“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.” – Mark Twain
Well I finally had a chance to watch Roosh vs. the bloggers – there are no journalists left in the world – debate (it was anything but a press conference) and it was about what I expected. Every opportunity these bloggers had was to call him on his beliefs and his position on the state of the world with the intent to dismiss, marginalize or ridicule him.
By my estimate, there wasn’t a single blogger present who was older than 30 and each took turns couching their questions in terms that would challenge his perspectives with respect to their own. They weren’t there to report; they were there to debate questions they’d already written their own answers before going in because, like Roosh, they live and die by the impressions their readers/commenters. Roosh tried to classify them as ‘establishment’ or ‘the media’, but in reality they are bloggers – ‘journalists’ in name only. What they really are is outrage brokers and together they have a symbiotic relationship.
Roosh manufactures outrage, they distribute it to the cubicle workers who want to feel engaged in a world outside their cubes. Roosh cancels the meet ups, the cube workers feel like they’ve won a battle with edgelord shit-head misogynists and the Rooshites (preemptively) declare a victory for raising awareness of the ‘free speech’ Social Justice Warriors want to curb. Ding, ding! Return to your corners for the next round.
All this does nothing to benefit men in the Red Pill awareness even marginal Roosh proponents want to believe is the good that comes from this circus. “At least he’s raising Red Pill awareness. Any press is good press, right?”
Wrong. Ask Subway if they think the press their spokesman Jared Fogel generated with his 15 year sentence for child pørn charges was helpful in raising awareness of how great their sandwiches are. Not that anyone is boycotting Subway sandwiches, but likewise, no one’s minds are changed after Roosh had this presser. Not the bloggers or Twiteratti that hate him, not the Neomasculists who were already onboard with him and certainly no one that’s never heard of the ‘sphere in a public fashion.
Team Roosh and team SJW are still what they are. The fact that we get women and men IRL who know about this “leader of some MRA group who wants to legalize rape” should be evidence enough of the reach this quick hit, easily digestible ‘outrage bite’ has.
It’s easy to say that fence-riding men who’d never heard of the manosphere (the manosphere Roosh disowned, remember?) will be made aware of it and embrace it, but that’s a convenient and unmeasurable metric to justify what really amounts to a very damaging PR fuck up. Or maybe it wasn’t a fuck up? Maybe it went exactly as planned; maybe even more successful than planned.
Let me be clear, this is not an apologetic. Roosh masterfully turned (intentional or not) this to his advantage by playing all the bloggers present in the room to his narrative on his terms. He did exactly what he should’ve – no apologies, no admissions of guilt, and he forced these tools to play the cards he was dealing. He was handed a golden video op on a silver platter by these young journalists bloggers who knew going in that they were compromising the “journalistic integrity” their communications class teachers told them they had.
My concern isn’t how he handled this, it’s why he put himself (and other men who admire him) into this. My concern is that any genuineness he might’ve had about Neomasculinity is suspect of being just a vehicle for his own notoriety. If that’s the direction he’s chosen to go, if that’s how he’s decided to turn a dollar, I wish him good luck, but he’s become a dishonest broker of outrage at the expense (in some cases physically and financially) of the men who believed he was sincere.
If you read through the Deadbedrooms or Divorce subredds, there are countless men there who would save or change their lives if they embraced Red Pill awareness, but for whatever reason they get violently hostile at any mention of a TRP solution to their circumstances. How many of these fence-riders will look at Roosh and just have all those biases confirmed about TRP now?
Roosh is just playing a character now; one that the outrage brokers want and need:
I wrote about exactly this dynamic on Return of Kings in the only guest post I ever wrote for the site:
If the “postponement” of the ABC 20/20 manosphere “exposé” has taught us anything it’s that the writers seeking to cast light on the manosphere are looking for crazy. They need crazy because it’s the only thing they know how, or have the patience, to confront in as minimal an effort as it takes to type a few paragraphs dismissing it as misogyny.
Writers (vichy male writers) like R. Tod Kelly are also lazy. They see an opportunity for outrage that sells advertising. They wanted Stormfront and what they got was a global consortium of rational, well reasoned men with jobs, families and intelligence, men from all walks of life, all ethnicities, and socioeconomic backgrounds expressing ideas that don’t fit into an acculturation of feminine primacy.
If you read Matt Forney’s 20/20 interview post you’ll see the desperation for crazy in their producer’s attempts to provoke him to become what they think he should be – a frothing, angry, hate-fueled misogynist. That would make it easy for them, they know how to sell crazy. The copy gets approved, the crazies get marginalized and we move on to the next Mabeline commercial.
But they didn’t get crazy from Matt, or Roosh (okay Paul Elam looks a bit like Charles Manson in a certain light)—they got well reasoned, sensibility that was hard to argue against, so they attempted to prompt the crazy by barraging Roosh with questions about rape in the hopes that he’d blow up. He wouldn’t. They wanted it to be easy. They wanted to know all they needed to know about the manosphere by sourcing Manboobz, interviewing three manosphere bloggers and then trot out the crazy, show off the carnival freak, demonize and marginalize him and frog march the crazy off the stage. They wanted fringe, the easy kind of fringe that their journalism, communications and women’s studies classes taught them the easy answers to confront it with.
But the manosphere isn’t fringe. For as much as R. Tod Kelly, or the producers at ABC would like it to be, the manosphere is too broad, too comprehensive, too diverse for anyone unfamiliar with it to really understand it, much less deliver an unbiased objective opinion of it. So Kelly follows formula and makes the same lame attempts at simple aspersion and misogynistic dismissal 20/20 had already failed in doing (as evidenced by their segment’s postponement). The Daily Beast wanted its formulaic red meat, but Kelly is just dishing out ABC’s cold left-overs.
The MSM wants crazy. Crazy gets clicks. There was a time Roosh would’ve responded with far more measured and reasonable responses to these allegations, now he’s found it necessary to adopt the crazy that the MSM wants. He did it artfully, but he’s given them the ugly caricature, the black & white melodramatic misogynist who’s easy to hate.
They want a villain, a misogynist, a chauvinist, a caveman and a guy easily ridiculed in a feminine-primary social order and it appears Roosh is more than happy to give that to them if it means he can profit from it.
