In last week’s comment thread, we were linked to a study that purported cuckoldry is far rarer than previously suspected. While I and many others are skeptical of the methodology of the findings I think it’s far more telling about the state of the Feminine Imperative that such a “study” (really meta-study) would be so triumphantly emphasized in the femosphere, thus highlighting the latent purpose for such a study to begin with.
Culum Straun links it for us:
New research suggests that the percentage of men (unknowingly) raising children who aren’t their own is only around 1-2%, as opposed to the 10-30% figure previously accepted over decades.
Reasons are unclear – the first hypothesis was that birth control may have reduced the *pregnancy* rates of women but not the infidelity rate – but apparently the 1-2% figure holds steady going back centuries, so that can’t be it.
The study authors conclude that in all probability the benefits of “superior genes” are outweighed by the risks of being caught and the social stigma etc.
I’d be really interested in seeing what you guys think – is this information that needs to be used to revise our view of the world around us, or is there some flaw in the reasoning/logic leading to 1-2%? The most obvious thing I can see is that we don’t know the methodologies of the underlying studies which were combined to find the meta survey..
I found it interesting that the first reflexive from the femosphere was to wave this in the air as if it were some kind of vindication or a refutation of Hypergamy. “See guys? We don’t actually lie about paternity; if we marry and fuck you we statistically have your kids.”
It’s important to remember that the definition they are exploring here is one where men are “unknowingly” raising the progeny of another man. From the article:
This challenges evolutionary psychologists who have suggested that human women “routinely ‘shop around’ for good genes by engaging in extra-pair copulation to obtain genetic benefits.”
They conveniently ignore the genomic evidence that shows roughly 80% of women bred with 20% of men in our evolutionary past (including Neanderthals), but the basis of the study is flawed because they ask the wrong question. Whether or not the women in our evolutionary past were pair-bonded in whatever social arrangement that passed for institutional monogamy at the time is functionally irrelevant to the latent purpose of cuckoldry.
It does, however, expose the mental point of origin of author Annalee Newitz. If she had cited the source for her quote I’d be less skeptical because no evo-psych researcher worth their salt would presume that women exclusively seek better genetic stock while within a pair-bonded relationship. It’s an indictment of the openness with which women embrace Hypergamy that they’d still need a janitor to sweep its ugliness back under the rug occasionally.
For the greater part of evo-psych research, the emphasis of study has centered on biological and evolutionary motivators (Estrus) that prompt women to Hypergamous predispositions and the end-purpose implied in women fulfilling their sexual strategy.
The Ends of Cuckoldry
The term “cuckoldry” isn’t strictly confined to duplicitous women duping husbands/boyfriends into believing the kid is theirs when it’s some other guy’s. Consider the marked increase in single motherhood since the Sexual Revolution; the statistic for abortion, the declining marriage rate and the fact that now, in westernized society, and the majority of births (close to 60%) are born to unwed mothers.
Now consider the social imperatives and zeitgeist of the past 70 years that promote women’s Hypergamous choices to the point that every woman’s sexual strategy and breeding choices are legislatively mandated to be supported. Men are mandated to support women’s breeding imperatives both directly and indirectly. Is that not the end purpose of cuckoldry?
Cuckoldry is implicative of far more than this woman’s narrow definition. And it’s narrow because women like Newitz are selling a salve to misdirect men in a larger society from considering that their cuckolding is really by and of their own volition. This is because men have been conditioned over the course of successive generations to think they are some kind of hero for ‘saving’ a woman from her own breeding decisions by directly or indirectly forgiving indiscretions and supporting and raising a child he didn’t father.
Just because a man knows the child isn’t his own doesn’t make it any less cuckoldry.
The question that needs to be asked, and is conveniently avoided in the article, is “what is the latent, evolutionarily motivated purpose of cuckoldry that would best serve women’s dualistic sexual strategy?” This is the uncomfortable question those nefarious evo-psych researchers really ask.
In the past, duplicitous, concealed, cuckoldry was a very risky prospect from a social perspective. It could mean family/tribal ostracism or even being stoned to death. So the larger, most deductively efficient way to achieve the same Hypergamous ends of cuckoldry is to reengineer a society where men are either ignorant of their own role in that cuckoldry or provided social rewards for their knowing participation in a socially acceptable form of cuckoldry. The latter is where we’ve progressed since the Sexual Revolution.
The ends remain the same, but it is cuckoldry by a different name. When we can restructure a social order that accepts and excuses both proactive and retroactive cuckoldry before the fact, we normalize it and defuse the consequences for women, while holding men accountable for its consequences or their unwillingness to participate in it. And even when a woman aborts a child – the ultimate confirmation of Hypergamous disapproval – that social order pre-approves her choice, pre-approves holding her unaccountable for it and concurrently makes the men who would find fault in it villains for judging her pre-approved act.
Sons of Cuckolds
Reader Petherton linked me to a fascinating article which not only illustrates that Hypergamy was an issue for the Greatest Generation, but also details the wages of ‘secret’ cuckoldry. Apparently the Archbishop of Canterbury has discovered he is the illegitimate son of Sir Winston Churchill’s last private secretary after taking a DNA test to prove his paternity.
Petherton:
This is a perfect example of women’s hypergamous nature. She rides the cock carousel and gets impregnated by an Alpha who’s already taken. She quickly marries a Beta who is hovering in the background and cuckolds him. He never unplugs, she loses respect for him (if there ever was any in the 1st place) and he drinks himself to an early death.
Eventually the truth comes out. Instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she paints herself as a victim. The pregnancy is blamed on alcohol, and she successfully generates pity from everyone. In fact she generates admiration from everyone for her brave and successful fight against alcoholism, and for putting up with an alcoholic husband.
No one anywhere suggests the truth: that she had a strategy (whether conscious or subconscious) to find the best genes for her offspring, while fooling another man into providing for that offspring. When she gets busted, she successfully paints herself as the victim. You couldn’t make it up!
