The Price of Nice


Price-of-nice

Well, dammit, here we go again. Just as I’m mid-way through another in-depth post I get stopped by something I can’t ignore. The above ‘post’ has been making the rounds on Twitter and more than a few in the ‘sphere have asked me for my take.

I probably would’ve just blown this off along with the few hundred other incidences of Beta guys (really Average Frustrated Chump in this instance) bemoaning the same lack of cooperation on the part of women to play along with their investment in the old set of books, that was however until I read through the predictable ‘Nice Shaming’ of Mark Pygas here.

“Good guys” are the absolute worst. If you’re going to go on an insane rant every time a woman tells you ‘no,’ you’re not a good guy.

Tumblr user Fenrufenrifenny recently spotted a flyer posted all around town that shamed women for not giving the “good guys a chance” and choosing “scum” men. Just a brief warning, it will probably be the worst thing you’ve ever read.

Proxy male femsplaining aside, no Mark, this isn’t worst thing I’ve ever read from a Nice Guy. In fact, just three years ago the ‘Nice Guys of OK Cupid‘ blog/hashtag made a point of running these Good Guys up the flagpole for the exact same frustrations of dealing with women in the most deductive, old rules way they’ve been taught to deal with women by their own words and conditioning.

You aren’t an original Mark, Hugo Schwyzer beat you to the Nice-Shaming-As-Beta-Game 4 years ago. And just like Hugo you make the same predictable assumptions about men expecting sex for niceties in an era where women exploit and advertise that men doing more chores and making women’s lives easier will lead to sex.

You see shaming Nice Guys for playing by the rules every woman has told him he ought to play by – since his single-mother or feminized father mentioned he should respect women by default to him since 5 years old – is the height of Hypergamous hypocrisy. Every time a woman, or a Vichy Male femsplainer, tells a guy “just be yourself‘ or “women love men who respect women” or in some other way convince him that women’s intimacy is best achieved by being the sensitive, understanding and supportive Beta they’ll need once they can no longer attract an Alpha asshole, all you do is reinforce the Nice Guy you now hate so much.

You see, you don’t get it both ways. You can’t shame and heap derision upon a Nice Guy for believing the same Old Books horse shit you’ve taught him will earn a woman’s favor and love. You don’t get to call him duplicitous when he believes all the “just be yourself” and “in the end women really want Nice men” tropes he’s been fed by the media mouths of a society that’s founded on women’s Hypergamy.

You may think this is some new development, but Nice Shaming has been going on for at least the 4 and a half years I’ve been blogging:

When truly nice guys (80-90% of the masculine sphere) read a line like “Nice Guys are the real jerks” something snaps in their heads. Black is white, up is down and Nice Guys are Jerks. Most Nice Guys have been playing the self-internalized Beta Game, identification scenario out for so long that to read something like this is akin to blaspheme. “Great now all these women I’ve been trying to be so nice too (like they all say they want) really think I’m a jerk?” One would think this would be a moment of clarity for the Nice Guy and he’d realize the truth of what his ‘misogynist’ Game-aware friends had been trying to enlighten him about for so long.

It’s almost like I have to revisit this Nice Guy paradox ever two years or so:

The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head.

That sounds horrible, but the truth often is. Women’s lack of appreciation for the more compassionate natures of men, and their consuming regard for rewarding men that appease their hypergamy is so well proven it’s become predictable enough to develop techniques and behavioral modifications to exploit it (i.e. Game). Most guys would like nothing better than to honestly play the loving, white knight, romantic who women bemoan a lack of in the world. Yet for every sonnet composed, every provision met, every compliment delivered and every well planned candlelit dinner conversation, there’s a woman feverishly fucking her Alpha bad boy in his low rent apartment for fear of losing him to the competition.
However, all that reviewed, it’s good to return to the issues that never really die off, and particularly so in the case of Nice Shaming because as we progress further into a social order that’s become increasingly more comfortable in openly, proudly, embracing Hypergamy the more poignant messages like the one in this posted letter are. Really it’s nothing new for a guy steeped in Blue Pill conditioning to be frustrated with the new set of books on display right before his eyes, but as Open Hypergamy becomes more and more unignorable in real-space as well as in media and open expressions of it, the less men will vent these frustrations so publicly.
The time to worry wont be when guys post open letters like this in dorm hallways, the time to worry is when that ceases altogether.
Women’s continued inability to really understand why a Nice Guy would ever be so frustrated as to post a notice like this only highlights an obliviousness that serves their Hypergamous imperatives. In other words it’s not in women’s Hypergamous interests to understand or sympathize with a guy who’s brought their sexual strategy out into the open.
The reason Nice Shaming still persists after decades is that it actually serves the Feminine Imperative. If you read through the Twitter responses to this note they are all identical to, or variations of the response I’ve outlined in my previous ‘Nice’ guy posts for almost 5 years now. And if this doesn’t convince you that women have a vested interest in not getting why a guy would post such frustration, you can just read the real-time posted response to it:
price-of-nice_2

Dear Sir,

If you’re watching some girl you like getting hurt by another guy STOP WHINING ABOUT IT AND DO SOMETHING. Don’t leave some anonymous note on a dorm wall. If you know someone is being hurt DO. SOME. THING.

If you want to play the “good guy” you need to rethink your intentions. If you’re only doing it for gratification, then you aren’t being the good guy. Did Batman give up on Gotham because people weren’t thanking him for saving the city?

You know what I really want? I want respect. I want people to respect that I’d rather not walk with a stranger in the middle of the night. I want people to respect that I can defend myself. I want people to respect that WOMEN CAN DO THINGS WITHOUT A GENTLEMAN TO HELP.

You want to be a gentlemen and a good guy? Start with changing the way you and other men see women. We aren’t fragile things you need to defend. We’re people. Keep holding doors open, keep being friendly, just don’t expect things in return; you aren’t owed anything by this world.

If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.

The obliviousness to the original message might seem staggering until you consider that it was likely typed out by a woman with a self-impression of female empowerment. The idea she’s addressing is that it’s the Nice Guy’s fault for not stepping in to “do something” while simultaneously claiming that “women can do things without a man’s help”. That alone would be enough to illustrate the mindset that would respond to a Nice Guy bemoaning women’s duplicity about ‘being Nice’, but she continues to miss the point that the dutiful ‘helping’ he’s offering isn’t help at all, but his disillusionment with his Blue Pill conditioning.

It’s likely he’s oblivious to it, but he’s publicly taken a step into Red Pill awareness and in doing so reveals women’s Hypergamous duplicity. Now, that is what it is, but that step into Red Pill awareness is something that makes women very uncomfortable when they don’t control the narrative about their own Hypergamy. It’s one thing to make Hypergamy ‘open’ in a commercial or in a book by an empowered woman, but let a man reveal it in his perspective and he’s “bitter” or it’s an “insane rant” by a Nice Guy who’s only Nice because he thinks it’ll get him laid.

As I was saying, in the future I expect to see less Nice Shaming as the machinations of Hypergamy becomes part of men’s popular consciousness. The result, like most others brought on by feminine social primacy, will be men taking women at their word – “women can do things without a man’s help” and they “aren’t fragile things you need to defend” – and they’ll get the men they deserve; men who will understand that niceties aren’t in fact exchangeable for appreciation, intimate or otherwise. Their attentions, courtesies and help will be reserved for the women who actually deserve and reciprocate it rather than due to it being some default chivalry that’s expected of them. And they’ll abandon the strong independent women (and even the ones who look like them) to their fates, while they cry about the lack of self-sacrificing ‘real men’ to love and help them when it’s convenient for them.

It’ll take a while. Obviously the same Nice Shaming from a decade ago still manifests like this occasionally, and the predictable “women don’t owe you sex” indignation is still the reflexive response. But as the old exchanges of the old rules are cycled out for the cruel, but accepted, realities that the Red Pill outlines, women will get exactly the men they deserve. Men who will give them respect based on their real personal merits and only offer niceties to the ones who wont spit in their faces or accuse them of sexual harassment for doing so.

As it stands now, Nice Shaming serves as a filter for women’s Hypergamy. The guys who Just Get It don’t post notes like this. Guys who get it learn from that frustration, they adapt, they experiment, they adjust and they develop Game to exploit the real intersexual rules in play, and they don’t make grandiose displays of the real game.

635 comments

  1. I’m always baffled at what circulates around the internet. My gut is to say that some feminazi wrote this up in her spare time to spark some drama on social media.

    Regardless, today’s AFC, while possibly more aware of the dynamics of the sexual marketplace than ten years ago, does not necessarily foster the growth or self-awareness needed to attract quality women. Even with Red Pill exposure, nothing guarantees that an AFC will successfully swallow the pill and internalize what they need to. IMO, I believe they lean toward MGTOW and take what they can get with women even if they end up hooking up with the dumpster slut that outweighs them by two stone. Thus, while Nice Shaming may become less prevalent, Blue Pill conditioning is not going anywhere. It is so heavily ingrained in media/schooling/regular conversation that young men are conditioned to believe that “getting lucky” is the highest reward in life, even if that means becoming a doormat for the aforementioned dumpster slut.

    “In other words it’s not in women’s Hypergamous interests to understand or sympathize with a guy who’s brought their sexual strategy out into the open.”

    This is an excellent point, Rollo. Women also don’t need to understand it either. While they may engage in some hamster-driven discussion publicly, their actions will show otherwise when they continue to go for the guys that already understand and effectively utilize Game.

  2. Ah, I remember these days. All the sweet, sweet indignation.

    As a data point – I can remember feeling like the dude who wrote this, but I’m having difficulty really empathizing at this point. I mean, I SYMPATHIZE but it just doesn’t compute at some level. This attitude is just unproductive and sad and angry.

