women can assume bizarre and ultimately unhealthy forms without socially calibrating experiences with normal, healthy women outside the relationship. Direct, personal feedback from women allows us to calibrate our behavior within the relationship. When we are passing tests thrown by women outside the relationship, we have a baseline for our own behavior inside the relationship. For those of you who enjoy jealous women (we do not), this could inspire a certain amount of jealously, which also increases attraction, so calibrate accordingly.

    Men, note well: encourage your woman to maintain normal, regular social interaction with males of her acquaintance. If you are the man of her dreams, her Prince, you have nothing to fear.

    So let Mr.S Gamer get in on some validation and don’t apologize for you attracting other attractive women.

    Back to real time in the field:

    Get that bio applied lipstick kiss on the cheek (asking her to draw it on was lame and a beta move). Married wild girls think it’s funny to lay it on your cheek with thier lips. And if you don’t flinch at all, then you are keeping in alpha frame. But once her husband and others see it (because the Applicator wants others to see it, because it is ostentatious and gives her DHV), then wipe it off in front of the group with a napkin. Don’t keep it on, because then that is trying to hard for you to DHV. (This same scenario happen to me at a Christmas party. I field tested it, and the wipe-it-off move went over well. It showed I was in my Frame, and the kisser was lower SMV than my wife, not that that matters, I’m just humblebragging and saying it was field tested.)

    “…one of her girl friends who doesn’t know me and doesn’t like me, lol, tried to pull her away when I was chatting with her, but my friend wouldn’t go with her.”

    You know what you have to do here. Engage and charm the cockblocker. Before she does the cockblocking, or in real time calibrating on the fly.

    “…I need to work on reaching out a bit more to people who act like I’m creepy and maybe not be so dickish when I’m enforcing my boundaries.”

    Try the old Law # 12 trick here:

    Law 12: Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm your Victim

    One sincere and honest move will cover over dozens of dishonest ones. Open-hearted gestures of honesty and generosity bring down the guard of even the most suspicious people. Once your selective honesty opens a hole in their armor, you can deceive and manipulate them at will. A timely gift – a Trojan horse – will serve the same purpose.

    (Another reminder to engage with the cockblockers (or the target). Go and use real or fake selective honesty with them.)

  9. @ chuepez

    Look up ” Ethiopian ” in the bible then look up the meaning, specifically the Greek translation.

  10. @anon

    YaReally’s Motte and Bailey and something that Rollo had to disagree with was that looks don’t matter, wealth doesn’t matter, status doesn’t matter. (And it doesn’t for short term lays, but there is the rest of life on the hedonic treadmill). “Game is every thing, stop thinking about everything else”. Not to discount that Apex game is great, but he was using an apex fallacy to discount the value of the huge relative human pre-frontal cortex and crucial subcortical functions in most men when engaging in the sexual selection process. Paradoxically good Game is scheming and humans will scheme uber alles. They scheme with and against everyone in their social group (as well as any other group, work, etc.).

    The problem was in translating this into help for the non-apex gamer. External game process was touted with discounting personal self improvement including mindset and mastery over self. (let alone accounting for the fact that some men want children at some point, although some don’t)

    You can’t just have good game without intelligence, sense of humor, creativity, and an interesting personality as well as wealth and beauty (youth, figure, and face–for both men and women). Not that YaReally was discounting these features, because all Apex Gamer’s acquire these. But sometimes a guys also need to get these from non-Game sources (those vague sources the OMG’s keep harping about). And sometimes they are un-achievable by certain guys.

    Both men and women are super-selective after a while. More so beyond short term relationships. Witness Rollo’s second book, schedules of mating and all…..

    Excerpt from The Red Queen about the intellectual chess game:

    But women are highly selective about the men with whom they mate: So indeed are men: True, they are easily persuaded to go to bed with beautiful young women— but that is exactly the point: Most women are neither young nor beautiful, nor are they trying to seduce strange men: It is hard to overemphasize how unusual humans are in this respect: Males in some monogamous bird species such as pigeons and doves” do take care to select a female carefully, but in many other birds, the males are happy to have a fling with any passing female, as the evidence of sperm competition theory has demonstrated (chapter 7). Although he may prefer variety more than females do, man is a highly sexually selective male as males go: Selectivity by one or the other sex is the prerequisite of sexual selection. And as I have argued in previous chapters, it is more than that. It is the almost invariant predictor of sexual selection: Fisher ‘s runaway process for sexy sons and Zahavi-Hamilton ‘s Good-genes effect simply cannot be avoided once one or the other sex is being selective. So we should actually expect some exaggeration of some feature or other in :man as a simple consequence of sexual selection.”

    In the end, it’s not that good PUA game will trump everything, there has to be value in either mate, especially when there are children down the road for either. That is when sexual selection difficulty for humans gets turned up to 11. At that point, Ridley asserts:

    Hominid males and females became satisfied with nothing less than psychologically brilliant, fascinating, articulate, entertaining companions. Sexual selection can complicate rather than assist the problems of survival. Women need to have the creativity and variety of Scheherezade (Scheherezade effect) to keep their husband around for years–men need the Dionysus effect to do the same (dance, music, intoxication, and seduction). Larger brains require longer period of maturation in the offspring, thus long-term bonds are required.

  11. @insanitybytes22
    “I chide him for believing he can teach masculinity, completely devoid of any virtues, faith, hope, love, all the things that give men their beauty, their worth and value in the world. Without these things, you’ve got nothing but an empty, broken praxeology, worshiping the 16 points of poon.”

    You are looking at attraction as we experience it — a sublime emotion, which can be pieced into a noble philosophy. But the reality of attraction is biological. I did not realize this until I started injecting testosterone (for whatever reason, I am a man who does not make enough on his own). Women immediately began responding favorably to the personality changes. And once I put on an additional 20 lbs of muscle, they reacted to that as well. It is frankly, shocking how much a single molecule can change how people feel about you.

    Rollo is just trying to describe the dynamics of sexual strategy in a way that is potentially helpful to men. I think he does veer into ideology more than he realizes (as do we all), but his purpose definitely has merit.

