Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Dutchman In regards to one-itis, you can show indifference to her as you should, but you still need to develop your own mindset to not have one-itis. To do this, some of us have been going on about Marc Lewis’ Biology of Desire and the way to pave in the rut you are in (the rut of one-itis). Rollo calls one-itis a psychological disease (I think) but you can easily call it a habit or an addiction. And as I discussed one way to overcome this is with other dopamine inputs as a work-around. You need to employ these other… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

“Exhibit alpha behavior without having one-itis. Otherwise you look like an incongruent ass hole. Be an alpha self-improved man. Not your old self in an ass hole costume.”

Good shit. I hadn’t even thought about it in those terms.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Dutchman I’m definitely having to fight the oneitis. My brain is so used to it. That’s an extinction burst going on, right there. You have the one-itis neural pathways going back for years, right? You must consciously, deliberately, reroute that. The pathway won’t go away, but you need to redirect it. Lots of good advice on how to do that, and let me add this: just open girls. Just talk with women in coffee shops, find something out about them that is interesting and tell them “Oh, that’s interesting!”. Run approach and interact. In doing this you will be showing… Read more »

J in Houston
J in Houston
5 years ago

Longtime reader of TRM here, Rollo. One of two absolute must read sites for me and the only ‘sphere-related site which I read every post and try to read all of the comments (FYI – the other is Instapundit). Your writing here has answered a lot of questions for me and dramatically impacted my outlook on not only my own interpersonal relationships but society in general. I can’t thank you enough for that. Now, let me remove the kneepads and get to the real reason for this comment: I would like to suggest that you display numbering on the comments.… Read more »

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

Here is my advice to Dutchman. Commence mockery or ridicule or whatever but I have to say it. If your wife is seriously having anxiety issues/hormone imbalances from what you’ve indicated I don’t think “amused mastery” or “gaming” whatever is going to help really. Dissecting this into infinitum “she said/he said” and so forth….every action/reaction, it’s not that material for a person with a chemical imbalance. This is my SERIOUS advice. I know it isn’t PC, and it isn’t sphere approved either. Just hold her. Pat her head, and tell her that everything is going to be alright. When she’s… Read more »

Yollo "Intractable" Comanche
Yollo "Intractable" Comanche
5 years ago

@Liz

Why don’t more women want men to know how to be useful in non-financial ways?

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@Liz

” That’s not a slam on her, I get that way too and when I do, when I have anxiety issues, or panic attacks, that is what my husband does. He holds me close, pats my head, and tells me it will be alright.”

let me take a wild guess here Liz… You are totally wild about your husband no? He is your rock?

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“You are totally wild about your husband no? He is your rock?”

Yes!

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@ Liz

““You are totally wild about your husband no? He is your rock?”

Yes!”

dear girl, thank you for demonstrating why no one on a RP site should ever, ever listen to any female poster about anything.

Now go make that man a sammich… and toss in a BJ as well… 😉

Dutch’s wife can’t bear the thought of him at worst, or is indifferent to him at best…

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Bluepillprofessor January 26th, 2016 at 2:01 pm Love the pic for this article! I use the same pic for the cover of my book. It was very prescient of you to post “Ovulation & Dread” this week as it happens my long awaited magnum opus: “Saving a Low Sex Marriage: A Man’s Guide To Dread, Seduction, and the Long Game” will be available as early as Friday (January 29)!!! See this link to access the book when it is ready (and also for some ultra cool podcasts comprising a Married Red Pill entry level class in the style of the… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Of course, I didn’t get the code right in order to close the bold after: This is a MUST READ!

Here’s one for you Dutch:

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/44djow/response_to_askmrp_17year_oneitis_marriage_you/

Did you pick up Bluepillprofessor’s book yet?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

One of the annoyances, or pet peeves that I have is when certain individuals say that “I bought your book” to Rollo Tomassi or will to Bluepillprofessor. When with the price they put on the book is to get knowledge out to individuals to promote red pill and game. These two individuals are so obviously not doing it to make a buck. They are autonomously men of means and are trying to help you guys out. With their information. Secondly, this conversation thread upstream, obviously had something stuck in my craw, when HABD and Sentient started talking about the immediate… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“Writers with experience coaching and advising men in low sex marriages, have consistently written that it will take about 1 month of hard work and repair for each year that you have been in the low sex marriage. ”

Such as whom?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Sentient

I see what you did there.

