The Price of Nice

Price-of-nice

Well, dammit, here we go again. Just as I’m mid-way through another in-depth post I get stopped by something I can’t ignore. The above ‘post’ has been making the rounds on Twitter and more than a few in the ‘sphere have asked me for my take.

I probably would’ve just blown this off along with the few hundred other incidences of Beta guys (really Average Frustrated Chump in this instance) bemoaning the same lack of cooperation on the part of women to play along with their investment in the old set of books, that was however until I read through the predictable ‘Nice Shaming’ of Mark Pygas here.

“Good guys” are the absolute worst. If you’re going to go on an insane rant every time a woman tells you ‘no,’ you’re not a good guy.

Tumblr user Fenrufenrifenny recently spotted a flyer posted all around town that shamed women for not giving the “good guys a chance” and choosing “scum” men. Just a brief warning, it will probably be the worst thing you’ve ever read.

Proxy male femsplaining aside, no Mark, this isn’t worst thing I’ve ever read from a Nice Guy. In fact, just three years ago the ‘Nice Guys of OK Cupid‘ blog/hashtag made a point of running these Good Guys up the flagpole for the exact same frustrations of dealing with women in the most deductive, old rules way they’ve been taught to deal with women by their own words and conditioning.

You aren’t an original Mark, Hugo Schwyzer beat you to the Nice-Shaming-As-Beta-Game 4 years ago. And just like Hugo you make the same predictable assumptions about men expecting sex for niceties in an era where women exploit and advertise that men doing more chores and making women’s lives easier will lead to sex.

You see shaming Nice Guys for playing by the rules every woman has told him he ought to play by – since his single-mother or feminized father mentioned he should respect women by default to him since 5 years old – is the height of Hypergamous hypocrisy. Every time a woman, or a Vichy Male femsplainer, tells a guy “just be yourself‘ or “women love men who respect women” or in some other way convince him that women’s intimacy is best achieved by being the sensitive, understanding and supportive Beta they’ll need once they can no longer attract an Alpha asshole, all you do is reinforce the Nice Guy you now hate so much.

You see, you don’t get it both ways. You can’t shame and heap derision upon a Nice Guy for believing the same Old Books horse shit you’ve taught him will earn a woman’s favor and love. You don’t get to call him duplicitous when he believes all the “just be yourself” and “in the end women really want Nice men” tropes he’s been fed by the media mouths of a society that’s founded on women’s Hypergamy.

You may think this is some new development, but Nice Shaming has been going on for at least the 4 and a half years I’ve been blogging:

When truly nice guys (80-90% of the masculine sphere) read a line like “Nice Guys are the real jerks” something snaps in their heads. Black is white, up is down and Nice Guys are Jerks. Most Nice Guys have been playing the self-internalized Beta Game, identification scenario out for so long that to read something like this is akin to blaspheme. “Great now all these women I’ve been trying to be so nice too (like they all say they want) really think I’m a jerk?” One would think this would be a moment of clarity for the Nice Guy and he’d realize the truth of what his ‘misogynist’ Game-aware friends had been trying to enlighten him about for so long.

It’s almost like I have to revisit this Nice Guy paradox ever two years or so:

The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head.

That sounds horrible, but the truth often is. Women’s lack of appreciation for the more compassionate natures of men, and their consuming regard for rewarding men that appease their hypergamy is so well proven it’s become predictable enough to develop techniques and behavioral modifications to exploit it (i.e. Game). Most guys would like nothing better than to honestly play the loving, white knight, romantic who women bemoan a lack of in the world. Yet for every sonnet composed, every provision met, every compliment delivered and every well planned candlelit dinner conversation, there’s a woman feverishly fucking her Alpha bad boy in his low rent apartment for fear of losing him to the competition.
However, all that reviewed, it’s good to return to the issues that never really die off, and particularly so in the case of Nice Shaming because as we progress further into a social order that’s become increasingly more comfortable in openly, proudly, embracing Hypergamy the more poignant messages like the one in this posted letter are. Really it’s nothing new for a guy steeped in Blue Pill conditioning to be frustrated with the new set of books on display right before his eyes, but as Open Hypergamy becomes more and more unignorable in real-space as well as in media and open expressions of it, the less men will vent these frustrations so publicly.
The time to worry wont be when guys post open letters like this in dorm hallways, the time to worry is when that ceases altogether.
Women’s continued inability to really understand why a Nice Guy would ever be so frustrated as to post a notice like this only highlights an obliviousness that serves their Hypergamous imperatives. In other words it’s not in women’s Hypergamous interests to understand or sympathize with a guy who’s brought their sexual strategy out into the open.
The reason Nice Shaming still persists after decades is that it actually serves the Feminine Imperative. If you read through the Twitter responses to this note they are all identical to, or variations of the response I’ve outlined in my previous ‘Nice’ guy posts for almost 5 years now. And if this doesn’t convince you that women have a vested interest in not getting why a guy would post such frustration, you can just read the real-time posted response to it:
price-of-nice_2

Dear Sir,

If you’re watching some girl you like getting hurt by another guy STOP WHINING ABOUT IT AND DO SOMETHING. Don’t leave some anonymous note on a dorm wall. If you know someone is being hurt DO. SOME. THING.

