Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Culum Struan
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Right guys: On anonymity – I posted a longer version of this a few posts ago but I can’t find it now. Basically what YaReally said about keeping your stuff private but remember there are two kinds of anonymity: 1. There is being anonymous to a stranger reading your comments trying to track you down. This isn’t difficult to achieve and most of us do it, but some of the recent comments (scribblerg and SJF etc) have probably made it possible even for strangers to find you. 2. Then there is being anonymous TO SOMEONE WHO KNOWS YOU IN REAL… Read more »

Softek
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@ YaReally My friend might be fucked. Good chance he got this girl pregnant. I’m worried for him. Hoping that doesn’t happen, shit. I’ve had a couple scares. Like she’d be blowing me, obviously without a condom on, and then get on top of me and start fucking me. Never came inside her once but it’s been kind of scary feeling like she’s tried to do that. And I always take a piss sometime before going at it; I remember reading that that clears any leftover sperm from the last ejaculation out of the urethra. Anal has freaked me out… Read more »

scribblerg
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@The Question, Rollo et al – I’m a student of revolutions and how they occur and I think Roosh is very much about kicking off something of this sort based on the messaging and people involved. Talk of the Irish revolutions and his constant “defense” of tradition and posing as some kind of social commentator and activist all jibe with the kind of rhetoric revolutionary leaders engage in. He’s also cultivating a closed following that tolerates no dissent – I was banned on Rok two years ago for laughing about Roosh’s political, economic and historical ideas. For those here who… Read more »

The Question
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@ Rollo Tomassi I’m working on a post about this at my place, but I think what we might be seeing with Roosh is the phenomenon of the rise of the “untouchables.” These are modern men who have no wife, no child, no house, no strong ties and no liabilities, possibly no long-term career or one that doesn’t pay. They may also have no student loans and no credit card debt, but most importantly they have no hope of marrying and having a family, either by choice or by necessity. They can’t get regular jobs due to their personalities or… Read more »

The Question
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I’m wondering why he just doesn’t then apply to a place like Breitbart and get a job there doing the exact same thing. He’s different enough from Milo (or Milo different from everyone else?) to carve out his own niche and use his previous work as a reference and possible bring new traffic to their sites. He’d have to give up his autonomy by working for them, but there’s always a price to pay.

Dutchman
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@TheQuestion

Roosh should just start talking about how the illuminati are behind feminism and get hired by Alex Jones

Anonymous Reader
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Forge I never seem to be able to get in a groove where I get up at the same time, eat at the same time, meditate, work out (I work out like crazy or not at all lol), all that shit. I’m a man of chaos, not rhythm. It tends to mean that I become competent at a lot of things but masterful at very few. It tends to mean flashes of brilliance at work etc followed by periods of stagnation. There’s just no steady uphill grind. Except in core mindset, which is great but not sufficient. Sometimes I think… Read more »

The Question
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@ Dutchman

What’s sad is that if Roosh said that he would be closer to the truth about feminism than the MSM is about the ROK meetup.

The Question
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@ Rollo Tomassi

It’s almost like MSM and SWJs crave indignation and he provides it.

http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/17/indignation/

“In the absence of indignation, women will actively manufacture it for themselves.”

If what you say is true, Roosh is looking to manufacture it for a living and develop a Joker-Batman relationship where they need him as much as they hate him.

What would they do without him? Go back to manufacturing their own indignation?

redlight
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RooshV couldn’t even keep a job at MacD now

“Hey are you that legal rape guy?”

LTR, forget about it, and sex, a woman accusing of him rape can send him to jail

having a bad day
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@Rollo YaReally ok, you guys have suuuuuucccckkkkkkeeeddddd me back in…F*k!!!…lol…i’m not getting ANY work done…lol… — here’s some info on roosh’s ‘thing’…and how it’s playing out in the real world… up til last night i didn’t have any idea what was going on. i knew you guys were talking about him doing something and trying to copy julien in australia…but it didn’t register bc it wasn’t really important to me…lol… BUT, last night my wife (all wound up) comes over to me at the table and tells me… her: “have you heard about this group that wants to legalize RAPE?!!!!… Read more »

Jeremy
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I’m dumping this here because it’s now an OBE thread.

