Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

and a Friday humor

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“(From 25 years on in the marriage, 27 in relationship)” “Took 2 years to get things where I wanted…” You? Me too. Exact same timing as me. “In the beginning of turning things around after many years of neglect, you are completely invisible to your wife… she cannot see your frame, she only thinks about hers… It takes months before you even register at all. Then there will be long months of intense conflict as she seesaws between your frame and hers… two steps forward one back kind of stuff…” Same exact experience I had. Thanks for that part of… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“It is helpful to know these things when you guys started commenting for frame of reference. (Scray? ”

How have you not read the archive? It’s an f’n gold mine man. Perfectly complementary to Rollo’s stuff. And just as valuable.

http://www.yareallyarchive.com/scray/2016/1/

Shiva
Shiva
5 years ago

“Yeah, you nailed it. I am definitely too invested in the outcome.”
Sample of trying red pill tactics and understanding for accomplishing blue pill idealism.
Drop the idealism, you will have a ZFG attitude.

“One thing I always run into with this is that she ALWAYS calls me out … I usually fall back into her frame.”

1. She’s doing what comes to her naturally. Its in her biology.
2. whats your frame ? Are you comfortable in your own skin?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“How have you not read the archive?”

I don’t read much.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@SJF I read the parts of that book you recommended. Dude, that shit hit close to home. I think she’s in the “putting him to work” stage and moving towards “female evolutionary selfishness.” I always get the sense that she is trying to mold me more. It’s still a punch in the gut that I’m being manipulated at all though. Like I never thought that THIS chick would do that lol (said 10 million other dudes). I also have a lot of self limiting beliefs. She has shamed the FUCK out of me successfully in some very subtle ways that… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

lol. I was kind of shocked.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch, Dude! Slap yourself in the face right now and do pushups until you can’t do any more. Take out all those years of blue pill living and frustration right now, and then get busy with your frame building!

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Dutchman January 29th, 2016 at 11:52 am Umm, thanks? Really, that awareness is one of the keys to solving the equation. Now, start working your way through the stages of denial, anger, bargaining and depression on the way to acceptance. Then you can start making some progress. You can do it. The one reason me an Sentient mentioned the time factor is to not get angry and lash back all at once. And don’t be a dick to your wife. Be indifferent (that will show her you mean business). She will have power over you if you are angry and… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Dutch,

Take up home-made soap making. And be careful with the lye. (if you can obtain some. Last time I checked you have to be vetted as not being a meth cooker to get the pure stuff). And don’t use aluminum pots.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

“Start cutting out on the family a bit more. Go to a bar and drink club soda for an hour in the evening. Perhaps go there and read.”

My head is so fucked up that my first instinct when I read that is to go “ME? go to a BAR? Well I just CAN’T do THAT”

Fuck…

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch, I’ve been reading the red piss stuff for about 3 years, and not until a few random comments here about ego and my sense of respect did I finally reach true freedom that that Fight Club scene represents. For the last month and a half or so, I can say I am free – even if my marriage doesn’t work out. You will get there too. It’s Friday, man. Do that club soda! Run or do pushups until you drop! Walk through the house naked! Do whatever the fuck you want to do (something, anything) to reach freedom. And… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch, damn lol, I meant red PILL, not piss.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Take out all those years of blue pill living and frustration right now, and then get busy with your frame building!”

The pushups will do, but I recommend a heavy bag.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Yeah – you will grieve the relationship you had… Just let it go… it will never be the same.

“For the last month and a half or so, I can say I am free ” and Newly goes ALL IN on Newly….! welcome, welcome…

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

“@Dutch, I’ve been reading the red piss stuff for about 3 years, and not until a few random comments here about ego and my sense of respect did ”

Yeah, I’ve been reading this stuff for a long time. I think I started reading CH like 4 years ago. It’s important to realize that just READING isn’t enough.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@newlyaloof

Do not take the red piss.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

You just have to watch this. Stop whatever else you are doing and watch this now.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIWP9qFq2no&w=560&h=315%5D

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@Scrib

LOLOLOLOL at “you’ve got cum dripping out of your mouth” “IT’S NOT CUM! IT’S SPIT!”