If you want to play the “good guy” you need to rethink your intentions. If you’re only doing it for gratification, then you aren’t being the good guy. Did Batman give up on Gotham because people weren’t thanking him for saving the city?

You know what I really want? I want respect. I want people to respect that I’d rather not walk with a stranger in the middle of the night. I want people to respect that I can defend myself. I want people to respect that WOMEN CAN DO THINGS WITHOUT A GENTLEMAN TO HELP.

You want to be a gentlemen and a good guy? Start with changing the way you and other men see women. We aren’t fragile things you need to defend. We’re people. Keep holding doors open, keep being friendly, just don’t expect things in return; you aren’t owed anything by this world.

If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.

The obliviousness to the original message might seem staggering until you consider that it was likely typed out by a woman with a self-impression of female empowerment. The idea she’s addressing is that it’s the Nice Guy’s fault for not stepping in to “do something” while simultaneously claiming that “women can do things without a man’s help”. That alone would be enough to illustrate the mindset that would respond to a Nice Guy bemoaning women’s duplicity about ‘being Nice’, but she continues to miss the point that the dutiful ‘helping’ he’s offering isn’t help at all, but his disillusionment with his Blue Pill conditioning.

It’s likely he’s oblivious to it, but he’s publicly taken a step into Red Pill awareness and in doing so reveals women’s Hypergamous duplicity. Now, that is what it is, but that step into Red Pill awareness is something that makes women very uncomfortable when they don’t control the narrative about their own Hypergamy. It’s one thing to make Hypergamy ‘open’ in a commercial or in a book by an empowered woman, but let a man reveal it in his perspective and he’s “bitter” or it’s an “insane rant” by a Nice Guy who’s only Nice because he thinks it’ll get him laid.

As I was saying, in the future I expect to see less Nice Shaming as the machinations of Hypergamy becomes part of men’s popular consciousness. The result, like most others brought on by feminine social primacy, will be men taking women at their word – “women can do things without a man’s help” and they “aren’t fragile things you need to defend” – and they’ll get the men they deserve; men who will understand that niceties aren’t in fact exchangeable for appreciation, intimate or otherwise. Their attentions, courtesies and help will be reserved for the women who actually deserve and reciprocate it rather than due to it being some default chivalry that’s expected of them. And they’ll abandon the strong independent women (and even the ones who look like them) to their fates, while they cry about the lack of self-sacrificing ‘real men’ to love and help them when it’s convenient for them.

It’ll take a while. Obviously the same Nice Shaming from a decade ago still manifests like this occasionally, and the predictable “women don’t owe you sex” indignation is still the reflexive response. But as the old exchanges of the old rules are cycled out for the cruel, but accepted, realities that the Red Pill outlines, women will get exactly the men they deserve. Men who will give them respect based on their real personal merits and only offer niceties to the ones who wont spit in their faces or accuse them of sexual harassment for doing so.

As it stands now, Nice Shaming serves as a filter for women’s Hypergamy. The guys who Just Get It don’t post notes like this. Guys who get it learn from that frustration, they adapt, they experiment, they adjust and they develop Game to exploit the real intersexual rules in play, and they don’t make grandiose displays of the real game.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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[…] The Price of Nice […]

ManOfGrapes
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I’m always baffled at what circulates around the internet. My gut is to say that some feminazi wrote this up in her spare time to spark some drama on social media. Regardless, today’s AFC, while possibly more aware of the dynamics of the sexual marketplace than ten years ago, does not necessarily foster the growth or self-awareness needed to attract quality women. Even with Red Pill exposure, nothing guarantees that an AFC will successfully swallow the pill and internalize what they need to. IMO, I believe they lean toward MGTOW and take what they can get with women even if… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Ah, I remember these days. All the sweet, sweet indignation. As a data point – I can remember feeling like the dude who wrote this, but I’m having difficulty really empathizing at this point. I mean, I SYMPATHIZE but it just doesn’t compute at some level. This attitude is just unproductive and sad and angry. I used to be emotional about a lot of things. Now I’m not so much. I suppose this is an example of the phenomenon you predict – that men will, as they become more aware, express themselves less in gut-wrenching rants and just allocate their… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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I suppose the weirdest thing, looking at this from the outside, is just the utter diconnect in communication on display. I mean, I expect it knowing what I do, but it is pretty fucking weird when you think about it – just the total non-sequitur in the replies to this screed. Like their brain literally just….skipped the point, wouldn’t let them see it. That’s really the most frustrating part for the AFC. And it was one of the last things I learned. I remember I sat down my old gf, and spent about an hour going through the dynamics at… Read more »

Vitriol
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@Forge the Sky “I used to be emotional about a lot of things. Now I’m not so much. I suppose this is an example of the phenomenon you predict – that men will, as they become more aware, express themselves less in gut-wrenching rants and just allocate their attention differently.” I’ve certainly gotten way past the kind of frustration that a guy like this feels, but I think that just comes with the experience of seeing female behavior patterns repeated over and over again until you know what to expect. When you realize women function as amoral opportunists in practice… Read more »

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IAS
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The women’s note response just made me think back to the post a few weeks back…

Women can do things without a gentlemen to help.

They just need the “cowboys” that Rollo posted about to protect them:
http://therationalmale.com/2016/02/03/the-war-brides-of-europe/

Or to give them their AFs.