Ladies, you’re being replaced faster than you realize…
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/technology/virtual-reality-male-sex-toy-7299079

having a bad day
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@digireaper props on going out…put in the work and you WILL get better… “Besides, getting in to a club costs money and at this moment I feel that I’m wasting my money since I can only be on a club for a couple of hours before getting burned out, and my game performance is just pathetic.” do you have any of these around you?…a mall, coffee shops, bookstores, grocery stores, etc. if yes, then day game doesn’t cost you any money…lol…and you can ‘day game’ at night, too…lol…and most of these places are open at night… also, it’s not a… Read more »

having a bad day
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@digireaper

also…

“Only bland 2 minute “conversations”. I definitely feel some social situations being a little bit easier though.”

that’s the very first step is developing as a mighty slayer of poon…lol…(not kidding…)

good luck!

having a bad day
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@Forge props on putting in the work… from YaReally: “Trust the process and push your comfort zone…follow the 3 second rule and have something prepared. Open with stupid shit and try to recover so your brain doesn’t think you need the “perfect” open to approach, etc etc” here, let me ftfy… Trust the process and push your comfort zone…follow the 3 second rule and have something prepared. Open with “Stupid Shit…” and try to recover so your brain doesn’t think you need the “perfect” open to approach, etc etc lol…(only partly kidding…) AND you can start to practice your ‘non-verbal… Read more »

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@The Question – Did you actually suggest that Roosh could get a job at Breitbart? Because they hired Milo? Milo was and is a real journalist and had been for 10 years before getting on at Breitbart. And while he’s wild and provocative, he’s no “race realist” and doesn’t encourage many of the sordid practices Roosh has done and still does. I’m left wondering – do you not realize what a scumbag Roosh is or do you think that Breitbart would ever promote that crap? Seriously, WTF? I think some men in the manosphere have normalized “alt right” and women… Read more »

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HABD
note for married men working on changing your marriage – regarding our marriage ‘turning around’/getting better = she noticed THAT…lol…but, i just told her that it’s probably bc we are ‘growing together’ in our relationship, you know, like what is SUPPOSED to happen when you’re married

Right, “show”, don’t “tell”. Explaining women to women is like the teacher in the old Peanuts cartoons, all they hear is “wah, waaah, wahh, wahhh”.

Younger women aren’t as plugged into the MSM, but they are more plugged into social media, which is in some ways even worse.

having a bad day
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@Dutchman ok, one more, then i’m out for awhile…not kidding this time…lol i wanted to give you some stuff to work on/with…YaReally and SJF have pointed out that it’s easy to burn down your situ…and that’s certainly possible from one perspective…but i’ve been thinking about this, and i’m pretty sure it’s possible to turn around a marriage without that much risk. (disclaimer – i’m just some goof on the interwebs, and i just thought of this today…so, DO NOT listen to me…bc the peer review study is not finalized, yet…lol) now, ((I)) didn’t do it this way…i went full pua,… Read more »

mmredd
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@yareally
“Can’t find a good clip of Tyler’s story”
This one maybe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR2j2RC0Ytk

ps. thank you man for all your help!

YaReally
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@Dutchman @HABD “then, at bed time, you will conveniently ‘forget’ that you were going to sex her up…she will shit test you on this…just tell her you are tired and going to sleep (no physical approach to her at all…not even a kiss) then, just let her hamster spin…” This reminds me of the late great Patrice O’Neal’s advice when your wife won’t put out (44:21): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYCFjyDOKF0&t=44m21s This is some advanced shit lol I haven’t tried this but what he’s saying DOES make sense in terms of chick psychology. Something to consider lol Highly recommend listening to Patrice’s YouTube stuff… Read more »

KP
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Sun Wukong,

half an hour away

Wait, this is DALLAS you’re talking about and people are put off by a mere half-hour drive?

My how things have changed.

Culum,

[Taleb is] also a devotee of going from the ground up empirically – seeing what works and building on that, instead of top down theory to the facts on the ground.

Indeed. If a theory is not at the very least explanatory, and also in most cases predictive, then it’s just empty words.

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“note – she might NOT approach you, but YOU don’t do anything…repeat the same thing again the next day…until she cracks…lol…and throw in a random comment about OC’s husband being sick…her hamster will spin that up…lol)”

I try this all the time. Doesn’t work. Dinner/Bed time routine with little kids kills ANY sexual tension built up throughout the day.

Dutchman
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Have you ever tried it day after day as he recommends?

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@Dutchman

Hehe, nope. I have tried, but I just get tired of waiting. I usually just start over again after the kids go to bed, and that gets her in the mood. Might be worth a try though. Everyone’s situation is different.

