Ovulation & Dread

ovulation_dread

I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.

Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.

As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.

For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.

Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.

I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.

Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.

I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).

Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.

I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.

If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.

The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.

[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female

partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.

The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.

Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.

This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.

That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.

[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.

Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.

There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.

I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.

I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta TellsA woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.

This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.

That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.

Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?

The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.

Passive Dread

So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?

The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.

I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.

The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.

My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.

But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?

The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.

You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.

See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Cats are not dogs!”

There ya go.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@kfg

“A 16 year old, drop out pothead looks at a rock and sees just a rock. An 80 year old engineer looks at a rock and may not see a rock at all.
What the rock “is” is highly contextual.”

“everyone lives in the same universe therefore they’re all experiencing the same environment. their interpretations (such as yours) of the same shit may differ, though.”

seems like you’re saying something i already said…

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

I feel like I need to be stoned to understand this conversation.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutchman: “I’ve been falling back into butthurtedness lately with my wife, although I haven’t EXPRESSED it to her yet. She shit tested me this morning about not helping the kids get ready for school and I didn’t get mad or anything, but I’m sure she could tell I was irritated about it.” What, some 98% of communication is non-verbal, so by you first saying you haven’t EXPRESSED it, but then say, “I’m sure she could tell I was irritated,” shows that you are all over the place. Regardless of whether you verbalize it or not, if you are feeling it,… Read more »

Th' Wolf
Th' Wolf
5 years ago

@scribbler I’m around your age. In answer to your question, I’ve found a couple of mindsets that I practice that have changed my interactions with women. I emphasize practice because everyone needs to practice to improve, no matter your initial skill level or your ultimate potential. Become a student of body language. This was the first big step for me and I always try to evaluate it in every interaction (with women AND men). I game every woman in my life 18yo to 68yo. Kinda did this when I was in college, but quit for quite a while. Started back… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Scray: “seems like you’re saying something i already said…”

I think you would be at considerable difficulty to define “rock” without making some rather sloppy assertions. Defining a rock would be considerably more difficult.

See “precision.”

@Andy: “I feel like I need to be stoned to understand this conversation.”

Quite the contrary, you need to be . . . stone sober.

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

@Dutchman

You’re a dad and a husband…act like one and help with the kids, its pretty simple.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@Sentient “Take her by the hand to the bedroom and go for it. See what happens…” I’ve tried that before and usually get nowhere. But I’ll keep trying. I think I’ve just been doing it in a really uncalibrated way. @newlyaloof “What, some 98% of communication is non-verbal, so by you first saying you haven’t EXPRESSED it, but then say, “I’m sure she could tell I was irritated,” shows that you are all over the place.” You’re not wrong about that. “Dude, try some Sage oil, seriously. I believe it has helped me relax more lately (even if it’s a… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“@SJF since he’s not a chick i want to bang, i think i’ll just treat him like a man and give him an honest chance to state whatever it is he’s trying to say clearly and concisely. like a man.” “….i’m gonna go ahead and say that AS OF RIGHT NOW, the scrayvestigation has concluded that there just isn’t any substance to what you’re trying to say.” Scray: Congratulations on being young and im·pet·u·ous. You just gave the wrong answer in the first paragraph. Game does matter among guys in a group of guys. It’s called social intelligence. Or military… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@kfg

lol

““everyone lives in the same universe therefore they’re all experiencing the same environment. their interpretations (such as yours) of the same shit may differ, though.””

interpret: “to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms” — define

“I think you would be at considerable difficulty to define “rock” without making some rather sloppy assertions. Defining a rock would be considerably more difficult.”

confirmed. restating what i already said — concisely and clearly. like a man.

who are you trying to impress?
why the act?
why the gimmick?

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@Bromeo

Thanks for the white knighting and the FI shaming lol. Much appreciated bro.