    I used to be emotional about a lot of things. Now I’m not so much. I suppose this is an example of the phenomenon you predict – that men will, as they become more aware, express themselves less in gut-wrenching rants and just allocate their attention differently.

  3. I suppose the weirdest thing, looking at this from the outside, is just the utter diconnect in communication on display. I mean, I expect it knowing what I do, but it is pretty fucking weird when you think about it – just the total non-sequitur in the replies to this screed. Like their brain literally just….skipped the point, wouldn’t let them see it.

    That’s really the most frustrating part for the AFC. And it was one of the last things I learned. I remember I sat down my old gf, and spent about an hour going through the dynamics at play and why leaving me was irrational, and watching her just sort of take the things that agreed with her emotions and just sort of….skip the rest. And then I was like, welp. I guess it’s all true.

    It’s better this way in the end though. That allowed me to stop viewing conversations as being logical processes and treat them like the dance they are.

    Who knew that talking to people could just be FUN? Lol.

  4. @Forge the Sky

    “I used to be emotional about a lot of things. Now I’m not so much. I suppose this is an example of the phenomenon you predict – that men will, as they become more aware, express themselves less in gut-wrenching rants and just allocate their attention differently.”

    I’ve certainly gotten way past the kind of frustration that a guy like this feels, but I think that just comes with the experience of seeing female behavior patterns repeated over and over again until you know what to expect. When you realize women function as amoral opportunists in practice (regardless of the “Old Books” horseshit we see all over as Rollo put it), why would it still bother you?

    You’re better off being a pragmatist and accepting the world as it is.

  5. @Forge

    Yeah I mostly agree. I mean, I get where their indignation comes from. What person wouldn’t want to live in a world where the most pleasant way to go through life – be friendly, respectful, kind, and gentle to everyone and they’ll do the same for you – would also lead to a loving long term relationship with a supportive partner? I mean really, hypergamy is on its face the rejection of a way of living that really seems like a no-brainer. Why would you seek out people who don’t live that way, in effect complicating your own life on purpose?

    Granted, now that I have a framework to understand the “why”, I no longer feel the anger. There are still times though while I’m learning Game that I wish I could just default to being genuinely nice. It takes less energy. It entails less risk. Hell, it’s still easier as a reaction just due to decades of conditioning.

    I feel for these guys, as much as some of TRP community hates them. I just hope that each of them can find what I have and move on. Maybe (hopefully) they’ll be a lot better and faster learning at Game than I am, but at the very least my wish for them is that they’ll find relief from the anger that I’ve found.

    Nice Shaming, as repulsive as it is in its perverse hatred, is the first step to finding the path. I hope the guy that wrote that note can find the hidden message instead of just seeing the cunty behavior the Nice Shamers engage in and letting anger get the better of him.

  6. for fucks sake breh did this really necessitate a 9000 line essay?
    little piece of paper got u actin like a female.
    who gives a shit.
    and WTF is with this “SHAMING” shit.

  7. It hurts to see you fall.

    “Fall” provokes “lol” in girls.

    Give the good guys a chance to make you be less afraid of the world.”

    Hamsterlation: We wanna White Knight for you against those bad boy date rapers.

    If you know someone is being hurt DO. SOME. THING.

    One word. Laundry.

    If you want to play the “good guy” you need to rethink your intentions. If you’re only doing it for gratification, then you aren’t being the good guy.

    Hamsterlation: “Alpha fux only. But we still want you available for white knighting and doing chores and giving us stuff. With no expectation of sex in return, of course.”

    I want people to respect that I can defend myself.

    Hamsterlation: “I live in a fantasy. I believe that I’m Wonder Woman. I have no fucking clue how dangerous thugs can be.”

    If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.

    Hamsterlation: “I have no idea what needs to be done, but I’ll go along with it as long as I get my alpha fux. And maybe more stuff.”

    Female strategy is still to keep betas working off of the obsolete set of books.

  8. He is even being shamed for the fact that he used black duct tape to hang the note, because, ya know, “symbology” and shit.

    My guess would be that he’s a theater/film major (creative, sensitive type) and black gaffer tape is simply what came immediately to hand.

  9. Calibration is key. I am a “nice guy” to girls I’m gaming. But the point is not to either over-do it…or be “nice” in order to get something.

    There’s a series on Netflix I just finished watching called “Love”. It was cringe-worthy because the lead character Gus is a “nice” guy who’s Gamma most of the time. He bangs the hot Borderline Mickey who at first wants a dick but only when he stops calling because he inexplicably begins banging the other hot actress on set, drives Mickey crazy.

    From a Red Pill perspective the show is fascinating. On one level the producers want to offer hope to the Gammas and Betas of the world that they too can bang a hot chick if they’re just “nice”.

    But in one scene the Borderline Mickey calls him “fake nice” in her anger over his disappearances.

    Rather than being accommodating and nice….find a way to be authentic: vulnerability is ok, passion is ok as long as it comes from a position of authenticity.

  10. @Forge and Sun Wukong

    Forge: “And it was one of the last things I learned. I remember I sat down my old gf, and spent about an hour going through the dynamics at play and why leaving me was irrational, and watching her just sort of take the things that agreed with her emotions and just sort of….skip the rest.”

    Sun: “Granted, now that I have a framework to understand the “why”, I no longer feel the anger. There are still times though while I’m learning Game that I wish I could just default to being genuinely nice. It takes less energy. It entails less risk. Hell, it’s still easier as a reaction just due to decades of conditioning.

    I feel for these guys, as much as some of TRP community hates them. I just hope that each of them can find what I have and move on.”

    It is certainly odd, but understandable how the female mind goes down when we get enough red pill awareness from TRM and Rollo. In parallel with this odd behavior of the woman’s response in the original post, the last essay by Illimitable Man (bless his soul across the pond he seems to be in a parallel universe with Rollo) talks about the incongruency of the things you guys are done lamenting–and props for working through your Kubler-Ross stages.

    So one cunning and pervasive tendency of women cut-and-pasted from here:

    http://illimitablemen.com/2016/03/16/understanding-female-psychology/

    “When women talk about women, they project rather than investigate because they’re prone to emotional solipsism, not rational investigation. Solipsism is the core base of all female behaviour, it is the intrinsic way of being, the very foundation on which the female’s other psychological aspects spawn. Women with little power and low self-esteem are solipsistic and prone to infantile narcissism, those with high self-esteem and great power are grandiosely narcissistic, meaning they possess a characteristically masculine are arrogance and detachment.

    Where solipsism is her internal dialogue and mode of thought, its external counterpart is infantile narcissism, women’s insecurity of her relative inferiority to man, and dependence on men. If one analyses the thinking of the feminist movement for a second, a great part of it fixates on “empowering women by granting them independence.”

    This suggests a few things, that firstly, women do not possess the ability or desire to take independence for themselves and so need powerful politicians to legally mandate it. And secondly, I think it is a macro manifestation of the quintessential feminine insecurity that a woman is all too aware of her reliance on men for both economic and emotional support.

    Women are deadly, yet needy. They have always needed men and still do, and it is in the infantile stubbornness of femininity that a resentment brews for this biologically ordained neediness. Even the women who do well to provide themselves always end up requiring a man who earns more than they, who is mentally stronger than they, and so on. A woman is hypergamous by her very nature, and thus much to the disdain of her insecurity, requires male superiority in order to even find men attractive.

    The topic of feminine infantile narcissism presents the perfect opportunity to explore why women are more inherently cunning than are men.

    It is because women are so incredibly aware of their heightened neediness relative to men that they develop an intrinsic penchant for cunning. They are all too aware the depth and breadth of assistance they require from the opposite sex is greater than the inverse, and it is this position which in large part fuels their motive for manipulating as a way of life.

    Women are in a position of neediness, and yet they cannot fully trust men to give them what they need, so they manipulate men in order to give them what they want, but then resent the men who fall prey to such devices. This phenomenon alone should explain to you the mental hell women occupy, and explain much of their external craziness.

    Even the sweetest, kindest, best raised woman is a cunning creature, for it is in the insecurity inherent to reliance, that a woman protects herself via the impassioned practice of cunning. I believe that where nature gave man superior strength, women were bestowed pathological cunning. Unfortunately, what was granted to be used as a means of defence is often in practice, used for anything but.

    Infantile as they are, women are ill-equipped to handle power, and that which is born out of the insecurity that a man may do her wrong, turns into an exploitative, predatory misuse of power that fuels grandiose narcissism, and thus masculinises her. The aforementioned relationships between the different aspects of the female psyche do not explain in it in its entirety, but nonetheless, should accurately depict its root and core.”

    So Game on Guys!

    Embrace the Masculine and love the Feminine (if you can find it….).

  11. @walawala You touched on a point that I was going to make. “Nice” is not the antithesis to getting laid. Neither is being an asshole a guarantee that one gets laid. It is perfectly fine, probably even helpful in one’s sexual quests, to be nice to girls. But, if the niceness is all a guy has then a girl is not going to consider him sexually viable. He has to have a ferocity also.

    I know it’s a small detail but I think it is important for guys new to the redpill to take note of. You don’t have to be a serial killer to be an Alpha. You can actually be a well-mannered gentleman. But, you must be a well-mannered gentleman who could kill something if he had to (or more practically, be willing to hurt a bitch’s feelings).

  12. To use an analogy, just like the fiscal policies of ZIRP and QE has created market distortions and a massive misallocation of capital and resources, perhaps the same can be said of the current SMP. So here we are dealing with a distorted SMP and the rational response (or feedback loop) is to make some adjustments: detach from the meme’s, tropes, schemas, ect, MIGTOW for some, become a player, become a better man, acquire the dark arts of learned charisma and so on. I’m not sure how to answer to your observation Rollo on how divided (like politics have become) as to how M\F polarization will swing the other way, sorta like the current state of party politics, or Fed policy guess we need an utter collapse to clear out the burned out forest.