    To the subject at hand — modern society does not fully appreciate men’s manner of communication. We are more blunt, to the point, without spending too much time on people’s feelings. You will often hear that women are better at collaborating towards a common goal. The truth is that men are fantastic at this. But while men tend to be more goal-oriented, all women see is communication that is blunt and sometimes uncivil, which they find viscerally upsetting.

    By men’s manner of communication alone, women will deem our efforts at collaboration a failure. But what they don’t really understand is that men will trade harsh words one minute, then be back to emotional baseline the next. Where women see failure, men will see success, assuming the goal was reached.

    We could say that men are emotionally obtuse, when compared with women. Or we could say that men are emotionally resilient, when compared to women. From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that men would be more resilient (think of the vulnerability and dependency of a woman-and-child, before civilization) And just looking at the psychological effects of administering hormones, we can see this in action. If you talk to the doctors who administer male and female hormones to transgendered individuals, they will describe the powerful antidepressant effects that women will experience when they take testosterone. But for the men robbed of their testosterone, and administered estrogen, the emotional effects can be pretty rough.

    1. Jesus of Nazareth, ministry, age 33

      Sidhartha Guatama (the Buddha), ministry, 35

      The prophet Muhammad, visited by angel Gabriel, 40

      Krishna, most popular incarnation, age 35

      Rollo Tomassi, men’s SMV peak, 35-38 years old.

      Coincidence?

  12. Now that you go mention it over and over and over I have no recollection of the time between 35 and 38. Pretty much at all. I don’t revel in it. I don’t have any feelings about it. I wish some red pill brother would have tapped me on the shoulder back then @ age 38 and said: “SJF, I just want to validate all that you are doing these last three years”, cause that never happened ever.

    (BTW, as an aside, some of my good vibes these days come from validating my red pill buddies choices they are making on on fly these days. I love the feeling of supporting them in their choices. And I also really like the fact that I don’t associate with blue pill AFC’s, nor the unhappy and the unlucky men that I may pass by. It makes my life so much cleaner. I have lots of social friends in my UMC milieu that are non-declared Blue or Red pill, but most everyone has agency around me, appearances-wise.)

    You know why? I was at my peak and on the top of the world and had very few stressors. I can’t remember any thing bad happening. Or it being hard. Go figure. I was on auto pilot and I had no guards up. Perfect job, wonderful kids, excellent wife, excellent results from my having performed well up till then. Any burden of performance hurdles felt like they were about two inches high off the ground.

    Even though the plural of anecdote is not data, I’m going to have to support the graph.

    Despite the miserable representation of our old wives SMV on that graph. (Beauty is still a triad of youth, figure and face. Heh two out of three doesn’t rank down in the 2’s and good character, good mother and radiance still has value.) I think the SMV for women at age fifty has to do with in the dating market (getting with a new girl), not the old wives that you spent 20 to 25 years with and they held up their end of the commitment bargain. SMV is not the same as LTR or sustained MMV (marriage value).

  13. “SMV is not the same as LTR or sustained MMV (marriage value).”

    There are some things that are priceless. Note that word means what it says. Not “valuable,” but “without price.”

    The Ashmolean Museum’s Stradivarius is priceless.
    Ralph Lauren’s Bugatti is priceless.
    The Hope Diamond is priceless.

    They are merely presumed to be valuable (although there is a good deal of merit to the presumption, as these items are also known to be particularly desirable to people with a lot of money).

    I have some priceless objects as well, although I presume they are of little value to people other than myself.

    What all of these things have in common: a)they are unique, b) their price has not been established because they have not recently, or never have been, offered for sale.

    Their price is unknown. Any talk about their monetary value is speculation. They are priceless.

    Market value is determined by . . . the market.

  14. @kfg
    Build a better clovis point long enough … Chrysler Building. That’s pretty much what modern civilization is. It just happens to fall within men’s evolved role. Also the building of complex social organization has been thanks largely to the leadership acumen of men.

    All the sexy stuff goes to men. Not that anyone planned it that way…

  15. “…..as these items are also known to be particularly desirable to people with a lot of money.

    I have some priceless objects as well, although I presume they are of little value to people other than myself.”

    Precisely.

    Something we can count on KFG for: preciseness.

    But I might change “people with a lot of money” to “people that can discern high value for their own purpose, because they happen to be discerning and the value added over cost is high”.

    I’m not writing a prescription for others.

  16. “The problem with all of this is that it presupposes that women’s communication is the ‘correct’ form while men’s is incorrect because it is more blunt and devoid of nuance. The measure of “effective” communication in a feminine-centric world is judged from a feminine-centric (emotional) metric, not how well information is transferred.”

    Well said…

    As I always say…..Women talk, men communicate.😎

  17. “As you might guess, a high importance is given to emotion and a capacity to emote in a feminine-primary social order. Thus, emotionalism becomes the benchmark for that order’s metric of “effective communication.”

    The prioritizing of fem-centric communication imperative is probably what has led to the increase in SJW-ism (?), regressivism, and the decline of scholarship & objectivism in universities in the west and soon the world over…not to mention identity politics especially when it comes to the media.

  18. @Sentient – Re the small town, difficult to explain without lots of details, but essentially:

    I had a “standard” job in the Big City. High end professional job, Ivy League education, blah blah. Didn’t like the long term career path, wanted to try something entrepreneurial but vaguely related (I started a business in college and sold it in grad school so had some experience already – it didn’t make me rich but it funded my year travelling after grad school).

    So I did, about 4-5 years ago. It involved moving here to the small town. Funnily enough the career/work side has gone really well, but the longer I’m here, the more I realized that I hate living here and want to move back (and I don’t even enjoy the work much day-to-day, although it is going well).

    Only decided to move back to Big City in the last year or so (before that was establishing myself here in small town, and then looking for hybrid alternatives to divide my time etc).

    Question is how to do it. I *could* just drop everything I’ve done here and move back next week and go back to my old job (or a very similar one). But it will mean (a) going back at my old level – my contemporaries have moved on/up; (b) While I like the job and the people and the money, I don’t like the long term career path and insane hours/lack of flexibility as I get older; (c) It will mean wasting all the work and effort I’ve put in over the last few years. Like it never happened.

    None of those things is appealing, but if I get sufficiently sick of this place, I may do that.