Shit test.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@SJF from feb 8 at 6:18pm i wasn’t going to get into this bc i don’t really have time…but after reading this blue pill professor’s excerpt, it really could cause some problems for some men, so i’m getting sucked back in…lol…and i know you told me to not take it easy on you (bc you can take it) so i won’t…if that’s changed, you should probably just skip this whole comment…lol… so here goes…bc you really do need to understand this stuff if you are going to be giving advice to men trying to work out their marriage issues… (note… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Thanks for being such a crappy-style writer with poor narrative with great ideas. That makes me feel better (with my psychological projection I consider myself less than excellent at writing because of lack of skills development over decades). I would be (somewhat) elated if Dutch could turn it around fast. The faster the better. I most certainly don’t think it is possible to change it that fast. But my thinking that doesn’t take away from his potential. See, what the other mysterious “other writers” had is some feedback on forums. Athol Kay obviously saw men alpha up in six months… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“I would be (somewhat) elated if Dutch could turn it around fast. The faster the better. I most certainly don’t think it is possible to change it that fast.” “she’s not going to all the sudden give it up precisely because she can’t trust and doesn’t think the new alpha red pill is congruent or lasting.” @SJF When you say this it’s just hard to believe that you’re as far along as you think you are. It IS possible. I don’t care how bad it was. I mean, I don’t know how LIKELY it is to happen in two weeks…… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

If I’m not mistaken, I think the point HABD (and Andy) are trying to make is that it is important to understand the real dynamics at play here, and that it is *structurally* possible to turn things around in two weeks or whatever. In *practice* it will take 99% of men a lot longer (and in fact I think it took both HABD and Sentient quite a while from reading their posts), but that’s a question of each man’s starting point, dedication and speed of skill acquisition. It is NOT because the *wife* needs to be “eased into it” or… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“In *practice* it will take 99% of men a lot longer (and in fact I think it took both HABD and Sentient quite a while from reading their posts), but that’s a question of each man’s starting point, dedication and speed of skill acquisition.” The practice of the practice WILL take longer if people are out there saying it should take longer though… that is the issue. Not HOW long it takes, but how long a guy allows himself to expect it to take. This book is actively advocating that it WILL/MUST take time. When that entire premise is just… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“It is NOT because the *wife* needs to be “eased into it” or whatever. ”

You gotta be shitting me. It is because the wife needs to be eased into or she’ll walk away with cash and prizes. And your dead bedroom.

She needs to ease into it and he needs to develop mastery that he never had.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“or she’ll walk away with cash and prizes. ”

this undercurrent of fear is subcommunicated… fuck her “cash & prizes” that in and of itself is BP/FI mentality.

I started my reset with the simple declaration that we would undoubtedly get divorced, given the path we were on (having spent a week reading Vox CH and AK). Best thing I ever did, in retrospect.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