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

“If you have the free time to balance gym AND game, cool, but every night you stay in and hit the gym or are too sore/tired to go out or pass up an invite to go out so you can avoid bad food and keep your 12% bodyfat etc, you’re a night behind where your game could be at.” If it came down to practicing game or hitting the gym on any given day I would hit the gym every time. Personal health should be above all, I keep the outings for the weekends if anything. And on the whole… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@SJF “You just gave the wrong answer in the first paragraph” so he is a chick who is shit testing me? ” Or military brotherhood. It is the way of men” uh… men just care about the bottom line. if you have some good shit to say, spit it out. if you don’t, w/e. im just trying to find anything useful in what’s being said. so far, nothing. that’s why men build civilizations lol men sit around and go ‘wait, what THE FUCK are you actually saying, is it ACTUALLY useful?’ “Guys testing you for honor among men, is not… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

I smell a lecture coming.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@dutchman “Hey can you guys take a look at my post on the previous page re: wife giving me shit this morning. HABD says that it was a clear IOI/she wanted me to fuck her but like I’m having a hard time internalizing that because it didn’t feel like that AT ALL at the time lol.” anytime you get nagged, boundaries are getting pushed and pressed. the answer is always to put her in her place. you have to calibrate, of course, but you need to stand firm — you didn’t do anything wrong, and that’s how shit it is,… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . who are you trying to impress?”

When I walk away from my desktop computer, I won’t even think of anybody here at all until sitting down at my desk again reminds me that they exist.

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

@Dutch

You’re uncalibrated af, its like you read a few posts on rp and want to instantly flip a switch on your wife. When you reach where you are trying to get to, you wont need be figuring out ways to maneuver around her nagging because there wont be any to begin with.

SJF, done lecturing for now
SJF, done lecturing for now
5 years ago

Me “And just so you know I am testing you. Shit testing.”

You “you’re behaving like a woman behaves around a high value man?”

No, seeing if you are a potential pick for my post-apocalyptic fantasy team.

You’re not.

Game is more universal that obtaining easy pussy.

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

When I walk away from my desktop computer, I won’t even think of anybody here at all until sitting down at my desk again reminds me that smartphones exist

just walk away dude, don’t get in a fight

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

I don’t even know why most are assuming there were IOI’s in the negging, why would you want to even show interest and try getting in after that behaviour towards you?

Destroy the shit tests and deploy dread.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@SJF “No, seeing if you are a potential pick for my post-apocalyptic fantasy team” so you, a man, do something that women do to high value men for the purpose of building a fantasy team… sounds gay, but maybe to you it’s something about the manly brotherhood bushido honor or whatever. i’m just here trying to help. if kfg or you are something beyond KJs with weird and seemingly limiting beliefs, hey, that’s great…and when i see that i’ll stop trying to help you guys. but that’s all im doing based on what i see. i don’t have a quarrel… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

: “No, seeing if you are a potential pick for my post-apocalyptic fantasy team.”

At the moment I’m trying out Robert Mitchum, Henry Rollins and Elliott Hulse.

“Game is more universal that obtaining easy pussy.”

This. Which an older man is more likely to understand than a younger one.

@Redlight: “just walk away dude, don’t get in a fight”

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

Rollo – “If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.” Well said. I agree, and for those who do not see this, on the surface… Read more »

Thelien
Thelien
5 years ago

Liz, “Furthermore: I went on the pill for our honeymoon and immediately started getting angry at him for just about everything. I was on oral contraception for about two months before he threw the pills into the trash because they made me crazy and “we weren’t having sex anyway”. I’ve been happy and on even keel ever since I got off of them, and we get along very very well.” It must have been one of the early high-dose pills. Modern ones have as little hormones as possible to minimize side effects. In the recent years I met a boyfriend… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

“… that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding….”

Does it make sense that women will also mate guard a beta provider to prevent loosing his provisional value especially if he is a high producer?

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

NBTM:

In Soviet Russia, betas mate guard you.