The problem with delivering the crazy is that Roosh does so at the expense of men who would otherwise benefit from genuine Red Pill awareness. I approach Red Pill awareness from a bottom up perspective because it is important that men effect real change in their lives and their thinking on a personal level.
I disagree on many ‘doctrinal’ tenets of Neomasculinity for any number of reasons, but the core Red Pill principles Neomasculinity appropriates are still there. Roosh does Red Pill truth-seeking men no favors by making a mockery of those very core principles he claims for the basis of Neomasculinity with his readiness to play a dangerous game with those men’s lives for his personal benefit. All Roosh does in playing this character is polarize men into a team mentality with no real change beyond an Us vs. Them shift.
It might feel good to rally and shake a fist at SJWs and feminists, but it does nothing to educate a man with Red Pill awareness so he knows why he’s in the social conditions he finds himself with women and a large feminine-centric social structure. That takes far more effort and personal investment in that man than simply recruiting him with an easy cause and an easier enemy to hate.
Roosh calling for public meet ups on a RoK six weeks in advance on a site that claims 1 million unique hits a month is not just “a chance for likeminded guys to get together for a beer” it is the bait and the time needed to draw a response from exactly the opposition he’ll complain is out to get him when they predictably do. Granted, that opposition took the bait as predicted, and along with it the outrageous capital he’d hoped to generate, but he’s only going to be able to cry wolf like this so many times before he marginalizes not just himself, but the validity of Red Pill awareness.
In fact that may be forthcoming sooner than he expects. Of course the outrage brokers he hopes to offend will be more than happy for the blog fodder, but at some point he’ll become passé and like PT Barnum he’ll be forced to up his game due to people rolling their eyes at another one of Roosh’s set ups. This is the same formula he’s been using since the London stop of last year’s world tour; he’s got to go bigger on the next push to keep the interest going.
Satire and Irony
Roosh suggesting the legalization of rape on private property wasn’t satire. It was irony, it was juxtaposition to expose a counter point – that women need to accept at least some responsibility for the consequences of their sexual indiscretions – it was illustrative sarcasm, and it was an allegorical thought experiment, but it was neither satire nor parody.
It was an essay in exposing the duplicity of women’s hypoagency – the idea that certain individuals (e.g. women) lack agency in their own actions. They lack control. They are not actors … rather, they are acted upon. The corollary to that argument being that they are not responsible for their own actions. Yet the cultural narrative of the omni-empowered, Strong Independent Woman® is completely at odds with exactly women’s hypoagency with regard to rape. They are powerful and purposeful when it serves and entirely unaccountable and blameless when it’s not convenient.
There was an “entirely serious” article written by Femitheist (on Vice no less) not long ago ‘suggesting’ the systematic culling of 90% of the male population. It turned out to be less-than-serious, but it was written in the same vein as Roosh’s rape legalization “satire” to illustrate a counterpoint.
Difference? A woman wrote it.
If a woman had written, verbatim, what Roosh had, the irony wouldn’t have been intentionally missed. There would’ve been some friction for suggesting rape is any woman’s fault, ever, under any circumstance (hypoagency) – and it would be even more salient had an anti-feminist woman wrote it – but readers would’ve gotten the gist of the irony. Just as they eventually did with Femitheist’s article.
If a homosexual like Milo Yianopoulos had written it, he’d have been met with the same friction, perhaps even more censorship at his speaking engagements, but readers would’ve gotten the irony – and with a giggle because he’s a cheeky Brit with fabulously gay bleached hair.
Outrage Sells
We live in an age of outrage media. I’ve written in the past about how women need indignation as part of their innate solipsistic make up, so it follows that in an era where men are feminized to the point that they think wearing skirts and heels are a legitimate form of protest against mass rape that fem-men would also lap up the same indignation. They lap it up because they identify with the feminine, with being women themselves.
All one need do today is search for “Rapsit beaten by” on YouTube or Google to see just how far that rape hysteria has ensaturated society. Label a man a ‘rapist’ in the slightest degree of seriousness and you have carte blanche to kill him or destroy his life and livelihood. No doubt Roosh is aware of this judging from the volume of death threats he’s received for the mere perception that he may be a rapist or the oblivious lack of critical thought that he’d seriously advocate for legalizing rape.
He knows this because he’s written, in my opinion, one of the most insightful essays on exactly this social order – The Most Insidious Method of Control Never Devised.
Roosh wrote the seminal essay on how insidious the threat of “stealing a man’s bread” has in controlling his decisions and silencing him. This is why it pains me to see Tweets like this after so elaborate an effort of publicity at the potential cost of other men’s bread – men who believe in the sincerity of what’s only a vehicle for his notoriety now:
https://twitter.com/rooshv/status/696825522727317504
I had to reconsidered doing this breakdown of Roosh’s very blatant attention trolling at the expense of anyone who would’ve thought his intents were genuine about organizing a world wide meeting of the tribes. I’m in a difficult position here.
By posting I get tagged with not being cooperative to the manosphere on whole by exposing Roosh for the marketeer he’s regretably turning himself into. On Twitter and the previous thread I get accused of cutting Roosh off at the knees for not being a team player because “any press is good press” (false) and even if he is the Svengali he is, well, at least the ‘sphere is getting some spill-over publicity.
I say that’s bullshit, and then I’m reminded of my own reasons for involving myself in writing what I do and who I write for.
Not only is it bullshit, but it’s bullshit that damages the capital that the ‘sphere collectively has developed for over a decade now. Roosh isn’t making any new converts to Neomasculinity or anything else with this, and while his epic trolling of SJWs and fem-stream media bloggers deserves the highest praise, it’s regrettable the cost should come from men who are genuinely looking for the answer Red Pill awareness provides.
The Red Pill Monthly
Niko Choski and I will be discussing this post and other topics on the next installment of The Red Pill Monthly youtube Livecast this Friday, February 12th at 10AM Pacific Standard Time.
You can follow the link here.