Might as well update here… I’ve been fucking up a bit. Last week I was ignoring her for a few days after some dumb shit and when I got home on Friday, she kept engaging me. I backturned her several times and actually told her calmly that I was considering divorce if certain dramatic behaviors continued (don’t want to reveal too much). But then I just got tired of my burden of performance the next day and wanted to fucking relax so I was far more comforting and chose words that I figured would not prompt more shit testing. I’ve… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@SJF I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it before or not but I DID have mastery with her in the beginning. She basically worshipped the group I walked on when we first got together. I just slowly let myself be betaized and developed oneitis for her (because I was enjoying the comfort stuff/getting older). Rollo wrote about this here: http://therationalmale.com/2015/06/03/you-never-forget-your-first/ “It’s not that she’d settled for what she thought was a Beta in her early twenties, it’s that he was what she thought was Alpha then, but learned later that he wasn’t. This is the risk inherent to Hypergamy –… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Dutch “@HABD, Sentient: How long did it take you to turn things around?” It took about 8 months to get to the increase in sex life I wanted (and really the first month showed shocking improvement, which was ceded away in naivete), and another year to realize that there is no end… no “finish line”. LOL Once you understand the matrix, it’s much worse in many ways because you SEE there will never be an end. There will always be hypergamy running it’s sub routine, always be the TRUTH of emotion validating her feelings… And then once you get to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it before or not but I DID have mastery with her in the beginning. ” Same here… total hand at a peak alpha phase in my life… her words in “awe of me” couldn’t believe “I liked her”, had “never done that before” (lol) was “falling in love with” me… and before our wedding wrote me a long note that the sight of me makes her tremble and the thought of me committing to her made her weak… she was blissfully happy. So ya… all well, all well. And I felt the same, thought… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Dutchman “@HABD, Sentient: How long did it take you to turn things around?” for me, from the time i first read CH/TRM/early MMSL (following a google search…) to having my first successful interaction with hb8 (and hb7) (both about 19yo…lol) (where i KNEW i could have taken her home…and all the predictions that i made regarding the interaction were right on the money…and i could even see the hamster spinning…lol) ‘in the wild’ (in front of my wife = dread…lol…) was about 10-11 months…but, i was already comfortable with flirting with hot girls at that point…so, maybe 6 months… (although… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@SJF that annoyance that you feel (which comes through in your writing loud and clear) is the ‘delta’ on your cognitive dissonance…and my pushing on you is causing that push-back…that’s ok…i wouldn’t push on you, if i didn’t think it were possible for you to get a benefit… i actually just want the best for you…which is why i’m pushing your comfort zone around a little bit…lol… “I most certainly don’t think it is possible to change it that fast. ” why not? serious question, bc it gets to the heart of my thought exercise…girls are reactive…they ping off their… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

You guys are fucking killing me. We are all on the same side of this equation. All seeking the same goal as married men. @Andy “@SJF When you say this it’s just hard to believe that you’re as far along as you think you are. It IS possible. I don’t care how bad it was. I mean, I don’t know how LIKELY it is to happen in two weeks… but it’s important for everyone (including yourself) to understand that it IS possible.” Wtf are you talking about. When did I ever say it is not possible (I did indeed proscribe… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“of course i would endorse it in that situ…i will NEVER diss anything that allows a man to make accurate predictions and better his life…BUT this is NOT ‘low downside/high upside’…it’s just the opposite…like current MMSL…that’s why women buy that stuff (and allow their husbands to participate…lol)…bc it’s in THEIR best interests…not the best interests of their husbands…for a variety of reasons…” It is not like the current MMSL at all. It is good. (you are making shit up, not having read the book. It has only been out for about 12 days. I’m sure you will hear more about… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Dutchman But then I just got tired of my burden of performance the next day and wanted to fucking relax so I was far more comforting and chose words that I figured would not prompt more shit testing. I’ve been really busy at work this week so I haven’t really been reading or thinking about this stuff too much. How much do you exercise, and what kind of exercise do you get? When feeling tired of burden of performance, if possible get away from her. Go drink a coffee. If you have a hobby out of the house, do that.… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I think if we try hard enough, propelled by the Dutchman’s dilemma, we can get this essay to the 1000 comments quota. That is a lot of comments. Dutch if you want easy, translate this old CH essay into your married man game. Single man game into married man game. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/the-easiest-way-to-revive-a-flagging-relationship/ “When a woman pulls back, a typical man’s instinct will be to try and fix his flagging relationship. Men do; that’s how we’re designed. Unfortunately, more often than not this male instinct to action will drive the nails into the coffin of his dying relationship. Most men overreact, either… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“But then I just got tired of my burden of performance the next day and wanted to fucking relax so I was far more comforting and chose words that I figured would not prompt more shit testing. I’ve been really busy at work this week so I haven’t really been reading or thinking about this stuff too much.”

That’s your best Cypher imitation? Good luck with that.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Wtf are you talking about.”