And having a BB provider is also nice. When they are ready for it (as per Sandberg’s often mentioned quote).

Sun Wukong
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@Forge Yeah I mostly agree. I mean, I get where their indignation comes from. What person wouldn’t want to live in a world where the most pleasant way to go through life – be friendly, respectful, kind, and gentle to everyone and they’ll do the same for you – would also lead to a loving long term relationship with a supportive partner? I mean really, hypergamy is on its face the rejection of a way of living that really seems like a no-brainer. Why would you seek out people who don’t live that way, in effect complicating your own life… Read more »

genderbenderender
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for fucks sake breh did this really necessitate a 9000 line essay?
little piece of paper got u actin like a female.
who gives a shit.
and WTF is with this “SHAMING” shit.

theasdgamer
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It hurts to see you fall. “Fall” provokes “lol” in girls. Give the good guys a chance to make you be less afraid of the world.” Hamsterlation: We wanna White Knight for you against those bad boy date rapers. If you know someone is being hurt DO. SOME. THING. One word. Laundry. If you want to play the “good guy” you need to rethink your intentions. If you’re only doing it for gratification, then you aren’t being the good guy. Hamsterlation: “Alpha fux only. But we still want you available for white knighting and doing chores and giving us stuff.… Read more »

Ophir
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http://m.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/why-im-wary-of-men-who-call-themselves-feminists-20160312-gnhlpf.html

Related – feminist guys are evil because they break up with you, says feminist

kfg
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He is even being shamed for the fact that he used black duct tape to hang the note, because, ya know, “symbology” and shit.

My guess would be that he’s a theater/film major (creative, sensitive type) and black gaffer tape is simply what came immediately to hand.

Solus zos Galvus
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Some blue pillers are starting to get it http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

walawala
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Calibration is key. I am a “nice guy” to girls I’m gaming. But the point is not to either over-do it…or be “nice” in order to get something. There’s a series on Netflix I just finished watching called “Love”. It was cringe-worthy because the lead character Gus is a “nice” guy who’s Gamma most of the time. He bangs the hot Borderline Mickey who at first wants a dick but only when he stops calling because he inexplicably begins banging the other hot actress on set, drives Mickey crazy. From a Red Pill perspective the show is fascinating. On one… Read more »

SJF
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@Forge and Sun Wukong Forge: “And it was one of the last things I learned. I remember I sat down my old gf, and spent about an hour going through the dynamics at play and why leaving me was irrational, and watching her just sort of take the things that agreed with her emotions and just sort of….skip the rest.” Sun: “Granted, now that I have a framework to understand the “why”, I no longer feel the anger. There are still times though while I’m learning Game that I wish I could just default to being genuinely nice. It takes… Read more »

Scorpio
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@walawala You touched on a point that I was going to make. “Nice” is not the antithesis to getting laid. Neither is being an asshole a guarantee that one gets laid. It is perfectly fine, probably even helpful in one’s sexual quests, to be nice to girls. But, if the niceness is all a guy has then a girl is not going to consider him sexually viable. He has to have a ferocity also. I know it’s a small detail but I think it is important for guys new to the redpill to take note of. You don’t have to… Read more »

Unacknolodged_Legislator
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To use an analogy, just like the fiscal policies of ZIRP and QE has created market distortions and a massive misallocation of capital and resources, perhaps the same can be said of the current SMP. So here we are dealing with a distorted SMP and the rational response (or feedback loop) is to make some adjustments: detach from the meme’s, tropes, schemas, ect, MIGTOW for some, become a player, become a better man, acquire the dark arts of learned charisma and so on. I’m not sure how to answer to your observation Rollo on how divided (like politics have become)… Read more »

Fred Flange, Weeknd Dood
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I am a recovering nice guy, and I approve this message. I have banged on about this previously, but a few years back Cathi Hanauer did a book of essays, “The Bitch In The House”. In which the authoresses lament that they got the men they demanded – helpful supplicating choreplayers and stay at home duds – which, having won what they wanted, really really pissed them off. Available at your friendly 99 cent beat up table: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+bitch+in+the+house Hot off the presses is Rebecca Traister’s sociology tract “All the Single Ladies”, promoting, uh, let me see, it’ll come to me… Read more »

SJF
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“I’m not sure how to answer to your observation Rollo on how divided (like politics have become) as to how M\F polarization will swing the other way, sorta like the current state of party politics, or Fed policy guess we need an utter collapse to clear out the burned out forest.” One friendly reminder: Rollo has un-waveringly without saying it so overtly advocated a bottoms up approach to men developing red-pill awareness and game. A top down approach to utter collapse is too unpredictable. And not in the control of a singular man. And some with wealth or assets would… Read more »

kfg
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Nothing left to lose is a mindset, not a demographic.