  13. I am a recovering nice guy, and I approve this message.

    I have banged on about this previously, but a few years back Cathi Hanauer did a book of essays, “The Bitch In The House”. In which the authoresses lament that they got the men they demanded – helpful supplicating choreplayers and stay at home duds – which, having won what they wanted, really really pissed them off.

    Available at your friendly 99 cent beat up table: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+bitch+in+the+house

    Hot off the presses is Rebecca Traister’s sociology tract “All the Single Ladies”, promoting, uh, let me see, it’ll come to me in a second, single ladies. She has a chapter on marriage and datng trends in which gets the Japanese “grass-eater” no-sex-please-we’re-Japanese movement 100% wrong. It’s their rigid gender roles that made this happen, she says. In the West, straight folk are happily coupling just fine because we are more Liberated (TM). Do tell? Like the grass-eater thing isn’t happening here?

  14. “I’m not sure how to answer to your observation Rollo on how divided (like politics have become) as to how M\F polarization will swing the other way, sorta like the current state of party politics, or Fed policy guess we need an utter collapse to clear out the burned out forest.”

    One friendly reminder: Rollo has un-waveringly without saying it so overtly advocated a bottoms up approach to men developing red-pill awareness and game.

    A top down approach to utter collapse is too unpredictable. And not in the control of a singular man.

    And some with wealth or assets would have a fair amount to lose by the utter collapse route. A man that has nothing has little to lose and can abide by an utter collapse.

    Short story. If you have little, you have little to lose. You got a crappy house, let it burn. You got a magnificent place, don’t let it burn and adapt. That is what red pill awareness and game are for. That is why the manosphere was invented.

    The same way you will notice that dog owner’s operate. It was observed by a friend of mine, that another friend (of his and mine) ran into a situ where he allowed a “plate” woman to bring an unruly pit-bull dog into his house. The plate was certainly a good piece, but she was demonstrating her lack of downside here. The dog was unruly and mean. Who does that?

    A person that doesn’t have a lot to lose because they don’t have much to begin with. She was exerting her Frame. Marking her territory and the dog was a terror. Guest were advised to “not look at the dog”. Or else. It was laughable on the part of her indiscretion here. But she had low downside and was making a statement. I’m in charge here and I have low downside and no significant amount of liability in the matter of my dog tearing off someones leg. No fucking downside.

    Why not choose a breed and a dog well bred that has low downside? You do that if you have a lot to lose from not choosing wisely and treating kindly.

  15. Agreed. It was the mindset of the woman. It was her Frame. But she was also a demographic woman (cough, cough….25 years his junior prone to addictions, cough, cough crack whore secretly, but cough, cough, a wonderful dick-wetter, she struck me as very feminine) that had that mindset.

    Nothing left to lose is a terrible mindset to subscribe to– Was my point.

    But I don’t know anything about that. I’m stoic. Low downside, high upside in mentality. But I’ve always been partial to having stuff. That I don’t want burned down.

    And damn, I miss that Vulpine guy. He taught me a valuable lesson. Don’t let your shit own you. Thank god for the manosphere. You learn this shit.

  16. “If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.”

    Well, this is the ultimate in solipsism, with stunning ignorance of the scope and complexity of modern society. Whoever wrote it assumed that what they feel and think is so important, so infallible, and so out of their own control, that the ‘world’, which no one individual, much less a group, has any control over, would be easier to change. And indeed, that the world could be changed to accommodate their needs.

    I used to get bewildered at this level of narcissism. Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm now.

  17. I’ve been startled several times by the sheer _venom_ with which women react to this kind of thing. They are actively, physically, _repulsed_ by the notion that a nice man who tries to be a good person should expect to ever have a satisfying sex life. The very idea is horrifying and hateful to women, and they respond with incoherent anger.

  18. “I want people to respect that I’d rather not walk with a stranger in the middle of the night.”
    .
    What? This is hilarious. Must be a sleepwalker prone to pad out of her safe space.

  19. “Nothing left to lose is a mindset, not a demographic.”

    Certain demographics certainly have certain mindsets. (heheh, Heartiste and Politics).

    The original post is about a mindset of women in regards to the AFC nice guy. But is also about a demographic.

    It would be nice if it were more mindset and non-demographic.

    Shit, Alan Watts said:

    “My wish would be to tell, not how things ought to be, but how they are, and how and why we ignore them as they are. You cannot teach an ego to be anything but egotistic, even though egos have the subtlest ways of pretending to be reformed. “

    The incident with my dick-wetting friend was a demographic. And a mindset of Frame-keeping by her. I don’t judge him or her. (he was fucked over by his wife walking away with a large frivorce settlement and he wasn’t suffering from the dick wetting). And I don’t know at this point how things are fairing.

    Demographics beget mindsets.

  20. “Nothing left to lose is a terrible mindset to subscribe to–”

    It is the mindset of survivors. The graveyards are full of people who died needlessly over pointless stuff.

    You are on the street. Someone walks up to you and says, “The secret police are on the way to your house to disappear you. 3, 2, 1 . . . Go!”

    The feminine nester goes . . . home. Straight to her demise.

    The masculine stoic warrior goes. With what is on his person if he has to, or to his safe house to grab his go bag if he can, but he goes.

    Stuff comes, stuff goes. Stuff can be replaced so long as you are still alive and fighting.

    “But I’ve always been partial to having stuff. That I don’t want burned down.”

    So am I. I own a house. Victorian. My grandmother and mother died in this house (my mother last week, in my arms). It has stuff going back to my great grand parents in it. But great grandma’s great grand child would be more valuable to her than her cream pitcher.

    I may well die in this house myself, but I will not die needlessly over it. Its value is in that it houses me. If there is no me, there is no value in the house.

    “3, 2, 1 . . .Go!,” and I’m gone, to start over somewhere else. Because I can.

    Do you have your stuff, or does your stuff have you?

  21. “…mother died in this house (my mother last week, in my arms).”

    Condolences.

    And even though we are conversing publicly, let me state that your mental point of origin teachings are wonderful. Thank you.

    My father died a year ago and he, my mother and I are no worse for the wear because of the congruency and honest living of his and our lives. He died on his expiration date. Not too soon. Not to late. Good man and not bad at being a man. I think my mother may set some longevity records genes and habits and all.

    Repeat:

    http://freenortherner.com/2012/09/06/die-when-youre-done/

    Hope the same was your experience.

    I think we overposted, I agree with and have been instructed by the manosphere, thanks to Vulpine last year, to not have my shit own me.

    Prior to a couple years ago, before the manosphere intervention, I didn’t get it. And without insight, I didn’t just get it.

    Having duly got the memo two years ago, I subscribe.

    Having stuff does not matter. And it should not own a man. So we are on the same page there.

    And your exhortations are sticking to the wall for me. Keep going.

    Thank you for being here KFG.

  22. Almost thought that was a joke when I read that AFC’s open letter. The chicks response steeped in feminism should be evidence that his approach is not working and time to stop being himself. He probably doesn’t know why he’s upset and she may not know why she is upset. The irony of it all.

  23. @scorpio… Girls are very often rude …shit testing… But as I become more Red Pill fluent…it’s clear that means they’re attracted.

    At a party the other week I have a designated table I always sit at. I moved to sit with a male friend of mind and mingle.

    “Get back to your end of the room” an ex ex gf said to me.

    “I sit where I like…they’re all my tables” I said.

    Was she being “nice”? My response has to be something …anything that asserted my position of Not caring.

    I’ve been called “enigmatic” by girls. I take that as a compliment.

  24. “Men who will give them respect based on their real personal merits and only offer niceties to the ones who wont spit in their faces or accuse them of sexual harassment for doing so.”
    Just spoke with my friend about his sexless marriage. Rollo your work makes me enjoy all aspects of my humanity. Hes struggling to get his sexual needs meet.
    Still brain storming ways to help out.

  25. “Did Batman give up on Gotham because people weren’t thanking him for saving the city?” I think I may have seen that episode somewheres either in the comics or the anime show. At least in in the Dark Knight movie we have this quote, “You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain.”
    If villains are getting all the good pussy, then goddammit I’m gonna be a villain!

  26. Permit me to take the note at face value.

    The women I hang with are smart, funny, cute (mostly), engaged, lively and capable, and they like all the things in the first paragraph.

    They ignore me. They include me. They take me swimwear shopping.
    Sometimes they make bad, bad choices in life and partners.
    When it suits them they fuck me, with humor and delight.

    I attribute my “access” and “success” to something simple:
    their reasons are None Of My Business.

  27. My last debt to the FI has been paid. My only regret that the payments were not a bit steeper. At least with regards to her children she always did her best to keep the Old World, first set of books and legitimately paid for what I owed her.

    Oddly enough, although I am the last survivor of my line, she was the first to go of her generation. Her three sisters, one older and currently driving around the country in her 40 ft. motor home, survive her. I thought she would outlive them all.

    She did not have a long period of deterioration. Just three years ago, at 80 years old, she was still riding the one speed bike I supplied her with three miles up out of the river valley to get her daily fresh vegetables. She had a rather minor auto accident 2 1/2 years ago, but was never the same after that. She stayed around almost exactly the length of time required to make sure that her estate would pass to me.

    She died as instantly as instantly can be, when it seems she felt she was done, as she wished to; she had a living will with a no cardiac resuscitation clause in it. She died exactly the way, in her own home, being waited on hand and foot by her first born son, that she had guaranteed she would be allowed to stay dead.

    In her last hours she was more concerned that she was being a burden on me than she was about her own condition.