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

The journey… he he he

I remember when Scray started posting at CH… losing weight, working out and stuff… dancing monky…

Scray on November 8, 2012 at 5:39 pm
I’m getting into a space where it’s starting to feel hopeless. I recently started sarging, and my approach count is still low—a solid 30….but, as anyone can guess, the success rate thus far is zero.

http://yareallyarchive.com/2012/11/#comment-heartiste-384695

Look at how far he has come in 2 years… TWO years… just two years of hard work.

Good stuff Scray.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Dutchman “She has shamed the FUCK out of me successfully in some very subtle ways that are making it hard for me to even WANT to be in my own frame in the moment. ” you know…she’s got a ton of help = FI… and in the moment…there is only you… But… neo: what are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge bullets? morpheus: no, neo. i’m trying to tell you that when you are ready, you won’t have to. you know… i joke around about it, but i didn’t just pick that star trek clip out of… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@scribblerg

Meanwhile, Japan’s collapse starts to get real.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago
Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

More bullshit tonight… I’ll update later.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

SJF @ Dutchman Let me tell you that I feel for you. It’s hard and it takes time to undo years of bad habits. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Practice. Again I point to Biology of Desire and the idea of neuroplasticity. Bad habits dealing with women are actual neural pathways, carved perhaps by many small incidents, a few big ones, whatever. The impulse to cave in, to take crap “for the sake of household peace”, etc. is there, suppressing it won’t work but redirecting will work. Script out a couple of the common forms… Read more »

SJF, dogging Dutchman
SJF, dogging Dutchman
5 years ago

@Dutchman “Start cutting out on the family a bit more. Go to a bar and drink club soda for an hour in the evening. Perhaps go there and read.” My head is so fucked up that my first instinct when I read that is to go “ME? go to a BAR? Well I just CAN’T do THAT” Fuck… Where did you get that Fear-of-Club-Soda thing? You should get over that. “Yeah, I’ve been reading this stuff for a long time. I think I started reading CH like 4 years ago. It’s important to realize that just READING isn’t enough.” “Like… Read more »

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

@Newlyaloof: “Personally, when my wife tries this shit, I do the following:

Wife: “You’re being X. You didn’t do Y. Let’s talk about Z.”
You: ((raise my hand as if I had a remote in it and push a button and say) “Mute!” (then walk away with a smirk).”

Brilliant!!

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Hey, Dutchman, how old is the youngest child? I”m asking because it’s pretty well established that when the youngest is 3 to 4 years old, women tend to get restless.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Dutchman
“Yeah, I’ve been reading this stuff for a long time. I think I started reading CH like 4 years ago. It’s important to realize that just READING isn’t enough.”

“I started reading how to ride a bicycle like 4 years ago…”

To modify my own behavior I try to pick “easy win” changes than can be done every day.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Anonymous Reader @Dutchman Dutch, While you are sipping club soda, google search for multiple articles regarding Marc Lewis’ Biology of desire on the internet, or better yet read his book. What you have (blue pill addiction, a behavior) requires you to have multiple mindset work-arounds (dopamine inputs) to overcome the rut your have dug. I mentioned this offline to a couple other commenters, when I stopped drinking for 3 1/3 months last year–to moderate–I knew that extinction bursts would barrage me. And I was prepared for that, I count nine other things that I did during that time to belay… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“To modify my own behavior I try to pick “easy win” changes than can be done every day.”

“Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing.” ~ Dr. Harriet Braiker

http://newayscenter.com/2015/04/29/focus-on-competence-not-perfection-when-striving-for-excellence/

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

“Again I point to Biology of Desire and the idea of neuroplasticity. Bad habits dealing with women are actual neural pathways, carved perhaps by many small incidents, a few big ones, whatever. The impulse to cave in, to take crap “for the sake of household peace”, etc. is there, suppressing it won’t work but redirecting will work.” Good call. Hadn’t thought of it in those terms but that’s sorta why I advocate doing new shit outside of current patterns of home and relationship till something functional sticks. You don’t negate habits, you replace them. @Andy ‘“Second, she’s deliberately trying to… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