Needless to say, I found this article and the blatantly revealed cuckoldry oddly karmic in its timing coinciding with the “cuckoldry” study’s release. However, we should now consider the Arch Bishop’s response to his mother’s proveable cuckoldry of his “father”.
“His deepest identity isn’t about which man was his father, but who his heavenly Father is.”
This is exactly the diplomatic response I’d expect from men (albeit a religious one in this instance) steeped in a feminine-primary social order and conditioned from birth to affirm his Blue Pill existence. While egalitarianism is ostensibly about baseline equalism and “it’s what’s on the inside that counts”, on the outside, there is no better social mandate that serves the evolutionary ends of Hypergamy. The Arch Bishop’s response to his mother’s cuckoldry is a textbook example of how the Feminine Imperative conditions men to excuse, affirm and perpetuate its ends.
He said the right thing.
From Schedules of Mating:
Cheating
For this dynamic, and the practicality of enjoying the best of both genetic worlds, women find it necessary to ‘cheat’. This cheating can be done proactively or reactively.In the reactive model, a woman who has already paired with her long term partner choice, engages in a extramarital or extra-pairing, sexual intercourse with a short term partner (i.e. the cheating wife or girlfriend). That’s not to say this short term opportunity cannot develop into a 2nd, long term mate, but the action of infidelity itself is a method for securing better genetic stock than the committed male provider is (or was) capable of supplying.
Proactive cheating is the single Mommy dilema. This form of ‘cheating’ relies on the woman breeding with a Good Genes male, bearing his children and then abandoning him, or having him abandon her, (again through invented social conventions) in order to find a Good Dad male to provide for her and the children of her Good Genes partner to ensure their security.
I want to stress again that (most) women do not have some consciously constructed and recognized master plan to enact this cycle and deliberately trap men into it. Rather, the motivations for this behavior and the accompanying social rationales invented to justify it are an unconscious process. For the most part, women are unaware of this dynamic, but are nonetheless subject to its influence. For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.
The Cuckold
On some level of consciousness, men innately sense something is wrong with this situation, though they may not be able to place why they feel it or misunderstand it in the confusion of women’s justifications for it. Or, they become frustrated by the social pressures to ‘do the right thing’, are shamed into martyrdom/savior-hood and committed to a feigned responsibility to these conventions. Nevertheless, some see it well enough to steer clear of single mothers, either by prior experience or observing other male cuckolds saddled with the responsibility of raising and providing for – no matter how involved or uninvolved – another man’s successful reproduction efforts with this woman.Men often fall into the role of the proactive or reactive Cuckold. He will never enjoy the same benefits as his mates short term partner(s) to the same degree, in the way of sexual desire or immediacy of it, while at the same time enduring the social pressures of having to provide for this Good Genes father’s progeny. It could be argued that he may contribute minimally to their welfare, but on some level, whether emotional, physical, financial or educational he will contribute some effort for another man’s genetic stock in exchange for a limited form of sexuality/intimacy from the mother. To some degree, (even if only by his presence) he is sharing the parental investment that should be borne by the short term partner. If nothing else, he contributes the time and effort to her he could be better invested in finding a sexual partner with which he could pursue his own genetic imperative by his own methodology.
However, needless to say, there is no shortage of men sexually deprived enough to ‘see past’ the long term disadvantages, and not only rewarding, but reinforcing a single mother’s bad decisions (bad from his own interest’s POV) with regard to her breeding selections and schedules in exchange for short term sexual gratification. Furthermore, by reinforcing her behavior thusly, he reinforces the social convention for both men and women. It’s important to bear in mind that in this age women are ultimately, soley responsible for the men they choose to mate with (baring rape of course) AND giving birth to their children. Men do bear responsibility for their actions no doubt, but it is ultimately the decision of the female and her judgement that decides her and her children’s fate
Who’s the Daddy?
Finally, we complete the cuckoldry trifecta with the Spectator article, Who’s the Daddy. Again, serendipitously, the rationale of this article exposes (perhaps obliviously) the social underpinnings of the Feminine Imperative’s motives in getting men to accept women’s Hypergamous choices as the preeminent social norm.
Many men have, of course, ended up raising children who were not genetically their own, but really, does it matter? You can feel quite as much tenderness for a child you mistakenly think to be yours as for one who is.
[…]Uncertainty allows mothers to select for their children the father who would be best for them.
If the definition of cuckoldry ought to be confined to deceptive duplicity, as AnnaleeNewitz suggests in her article, why then should we need a push to legally mandate men to being accountable fathers by default when they proveably are not?
Ironically, the very same DNA swab test that betrayed the Arch Bishop’s mother’s cuckoldry is the test Melanie McDonagh proposes we make illegal or irrelevant in a court of law. And unironically, the Arch Bishop parrots back the mantra of the Feminine Imperative to excuse his own mother’s birth-fraud.
But in making paternity conditional on a test rather than the say-so of the mother, it has removed from women a powerful instrument of choice. I’m not sure that many people are much happier for it.
Novaseeker had an excellent comment on this:
From the time paternity tests became more available and reliable, and men started using them to avoid paternity claims, the same argument has been made: it’s bad for the kids. Who cares if he isn’t the bio-dad, fatherhood isn’t about biology, it’s about a parental relationship. We should trust women who determine who the father is, so that she can choose the best man she thinks to be the father, etc., etc. The same arguments have been made for some time. In fact, medical ethicists also make the same arguments, to a large degree, in support of not disclosing non-paternity when it comes up in tests that were not specifically undergone to determine paternity — in other words, if your kid is getting tested for inherited disease, and the hospital finds out that it isn’t your bio kid, they don’t tell you that, for all the reasons stated in the article.