Sentient
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Dutchman / HABD and related to Ya’s Patrice video… The take away and dread spikes HABD outlines above will absolutely change your wife’s behaviors… especially if you absent mindedly mention her friend she saw being into you… “OC… how much do you think she weighs?” or “She looks like she has been dieting” or something like that will kick the hamster right in the ass hard… And the sexual takeaway is nuclear… because that is the very last card in her Rolodex… Did it a few time’s, without Patrice’s sexing up of the wife… Just mid sex, getting shit tested… Read more »

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@Sentient, the other day after my wife did some exercise tape, she said, “Yuck, I’m so sweaty.” I said, “So, your tits are real sweaty then huh?” She replied in a snotty fashion, “Don’t worry about my tits.” Thinking of all that I’ve learned from you and others, I nonchalantly said, “Okay, I’ll worry about another woman’s tits then.” No way would I have ever said that pre-red-pill. But now that shit is like an involuntary response to these types of shit tests. That night she complained that I had planned just to go to bed early. lol. Bitches be… Read more »

having a bad day
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@Dutchman “when she DOES approach you, sex her up good…bc THAT should be desire sex…” i know this is focused on the “sex” angle (and that’s important and all…lol), but i just realized it might not be clear WHY you want to wait…, so i wanted to point this out: THIS (her coming to YOU…for sex…) is when she FINALLY accepts your frame… and agrees to ‘submit’… (it really is THAT important…) until this point it’s all just her hindbrain thinking about it/considering it…THAT’s why you hold out…for the underlying dynamic to play out…to get her to ‘chase’ YOU…and it… Read more »

newlyaloof
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@HABD, again, my situ may not work and the marriage may blow up, but at least I know I’m applying game correctly when one of my buddies said to me lately, “Yeah man, I was talking to your brother the other day and we think you’re getting some action on the side or something. You’ve changed man.” lol. Change your frame, and people’s perception of you changes for the better.

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@all first, i just want to say that sometimes, having solid rules about social circle shit is gay. the main rule being ‘don’t shit where you eat.’ i have a hot secretary, and i mean, it’s just retarded. we’re out a work function and like, she asks what drink im getting, and i order the simplest, stupidest drink — jack and diet. she acts like it’s the best thing since sliced bread. that’s all she drinks when she goes out now (according to her). constantly asking me for ‘ideas about’ where she should get lunch… then there’s the chick at… Read more »

Dutchman
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lol Scray how many dudes would KILL to have those kind of problems.

Sentient
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@Scray

“such a mindfuck. like it’s a good decision to hold back on these, but at the same time, i feel like it makes me weaker, because i have to hold back.”

A good decision to who? If it is to you, fine. Enjoy the pain. If not?

Follow the Platinum Rule – do exactly what you want to whenever you want to – and you will always be happy.

Now it’s not easy to follow, and it doesn’t mean instant gratification. But in all things be working towards it, and enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

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@sentient

“A good decision to who? If it is to you, fine”

it isn’t to me. i’ve had shit blow up before and it’s def not a good fallout.

it’s sort of like eating pizza. sure, eating an entire pizza is probably awesome for you in the moment…but it makes you a fat fuck.

but ya who knows what the future holds. id rather not, tho.

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@scray

How to you keep these situations from blowing up WITHOUT fucking them? This kind of stuff has happened to me in the past and the girls have ended up resenting me for not making a move…

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@Scray

“it’s sort of like eating pizza. sure, eating an entire pizza is probably awesome for you in the moment…but it makes you a fat fuck.””

True… and following the Platinum Rule, working toward what you really want – if it was pizza – might look like taking up cycling or something so you could eat 3,000 calories and not think about it.

This is what I mean. In your case, if you really wanted these girls, you arrange things so you can. The Platinum rule is both freeing and self reinforcing… and scary.

scray
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@Sentient ” In your case, if you really wanted these girls, ” ya, if i wanted them enough to outweigh the risk of shit going south and the effort required to minimize that risk, sure. but that’d be like, if somehow i thought they were ‘the one’ or some other gay shit. the fundamental truth is that the list of girls who are worth that is very, very short….and may not exist at all. for now, it just feels like im greedy and im in the middle of a golden age where i’m slaying chicks left and right, so of… Read more »