    The alternative is to do something unusual and essentially create a path of my own. This involves leveraging and combining my experience at my old job and my current gig into something new and entrepreneurial – if I can pull it off, I’ll be making good money and have all the flexibility and autonomy I want, without terrible hours. And I’ll be based in the Big City with some trips to the small town (or none, depending on how things progress).

    My career background (after I quit my old job) is very unusual and no one has anything exactly like it. So I’ve got some ideas for leveraging that but I’m basically creating the market for “me”. Everyone TELLS me it’s a great idea.

    But in terms of actually happening it’s going slow. I’ve only started going in this direction in the last year and particularly the last 6-8 months. If you remember I posted asking for advice about going to a big 4 day conference a few months ago, related to breaking into a new field? That was around when I started my “pivot” seriously. I’ve been slowly building on people I met at the conference and others and building relationships, but gaining visibility in a new career space takes time and while it’s not TOO difficult to score meetings with people, it’s not that easy for me to add value to people who are already established (I can do it – for eg, recently and unexpectedly manage to introduce someone who could really help me to another guy he wanted to meet which was solid value-add – but it is slow).

    (As an aside btw, another reason my Game probably doesn’t go well in the Small Town is that I think on some level most people I meet can pick up on my subcomms that I dislike living here and am basically enduring it till I move back – that’s why I almost light up when I go back to the Big City and most of my friends are there etc).

    So anyway, the plan is to continue with the pivot and hopefully flip back to the Big City by Summer 2019, and if I can’t transition and the pivot doesn’t work out, I’ll go back to my old job (or ANY job) by 2020 latest in the Big City.

    Seems like an awful long time to wait and live for the 4 months/year I do in the Big City but I can’t think of any other way to move that doesn’t completely waste all the work I’ve invested in the last few years.

  19. this post reminds me a bit too much about my own office environment. I’ve been in meetings where the female manager and majority of workers were female, and we just had a meeting where 15 minutes were spent on female subcoms of nuance venting frustrations about schedules. the female manager lets this go on despite it coming out of her budget. I just sit in these meetings making notes on what I need to do at home or for other projects until we get back on point to actually do something instead of emoting. I get paid by the hour, so it’s not like I lost anything, but I also didn’t do anything to make money for the company either. at work I resist being turned into a “work-husband” by the office ladies. they want to bring me their feelings, but I won’t engage like that at all with them. for some reason they keep coming back to me for more.

  20. @SJF
    think the SMV for women at age fifty has to do with in the dating market (getting with a new girl), not the old wives that you spent 20 to 25 years with and they held up their end of the commitment bargain.

    As a 57yo OSG, I’ve seen a fair share of hot 50+yo’s on the dating market. If they’ve controlled their weight, taken care of their skin, avoided smoking, and exercised a bit they are indefinably interesting. However, the excess baggage and sense of entitlement are present, which is probably why they are on the dating market at that age.

  21. LOL I live in one of them there super zip codes, full of old money

    There is no shortage of professional wives who have aged very well and there is no shortage of men with very well aged wives and side pieces

  22. “Rollo Tomassi, men’s SMV peak, 35-38 years old.

    Coincidence?”

    I think you’re reaching. LOL.
    There is a much more recent example of a charismatic religious figurehead who obtained millions of followers, so enamored with the man that many were crushed to death by masses at his funeral.
    Ayatollah Khomeini. He was in his seventies when he came to power (died in his eighties).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k7mpnPJWDo

    Fwiw, If you asked my spouse his “best year”, that would be whatever the current year is. My Dad said 50 was the best.

  23. @kfg
    “Men’s vs. Women’s collaborative skills:”
    “Where it all leads:”

    World history, the short course.

  24. Legit

    All women, at all stages are attracted to all alphas. One girl might prefer classic business alpha over bad boy alpha or some such but they all get wet over alphas

    They are much more picky about betas.

  25. @Kobayashi
    Your comments have been quite thpught provoking for me. Thanks bro.

    The interesting thing about this whole thing is that betas make money to take care of girls ((daughters (real or cucked)) so alphas can come and inject their sperm in to them. Hahahaaaaa…

  26. Ton All women, at all stages are attracted to all alphas. One girl might prefer classic business alpha over bad boy alpha or some such but they all get wet over alphas

    The allure of the Alpha Triad – dynamic, passionate and authentic…

    There is no shortage of professional wives who have aged very well and there is no shortage of men with very well aged wives and side pieces

    Concur… same in everyone I regularly travel through… Shit my two clubs are a potpourri of of former pageant and sorority girls keeping it tight at the upper range, yummy mummies in the middle – freshly worked off baby weight with all their free time – and a genetic legacy of a few generations of good looking folks (i.e. money) breeding coming up the ranks at the lower age range… a gaggle of thin hot 18YO blondes you say? Yeah every day at the pool… we wont discuss volleyball practice…

    And the odd Trophy Wife (aka wife number 2) tossed in for the 58YO dudes…

    Very pleasant viewing…

  27. @Boxcar

    Excellent point about men’s rough communication not hindering cooperation…in fact, rough communication generally assists our cooperation.

    Rough communication assists our engagement with one another. (Oh, yeah, Boxcar, fuck off, lol). Humor and emotional engagement often follow rough communication.

    Women use rough communication as a push, while men use it as both a pull AND a push.

    We men also tend to not live in our emotions, so we can set aside feelings of annoyance or anger to accomplish a task. Women don’t do that very well.

  28. Culum

    sounds like a good plan… and a good demonstration of what pursuing The Platinum Rule is like… not immediate gratification, but always working towards the end game. Just don’t get caught in the sunk cost trap if you experience the creeping frog boil of delay… at a certain point you need to just jump. Dynamic coming first in the Alpha Triad for a reason and all…

    Good luck.

    PS – I did something like this… after 13 years in one biz, jumped into a second and had to start over…

  29. “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.”

    “A wise man has great power, and a man of knowledge increases strength. For waging war you need guidance, and for victory many advisers.”

  30. @Rollo

    Fuck, the Father of Many Nations, Abraham, was 90 y.o. when he started having a family and going into the livestock biz.

    Then there’s ol’ Noah, who ventured into shipbuilding at 600 y.o. We are all descended from Noah.