    I’m a pretty unhappy camper at the moment, but it seems, in the end, she made one last gift to me. She set me free.

  28. “The time to worry wont be when guys post open letters like this in dorm hallways,the time to worry is when that ceases altogether.”

    When looking at historic parallels I stumbled upon this.
    From wickipedia
    “The Emperors,anxious for their personal safety and the public peace,were reduced to the base expedient of corrupting the discipline which rendered them alike formidable to their sovereign and to the enemy;The vigor of the military government was relaxed,and finaly dissolved by the partial institutions of Constantine and the Roman world was overwhelmed by barbarians,”

  29. @kfg

    (my mother last week, in my arms)

    I can think of few other ways a mother would rather go than being held by her son. It’s nice to hear that it ended that way. Good man.

    @All

    I have put up a fairly basic page for The Man Table. Links to download old shows and the scheduled time for the latest show are available, along with instructions on how to participate. Anyone planning to join next Saturday for recording should check it out.

  30. “. . . the Roman world was overwhelmed by barbarians,”

    . . . who were taken in as refugees. Good thing we have that example to go by and won’t let that sort of thing happen again.

  31. On one level we can all look at this as a screed of an AFC.
    But to me it’s the beginning of communal male understanding.

    This suffering man could have just shrugged and moved on. But no, he wrote down his pain and posted it publicly. And then someone saw it, snapped it and now it has a much wider distribution. Information is only viral when it has passed through the early adopters 2 sigma outside the mean.

    What you are seeing is the beginning of male hypergamy awareness.

    It only takes a few dudes noting the words and saying “ya know – I have seen this too”. For ideas to form, for awareness to begin, for a movement toward male empowerment.

    The girl’s response is classic western entitlement. “Make a world safer”, she says…

    All the while not realizing that SHE is IN the safest era in the history of women. And that safety was bought with the blood of men.

    Perhaps it is the way of civilizations. Create a stable society and culture so your women feel safe (of course only having one or no children). Safe to delay making solders to defend the gates. Then as the birth rate drops you allow a few others into your culture. Just a few, what harm can it cause? We need solders to guard the gates… why not a few barbarians? Then you get an Odoacer and all of the sudden the Empire falls. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer).

    One wonders if history is not about the fall of Empires but about the Betas deciding that it’s not worth defending the women anymore.

  32. “If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.” I am changing the world, and once it has changed, there is no going back to the way things were ever again. Count on it, bitch.

  33. @kfg

    Shit man. I actually kinda was wondering if something was up. Your writing always has perfectly distinctive voice and a few of them the past few days didn’t….

    She died in a manner few people are privileged to in these times. It sounds like it was an ending blessed by virtues long lived.

  34. >@Rollo: “Guys who get it learn from that frustration, they adapt, they experiment, they adjust and they develop Game to exploit the real intersexual rules in play, and they don’t make grandiose displays of the real game.

    > it’s not in women’s Hypergamous interests to understand or sympathize with a guy who’s brought their sexual strategy out into the open.”

    Words to live by Rollo. This is every bit as true in marriage, a LTR, or any other situation involving women. They know the game. They want YOU to know the game. They DO NOT want you to openly acknowledge that you know the game. Anything you do or say that interferes with the reality you must create for her (i.e. that you are a cool, confident dude who fucks her better than any other likely choice available to her) is terribly counterproductive.

    Thus the first thing we tell new guys:

    STFU and don’t even think about talking to your wife about your “changes.” Women talk. Men do. Actus Non Verba.

    That is the way of things.

    >@Trim said: “I’ve been startled several times by the sheer _venom_ with which women react to this kind of thing. They are actively, physically, _repulsed_ by the notion that a nice man who tries to be a good person should expect to ever have a satisfying sex life. The very idea is horrifying and hateful to women, and they respond with incoherent anger.”

    I cosign and offer into evidence the recent revelation (at least to me) that RPW’s DESPISE Married Red Pill for the EXACT reason you explain. Those damn Betas are waking up and now they are demanding sex as part of staying faithful in marriage? The audacity! Shouts of outrage bellow from every member of the herd whether Red or Blue…but that was never the issue. It was Balls or Eggs. It was always all about balls and eggs.

    @KFG: Props bro. Very inspiring writings. I can’t remember if you are one of those guys who I agree with or one of those guys I don’t. But I know you are definitely one of those guys.

    I am going to pack my bugout bag tomorrow. All of this SHIT that hems us in, fills our garage and shed and every room in the house…..is just exactly that- SHIT. Shit can be replaced pretty easy. Hell, in my experience, it’s harder to keep all the shit you got organized than it is to get the shit in the first place. A reset and rebuild from the ground up always should be an option for a man.

  35. “in the future I expect to see less Nice Shaming as the machinations of Hypergamy becomes part of men’s popular consciousness.”

    I was thinking that in the future, the resistance to having things like the heavy and the older swimsuit models ending up in Sports Illustrated being forced on men will not come from men but come from attractive women.
    As was said in the article about male spaces, once the intrusion of females happens, the next thing is the attempt to change the space to fit more to what females want. Things like SI swimsuit edition is a male space that in a way benefits women. Although only some, it still gives those the male attention they all like to have. So once you get the intrusion of the heavy models and more attempts to convince men that they should find them just as desirable as the others, the next step is to go from we’re just as desirable as they are to we’re more desirable.
    Then you’ll see that good ole’ female competition for attention take over.
    Big models will show modeling swimsuits along side slim models. Big women will be happy cause of the beauty expansion thing. Big women will start to claim they’re actually more desirable than the slim models, trying to push them out. Slim models will call them out, admitting men never did like fat girls in the first place.
    It’s happened a little bit already with Cheryl Tiegs saying the big girl model shouldn’t have been in Sports Illustrated.

  36. @ wala

    Calibration is key. I am a “nice guy” to girls

    Calibration is more important in certain contexts where IOI’s might be more subtle. If a group of girls is fairly non-slutty, then calibration tells you to do the nice guy routine. If a girl is grinding on you and spanking your butt, no calibration is required. You still have to qualify them, of course, and compliance test them.

    Per scray’s recommendation, I got my hands on the girls Fri. and Sat. A lot. Lifted one in the air by her butt, spanked another after she spanked me first. Even on Fri., I was doing bf kino, hand on hip. Girl didn’t move away.

    The dynamite blew up the girls’ restroom. Ya give a kid dynamite…

  37. @Sun

    “Yeah I mostly agree. I mean, I get where their indignation comes from. What person wouldn’t want to live in a world where the most pleasant way to go through life – be friendly, respectful, kind, and gentle to everyone and they’ll do the same for you – would also lead to a loving long term relationship with a supportive partner? I mean really, hypergamy is on its face the rejection of a way of living that really seems like a no-brainer. Why would you seek out people who don’t live that way, in effect complicating your own life on purpose?”

    I get what you’re saying – the blue pill ideals are actually nice ideals. And having the sort of firmware that allows us to operate in that manner would be rational given our modern circumstances.

    But….I suppose where this falls off the rails for me is that I like wildness, spontaneity, disorder. To reasonable measure at least. And so in the end I’m actually pleased to find out that humanity is a bit weird, a bit feral – that this is a dance not a math problem.

    But that might just be my personal disposition.

    That said, men are caught in painful and confusing positions due to faulty and deceptive messaging. I was one of them, I felt that pain, that rage, that hopelessness. I had my heart cut out. So I don’t lack sympathy for men caught in the Matrix just cause I ended up liking Zion better, if I may extend the usual analogy.

    Elements in the Androsphere who hate on these men remind me of closeted homophobic Baptist preachers.

    “There are still times though while I’m learning Game that I wish I could just default to being genuinely nice. It takes less energy. It entails less risk. Hell, it’s still easier as a reaction just due to decades of conditioning.”

    In the last comment thread @Scray hit some awesome points. I’m on a phone here so I’m not gonna take 15 minutes to find the quote, but he was taking about how you should just end up seeming like a good guy who just gets laid a lot due to circumstance.

    My game has this sticking point – I’ve emphasized attraction (since I didn’t have concious skill at generating it before) to the exclusion of comfort. So ‘game’ to me started to look like ‘acting like a cocky ass.’

    But really, I’ve found much more success with girls I really like/have affection for and I’m realizing that’s because I AUTOMATICALLY do comfort with them. I like them and so I’m nice to them but I still do kino and tease them and play with their hair and so on. Game has just made me comfortable acting on my physical impulses with them.

    Maybe for some guys asshole behavior comes more frequently/naturally. But not for me. Girls that want to sleep with me just think I’m some combination of awesome, smart, kind, mysterious, and popular. I don’t usually go for the whole hate-fuck thing. Bad energy, even if it’s crazy sexual.

    Not anything you haven’t heard before. But basically, I see proper game as still accommodating ‘niceness.’ It just needs an edge. You can’t be boring.

    Sometimes generating bad feels can create a sexual spark. LSE girls can get off on that. But it’s not fully necessary. The most LSE girl I’ve banged I was really kind to; I just (unintentionally) DHV’d enough and did some comfort and it was on.

    It is a bit unfortunate how little intersection there is between ‘good man’ and ‘laid man’ behaviors there is. Because that would be a hella incentive to eusociality were things otherwise. But so it falls.

    Nice is too easy in the end.

  38. Have you guys seen r/niceguys on reddit? Man the girls there are absolutely brutal towards niceguys…:/ Idk, but there does seem to be way too much tolerance nowadays for treating men poorly and w a bitchy attitude.
    I remember seeing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmP1ier3R30
    and thinking like wow guys actually do have it kinda rough xD

    Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…

  39. Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…

    So go ahead and tell them to be jerks to get in your pants. Problem solved.