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
[…] Outrage Brokers […]
“Roosh masterfully turned (intentional or not) this to his advantage by playing all the bloggers present in the room to his narrative on his terms.” But he really should have spent the past couple years as a Toastmasters member. He’s improved a lot since his first videos where he had all the presence of a piece of dry toast, but he has a long way to go. And it’s not like that very advice wasn’t given on his own board years ago. If he wanted to be a guru, he should have done his prep work. “This is the same… Read more »
@ Rollo “It might feel good to rally and shake a fist at SJWs and feminists, but it does nothing to educate a man with Red Pill awareness so he knows why he’s in the social conditions he finds himself with women and a large feminine-centric social structure.” I think you need to take two thinks to account here Rollo; a) Some ppl will find your blog or some other better blog through Roosh larping around the world. I think I found RT some 4 years back when ROK had an article about how Milliclub was the easiest place to… Read more »
As they say live by the sword die by the sword. I don’t think he actually expected this, because (this time) his intentions were innocent. It was an excellent demonstration of just how easy the media can smear someone.
Rollo looks at the problem through the lens of branding, since that is his specialty. The problem is that not all issues are nails that can be addressed by the branding hammer. Others view it through a different lens. For example, Vox Day, Mike (Danger&Play) or Heartise might cite the long game and using Alinsky tactics on the Saulties, as this type of trolling does in fact polarize and freeze the enemy in an extreme caricature which is not at all flattering to observers. Worst of all is the cucks (spellcheck tried to correct that to ‘ducks’, heh) at AVfM… Read more »
Self improvement doesn’t threated the first matriarchy cause there arent enough alphas to go around. But men meeting in meat space and forming relationships is the necessary precurser to real political change. This should be supported, not criticized.
Do u support men and marriage or the FI? Your precious red pill defends marriage busting adulterous relationships on reddit all day long. I wonder.
It never ceases to amaze me how sjw’s, feminazi’s, big media, etc. refuse to support free speech and the free exchange of ideas. Nothing is to be questioned. Do as one’s told. Obey. Roosh won’t obey and must, therefore, be destroyed. He is self-serving and selfish imho. I’m not sure what his plan is or if he even has one. I do know that I’ve seen so much man hating ‘hate speech’ over decades that Roosh’s writing pales in comparison. He makes some very valid points re: lack of female responsibility in his ‘rape’ endorsement. I’ve concluded he is most… Read more »
On the flip of Roosh, side here’s another free long infield breakdown vid by Tyler, who the Roosh cult will tell you is taking advantage of guys and luring them in to suck their money away with tactics that don’t work and they’re a huge scam etc etc …meanwhile Roosh posts a “this is the time to support ROK” post begging for donations, after putting everyone in his cult on the front-line of danger having their faces exposed and their careers (and possibly health, like that one Toronto video where the guy was planning to shoot his followers) ruined so… Read more »
@Rollo: Maybe I’m too naive but given that according to stuff you write, I understand that Roosh himself has his financial survival compromised for some years. Similarly so for Athol Kay which “sold out”. This doesn’t excuse any of them from “sacrificing” other men (in one way or the other) to prop themselves up, but is hardly surprising for people that are aware of stuff like the Laws of Power, “Game is amoral” and so on. What is the fundamental difference in doing this kind of amoral sacrifice for self-benefit, and knowingly gaming and having sex with someone’s wife? The… Read more »
@IAS “What is the fundamental difference in doing this kind of amoral sacrifice for self-benefit, and knowingly gaming and having sex with someone’s wife?” My view of it (not at all endorsed by Rollo I’m just throwing out my thoughts off the top of my head): Ideally all guys learn game and they bang enough taken girls that they lose the blue pill illusions that guys are under thinking their girl won’t cheat on them, and they learn to understand why women cheat, Hypergamy, etc and the next generation of men as a whole bail on that whole Disney fantasy… Read more »
What a remarkable month! So far this year The United Kingdom Parliament’s House of Commons has devoted three hours of its time as to why Donald Trump – who wants to build a wall in America, not Britain, note, where all he wants to do is build a golf course and thus provide employment opportunities – should be refused a Visa and a further half -hour as to why Roosh V. – who made a Swiftean modest proposal – should likewise be turned down for a Visa. In Britain there is the government and likewise its official opposition and the… Read more »
Thanks for this. This is exactly what I’d been pondering. I’d expressed a very similar thought on TRP reddit, but was quickly shut down. I’d like TRP’s press to be as stoic as TRP teaches men to be: Let the feminists and nay-sayers hurl insults and accusations at TRP. What happens? They might land a hit, but then they slide off, leaving TRP unaffected. Stoic. Like a rock. Like a Man should be. TRP remains an ‘alternative’ mentality, but not further berated. The only real argument I’ve heard about why Roosh’s antics don’t make a difference is that if/when a… Read more »
YaReally thanks dude. I just finished watching the previous Tyler infield..will try to watch this one tomorrow. It’s fantastic quality stuff. Both the pickup and the analysis. Also, I find it is useful even for me (as someone who buys into this philosophy already) to have reinforcement that looks and cash don’t matter, women just want emotional spikes etc. Whether that’s your posting or these videos or whatever..I still get so much of the social programming hammered into my head that I need to make an *ongoing* effort to hold the red pill view in my head..it’s not just a… Read more »
It’s easy to say that fence-riding men who’d never heard of the manosphere (the manosphere Roosh disowned, remember?)
In fact, he disowned it as early as 2013:
http://www.rooshv.com/the-manosphere-is-lost
Either you are part of the problem or part of the solution.Pointing out the problems may be helpful but it is a long way from a solution.Just as any publicity is good publicity you can’t fight something like FI without making it stronger.Like water vs rock water always wins.The bottom up aproach is the only one that makes any sense in this light.
Roosh don’t bring a knife to a gunfight,and if you find yourself in a hole put down the shovel,if you can’t lead or follow get out of the road.