What HABD said.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

“How much do you exercise, and what kind of exercise do you get? When feeling tired of burden of performance, if possible get away from her. Go drink a coffee. If you have a hobby out of the house, do that. Got any male friends? Go to see them. But get out of her zone, because otherwise you slip backwards. I ask about exercise, because we all need it, and paradoxically we often need it the most when “tired”. Instead of having a beer, have a set of pushups” I used to exercise often, now I don’t exercise at all.… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“This is just “ditch the omega for beta.” No, I want to ditch the beta and omega for alpha.”

NICE…

““Would it kill you to go visit a local bar and read a book?”
I know I need to do this.”

I have the same problem. If I have the excuse that I’m going with someone else I have no problem just leaving and hitting the bar. But if I’m by myself… I can’t bring myself to do it. Some major FI programmed guilt thing. I wouldn’t read a book though.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@Andy

“But if I’m by myself… I can’t bring myself to do it. Some major FI programmed guilt thing. ”

Yup, that’s me, exactly.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Andy: “… I can’t bring myself to do it. Some major FI programmed guilt thing. I wouldn’t read a book though.”

That’s going to make it harder to read a book that deals with the issue. Like this one:

http://terebess.hu/english/AlanWatts-On%20The%20Taboo%20Against%20Knowing%20Who%20You%20Are.pdf

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Would it kill you to go lift weights?” Yes, fuck that lol. “Would it kill you to go visit a local bar and read a book?” I know I need to do this. Perhaps you should read The Way of Men and realize the importance of masculine tactical virtues and their surrogates in a modern current society. Strength is one of them. And no one can accurately judge intellectual strength. Physical strength can be judged. (esp. when your wife is fucking you in your alpha mindset). I don’t think I have too many omega behaviors. I drink but so what?… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . masculine tactical virtues . . . Strength is one of them.”

It’s also useful, and weakness is not a virtue.

“Nothing wrong with drinking in my book.”

Temperance is a feminine imperative initiative. The word is also, as is to be expected from a feminine imperative initiative, a lie. They really mean prohibition.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Dutchman I used to exercise often, now I don’t exercise at all. I have no desire to, either. I’m not insecure about my looks, so I don’t see the benefit. I’ve never found that I get ANY kind of boost from it. Well, ok, just remember that exercise, even 30 min. walk, boosts up your immune system and reduces stress. Lifting with proper technique will up your testosterone. These are all good things, especially for a man who’s slipped into betatude…more T would be a good thing, for example. I couldn’t agree more with YaReally that if you don’t actually… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

“Nothing wrong with drinking in my book.” It’s not what you are doing per se, but why are you doing it. For example, a man who drinks with his meal, or after a meal, as a conscious part of the evening is in a mental state of “this is part of the evening, I don’t need it but I like it”. A man who puts away several ounces of alcohol late in the evening to damp down his anger and other bad feelings before going to bed is not in a good mental state, to point out another example. Plus… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@SJF “I’m advocating for practical realism. Sure her hind brain can be DTF after two weeks, but her limbic mid-brain ain’t going to feel good about it, and her fore-brain is going to want to cock-block, have LMR and ASD. Women have been know to engage their fore-brains on occasions. Especially when their are children involved, when their are monetary assets (and alimony and child support payments), when there is social media, television, social conventions, when the wife has already constructed a narrative on how you are a disgusting asshole and has carefully constructed half or more of her exit… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

“Perhaps you should read The Way of Men and realize the importance of masculine tactical virtues and their surrogates in a modern current society. Strength is one of them. And no one can accurately judge intellectual strength. Physical strength can be judged. (esp. when your wife is fucking you in your alpha mindset).”

Forgot this part. I do have a TON of classically masculine interests and hobbies. Weightlifting just isn’t one of them lol.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“I appreciate your comments, I’m just not always going to agree with you.”

Excellent. Then we have a deal.

Hit up Forge with an email.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

As I mentioned earlier, she has YEARS of experience seeing me as alpha, so it won’t be as great of a shock to her system as if she married me as a nice boring beta provider in her epiphany phase. It would be more like “oh fuck the old Dutchman is back!” It wouldn’t be the new me, it would be the old me. Gives you a tremendous advantage. A lot of men don’t have that, and thus find it easier to break up the old and start a new relationship, with all the various damage / expense involved. So… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

She’s actually been texting me a lot today asking for guidance on how to handle some situation and LOOKING for leadership and following my advice. Pretty cool.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@Dutchman

“She’s actually been texting me a lot today asking for guidance on how to handle some situation and LOOKING for leadership and following my advice. Pretty cool.”