SJF
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Agreed. It was the mindset of the woman. It was her Frame. But she was also a demographic woman (cough, cough….25 years his junior prone to addictions, cough, cough crack whore secretly, but cough, cough, a wonderful dick-wetter, she struck me as very feminine) that had that mindset. Nothing left to lose is a terrible mindset to subscribe to– Was my point. But I don’t know anything about that. I’m stoic. Low downside, high upside in mentality. But I’ve always been partial to having stuff. That I don’t want burned down. And damn, I miss that Vulpine guy. He taught… Read more »

prosperingman
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“If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.” Well, this is the ultimate in solipsism, with stunning ignorance of the scope and complexity of modern society. Whoever wrote it assumed that what they feel and think is so important, so infallible, and so out of their own control, that the ‘world’, which no one individual, much less a group, has any control over, would be easier to change. And indeed, that the world could be changed to accommodate their needs. I used to get bewildered at this level of narcissism.… Read more »

Trimegistus
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I’ve been startled several times by the sheer _venom_ with which women react to this kind of thing. They are actively, physically, _repulsed_ by the notion that a nice man who tries to be a good person should expect to ever have a satisfying sex life. The very idea is horrifying and hateful to women, and they respond with incoherent anger.

SJB
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“I want people to respect that I’d rather not walk with a stranger in the middle of the night.”
.
What? This is hilarious. Must be a sleepwalker prone to pad out of her safe space.

SJF
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“Nothing left to lose is a mindset, not a demographic.” Certain demographics certainly have certain mindsets. (heheh, Heartiste and Politics). The original post is about a mindset of women in regards to the AFC nice guy. But is also about a demographic. It would be nice if it were more mindset and non-demographic. Shit, Alan Watts said: “My wish would be to tell, not how things ought to be, but how they are, and how and why we ignore them as they are. You cannot teach an ego to be anything but egotistic, even though egos have the subtlest ways… Read more »

kfg
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“Nothing left to lose is a terrible mindset to subscribe to–” It is the mindset of survivors. The graveyards are full of people who died needlessly over pointless stuff. You are on the street. Someone walks up to you and says, “The secret police are on the way to your house to disappear you. 3, 2, 1 . . . Go!” The feminine nester goes . . . home. Straight to her demise. The masculine stoic warrior goes. With what is on his person if he has to, or to his safe house to grab his go bag if he… Read more »

SJB
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@kfg: My condolences. May your mother rest in peace.

SJF
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“…mother died in this house (my mother last week, in my arms).” Condolences. And even though we are conversing publicly, let me state that your mental point of origin teachings are wonderful. Thank you. My father died a year ago and he, my mother and I are no worse for the wear because of the congruency and honest living of his and our lives. He died on his expiration date. Not too soon. Not to late. Good man and not bad at being a man. I think my mother may set some longevity records genes and habits and all. Repeat:… Read more »

theasdgamer
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Condolences, kfg.

Pinelero
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Almost thought that was a joke when I read that AFC’s open letter. The chicks response steeped in feminism should be evidence that his approach is not working and time to stop being himself. He probably doesn’t know why he’s upset and she may not know why she is upset. The irony of it all.

walawala
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@scorpio… Girls are very often rude …shit testing… But as I become more Red Pill fluent…it’s clear that means they’re attracted. At a party the other week I have a designated table I always sit at. I moved to sit with a male friend of mind and mingle. “Get back to your end of the room” an ex ex gf said to me. “I sit where I like…they’re all my tables” I said. Was she being “nice”? My response has to be something …anything that asserted my position of Not caring. I’ve been called “enigmatic” by girls. I take that… Read more »

rugby11
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“Men who will give them respect based on their real personal merits and only offer niceties to the ones who wont spit in their faces or accuse them of sexual harassment for doing so.”
Just spoke with my friend about his sexless marriage. Rollo your work makes me enjoy all aspects of my humanity. Hes struggling to get his sexual needs meet.
Still brain storming ways to help out.

rugby11
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Kfg Condolences

Craig
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“Did Batman give up on Gotham because people weren’t thanking him for saving the city?” I think I may have seen that episode somewheres either in the comics or the anime show. At least in in the Dark Knight movie we have this quote, “You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain.”
If villains are getting all the good pussy, then goddammit I’m gonna be a villain!

Saracen III
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Permit me to take the note at face value.

The women I hang with are smart, funny, cute (mostly), engaged, lively and capable, and they like all the things in the first paragraph.

They ignore me. They include me. They take me swimwear shopping.
Sometimes they make bad, bad choices in life and partners.
When it suits them they fuck me, with humor and delight.

I attribute my “access” and “success” to something simple:
their reasons are None Of My Business.

kfg
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My last debt to the FI has been paid. My only regret that the payments were not a bit steeper. At least with regards to her children she always did her best to keep the Old World, first set of books and legitimately paid for what I owed her. Oddly enough, although I am the last survivor of my line, she was the first to go of her generation. Her three sisters, one older and currently driving around the country in her 40 ft. motor home, survive her. I thought she would outlive them all. She did not have a… Read more »

stuffinbox
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“The time to worry wont be when guys post open letters like this in dorm hallways,the time to worry is when that ceases altogether.”

When looking at historic parallels I stumbled upon this.
From wickipedia
“The Emperors,anxious for their personal safety and the public peace,were reduced to the base expedient of corrupting the discipline which rendered them alike formidable to their sovereign and to the enemy;The vigor of the military government was relaxed,and finaly dissolved by the partial institutions of Constantine and the Roman world was overwhelmed by barbarians,”

stuffinbox
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@KFG Condolences

Sun Wukong
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@kfg

(my mother last week, in my arms)

I can think of few other ways a mother would rather go than being held by her son. It’s nice to hear that it ended that way. Good man.