I appreciate your take on it, and I think you’re dead right in your assessment of the major players. But I disagree on it’s net effect. Roosh presents what looks to me like a very immature take on Red Pill truths. He looks at the same elephant that you and I do and see’s something completely different. And I think his presentation will resonate with an immature public that no longer understands the difference between reason and emotion. I think the most common mistake a man can make when trying to judge public perception is in assuming that everyone decides… Read more »
O/T question for the community. Where I live in Austin (near 6th street, heh) there are a lot of single moms I am bumping into (most quite upfront about it out the blocks). What is the community’s take on dating young single moms? I am now 39 and I am concerned that my age and social status (some recognize me from a show I appeared on on primetime TV a few years back, and I published a couple of books too) will immediately pigeonhole me as a provider. I have run cheeky jerkboy game on a couple, and while they… Read more »
I stopped reading RoK several months (a year? two?) ago. The posts used to be well thought-out ideas. Yea, there were a few inflammatory click-bait posts that might be there just to piss off feminists, but ‘lately’ I find it’s been less than intellectual and more angry, homophobic, and trollish. It’s due to the shitty editorial model of RoK, which is the same as that of bygone Manosphere sites such as the Spearhead and In Mala Fide: “Well, I want to have this awesome website and shit, with as many readers as possible. But, like, it’s not like I have… Read more »
Grrrrl power and open hypergamy
https://youtu.be/33MtR-g4Jcg
@LostInPlantation “I have run cheeky jerkboy game on a couple, and while they seem interested in me the underlying motivation still seems to be viewing me as a source of stability and resources.” You are pretty hosed. Dating at that level (in your age and theirs) requires a special cruelty and dispassionate approach that your single mom likely socialized out of you. The hardest thing about growing your mind to see the world in reality is the examination of ALL your relationships, and the mother/son bond takes the biggest hit. Generally, a self-aware man just feels sorry for his dad.… Read more »
[…] post was inspired by a comment by YaReally (a pickup artist who comments on Rollo Tomassi’s blog). Last Friday night I was dancing with […]
@Lost in Translation:
Given this: “I have no interest in pumping and dumping or spinning these ladies . . .”
Than this . . .
“I’m just bumping into a lot of them and wondering whether its worth the risk.”
. . . is a negatory.
Lost in Plantation got lost in translation. The brain is a funny thing sometimes. Sorry ’bout that.
@Lost In Translation: Obvious suggestion, go younger. I’m not famous but I’m a couple years younger than you and the younger they are the less likely they are to be interested in a provider.
Being famous is great..just disqualify yourself as a provider. Lots of stuff in YaReally’s archive about how to disqualify as a provider. But the older they are the harder it is to do
Although I have been following Roosh for at least 8 years, I must reluctantly agree with much of what you say. As other commenters have suggested, something went wrong once RoK started publishing poorly thought out essays. Reaxxion was another step in the wrong direction. When Roosh published his original piece on rape I took it as a thought experiment, not as a policy ready for legislation. As such it was acceptable, but it has become a ready weapon for SJWs to beat him over the head. Worse, governments seem to dislike him too. In some old post Roosh warned… Read more »
If men are genuinely looking for answers, they’ll find them. It’s their own responsibility. Some may stop at Roosh, others may go beyond. Not sure why you have a gripe about it.
Great post. I completely agree. I just don’t see Roosh doing anything productive. “the lack of acceptance of the latter (even if you don’t do it yourself) has been seen as residual blue pill by Red Pill communities. I remember discussing it with Andy a few weeks ago.” @IAS I personally still don’t think that having a moral value to not fuck married women is “blue pill” as everyone was saying… But, my views on it have changed slightly. I guess I finally accepted that our morals are (and should be) shaped by our experiences and personal value system. I… Read more »
“If men are genuinely looking for answers, they’ll find them.”
Answers are as think on the ground as leaves in the fall. Good ones are a bit harder to find.
I think ‘The Big Guy’ is being a little too hard on Roosh for not taking the High Road, especially since Roosh remains true to his self-described PUA role as a “performing monkey” designed to attract & hold the extremely short attention span of the distraction-seeking female. As for the crime of pandering to the MSM’s desire for a Disneyesque Manosphere Villain, Roosh is guilty-as-charged, insomuch as he plays the caddish bad boy with some (recently diminished) enthusiasm, with the intent of keeping his artificial badness fresh & marketable by always upping the outrage ante, coming off (more or less)… Read more »
@Andy I feel like an idiot for shaming people about it. You’re forgiven. We all knew we were right already. 😉 The reason your view bounced completely off me and a lot of other guys is that we’d already gone (in my case repeatedly and forcefully) through the thought process on both sides of the fence. I’d been where you were and where I am, and I much preferred where I am. No self shaming and no anger at the dudes who poached from me in the past. Reducing the anger in my life always seems to make it better.… Read more »
“The reason your view bounced completely off me”
@Sun
pfffft. lol. You were PISSED…
“Fuck the fatties, or fuck another guy’s chick. It’s a shit choice, but at some point every single guy faces it.”
lol, where are all these chicks under 30 getting married??? I live in a different part of the country, but I just don’t see it happening around here.
@Rollo – Your piece seems to want to tread a line where you don’t quite distance yourself from Roosh as much as you criticize him. It seems you’ve never quite grokked what a lowlife piece of shit Roosh is. I don’t care that he spouts Red Pill rhetoric, the rest is beyond the pale. And the “ironic” commentary he offered as a thought experiment about rape on private property was supposed to be suggestive, not just a thought experiment. He’s playing with angry men and violent ideas not just to promote himself but because he himself hates women in his… Read more »
@scrib, you’ll definitely want to listen in on Friday’s Livestream
Men in groups are needed now more than ever.