    Or was that the problem in the first place?
    Damn, got to reread everything Rollo wrote on it.
    I’ll be up late everybody.

  40. @Emily

    “Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…”

    How do you know which ones are?

  41. How do you know which ones are?

    Made me laugh.
    my guess, once they express they want to have sex.

  42. @walawala

    Great point. I couldn’t agree more about red-pill awareness, attraction, and shit-testing. Great comeback btw to the ex. I might borrow that ha!

    But I was speaking more about being nice when it is more opportunistic as a man to be so. Generally speaking (unless you’re doing pickup at a nightclub or the like), I find it better to be more well-mannered (nice) when you are first around a girl. A man should also be playful and teasing, but still relatively not too douchey. Then, once you have sex the shit tests will surely come. At that point, a man should act like an asshole when needed. But that’s the key phrase, “when needed.” I lost a few potential plates from not restraining my inner asshole when I easily could have restrained it.

    Don’t get me wrong, girls want someone strong and who will be an asshole to them when they deserve it. But being nice in and of itself is not the cock block that it is often made out to be in the sphere.

    The problem with the little boy that wrote this letter is not that he is nice. The problem with the boy who wrote this letter is that he thinks being nice will make it rain pussy. It’s not that simple. There is a big difference between the two mindsets and often in the sphere the two positions are lumped together as a single unit.

  43. Good god…at some point these reminders of the average male mindset about sexual relations, fairness, rules, etc. just become cumbersome.

    I feel a mixture of revulsion, boredom, frustration, and compassion towards these guys. It’s a clear cry for help, sadly aimed at the gender least likely do give a crap or offer any actionable advice or assistance.

    Take them aside… show some heart. Let them know with a laugh and a smile to put themselves first, to not give a crap about the feigned outrage at notes like this, to just be a bit of a jerk for starters. Baby steps…you’d want someone to do it for you. Gotta at least try.

    I was volunteering a few months ago and working on a project with a fourteen year old boy with a neurological disability. He was telling me that his neighbor who he had a crush on rejected him when he brought her flowers and told her he really really really liked her. He was confused. He was incredulous when I told him that next time he sees her he ought to tease her about her clothes or her haircut with a grin and walk away…I THINK I got through to him. Put yourself in the shoes of other men, it is a gift you can give as a being with the capacity to TRULY empathize with other’s feelings.

  44. I think if you are going to do RP “nice” it mostly means just being unapologetic.
    You can be dominant but nice, you can be strong but nice, you can make it clear people / girls / women are not going to roll over you but still be nice.

    Being obsequious and snivelling, that is pussy desiccant right there.

    As a Canadian I had to do some hard verbal reprogramming when I took the RP. Every 5th word for many Canucks is “Sorry”. I now allow myself that word about once a quarter with my wife and instead have been trying to insert “mistakes were made” in it’s place. Thankfully she doesn’t know who so famously uttered that phrase or in what context. I doubt she would enjoy the irony given that ways I use it. Self amusement is so fun.

    Great post as always Rollo, it must get boring constantly hitting them over the fence. Perhaps we need to move the fence back for you.

    Per the OP, I find it interesting how I manage fully BP, AFC’s these days, particularly in business. Now I see it for what it is, its easy to ferret out those types of people and then you have their number. They seem to be easy to put soft pressure on and you just get what you want so much more easily. It’s as simple as establishing reasonable boundaries half the time.

    That having been said, I am thankful I don’t really care any longer about being thought of as “nice”. I am very comfortable being an asshole. I am generally polite and reasonable, but I have no issue slipping into asshole mode either internally or externally as it suits the occasion and my purpose. At this point chivalry is almost exclusively reserved for blood or my wife.

  45. Sat my main plate down last week and told her how it is.
    It’s been just over a year, she is 30 so 18 years younger than me and i know she sees marriage in her future.
    Being a “nice guy” lol I told her she will never get the commitment or kids she wants from me, and that if she can find some mush to provide those things she should go for it.
    Her response?
    Pornstar level sex and our first “home video” the next weekend.
    I keep her around because she is a squirter and super low maintenance, she
    Has never even had the audacity to throw a shit test my way from day one.
    I maintain frame and MPO mindset and treat her as what she is an “accessory” to my life and a source of entertainment (which is all modern women have to offer).
    Gues what she responds by being feminine, submissive and entertaining, being a MAN works!
    I know she will find her mush to provide what i won’t, and I know i have created an Alpha widow.
    Collateral damage some shit can’t be helped, I’ll send her on her way with a slap on the ass wishing her well, knowing she will be back for her AF’s.
    Inless she brings a hot friend I won’t let her.
    At this point ( I have a son 13) women are for ENTERTAINMENT ONLY! expect anything more and you will be dissapointed.
    Am I a ” nice guy”? Probably not, chicks don’t seem to mind!
    Be the OTHER GUY, Let the “nice guys” take the strain and enjoy her at her best.
    Thanks Rollo.

  46. If a woman and a man has a perfect relationship, understanding, personal growth and thousands of things that women say.

    They are just friends

    The sexual part makes it a romantic relationship.

    The nice guys, they can get everything else, but not sexual desire, her nipples she is excited, her vagina is wet.

    The desire for sex is what they want to get for the man-woman relationship, be validated as men, because according to have done what it means to be a man, sex can hire a prostitute anywhere in the world, but can not buy validacion if desired, they can see millions of pictures of naked women aged 18-24 90-60-90, but nor are desired.

    But one issue that feminists never want to talk about is that excites women from the 70s with domestic violence, has asked for a would follow women with the same man who abused, the fault was of patriarchy, but understand the mechanics of sexual desire in women has been pandora’s box for feminists, where would accept defeat that gender is not a social construction, that women want to be sexually submitted by a man for a woman, a man must be a leader .

    In concensus was a hate campaign against evil men and women need a nice guy, to be a man is hatred and mistreatment of women.

    The guilt complex, attacked the man to be nice and helpful, that would be the
    new manliness.

    But this has failed miserably.

    Women may not want this new type of man and it is not no.

    The last I read Cosmopolitan magazine, said that it is better these with a player and fun to put up a nice guy.

    Women camouflaged in any way that is sexual desire, with anything about relationships romanticism, or intended to use sexual desire as a form of humiliation.

    The use of slut-shame, to justify any treatment of a woman to a man, a woman can have sex with any number of man … and choose the best.

    While the slut-shame used to consolidate power to women who are not of their class.

    “A new study Suggests That high-status female college students employ” slut discourse “- defining Their styles of femininity and Approaches to sexuality as classy rather than trashy or slutty – to assert class advantage and put Themselves in a position Where They can sexual enjoy exploration with few social consequences ”

    http://www.asanet.org/documents/press/pdfs/SPQ_June_2014_Elizabeth_Armstrong_News_Release.pdf

    Asian women love white men and white women see them as a threat why exclude them as a vulnerable group and only white men ashamed not to go with them, Asian fetish, is an attempt to divert, Asian women accusing them of only white men to see women as sex objects.

  47. @matt

    ““A new study Suggests That high-status female college students employ” slut discourse “- defining Their styles of femininity and Approaches to sexuality as classy rather than trashy or slutty – to assert class advantage and put Themselves in a position Where They can sexual enjoy exploration with few social consequences ””

    It should be pretty obvious to those of us who have interacted with women in their 20s-30s in the U.S. that they have “boyfriends” who pay their bills, but they still fuck around and do whatever they want anyway. They’re fucking guys for adderall and weed while their loser boyfriend who pays the rent and netflix bill is working in an office and sitting home with his dick in his hands at night.

    Do you honestly think these girls are going to deter from doing whatever the fuck they want all the time because they told some automaton they’re “in a relationship” with him for the moment? I’ve seen these fuckers playing by the old set of rules get burned. I really don’t have any sympathy for them anymore either… they should know better.

  48. I think niceness is the outcome of education and the forced entrainment of egalitarianism, hyper-empathy, altruism, servitude and group consensus in boys.

    A boy’s natural masculine proclivities are severely castigated and he is only rewarded if he sublimates his own will in the service of others. He becomes conditioned to the reward of self effacement instead of the natural male activities of status jockeying, seeking dominance and pushing boundaries.

    It’s a conditioned form of reverse narcissism where the self doesn’t exist and is sublimated to serve the other, a kind of inverse infantilism.

    The same strictures don’t apply to girls as they are taught self actualisation and empowerment.

    Hyper-empathy doesn’t recognise the separateness of mind between themselves and others and he doesn’t exist if he is not held in the mind of the other. If he is not in the service of another he experiences an existential crisis of the rejection of his very being, he ceases to exist i.e. Elliot Rogers.

    The reverse narcissist hyper-empathetic niceguy has a compelling need to serve and wants to force his servitude on others. Anyone not wanting his help is an affront to his self worth so he has a pathological need for ‘disadvantaged’ people.

    For women hyper-empathetic men are very confronting, coercive and sexually unappealing.

    Interestingly, I think any boy sufficiently exposed for a significant duration to dominant female behaviour (parent, siblings, teacher, guardian etc.) will be subject to succumbing to niceguy syndrome.

  49. @Vitriol
    “I really don’t have any sympathy for them anymore either”
    me too.

    After years of hearing from slut-shame, racist, poor women being oppressed.

    It ends up being a projection of white feminists upper class, saying that they are against it, when they are the ones who use it with classist, racist and xenophobic purposes.

  50. “I’ve been startled several times by the sheer _venom_ with which women react to this kind of thing. They are actively, physically, _repulsed_ by the notion that a nice man who tries to be a good person should expect to ever have a satisfying sex life. The very idea is horrifying and hateful to women, and they respond with incoherent anger.”