There you go. and you know why this is right? because she tested your alpha and found it worthy, so she can trust your leading more.

Just don’t be surprised if she changes her mind after you tell her what to do… LOL More tests!

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Pretty cool indeed. Rollo wrote about the power of Take Away here: http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/23/relationship-game-wife-sex/ The power of the ‘takeaway’ In one form or another PUAs use the takeaway to shape desired behavior. This is behavioral psychology 101, reinforce the behaviors you want and punish the ones you don’t, all the time remembering that too much reward leads to satiation and cessation of the desired behavior. Don’t buy your wife flowers in order to get her to fuck you, buy them AFTER she’s performed accordingly and to your satisfaction. So many married men I know (even in their 60s ) still attempt… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Also Dutch, the next time you go to a bar during the evening on a workday to drink club soda by yourself after weightlifting, (re)read these on your laptop:

http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/09/relationship-game-a-primer/

http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

lol

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“lol”

Shit test successfully passed.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Shit test successfully passed.”

comment image

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, Dutch,

So, just had an ex call me and say she wanted my sperm to have another child with since her and her husband are splitting and she wants another kid before her window closes. I asked her how the collection procedure would work. She said I could have sex with her.

Would you consider that a dread prospect for my wife? lol.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

LOLOLOLOLOL

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@SJF “You want me to quote the entire book?” if you want to, i’ll probably end up reading it…lol…but based on what i’ve seen so far, it’s a basic overview of red pill concepts that doesn’t quite make it past purple pill clarity. this would actually be a good start for guys that are not ready to jump in with both feet, and need to dip in their toes first…bc a beginning overview might be all they are ready for… and ANYTHING that get guys moving in that red pill direction is good… (sometimes i forget that when i started… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Newly… well done sir, well done indeed. Please by all means post at least the audio of the convo when you tell your wife… LOL

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, well, I’ve had two great months of calmness and frame, but I beta-slid this week (hold up in a snow covered house for a few days with a micro-managing wife and bickering kids that made me lose my cool). So I had to admit I should not have raised my voice in front of the kids but that she needs to stop the micro-managing of pointless little shit that doesn’t matter. She had “the look” on her face that I know so well, the look that my concerns are baseless and ridiculous and she was about to walk away.… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

re bluepillprofessor links…never mind i found them…lol…

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Vox’s cat scheme involves how men relate to each other in a hierarchy and how their position within THAT structure informs their relationships with girls (who are not part of that structure)” Women think that they wear make up to look good for other women, which is true on the surface, but the surface truth is because women are, underneath that, competing with each other for men. “…but not drinking is still good for you…” Temperance is better for you, but if you can’t be temperate, it’s better to abstain. “also, i’m seeing something similar to burden of performance issues… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@newly “At that point, I decided to do a 180 and tell her about the secret tape of her saying she’d leave me if not for the kids. ” secret tape? I guess I missed this part of your story… “a necessary one to humble her high-horse a bit ” Perhaps introduce her to a snow shovel… LOL Things will be different when I’m a gone… “and instill some dread. She didn’t see that coming, and I basically told her, “Look, it probably isn’t gonna work between us, so let’s just try to be polite to each other until the… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, yeah put a recorder in her car during a girls’ day out and called her to do me a favor which we argued about. When she got off the phone, the recorder caught her saying if not for the kids, she’d live my fucking ass. These last two months have been awesome, so I wasn’t going to reveal anything about the tape. Wife is jealous as fuck of her. Built like a brick house. How would you go about such a nuke drop? My wife is stubborn as fuck though, so I could see her saying go ahead and… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

We’re over 900!!!!!

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@kfg

10 pages!!!…lol…

“Temperance is better for you, but if you can’t be temperate, it’s better to abstain.’

i agree with this…

i guess i was looking for some insight on the ‘burden of performance’ stuff…bc it really doesn’t make sense to me, but i can see ‘something’ there… that i’m just not getting…lol…

and i didn’t know that about the coffee shops but it makes complete sense…

good luck!

