Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I was actually going to ask Dutchman if his wife was on the pill, and whether he could tell her to get off them in order to eke out some ovulatory Beta Tell-like starfish sex a couple times a month. But using the reason: to avoid suicidal ideation sounds more plausibly deniable.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Kate – You seem to believe you are a prize of some sort, female solipsism in action. And no, i didn’t think you were interested in me particularly, I think your return here may be about getting tingles, which some women seem to do. Maybe you are tiring of your current hubby, who knows? But the facts remain clear. You chose the biggest hypocrite and lowlife scumbag in the manosphere – you fell for a con artist. Hint, that demonstrates your very low value. I’m taking the hard path of being real, not keyboard jockeying to look good or project… Read more »

Arne
Arne
5 years ago

If you guys want to know why evopsych is kind of laughed at; it’s the willingness to believe, and consequently act upon, unscientifically tested theories.

Have fun at Clickbait Today…. sorry, I mean Psychology Today.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“It wouldn’t shock me if you were into Myers Briggs personality tests, as well as being anti-vaccs”

Just because something is utter bullshit, doesn’t mean it can’t be useful for awareness or game. (ref. chick crack) Not that I’m implying anything is bullshit. (SJF maxim #1: Everything matters.)

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/myers-briggs-test-baloney-use-it-anyway/

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Tom – Had a ton of fights and the best decision is always to walk away if at all possible. But I think Conor McGregor said it best recently…

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeT3o_0RTmk&w=560&h=315%5D

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“If you guys want to know why evopsych is kind of laughed at; it’s the willingness to believe, and consequently act upon, unscientifically tested theories.” Well then, there is always descriptive phenomenology. Strategies for antifragility. Nassim Taleb is not interested in the mechanistic or theoretical details about biology or economics. He is adamantly anti-theortical, and prefers to operate at the level of descriptive phenomenology, of that which can be directly seen or heard with the eyes and ears. He uses a number of metaphorical phrases of his own invention to describe what he considers theoretical excess, including “lecturing birds how… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Arne

You offer no refutation. No alternatives. No actual discussion, just piss poor attempts at shit talking.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/842/755/493.jpg

Hobble back under your bridge.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Kate Minter “My SES is pretty high, all things considered. The rest of your amygdala hijack is ALL examples of women who were attracted to the guy’s money.” These two sentences are a great example of exactly why you should not write for boys… “My SES is pretty high, all things considered”… Again pure solipsism. The original example isn’t about your view of your comparison of your SES vs unknown other considerations, it’s in absolute terms – yes or no. 0 or 1. Not how you are “feeling” at a particular moment… “The rest of your amygdala hijack is ALL… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Dutchman i’ve been trying to figure out a good way to approach this, and i’ve decided to go with what i used to do with FRs at CH…bc you have to be able to SEE the issues in play/context before you can address them… = [my comments] “It’ll probably take me a while to get all of this typed out, so I’m going to break it down into a few different posts. Here’s what happened. She was in the kitchen when I came home and when I saw her, she immediately gave me a dirty look [shit test…] (which she… Read more »

Arne
Arne
5 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology The fact this is a controversial field gives the impression that it’s “findings” are questionable and not reliable as actual fields in science are.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@culum Some more great efforts Culum… Not seen anyone comment on this, worth you considering “UPDATE: I now have a text from her (in response to me thanking her for a great evening and saying I’ll see her soon): “Hey angel-face..I’m not into hookups..I’m not that kind of girl..thank you for an interesting night”. ” Man… my heart broke when I see YOU sent her this beta text…. and then BOOM you get the predictable beta busting response back (bet it was fast too)… Your text = Hey I know I came off as this alpha stuf fantasy guy, but… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

Thanks for that link troll, I’ll quote from one of the articles referenced there:

The anti-EP dragon is slain repeatedly and yet it always resurfaces, emboldened by its blind and prideful ignorance of the facts

digireaper
digireaper
5 years ago

I haven’t read all the comments here, between increased workload on my job, my car breaking down and my sister having her first child, I didn’t have much time to catch up with all of them, so I’m just going to drop another boring field report of mine: FR: Last week I went to the same disco I went the first time when I decided to go out the first time. I followed the advice here and I opened a couple of people asking them the location of the disco I was going (even though I knew where it was… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Arne
If you guys want to know why evopsych is kind of laughed at; it’s the willingness to believe, and consequently act upon, unscientifically tested theories.

Funny thing is, I don’t care. All I know is it works. What you got that works?