@All

I have put up a fairly basic page for The Man Table. Links to download old shows and the scheduled time for the latest show are available, along with instructions on how to participate. Anyone planning to join next Saturday for recording should check it out.

kfg
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kfg
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“. . . the Roman world was overwhelmed by barbarians,”

. . . who were taken in as refugees. Good thing we have that example to go by and won’t let that sort of thing happen again.

Ang Aamer
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On one level we can all look at this as a screed of an AFC. But to me it’s the beginning of communal male understanding. This suffering man could have just shrugged and moved on. But no, he wrote down his pain and posted it publicly. And then someone saw it, snapped it and now it has a much wider distribution. Information is only viral when it has passed through the early adopters 2 sigma outside the mean. What you are seeing is the beginning of male hypergamy awareness. It only takes a few dudes noting the words and saying… Read more »

Craig
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“If you want us to be less afraid of the world, then change the world, don’t change us.” I am changing the world, and once it has changed, there is no going back to the way things were ever again. Count on it, bitch.

Sun Wukong
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It’s impossible to change the world. It is possible to change how people see the world, however.

Forge the Sky
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@kfg

Shit man. I actually kinda was wondering if something was up. Your writing always has perfectly distinctive voice and a few of them the past few days didn’t….

She died in a manner few people are privileged to in these times. It sounds like it was an ending blessed by virtues long lived.

bluepillprofessor
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>@Rollo: “Guys who get it learn from that frustration, they adapt, they experiment, they adjust and they develop Game to exploit the real intersexual rules in play, and they don’t make grandiose displays of the real game. > it’s not in women’s Hypergamous interests to understand or sympathize with a guy who’s brought their sexual strategy out into the open.” Words to live by Rollo. This is every bit as true in marriage, a LTR, or any other situation involving women. They know the game. They want YOU to know the game. They DO NOT want you to openly acknowledge… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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“in the future I expect to see less Nice Shaming as the machinations of Hypergamy becomes part of men’s popular consciousness.” I was thinking that in the future, the resistance to having things like the heavy and the older swimsuit models ending up in Sports Illustrated being forced on men will not come from men but come from attractive women. As was said in the article about male spaces, once the intrusion of females happens, the next thing is the attempt to change the space to fit more to what females want. Things like SI swimsuit edition is a male… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ wala Calibration is key. I am a “nice guy” to girls Calibration is more important in certain contexts where IOI’s might be more subtle. If a group of girls is fairly non-slutty, then calibration tells you to do the nice guy routine. If a girl is grinding on you and spanking your butt, no calibration is required. You still have to qualify them, of course, and compliance test them. Per scray’s recommendation, I got my hands on the girls Fri. and Sat. A lot. Lifted one in the air by her butt, spanked another after she spanked me first.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Sun “Yeah I mostly agree. I mean, I get where their indignation comes from. What person wouldn’t want to live in a world where the most pleasant way to go through life – be friendly, respectful, kind, and gentle to everyone and they’ll do the same for you – would also lead to a loving long term relationship with a supportive partner? I mean really, hypergamy is on its face the rejection of a way of living that really seems like a no-brainer. Why would you seek out people who don’t live that way, in effect complicating your own life… Read more »

emilyy96
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Have you guys seen r/niceguys on reddit? Man the girls there are absolutely brutal towards niceguys… :/ Idk, but there does seem to be way too much tolerance nowadays for treating men poorly and w a bitchy attitude.
I remember seeing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmP1ier3R30
and thinking like wow guys actually do have it kinda rough xD

Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…

Water Cannon Boy
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Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…

So go ahead and tell them to be jerks to get in your pants. Problem solved.

Or was that the problem in the first place?
Damn, got to reread everything Rollo wrote on it.
I’ll be up late everybody.

Forge the Sky
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@Emily

“Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…”

How do you know which ones are?

Water Cannon Boy
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How do you know which ones are?

Made me laugh.
my guess, once they express they want to have sex.

Scorpio
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@walawala Great point. I couldn’t agree more about red-pill awareness, attraction, and shit-testing. Great comeback btw to the ex. I might borrow that ha! But I was speaking more about being nice when it is more opportunistic as a man to be so. Generally speaking (unless you’re doing pickup at a nightclub or the like), I find it better to be more well-mannered (nice) when you are first around a girl. A man should also be playful and teasing, but still relatively not too douchey. Then, once you have sex the shit tests will surely come. At that point, a… Read more »

dirkdiggly
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Good god…at some point these reminders of the average male mindset about sexual relations, fairness, rules, etc. just become cumbersome. I feel a mixture of revulsion, boredom, frustration, and compassion towards these guys. It’s a clear cry for help, sadly aimed at the gender least likely do give a crap or offer any actionable advice or assistance. Take them aside… show some heart. Let them know with a laugh and a smile to put themselves first, to not give a crap about the feigned outrage at notes like this, to just be a bit of a jerk for starters. Baby… Read more »