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@ having a bad day February 3rd, 2016 at 2:47 pm Hey, still posting on this comments section, so as not to distract from the newe,r different essay. Great job in your comments here. I was worried that Dutch takes it too fast before he has his frame set with congruence and looks like he is trying too hard. She isn’t stupid and the “fake” alpha vibe that the wife “feels” is really ammunition for her to keep holding frame. And I get the idea that your previous discussions were with the caveat that you went full PUA from the… Read more »

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@SJF “Great job in your comments here. I was worried that Dutch takes it too fast before he has his frame set with congruence and looks like he is trying too hard. She isn’t stupid and the “fake” alpha vibe that the wife “feels” is really ammunition for her to keep holding frame.” YaReally had a comment about how she will shit test even more if she can’t figure out if you’re beta than if she’s sure you’re beta. I think this is actually where I’ve been with her for YEARS, but it’s intensified lately as I’ve turned up the… Read more »

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@Dutchman In regards to one-itis, you can show indifference to her as you should, but you still need to develop your own mindset to not have one-itis. To do this, some of us have been going on about Marc Lewis’ Biology of Desire and the way to pave in the rut you are in (the rut of one-itis). Rollo calls one-itis a psychological disease (I think) but you can easily call it a habit or an addiction. And as I discussed one way to overcome this is with other dopamine inputs as a work-around. You need to employ these other… Read more »

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“Exhibit alpha behavior without having one-itis. Otherwise you look like an incongruent ass hole. Be an alpha self-improved man. Not your old self in an ass hole costume.”

Good shit. I hadn’t even thought about it in those terms.

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Dutchman I’m definitely having to fight the oneitis. My brain is so used to it. That’s an extinction burst going on, right there. You have the one-itis neural pathways going back for years, right? You must consciously, deliberately, reroute that. The pathway won’t go away, but you need to redirect it. Lots of good advice on how to do that, and let me add this: just open girls. Just talk with women in coffee shops, find something out about them that is interesting and tell them “Oh, that’s interesting!”. Run approach and interact. In doing this you will be showing… Read more »

J in Houston
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Longtime reader of TRM here, Rollo. One of two absolute must read sites for me and the only ‘sphere-related site which I read every post and try to read all of the comments (FYI – the other is Instapundit). Your writing here has answered a lot of questions for me and dramatically impacted my outlook on not only my own interpersonal relationships but society in general. I can’t thank you enough for that. Now, let me remove the kneepads and get to the real reason for this comment: I would like to suggest that you display numbering on the comments.… Read more »

Liz
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Here is my advice to Dutchman. Commence mockery or ridicule or whatever but I have to say it. If your wife is seriously having anxiety issues/hormone imbalances from what you’ve indicated I don’t think “amused mastery” or “gaming” whatever is going to help really. Dissecting this into infinitum “she said/he said” and so forth….every action/reaction, it’s not that material for a person with a chemical imbalance. This is my SERIOUS advice. I know it isn’t PC, and it isn’t sphere approved either. Just hold her. Pat her head, and tell her that everything is going to be alright. When she’s… Read more »

Yollo "Intractable" Comanche
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@Liz

Why don’t more women want men to know how to be useful in non-financial ways?

Sentient
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@Liz

” That’s not a slam on her, I get that way too and when I do, when I have anxiety issues, or panic attacks, that is what my husband does. He holds me close, pats my head, and tells me it will be alright.”

let me take a wild guess here Liz… You are totally wild about your husband no? He is your rock?

Liz
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“You are totally wild about your husband no? He is your rock?”

Yes!

Sentient
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@ Liz

““You are totally wild about your husband no? He is your rock?”

Yes!”

dear girl, thank you for demonstrating why no one on a RP site should ever, ever listen to any female poster about anything.

Now go make that man a sammich… and toss in a BJ as well… wink

Dutch’s wife can’t bear the thought of him at worst, or is indifferent to him at best…

SJF
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@Bluepillprofessor January 26th, 2016 at 2:01 pm Love the pic for this article! I use the same pic for the cover of my book. It was very prescient of you to post “Ovulation & Dread” this week as it happens my long awaited magnum opus: “Saving a Low Sex Marriage: A Man’s Guide To Dread, Seduction, and the Long Game” will be available as early as Friday (January 29)!!! See this link to access the book when it is ready (and also for some ultra cool podcasts comprising a Married Red Pill entry level class in the style of the… Read more »

SJF
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Of course, I didn’t get the code right in order to close the bold after: This is a MUST READ!