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Arne – I link to lengthy articles chock a block with real cites, from actual scientists and you link to Wikipedia? Go back to the shallow end of the pool, fuckwit, adults are speaking here. And fyi, nobody is suggesting that evo psych is ground truth here, merely that some aspects of it offer valid insights that are born out in the field by men who use them in their dealings with women. What you also seem to miss is that if it wasn’t predictive of female behavior, we would abandon it. We aren’t about being right, we are about… Read more »

Ang Aamer
5 years ago

I just had a thought… This idea of women mate defending due to ovulation of competition, actually PROVES that Plate Spinning, Soft Harems and Options ARE Evo Psychology based. And it pretty much means that you have to have a Plate to keep your LTR interested and attentive. I have recently said to friends having issues with their Girlfriends or Wives to get a side dish. I always have said this was due to the attitude and confidence that this exudes. And if the worst happens a warm body to jump to. Now I believe that women can sense when… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@HABD

Thanks for the breakdown, that was awesome stuff. I’ll update more either later tonight or tomorrow.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@digireaper

Good stuff… keep plugging away, it will get easier. Props on hitting the clubs, and funny story with the hookers. Clubs are without question the most difficult environment to master. If you are just starting out you might want to try bar/restaurants and bars without dance floors… just so you can get more in the habit of opening and getting into sets and leading some conversations. I mean for sure you can do it starting in clubs, just don’t beat your head against the wall running into NO girls and really rude girls hahaha https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/a-test-of-your-game-the-no-girl/
have fun

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Arne

Your utterly lazy posting of a Wikipedia link (which I already browsed myself long ago; did you even pay attention to how heavily that article is plastered with [Citation needed] from start to finish?) and nothing else aside, I have to again ask what’s your alternative that’s more predictive of real world behavior? What’s your refutation of EP based frameworks’ accurate prediction of female behavior in the field? How much have you personally tested what’s been said here?

You can’t answer any of those questions because you’re just a troll. Go piss up a rope.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Recent quick quip for tonight’s use –

You: “what’s that tattoo say?” (pull her arm closer…)

Her: blah blah blah

You: “Thought it said Daddy Issues…” (smirk) LOL

Her : Ohhhhhh…. screws up face… (the you’re an asshole look, with a gleam)

enjoy

viavitae
viavitae
5 years ago

Hello @everyone Long time lurker. Thank you everyone for sharing. I really admire this site and the consistently high level of discussion. @dutchman I don’t know all your details, but some of the things you are going through now with your wife are eerily similar to what happened to me, especially regarding her emo outbursts and demands for therapy. I tried not doing therapy thing, then doing therapy, then doing couples therapy. You cannot win this game, you must blow the whole thing out of the water. My wife started personal therapy about a year and half before our separation.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@YaReally (and whoever else might have good insight) I’m hitting a real low here. Tonight went like shit. Not only were there no women worth a shit, the women I ran in to just aimed for the weaknesses over and over again. Not false weaknesses, but real ones. “You’re going to be single forever” “You’re not getting laid”, etc etc… this is in fact beating the shit out of me. When I was BP, yeah I was depressed. I hated my life. Chicks left for another guy at will. The bailed whenever they felt and I didn’t get it. But… Read more »

N1
N1
5 years ago

@ YaReally and others
When do you start laser eye contact (looking fondly into pupils) ? I’m confused whether to crank it up as I progress, or commence straight off even before I have obtained A2/IOI’s

Pinelero
Pinelero
5 years ago

@Sun You probably have already read Roosh’s PUA book Bang?

Those strikes at male weakness, are they just more advanced shit test from game aware women? If you can learn game, then they can learn a more advanced bitch shield in response to game. Maybe you are on the cutting edge of the mating “arms-race”.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

Thanks guys! HABD – I see your point about negotiating desire when she said she wouldn’t come straight over but what was the alternative? If I wanted to meet her and try turning it around, I had to agree to meet her somewhere other than my place…and I DID get her back to my place. I totally agree I was negotiating desire (to some extent) but that was because of the first date..at this point I had no other choice did I? I could have said “my place or nothing” but I very much doubt I set it up well… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Culum I think you answered your own question… No bang to post bang comfort and she seemed happy… So no need for more comfort. Her response to your buyers remorse comfort was buyers remorse right? Maybe she still would have said the same to you at some point, but this compelled her too. All good. Still suggest ignoring her frame and just starting over in a week or two with a flirty week night text at 10pm. When she is sittting alone on Wednesday night feeling the fear of the wall closing in on her… Worth pushing right? Who cares!… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
A Definite Beta Guy
5 years ago

@Sun
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/overconfidence-is-the-heart-of-game/
Who said the sky is blue? The sky is purple. What do you mean the sky isn’t purple? The sky is purple! Just look out the fucking window.
See? It’s purple.