  31. “Jesus of Nazareth, ministry, age 33 Sidhartha Guatama (the Buddha), ministry, 35
    The prophet Muhammad, visited by angel Gabriel, 40 Krishna, most popular incarnation, age 35
    Rollo Tomassi, men’s SMV peak, 35-38 years old. Coincidence?”

    Coincidence, yes, and also complete rubbish. My husband has simply gotten more and more attractive over the years, kind of like whiskey aging in a barrel or a good cheese waiting to ripen. Men in their 30’s are often unrefined, childish, and totally self absorbed. There is very little there to be attracted to. Perhaps part of the reason Jesus was so charismatic and drew crowds was because he wasn’t like that at all and it was that uncommon quality that drew people to Him. Buddha, Krishna, Mohammad, all behaved much like 30 year old men do. Buddha abandoned his wife and child to go “find himself.”

    Jesus Christ is the only one who laid down His life for love. Men too, the good ones, have that same quality within them, a willingness to lay down their own life protecting those they love. That kind of sacrificial love is what gives all of us our worth and value.

  32. Stuck in a rut?

    what to do… what to do….

    “After nearly 25 years in the advertising business, I found myself in desperate need of change. No matter how “successful” I was, or how great things seemed from the outside, true success—and my own happiness— continued to elude me. Sure, I had all the spoils of a successful career, but the further I progressed professionally, the further I was moving away from my own fulfillment. I guess it’s just the nature of the beast—the more successful you become at what you do for a living, the further away you get from the thing that inspired you to do it in the first place.

    So here I was, at 44 years old—I was healthy, had a beautiful family, an amazing home; a bunch of cars (and even more guitars), and still, with all of that, was miserable. I (and everyone around me) knew something needed to change, and it didn’t take a rocket scientist to see that it was work that was making me feel this way.

    But what was I supposed to do? I was an ad guy—I had always been an ad guy—wasn’t I supposed to always be an ad guy?

    http://www.waltgracevintage.com/about-us

    Not a bad way to make a living… if you’re into this kind of thing…

    https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/yzCAL4Wj7jooGNiq5AtGCw/o.jpg

    But when is it the right time to pursue the Platinum Rule and a DPA life?

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/69/c2/14/69c214ed1c853a67b4c63a7bbeb8cb3e.jpg

    Tunney again…

  33. @cheupez

    You’re being totally unfair to IB…she worked in the galleys for love of Arius…then she worked in the mines for love of Spartacus…need I mention Marcus Antonius, Julius Caesar, and the rest of the ancient cock carousel?

  34. @Sentient: “… if you’re into this kind of thing…”

    Don’t like the color on that 356. Don’t much care for orange instruments either. Amber is nice, but not with black.

    So I’m very happy just sitting here in my mud hut with my steel wheel skateboard and rusty tin whistle. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

  35. insanitybytes’ comments just remind me of my religious upbringing, that was simultaneous with all the physical and emotional and verbal abuse I went through that shattered my self esteem.

    I feel like only people with low self esteem even think of the phrase “self esteem.” When your self esteem is good, the concept of it ceases to exist and you simply act on the Platinum Rule.

    But all the religious tripe…that has done major damage to me. As I read IB’s comments I find myself remembering ways of how I used to feel: that I should self-sacrifice, that other people’s lives were more important than mine, and that the best thing I could do with my life would be to martyr myself and help other people at my own expense, in whatever way possible. And that if I didn’t do that, it meant I was worthless, or WORSE than worthless. Hating myself was like a form of prayer, some kind of sacrificial offering to this distorted, self-effacing ideology of religion.

    Going to church for a funeral yesterday brought a lot of that back too. It was just bizarre.

    Rollo’s mentioned before how the FI has infiltrated Christianity, which of course only makes it that much worse.

    F.W. Robertson was a preacher I used to read sermons by. I loved his writing. But if you look at his actual life that transpired, he was stuck in a marriage he was completely unhappy with, was in complete denial and repression of his natural sexual instincts as a man, and suffered for it his whole life. His almost-love affair with another woman was just evidence of how thoroughly Blue Pill he was (he had her way up on a pedestal).

    His biography is pretty interesting if not pretty depressing. And also enlightening considering he preached in the mid 1800’s, which is when I’ve heard claims that feminism started to come into prominence in some forms. In some of his sermons he certainly puts women on a pedestal, and uses Jesus’ life as an example, citing any and all women that took care of him or showed him any kind of concern, the religious woo coinciding with a Blue Pill ideology quite perfectly. I feel like some of his sermons are like historical documentation of some of the roots of feminism and proof of how early it began to permeate through society and culture.

    He had a tremendous amount of faith and was a brilliant thinker and speaker, and had the rare ability to see beyond the literals of religion into the broader, more general, philosphical applications of it.

    But he was trapped in Blue Pill thinking and was so deep in suppression and repression of his own desires he didn’t seem like he truly knew who he was. And of course through all this, and his eventual illness that took his life, he felt desperately lonely and unappreciated despite his tremendous success as a preacher, including the respect he garnered from it.

  36. There’s a HUGE difference between “reformed” religious women who were cock carousel sluts in their prime, and religious men who have been incel for 20+ years.

    Big difference between having your fun, living it up in your party years until you feel like your pussy is going to break in half from all the dick it’s been stuffed with, and then exploiting the forgiveness ideology in Christianity to be “born again” or “reform” yourself, and then espouse the religious ideology, and make it sound like your life is some kind of miracle, or proof of God’s “good grace,” or salvation in Jesus, or the holy Chupacabra in the sky, or whatever the fuck….

    …and being absolutely fucking miserable your entire life, self-effacing from day 1 because that’s what you were taught was “right,” and sticking to the religious ideology after a lifetime of feeling like shit and never actually having fun and enjoying yourself.

    There is no “reformation” there, just being a husk of a human being from day 1 that’s a self-effacing, barely breathing embodiment of religious ideology planted by someone else.

    Women eat that shit up, too. They LOVE the story, the adventure….”I was once a slut, but now I’m found.”

    And then spout off about how great religion is, and how we ALL need to be saved, as they preach to people who have never experienced 1 MILLIONTH of the enjoyment that they themselves have had in life.

    “Isn’t this great? I fucked 500 guys and aborted 30 babies and abandoned my husband and kids but I found Jesus and now my conscience is crystal clear.”

    And then write a book about it that will probably become an NY Times bestseller.