Here’s one for you Dutch:

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/44djow/response_to_askmrp_17year_oneitis_marriage_you/

Did you pick up Bluepillprofessor’s book yet?

SJF
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One of the annoyances, or pet peeves that I have is when certain individuals say that “I bought your book” to Rollo Tomassi or will to Bluepillprofessor. When with the price they put on the book is to get knowledge out to individuals to promote red pill and game. These two individuals are so obviously not doing it to make a buck. They are autonomously men of means and are trying to help you guys out. With their information. Secondly, this conversation thread upstream, obviously had something stuck in my craw, when HABD and Sentient started talking about the immediate… Read more »

Sentient
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“Writers with experience coaching and advising men in low sex marriages, have consistently written that it will take about 1 month of hard work and repair for each year that you have been in the low sex marriage. ”

Such as whom?

SJF
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@Sentient

I see what you did there.

Shit test.

having a bad day
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@SJF from feb 8 at 6:18pm i wasn’t going to get into this bc i don’t really have time…but after reading this blue pill professor’s excerpt, it really could cause some problems for some men, so i’m getting sucked back in…lol…and i know you told me to not take it easy on you (bc you can take it) so i won’t…if that’s changed, you should probably just skip this whole comment…lol… so here goes…bc you really do need to understand this stuff if you are going to be giving advice to men trying to work out their marriage issues… (note… Read more »

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Thanks for being such a crappy-style writer with poor narrative with great ideas. That makes me feel better (with my psychological projection I consider myself less than excellent at writing because of lack of skills development over decades). I would be (somewhat) elated if Dutch could turn it around fast. The faster the better. I most certainly don’t think it is possible to change it that fast. But my thinking that doesn’t take away from his potential. See, what the other mysterious “other writers” had is some feedback on forums. Athol Kay obviously saw men alpha up in six months… Read more »

Andy
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“I would be (somewhat) elated if Dutch could turn it around fast. The faster the better. I most certainly don’t think it is possible to change it that fast.” “she’s not going to all the sudden give it up precisely because she can’t trust and doesn’t think the new alpha red pill is congruent or lasting.” @SJF When you say this it’s just hard to believe that you’re as far along as you think you are. It IS possible. I don’t care how bad it was. I mean, I don’t know how LIKELY it is to happen in two weeks…… Read more »

Culum Struan
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If I’m not mistaken, I think the point HABD (and Andy) are trying to make is that it is important to understand the real dynamics at play here, and that it is *structurally* possible to turn things around in two weeks or whatever. In *practice* it will take 99% of men a lot longer (and in fact I think it took both HABD and Sentient quite a while from reading their posts), but that’s a question of each man’s starting point, dedication and speed of skill acquisition. It is NOT because the *wife* needs to be “eased into it” or… Read more »

Sentient
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“In *practice* it will take 99% of men a lot longer (and in fact I think it took both HABD and Sentient quite a while from reading their posts), but that’s a question of each man’s starting point, dedication and speed of skill acquisition.” The practice of the practice WILL take longer if people are out there saying it should take longer though… that is the issue. Not HOW long it takes, but how long a guy allows himself to expect it to take. This book is actively advocating that it WILL/MUST take time. When that entire premise is just… Read more »

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“It is NOT because the *wife* needs to be “eased into it” or whatever. ”

You gotta be shitting me. It is because the wife needs to be eased into or she’ll walk away with cash and prizes. And your dead bedroom.

She needs to ease into it and he needs to develop mastery that he never had.

Sentient
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“or she’ll walk away with cash and prizes. ”

this undercurrent of fear is subcommunicated… fuck her “cash & prizes” that in and of itself is BP/FI mentality.

I started my reset with the simple declaration that we would undoubtedly get divorced, given the path we were on (having spent a week reading Vox CH and AK). Best thing I ever did, in retrospect.