A Definite Beta Guy
A Definite Beta Guy
5 years ago

Are we talking about science or Science (TM)? This is one of my favorite posts about Science (TM): http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-out-of-control/ Parapsychologists are able to produce experimental evidence for psychic phenomena about as easily as normal scientists are able to produce such evidence for normal, non-psychic phenomena. This suggests the existence of a very large “placebo effect” in science – ie with enough energy focused on a subject, you can always produce “experimental evidence” for it that meets the usual scientific standards. For Science (TM)! Quite another relevant post form the same blog: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/ Thank god no guy here really has to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Sun Wukong Step back and realize all your emotions are the result of neediness and validation seeking. You won’t escape your pain until you learn to self validate. Also, instead of being angry at women, understand that Game is merely the great translator… women are speaking another language, you just need to learn fluency in it. If you KNEW the person you were talking to spoke GERMAN and you didn’t, would you have so much anger and frustration when you were communicating with them? No of course not. Just get better at your German… LOL Beta rage is the rage… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

@sun what is happening to you in both your previous FR (beer/snacks at bar, woman berates you for an hour) and current one (women attacking weakness) is that these women are attracted to you. And you are literally ZFG, since you don’t want to fuck them. Which then has them try even harder. Remember the High Plains Drifter scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZD0JRoKSq4 Here is what she says: Why don’t you watch where you’re going? Look at this. It’s ruined. You’d be amusing if you weren’t so pathetic! At a distance, you’d almost pass for a man. But you’re certainly a disappointment up… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

We were talking about Marc Lewis’ Biology of Desire for the past year. This book explains a lot of how the brains biology will easily get you into ruts including behaviors (Blue pill ways and lack of game including the eye-opening number of shit tests Dutchman was subjected to in HABD’s comment last night). Someone else mentioned earlier in this thread comment the works of Daniel Coyle and The Talent Code. I just perused Coyle’s condensed The Little Book of Talent. It seems to give some good guidelines to developing more talent at Game. (techniques on how to to go… Read more »

Roused
Roused
5 years ago

Field report from last night. First, I haven’t taken reading up on PUA very seriously as I’m getting laid consistently with the gf. But finally had some down time yesterday to read and watch a few videos. I know it might seem lame that I don’t study this a lot. When you’re partner is providing poon all the time there is less need for it. That is also a buffer perhaps…? If I don’t have my mojo going I freeze up at cold approach. I think I’ve learned my lesson though and will start taking up with more studying. Finally… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Sun As it happens I had a pretty terrible evening myself. Might write about it soon when I have a few minutes, but suffice it to say I almost posted here in the wee hours to ask if crushing sadness was a normal reaction to what was happening or if I was just being a pussy. Part of it was chemical I think – I don’t usually consume much sugar but all I could get at my venue was sugary drinks, made me dizzy and nauseated and so I couldn’t get back ‘on’ – but part of it was just… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“This suggests the existence of a very large “placebo effect” in science . . .” By carefully constructing experiments specifically to test for placebo effect, Dr. Tim Noakes has shown that much of what we think about exercise physiology has been the result of taking a placebo effect and, well, running with it. What is interesting is that some of these “phenomena,” if you sit down and really think about them for a few minutes, don’t make a lick of real world sense prima facie, yet researchers simply took them at face value and developed an entire “science” around them.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Sun, know you probably don’t feel like dwelling on it now, but a more complete FR of a typical interaction from the night would help us see what’s happening.

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

@dutch, kfg, othes “She is ALWAYS having panic attacks and needs to go hide alone in the bedroom or something. Sometimes she’ll just sit on the floor in the kitchen rocking back and forth.” She is already emotionally gone from the marriage, but physically trapped in it. Very likely amplified by not being able to implement her Plan B, the call for counselling being her first overt move in that direction. It’s actually worse, as not only is she emotionally gone from the marriage, she is blaming him for the hell of her life. I agree that counselling is to… Read more »

Roused
Roused
5 years ago

Ha, and while I was writing my comment SJF was posting one about creating new habits and getting out in the field. That shyness thing is real with me. Tall good looking guys get lazy and don’t try when they are used to women approaching them. I have got to break out of that shit. Too many buffers. All night my wing kept telling me he would bang this HB 4 or 5 and I’m like whatttt? I’m not ever banging a 5. He says it’s good practice, and I know Rollo has a post on working game with chicks… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” It also fits what Dutchman should do–build new talents . . .”