    I’ve remarked in the past – I used to “hateread” the major feminist blogs – that judging by sheer volume of ink spilled Nice Guys are more of a problem than actual rapists (as opposed to the white fratboy/jock type, real or fictional). The thing is that the feminist/Hugo Schwyzer response to Nice Guys venting their frustration is often laced with glee that they’re shut out from having a major human need met – as if denying them sex and then humiliating them for it is going to make Nice Guys more receptive to feminism and women’s claims of oppression.

    Of course, the major logical flaw in response to Nice Guys is to pretend that mixed motives don’t exist in human affairs. I can, for example, volunteer my time for charity for the purposes of a) doing good; b) being seen to have done good; and c) business networking. The self-interested motives don’t preclude the altruistic motives – they’re simply mixed together. I can take my girlfriend out to a dinner at a fancy restaurant because I both enjoy her company and a nice meal, and because I think it will maintain the relationship in such a way as to encourage sex. A Nice Guy can do favors and give gifts to a woman to whom he is attracted because it feels good and generous, while at the same time wanting to pursue a romantic relationship with the woman. Where Nice Guys are mistaken is that women (particularly young and pretty women) believe that good stuff is theirs by right – the Universe is simply arranged to meet their material and emotional needs and they don’t really analyze the transactional nature of this phenomenon.

    Of course, also lurking tacitly in the background of the attack on Nice Guys is a reaffirmation that feminists do believe that sex is something that men “take” from women despite protestations to the contrary – at least sex with Betas and Nice Guys.

  51. @Forge🙂

    Well, the guys posting notes on boards to say how they are nice but all the girls ignore them clearly were nice just go get with us.

    That said, I sort of agree w Rollo here that there is a startling amount of toxicity from some women towards genuinely nice guys. I def noticed that on Reddit.

    Personally, I don’t mind niceguys, but I do mind when they feel entitled to something just cause they were nice.

    Example, theres this guy living in my building who once saw me coming back from Barnes and Noble’s with books and magazines. This guy ran over to the door to open it for me, then ran to the lift to hoold it open for me, then carried the stuff for me. and at the end, OF COURSE, asked me for my number. Now that itself is fine. Kinda annoying but fine. But if he goes later to whine about how girls don’t like nice guys, then thats REALLY annoying. He isn’t entitled to my number cause he was nice. No girl will ever be interested in someone JUST because they are nice. There are so many other factors involved.

    If that’s hard to understand… do a role reversal. Do you care if a girl is a nice person? I doubt it.

  52. “Do you care if a girl is a nice person? I doubt it.”

    Meanwhile, back in the projection room . . .

  53. – your body wanted to be a man since you were a toddler
    – your body wanted to create and build
    – your body pushed you to behave like a man
    – but your elementary school taught you that physical strength doesn’t matter because womenzfeelz…
    – and your energy to create and lead doesn’t matter because womenzfeelz…
    – and your confidence that you are doing the right thing, the smart thing, the best long term outcome, doesn’t matter because womenzfeelz…
    – our boys are in crisis

  54. “Do you care if a girl is a nice person? I doubt it.”

    Wow. This is beyond projection. It’s intellectual and emotional bankruptcy. But thanks for pulling back the curtain another couple of inches.

    Sure, I want to spend the next 30 years of my life with a woman self-empowering through her cultivation of Peak Bitch Mode. I have one girlfriend who also is puzzled by the impact of her own behavior. She’s a senior person in a very tough business, so I gather that she and her friends periodically say to themselves, “Yeah, I need to act like Hillary more often or I’ll never get what I want.” I’ve come to learn that they secretly admire the Hill’s exasperation before the Gowdy committee — “What difference does it make (that I got the ambassador and the contractors killed)?!” (Two of the deceased were her bodyguards, and she was in the ambassador’s wedding.)

    So this friend is now desperate to lock me down, and for three years our interactions have been episodic because she’s a recidivist Peak Bitch Mode practitioner — every two or three months she blows up what she says she most wants. As we know, it’s pointless to negotiate kindness.

    Now the fickle finger of fate is working its way with her, and she leaves for her next posting in three months, which is in an unpleasant place on the other side of the world. A place where the available men are contractors, operators, and married betas. Panic has ensued. She wants me to follow and be her companion — A Nice Guy. She doesn’t realize that she would slowly and then all at once despise the arrangement if I gave it to her. I’ve told her I’ll think about it, provided I have my own job (not controlled by her) and my own apartment. This is a tall order, but it has generated some awesome nude selfies the past couple of weeks.

    Women are deranged if they think being America’s Ex-Wife (the Hill) is a good life model and strategy.

    Yeah, I have spent a lot of time shooting the shit with guys and they all proclaim, “If my wife/girlfriend/lover were just more of a wanna-be alpha bitch things would be so much better.”

    Life is a shit-test. Then you die.

  55. You can include the book “No more Mr. Nice Guy” right at the top of the shaming material if you ask me. That book had some good stuff in it, but the crap about covert contracts and ulterior motives always pissed me off. I could never formulate the exact reason why until after reading this post.

    I remember being that nice guy. What pissed me off wasn’t that women weren’t automatically throwing their pussies at me. What pissed me off was that I wasn’t even going to get a shot.

    Regarding the covert contract and ulterior motives thing, how was anything hidden? The nice guy is doing the mating dance as it was taught to him. (usually by the women in his life).

    The logical but naive young man decides he wants to start dating. His logical conclusion is to start doing the mating dance. He well remembers what his mama or pussy wiped father taught him about how that goes. So he goes out into the world and dances his heart out. He dances to the sound of crickets. He doesn’t expect it to start raining pussy on him. He expects a shot… and he doesn’t get it. It’s not because he is being covert or having unreasonable expectations. It’s because the blue pill mating dance he was taught is bullshit. Robert Glover can shove his covert contracts up his ass. Nothing improves until you realize the entire instruction manual you have been given is a farce.

  56. @kfg

    My condolences. It sounds like you both got the family you deserved…

    Good luck!

  57. @Forge the Sky

    “Game has just made me comfortable acting on my physical impulses with them.”

    This…

    THIS is the essence of the Nice Guy problem; why they get stuck as orbiters and in the Friend Zone.

    At least it was with me, and I think it applies to many. Men are taught to suppress any expression of sexuality unless you are of the vaunted AF, and even then, your better watch your ass!

    It’s not about being an asshole or jerk, or even some psychopathic thug…those are only indicators of people who don’t have trouble expressing, even demanding, their needs be met.

    “Nice” gets equated with being non-sexual, because being sexual, seeking to satisfy one’s own desires is being ‘predatory’, or ‘selfish’, ‘taking advantage’ of a girl.

    You are taught to NEVER be comfortable with those impulses, because then you are part of the ‘rape culture’.

    This used to be under the First Book of rules, for the interest of keeping girls chaste for marriage, and it was kept in the rules revision under the new FI regime because it played into the Patriarchy Oppression Narrative and helped to further separate Alpha from Beta.

    Of course, being non-sexual results in…wait for it…no sex!

    Betas SHOULD get some sympathy because not only were we indoctrinated in the mentality from both the conservative and feminist sides, but today there is a CLEAR AND PRESENT danger to acting on those impulses, ranging from public excoriation to legal and civil action which could cost you reputation, money and even your freedom. Women are using the cudgel of authority, from the media, to college administration, to the courts, to punish any male that tries to express sexuality.

    Oh, you acted on your impulses and approached that woman for a date?

    Well, you are harassing her, you creep!

    You hooked up with that horny girl after a few drinks?!?

    Well, mister, she feels a little different in the light of day, so you iz a rapist! You should have acted more responsibly…

    Oh, you are in a sexless marriage, and went looking for some outlet outside of that union?

    Well, you should have controlled your urges! But, your broke your vows and failed to live up to YOUR end of the bargain, so hand over half of everything you own, sucka!

    The happiest and ‘luckiest’ I ever was in sexual relations was when I was gleefully pursuing simple hedonistic pleasures. I was not a jerk or an asshole to those women, but I was not overly invested in them, and expressed myself fairly openly in my desires and they responded.

    Somewhere along the way I started suppressing that, and I am not entirely sure why, but I think that is a major stumbling block for many.

  58. “I remember being that nice guy. What pissed me off wasn’t that women weren’t automatically throwing their pussies at me. What pissed me off was that I wasn’t even going to get a shot.”

    underlying all beta behavior is an impotent rage… because the motives are not honest (i.e. authentic) and the effort always in someone else’s frame. whether in work or in love the same outcome… unfulfilled desire and rage.

    PS -BuenaVista! Good to see you posting again.

  59. @Is This Thing On?

    “That book had some good stuff in it, but the crap about covert contracts and ulterior motives always pissed me off.”

    Hey, I read the same book, and while it was over a year ago, I THINK maybe your are mis-interpreting his point about the covert contracts.

    If I recall, Glover points out that many men don’t assert themselves about what they want and need in various relationships (can be friends, spouses, lover, family) and just assume that other people will understand those needs AND reciprocate them without being asked or put to task over it.

    It doesn’t mean he SHOULDN’T get his needs met and accept it, or that people who take from him without reciprocation should be excused.

    It does mean that Nice Guys have a habit of, because they try to avoid confrontation, just assuming that doing A will be met with B, and when it doesn’t, they either do even more of A, and/or then blow up in resentment when B never arrives.

    Glover’s point was that the contracts are self-imposed illusions that have to be shattered and tossed aside if one has any chance of getting what you want in inter-personal relationships.

    It can be calling a sibling out on their shit when it comes to taking some of the load of caring for parents, or a business partner who is not taking care of their responsibilities, rather than working ever harder in the hope both will ‘take the hint’ and respond in kind.

    In the case of women and the Beta guy, it’s about tossing out that set of old books, realizing that they are not following it as the Beta is. It’s about expecting respect for his time and his own sexuality, and voicing dissatisfaction and taking a action with any women who fails to give him that respect.