This really is a visceral issue for women. Paternity tests strike at something fundamental in women, even if the actual cuckolding rate remains low: the possibility to cuck, if needed. It’s a visceral issue for women, at a very deep and basic hindbrain level, for fairly clear reasons. If paternity tests were ever to become standard/mandatory at birth, the cucking strategy, even if it is a rather uncommon one, would become completely unavailable, and almost every single woman finds that to be a problem based on her hindbrain (and regardless of how her forebrain will formulate that deep, basic discomfort).
I’ve stated it in the past, but as the Feminine Imperative becomes more comfortable with Open Hypergamy and Open Cuckoldry more men will find its machinations unignorable. Thus, as increasingly more men refuse to participate in the game of their gender’s debasement the imperative must pursue legal mandates and fluid social restructuring to force men to comply with it.
Novaseeker again:
An amazing thing is how easy it is for women to dismiss the significance of biological fatherhood. It’s almost as if it simply doesn’t matter to them.
If that’s not an obvious flag of the FI, and the attendant idea that one sex’s sexual strategy must always impinge on the other sex’s sexual strategy, I don’t know what is. It places zero, zilch, nada importance on the male interest in having genetic progeny — again, it’s as if that interest simply doesn’t exist, and is illegitimate to even take into consideration.
There was a time when I had difficulty explaining the difference between men’s idealistic concept of love and women’s opportunistic concept of love. I’ve recently come to see that the best explanations and contrasts come from the openly embraced examples set by women that can’t be ignored.
There is no better example of women’s opportunistic love, indeed, women’s innate solipsistic nature, than the phrase “it shouldn’t matter to the man who the biological father of the child really is – he just needs to accept it and support it.”
And there is no greater evidence of the Feminine Imperative’s purpose than a society structured to ensure that men and women believe this, as well as perpetuate it.
Rollo, why are you skeptical of the methodology?
2% is still 1 in 50 fathers being duped (under the rather strict definition they use). That is not necessarily something to brag about. Infidelity is of course higher by definition.
This will go to moderation for the number of links, but here are some of the abstracts and one of the papers referenced in the meta survey… The Ars Technica article: http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/cuckoldry-is-incredibly-rare-among-humans/ Following shortly, poster Scribblerg linked to the actual journal article: http://www.cell.com/pb-assets/journals/trends/ecology-evolution/tree2086.pdf I collected a few links to abstracts of some of the references in the new survey, of the studies it refers which are not historical, so affected by modern culture and modern birth control: 2006 study shows large difference of EPP between fathers with high confidence of paternity (around 2%) and fathers with low confidence (around 30%)… Read more »
Still reading the post but wanted an opinion from Rollo & the guys, with regards to honesty, from a male perspective – From the “Paternity Fraud” article: “However, 61 per cent of women would want their partners to be “brutally honest” if they asked them “do I look fat?” or “do you think my best friend s attractive?” Tomassi-sensei, I don’t know what you think of this, but, though I’m for keeping women on a need-to-know basis; are there times honesty can be used to entrench MPO, instigate &/or maintain dread? I believe so, what do you guys think? In… Read more »
“do I look fat?”
Pay careful attention to the phrasing of the question.
Hint: the question is not, “Am I fat?”
“You are and you look it.” 🙂
Much higher than that and 100% of husbands would be cuckolds in the days of large families. The conclusion could be that mate guarding is reasonably effective, not that women can be trusted.
I’ve come to similar conclusions by observing the structure of our society. We’ve come to a point where it takes us as a society only a small number of specialized men to provide us with the necessary security and mataerial production. But even in those cases, a man being it a soldier, firefighter, police, miner, etc does not get the rewards and social status that men of prior generations would get. Yes, they get paid for their work, but doing those kind of jobs is not just about a salary. Normally, in a society where the FI and MI are… Read more »
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120619.gif
Carry on.
The problem with introducing women into the workforce and men’s world in general is that we have legislated everything happening in public based on Male behavior and worldview. Women coming into male’s domains with equal rights, is the same as Uber getting into the market place. It’s a totally different behavior and way of doing business, so it’s not legislated and it is disrupting the market. For a man to get rich quickly, he can steal money or evade taxes, for whom we have the appropriate laws and penalties. If a woman wants to get rich, she can suck the… Read more »
Back in the 1960’s (when the majority of infants were still born in wedlock), most US Hospital Nurseries decided to STOP routine testing of parental & newborn ABO blood types because of a dirty little secret: Of those infants born in wedlock, about 20% the newborns possessed ABO blood-type antigens that were incompatible with the blood-type of the stated Father, meaning that there was a cuckoldry rate of about 20%. Of course, times have changed dramatically since the 1960s. Currently in the EU & the US, only about 60% of infants are born in wedlock & almost 40% of infants… Read more »
Have you ever heard about the studies that show widowers have a significant increase in mortality over married men their age, while widows have no significant increase in mortality over married women their age? This is pretty clear evidence of men’s love for women being stronger than women’s love for men.