Do not focus on your mistakes and think, “Oh God! Don’t do that again.”
Instead, focus on your successes and think, “Ah! That’ s it. Do that some more.”

Advance! Advance! Advance!

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” I disagree with those who think her shit tests are about her showing sexual interest.”

It’s worse than that, it’s sexual revulsion. “Don’t you touch me!”
She actively hates his guts.

” I don’t see a consensus here for his next steps . . .”

Send lawyers, guns and money.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“I disagree with those who think her shit tests are about her showing sexual interest. Beyond the need for him to have a strong, indefatigable frame, which we all agree, I don’t see a consensus here for his next steps, even though his situation is very common for married men finding TRP.” “It’s worse than that, it’s sexual revulsion. “Don’t you touch me!” She actively hates his guts.” I agree with these two comments. It’s bad. Hence my practical advice, specifically tailored to Dutchman, not theoretical advice to alpha up (and be more comtemptible in the short run. Damage repair… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Roused

“All night my wing kept telling me he would bang this HB 4 or 5 and I’m like whatttt? I’m not ever banging a 5. He says it’s good practice, and I know Rollo has a post on working game with chicks who on a few levels below your own. Ego and buffers…”

Don’t be judgmental about your wing’s choices. Accept him for what he is. He’s not getting laid like you and he needs sex. He doesn’t have an abundance mindset. You do.

And keep your own standards. You don’t need to settle.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Sometimes you need time and and distraction until you can get your own house in order . . .”

“Nice doggy,” while looking for a bigger stick.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@KFG – Another point of agreement. It seems many supposedly smart people have failed to internalize “correlation is not causation”. It encourages pseudo intellect to pass for wisdom and genius. It’s running rampant in the tech world. Consider the interest in AI and deep learning and machine learning. The entire premise is to be able to make decisions without understanding the causation between factors at play. I see a subset of this type of madness in what passes for “marketing” in our B2B business culture today. The direct marketing approach has infected the mindset of marketing at the most basic… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

My comments @ 9:06 am: I just realized I need to re-iterate this to Dutchman. You are trying to hard and your efforts are going nowhere. You need some space. You need a different perspective. You need to get out of the fucking house and dis-engage a bit.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Essentially, what most of these hacks are doing is looking for “short cuts”. Real understanding is too troublesome. In B2B marketing (much more complex buying journey and committees than consumer marketing) what I see is a lack of interest in the customer. Every new marketing “hack” (that’s what some call them now) is essentially a trick of some sort. The idea that people want to deal with people who understand their issues, their organizations etc. is at odd with the short cut mentality. The idea that it may take 6 months to a year to get a large organization to… Read more »

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

Just throwing it out there, from my perspective what Dutchman describes sounds like a chemical problem, not a typical “relationship” issue that can be solved with behavioral changes (incentives/disincentives).

If she is on anti-anxiety medication (as was mentioned) it might be Xanax abuse, or (again) hormonal. I’m not going to say rational behavior can be expected, but it sounds more at this point like trying to reason with a drunk. You can’t if there’s a real chemical imbalance of some sort.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Scribbler: ” . . . what I see is a lack of interest in the customer.” It’s worse than that. There are no customers any more. They have been replaced with “consumers,” an entity which is a) inherently plural, there is no such thing as a consumer, and b) only exists in the mathematics. “One can see these ideas explicated beautifully by Nassim Taleb in his works . . .” I’ve never actually read him before, as casually looking over his ideas they seemed fairly straight forward and obvious to me, but the mention earlier in the thread that the… Read more »