    Anyway, it’s hard for me to tell how much of my issues with religion and Christianity in particular are because of the actual religion, or what it’s become due to the cultural influence of the FI. By the time I was born the FI had already thoroughly penetrated Christianity with its gigantic strap-on of feminine justice. With which it proceeded to thrust until actual testicles began to form on its loins.

    To which I only have one thing to say:

  37. “I feel like only people with low self esteem even think of the phrase “self esteem.” When your self esteem is good, the concept of it ceases to exist and you simply act on the Platinum Rule.”

    It don’t mean a thing if you ain’t got that swing.

  38. I think the SMV for women at age fifty has to do with in the dating market (getting with a new girl), not the old wives that you spent 20 to 25 years with and they held up their end of the commitment bargain. SMV is not the same as LTR or sustained MMV (marriage value).

    Yes. Two different things. The SMV issue is what the wife would be facing if she were to divorce — the mating market. It’s not great for women of 50. The tippity top of them, looks wise (think level of super-toned 50 yo actresses and models), can snag guys for relationships who are older, divorced and have some issues in the range of 55-65. The best guys in their own age range of 50-55 will be with women who are younger, quite easily. Of course, the tippity top at 50 can range down to around 40 or so for sex, but not for relationships. The woman of this age who is reasonably well-maintained but not tippity top is in big trouble in the relationship market.

    The value of the same woman in a marriage where you have been married to her for 25 years is a completely different thing.

  39. Novaseeker
    The value of the same woman in a marriage where you have been married to her for 25 years is a completely different thing.

    There is a certain amount of sunk cost fallacy at work. Last week I aas talking with a couple of real estate pros, and the classic issue of overpricing houses came up. Realtors constantly have to work with people who put a lot of time, effort and money into customizing a home, who know what it should be worth. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees – that garden hot tub in the pool room may have cost a bunch of bucks to install, what with the waterffall surround and the custom marble pool cue rack, but the market disagrees with Joe Fancypants. Similarly, an egotistical married man in late middle age with a good set of Wife Goggles may well insist that his l’il’ darlin’ looks just as good ‘n hot in her riding pants or tennis clothes now as she did 30 years ago, but the market would offer a different opinion. One obvious danger lies in the trap of her solipsism – if she believes at 50 that she’s just as hot as she was at 25 and can get another man with a finger snap, then she’s at risk for the full Eat, Betray, Luv sequence.

    The market is the clearing house. In the world of SMV and MMV, the field – whatever one may describe it as, from nightclub to church social to counry club – is also a clearing house. Walk into any church of any denomination, and odds are you will find at least one woman over 50 who is divorced and can’t quite fathom why she doesn’t have male attention like she used to. Ditto “the club”, ditto the country club, whatever – men are visual, and we respond that way, we are generally not fond of gratuitous conflict in our home, and we’ll avoid contentious women. Rollo’s SMV curve for women incorporates many factors, but looks and temperment are surely two of them.

    Women should be grateful for Wife Goggles, but they should also not take them for granted.
    Of course, I’m expecting women to be rational when I make such a statement. Silly me…

  40. As an aside, this particular topic – the difference between how women choose to communicate with men depending on the women’s perception of alpha / beta status – is a good litmus test. Naturally women are experts on everything, especially other women and men, so some girlies are going to be drawn to this topic like a moth to a candle flame. If nothing else, there’s ant-mound rebuilding to be done.

    The rich, sweet irony is obvious: they prove the point.

  41. No matter how good looking a woman is, there’s probably some other man who is totally, utterly, completely tired of her shit…

  42. Sentient
    Good looking women at all ages are in demand.

    Full stop.

    Oh, yeah!
    Not only that; houses are always a great investment, and stocks always go up in the long run.
    Heh.

  43. “There is a certain amount of sunk cost fallacy at work.”

    There or may or may not be a sunk cost fallacy at work. That sentence is a premise. It may or may not be an accurate premise.

    “Good looking women at all ages have value.” Face, figure and youth.

    Beyond that, Novaseeker points out is that there is intrinsic value in her after fucking her. Sunk cost fallacy, pedestalization, and Blue Pill leanings are connotative assertions for a man’s motives. An objective assessment of a red pill guy can denote her value. Good looking and good value women are the goal. You can’t always get what you want, but that is the objective. And when that is in hand, you might want to lead the LTR down a powerful path. When faced with capitalizing on that path, you might just want to take it, rather than lay down and let things happen.

    And if you reverse engineer that paradigm, you have a red pill path. And then you wonder why Sentient posts pictures of Steve Lyons. He has a purpose in mind.

  44. ” . . . that garden hot tub in the pool room may have cost a bunch of bucks to install, what with the waterffall surround and the custom marble pool cue rack, but the market disagrees with Joe Fancypants.”

    You have any idea how much it’s going to cost to rip that shit out and replace it with something (I think is) less stupid?

    It doesn’t really amaze me how much money people will dump into a house to make it less valuable. It’s their home and they want it they way they want it, to live in it (the value of your house is that it houses you).

    What amazes me is that they expect to turn a profit on the ruination.

    I admit that I’m a bit pickier than Ton. I want my 15 car garage to a have low walls and a slightly arched roof that you can go up on once every 10 years or so and throw down a fresh layer of tar to keep it tight.

    Some days I feel like I only exist to work for the money to give roofers work.

  45. kfg
    You have any idea how much it’s going to cost to rip that shit out and replace it with something (I think is) less stupid?

    Yep. Matter of fact, I do – I also know building contractors. One has a great story about a master suite that featured purple shag carpet…lol…but I am digressing.

    Yes, costly to fix, but don’t tell Mr. Fancypants who just completely sure that any real man would want that, and if you don’t want it you’re just a real man. The Realtors I listened to don’t know what an AMOG is, but they can describe one very, very accurately. Sunk cost hasta be real value, it just hasta, because AMOG says so!

    Just to be painfully obvious: that was an analogy, the same sunk cost fallacy is all too often applied by men to their women. It’s the Wife Goggles in part, along with other personality features.

    Now this doesn’t apply to religious men who have strict rules to live by, mind you; the churchgoing Blue Pillers I know haven’t got a chioce but to work with the woman they have…even though she’s nothing like the woman they married. Married churchgoing men who have been Betaized but who are working their way out of it have to run some tight game up a steep slope. That’s still better than living in essentially a kind of “cage match”, though.