Men in groups are needed now more than ever. I agree. This is why Roosh’s tooling of not just SJWs but the men who presumed he was serious about meeting is so damaging. He doesn’t care about any pretense of Neomasculinity or Red Pill awareness and this is evident in his willingness to dupe men into being his Dancing Monkeys to serve his publicity. When we organized the Man In Demand conference, my first priority was to avoid EXACTLY this deliberate compromising of men’s identities and protecting their ‘bread’ so to speak. I told Christian I’d participate only if we… Read more »
What I don’t quite get is the cheering in the Neo-Masculinty gallery; “Dude, Roosh totally pwnd the press!”, it looks like wishful thinking. Six (6) individuals, one of them from the noted media engine of feminism Martha Stewart. That’s not exactly Amanda Marcotte or some bubble headed blonde from Fox. As kfg already wrote, Roosh has pretty poor speaking poise, Toastmasters or something similar would help – but wait, this is the Neo Masculinity guru guy, shouldn’t he have better public speaking skills than the mid level manager at the local Wal Mart? At best it looks like a draw.… Read more »
As much as I love to see Roosh take on the MSM, I think it’s pretty clear that Roosh’s plan is to turn himself into Julien Blanc and cash in on whatever martyr dollars there are to be had. I agree, he doesn’t really care about anybody but himself and he’ll happily put other men at risk for personal gain. It’s not about advancing issues so much as it is about growing his bank account. And even if Roosh was legitimately trying to change hearts and minds, he simply isn’t charismatic or skilled enough to pull it off. As somebody… Read more »
Well written as always. I have couple things to add. As a avid reader of RRR I appriciate what all of you are doing but the reality is that red pill is relatively small and is not getting attention/readership it deserves. Feminine Imperative is too strong and will silence any opposition as soon as it overgrows and represents real potential treat. Roosh is on his way to promote/expand red pill knowledge as much as he can and if he can cash in,why not. There are many betas who will after now finding about RoK,and by simple googling find that core… Read more »
Stefan Roosh is on his way to promote/expand red pill knowledge as much as he can and if he can cash in,why not. There are many betas who will after now finding about RoK,and by simple googling find that core is red pill and who the founding fathers arRRR. Here is the problem with your line of thought: the way most men will find out about Roosh now is via a search that turns up something like PRO-RAPE GUY. Blue pill men have a visceral reaction to the concept of rape, and are ready to string up any man even… Read more »
@Andy
You just wish I was. It’s alright, you can still love yourself in spite of that fact.
@Anonymous Reader
“Here is the problem with your line of thought: the way most men will find out about Roosh now is via a search that turns up something like PRO-RAPE GUY. ”
You’re going to be associated with rape either way.
@ Rollo “I honestly don’t care if Roosh has decided he wants to play the same game as Cernovich or Milo; my concern is for the men who become the collateral damage of his character reinvention.” At this point that is really all that matters, because when ordinary men get doxxed or have their lives ruined they won’t be able to profit off of the notoriety or hold a press conference to explain themselves. Being under 30 and in media myself, I have little to say about this whole blowup except to point out that the conduct goes against everything… Read more »
This is why men need their own tribe:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/44qqum/25_million_men_have_no_close_friends_lets/
I should also add that the whole ‘tribe’ concept was first considered by Jack Donovan in The Way of Men.
Yeah, that homosexual Jack Donovan who would be explicitly excluded from Roosh’s Neomasculine ‘tribal’ meet ups.
Milo on the other hand; he’s happy to have dinner with a homosexual so long as he has the kind of media reach Milo’s got.
https://twitter.com/Nero/status/617015848100855808
‘Four legs good, two legs,…better’
Maybe Roosh could come up with his own line of Neo Masculinist emoji?
Why should Monica Lewinsky own that space?
http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2016/02/08/monica-lewinsky-launches-anti-bullying-emoji-keyboard/
@Rollo: I’m not sure Roosh’s antics can add to the damage a man incurs from the FI embedded in the public and private spheres. Those who seek will find; those who do not seek cannot see.
“Those who seek will find; those who do not seek cannot see.”
And that, I’m afraid, is the answer to, “Why didn’t someone tell me?”
It all depends on the first 3 Google returns viewed by those who seek.
Roosh is now the Alex Jones of the manosphere. Just like Alex Jones, Roosh has taken the concerns and ideas of legitimate researchers and journalists before him, and perverted them for his own profit. And now just like Jones, he’s fuckin clown. He’s the caricature of the manoshpere boogey man the establishment media wants, so they can push everyone in the sphere under the same nutjob umbrella.
Funny, my first though on seeing the ‘concern’ concept here was ‘troll.’ Yes, personal responsibility. Not all are as reluctant to be a messiah as Mr. Shimoda.
Rollo, if you wanted to prod your readers – around the world – into meeting each other, how would you do it? Or would you not prod them, and instead let them meet organically or at conferences? Also, suppose the Man in Demand conference had been compromised, despite all efforts to the contrary. What would you have done differently from Roosh, aside from apparently not engaging the media? By the way, I attended the RoK Warsaw meetup. No protests there. Also, on the Roosh V Forum, at a glance, it seems that the ones that were held, and that were… Read more »
The whole Roosh thing reminds me of NWA. In real life they were just young guys from shitty neighborhoods who had few prospects, not ruthless gangbanging super villains and killers with endless rap sheets. The only member of the group that sold drugs was Eazy E, and he was just a low level dealer, probably on par with that guy you knew who sold weed in college. I believe Ice Cube went to some technical college. Really listen to the over-the-top lyrics, especially on their second and last album. They were going for broke, doing and saying anything they could… Read more »
@ Rollo What’s further ironic about it is you would never know that about Donovan, whereas Milo is…how did you describe him? – “A cheeky Brit with fabulously gay bleached hair.” Subtlety is not something he’s skilled at. Further irony is that Donovan clearly has his own tribe, and while someone might think they’re expertly LARPing, only a fool would say so to their face. https://www.instagram.com/p/8cbtGNAKKA/?taken-by=starttheworld I checked out the reddit thing and this struck a nerve: “Men seem to think there is something unmasculine about male friendships.” This is absolutely true, and it’s toxic. Years ago I was watching… Read more »
Excuse me, but you cannot build any “tribe” in a modernized, atomized, liberal society, much less a tribe of men. Tribes are bonded by blood and a shared destiny. Once they disappear, they don’t come back. Trying to build a tribe is a the purest form of LARPing.
” It’s alright, you can still love yourself in spite of that fact.”
Checking my webcam… Mmmmm. Does anyone else start singing Uptown Funk when they look at themselves?
@scribb “@Rollo – Your piece seems to want to tread a line where you don’t quite distance yourself from Roosh as much as you criticize him. It seems you’ve never quite grokked what a lowlife piece of shit Roosh is.” Unlike you and me, Rollo’s name is out there. He should tread carefully lest be be slapped with a defamation suit. Roosh is dying out like the flickering flame of a candle. Going after him no holds barred will just breath life into it. “Roosh is now the Alex Jones of the manosphere.” Nope, Alex Jones is twisting and profiting… Read more »
@Rollo
I know you don’t generally do politics Rollo, but the previous “The War Brides of Europe” inadvertently made for a great opportunity to introduce a few blue pill buddies to your writing. With some really encouraging feed back.