“Now, I understood there were leaders among men, but more like leaders of Alphas, rather than Leaders of betas.” In a more fleshed out socio-sexual hierarchy structure than the simple binary used ’round these parts, the leaders are Alpha and the “Alphas” being led are Beta. Beta, rather than being the low rank, is the second highest, the inner circle of the men that the Alpha leads. His right hand men. Charlemagne was Alpha. Roland was Beta because, no matter that he was a Lord in his own right, in his own house, he bowed his knee to and took… Read more »
Accepting back a cheater only lowers your value. I did this and all it did was signal to the girl that this guy has so few options he’s willing to accept what I personally feel ashamed about so obviously he couldn’t possibly be long term material…/or he’ll dump me when he comes to his senses…
>Have women pay special taxes for public services that are mostly male professions. Can’t do it. Equal Protection clause. You need 3/4 of BOTH the House and Senate to Agree or 2/3 of the State Legislatures to agree that women should pay a special tax. No problem. >>>Put a special Tax/Fine on women who willingly decide to become single mothers Might be possible. All you have to do is cut back some of the welfare benefits. Fuck making them pay. First we need to stop paying THEM. >>>We might not be able to force Monogamy on people, but we can… Read more »
“… From the time paternity tests became more available and reliable, and men started using them to avoid paternity claims, the same argument has been made: it’s bad for the kids …” The ‘bad for the kids’ meme is played by the powers at be whenever it suits their end goals. Fault free divorce was pushed through in the 70s with a great deal of insistence that it wasn’t bad for kids. Thus it was only natural to insist that there be no official support for children during or after the divorce process. To suggest otherwise would have undermined their… Read more »
I still struggle with the concept that most women actively try to acquire the ‘ best genes “. It may be subconscious in some manner I guess, But my eyeballs on the ground don’t see the best gene thing in action for a majority of women. Maybe I don’t fully understand the idea of best genetic material or something, but I see an awful lot of females getting knocked up by all manner of men, and from what I can tell a lot of these dudes didn’t hit any kind of genetic lottery what-so-ever. Maybe ” best genetics ” is… Read more »
..every so often
@Blax
They subconsciously determine genetics by following evolved cues that indicate genetic fitness. Cues can be faked. Evolved triggers can be tricked. Plus you’re a man going of what you think women should find valuable and judging what they do find valuable by that standard.
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/little-white-lie/
Here you go. Was a good documentary.
Blax….
LOL… Great story… I’m thinking as well there may one day be a knock on the door and some 30 yo is saying “dad!”…. There is a show out now about this “Grandfathered”…
As to best genetics… It always comes down to 3 traits… Dynamic, passionate and authentic.
Yeah there may be some slip ups over time, but in general its these 3 things. Not the way guys look at Alpha… For sure…
But then cats are not dogs after all…
@ Sun
Lol…then these guys have been faking and tricking their asses off. They should call David Blaine and Chris Angel.
Good for them!!!
This was probably the best scene in the whole lousy movie:
@ Sentient Just between you and me, the girl was a damn 9, 9.5 ( I don’t believe in 10″s ). Hell, her Mom was hot as hell too. I wasn’t afraid about her being pregnant. I made sure she took ” both barrels ” during sex. Which goes to show how foolish young cats can be. Okay on the genetics. I was thinking height, eye color, build… all physical stuff. I picked the mother(s) of my daughters using those as some of the measurements. : ) So according to you and Sun, you’re ” signaling “, not necessarily possessing… Read more »
I found the link to the Neandertal gene very informative,in that link there is another study that suggests that while modern woman couldn’t reproduce w/ Neandertal males Because of a Y chromosome that would cause miscarriage the modern male could reproduce W/ Neandertal females again supporting Hypergamy theories. Speaking for myself a”whorehouse raised little fucker”I know of two probable children of my own that were raised by unknowing cucks. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is likely a duck. I never minded so much raising and supporting other men’s children until they became feminized… Read more »
….another albeit more detailed example of what you have already repeatedly ascertained and hashed out multiple times previously. Certainly you are correct in pointing out these facts, “connecting the dots” and providing numerous evidence to prove the truth of your observations. And also certainly, the first step towards a significant social change concerning this is the education of men and women. Men need to be made aware of how they are being duped the true source of their frustration; women need to be made aware that men are aware. However, once the problems and nature of biased feminine primacy is… Read more »
Woohoo! My first comment featured in a post! Now I’m finally a regular in the comments…
@Blax
Men fall for fake tits, make up, and bleach blonde hair all the time.
Humans are generally just kinda stupid and running on auto pilot. If you don’t force your intellectual brain to process what your lizard brain is seeing you’re gonna have a bad time.
There is no better example of women’s opportunistic love, indeed, women’s innate solipsistic nature, than the phrase “it shouldn’t matter to the man who the biological father of the child really is – he just needs to accept it and support it.” And there is no greater evidence of the Feminine Imperative’s purpose than a society structured to ensure that men and women believe this, as well as perpetuate it. Indeed, Rollo! And the point is that this is the case even if the rate of cuckoldry, in the traditional sense of a man unwittingly raising another man’s kids, is… Read more »
“I’d expect from men (albeit a religious one in this instance) steeped in a feminine-primary social order and conditioned from birth to affirm his Blue Pill existence.”
Well that is how i got here.
@NBTM
While men could produce extensive articles on the detrimental effects of feminism,These would all have the opposite effect than intended thereby furthering the cause of feminism.
Masculinity is not at this time the popular cause of modern society.
@sruffinbox
“Masculinity is not at this time the popular cause of modern society.”
Gregory colbert went over a lot of this in AShes to snow…
@stuffinbox
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/S/Sm/Smith_Helen_-_Men_on_strike.pdf
Cuckolding is one of those social events that is seemingly purpose designed to stump scientific examination. Indeed, maybe that’s the evolutionary point. It’s my personal,very anecdotal experience that women unconsciously/subconsciously plan cuckoldry in ways which ensure getting busted is zilch. Case in point- Latina woman married to a black dude generally seeks out dark skinned Chads. A white guy won’t be as attractive to her ,because 9 months later the jig would be up. Dark skinned Alphas shed jump all over for the flip side of that reason. Taking it further, if the kid looks marginally similar to the Beta… Read more »
Here’s a guy that would never stand for being a cuckold. He’s not sitting much either though:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/07/after-anal-rape-leftist-felt-despair-that-his-somalian-attacker-was-deported/
@NBTM, you know, there is no end to the blogs of Purple Pill life coaches pandering to a female readership by passive-aggressively writing to men about how they ought to Man-Up by acting in accordance with ‘what women really want’. There is no end to the blogs and books written about mindset and psyching a man’s positive thinking of himself to inflate him to unrealistic self-impressions that have no basis in his actual circumstance. There’s no end to the YouTube MGTOW isolationists who vlog under assumed names who offer no solutions beyong “the only winning move is not to play… Read more »
I wonder why that is?