  46. And now for something totally gay, new age, blue pill and stating what Inanity22 would love for a TRM commenter to say.

    On the other hand read the last paragraph in light of how many guys have bailed on a valuable attractive woman because they were not objectively Alpha enough, had not self improved enough or keep up their part of the DPA triad to engage with a Steve Lyons caliber girl.

    I’m not trying to bullshit anyone. I’m just stating that sometimes a valuable thing slips out of the grasp of a guy that it not up to the task. Relationships with a valuable, beautiful woman are not a completion in life. There is still advancing the man’s imperative, especially with progeny in the balance. Everything is a choice in life and you have free will. That’s not enough, you need real power to control your circumstances and the outcome of your life. Choices and adaptability to do what you want to do, while knowing what exactly you want to do.

    Excuse the Deida language: Chapter 40 Allow Older Women Their Magic. Make sure to grab a barf bag first. And only subscribe to the last paragraph.

    “blockquote”
    When a woman is young, her body more easily conducts life force, and so she appears more radiant, in general, than an older woman. But even amongst young women there are those who are pretty just on the outside, and those whose beauty springs from their depths. As a woman ages, her skin begins to lose its youthful capacity to conduct life force. What remains obvious of her feminine radiance is primarily her beauty of depth.

    In fact, it is this deep beauty that you find most attractive even in young women. There is a difference between your knee-jerk response to a cute babe and the open-hearted awe and mindless swoon you feel in the company of a woman who moves, breathes, smiles, and shines radiant feminine energy like a goddess. When looking into such a woman’s eyes, you feel an almost breathtaking depth of compassion, love, and mystery. This deep feminine beauty or radiance need not be diminished by age. Actually, it can be magnified, deepened, and glorified.

    If you are disconnected from your deep masculine core of purpose and consciousness, then you will also be disconnected from a woman’s depth. You will see only skin deep, and you will be attracted to the superficial display of a woman’s radiance, which often disappears with the passing of youth. You will inadvertently dishonor the true and deep forms of feminine radiance, and so contribute to the social cult of youth, wherein women try to look and behave younger—and more superficial—than they truly are, denying the power and radiance springing from their depths.

    The natural sexiness of a young woman will always give you energy. You never need to deny this. But the awesome beauty and radiant ease of a deep woman can stop your mind, widen your heart, and suspend your body in the mystery of feminine grace, all in an instant, with a single gaze or touch, regardless of her body’s age. And in relationship with such a woman, there are no bounds to the rapture which may resonate through your union. Boundless feminine love-radiance and temporary physical sexiness are both blessings; you must decide, moment by moment, and year by year, which qualities you will invoke and venerate with your attention, praise, and union.

    As a woman grows older with wisdom, her “psychic weight” increases. She becomes a “bigger” woman, able to influence her surroundings with stronger magic than a less developed woman. She is able to read the signs of nature with great accuracy, as well as sway events with almost shocking reign. A superior man honors and appreciates this kind of magic, and knows that it complements his masculine style of accomplishment.

    An older woman will also tolerate less of your bullshit than a younger woman. Although this might be one of your reasons for preferring younger women, you must choose your priority. If you find yourself attracted to younger women, be careful that you aren’t trying to find an easy relationship with a woman who will let you slide. If your purpose is to become ever more free of your self-burdens and give your true gift to the world, then a spiritually mature woman—who won’t let you slather in your comfy habits of security and distraction—may be an excellent ally for your journey.

    My point? Make it your objective decision to drop any plate, don’t let the valuable plate escape because you weren’t up to skillfully spinning that plate on point. Don’t burn bridges unless you choose. There are valuable women out there and those are the ones you want to seek with any damn relationship platform you want for any length of time you want. In MRP, youth, face and figure still hold, but there actually is this background “great character” some older youth still can hold up that triad with. If you’ve ever seen a woman put their parents in the ground (and nurse them before that) with great reverence (if deserved) or be self-less as a woman, it’s odd but beautifully youthful. Strong charactered beautiful women are a thing. And have value.

    And as Novaseeker pointed out, don’t even try to pick up a new one on The Market. But don’t be hesitant to keep one off the Market. I’m not. (And I am specifically only talking about objectively beautiful women with my red pill lenses on. )

  47. Missed formatting.

    Between:

    “When a woman is young…

    …may be an excellent ally for your journey.”

    Everything else is me, but you could have surmised that from the Deida blue pill language and my red pill thoughts.

  48. “Good looking women of all ages have value…for sex–not necessarily for a LTR.”

    For either. That’s what I was trying to explain.

    Their value after it is important.

  49. If you want to persist with the “market” analogies… get back to basics… More buyers than sellers = price bid up.

    Good looking women always have options, because they always have more buyers waiting, because supply of good looking does not equal demand. Simple.

    Whether “a” guy is tired of her or not is irrelevant to the overall market… some of you may have tired of BRK.A when it broke $50k… or $100k…

    A 20 YO 9 has options, same girl at 30 has options, same girl at 40 has options, same girl at 50 has options, same girl at 60 has options, same girl at 70 has options…

    This isn’t controversial…

  50. Blax / Ton

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoOgSVZ8XuM

    And make no mistake, there’s women who just wait
    For the man and machine with the best time

    True enough but not the reason…

    Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
    Hear my motor screamin’ while I’m tearin’ up the street

    There we go… that’s the ticket…

  51. KFG

    Some days I feel like I only exist to work for the money to give roofers work.

    This is the problem with mud huts.

  52. Heads up: There is a comedy series called Sirens on Netflix. It’s adapted by Denis Leary (dry, ironic comedy) and deals with EMT’s and women police officers. It’s half hour segments.

    It is like red pill Seinfeld.

    My wife started watching it with relish. It is straight up red pill. And I can’t tell if it is because my wife is in day ten of my friend menstruation, or if my wife is getting off on the series (on me).

    Over the last year, she has really been more aware of red pill goings on in social and meta-social situations. The Trump victory especially. She just kind of thought it was natural to endorse Trump. She’s straight up with her cognitive thoughts. And extremely perceptive, solipsistic and has power to advance her strategy.