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Perhaps you are looking for more subtlety than is actually there. The root statement of the burden of performance is simply: If you don’t work, you die.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Habd Hey, we agree. I have no issues with me having a burden of performance. And I have no qualms about being a beta provider in an Alpha frame. But that is because I don’t have the fear of burden of performance. I make that hurdle low. (But then again I have “means” so that makes it easier). Shit, building your own self to be a better beta is a foundation for building a better alpha. 89% on a Pareto distribution is better than 20%. If a FI shames in the forest and no one hears it…..is it really shaming?… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@newly…

How would I go about it… Does your wife know the girl…?

I’d just say something casual, like when reading the paper on the couch… “hey remember so and so…. got a strange request from her the other day… yeah so she wants to have a kid by me… yeah wants a sperm donation, she’s getting old and I set the high bar… LOL Oh well… good problems to have!”

and then segue into something benign… “what’s the mileage in your car, Might need to take for an oil change this week” and turn the page…

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, that’s a good one, but I can see wife blowing that shit up all over FaceFuckBook and having all kinds of people come out of the woodwork and into my business. I’ll have to think about this carefully. Wife knows I want more kids too but is too old, so there’s that to consider too. I have to consider what my dick told me when I heard this proposal too. lol.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@kfg

“Perhaps you are looking for more subtlety than is actually there. ”

that wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened…lol

“The root statement of the burden of performance is simply: If you don’t work, you die.”

thanks…sort of old school ‘don’t work, don’t eat…’ which i DO understand…THANKS DAD!…lol…

good luck!

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@SJF “If I wanted higher stress and lower returns I would get a low quality wife or become a single man PUA (good pussy no doubt, but certainly with stress and the highest burden of performance possible for a man that needs to concentrate on five other dimensions of their life (profession, children, home and community and extracurricular high level hobbies and adventure pursuits). “ This is more FI SJF… there is no correlation between more stress and pussy (of any stripe), maybe inverse correlation… LOL And all the dimensions you list can create virtuous cycle of demonstrable alpha in… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@newly… well i’d find it hilarious if my wife posted that on FB or something… she’d be boasting right? These are the kinds of double binds I do not miss… for many, many years I would do something like this, like deny that some other woman found me attractive for fear of hurting my wife’s feelings and then for it to come out in some other way and she be furious that it was kept a secret… No more… it’s not good game. She needs the “pain”… cats not being dogs and all. Plus you are just living an authentic… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

“yup… bitches be up on my spermzzz…. deal with it.”

I legit loled at that.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, thing is, what if I actually wanted to go through with it? May want to keep that on the divorce court down-low. We’ll see, but your point of ZFG is well noted.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@newly, go through with fathering the chick’s kid? Yikes lol

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

This is more FI SJF… there is no correlation between more stress and pussy (of any stripe), maybe inverse correlation… LOL And all the dimensions you list can create virtuous cycle of demonstrable alpha in the Dynamic, Passionate and Authentic vein… Really the only limit is in understanding FI and RP completely, understanding game dynamics well enough to execute on them and maintaining frame. well that and target acquisition… LOL. Hey we agree… LOL I have no problem with the fact that the FI is there. Or in the fact that understanding FI and RP completely is the goal, and… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

HABD Never looked into this “burden of performance” thing… I’m not sure I agree with it as construed as you need to “work” to attract women. But if I run it through the Alpha Triad it basically adds up… so this here – “A lot of DHV is unintentional. In fact the best most genuine forms of DHV are exhibited when a Man doesn’t realize he’s actually performing in a way that demonstrate his higher value. This can be as simple as walking int a room in the right context or environment. Even humility can be DHV in the proper… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

““If I wanted higher stress and lower returns I would get a low quality wife or become a single man PUA (good pussy no doubt, but certainly with stress and the highest burden of performance possible for a man that needs to concentrate…”

Well id on’t agree with your statement here… so I don’t think we are agreeing. Unless you aren’t meaning to say that it is higher stress and lower return to have a lower quality wife or be single?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@ Sentient

It just me, though. It works for me. I’m not telling others what they should shoot for. I’m currently at the lowest stress level I have been in the last 35 years. (And not that the previous stress was a problem.)