If Dutch were to go to one source, that is one person that publishes a book and/or website, for prescriptive guidance on what he needs to do, who is it? Certainly Rollo provides descriptive postings and books about what is going on, but who is telling what needs to be done?

funoldguy
funoldguy
5 years ago

A little distance…a little time. This is the retreat we can use to marshall our troops for the next siege of the castle. Scrib brought it up some threads back and I ran with it. He called it Monk Mode. Useful. (and many thanks Scrib!) It’s about making time to redirect. I mentioned The Talent Code upthread and it fits nicely with Bio of Desire. Using the Marc Lewis information to develop a new program has done wonders for me. My specifics do not fit the issues at hand (so not elaborated) but my success at changing my old programming… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Forge the Sky January 29th, 2016 at 5:56 pm You are wise beyond your years. @redlight It cannot be one. No one does prescriptive married red pill well. He has to write his own script. Rollo is a fucking genius for not being prescriptive for that reason. Thing is, he needs to stick with fundamentals and just work on them for 18 months. He already has a rough draft, he just needs to work it. Truth is, he has to actually swallow and metabolize the red pill first. And he has to get through the Kubler-Ross stages. (He’s still in… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Forge I get what you’re saying, and you make good points, but I guess I disagree on the implementation. I would say start enforcing your boundaries immediately, but loosen up your response. Like in your dress example. She comes out in the blue dress. Why not: “that one looks fine, but I like the red dress better.” If she comes back with “I like this one better.” and get’s ready to leave Then calmly tell her that she’s overstepping her bounds. If she’s still a bitch after that then leave the house or something. You don’t have to emotionally react… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“She needs to know she crossed a line.”

Andy, she knows it already without him pointing it out. And she loves it. She owns frame and doesn’t want to give it up.

Forge is right, he needs to have hand and frame and then be able to tell her stuff and be dominant. And not until he has it or she will laugh at him telling her she “crossed a line”.

You are operating from your own frame of reference and you do have hand. He doesn’t.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Andy, she knows it already without him pointing it out. And she loves it”

Disagree again. She knows it and she HATES it. She’s begging for boundaries. Just like a kid. Constantly testing the boundaries. She wants him to TELL her she crossed the line. Good day gentlemen. I said GOOD DAY!

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

Tonight she tells me that she contemplates suicide or at the very least, often wishes she doesn’t exist. This came after her giving me shit ALL NIGHT and me holding my frame, more or less, throughout.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Just like a kid. Constantly testing the boundaries.”

No.

She is acting like his fucking mother. She is setting the boundaries.
Because he abdicated his role as the dominant masculine male a while ago. And she filled the void. And she is not wanting to give up the role.

It takes a particular attitude toward, or way of regarding something–a point of view–to see this.

She wants him to TELL will be pissed as hell if he tells her she crossed the line.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Tonight she tells me that she contemplates suicide or at the very least, often wishes she doesn’t exist. This came after her giving me shit ALL NIGHT and me holding my frame, more or less, throughout.” No offense man, but you are not at liberty to hold absolute frame throughout with your skill-set. And you need to get up a little higher on the mastery level in order to hold absolute frame. But it is good that you held frame. And that she is not indifferent. That would suck. She is angry that you held frame. She has so much… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Just started reading Antifragile by Taleeb on my Kindle. Not everyone will find the style pleasant to read, he’s kind of elliptical the way he meanders around topics, but I recall his observations back in 2006 about the housing bubble that were right on point.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Dutchman I’d be more inclined to listen to SJF than Andy in your situation; by his own account he was in the position of having abdicated frame and knows the process of getting back in the game better. As for the suicide remarks, I know it sounds calloused but as a guy who struggles with depression and suicidal thoughts I can tell you that if she’s talking about it she’ll most likely never do shit. If she does, it’ll most likely be ineffective. The times when I’ve truly considered doing it, nobody heard a thing. I’d act like life was… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Not everyone will find the style pleasant to read, he’s kind of elliptical the way he meanders around topics”

Yep. He starts out enigmatic, mysterious, unreadable, inexplicable, un-explainable, incomprehensible, impenetrable, unfathomable, unknowable
and then turns into red-pill Stoic all the way home.