Dutchman
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Might as well update here… I’ve been fucking up a bit. Last week I was ignoring her for a few days after some dumb shit and when I got home on Friday, she kept engaging me. I backturned her several times and actually told her calmly that I was considering divorce if certain dramatic behaviors continued (don’t want to reveal too much). But then I just got tired of my burden of performance the next day and wanted to fucking relax so I was far more comforting and chose words that I figured would not prompt more shit testing. I’ve… Read more »

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@SJF I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it before or not but I DID have mastery with her in the beginning. She basically worshipped the group I walked on when we first got together. I just slowly let myself be betaized and developed oneitis for her (because I was enjoying the comfort stuff/getting older). Rollo wrote about this here: http://therationalmale.com/2015/06/03/you-never-forget-your-first/ “It’s not that she’d settled for what she thought was a Beta in her early twenties, it’s that he was what she thought was Alpha then, but learned later that he wasn’t. This is the risk inherent to Hypergamy –… Read more »

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Dutch “@HABD, Sentient: How long did it take you to turn things around?” It took about 8 months to get to the increase in sex life I wanted (and really the first month showed shocking improvement, which was ceded away in naivete), and another year to realize that there is no end… no “finish line”. LOL Once you understand the matrix, it’s much worse in many ways because you SEE there will never be an end. There will always be hypergamy running it’s sub routine, always be the TRUTH of emotion validating her feelings… And then once you get to… Read more »

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“I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it before or not but I DID have mastery with her in the beginning. ” Same here… total hand at a peak alpha phase in my life… her words in “awe of me” couldn’t believe “I liked her”, had “never done that before” (lol) was “falling in love with” me… and before our wedding wrote me a long note that the sight of me makes her tremble and the thought of me committing to her made her weak… she was blissfully happy. So ya… all well, all well. And I felt the same, thought… Read more »

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@Dutchman “@HABD, Sentient: How long did it take you to turn things around?” for me, from the time i first read CH/TRM/early MMSL (following a google search…) to having my first successful interaction with hb8 (and hb7) (both about 19yo…lol) (where i KNEW i could have taken her home…and all the predictions that i made regarding the interaction were right on the money…and i could even see the hamster spinning…lol) ‘in the wild’ (in front of my wife = dread…lol…) was about 10-11 months…but, i was already comfortable with flirting with hot girls at that point…so, maybe 6 months… (although… Read more »

having a bad day
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@SJF that annoyance that you feel (which comes through in your writing loud and clear) is the ‘delta’ on your cognitive dissonance…and my pushing on you is causing that push-back…that’s ok…i wouldn’t push on you, if i didn’t think it were possible for you to get a benefit… i actually just want the best for you…which is why i’m pushing your comfort zone around a little bit…lol… “I most certainly don’t think it is possible to change it that fast. ” why not? serious question, bc it gets to the heart of my thought exercise…girls are reactive…they ping off their… Read more »

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You guys are fucking killing me. We are all on the same side of this equation. All seeking the same goal as married men. @Andy “@SJF When you say this it’s just hard to believe that you’re as far along as you think you are. It IS possible. I don’t care how bad it was. I mean, I don’t know how LIKELY it is to happen in two weeks… but it’s important for everyone (including yourself) to understand that it IS possible.” Wtf are you talking about. When did I ever say it is not possible (I did indeed proscribe… Read more »

SJF
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“of course i would endorse it in that situ…i will NEVER diss anything that allows a man to make accurate predictions and better his life…BUT this is NOT ‘low downside/high upside’…it’s just the opposite…like current MMSL…that’s why women buy that stuff (and allow their husbands to participate…lol)…bc it’s in THEIR best interests…not the best interests of their husbands…for a variety of reasons…” It is not like the current MMSL at all. It is good. (you are making shit up, not having read the book. It has only been out for about 12 days. I’m sure you will hear more about… Read more »

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Dutchman But then I just got tired of my burden of performance the next day and wanted to fucking relax so I was far more comforting and chose words that I figured would not prompt more shit testing. I’ve been really busy at work this week so I haven’t really been reading or thinking about this stuff too much. How much do you exercise, and what kind of exercise do you get? When feeling tired of burden of performance, if possible get away from her. Go drink a coffee. If you have a hobby out of the house, do that.… Read more »

SJF
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I think if we try hard enough, propelled by the Dutchman’s dilemma, we can get this essay to the 1000 comments quota. That is a lot of comments. Dutch if you want easy, translate this old CH essay into your married man game. Single man game into married man game. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/the-easiest-way-to-revive-a-flagging-relationship/ “When a woman pulls back, a typical man’s instinct will be to try and fix his flagging relationship. Men do; that’s how we’re designed. Unfortunately, more often than not this male instinct to action will drive the nails into the coffin of his dying relationship. Most men overreact, either… Read more »

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“But then I just got tired of my burden of performance the next day and wanted to fucking relax so I was far more comforting and chose words that I figured would not prompt more shit testing. I’ve been really busy at work this week so I haven’t really been reading or thinking about this stuff too much.”