Mysterious, innit? Seems like he’d fit in better at Bites or whatever Bloody Sunshine is calling herself this week, y’know?
Rollo said “80% of women bred with 20%”
I think the studies actually showed a 80/40% women/men genetic heritage. Still though, men passed half as many genes on as women, and that’s some majorly disproportionate shiz.
Lol you couldnt make this up… but that image of the cucked husband though…jeez
http://ihypocrite.net/2016/04/10/thats-a-rapp/
You can spend the time and attention to criticize NBTM, but not to address Vasalgel/RISUG, in a post and comments about cuckoldry news.
http://www.quickmeme.com/WTF–Jackie-Chan/
@Novaseeker, @Rollo: with respect to women not caring who the bio-parent is – but only when it concerns the man… I posted about this on the other thread. In any situation when the “mother” would know or find out later they are not the bio-mother things change and it is possible to see their hypocrisy. There are even many classic stories where a main antagonist is an evil stepmother. To make it more similar to what men have to go through… How many barren/sterile women are 100% ok with adopting, or would agree without qualms and without feeling bad about… Read more »
@Sun Wukong – Cues can be faked. Evolved triggers can be tricked. Not only can they be tricked and faked, they don’t really work anymore to begin with. Womens selection criteria were formed in tiny semi nomadic tribes with a stable hierarchy and an innate, obvious and largely unchanging apex. Whilst other commentators have said that men can be fooled by fake tits and they are right, mens sexual signalling isn’t semi randomly being fired off by things such as – contextual alpha but otherwise useless coffee shop boss, two pints brave no hopers making a pass at the right… Read more »
“Only 1-2%. See? We DO have your children when you fuck us after we marry you”.
Okay then, toots. If that’s the case, you won’t have a problem with mandatory paternity testing.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about dating single mothers? Not all men feel the desire to breed. In fact, I would suggest that the smartest men choose not to breed in this day and age. Why would you want to have kids that are a massive burden on your time, finances and mental health? Much better to just get with a woman who has already got breeding out of her system so she doesn’t want a kid out of you. Then you get the sex without having to commit to the woman or the kids. I’m 50,… Read more »
I am reminded of the Chris Rock joke. “A mans lie is ‘I was at Tony’s house’… A woman’s lie is, ‘it’s your baby’.
1 in 50 fathers is still too high to be lied to about being a father.
If a woman says no to a paternity test, feelings aside, you have the answer right there. Who doesn’t take a test? One who knows they will fail it.
Young men should avoid getting involved with a pregnant woman or a woman who has kids (already), period. I’m giving this advice to younger men on a regular basis because our society (and court system) has become one that: Doesn’t care about the rights of everyone (meaning men). Legislation is constantly pushing for men to be the responsible party while women only have to “say so”..no law required. It’s not in the best interest of the children (or the man who isn’t the father). It holds women accountable for their actions. Times have changed from 100 years ago with the… Read more »
Hey hey Mystery gets some federalist props. Game and RP make more inroads to the mainstream consciousness.
http://thefederalist.com/2016/04/11/how-learning-to-follow-romantic-scripts-ended-in-a-happy-marriage/
Granted it’s still a pretty purple pill reading of it all. FI was fulfilled in that “I got my dutiful beta geek husband with a side of geek smart enough to try and figure out “the game””.
@qsajaq Who doesn’t take a test? One who knows they will fail it. The vast majority of women would not. If they break ranks, their sisters who are lying would lose cover. The social convention used will be that “You don’t trust me; you’re a horrible man,” unless they’re not married. In the unmarried case she’ll take it if she’s pretty sure its his and she wants to lock him down. Happened to a friend of mine. Of course, then he was dumb enough to knock her up twice more one of which ended with a stillbirth. I’ve been shaking… Read more »
@Agent
Purple as fuck.
I’ve never waited for more than 3 dates for a woman to want to fuck, even before TRP. I instinctively grasped a woman in those cases wasn’t that in to me and gave up on her.
Blax…
” I made sure she took ” both barrels ” during sex.”
damn man… if you have TWO cocks… well you win the Alpha of the Board Award for sure…
The male peacock’s long and brightly colored feathers puts him at a survival disadvantage in nature. None the less, they exist because for female peacocks, they are a sign of genetic advantage. Similarly, the brightly colored feathers of birds are a survival disadvantage for males, but they conveys genetic advantage to female birds. These colors exist in pair bonded bird species only because the females cheat on their pair bonded partner who then raises their offspring. It has been reported that when male birds observe their partner cheating, they abandon the nest. Similarly, multiple studies have shown that human females… Read more »
Radium
“Masculine energy is generally based on some form of 1) courage, 2) loyalty, 3) mastery of skills and people, and 4) self sacrifice.”
I’ve considered the root of masculine energy to be truth, logos… the truth of pain and a dollar bill.
@kfg For every great king, you have countless of others that never lived up to their title. Alphas come in many shapes and Beyond a certain point we’ll just discuss semantics. And I agree that men can be grouped into more than just Alpha&Beta. My point is that we can increase the average Alpha-ness in men(call it RP awareness if you want,) given the right environment. @bluepillprofessor Just wait until the feminist threat gets closer to the Elite. Only then you’ll see some change. The power of Betas can a real threat to them, soon they’ll have to restructure society… Read more »
@ SJF, YaReally, ludiamondz, rest Thanks for the input on the last post. Had a pisser of a day yesterday with the GF and am still in recovery. I’m exhausted. FWIW in relation to this post, she’s told me before she doesn’t care if I don’t want to raise the kid, that she’d settle for me getting her pregnant and then me leaving and her raising the baby on her own. That she just wants to have my baby. Obviously with current legislation, that wouldn’t happen and I’d end up paying for the kid until they turned 18. But that’s… Read more »
@Softek, I’ve been monitoring your recent posts. Get out. Now.