More of the same please.
Oh, and if we can keep the Roosh saga out of the comments, even better.
Rollo, I enjoy your writing and have given away many of your books to friends and acquaintances who needed and benefitted from it. Indeed, your books on my bed stand have provided more than one occasion for some great post-coital discussions when the women I have over picks them up to browse. I have to tell you that I’m really disappointed to see you call Roosh out in the manner that you have. This is one of the few (perhaps only) posts I have ever read of yours that really does not add to the discussion. Frankly it reads as… Read more »
Am I gas lighting when I say Athol Kay’s MMSL primer was a great book that I fully endorsed, but now he’s sold all of that out in allowing women/wives run his show? Am I gas lighting when I point out that Mark Manson and Evan Mark Katz are marketing watered down Purple Pill ideals primarily to post-Wall professional spinsters for their revenue? Am I gas lighting when I detail how Tucker Max suffers from the same financial necessity to rebrand himself – going so far as to blank out his face and leave his wife’s on the cover of… Read more »
@Scribb, I’ve got much respect for you, but you insinuating Rollo is somehow a closet racist is beyond the pale. And then you threaten to walk away from his site if he doesn’t somehow come cleaner? Dude, that’s straight-up SJW shaming behavior. So what you have ONE black relative through marriage. Type in your zip code into a demographics site and it’s probably whiter than computer paper, dude. Now, I grew up with 75% non-white, LOW INCOME friends my whole life. Black culture and life experiences are infused in my blood. Should I tell you how sheltered and racist you… Read more »
“I’m really disappointed to see you call Roosh out in the manner that you have.”
“C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre. C’est de la folie.”
@Rollo – I’m working from home on Friday so I’ll tune in if I can. But let’s be clear: There is a version of ‘Red Pill’ out there which claims anarchy, race realism and a return to ‘traditional values’ in which women are subjugated is demanded by being Red Pill. I say that isn’t so. What say you? Race Realism – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no? Anarchy – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no? Treating women like second class citizens and spraying hate at them collectively, non-stop (Roosh’s properties all do this) – Part of… Read more »
Roosh’s biggest issue is the lack of positive energy coming from him these days. It’s made him kind of irrelevant to me for a while. Watching his nuclear meltdown from the sidelines might be kind of amusing, but honestly aside from saying “No, he’s not a rape advocate. He’s just an idiot” I really can’t concern myself with his fate. I know what he’s doing is annoying, stupid, and yes some people will get hurt. It’s made a lot worse if we keep giving him attention. That attention gets more eyeballs, more money, and more pull to drag more suckers… Read more »
@Shiva “Nope, Alex Jones is twisting and profiting from his endeavor but he is not burning down his cause/sphere. He is really a good one stop all non MSM info, but you got to use your brains.” Well, that all depends on how you look at it. If your intention is NOT to burn down your cause, you DON’T constantly made idiotic predictions that don’t come true, you DON’T howl and scream at and disrespect guests on your own program, and you DON’T go onto major network programs and froth at the mouth like a fucking moron. I’ve known about… Read more »
@LostinThePlantation No, not worth the risk. Avoiding the single moms as a rule first entered my blue-pill brain probably well over 10 years ago, thanks to Tom Leykis. Even though, at the time, I thought him to be overly harsh regarding this policy I could still feel that something was right about it. Through the blue pill lens I was overly focused on this policy as a function of how it *seemed* critical, unfairly judgmental, and overly dismissive of single mothers. The blue pill assures that the point of origin is always the woman. Even with a critical, careful eye… Read more »
@scribblerg dude, although not an atheist, I agree with your views on the Red Pill being distinct from all the negative stuff you mentioned above (that dilution is a big part of the reason why several of us moved here from CH following YaReally a little while ago). That said, I think it is important to note that even if I disagree with someone’s views on a subject like “race realism” (as I did with CH), that doesn’t take away from the validity of their views on other subjects (such as the core red pill). My problem with CH was… Read more »
@Razorwire – agreed. Have you considered actively disqual from providership by saying you’re married, or have a girlfriend or whatever? I’m a bit younger than you (36) and this is a real issue – not just single mothers but also a lot of 35-40 year olds whose bio clock is ticking like a bomb and who are ready to settle down and pop babies any moment.
I’m thinking about experimenting with wearing a fake wedding ring and trying to pickup. Not even actively mentioning a wife, unless asked.
Was Roosh’s press conference as bad as his critics describe? No, but he managed to survive it. I rather divided about this latest episode from Roosh. On one hand I suspect this meet-up and the reaction to it blew up in his face to something he didn’t expect and I think he responded adequately, more or less. On the other hand it does fit a pattern when one examines his willingness to promote himself on these Oprah-style daily tv shows where women get their inner virago on. The appearance on Dr. Oz was cringeworthy. Roosh’s appearances on the Ukrainian and… Read more »
@Culum I’m a bit younger than you (36) and this is a real issue – not just single mothers but also a lot of 35-40 year olds whose bio clock is ticking like a bomb and who are ready to settle down and pop babies any moment. This is a big part of why I avoid that demographic. They’re less physically attractive than their younger counterparts, more likely to provider pigeonhole you, more likely to be single moms already, and more likely to establish frame by saying they don’t fuck on the first date straight out of the gate. So… Read more »
Women are subjugated is demanded by being Red Pill. I say that isn’t so. What say you? Subjugation is a relative term. If I say women respond to conventional masculine dominance as part of evolved psychological firmware in women here on this blog, we all understand what I’m getting into, but every women’s studies major who reads that presumes I’m advocating hostile subjugation of women. Just look what happened when I dropped a single comment about Christian men employing Dread with their wives on BGR. That said, no, subjugation in my estimate implies an exercise of control that’s rooted in… Read more »
Rollo has a gift for pattern recognition viz-a-viz human behaviour that is likely at the very extreme right of the curve. He writes essay after essay, expounding on issue upon issue. We all benefit from it. Further, like attracts like. Hence, Yareally is here. Awesome! It’s free. Awesomissimo!! I don’t care what his take is on economic theory, bigfoot, fluoride, ufos, israel-palestinian issues, 9/11, jfk or boxers v briefs. It never occurred to me to ask. I used to read ROK but it degenerated imho. CH as well. I’m happy that this space exists and I get to hear othet… Read more »
Scribblerg
Direct questions and they deserve direct answers. Please do so I can know who I’m making common cause with.