That’s your best Cypher imitation? Good luck with that.

Andy
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“Wtf are you talking about.”

@SJF

What HABD said.

Dutchman
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“How much do you exercise, and what kind of exercise do you get? When feeling tired of burden of performance, if possible get away from her. Go drink a coffee. If you have a hobby out of the house, do that. Got any male friends? Go to see them. But get out of her zone, because otherwise you slip backwards. I ask about exercise, because we all need it, and paradoxically we often need it the most when “tired”. Instead of having a beer, have a set of pushups” I used to exercise often, now I don’t exercise at all.… Read more »

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“This is just “ditch the omega for beta.” No, I want to ditch the beta and omega for alpha.”

NICE…

““Would it kill you to go visit a local bar and read a book?”
I know I need to do this.”

I have the same problem. If I have the excuse that I’m going with someone else I have no problem just leaving and hitting the bar. But if I’m by myself… I can’t bring myself to do it. Some major FI programmed guilt thing. I wouldn’t read a book though.

Dutchman
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@Andy

“But if I’m by myself… I can’t bring myself to do it. Some major FI programmed guilt thing. ”

Yup, that’s me, exactly.

kfg
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@Andy: “… I can’t bring myself to do it. Some major FI programmed guilt thing. I wouldn’t read a book though.”

That’s going to make it harder to read a book that deals with the issue. Like this one:

http://terebess.hu/english/AlanWatts-On%20The%20Taboo%20Against%20Knowing%20Who%20You%20Are.pdf

SJF
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“Would it kill you to go lift weights?” Yes, fuck that lol. “Would it kill you to go visit a local bar and read a book?” I know I need to do this. Perhaps you should read The Way of Men and realize the importance of masculine tactical virtues and their surrogates in a modern current society. Strength is one of them. And no one can accurately judge intellectual strength. Physical strength can be judged. (esp. when your wife is fucking you in your alpha mindset). I don’t think I have too many omega behaviors. I drink but so what?… Read more »

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” . . . masculine tactical virtues . . . Strength is one of them.”

It’s also useful, and weakness is not a virtue.

“Nothing wrong with drinking in my book.”

Temperance is a feminine imperative initiative. The word is also, as is to be expected from a feminine imperative initiative, a lie. They really mean prohibition.

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Dutchman I used to exercise often, now I don’t exercise at all. I have no desire to, either. I’m not insecure about my looks, so I don’t see the benefit. I’ve never found that I get ANY kind of boost from it. Well, ok, just remember that exercise, even 30 min. walk, boosts up your immune system and reduces stress. Lifting with proper technique will up your testosterone. These are all good things, especially for a man who’s slipped into betatude…more T would be a good thing, for example. I couldn’t agree more with YaReally that if you don’t actually… Read more »

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“Nothing wrong with drinking in my book.” It’s not what you are doing per se, but why are you doing it. For example, a man who drinks with his meal, or after a meal, as a conscious part of the evening is in a mental state of “this is part of the evening, I don’t need it but I like it”. A man who puts away several ounces of alcohol late in the evening to damp down his anger and other bad feelings before going to bed is not in a good mental state, to point out another example. Plus… Read more »

Dutchman
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@SJF “I’m advocating for practical realism. Sure her hind brain can be DTF after two weeks, but her limbic mid-brain ain’t going to feel good about it, and her fore-brain is going to want to cock-block, have LMR and ASD. Women have been know to engage their fore-brains on occasions. Especially when their are children involved, when their are monetary assets (and alimony and child support payments), when there is social media, television, social conventions, when the wife has already constructed a narrative on how you are a disgusting asshole and has carefully constructed half or more of her exit… Read more »

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“Perhaps you should read The Way of Men and realize the importance of masculine tactical virtues and their surrogates in a modern current society. Strength is one of them. And no one can accurately judge intellectual strength. Physical strength can be judged. (esp. when your wife is fucking you in your alpha mindset).”

Forgot this part. I do have a TON of classically masculine interests and hobbies. Weightlifting just isn’t one of them lol.

SJF
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“I appreciate your comments, I’m just not always going to agree with you.”

Excellent. Then we have a deal.

Hit up Forge with an email.