cheupez
5 years ago

“I did not suspect at that point that my wife, with guidance and advice from her friends and personal therapist, could have been cold-bloodedly building a divorce case against me for a year…. You don’t know how dirty she can fight, how deep she can lie, or for how long she can maintain it…” Damn! Being in here is quite an eye opener for what married life must be like in the USA. That shit must really stink. Boy oh boy. Man. Sigh. How does a man even get to impregnate such a woman? How do such women manage to… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Sun – A few points from a guy who’s doing no better… – At some level, your mindset it seeking confirmatory data about your own value/worth/smv. Hence the anger, nah, it’s rage at this point. I hear no self-amusement or ease with all of this. – Venue selection. I’m figuring out I’m much better off in places other than bars on peak nights. I also think PUAs venue change more than you, when out and seek out venues with optimal chances. Day game, coffee shops, events, parks, more chill venues with hippy chicks, I don’t know but I think bars… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@kfg Re: Antifragile: “I’m up to about page 100 and it all stills seems fairly straightforward.” That is what is so good about it. The “odd and somewhat obscure style” comes from the fact that the mainstream thoughts of current typical fare have brainwashed the masses into buffering their lives. Just like the typical fare of current brainwashing that Scribbler describes in the B2B business space. And the cartel that is modern medicine. And what modern politics is doing in economic terms. (is Trump really anything different than George Washinton, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, or Ronald Reagan did?… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Addendum: I note that Taleb appears unaware of why metal parts that are going to be subject to high stress are forged, rather than machined.

What doesn’t kill them makes them stronger.

My reflexive response to “antifragile” is not “resilient” or “robust,” but “work hardened.”

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“A man who has options must leave! Like NOW. That woman is worthless to you……. You guys are so patient. I think if there are angels in this world, you guys are it.” A man who doesn’t have options must adapt. And that woman is not worthless to him. He has a small child and she is the mother of his children. I’m not saying he should stay. Only he can make that decision and any of should be wise enough to not tell him what he should do (stay or leave). I’m saying he should adapt. And advice should… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Redlight

Just want to point out to the gallery that clint eastwood scene plays out exactly the same for Dutchman and his wife. Process this…

Go all in on TRP.

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

@Redlight: Best.Clip.Ever!!!!!

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

@Sentient: “Just want to point out to the gallery that clint eastwood scene plays out exactly the same for Dutchman and his wife. Process this…

Go all in on TRP”

Exactly!

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Cheupez – Great comment. Rollo did a post on this, citing my story in which I said “She turned on me”. http://therationalmale.com/2015/01/18/she-turned-on-me/ I’ve never gotten into this here but Rollo was off with how he described the situation wrt my marriage. My ex left me for better sex at 31-32. I was the Beta with a dollop of alpha she thought she could settle for. While not a cock carousel rider, she was an alpha widow by the time I met her, the previous guy being supposedly physically abusive and volatile but (as I caught her saying once on the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Just want to point out to the gallery that clint eastwood scene plays out exactly the same for Dutchman and his wife.”

I just want to point out that as it plays out she tries to kill him while he’s taking a bath.

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

@kfg: “I just want to point out that as it plays out she tries to kill him while he’s taking a bath.”

Hahaha! Exactly!!!

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@KFG – Co-sign, and it’s a clip i’ve posted here myself but not as a “couples advice”…

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Hehehe. KFG

She may kill him in the bath… With her pussy.

Been there Dutch… It’s not a comfortable road, there is huge conflict. It is life or death, on a few levels, but worth it. Years from now it will all seem so clear.

When you feel afraid to push it… Push it.

She is the same woman who 10000 years ago on the Plains of Ur, after a few months of raging against her new tribal captor, was eagerly fucking him and raising new kids.

No time has passed to her coding.

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

and here is contempt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nInE5TITzE8

and bonus coverage:

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

@Sentient may comment about the kiss near the end of the second scene:

Bastard!

Oh, that was pretty good.
Hey, give me a kiss.

Later, sweetie.

Give me a kiss.

So that’s what you’re after?
We having blue games for the guests?

Everything in its place.
Everything in it’s own good time.

cheupez
5 years ago


I guess I got pissed off. (Still am, a bit). Not in my place to make decisions for him. But honest to God, I really pray that guy gets off that ship safely and gets to sail in calmer waters someday soon.

@Scrib
Always refreshing to read your comments, incisive, frank and honest, no bullshit. Also thanks for not whooping my ass today 😉 But anytime you feel I deserve a whooping, I welcome it. FWIW, you are one of the few I respect enough to accept a whooping from.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sun first of all, GREAT that you went out and posted a FR. “o I just play merciless Asshole Game for my own amusement:” on the one hand, if this got you out of the house, then it’s a start. on the other hand, this is like…..it’s not a crutch, but it’s just something that will fuck you over in the long run. FUCK JOKES, MAN. go out to GET LAID. fuck ‘oh i was just being an asshole for the fun of it and i didn’t even WANT to succeed’ ego-protection. play to WIN, always. if there TRULY were… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