This woman is a BPD go re-read:
https://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/
https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/22/dream-girls-and-children-with-dynamite/
@Rollo: On Softek’s situation….COSIGN!!!
Softek….brother….just, NO…NO, NO, NO!
Leave…she’s weaving that web around you fam!
I appreciate the struggle you’re going through but, you need to distance yourself, completely…
I have an issue in my relationship I hope I can get some feedback on. I’ve been seeing a girl for over three years. Gamed her, have kept a masculine frame, continually passed shit tests. Anyway, our sex is normally great. She likes it rough, specifically being choked. There have been a few times I’ve let off because I’ve thought it can’t be healthy to be choked for that long and that vigorously. When from behind she will push her throat into my hand with a lot of force. But, when I initiated the other night in bed it was… Read more »
Softek I’m having a hard time understanding Dread, because while it has worked to some extent with this girl, she’s heavy into the Transition Phase, and on top of that has potential cluster B issues. If she even sees me looking at another girl she’ll get extremely upset, not ramped up competition anxiety, but going silent and getting angry at me and not wanting to talk to me or have anything to do with me. Dread elicits a reaction… that’s it. Her reaction to your dread is designed by her to get you back in orbit. Her rolodex play as… Read more »
A big part of why I’m keeping this going isn’t even because of just the sex, but the support I’m getting.
@Softek
Bro, thanks for sharing this… a disturbing but predictable example of AWALT.
I’m honestly confused that you haven’t broken this off yet. You can clearly see this is a train wreck… when are you going to jump off and save yourself?
Rollo has nailed our current state with Open Hypergamy… this girl has openly, unashamedly stated her intentions. If she can’t lock you down directly, she’ll either force your financial support or find some other beta schmuck to cuckold… fuck, you can’t make this shit up!
Please, stop having sex with this girl and ghost her!
If some guy is with 1200 chicks and gets divorced raped I do blame him for picking poorly. That kind of guy is looking for “someone special” and doesn’t respect the women he can bed easily. He can likely get a variety of good looking women, so that’s not an issue, but he “falls for” one who spikes him more, is more interesting. Who is crazy and manipulative. ‘Cause the others are just too boring for him at that point. I think there are guys who can attract women easily, who game for a while, but who can see through… Read more »
@Softek
Watching your posts on here feels like I’m getting a visit from the Ghost of Relationships Past.
Seriously, I was you but I didn’t have the info and the dudes we have here to help. Don’t make the mistakes I made. Everybody here saying to NEXT her ass is absolutely right.
No pussy is worth what this chick is putting you through (and by extension what you’re putting yourself through). Move on already.
http://orig09.deviantart.net/586c/f/2010/110/1/f/thor_on_the_rainbow_bridge_by_dianephotos.jpg
Softie’s girlfriend?
@Softek
Sorry to say bud but if you are having relationship issues and you know some guy who has slept with 1200 women, it would take a miracle for him to be not fucking your GF already, or more likely to have fucked her already, got bored and moved on.
She didn’t start nagging at you in earnest shortly after she met him, by any chance, did she?
Don’t want to be harsh but this is the way it goes sometimes. I change my advice from pivot her to run the fuck away and dont look back.
@Softek “She argued that she doesn’t want commitment because it has anything to do with marriage or kids. That it has nothing to do with that at all. That she just wants to ‘feel secure.’ ” = FI in play… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_tactics if you give in to ‘commitment’… next up is a ‘ring’… bc she needs THAT to feel ‘secure’…lol… And then she intermittently comes out with things like that, saying she wants to have kids with me, and getting upset seeing her friends getting married and how she might never get married herself, or have kids, then comes right back… Read more »
“this is the first time I’ve ever experienced something like this. ” she is not acting very cool. period. cool gfs basically do the opposite of everything she’s doing “Just her saying that alone really threw me off. ” it should have. when it gets to the point of women saying stuff like this out loud it means trouble. usually they just act without verbalizing. if a girl wants your baby she gets pregnant. she doesn’t tell you about it first. with women, planning = trouble. she should be following your plans, not making her own “Never had a professional… Read more »
@Softek:
http://upl.stack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sprinter.jpg
@softek “Also, I’ve pointed out to her that the idea of marriage and kids was way, way, way too far beyond where I am now to consider, and in five years will still probably be way too far beyond where I am then to consider. She argued that she doesn’t want commitment because it has anything to do with marriage or kids. That it has nothing to do with that at all. That she just wants to ‘feel secure.’” don’t listen to her. don’t listen to anything she says, she’s just crazy. i’m not a pyschologist or anything but she… Read more »
@BennyB
You’re dealing with a woman who has problems. It’s up to you to stay in or get out but know that you’re dealing with a woman who has been raped (has problems) and it won’t end well.
I hope you’re not considering having any kids with this one.
@Sun @Softek (et al) “Watching your posts on here feels like I’m getting a visit from the Ghost of Relationships Past.” Yup, I just wrote a post to that effect on the previous thread. No need to repost here, it’s at: https://therationalmale.com/2016/04/04/damaged-goods/comment-page-5/#comment-151581 Seeing the way the patterns work themselves out over and over…it can be uncanny. This is true for men (as I tried to illustrate in the linked post) but also for women. My old oneitis keeps on re-enacting the same relationship over and over – meed LSE guy, both fall hard, she wrests frame from them (her go-to… Read more »
“Dread game should strike FEAR into the heart of your FB/Gf/whatever. it should make her be nicer to you and go more out of her way for you. a woman who reacts to Dread with non-verbal ‘bring it the fuck on’ sub-coms….is a girl who’s more trouble than she’s worth.”
love it, Scray. think WWSD?
combine this with the “rolodex” idea and as long as your girl’s rolodex includes stuff you really like (bjs, hot sex, threesomes, food, pampering in my case) then girls are basically a simple input/output system
input dread, receive excellence
dread game rules
It’s funny how “it shouldn’t matter who the father is”,…unless of course the father is 1/64th Choctaw indian:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/appeal-filed-in-native-american-child-custody-case-lexi-choctaw/
Softek – Just to add a few simple observations. She’s playing you, like a trout fisherman plays a fish in a lake. That stinging in your lip? It’s her hook. She’s manipulating you like a marionette, where your every body part is tied to a string. That tug on your dick? It’s one of her strings. She’s pitting you against one of her beta orbiters. At some point, she’ll play “Let’s You And Him Fight”, and maybe it’ll be him showing up to pound on you for some imagined “abuse” you did to her. Yes, it can happen to you.… Read more »
. . . the girl will live with a Utah couple who are not Native Americans but are related by marriage to her father.