(You could say I’m just saying that shit just to qualify myself to the commenters.)

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“… I’m not sure I agree with it as construed as you need to “work” to attract women.” Not to attract women, to live. That’s why you can’t escape it. KFG Maxim Number Something or Other: A man can best evaluate the looks of a woman while she is sleeping. A woman can best evaluate the looks of a man while he is chopping wood. He isn’t necessarily chopping wood to attract a woman, he’s chopping wood so he doesn’t freeze to death in the winter. And women find that attractive. At root because she doesn’t want to freeze to… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@SJF “@Habd Hey, we agree.” good… bc i really do need to get some work done…lol but here’s me being spergy again…lol… “Shit, building your own self to be a better beta is a foundation for building a better alpha. 89% on a Pareto distribution is better than 20%. ” i know what you are trying to say, but it’s NOT better if you are still in that 89% that’s not getting sexed up (bc they have no game/don’t even understand the problem they face = normal blue pill men – married or not)…and that’s actually WHY i spend so… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“i think the biggest problem i’m having with this, is that i’m not separating the benefit to the FI (bc there would be…) from the benefit to me”

I think my issue is similar. Where does the burden of performance end, and catering to the FI begin? I guess it’s just one of those things that every man has to decide for himself. The trick is when you hide behind your “burden of performance” as an excuse to stay within your comfort zone.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . i’ve internalized that any benefit to the FI (or ‘work’ on behalf of a girl) is a detriment to me/men in general…” The MGTOW Problem. It can’t be resolved, so you might as well stop trying. Like any engineering problem, what you can do is search for the optimization that meets your needs of the moment and wing it from there. And sooner or later the Space Invaders(tm) are going to get you, so you might as well stop trying to avoid that as well. You can’t win, only put off losing. So it really is… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@having a bad day low alpha low beta = omega high alpha low beta = playah…lol low alpha high beta = beta provider/orbiter high alpha high beta = alpha provider (this is actually the goal for a great marriage btw…lol) but to get ‘laid like tile’ all you really need is high alpha (= high sexual repro fitness) You are totally mis-representing low alpha/high beta. It is greater beta, lesser alpha. He is alpha but he is greater beta. And you are totally misrepresenting beta as blue pill. It is not. Blue pill is not understanding red pill. Not being… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Andy “The trick is when you hide behind your “burden of performance” as an excuse to stay within your comfort zone.” No. The trick is when your burden of performance is a low hurdle and you: -Stop Hoping for a Completion of Anything in Life -Live With an Open Heart Even If It Hurts -Live As If Your Father Were Dead -Know Your Real Edge and Don’t Fake it -Always Hold To Your Deepest Realization -Never Change Your Mind Just to Please a Woman -Your Purpose Must Come Before Your Relationship -Lean Just Beyond Your Edge -Do It for Love… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

The burden of performance ends when you are no longer able to perform. Or you die. Whichever comes first, your mileage may vary. Okay, forget about the FI in regards to your burden. Not a factor, unless you choose to perform by someone else’s metrics. A man has to ” do something ” to be considered a ” man “. This is not according to the FI unless you happen to look to it for direction. *hint* Mistake to do so. Besides having to work to earn a living and keep yourself in reasonable shape, a man has to develop… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Blaximus, you son of a bitch.

Some of your best masculine red pill shit, ever. I love you man.

Thanks for that. I certainly resonate with that. And you beat the blue pill stuffing out of the stupidity that there is beta in the masculine burden of performance. Or in provider-ship.

That there is Alpha Oak All the Way Down!

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Blax
Without burden or stressors, a man is basically a chick with a dick. We’d have to fill our lives with gossip and emotional turmoil and social networking in order to have something to do. We’d have to invent bullshit problems not to be solved, but to be talked about ad naseum.

So we’d turn into hipster SJW’s?