Perhaps you could take all those issues up in detail on your own blog?
The plight of the beta
http://youtu.be/_z_SptbwMu4
@scribblerg You need to make a distinction between the “red pill” and the alt-right. The “red pill” is biologic realism. In the sexual realm, female hypergamy is one of the main concepts but there are others. In the socio-economic realm, its racial hereditarianism and the biological differences that exist between the races; essentially “human bio-diversity”. This is the continuing exploration of human nature assisted by post 1970s scientific research made easily assessable by the internet. “PUA” comes out of this. Now the alt-right, which is what you are referring to, is a far right reaction to the Left and the… Read more »
@Rollo – The hate/misogyny issue is one of judgment and I’ve exercised mine wrt Roosh and his crowd, he goes well beyond what is understandable anger and frustration into deep hate and denigration. Frequently, and excludes all who object from commenting – he’s built a cesspool. As well, you are correct, I felt I did know the answers but wanted you to explicate just so the race realists coming over here, and the truly vile haters, can be clear this isn’t Return of Kings redux or CH2. Many of us are here because you aren’t a racist, women hating asshole.… Read more »
@Rollo, As a longtime reader and someone whose purchased the Rationale Male, I’m a bit disappointed with your takedown of Roosh. I will say that he’s done things in the past which I’ve disagreed with and been disappointed by, and I think healthy disagreement is necessary sometimes. However, I think you’re misrepresenting the situation, and it comes off as unwarranted antagonism. While not as explicitly, you’re painting him with the same mischaracterization as the ‘bloggers’ you lament. He was organizing an informal and innocuous meetup for like-minded men to get together and grab a beer. As far as I can… Read more »
10×10 ” I’m very libertarian and do not like the solutions that the alt-right provides. But, I do find a lot of value in their commentary as they understand racial and sexual dynamics better than everyone else out there. They don’t understand economics and they almost always end up as pro-white, pro-(moderate) socialist nationalists, and I dislike that. But they understand the evil of the Left and the cowardice of the Conservatives. ” *sigh* I shouldn’t comment….. but what the hell. You made a mistake in stating that ” they ” ( CH especially ) understand racial dynamics. That’s what… Read more »
” If you go down the path of biologic realism you can not have sex realism without race realism. If there is pre-installed hardware that effects human behavior then its effects are both at the racial and sexual levels. You can’t ignore one because you want to be less controversial. Black and brown skinned people are more r-selected in their sexual reproductive strategies. They also have lower IQs. These things have consequences.”
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/61178286.jpg
You’re entitled to your beliefs.
I’d appreciate it, as a Black and/or Brown person if you’d take this shit to CH’s comment section.
Try not to forget that Roissy has been CH for years now because of the dust up between him an Lady Raine back in 09
@Anonymous Reader “Blue pill men have a visceral reaction to the concept of rape, and are ready to string up any man even accused of rape. So they won’t be led to the red pill, they’ll reject it because of the association with raype. ” “when a blue pill man contemplates the word “rape” he envisions the object of his oneitis being attacked by a savage” For an example of this visceral reaction, see scribblerg’s comments about Roosh’s legalize rape THOUGHT EXPERIMENT lol holy shit. @scribblerg Time to take a chill pill yo. I can’t believe I have to defend… Read more »
@Guy
Nice try, Roosh! lol
” Try not to forget that Roissy has been CH for years now because of the dust up between him an Lady Raine back in 09″ I vaguely remember that she semi-doxxed him. I mean, it’s funny, some of the stuff he says and I’m not great advocate of political correctness by any stretch, but he is really angry about it and it seems to cloud his judgment, if he ever really had any. I just stay away mostly. I get annoyed when that CH sentiment creeps into wherever I happen to be. Always catches me by surprise. I’ve been… Read more »
aww I thought the asterixes would bold shit. I DON’T UNDERSTAND WORDPRESS AT ALL.
Wassup with all the ” old man ” hate Ya? Lol.
@10×10 Mr. Deist argues that “identity politics is at the heart of the socialist left,” but if you look at the split between Sanders and Clinton supporters, it’s pretty clear that the side most interested in identity politics is the Clinton side. Hence the “Bernie Bro” myth. Sanders’ support has less to do with identity politics and more to do with the fact that young people can’t start their lives in the “new economy” of disposable people. His support really has very little to do with identity politics and everything to do with the failure of neoliberal economic theory. The… Read more »
@Blaximus
It’s because I secretly hate old men and propose that they should be eaten to solve world hunger, the wrinkles will make them taste like large raisins. O NO WATCH OUT SCRIBBLERG IS GONNA GET ME FOR PROPOSING LEGAL CHANGES THAT MAKE OLD MEN CANNIBALISM LEGALIZED!!!11 MY SOUL IS DARK AND EVIL!!