Put some earbuds in and listen to Ramble On by Led Zeppelin while you are at it.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I totally cosign Mr. Wukong, except for only one sentence. “She feels unable to shoulder the burden pissed that you made her shoulder the burden of taking maculine control of the family, we’re supposed to handle that Dutchman was supposed to handle all along (like an oak tree in her storm to hold on to when her emotions buffeted her), which is fine sucks for her in the past and you in the future. But you, Dutch, are fine in knowing what you need to do in red pill knowledge going forward. ” Game calibration means knowing your skills and… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Anonymous Reader ““I started reading how to ride a bicycle like 4 years ago…” To modify my own behavior I try to pick “easy win” changes than can be done every day” +1…he needs to stop reading and start doing…there is NO replacing in-field experience…ESPECIALLY within LTR/marriage game…but it’s hard to fight the FI… @redlight “If Dutch were to go to one source, that is one person that publishes a book and/or website, for prescriptive guidance on what he needs to do, who is it? ” nobody…it can’t be done…Rollo does the best bc he doesn’t try to do this…the… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

You are pretty inscrutable Mr. Bad Day good luck guy. But I swear, only because of your sentence and paragraph structure (not that there is anything wrong with it, it’s just, well inscrutable.) But great dialectic. And great info. “if Dutchman could take YaReally and transplant him into Dutch’s head, and then YaReally goes about living Dutch’s life, how long would it take for him to get ‘hand’? and be able to keep it?…and what would the difference be?” False premise. Rollo or YaReally aren’t fucking-stupid-enough to not enter the relationship with the proper frame, maintain it and not abdicate… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Dutchman ok, i’m sorry to hear that it’s working out like this, but it’s time for you to step up your game…it WILL be uncomfortable for you (bc it WILL be SO far outside your comfort zone you will probably feel like puking…not kidding on this…i ‘popped’ twice in the first couple of months from the stress…), but you’re just going to have to suck it up… “Tonight she tells me that she contemplates suicide or at the very least, often wishes she doesn’t exist.” this is most likely just a cry for help…she NEEDS you to provide a frame… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@SJF “if Dutchman could take YaReally and transplant him into Dutch’s head, and then YaReally goes about living Dutch’s life, how long would it take for him to get ‘hand’? and be able to keep it?…and what would the difference be?” it’s late and i probably could have worded the idea better, which is… what would happen if Dutch was suddenly transformed into having YaReally or Rollo’s skill set, but just in his current situ?…how long would it take for him to transform/turn around his marriage? “It is our own damn fault that no one told us this shit before.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

Tonight’s FR wherein I find no chicks worth a shit so I just play merciless Asshole Game for my own amusement: Went to the bar tonight and nothing hot showed up but so much female drama tried to drop in my lap. So much. And if I were Blue Pill I would have tried to console them, but I just didn’t care. I didn’t want to give them time for no benefit, because work has been insanely busy lately. My weekends need to be spent enjoying myself, not consoling some chick I don’t know in her problems. So some dude… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

Side note: My hype up tonight on the way was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbyuatxrU_c

I know Nu Disco is generally shallow bullshit dance music, but for some reason the lyrics strike me as the Alpha Attitude distilled. Plus I’m kinda gay for Nu Disco. Sue me. Assholes.

unilantern
5 years ago

“A woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her.”

No, its an indication of her insecurity. Lesbians do the same thing, only to a worse degree and they cant reproduce. Ive seen women fight over the worst type of men imaginable.

Its possible though any pheromone based competition system among women is getting in the way of womens progress in terms of equality. This competition could cause women to make sexist decisions against other women. I personally dont care what its doing in the reproductive arena.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutchman

Dutchman’s Wife: “I’m gonna kill myself.”
Dutchman’s RP Friends: “Hold Dutchman! Hold! …”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDVuQi4gdtk

Someone mentioned an extinction burst before women cave to a man’s reasserted frame. No better demonstration of an extinction burst than a woman threatening to extinct herself.