    The feminist will complain that it is ‘demanding sex’ from a woman, but it’s not. It’s making clear that man’s time and energy is worth something, and failure to respect that means a man can and will both voice his displeasure and take his time and energy where it is a better investment.

    I can relate to this, because I was stuck in this pattern with most everyone in my life, and even today still have to work on keeping out of it. It has been pretty enlightening to see people’s reactions, not all positive, when I suddenly begin asserting myself.

  60. emilyy96 — who self-identifies as a devout Catholic young woman—cannot express gratitude to a man who relieved her of her burden.
    .
    The perdition that is womanhood.

  61. @Sentient,

    I couldn’t disagree more about the authenticity part. The entire point to my post is that the motives of the average blue pill beta are completely authentic and honest. The problem is that nearly from birth they are taught “THIS IS HOW YOU SHOW A GIRL YOU ARE INTERESTED”. (screaming at society, not you)

    Essentially, the rule book says, if you are interested in a girl, show her you are a good a willing provider. The Blue Pill Beta is then in his mind overtly showing interest. He isn’t trying to pass one off on the sly. He honestly thinks if he displays his interest in this way it will actually be seen as such. His world collapses when time after time he is proven wrong. The blue pill rule book is the disingenuous lie. The BPB operating on that book will be seen as disingenuous only because the rule book he is playing with is disingenuous. He is not the liar. He is living the lie he has been spoon fed from birth.

    I do agree with the impotent rage part and the fact that he is playing in someone else’ frame though.

  62. “The happiest and ‘luckiest’ I ever was in sexual relations was when I was gleefully pursuing simple hedonistic pleasures. I was not a jerk or an asshole to those women, but I was not overly invested in them, and expressed myself fairly openly in my desires and they responded.”

    Extrapolate this out to all facets of your life… by pursuing the Platinum Rule [do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it]…

  63. @Seraph

    I disagree with Glover on the honesty part. Glover asserts the “nice guy” is being covert and dishonest. I disagree. The nice guy has been taught the wrong language.

    Its kind of like this story I heard where some douche bag decided to teach his kids the wrong words simply to screw them up. Imagine going to school thinking a pencil was called a sailboat. Man I bet that was hysterical to watch (not). That is exactly what has been done to men.

  64. Is this Thing On…

    Following the Rule Book does not negate that the rules are dishonest and inauthentic, as you say, the Blue Pill Rule book is a lie… so following it make you a liar…

    You can be very nice to women, from an authentic place of being nice. And it will be well received. It may even result in sex… holy mindfuck batman! HOWEVER it will be because you were being nice from your own authentic no strings attached, no favors sought frame…

    And that is the lesson. Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.

  65. @Sentient,

    “Extrapolate this out to all facets of your life…”

    I am trying. Really! Swear…I’ve mentioned before how I suddenly realized at middle-age that I really had lost touch with who I was, if I ever really knew it, and was battling back to find it.

    Trying to fight the BP programming and have to consider everything in regards to affect on the kids, but I hear you. I have expanding my interests and letting go of shit holding me back, even if it is literally stuff lying around the house which is no longer relevant and/or use to me.

  66. Given the legal and social acceptance of open hypergamy, we are fast approaching the day when females won’t even interact with nice guys period.

    I’ve come to discover that dating as we and our parents knew it in High School is effectively over. Teenage girls either bang Alphas or stand fast while using orbiters as financial and emotional appliances. Those guys have better luck becoming astronauts then getting into her pants under the “First Set of Books”.

    Given the increased earning, political, and social power of women today , it’s debatable whether they even need Betas anymore from a finance perspective. I’m finding most of my plates are either equaling or out-earning their betabucks and find the situation intolerable for reasons they can’t explain; they’re only in their marriages and LTRs with these wusses because her hen group are in them too .

    In a generation, there won’t even be that. The current crop of teenage girls will be more ruthless then a Chase loan officer. Either a dude brings WAY more money to the table, or she’s walking.

    Mister Nice guy won’t even get the option for a negotiated relationship as the years go on , because who needs Beta Bucks when Miss HB has more earning and social power then virtually any man she has access to socially?

  67. @sentient, we will have to agree to disagree. IMHO believing a lie doesn’t make you a liar, it makes you a dupe. I’m arguing about intent here. We both arrive at the same place with regard to the question of what to do about it so at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter.

    I simply refuse to blame the men still left behind for their plight. They are operating in what they believe is the truth. They didn’t generate the lie. They are stuck in it. If you don’t focus the blame on the true source, you can’t correct the error. The source of the problem is young boys being primarily educated by women. These young men have my sympathy, not my scorn. I was once in their shoes after all.

    In my opinion blaming these young men are what cause incels. They never find the truth because they stay in a state of self loathing and self blame. Accusing them of dishonesty and covert behavior doesn’t help them out of the lie.

  68. Is This Thing On

    ” These young men have my sympathy, not my scorn. ”

    They can earn some sympathy by at least doing something about it… those that bemoan that they weren’t taught or that the “old” rules aren’t being kept WHILE doing nothing (but moaning)… well that is the impotent beta rage.

    and they consign themselves to be “vol”cel at that point. Follow the maxim “reality is real” and deal with it, or suffer the results…

  69. @Is This Thing On,

    “I disagree with Glover on the honesty part. Glover asserts the “nice guy” is being covert and dishonest. I disagree. The nice guy has been taught the wrong language.”

    This is where I think confusion can occur, which was the point of my first comment.

    I could be wrong, as I am speaking from my experience, not yours, but bear with me…

    Is the nice guy REALLY being honest, in the sense of “to thine own self be true?”

    In my experience, I, over the years, suppressed a WHOLE LOT of things, feelings and emotions. Did I not know they were there? Well, sometimes, maybe, because one can get good at automatically suppressing things you do it long enough.

    Example, I do something for a friend, support him somehow in an endeavor, willingly. Later, when I need something along the same lines, he is nowhere to be found, or his disinterest in my efforts is palpable. I’m hurt, and although this is not the first time, I don’t address it in anyway, except maybe passive-aggressively, if that. I stuff it down, instead of addressing it, waiting for my friend to prove himself.

    Another example…

    I am living with a roommate. His younger, attractive sister comes to live with us for a while. I am attracted to her, I like her, she likes me, I sense there is some real potential there, she puts out some signals, but I don’t act on it, even to simply flirt and see what’s what.

    I repress both my attraction and sexual desire to avoid any problem with my friend and roommate, treating her like a sister, EVEN THOUGH SHE AIN’T MY SISTER and I have never wanted to do things to my sister that I imagined doing with her. It was not even a pure lust thing…I genuinely liked her.

    Later, another friend of that friend dates, and sleeps with her. The world doesn’t end, nor does anyone’s friendships.

    I, to do this DAY, regret not doing what I felt I should do, what I WANTED to do.

    This is what I, and I think Glover is talking about; pushing yourself into that fake mold, whether the one of the Old Books, or any other, rather than reacting authentically, truthfully, in any given situation.

    Granted, there are limits. I may authentically want to bash some asshole’s head in over his or her driving, but I should contain that for both my and civilization’s benefit.

    But acting on a mutual attraction?

    I think Glover’s point is, and one that at least I related to, is not so much that the guy has been taught the wrong language. He has been conditioned into doing fighting what should come naturally and effortlessly, to deny what he even feels or desires in order to fulfill someone else’s vision of him. So, in that sense he is dishonest with himself, with what he wants, conditioning or no.

    I KNEW how I felt about the roommate’s sister, I just pretended NOT to feel it to accommodate ‘harmony’ and ‘be the nice guy’ who would never make a pass at a younger sister of a friend.

    Yay, me….

    @Sentient,

    “Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.”

    I agree, IF one can be nice toward women, AND also express clearly, either overtly or covertly, attraction toward them. If being authentic means being authentically male, which translates into, “You are a great person and friend, lady, but if I had my druthers, I would tap that even if for just a one time thing.”

    I could have been, would have been, and WAS nice to the girl mentioned above, but that did not exclude me desiring her and being able to act on that…

  70. “Example, theres this guy living in my building who once saw me coming back from Barnes and Noble’s with books and magazines. This guy ran over to the door to open it for me, then ran to the lift to hoold it open for me, then carried the stuff for me. and at the end, OF COURSE, asked me for my number. Now that itself is fine. Kinda annoying but fine”

    LOLZ… Sooo many chestnuts today, but it’s not fall?

    Now nowhere does our hero(ine) DECLINE his help… How many men would allow a 350LB blue hair to do the same… all the way to his room? and how many would say “it’s OK I got it” when observing the obvious?

  71. @Sentient,

    “Now nowhere does our hero(ine) DECLINE his help…”

    Interesting catch…

    You could maybe excused the door holding, both times, but it seems she could have told him when it came to carrying the shit that she was fine but really appreciated the help all the same.

    Instead she does nothing to discourage him until he asks for her number, and then gets annoyed by it.

    And, I get it, she doesn’t HAVE to give her number, but getting annoyed because he ASKED.

    Oy…Whatever issues I got, I don’t know being single is any picnic today…

  72. “Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…”

    What makes you think those dudes just want to get in your pants? Most of them would happily wife up the first pretty girl that comes along and be her beta bucks for life.

  73. “Instead she does nothing to discourage him until he asks for her number, and then gets annoyed by it.

    Seraph… but why does she get annoyed? easy – it’s programming. solipsism is real… she is annoyed, absolving herself of the guilt from knowing using the beta and reframing everything back to her plight.

    Ta da! No guilt! No remorse! Righteous anger!!!! How dare HE…!

    Cats are not dogs.