Agent P
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I think if you are going to do RP “nice” it mostly means just being unapologetic. You can be dominant but nice, you can be strong but nice, you can make it clear people / girls / women are not going to roll over you but still be nice. Being obsequious and snivelling, that is pussy desiccant right there. As a Canadian I had to do some hard verbal reprogramming when I took the RP. Every 5th word for many Canucks is “Sorry”. I now allow myself that word about once a quarter with my wife and instead have been… Read more »

playdontpay
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Sat my main plate down last week and told her how it is. It’s been just over a year, she is 30 so 18 years younger than me and i know she sees marriage in her future. Being a “nice guy” lol I told her she will never get the commitment or kids she wants from me, and that if she can find some mush to provide those things she should go for it. Her response? Pornstar level sex and our first “home video” the next weekend. I keep her around because she is a squirter and super low maintenance,… Read more »

matt
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If a woman and a man has a perfect relationship, understanding, personal growth and thousands of things that women say. They are just friends The sexual part makes it a romantic relationship. The nice guys, they can get everything else, but not sexual desire, her nipples she is excited, her vagina is wet. The desire for sex is what they want to get for the man-woman relationship, be validated as men, because according to have done what it means to be a man, sex can hire a prostitute anywhere in the world, but can not buy validacion if desired, they… Read more »

Vitriol
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@matt ““A new study Suggests That high-status female college students employ” slut discourse “- defining Their styles of femininity and Approaches to sexuality as classy rather than trashy or slutty – to assert class advantage and put Themselves in a position Where They can sexual enjoy exploration with few social consequences ”” It should be pretty obvious to those of us who have interacted with women in their 20s-30s in the U.S. that they have “boyfriends” who pay their bills, but they still fuck around and do whatever they want anyway. They’re fucking guys for adderall and weed while their… Read more »

Johnycomelately
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I think niceness is the outcome of education and the forced entrainment of egalitarianism, hyper-empathy, altruism, servitude and group consensus in boys. A boy’s natural masculine proclivities are severely castigated and he is only rewarded if he sublimates his own will in the service of others. He becomes conditioned to the reward of self effacement instead of the natural male activities of status jockeying, seeking dominance and pushing boundaries. It’s a conditioned form of reverse narcissism where the self doesn’t exist and is sublimated to serve the other, a kind of inverse infantilism. The same strictures don’t apply to girls… Read more »

matt
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@Vitriol
“I really don’t have any sympathy for them anymore either”
me too.

After years of hearing from slut-shame, racist, poor women being oppressed.

It ends up being a projection of white feminists upper class, saying that they are against it, when they are the ones who use it with classist, racist and xenophobic purposes.

El Cid
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“I’ve been startled several times by the sheer _venom_ with which women react to this kind of thing. They are actively, physically, _repulsed_ by the notion that a nice man who tries to be a good person should expect to ever have a satisfying sex life. The very idea is horrifying and hateful to women, and they respond with incoherent anger.” I’ve remarked in the past – I used to “hateread” the major feminist blogs – that judging by sheer volume of ink spilled Nice Guys are more of a problem than actual rapists (as opposed to the white fratboy/jock… Read more »

Shane
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Ur insane!

Sun Wukong
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emilyy96
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@Forge Well, the guys posting notes on boards to say how they are nice but all the girls ignore them clearly were nice just go get with us. That said, I sort of agree w Rollo here that there is a startling amount of toxicity from some women towards genuinely nice guys. I def noticed that on Reddit. Personally, I don’t mind niceguys, but I do mind when they feel entitled to something just cause they were nice. Example, theres this guy living in my building who once saw me coming back from Barnes and Noble’s with books and magazines.… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Do you care if a girl is a nice person? I doubt it.”

Meanwhile, back in the projection room . . .

Elmasguapo
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– your body wanted to be a man since you were a toddler
– your body wanted to create and build
– your body pushed you to behave like a man
– but your elementary school taught you that physical strength doesn’t matter because womenzfeelz…
– and your energy to create and lead doesn’t matter because womenzfeelz…
– and your confidence that you are doing the right thing, the smart thing, the best long term outcome, doesn’t matter because womenzfeelz…
– our boys are in crisis

BuenaVista
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“Do you care if a girl is a nice person? I doubt it.” Wow. This is beyond projection. It’s intellectual and emotional bankruptcy. But thanks for pulling back the curtain another couple of inches. Sure, I want to spend the next 30 years of my life with a woman self-empowering through her cultivation of Peak Bitch Mode. I have one girlfriend who also is puzzled by the impact of her own behavior. She’s a senior person in a very tough business, so I gather that she and her friends periodically say to themselves, “Yeah, I need to act like Hillary… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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You can include the book “No more Mr. Nice Guy” right at the top of the shaming material if you ask me. That book had some good stuff in it, but the crap about covert contracts and ulterior motives always pissed me off. I could never formulate the exact reason why until after reading this post. I remember being that nice guy. What pissed me off wasn’t that women weren’t automatically throwing their pussies at me. What pissed me off was that I wasn’t even going to get a shot. Regarding the covert contract and ulterior motives thing, how was… Read more »

having a bad day
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@kfg

My condolences. It sounds like you both got the family you deserved…

Good luck!

Seraph
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@Forge the Sky “Game has just made me comfortable acting on my physical impulses with them.” This… THIS is the essence of the Nice Guy problem; why they get stuck as orbiters and in the Friend Zone. At least it was with me, and I think it applies to many. Men are taught to suppress any expression of sexuality unless you are of the vaunted AF, and even then, your better watch your ass! It’s not about being an asshole or jerk, or even some psychopathic thug…those are only indicators of people who don’t have trouble expressing, even demanding, their… Read more »

Sentient
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“I remember being that nice guy. What pissed me off wasn’t that women weren’t automatically throwing their pussies at me. What pissed me off was that I wasn’t even going to get a shot.”

underlying all beta behavior is an impotent rage… because the motives are not honest (i.e. authentic) and the effort always in someone else’s frame. whether in work or in love the same outcome… unfulfilled desire and rage.