SJF Maxim #2: Game concepts are fungible (mutually interchangeable) across relationship platforms. Scray to Sun @12:12 PM: here is something we should all already know: it’s very easy to tear other people down. it just is. most people, older women ESPECIALLY, are imperfect creatures. so ya, if you go looking for shit to bag on them about, you’re gonna find it and you can be an asshole. but you’re not gonna be the asshole who gets laid because you’re not adding value. always be adding value. Me to Dutch Jan 30 @7:22pm How bout each of you start the day… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Ok, I just got done lifting weights hard and then I put a couple pounds of vacuum-marinated beef jerky in the dehydrator. I had my heart set on going out to the farm and doing some chainsaw work, but it is raining all day. And I adapted. I’m still not off my Deida red-pill-awareness-gold kick. And I was going to tack on a few thoughts to my last comment. These are some of the first several chapter headings to The Way of the Superior Man part one section of eight sections. This shit is hard and it does get easier… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

A majority of RP thought/teaching will apply to most of today’s society. Mindset will always be key. Over my 54+ years, what I’ve seen as I’ve navigated various aspects of society and culture is that overwhelmingly the masses of people buy into a vast herd mentality that is detrimental to the individual. One must un-learn these lessons. Allowing ” others ” to establish any kind of ranking or pecking order is a recipe for sure disaster, mentally, if one decides to play that game and finds himself on the predetermined ( by other’s estimations ) losing side of the equation.… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Hey Blaximus, I read your mind and snuck my last post in before yours. I even used the word for perspective.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

SJF,

Great minds.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@digireaper Good job man. That’s what the game looks like at first, it’s no quick fix. But think of how many social circumstances are already small potatoes to you just having pushed yourself as far as you have. Flirting w a cashier? No fucking problem. Social circle game? Easy to initiate (even if you don’t have the skill to close on it yet). My first few times looked like that. Heck my yesterday still looked like that so you get back flashes sometimes lol. But on like my third time starving it was Halloween and I got a bit lucky… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Blax, Good story per usual. The easiest prospects come from you just doing cool things in public and waiting for them to find you. Only happens occasionally of course so it has to be something you’re just doing anyways…. Sun, dunno how your work goes, but could you code on a laptop in a coffee shop sometimes? Get work done, new environments. Never know what bird might flit in while you’re there wearing a self-satisfied smirk for fixing a tricky problem. Damn, I should probably get myself a laptop when I think about it. There’s no reason I’m not already… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Liz, you could well be right re: Dutchman’s wife. It’s hard to say over the Internet of course. And if you are, I’m not sure what could be done unless there’s some simple obvious thing like hbc fucking things up. Hormonal issues/depression/anxiety tend to be complex and multi factorial issues. Resolving them takes a lot of resources and initiative. And I suspect she sees this as mostly due to Dutchman ‘not being supportive’ rather than her own pathology. Try to convince her otherwise. Try to find a marriage counselor that will tell her otherwise. Try to find a physician who… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Forge,

I’m trying to figure out how to contribute to the guys here. I don’t go to clubs and bars, so I can’t offer specifics in that area. But there are chicks all over the place and I want to encourage guys to approach any and everywhere.

I feel the frustration out in the world and I always like to remind everyone that these are girls. We are the masters of the world and they are…our…helpmates, under ideal conditions.

A Definite Beta Guy
A Definite Beta Guy
5 years ago

Scrib, No need to feel shy about the business talk. I read that more than the FR stuff, which I don’t really follow at all at this point. Probably should just to build a little more social proof and a soft sense of dread with the wife, but that just doesn’t tickle my hind brain anymore. Big businesses take forever to pivot. Mostly just the nature of the game. There’s a lot of people with veto power and there’s a big need to forage consensus. And that’s usually a good idea. Most companies are effective cash cows and just need… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Forge I really don’t feel there’s a need for a real FR for last night. It was shit, case closed. Both it and the night before every woman was late 30s and up and not very attractive, so I just didn’t particularly care for any of what I was seeing. I don’t think it’s a “too much porn” thing either; I have very reasonable standards. My ex was what I would consider a solid HB7, and I really dug her. Most of my friends pretty much agree, with some saying she’s a bit hotter than that. I would TOTALLY be… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ Sun I feel you on the dry spell. —– “I need a real win once or twice to feel like a damn thing has changed for the better. It’s entirely possible I’m just a shithead that can’t make this stuff work until that happens, ya know?” —– I feel every bit of that. Great post by the way. Your descriptions of what you’re feeling and why are perfect. I feel like I can relate to every bit of that. Every time shit blows up with the girl I’ve been seeing, I go into a strong panic. Deprivation doesn’t just… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