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Lol, thanks SJF. The feelings mutual.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Anonymous –

http://m.memegen.com/dxgtnh.jpg

He he heee, yeah, basically.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Sigh. I’m going to do something that is totally unconventional. In order to knock some order into this whole thread. My apologies to BluePillProfessor if he minds that I quote a whole fucking chapter of his book in order for you guys to shut the fuck up about it being anything other that the best red pill distillation ever for married man game. First, go and purchase this book. BluePillProfessor did a great job and spent endless amount of time on it. And it is great. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BGZO1WK/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb Second, see if this whole chapter excerpt resonates with red pill. Not blue… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Okay, forget about the FI in regards to your burden. Not a factor, unless you choose to perform by someone else’s metrics. A man has to ” do something ” to be considered a ” man “. This is not according to the FI unless you happen to look to it for direction. *hint* Mistake to do so.” @Blax Yeah, this all sounds real simple. The problem is that you’re not really taking into account how deep societal programming runs. It affects what we perceive as a “want” or a “need” despite the fact that it may not be necessary… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Blaximus and Andy Andy said: “I think my issue is similar. Where does the burden of performance end, and catering to the FI begin? I guess it’s just one of those things that every man has to decide for himself. The trick is when you hide behind your “burden of performance” as an excuse to stay within your comfort zone.” “Deciding if I’m actually doing something for myself, or if I’m doing it because that’s what I’m “supposed” to do. When I say FI, I mean societal programming. Maybe you take it to mean something else.” I read a lot… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

I may be vain, but I’m not a Narcissist.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Ok, Sorry then.

vain

adjective
1. having or showing an excessively high opinion of one’s appearance, abilities, or worth.
“their flattery made him vain”
synonyms: conceited, narcissistic, self-loving, in love with oneself, self-admiring, self-regarding, self-obsessed, egocentric, egotistic, egotistical; More

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Label me whatever you want.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Well my intent is not to label you for nefarious purposes. My intent is to help with self awareness and self improvement. To identify tactics on how to improve upon your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. If indeed vanity is part of your character set own it and use it for your advantage. Employ empathy in your social interactions. You want to look good to others so do good in your social interactions. Always be adding value. Stop trying to stand out, get attention and be so darn special. It’s okay to be ordinary. Act ordinary and do things that… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

One of the game changers for me was connecting with other guys about five years ago. Hanging out with guys exclusively at times, just talking over and resonating with like-minded guys, spending time away from my wife or women. Hell even spending time with a masculine bitchy woman neighbor at my farm property in a totally platonic way was good. But she died suddenly recently, and that sucked. She was a good friend in a guy type of way (Her SMV was a WNB3 out of 10). (Not much of Nice Guy syndrome in the book has much to do… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 “Getting Strong Helps Nice Guys Reclaim Their Masculinity Masculinity denotes strength and power. Because of their conditioning, Nice Guys tend to fear these traits. As a result, they often become emotionally and physically soft. Some even take pride in this softness. I’ve met many Nice Guys who work out or practice martial arts, but who are still afraid of their strength. Embracing one’s masculinity mean’s embracing one’s body, power, and spaciousness. In order to do this, recovering Nice Guys have to stop putting junk into their bodies and train them to respond to the physical demands of being male.… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Seek out a mentor http://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/comment-page-3/#comment-136711 Seeking Out Healthy Role Models Helps Nice Guys Reclaim Their Masculinity I encourage recovering Nice Guys to visualize what they think a healthy male would look like and think of healthy masculine traits they would like to develop. With that picture in mind, they can go out and look for men who have these kinds of qualities. These men may be in their church, their company, their softball team, even characters on TV or the movies. By observing how these men live their lives and interact with the world, the Nice Guy can begin assimilating… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Dutchman How bout this from the Glover book. It seems this is working for you lately: “Setting Boundaries Helps Nice Guys Get The Love They Want The subject of boundaries was presented in Chapter Five. Nowhere is the issue of boundary setting more important for Nice Guys than in their most intimate relationships. By setting healthy boundaries with their partners, Nice Guys create situations in which both they and their partner can feel safe to be vulnerable and experience true intimacy. I show Nice Guys, often with their partners watching, how to step up to their line and set boundaries.… Read more »

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