PS -BuenaVista! Good to see you posting again.

Seraph
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@Is This Thing On? “That book had some good stuff in it, but the crap about covert contracts and ulterior motives always pissed me off.” Hey, I read the same book, and while it was over a year ago, I THINK maybe your are mis-interpreting his point about the covert contracts. If I recall, Glover points out that many men don’t assert themselves about what they want and need in various relationships (can be friends, spouses, lover, family) and just assume that other people will understand those needs AND reciprocate them without being asked or put to task over it.… Read more »

SJB
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emilyy96 — who self-identifies as a devout Catholic young woman—cannot express gratitude to a man who relieved her of her burden.
.
The perdition that is womanhood.

Is This Thing On?
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@Sentient, I couldn’t disagree more about the authenticity part. The entire point to my post is that the motives of the average blue pill beta are completely authentic and honest. The problem is that nearly from birth they are taught “THIS IS HOW YOU SHOW A GIRL YOU ARE INTERESTED”. (screaming at society, not you) Essentially, the rule book says, if you are interested in a girl, show her you are a good a willing provider. The Blue Pill Beta is then in his mind overtly showing interest. He isn’t trying to pass one off on the sly. He honestly… Read more »

Sentient
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“The happiest and ‘luckiest’ I ever was in sexual relations was when I was gleefully pursuing simple hedonistic pleasures. I was not a jerk or an asshole to those women, but I was not overly invested in them, and expressed myself fairly openly in my desires and they responded.”

Extrapolate this out to all facets of your life… by pursuing the Platinum Rule [do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it]…

Is This Thing On?
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@Seraph

I disagree with Glover on the honesty part. Glover asserts the “nice guy” is being covert and dishonest. I disagree. The nice guy has been taught the wrong language.

Its kind of like this story I heard where some douche bag decided to teach his kids the wrong words simply to screw them up. Imagine going to school thinking a pencil was called a sailboat. Man I bet that was hysterical to watch (not). That is exactly what has been done to men.

Sentient
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Is this Thing On…

Following the Rule Book does not negate that the rules are dishonest and inauthentic, as you say, the Blue Pill Rule book is a lie… so following it make you a liar…

You can be very nice to women, from an authentic place of being nice. And it will be well received. It may even result in sex… holy mindfuck batman! HOWEVER it will be because you were being nice from your own authentic no strings attached, no favors sought frame…

And that is the lesson. Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.

Seraph
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@Sentient,

“Extrapolate this out to all facets of your life…”

I am trying. Really! Swear…I’ve mentioned before how I suddenly realized at middle-age that I really had lost touch with who I was, if I ever really knew it, and was battling back to find it.

Trying to fight the BP programming and have to consider everything in regards to affect on the kids, but I hear you. I have expanding my interests and letting go of shit holding me back, even if it is literally stuff lying around the house which is no longer relevant and/or use to me.

Sentient
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Seraph…

welcome!

SD
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SD
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Given the legal and social acceptance of open hypergamy, we are fast approaching the day when females won’t even interact with nice guys period. I’ve come to discover that dating as we and our parents knew it in High School is effectively over. Teenage girls either bang Alphas or stand fast while using orbiters as financial and emotional appliances. Those guys have better luck becoming astronauts then getting into her pants under the “First Set of Books”. Given the increased earning, political, and social power of women today , it’s debatable whether they even need Betas anymore from a finance… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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@sentient, we will have to agree to disagree. IMHO believing a lie doesn’t make you a liar, it makes you a dupe. I’m arguing about intent here. We both arrive at the same place with regard to the question of what to do about it so at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter. I simply refuse to blame the men still left behind for their plight. They are operating in what they believe is the truth. They didn’t generate the lie. They are stuck in it. If you don’t focus the blame on the true source, you… Read more »

Sentient
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Is This Thing On

” These young men have my sympathy, not my scorn. ”

They can earn some sympathy by at least doing something about it… those that bemoan that they weren’t taught or that the “old” rules aren’t being kept WHILE doing nothing (but moaning)… well that is the impotent beta rage.

and they consign themselves to be “vol”cel at that point. Follow the maxim “reality is real” and deal with it, or suffer the results…

Seraph
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@Is This Thing On, “I disagree with Glover on the honesty part. Glover asserts the “nice guy” is being covert and dishonest. I disagree. The nice guy has been taught the wrong language.” This is where I think confusion can occur, which was the point of my first comment. I could be wrong, as I am speaking from my experience, not yours, but bear with me… Is the nice guy REALLY being honest, in the sense of “to thine own self be true?” In my experience, I, over the years, suppressed a WHOLE LOT of things, feelings and emotions. Did… Read more »

Sentient
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“Example, theres this guy living in my building who once saw me coming back from Barnes and Noble’s with books and magazines. This guy ran over to the door to open it for me, then ran to the lift to hoold it open for me, then carried the stuff for me. and at the end, OF COURSE, asked me for my number. Now that itself is fine. Kinda annoying but fine” LOLZ… Sooo many chestnuts today, but it’s not fall? Now nowhere does our hero(ine) DECLINE his help… How many men would allow a 350LB blue hair to do the… Read more »

Seraph
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@Sentient,

“Now nowhere does our hero(ine) DECLINE his help…”

Interesting catch…

You could maybe excused the door holding, both times, but it seems she could have told him when it came to carrying the shit that she was fine but really appreciated the help all the same.