    Now I don’t talk about fight club (red pill) with her, but I darn sure incorporate it in how I act. I don’t know if she likes this red pill Sirens comedy that is extremely watchable, or that she is intrigued by the impudent masculine protagonists and the uninhibited sexual attitude of the female protagonists.

  53. “This is the problem with mud huts.”

    Yeah, but mine is a historic Victorian mud hut. Some women invested a lot of time and energy into nagging men to make it this expensively attractive without functional purpose.

  54. “Yeah, but mine is a historic Victorian mud hut.”

    Does it still have the original old gas flame candelabras?
    I know someone with those.

  55. @anon:

    This is the new “We’re going into the technological 20th century now” house, in a city that, at the time, was progressive and upwardly mobile on the fast track. It was built fully Edisonified.

    The old house was cooking with gas. I loved that when I was kid. Although the lighting of the chandelier was my favorite time of day, I had a particular fascination for the wall brackets.

    I arrived a bit too late to catch the OLD old house, where the wall brackets held whale oil lamps much later than in other places, what with being the last whaling port and all.

  56. Sentient
    Good looking women always have options, because they always have more buyers waiting, because supply of good looking does not equal demand. Simple.

    Depends on the market, dude.

    Whether “a” guy is tired of her or not is irrelevant to the overall market… some of you may have tired of BRK.A when it broke $50k… or $100k…

    On the other hand, I know of people who bought Enron all the way down to nearly zero, because it was such a bargain, it had to be attractive Real Soon Now. Sunk cost fallacy at work. A lot like men who put up with women far longer than they should, because sunk cost + pretty for her age, not that age matters because “options”, right?

    A 20 YO 9 has options, same girl at 30 has options, same girl at 40 has options, same girl at 50 has options, same girl at 60 has options, same girl at 70 has options…

    Uh. Yeah. Sure. Might not exactly be the same options, though.
    Sorta like the difference between a (your fave car) with 10,000 miles vs. the same car with 250,000 mile on it. One has a higher market value than the other.

    The upholstry isn’t the same, for one thing…

  57. @insanitybytes22

    It sounds like you have a great marriage. But for guys who don’t have that, a lot of the conventional advice simply does not work. On a men’s health forum that I frequent, a number of guys have talked about their wives refusing affection. To the men’s frustration, their wives do not even see it as a problem that needs to be solved — so it’s not even a question of talking things out, considering hormones, etc.. I linked to one of Rollo’s essays, but it was clear that these guys had never heard of this Red Pill stuff. But one guy said “Hey, I figured out something that works,” then proceeded to describe textbook “dread game” *(As Rollo points out, it’s not as bad as the name implies, but it’s definitely beyond the pale of political correctness). Not only is his wife not refusing him, she is now going out of her way to initiate things in the bedroom.

    This stuff works, for men and for women. It’s worth seeing the value in that, especially when the only remaining option is divorce.

  58. kfg
    I admit that I’m a bit pickier than Ton. I want my 15 car garage to a have low walls and a slightly arched roof that you can go up on once every 10 years or so and throw down a fresh layer of tar to keep it tight.

    Another name for that is “bunker”, I believe. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, of course.

  59. Boxcar, FYI Bytes has changed her story about her “husband” a number of times over the years. If he exists at all, he’s probably Blue Pill and extremely henpecked. Then again, he may have been converted to a bad smell in the attic years ago. It really doesn’t matter.

    Because she’s just another aging 2nd stage feminist, probably a Boomer, who is an attention whoring control freak. The only reason I’m writing about her at all is to warn you: taking her seriously is an utter waste of time.

  60. “This stuff works, for men and for women. It’s worth seeing the value in that, especially when the only remaining option is divorce.”

    I do see that, Boxcar. I do. I don’t think I’ve ever argued that Tomassi is “wrong” in that sense.

    “FYI Bytes has changed her story about her “husband” a number of times over the years.”

    Untrue. We’ve been married 30 years now and I kid you not when I say marriage just gets better and better.

  61. You guys have yourselves wrapped around the axel and wasting your lives on this PUA shit. You focus on how to seduce $50 hoes, while you could be getting a leg up on your careers or accomplishing something important. Western Civilization is crumbling under your feet…. this is breathtakingly stupid.

  62. You guys have yourselves wrapped around the axel and wasting your lives on this PUA shit. You focus on how to seduce $50 hoes, while you could be getting a leg up on your careers or accomplishing something important. Western Civilization is crumbling under your feet…. this is breathtakingly stupid.

    Dude, poolside is where it’s at. Axel told me so. It must be true.

  63. @insanitybytes22

    The car is broken down, Rollo is looking under the hood, and you are giving him grief for scratching the paint job.

    Look at this from the perspective of the conventional man, who has no reason to be bitter with women, who wants to fall in love, raise a family, etc. We can do everything “right,” but then lose it all (well, at least half our children’s lives, half our paycheck and all of our wife), just because she wasn’t ‘feeling it.’ And without getting too personal, I have seen this happen with good men and good women. It is far from the “divorce rape” nightmare guys reference here (although that’s always a possibility), but it is a big enough problem that the average guy would be foolish not to consider it.

    Men ultimately have to ask the question — can I build a life with a woman? Women have a reasonably good idea of what it takes to make men happy. Why shouldn’t we aspire to the same? Because of political correctness? This is about people’s lives here. This is guys trying to piece together a functional life and you are giving us shit for not declaring noble sentiments of love.

    I think you can see the problem.

    …and yea guys, i get what a troll is, but I am just thinking out loud, like everyone else.

  64. Rollo, thanks for the link…. as everyone says, an impressive body of work.

    I thought of you when I saw a feminist on cable news recently complain about “Baby it’s Cold Outside” for it’s “problematic ideas of consent … there’s no negotiation.”

    Insanity, you do not seem to be someone who thinks that desire can be “negotiated.” Well, this is literally what feminists are telling men to do. Of course even most women don’t take feminists seriously. But it would be foolish to deny that this has real cultural influence.

  65. Initially, post divorce, I was surprised how the age difference thing worked out. At the time I was living in Hawaii and chalked it up to being heavily influenced by the Orientals and Polynesians

    Turns out its the natrual order of things. So yes, good looking 50 year old chicks are pairing up with 60+ year old men. Friend of mines grandpaw is around 70, he dates 50 year old gals and byou dating I mean he’s crushing 50 year old bitches like it’s his full time job. He has horse money, so maybe that throws off the equation?