lol
Try not to forget that Roissy has been CH for years now because of the dust up between him an Lady Raine back in 09 Indeed. I think it’s interesting that, among the main manosphere bloggers, Rollo is the one who has maintained more of a level stance vis-a-vis most of the rest of the main bloggers, until Roosh of course became more of a self-promoter than anything else. Roissy has been writing his socially edgy stuff for a long, long time — at least as early as 2007-2008, back in the heyday of the old Chateau — and the… Read more »
@Sun @Culum I know there’s guys that swear it’s a fun exercise, but it seems like a way to label yourself “provider” by virtue of obviously doing so for another woman already. Then again, it’s also obvious social proof (“Somebody married him so he must be worth something”) so I’m not really sure how it works out on balance. As a married guy, I can tell you wearing a ring is a net neutral. It really doesn’t have that much impact in either direction pro or con…. 50% of girls never even mention it, 25% mention it only because they… Read more »
@yareally: I re-read ‘Guy’. Nice catch. I like that this blog focuses on hypergamy, male reality, awareness and strategy. I agree with blax. I’m all for free speech and expression but ‘race realism’ is a topic for CH not TRM. In the same vein, no one comes here to debate the merits of bass lures 🙂 In the free exchange of ideas no one gets to control the overall dialogue. I wish the red pill/internet manospere was free of opportunism but I dont get to decide that. I just hope more guys tune in and change their lives. That’s probably… Read more »
@whoever was in Austin running into single mothers: don’t. Just. don’t. A couple of years back I was in a contract enviro and a pretty cute under 25 kept ladeling IOI’s on me. Classic stuff, like sitting across a meeting table from me playing with her hair with one hand while drawing circles near my arm with the other. She didn’t escalate beyond a little kino, but it was there…and as I said, she was cute and under 25. I said, hmm, daddy issues? (I was working on self improvement at that time, and maybe had made more progress than… Read more »
@ bob bitchin ” I like that this blog focuses on hypergamy, male reality, awareness and strategy. I agree with blax. I’m all for free speech and expression but ‘race realism’ is a topic for CH not TRM. In the same vein, no one comes here to debate the merits of bass lures 🙂 In the free exchange of ideas no one gets to control the overall dialogue. I wish the red pill/internet manospere was free of opportunism but I dont get to decide that. I just hope more guys tune in and change their lives. That’s probably the best… Read more »
” . . . it seems like a way to label yourself “provider” . . .” Being married labels you as “safe.” @10×10: “They don’t understand economics and they almost always end up as pro-white, pro-(moderate) socialist nationalists, and I dislike that.” And then there’s Vox Day, a libertarian with a degree in economics who may have improved upon the Austrian model and, rather interesting, a non-spiritual Christian. He’s pro ethnic cohesion, under which pro white is just a subcategory. He is not, as the left likes to say, a white supremacist, although fitting into the race realist camp would… Read more »
@YaReally
Use the HTML “strong” tag for bold and “em” for italics. Remember to close your tags.
@kfg
I suspect Guy is paying attention to Roosh’s words and completely missing his actions. It ain’t just women you should do that with, gentlemen. Men have subcomms too, particularly when playing the game Roosh is playing.
…but hey, what do I know, I’m just a MGTOW who’s trying to keep you all down, didn’t you know?
https://xsplat.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/why-rollos-therationalmale-com-is-an-mgtow-site-that-is-trying-to-keep-you-down/
@Culum I’ve thought of many ways to shed the provider vibe but for me it always comes down acknowledging that most of the problem is about how I view myself, which is really a matter of authentic, intrinsic confidence. So I’ve tried to focus on that instead of adding another layer. In my experience the GF or wedding ring game is just adopting another layer of identity or buffer that demands attention (maintenance) that takes energy away from just digging deeper into my convictions and desires. Though I have never tried it so this is a bit of conjecture on… Read more »
@Rollo
Write a bang guide if you want real cred, bro. Because I know you’re all about proving who you are to some random internet jackass.
@ Rollo ” February 9th, 2016 at 3:16 pm …but hey, what do I know, I’m just a MGTOW who’s trying to keep you all down, didn’t you know? https://xsplat.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/why-rollos-therationalmale-com-is-an-mgtow-site-that-is-trying-to-keep-you-down/ ” LMFAO. I tried to read this post but It appears someone is really upset because they can’t follow written thought unless it is at 5th grade reading level. MGTOW??? LMAO..again. ” We all get older, and sooner or later that means we all decline in physical attractiveness. But men can still increase their romantic and sexual options into their forties, fifties, and sixties. Maybe even their seventies. Maybe more.… Read more »
Writes post about Hypergamy/Game:
“Waaagh Rollo only writes about hating women, cruel determinism and the world being cold, harsh and nihilistic. Where’s the hope and optimism?”
Writes post about retaining the positive aspects of idealsm in a Red Pill reality:
“Fuck you Rollo! What’s this blue pill bullshit? Idealism is a death sentence and you’re not shooting guys the real ugly negative deal. Write about the reality of Hypergamy, waaaghhh.”
*shrug*
“If a blog is not ABOUT all the ways a man can self improve, then it is a blog ABOUT stagnation, resignation, and fail.”
[keanureeves]Whoa![/keanureeves]
That’s a great point about the whole 6 weeks in advance thing… *sigh*. I have a close friend, single, late twenties, super cute — she was very red pill sympathetic. (I introduced her to it). She read you sometimes, Dalrock sometimes, sometimes Return of Kings even though it made her panicky and sad a lot of the time — This whole thing made her shut down. She texted me and said, “Will you still be my friend if I’m not Red Pill?” (Because she’s that adorable and feminine). That sucks. Because I think the Red Pill has a ton to… Read more »
@Blaximus: bang on Censorship is stifling but there’s also a time and place for things. I sometimes get off topic so I’m sure I’m guilty too.I guess my bottom lines are: decorum (why hide behind a keyboard and play mind-games, don’t we get enough of that from women?), common purpose ( we’re all men so let”s work together) and common sense (religion and politics tend to inflame so why get divisive?). We get enough divide et impere from the MSM so why would we want it here? This is a really great blog and I continue to be amazed at… Read more »
Hey ROLLO much thanks for the ladder up and I still don’t see the top.
@Blaximus: just to be clear, I didn’t think you were censoring that race realism guy. You expressed your opinion of his opinion. All good. I tend to see CH as the place for that kind of discussion (too bad roissy went off on a tangent he’s a good writer). I prefer reality realism to race realism.
I enjoy what you bring to the table and I can be vague and indirect. I don’t want you to get the wrong idea. I’m just anothet guy trying to figure things out and this forum and the people here have really helped.
@yareally You need to put your bifocals back on if you even think that was close to Roosh’ style of writing.
@Divided Line His support really has very little to do with identity politics and everything to do with the failure of neoliberal economic theory. Translation: Young people want free shit. And “neo-liberal economic theory” is a bullshit term for the welfare state version of socialism that we have. I agree about the Clinton supporters being more anti-white, anti-male, (which is really what “identity politics” means). But in the end ALL leftists are egalitarians. Proletariate Left vs Buguois Left doesn’t really mean anything any more. The Leftist elite HATE the white lower class. But the point of the video was to… Read more »
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