Hold the line Dutch. Hold the line.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

YaReally HABD Sentient Scribblerg Forge Sun Wukong and all the other guys Double FR today but I’ll keep it brief(ish). Also replying separately to comments on my last FR Second Date with HB7.5 29 year old redhead ——————————————– Two events in one day: I met up with the cute HB7-7.5 29 year old redhead from my first FR last week. As predicted by HABD, there was push back about coming right to my place – she said “I have a naughty mind [in relation to me suggesting movies at home] so Let’s meet for tea first [afternoon time] and then… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Calum, good work, man! @Dutch, P.S. As you know, my wife went from saying on the voice recorder I hid that if not for the kids, she’d leave my fuckin’ ass. Two month’s later, last night, she’s asking where we’re going to celebrate our upcoming wedding anniversary. Bitches be crazy/BP/chaotic/outrageous/i.e., functioning as programmed. Take it all in stride and have fun. I know it’s difficult to weather the storm because my blue pill ego whispers to have that anniversary dinner and hit play on that voice recording of her just to “get her back.” That won’t happen. Ego is no… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

Re my successful Tinder date – thanks a lot guys, the comments and support mean a lot. UPDATE: I now have a text from her (in response to me thanking her for a great evening and saying I’ll see her soon): “Hey angel-face..I’m not into hookups..I’m not that kind of girl..thank you for an interesting night”. So the ASD/biological clock/husband hunt has kicked her back on course – but it was still a great experience in how I had two very similar 38 year olds and one I spiked her attraction hard enough and the other I didn’t.. Striver: Yup,… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

Err..my previous post should say “Scray” of course, not “Scary” lol.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

It’ll probably take me a while to get all of this typed out, so I’m going to break it down into a few different posts. Here’s what happened. She was in the kitchen when I came home and when I saw her, she immediately gave me a dirty look (which she later denied doing) and didn’t say anything to me. I went and put my shit away and sat down in the living room and started talking with the kids. After about five minutes, she got mad about us being too loud or something (due to the baby being asleep)… Read more »

Arne
Arne
5 years ago

This evpsych stuff is still around? My buddy owes me $500 if evpsych is still taught in American universities in 2020. Five years away!! For the sake of science I hope it’s gone by then, but winning bets is always fun

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Dutch, @5:43 PST Disclaimer: My opinion only.For the sake of discussion I am not at master level. Probably between technician/artist. In regards to your second paragraph. Although you some men here may say “fuck her” and keep pushing on, realize this is her having a bad day. You should pick up on this and not push through her bad mood. You should avoid. She’s a grown woman and can take care of her bad mood. If you were a master alpha at game and she admired and respected you and fucked your brains out at all times, this is where… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“what would happen if Dutch was suddenly transformed into having YaReally or Rollo’s skill set, but just in his current situ?…how long would it take for him to transform/turn around his marriage?”

Couple hours. Just got to show her the O-face. You guys know what I’m talking about. OOHhh, OOHHH… Lol.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@ Andy

That is all cute and trite of you to virtue signal here. But how should Dutch operate with his situation report. How would you operate here in his 5:43 PST post? How would Rollo or YaReally behave in this situation (in Dutch’s shoes in his kitchen)?

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@SJF “She’s feeling bad and this state she’s in made you plow ahead and push the red button (Red = Draining Energy = Stop It). I know the feeling your wife was having. Sometimes I come home, having put a lot of psychic energy into work and there are two loud TV’s in the kitchen and nearby living room blaring and I need some peace and quiet to decompress. This might have been a time not to push her, but relieve her of her stress, have her go in a quiet room to decompress and you take care of the… Read more »

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

Part 2 Somehow the subject got changed off of marriage counseling after she answered my question. I don’t remember exactly what we were talking about but after a few minutes I was smirking at her. Her: You should see the looking on your face right now. Me: You look cute, what can I say. Her: (turns around) Me: (grabs her around the waste) I can’t help myself, I like those earrings Her: (freak the FUCK out and pulls away) I can’t BELIEVE you just did that!!!! OMG!! Don’t EVER do that again. How could you possibly think that is okay… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“The problem is that she has bad days like this EVERY OTHER DAY. She is ALWAYS having panic attacks and needs to go hide alone in the bedroom or something. Sometimes she’ll just sit on the floor in the kitchen rocking back and forth. She’s taken medication for it, but it’s been going on for a few months.” Fair enough Dutch. Assuming both of you want to keep the marriage for the kids (or for other reasons). How bout each of you start the day with contemplating for 15 to 20 minutes “What am I going to do today to… Read more »