    A 15 year age difference seems pretty common; I am 19 and 23 years older then the Girls, and that isn’t the largest age split I am aware of. My son in law is 5 years older than the She Ton……Ton2.0 is dating girls about 5 years younger then him, which is about the biggest realistic age difference possible given he’s 26.

    Like I said, these days I take it as the natrual order of things.

  66. LOL I am way into earth sheltered homes. No roofers etc, just mow the grass growing on your house

    Won’t pull the trigger on that anytime soon. Sunk costs for sure.

  67. “Men ultimately have to ask the question — can I build a life with a woman? Women have a reasonably good idea of what it takes to make men happy. Why shouldn’t we aspire to the same? Because of political correctness? This is about people’s lives here. This is guys trying to piece together a functional life and you are giving us shit for not declaring noble sentiments of love.”

    You are going to get taken to the cleaners and/or become a completely subservient bitch in marriage because you are so scared of divorce. Even then, for her divorce is basically risk-free if she feels there is a better deal available to her. Just think of celebrities who have EVERYTHING going for them (charm, status, fame, good looking, perfect body) still get taken to the cleaners. Do you think you are better than them in any capacity? If she doesn’t leave you for someone better, what does that say about her value? If no one else better came along, it is probably because her value has decreased well below your value. Is that really a victory or a happy marriage? And even in that sad situation, she will still have enormous power and control over your life.

  68. So yes, good looking 50 year old chicks are pairing up with 60+ year old men.

    Yes — correct. In *that* market they are in high demand. They aren’t in high demand for *relationships* with top shape men who are 50 or younger, because those guys are in the market for 45 and younger women.

    This all works ok as long as the woman knows what her market is, but unfortunately that’s often not the case. Just off the top of my head, a woman of around 60 comes to mind — she’s at work and we’re in a large group and the ladies, who are all 50+, are talking about dating. She’s reasonably well-maintained but not an a-list type head-turner, even for a 60 yo. Anyway, she says that she prefers to date men who are under 50, and absolutely no-one older than 55, “because they seem old to me, and I don’t feel old, and they will just hold me back …. I don’t want to have to take care of some old guy”, etc. Needless to say, she doesn’t seem to do a lot of dating. She thinks because she’s in, say, the top 20% of 60 yo women in appearance that she can pull 50 or younger men for relationships, but obviously it doesn’t work very well for her. This is an example of “not knowing your market” or maybe even “not wanting your market”. With her bag of tricks she would be in good shape for a guy 65-75, but that, which is her actual market, doesn’t interest her.

    Based on observation, this kind of “market mismatch” thinking is more common in women who were closer to the top of the class, in appearance, most of their lives. For much of their lives they were in the position of “attractive to most/all men in the room”. At some point, they passed that, but with some of them it doesn’t happen until quite late in the game — that is there are some women who, at 40, 45, even close to 50, who turn the heads of almost all the guys in the room (at least in rooms where most of the guys are 35+, which is increasingly the case as a woman ages anyway). When it eventually happens that they stop turning heads of men who are under, say 60, then it starts to become a real issue for them, because they are used to having tremendous attraction power, and when that finally passes away, even if that doesn’t happen until she’s 60+, it’s a shock, and an unpleasant one, because the men she can still attract are men she does not want.

    For most women this happens at much younger ages, so they are mostly more realistic. That is, most women feel their attraction power shrink in terms of the ages and type/pool of men who find them attractive at earlier ages — whether it’s 35 or 40 or 45, etc. And they adjust to that, accepting that they are still considered attractive, but just by a smaller group of men and they don’t turn the whole room’s head when they walk in. For a smaller group of women for whom this happens later, it can be very hard to adjust to the change.

    Of course stories like this don’t help: https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/people-think-this-mom-and-her-daughters-are-sisters-and-we-can-see-why-200455054.html . Obviously a pretty rare thing, even with today’s standards of working out and nutrition and surgery, but the proliferation of stories like that can lead to more average women thinking that they have more pull, like this woman, rather than realizing that they have more of an average level of pull, and therefore a smaller pool to pull from — that is a more “age typical” pull rather than “age atypical” pull.

  69. @Nova

    Anyway, she says that she prefers to date men who are under 50, and absolutely no-one older than 55, “because they seem old to me, and I don’t feel old, and they will just hold me back …. I don’t want to have to take care of some old guy”,

    This woman is attempting to provide her own validation. I’m sure she’s aware of market realities on some level, but would rather maintain her façade than have a real relationship.

  70. “The car is broken down, Rollo is looking under the hood, and you are giving him grief for scratching the paint job.”

    I’m giving him grief for his nihilism and bitterness, for building an entire praxeology around it, and for misleading men into believing sex is a good substitute for Salvation. Tomassi is a piss poor mechanic and he’s not scratching the paint, he’s kicking dents in the car. He could be good,he could be so much better, but he’s trapped in his own ego investments and misery just loves company.

  71. Regarding Nova ‘s link

    Anyone who thinks that lady is their sister is has piss poor observation skills and/ or not a custom to evaluating women.

    She is a good looking woman but skin quality, her hands, legs….. even her boob job says old school stripper boobs.

  72. Anyone who thinks that lady is their sister is has piss poor observation skills and/ or not a custom to evaluating women.

    She is a good looking woman but skin quality, her hands, legs….. even her boob job says old school stripper boobs.

    Yep, it only takes a few seconds to figure out the obvious age difference. But my point is that articles like that one can encourage average looking women to think they look younger and hotter than they actually do.

  73. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/the-unbearable-triteness-of-hating/

    12. Fallacy of Misdirected Obsession Hate

    Hater: A guy who spends his life obsessing over how to get women is a loser.

    A guy who spends his life obsessing over climbing the corporate ladder to get more attention from women is a loser.
    A guy who spends his life obsessing over mastering guitar and playing in a rock band to get more attention from women is a loser.
    A guy who spends his life obsessing over pursuing financial rewards and acquiring resources to get more attention from women is a loser.
    A guy who….. ah, you get the point.

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