Nothing is worth destroying myself over. Which includes losing sleep, not taking care of myself, etc. I feel Sun on the bubbly young thing too. It’s natural to want that. I’ve never experienced that even ONCE. That can feel pretty discouraging. Letting go of the past is so important. Just let it go. What weighs us down is the memories. Memories of deprivation, failure, shame, humiliation, anger, etc., whatever it is. Even me saying that right now: “I’ve never experienced that even ONCE.” Translation: my focus is on deprivation. And guess what I’ll get more of? Bubbly young feminine energy… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

It’s no wonder so many of us here are fighting our internals. The entire world has conspired to train us to be insufficient men. We have had our masculinity shamed and denigrated and suppressed for decades. We’ve been told to be “good men” and to shame our own sexual agency in the service of female sexual agency. One cannot be soaked in this non-stop and not be deeply affected by it. We have been made soft by this world and tolerant of our weakness and filled with self-loathing. We have been screamed at that we are not better than anyone… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

This weekend I actually got to witness the subject of Rollo’s original post in action at a social event for the kids. This chick who is an acquaintance of my wife’s who has flirted with me a few times before was there with her kids, and without her husband (who has big medical problems). She’s about the same age and SMV as my wife. We get there and I see she’s all done up. Nice boots, tight jeans, hair and makeup all done and looking good, so I figured she was ovulating. Anyway wife, ovulating chick (OC) and two other… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch, that’s great, man.

Dread (and fucking) are worth 1,000 logical words you could think of in an argument with your wife. Keep that up.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@newly Yeah it was pretty cool and I recognized the dynamic immediately, which made it fun. Last night she launched into a barrage of shit tests about how I’m acting different and actually asked me if I was reading a guide or something. She asked me whether that was the case like four times lol. I laughed at it or brushed it off to give the impression that OF COURSE that’s not what I’m doing. I did fuck up though, in that I stayed in the conversation for way too long when I should have just gone to bed. She… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

Anyone else having problems with the comments lately? After I clicked “post comment” on those last two posts, the browser redirected me to the bottom of the previous page.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Dutchman

“Yeah it was pretty cool and I recognized the dynamic immediately”

This^^^^. Next time when your wife throws the go fetch test at you… Just tell her “their fine” without any eye contact and continue to chat with the OC. All the women will register the subcoms on that one. If she persists with questions just tell her “you go” like she was a crazy person.

Gold.

This is the time for you to start to ACT.

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Dutchman
This proves that you are still a man in demand and your wife’s hind brain is still functioning normally.Were you able to cap this with a romp and put her gray matter to rest? there is still hope.
My wife got a room last night,today and tomorow because of the snow she doesn’t want to miss any work.So she sexed me up good before she left yesterday,just to keep me under her thumb.Like the old saying take it easy or however you can get it.Oh wucking fell.Joke em if they can’t take a fuck.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@SJF “My comments @ 9:06 am: I just realized I need to re-iterate this to Dutchman. You are trying to hard and your efforts are going nowhere. You need some space. You need a different perspective. You need to get out of the fucking house and dis-engage a bit.” Don’t I know it! I was thinking about this yesterday and trying to come up with some places I actually want to go, as opposed to just popping out and LOOKING for something to do. “Live With an Open Heart Even If It Hurts Ch. 2 Closing down in the midst… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@stuffinbox

“This proves that you are still a man in demand and your wife’s hind brain is still functioning normally.Were you able to cap this with a romp and put her gray matter to rest? ”

Sadly, no. But I didn’t even try to initiate either. Dumb.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@softek “In a way, you SHOULD be able to tell when your wife is angry/upset/etc. without her saying anything, and help her out. ” I’ve been doing this for several months and it really hasn’t gotten me anywhere but further down in the hole. I’ve been TOO helpful and TOO sympathetic. “What about your wife’s behavior displeases YOU? What is intolerable to YOU? What is acceptable to you, and what is unacceptable to YOU? ” Lack of sex and especially lack of DESIRE sex. It’s also INCREDIBLY grating when she talks to me like I’m the dumb ass husband in… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

YaReally, Sentient, HABD, Forge, Scray et al Short final FR from Blitz Week, followed by comments on some FRs. Saturday night out. Fairly grungy rock bar with a liberal door policy. So lots of guys, but no shortage of girls either, can’t really complain on that. Right volume to talk too, and good wings, so no excuses really. Oh and I’m progressively getting grungier in my clothing..I just wore an old t-shirt and jeans and a couple of days stubble and it Did Not Matter. Fairly disappointing in terms of results. Usual sort of thing..I opened a few sets, and… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

Anyone else having problems with the comments lately? After I clicked “post comment” on those last two posts, the browser redirected me to the bottom of the previous page.