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
5 years ago

RealTalk, you’re being foolish if you think lower SMV women will just shut up and fissures won’t creep in. If anything, it’s entirely unnatural for men to give relationships to women beneath them on a silver platter. Just watch all the women in relationships such as the ones you mention actively sabotage sais relationships with their insecurities. I’ll rather deal with a hottie’s shit tests than a futtie’s insecurities. Not only is it easier, more fun, but everything is better with cute girls, from the sex to their personalities. Ugly women are poisonous.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“I reply that I’ve been helping her out for months to try to get her past these anxiety problems she’s having.”…. …..Her: (incredulous look) You think YOU’RE stressed? Do you think about suicide EVERY DAY? Every day I wake up and thing “Fuck, I woke up again.” Keep in mind that she doesn’t care how hard you are working. If I were your buddy IRL, I know how hard you are working, how stressed you are, how much you are not getting laid. I would care about you. But it is not in her job description (right now) to care… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“She is ALWAYS having panic attacks and needs to go hide alone in the bedroom or something. Sometimes she’ll just sit on the floor in the kitchen rocking back and forth.” She is already emotionally gone from the marriage, but physically trapped in it. Very likely amplified by not being able to implement her Plan B, the call for counselling being her first overt move in that direction. “She’s taken medication for it, but it’s been going on for a few months.” You cannot “fix” psychological torture with “medicine.” It isn’t an illness. All you can do is drug it… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ Dutch Reading through your posts, I just had this thought. It isn’t polished yet, but maybe it could give you a different perspective in your situation: In a way, you SHOULD be able to tell when your wife is angry/upset/etc. without her saying anything, and help her out. How do you know? By how she’s treating you, and how you feel about it. You have to go by how YOU KNOW YOU FEEL in response to her behaviors, instead of trying to guess what she feels and shaping your behaviors around that. That ties into the next point: what… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

Going to move away from Dutchie’s challenges for a minute to address this whole KJ thing that’s been going on with fighting & self defense. @Blax- I know where you’re coming from. To all the other “don’t fight” “walk away” guys- of COURSE you should walk away from stupid shit! Of COURSE you should deescalate. But then you get into “it’s your own fault if you can’t evaluate the situation for danger” stuff, and “I use my ninja powers to sense bad situations and stay out of them” C’mon guys!? Yes, there are situations that are obviously bad news. And… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Culum Awesome FR’s man, I’m gonna be able to go on a bit of a tear hopefully in a few weeks and I have to tell you your efforts are inspiring to me. I hope to make as good use of my time as you are. I don’t have much to add wrt specific techniques; you’re pushing your boundaries, trying new things, absorbing and implementing advice, and it’s paying off. It does seem like your cold approach game is a bit weak yet comparatively. With your skills you should be at least getting solid numbers if not k-close or f-close… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Sun “Tonight’s FR wherein I find no chicks worth a shit so I just play merciless Asshole Game for my own amusement: “ ‘“So, you want me to listen to you but you start off trying to shame me about your level of education, then about your job, then about the fact that I don’t make some random chick’s problems MY problems, without knowing a thing about me or my job or my disposition or the week I’ve been through. I’m looking around this room for a fuck to give and just not seeing any.”’ Delivered. “Cue the next 45… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

@FtS

State breaks, especially wacky ones, can produce amazing results.

Seen it happen too.

Funnily enough, they can also defuse tense situations.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Culum “In short it was a lot of fun (as HABD says I just enjoy hanging out with her anyway) ” did you miss the part about bang FIRST, hang out later?…lol “she said “I have a naughty mind [in relation to me suggesting movies at home] so Let’s meet for tea first [afternoon time] and then we’ll see” ” and did you see this in real time? and agreed to it anyway?…lol…my prediction at this point would be no bang…(bc she’s a ‘good girl’…lol)…at this point you are negotiating ‘desire’… hb7.5: “and then she said “I don’t go to… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“I straight up asked her if she wanted a divorce and she said “If our marriage is going to be this miserable, I don’t want to stay in it but I don’t want a divorce either.”

how old is the baby? Might be a post partum thing. Or if she’s nursing all night long, or weaning… That might explain it. Did she go through this with the other kids?