Instead she does nothing to discourage him until he asks for her number, and then gets annoyed by it.

And, I get it, she doesn’t HAVE to give her number, but getting annoyed because he ASKED.

Oy…Whatever issues I got, I don’t know being single is any picnic today…

Dutchman
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“Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…”

What makes you think those dudes just want to get in your pants? Most of them would happily wife up the first pretty girl that comes along and be her beta bucks for life.

Sentient
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“Instead she does nothing to discourage him until he asks for her number, and then gets annoyed by it.

Seraph… but why does she get annoyed? easy – it’s programming. solipsism is real… she is annoyed, absolving herself of the guilt from knowing using the beta and reframing everything back to her plight.

Ta da! No guilt! No remorse! Righteous anger!!!! How dare HE…!

Cats are not dogs.

bluepillprofessor
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@Is This Thing On: “The logical but naive young man decides he wants to start dating. His logical conclusion is to start doing the mating dance. He well remembers what his mama or pussy wiped father taught him about how that goes. So he goes out into the world and dances his heart out. He dances to the sound of crickets. He doesn’t expect it to start raining pussy on him. He expects a shot… and he doesn’t get it. It’s not because he is being covert or having unreasonable expectations. It’s because the blue pill mating dance he was… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Nice Shaming (as our resideny twit has blithely demonstrated) is so often this bullshit false dichotomy that leaves me thinking:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/538/851/a64.jpg

WarriorMonk
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The only way to garner true appreciation, true valuation, truly inspired displays of affection, from women is to covertly imply the risk of losing a high-value Man. Whether the man is even truly of a higher value is irrelevant, only the perception needs to be reinforced for her. Risk of loss is all that factors. Risk of losing an investment in optimizing hypergamy is weighed against her own perceived sexual market value and the effort needed to reinvest in another, potentially higher SMV man. Risk of loss is why her imagination furiously spins the wheel in her head. TRUTH. Was… Read more »

having a bad day
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@Seraph “In my experience, I, over the years, suppressed a WHOLE LOT of things, feelings and emotions. Did I not know they were there? Well, sometimes, maybe, because one can get good at automatically suppressing things you do it long enough. ” = FI success… “I am living with a roommate. His younger, attractive sister comes to live with us for a while. I am attracted to her, I like her, she likes me, I sense there is some real potential there, she puts out some signals, but I don’t act on it, even to simply flirt and see what’s… Read more »

Pellaeon
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“Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.” I agree, IF one can be nice toward women, AND also express clearly, either overtly or covertly, attraction toward them. So long as you can also convey pre-selection and DHV in the process. I field tested the “just be direct and authentic with desire” for a year. I did approximately 1000 approaches, got six dates, and only one lay. While she had a cute face, she was definitely more overweight than myself. Being straightforward and never inducing dread is handicapping your SMV. @Is this thing on I would advise you let go… Read more »

Sentient
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Pellaeon

” I did approximately 1000 approaches, got six dates, and only one lay.”

Hey are you a London Daygame expert?

having a bad day
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@Sun re why not both?… generations of hard-wired survival adaptations…lol (note – i happen to agree with you on this btw…lol…doesn’t change reality though… = FI in play…) your attitude = FI in play bc it is expecting girls to take action (meet you halfway = making it ‘easy’ for you to get sex/reproduction…)…as opposed to being ‘reactive’…which is what they ARE… also, you CAN have both…but as the man, it’s YOUR job to make it happen…you just have to do it from your frame…(and i really wasn’t kidding about only having to make one or two small changes to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@HABD

Don’t misunderstand me. These days I have no doubt as to my intents and don’t play the Nice Guy. But yes, the false dichotomy is 100% FI.

bluepillprofessor
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“Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.”

So…Just Be Yourself. Got it.

Wild Man
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Having good intentions towards others is not a bad thing. But as such a boy grows up, there are social signals all over the place that tell such a boy that: good intentions towards others = self-sacrifice This meme is the worst BS. The Church is a good place to be fed this crap for example (but it is a primary meme, almost to the level of being an unspoken subconscious meme – so deeply ingrained, that is everywhere in culture – it is just subtly implied everywhere). The boy starts out having good intentions towards others probably because he… Read more »

El Cid
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“Then again, there are many nice guys only being nice to you to get in your pants and that is infuriating…” What makes you think those dudes just want to get in your pants? Most of them would happily wife up the first pretty girl that comes along and be her beta bucks for life. Ironically, the Nice Guy approach is calculated to communicate high investment – that he’s not just trying to get into the woman’s pants. That he’s willing to demonstrate his willingness to proffer provider behavior far in advance of sex. He’s trying to say that he’s… Read more »

Sentient
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BPP

““Be authentic and you won’t often be wrong.”
So…Just Be Yourself. Got it.”

Trite but wrong… If you “being yourself” is you being passive aggressive, dishonest with your motives and filled with impotent rage, well that won’t work…

But you know that.

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