Known WordPress bug. It’s been that way a while unfortunately.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

” It’s also INCREDIBLY grating when she talks to me like I’m the dumb ass husband in a fucking commercial and she’s the sensible Wife Who Knows Best.” Don’t let her talk to you like that. Your not her 16 year old kid, you’re a man that deserves some respect. I know some guys here say to just laugh it off, and just be unemotional. I disagree. I guess you could agree and amplify, that might work… IMO, that’s too far off base to agree and amplify. I would pull her aside look into her eyes and in a calm/serious… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@andy @dutchman ” I would pull her aside look into her eyes and in a calm/serious tone tell her that you’re a fucking man and you’re not going to put up with her disrespect anymore and that she’s lucky to have you. Or something similar to that. It’s all true.” In a relationship reset sometimes you need to drop a bomb or two to get her attention. A&A is always good in general, but a few bombs go far… “we are going to get a divorce” said in a matter of fact tone. Did this at the start of my… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@dutchman

“Last night she launched into a barrage of shit tests about how I’m acting different and actually asked me if I was reading a guide or something. She asked me whether that was the case like four times lol. I laughed at it or brushed it off to give the impression that OF COURSE that’s not what I’m doing. ”

When she does this just get wistful and tell her you are reevaluating a lot of things. Then break contact… no details… move on.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@Sentient

“When she does this just get wistful and tell her you are reevaluating a lot of things. Then break contact… no details… move on.”

Good shit. Will do.

mersonia
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong “I’m trying not to give up, but it has been asserted to me by a lot of folks that Dallas is just a bad hunting ground for singles, particularly if you’re male. It’s obvious that getting out of here should be high priority, but that doesn’t alleviate the need to get laid in the meantime ya know? I figure if Dallas really is that bad as a beginner (and it very well might be), then elsewhere I might actually find I’m pretty good at this. ” Dallas is a holy grail for bitches my child. Shitload of bitches… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Dutchman Sadly no I feel ya man.After 35 years of fillet mignon the novelty of a hamburger starts to look tasty,and make no mistake OC is hamburger.Sometimes with the wife sex is like another burden of performance where I have to take on the role of gigelo to make it happen.Still the best option for me I mean why get cut in half for a burger and the steak’s not that bad. @Sun Yeah back in my tomcat days you lucky bastard my wing and I would do the fat girls.Fat women need good lovin too and they changed our… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@mersonia @sun

The Big D… man I was also surprised to hear your complaint about Dallas. Not been there in 10 years, but used to be there regularly (pre game however)…. Really such a huge concentration of 7+ women there in my experience. I can’t beleive it has changed so much, other guys I know at CH are always raving abut the quality of girls in Dallas.

where are you hanging out?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Softek, ScribblerG and Sun Wukong You guys are killing me. I’m not a licenced psychotherapist. I don’t know what depression really feels like. Or self-loathing. So this is only my opinion. Guy to guy talk. (And I’m pushing my edge in doing so). So if I’m being a dick about this let me know. It’s time to let your troubled past behind. Yes, it was horrible in the past. You guys were mistreated horribly as males. We get it. You guys are nowhere near as defective as you plead in your cases. You guys are great guys with great skills… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@ Dutchman “These two are THE hardest things on that list for me. For my entire life, my perspective on this has been “Open up? What the fuck for? That’s how you get taken advantage of/burned/made uncomfortable/whatever.” No you silly Dutchman. It is not opening up to others and telling them your frailties. It is about opening up your self to yourself instead of closing down. Imaging yourself with top notch masculine tactical virtues. You, the warrior, with strength, courage, mastery and honor (honor among other men, that is). Not weakness, lack of strength in the face of pain or… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch: “Last night she launched into a barrage of shit tests about how I’m acting different and actually asked me if I was reading a guide or something.”

Dutch Response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoGweOFqapU

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch, these two songs are my songs right now. I don’t embrace them in a butthurt way though, but i do so with a smile knowing that I’ll be alright regardless of the outcome of our marriage. Freedom of outcome.

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