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
5 years ago

Arne, given that besides gender and ethnic studies still being taught, a lot of other unscientific foolishness such as Boasian anthropology, Freudian concepts of psychology, standard social science model sociology are still being taught, I wouldn’t bet on the more scientific evolutionary psychology being discarded. You can take their historical explanations as just so stories(aka most of social science, when it doesn’t trot out empirically disprovable things for ideological reasons), but the trends they do note in present humanity are actually real and empirically testable so that part of it is here to stay until a better predictive method for… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Arne

Gimme a framework that predicts human behavior better or go suck an entire bag of steaming hot dicks. I need shit I can work with, and all haters like you can do is take potshots at the best tool I’ve found for the job without presenting a better one.

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having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Rollo (and everybody else, too) “Couple of hours? Where’s the respect? He’d already be conferring with his lawyer.” i have mad respect for both you and YaReally, (and i actually don’t think he would bail that fast…bc he would probably use that opportunity to gather more in-field experience…lol) but given the reaction, i should have factored in the ‘outside my comfort zone’ part of this hypo…all you guys SEEM to be shying away from this idea and making jokes (or you just don’t have time to get into it, which i completely understand), but it really is an important concept… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong

nice FR…

props on trying to free another mind…

good luck!

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

To accept evolution is to inherently accept the evolutionary basis of psychology. A dolphin does not have the psychology of a bee because it could not survive its environment if it did.

Yes, one has to be careful about the sociology rot setting in and building a house of Just So Stories cards, but to discard evo-psych is to discard biology.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@SJF Disclaimer: My opinion only. For the sake of discussion I am just some goof on the interwebs…pay NO attention to what i write…lol… i’m just poking you bc i know your heart’s in the right place…BUT…the FI is cunning…and pervasive… “You should pick up on this and not push through her bad mood. You should avoid. ” = supplicate… “She’s a grown woman and can take care of her bad mood.” – no… she can’t…she’s a girl…she reacts to her environment…the fact that he is creating a shitty environment for her to react within IS the problem… “If you… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@HABD what if Dutch was in his exact same place and wanted the exact same things he wants now = save his marriage, have a happy compliant wife, happy respectful kids, etc… AND he had the opportunity to hire YaReally or Rollo to jump into his head (ala ‘being john malkovich’) and run his interactions in the marriage/life…ie someone who would be ZFG and have a good skill set… I think what you’re running in to is that the entire REASON they wouldn’t do what he’s trying to do in his position is because of the zero fucks they give.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

her attention off me and on him.

Off him and on me, rather. Silly words. Order require do why you?

A Boy's Guide
5 years ago

Sentient: Yeah, yeah, but when did the woman in question have a virtual degree in pick up and evo psych. I learned from the best: Savoy, Heartiste, Rollo. You want me to write for women? Like Kitten Holiday? So, I’ll take all that I’ve learned and use it AGAINST MEN????? Teach women who, whoops “I accidentally divorced you” (just like the whoops, “I just accidentally fell on all those penises!” woman) how to snag their beta provider? I don’t think so. I have a very specific goal for this writing and if no one else likes it, fine. My SES… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

This is maybe the longest comment I’ve ever written, buckle up lol. HABD, re: your hypothetical I’d upgrade Andy’s assessment to a few days to really get a handle on things again, though the bang could happen in hours, sure. She needs a few days to be like ‘is this really him? Is he just faking it?’ Then she’d be all right with the world again. But getting that sort of game can’t be done overnight. @Dutchman Alright, there’s a lot coming at you here. Let’s see if anything productive pops out if we break things down bit by bit.… Read more »