Imagine if courts were to decide that since it is in the child’s best interest to know his/her ancestry, therefore all infants must receive DNA testing, and birth certificates must state the biological father (if known) or “unknown” if not.
Well, no, that could not happen. Could it?
Thanks for reply, Driver. It’s just weird that there was never any crying before. I’ve been with this girl three years, and it’s just happened two or three times in last year. And besides this issue, she’s one of the least fucked up women I’ve met. She isn’t trying to get money out of me, is totally in love with me and seems to be cool with maintaining a relationship in which is open for me but not for her, because like most women actually in love with men she doesn’t want to fuck anyone else, she just doesn’t want… Read more »
I am pleased that you (Rollo) picked up on the newly revealed cuckoldry meted out to the late Mr Welby (The Archbishop’s Dad). Picture it: the year is 1956 – pre-pill (but Condoms or withdrawal?) – and yet either immediately before or immediately after the wedding the new Mrs Welby is shagging the Alpha Cad who either cannot or will not marry her and yet she lets him ejaculate in her – and unlike his son he does look like a cad – perhaps more or less as Ian Fleming imagined Bond. She says that, admitting to her slut-dom, she… Read more »
In need of advice, would like you guys opinion on something that happened this weekend. English is not my native language, so please bear with me. Context: I’m 27, she’s 23, together 1 year. I’d rate her HB7 lookswise. She is very good to me, submissive, always wanting to please me. The one flaw that I found out about this weekend: Jealousy. I set up to meet with a mixed group of friends I met in January, coming here from the neighbouring cities. In this group of friends there is a girl, 18yo HB8, typical Beverly Hills estereotype, that according… Read more »
There are lies, damned lies and statistics, or so the saying goes. Choose the right area to do that study and presto, a 2% cuckold factor. My sister ran a couple military baby wards, and her observation was that 16% of the babies were obviously not related to the ‘father’ from blood type alone. Her belief was that the rate was double that. That’s not representative of the US in general, but I don’t believe the 2% is either. I’d also like to note that cuckoldry was endemic in medieval Europe. Droit du seigneur, jus primae noctis, however you might… Read more »
Rollo, that’s fucking mindblowing! 1/64th?!? WTF!
I’m 1/16th Choctaw and have the paperwork to prove it but I have no intentions of going ‘tribal’… I’m very comfortable being a old, marginalized white guy.
@Anon What to do when you try dread (soft-dread I guess, since I’ve done absolutely nothing to prompt it) and the GF responds with extreme jealousy? Uhh… well not this: We talked and she wanted me to reaffirm that I felt nothing for HB8, so I did it. Punish her bad behavior. Tease her about her jealousy. Don’t give her the answer she wants. Get angry/make up sex out of the deal. “How are you going to keep me from feeling anything from her?” Whatever you do, don’t capitulate. She wants you to be so high value that other attractive… Read more »
“Somehow I got what I wanted (pleasant GF) by dropping it . . .” No. She became “pleasant” because she got what she wanted. . . . in the end I agreed not to talk to HB8 again. And dug yourself a hole you will have a great deal of difficulty climbing out of again. You ceded her power. This power is now the rule in your relationship. Furthermore, you positively reinforced her tactic for acquiring that power. Expect a lot more of it. Any unpleasantness you would have faced is going to pale to that in your future should… Read more »
I’m just trying to figure out this stupid crying thing. Like is it related to the time she was raped, like she isn’t feeling like having sex at that moment but is doing it because she knows she has to to please me, and it’s reminding her of that time? It’s fucked up. But I know that me talking with her won’t help it. You’ll probably never know. I agree that talking about it with her would be a bad idea, so that’s out. Otherwise, it’s just guesses. It could be related to her rape, but if it’s only happened… Read more »
Softek —
Just to join the chorus here …
That girl is bad news. Hard to say if she’s borderline or not, but regardless she’s playing you like a fiddle. She’s obviously well advanced in manipulation, and you’re not going to get anywhere good with a woman like that. Even if you were more of an expert manipulator/frame-maintainer, you still want to stay away from a woman like that — too much brain damage when there are plenty of other women who are not that level of crazy. Cut things off. You’ll thank yourself later.
It seems to me, in a cuck situation, that not only does the woman hit the jackpot of both good genes and provisioning, but so does the alpha; his child is also getting provisioning without having to do anything to ensure it. And from what I read, actual parenting has nothing to do with how a child grows up (excluding actual abuse). It’s genetics all the way. The 1-2% cuck rate is also telling, since that seems to also be the percentage of men who are rapists, and is also the estimate rate of psychopathy in the population. And it… Read more »
@ Tweel,
I would believe a much higher rate with babies born in a military hospital. As a veteran and also a man who has lived next to and worked on a military base for 25 years, there is no doubt in my mind that military wives are the most likely to screw around than any other group of women.