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As I mentioned earlier, she has YEARS of experience seeing me as alpha, so it won’t be as great of a shock to her system as if she married me as a nice boring beta provider in her epiphany phase. It would be more like “oh fuck the old Dutchman is back!” It wouldn’t be the new me, it would be the old me. Gives you a tremendous advantage. A lot of men don’t have that, and thus find it easier to break up the old and start a new relationship, with all the various damage / expense involved. So… Read more »

Dutchman
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She’s actually been texting me a lot today asking for guidance on how to handle some situation and LOOKING for leadership and following my advice. Pretty cool.

Sentient
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@Dutchman

“She’s actually been texting me a lot today asking for guidance on how to handle some situation and LOOKING for leadership and following my advice. Pretty cool.”

There you go. and you know why this is right? because she tested your alpha and found it worthy, so she can trust your leading more.

Just don’t be surprised if she changes her mind after you tell her what to do… LOL More tests!

SJF
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Pretty cool indeed. Rollo wrote about the power of Take Away here: http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/23/relationship-game-wife-sex/ The power of the ‘takeaway’ In one form or another PUAs use the takeaway to shape desired behavior. This is behavioral psychology 101, reinforce the behaviors you want and punish the ones you don’t, all the time remembering that too much reward leads to satiation and cessation of the desired behavior. Don’t buy your wife flowers in order to get her to fuck you, buy them AFTER she’s performed accordingly and to your satisfaction. So many married men I know (even in their 60s ) still attempt… Read more »

SJF
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Also Dutch, the next time you go to a bar during the evening on a workday to drink club soda by yourself after weightlifting, (re)read these on your laptop:

http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/09/relationship-game-a-primer/

http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/

Dutchman
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lol

SJF
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“lol”

Shit test successfully passed.

Andy
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“Shit test successfully passed.”

comment image

newlyaloof
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@Sentient, Dutch,

So, just had an ex call me and say she wanted my sperm to have another child with since her and her husband are splitting and she wants another kid before her window closes. I asked her how the collection procedure would work. She said I could have sex with her.

Would you consider that a dread prospect for my wife? lol.

Dutchman
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LOLOLOLOLOL

having a bad day
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@SJF “You want me to quote the entire book?” if you want to, i’ll probably end up reading it…lol…but based on what i’ve seen so far, it’s a basic overview of red pill concepts that doesn’t quite make it past purple pill clarity. this would actually be a good start for guys that are not ready to jump in with both feet, and need to dip in their toes first…bc a beginning overview might be all they are ready for… and ANYTHING that get guys moving in that red pill direction is good… (sometimes i forget that when i started… Read more »

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Newly… well done sir, well done indeed. Please by all means post at least the audio of the convo when you tell your wife… LOL

newlyaloof
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@Sentient, well, I’ve had two great months of calmness and frame, but I beta-slid this week (hold up in a snow covered house for a few days with a micro-managing wife and bickering kids that made me lose my cool). So I had to admit I should not have raised my voice in front of the kids but that she needs to stop the micro-managing of pointless little shit that doesn’t matter. She had “the look” on her face that I know so well, the look that my concerns are baseless and ridiculous and she was about to walk away.… Read more »

having a bad day
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re bluepillprofessor links…never mind i found them…lol…

kfg
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“Vox’s cat scheme involves how men relate to each other in a hierarchy and how their position within THAT structure informs their relationships with girls (who are not part of that structure)” Women think that they wear make up to look good for other women, which is true on the surface, but the surface truth is because women are, underneath that, competing with each other for men. “…but not drinking is still good for you…” Temperance is better for you, but if you can’t be temperate, it’s better to abstain. “also, i’m seeing something similar to burden of performance issues… Read more »

Sentient
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@newly “At that point, I decided to do a 180 and tell her about the secret tape of her saying she’d leave me if not for the kids. ” secret tape? I guess I missed this part of your story… “a necessary one to humble her high-horse a bit ” Perhaps introduce her to a snow shovel… LOL Things will be different when I’m a gone… “and instill some dread. She didn’t see that coming, and I basically told her, “Look, it probably isn’t gonna work between us, so let’s just try to be polite to each other until the… Read more »

newlyaloof
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@Sentient, yeah put a recorder in her car during a girls’ day out and called her to do me a favor which we argued about. When she got off the phone, the recorder caught her saying if not for the kids, she’d live my fucking ass. These last two months have been awesome, so I wasn’t going to reveal anything about the tape. Wife is jealous as fuck of her. Built like a brick house. How would you go about such a nuke drop? My wife is stubborn as fuck though, so I could see her saying go ahead and… Read more »

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