A Boy's Guide
5 years ago

YaReally: I’ll be awaiting your response about the civilization you’re building. As I said, you are good at what you do, but it is equally as true that you’re a genetic dead end. “scribblerg” (you sockpuppet!) I signed my name to my original posts to make it clear who I was, so there’s no need to get hysterical. You don’t like what I have to say to you, so you imagine I have some sort of sexual interest in you. That is not the case. Very immature. You still clearly have issues with being a “good” dad, even though you… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@ having a bad day “and i’m not really trying to poke you, so i hope you don’t take it the wrong way, bc i know you’re heart is in the right spot…but you need to be able to see this stuff, too…” No need to go easy on me. You got great stuff and it is a great counterpoint to what is only my opinion. And I understand it fully. I definitely stray to purple pill (and your comments are a good check to that. this is because I never really had it that bad (in all aspects of… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Dutch,

Thought experiment.

“I was smirking at her.
Her: You should see the looking on your face right now.
Me: You look cute, what can I say.
Her: (turns around)”

What should happen next?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong Regarding your field report. Dude you want a wingman or just a guy friend for nights like that. Good luck finding a red pill one though. If I were out with you (as a red pill) you would intrigue the shit out of me. It would be fun for me to be out there with you. You have a great personality (based on talking to you at last year’s Sun Wukong roundtables). (Unfortunately I’d probably bore the shit out of you. Just ask Forge. I probably bored the shit out of him IRL). If you were out with… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

There’s an almost Zen-like contradiction in the way @Dutch is approaching him marriage and potentially recovering it … when he said not to advise him to divorce.

A Catch-22, if you will.

But that’s understandable, because Dutch is still in the process of leaving the Matrix.

Here’s the Catch-22

“It won’t be possible for you to save your marriage until you are willing to accept divorce as something you would do”

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong “YaReally or Rollo in Dutch’s head would probably file for divorce and bail because they wouldn’t have his reasons to stay around largely because of the ZFG attitude. ” that’s basically my point (although it’s presenting as ‘outside your comfort zone’…lol), but none of you guys even seemed to be intrigued by the thought experiment…lol…red pill/game is SUPPOSED to be about acting in the world (with reality-based decision making…) to get what you want, right?… Dutch WANTS to save his marriage…doesn’t matter if Rollo (or me for that matter…lol) would want to in his situ…the question was do… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Arne – Guys like you are as common as peas on the web. You seem to believe a breezy tone and assumed knowledge – when you don’t demonstrate a bit of actual knowledge – suffices. Here’s a great article by a real scientist explaining to nitwits like you why Evo Psych is a very real science and had quite a lot to offer. He makes 10 major points and cites 122 scientific papers. https://evolution-institute.org/article/on-common-criticisms-of-evolutionary-psychology/ Rollo excerpted this article in one of his essays a while back. Here’s another great piece from an evo psychologist who debunked Rebecca Watson’s imbecilic attempt… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

Oh- and to finalize my thoughts on all the fighting/self defense bloviation, let me just say that there’s a big difference between bar fights where two or more chodes duke it out for ego-driven or personal entertainment reasons, and what I call real self defense, or combat, where a guy has to successfully overcome someone who has made a decision to harm, even kill, him, and is facing a serious attack. My experience has been that for these situations there are two things that are important. 1. Training in techniques that are effective in real-life fight scenarios. but far more… Read more »

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

Dutch’s wife, just judging by my own personal experiences, sounds like she has a hormonal imbalance. When I was on the pill I was suicidal and depressed also. I was pretty much exactly like what he describes. Mike wasn’t trying “amused mastery” on me or anything like that. I don’t think that would have worked at the time. I cannot emphasize enough how different my psyche was. The difference between my personality on hormones and off was so striking that Mike asks everyone we know who is going through a hard time in marriage, “Is your wife on the pill?”… Read more »

Arne
Arne
5 years ago

Evo psych is always afraid of the opposing viewpoint. Which will always be there, until it’s debunked and thrown away like every other social science fad. Evolution? Yes. Evo-psych/pseudoscience? Not for me, thank you

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Arne

Still not seeing either refutation or alternative theories. Put up or shut up, cupcake.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I believe that the statement “Rebecca Watson’s imbecilic attempt at debunking” is a tautology.

Arne
Arne
5 years ago

It wouldn’t shock me if you were into Myers Briggs personality tests, as well as being anti-vax

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