Tweel Choose the right area to do that study and presto, a 2% cuckold factor. Exactly. Experiment design and data set selection are a key part of any rigorous study. The method matters. That is a weakness of meta-studies, worst case they wind up with an average of averages, this has no real meaning. My sister ran a couple military baby wards, and her observation was that 16% of the babies were obviously not related to the ‘father’ from blood type alone There would probably not be any funding in acadamia to study births in the military, because the results… Read more »
Thanks, Novaseeker. I’ll probably choose to ignore the situation/pretend it didn’t happen for now and hope it doesn’t happen again. We had sex earlier that day and it was great. That’s what’s so weird about it.
As I said, besides the couple crying episodes throwing me for a loop, she’s a good woman. Some of my half to mostly beta friends have said they wished their girlfriends were more like her. And beta friends, they’re good people but can be down right embarrassing to go out with. Sucks not having alphas to hit the town with.
“My sister ran a couple military baby wards, and her observation was that 16% of the babies were obviously not related to the ‘father’ from blood type alone. Her belief was that the rate was double that.” banker cannon fodder (per kissinger) is as beta as it gets. max cuck rate of 33% sounds realistic. so overall cuck rate anywhere from 2%-33%. actually, being an expendable super beta and still having a 67% chance of being the bio father is really pretty good. chicks are pretty generous with their “precious” eggs. the “i like a man in uniform” girl really… Read more »
@anon with benefits “In this group of friends there is a girl, 18yo HB8, typical Beverly Hills estereotype, that according to my GF, seemed interested in me. I saw her behavior as normal hot girl shooting for hypergamy: always fishing for orbiters, while having an alpha boyfriend, casually forgotten when convenient. She might have showed covert interest, but despite she being hot, I’m not really interested, mainly because of her behavior, also partially because she lives in another city and I wouldn’t accept an LTR. I also believe I handled her shit well, not letting her put me in orbiter… Read more »
@scray
> “if you balk at her control, then she’ll say ‘oh shit….’ if you don’t, then she’s like ‘awww phew.”
Ummm … “balking” at her control is not the right concept here …
*mercilessly shut down*
THAT produces results.
@tom
lol you guys…
Scray’s hitting it with all cylinders today. “she’s fucking this guy and trying to manage you both (or shit, maybe there’s more). ASK ME HOW I KNOW” Heh, good call. I mean, maybe she’s not banging him on the regular, but she’s certainly doing whatever’s needed to keep him on the hook. Carrot and stick. Very likely she’s doling out sexual favors occasionally just to give him a taste, maybe she let things go in a ‘it just happened’ context once or twice, whatever the minimum amount is she can give to keep him orbiting. And then that lets her… Read more »
@Tom
Weeelll….
Not like there’s never a time for that, but if you ‘mercilessly shut down’ a mild frame grab it does make you look a bit high-strung. Like, how does it look if someone teases you and you just flip the fuck out and beat their face in to SHOW THEM!
If someone just tries to grab the frame from you in a kinda testing-the-waters fashion like this, just act like they’re maybe being a little weird.
@softek I actually understand why you fell like keeping her around. I get it; she’s fucking you, she’s turned on the charm makes you feel good about your self, she “accepts you for who you are” plus the massages (brah i def get that, I’m a fan of twice monthly body work) I mean again if she was doing this from purely a place of caring and goodness, it’d be all good. But she’s not, and you clearly see that, and have articulated that in your comments, you see through that shit which is good! The thing about the BPDs.… Read more »
@softek.. cosign scray’s analysis.
Again stay strong dude, you have a serious advantage with your.. rational understanding of whats going on.. thats half the battle imho.
“Even for the most fortified dude interacting for a long enough time with a disordered personality will still wear you down drip by fucking drip. you can’t win this one.” Yes. It’s basically just entropy. A toxic person (read – personality disordered) will slowly wear down a healthy person, even as they are never brought up by the healthy person. It’s a one-way street. So how do you tell who’s a toxic person? There are people that can be taught, who can learn to be better. There are some people who just need to learn better relationship skills. They tend… Read more »
@forge “Yes. It’s basically just entropy. A toxic person (read – personality disordered) will slowly wear down a healthy person, even as they are never brought up by the healthy person. It’s a one-way street. So how do you tell who’s a toxic person?” these terms are too slippery. there are just psychologically strong people and psychologically weaker people. now, some people have “advantages” you may not have. like if X comes from a broken home and has 20 years experience dealing with this kind of ‘anything goes burn it to the ground’ mindset….and you’re Mr. ‘I started watching RSD… Read more »
Thankyou for this article! I shared it with a friend of mine who is knowingly raising another mans kid. I know he will probably never read it or even understand half of it. But he has been getting more and more unhappy every year that passes and I wasn´t even the first one to notice. I will probably have to have an honest talk with him and risk our friendship, but I know the guy for over 20 years and he doesnt need to be in that situation. Big Hug
Might want to tell Softek about your triage quote Rollo.
People forget Tyson was more than just a guy who hits hard. His defense was on point.
“We are all like little wizards hiding behind our pseudonyms.”
Not really NBTM. I really would tag a girl in the butt with a water cannon at the water park.
@Softie – Next time you see your GF, imagine this is her face. http://uploads.neatorama.com/images/posts/469/57/57469/1358146554-0.jpg Save yourself 20+ years that many of us wasted, trying to reason with the hamster. You are getting excellent advice. I can only add this. You are monogamous, you do get that, yes? I find it bizarre watching you talk about how you constantly tell her you won’t commit to her but you don’t even approach other women, no less fuck any of them. She’s also renting a huge amount of space in your head, you have lost being your own mental point of origin. Oneitis,… Read more »
From Dalrock’s article:
” maybe, God help you, you got involved with a boy who could shave, where you got caught up with a guy who looked like a man but ended up not being one, and now you have a child, God is going to enter that space and he’s going to be merciful and gracious. So don’t lose heart.”
😧😒….I mean…I can’t.
“His deepest identity isn’t about which man was his father, but who his heavenly Father is.”
😂😂😂😂😂
As Brick Top from “Snatch” said, “In the quiet words of the virgin mary, ‘come again’?”