  74. @Is This Thing On: “The logical but naive young man decides he wants to start dating. His logical conclusion is to start doing the mating dance. He well remembers what his mama or pussy wiped father taught him about how that goes. So he goes out into the world and dances his heart out. He dances to the sound of crickets. He doesn’t expect it to start raining pussy on him. He expects a shot… and he doesn’t get it. It’s not because he is being covert or having unreasonable expectations. It’s because the blue pill mating dance he was taught is bullshit. Robert Glover can shove his covert contracts up his ass. Nothing improves until you realize the entire instruction manual you have been given is a farce.”

    The problem with your analysis is that the dancing monkeys instruction manual all of us were taught WAS to use covert contracts. We were taught NOT TO BE OPEN ABOUT OUR DESIRES because that is not what “nice guys” do. When you identify and delete your covert contracts, you also get rid of your hidden (covert) expectations AND BRING THEM INTO THE OPEN.

    Nice guy: Dinner, movie, 5 dates. Why won’t she sleep with me. I am being niiiiiiicccceeee! Wahhhh!

    Playuh: Action date, kino, sexual innuendo, nothing covert about what he wants. Oh, you don’t want sex with me. Neeeeeeexxxxxxxt!

    If you want pussy, guess which approach works. (Hint: NOT keeping your covert contracts).

  75. The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head.

    TRUTH. Was out with the wife and kids this weekend, and saw other women giving me IOI. My wife noticed the other women, and noticed that I was aware of their IOI. The rest of the weekend was textbook: TRUE appreciation. TRUE valuation. TRUE displays of affection. I didn’t have to chase it. I didn’t have to try. I didn’t have to beg. I didn’t even have to say anything to these other women. They looked at me and smiled, my wife saw this and saw me looking back at them. That’s all it took. She felt threatened, she responded.

  76. @Seraph

    “In my experience, I, over the years, suppressed a WHOLE LOT of things, feelings and emotions. Did I not know they were there? Well, sometimes, maybe, because one can get good at automatically suppressing things you do it long enough. ”

    = FI success…

    “I am living with a roommate. His younger, attractive sister comes to live with us for a while. I am attracted to her, I like her, she likes me, I sense there is some real potential there, she puts out some signals, but I don’t act on it, even to simply flirt and see what’s what. ”

    this is not what the feminist complaint is about…this is actually the desired outcome from a BP (FI) perspective…bc you DIDN”T end up sexualizing your encounter…while still ‘providing’…= BB…

    the feminists’ complaint is about the ‘surprise i have a penis’ phenom…lol…and trying to ‘negotiate desire”…

    imagine this same situ except that you do lots of ‘nice’ stuff for said sister…without overt ‘expectations’…THEN, she moves out, and you ask her for a date…and THEN you tried to sexualize based only on your built up ‘relational equity’…(as opposed to ‘in the moment’ ‘sexualizing’ of the interaction…like a playah…lol)…

    THAT’s the complaint…bc IF you were a playah, and sexualized the interaction ‘properly’ she wouldn’t care…lol…

    good luck!

  77. “Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.”

    I agree, IF one can be nice toward women, AND also express clearly, either overtly or covertly, attraction toward them.

    So long as you can also convey pre-selection and DHV in the process. I field tested the “just be direct and authentic with desire” for a year. I did approximately 1000 approaches, got six dates, and only one lay. While she had a cute face, she was definitely more overweight than myself. Being straightforward and never inducing dread is handicapping your SMV.

    @Is this thing on
    I would advise you let go of your attachment to receiving sympathy and focus on salvaging the useful advice from material (something I myself am working on). Gynocentrism is a real thing -women will never care about men’s pain, and other men will only care about men they see as strong enough to care about. There is no incentive to care about weak men, outside of extremely close relationships (with the right people). It’s not a pretty fact, but it’s true.

    If you can, find a close male friend who can satisfy your desire to be understood. Either way, let go of your desire to be understood by the masses- they never will. But if you can become strong enough, you won’t care anymore.

  78. Pellaeon

    ” I did approximately 1000 approaches, got six dates, and only one lay.”

    Hey are you a London Daygame expert?

  79. @Sun

    re why not both?…

    generations of hard-wired survival adaptations…lol

    (note – i happen to agree with you on this btw…lol…doesn’t change reality though… = FI in play…)

    your attitude = FI in play bc it is expecting girls to take action (meet you halfway = making it ‘easy’ for you to get sex/reproduction…)…as opposed to being ‘reactive’…which is what they ARE…

    also, you CAN have both…but as the man, it’s YOUR job to make it happen…you just have to do it from your frame…(and i really wasn’t kidding about only having to make one or two small changes to get some huge gains…)

    good luck!

  80. @HABD

    Don’t misunderstand me. These days I have no doubt as to my intents and don’t play the Nice Guy. But yes, the false dichotomy is 100% FI.

  81. Having good intentions towards others is not a bad thing. But as such a boy grows up, there are social signals all over the place that tell such a boy that:

    good intentions towards others = self-sacrifice

    This meme is the worst BS. The Church is a good place to be fed this crap for example (but it is a primary meme, almost to the level of being an unspoken subconscious meme – so deeply ingrained, that is everywhere in culture – it is just subtly implied everywhere).

    The boy starts out having good intentions towards others probably because he feels good about himself (self-respect), and expects others to be the same (but they are often not). Enter the self-sacrifice meme.

    It shouldn’t be – “hey boy – turn the other cheek”, it should be – “hey good-intentioned boy – you alright – better figure out who is alright and who is not, and deal accordingly – because many many people have mainly bad intentions towards others” . If all you get is – “turn the other cheek” – this is mindfuckery of the worst kind.

    So life goes on and then perhaps the self-sacrifice style takes hold, psychic-habit-wise. The feedback from the social environment is therefore interpreted by the subconscious as – “you don’t deserve better treatment”. So then such a boy (now a horny teenager) internalizes that as – “the high self-respect I started out with, was misplaced, the social world tells me I misjudged myself – I will recalibrate to lower self-respect – i.e. – that I am deficient in some way, – so it is now up to me to figure out how I am deficient so I can correct (see – this boy is actually pretty resilient – he doesn’t give up – he recalibrates to find the solution for himself).

    So the horny teenager (now a young man) tries and tries to find out in what way he is deficient, but he can’t because he has committed a grave sin against himself – he is in denial that he disrespected his own self by way of entertaining and then incorporating the idea that he was deficient – to admit disrespect upon his own self is too much to bear (goes against the deep self-preservation script) – so he instead tries to see it as if he does have proper self-respect but that it is rallying around a deficient personhood. This denial seals the lid. Now he can’t get out of his self-imposed psychic prison.

    He interacts with a woman he likes. He is good-intentioned (as is his primary nature). He has low self-respect and doesn’t know it. The woman misinterprets his good intentions as self-serving (because she senses the low self-respect). But women being women – tend to play their social cards close to chest and tolerate instead of confront. And then at some point the good-intentioned, low self-respect man starts to feel desire for this rather duplicitous woman (except she would not frame it as duplicitous – she would frame it as “kind”, and in a way, from her point of view, that is sort of true). She is repulsed by his desire (women don’t like this type of oblivious low self-esteem), and she breaks her so-called frame of “tolerance” and shames him. As such his underlying psychic pattern is reinforced.

    What usually happen for this type of guy is that life gets so fucked up at some point, that he explodes in rage, and from that event slowly starts to rearrange his psychic elements again, starting from the very beginning:

    good intentions towards others = self-sacrifice = IS THE WORST BS

    What are the real reasons why the social world is complicit with this meme?:

    1) A lot of people don’t get raised in an infancy and early childhood environment that is conducive to producing a high level of self-respect that is a prerequisite of supporting a good-intentioned nature, so that it may flourish. So such people have to make of their circumstances what they can, and develop a high level of self-respect, out of the fires of early tribulations, instead out of a nurturing early environment. Given the circumstances this is a very good outcome, but such people don’t see those that have been nurtured in the same light as themselves (because after all it is different), and are rather distrustful of them and pretty much everybody actually, to some degree. If such nurtured people get fooled into believing: good intentions towards others = self-sacrifice, as their young life progresses, well that is their own delusion to deal with. So these “early-self-made” people are not going to advocate for the “early-nurture-made” – why would they?

    2) Deep down, women are attracted to self-made self-respect in men. Such self-made self-respect is obviously going to respond better in the face of adverse conditions. Women instinctively know this. So the: good intentions towards others = self-sacrifice meme is one giant shit test, that is forced upon the nurtured.

    3) So given #1 and #2 – it amounts to – as a man – you gotta be self-made, self-respect-wise, one way or the other, if it wasn’t forced upon you by a shitty early upbringing, then it is gonna be forced upon you by way of dealing shit to you, as you life progresses.

    The thing to realize with all this, is that, the good-intentioned young boy was right all along. That is the real deal. That boy – if he finally figures it all out – is pretty much bullet proof in ways that the more distrustful guys can’t be. It takes awhile for a woman to sense this in such a man (i.e. – she isn’t probably going to see this right away, right off the get go).

  82. “Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…”

    What makes you think those dudes just want to get in your pants? Most of them would happily wife up the first pretty girl that comes along and be her beta bucks for life.

    Ironically, the Nice Guy approach is calculated to communicate high investment – that he’s not just trying to get into the woman’s pants. That he’s willing to demonstrate his willingness to proffer provider behavior far in advance of sex. He’s trying to say that he’s safe and seeking LTR and “getting to know” the woman and won’t pressure sex.

  83. BPP

    ““Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.”
    So…Just Be Yourself. Got it.”

    Trite but wrong… If you “being yourself” is you being passive aggressive, dishonest with your motives and filled with impotent rage, well that won’t work…

    But you know that.

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