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

@kfg: When I walk away from my desktop computer, I won’t even think of anybody here at all until sitting down at my desk again reminds me that they exist.
.
Likewise. You ain’t all that.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@SJB: Of course.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“It must have been one of the early high-dose pills. Modern ones have as little hormones as possible to minimize side effects. In the recent years I met a boyfriend and went on one, went off when the boyfriend left, went on again when I met the next guy, and went off when we got married. Felt no mood changes at all. I’ll probably get a prescription again after having enough kids because it seems to work just fine, and maybe they’ll invent something with even lower dose by then.” It was in the 90s, so not VERY early, but… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

“My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.” WTF !!! ??? Isn’t both a reaction to her initiative? Aren’t both a response to her behavior in a frame that she controls? Aren’t both nothing… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

“The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle. You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Scray: “so you, a man, do something that women do to high value men for the purpose of building a fantasy team…” In real life, I do it all the time among men to vet them in order to find whether I will be wasting time engaging with them. Time is a very valuable commodity. But this need for time does depend on whether a man is doing a lot of different things that require quality time in his life. And whether he works on them as if his life depended on doing them well. (A large business, 2 1/2… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@NBTM – A rare moment of appreciation wrt your first comment on pre-rejection as essentially an ego buffer for women enabled for the most part by the difference between our sex drives. Puts initial resistance and shit tests into perspective and also why women seem to enjoy resisting a bit. @All – Wow, I can’t tell how glad I am to not be the asshole in a scrap on these pages, lol @Andy – Another point of connection, this would be a lot more interesting after some 32% cosmic chronic for sure. But now that I’m not smoking much I… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . no amount of cheap used car salesmanship will over come weak insecure flabby sheepishness.”

Dude, it literally does.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Rollo – That Scandal clip is some wax on/wax off genius shit. How do I find hope again once I’ve given up? Answer: Fool myself, like I always have done. Duality is perhaps the hardest thing for Irish Catholic boys like me to live with. Idealism was beaten into me from birth. Fuck. I’d rather be idealistic and cynically resigned than practical and powerful.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I need to tie some flies and replace my wader boots before April.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@NBTM Either you are a healthy fit attractive male or you are not and no amount of cheap used car salesmanship will over come weak insecure flabby sheepishness. Quit projecting. Quit pretending women are men. Quit pretending men and women judge the opposite sex off the exact same characteristics with the exact same weights. Jesus H. The PUAs aren’t saying DON’T hit the gym, they’re saying it’s got less impact than working out and they’re right. I don’t think I’m all that strong, but my friends, family, and even guys in my martial arts class assess me as a beast.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

less impact than working out

Correction: less impact than working on Game

The Question
5 years ago

@ Rollo Tomassi

Great clip from Scandal. I sometimes get asked why I’ve consistently weight lifted for over a decade. That’s why. Some think lifting is monotonous and boring, but I’m never disappointed.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sun ” The PUAs aren’t saying DON’T hit the gym, they’re saying it’s got less impact than working out and they’re right.” what’s funny is that they ARE NOT mutually exclusive. i ought to know….after work i hit up the gym/exercise and then go out. working out is awesome before going out..provided you work out like a beast and get those endorphins into your system. and like you just said…to get the full ROI on having a good body, you still need good game to really sell it and put it out there. “and no amount of cheap used car… Read more »

The Question
5 years ago

@Rollo

As my former high school weight lifting teacher (and former stunt double for John Wayne) told me, failure is the key to getting bigger.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

It’s funny watching the guys bounce off kfg. I remember when I was just a lurker back when I’d run across his comments and just be like ‘wtf that was weird, oh well next comment’ for a month or two. Then I started to get it a bit more and now it’s no secret that I think they’re fantastic. It might be helpful to think of it like this – most of what he tries to convey are deep mindsets and perspectives rather than comprehensive explanations of didactic topics. And he understands that you can’t transfer mindset by just saying… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.

I hear the DNR is considering adopting ‘yes means yes’ policies tho. These might be my glory days.

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

@Rollo – “NBTM, again with your literalist autism. There are about 300+ comments in this thread alone disproving your tired assertions that desire, genuine desire, can be stimulated in women. You need to go back and review The Desire Dynamic post again. While it’s true that desire cannot be negotiated, you can do many things to provoke genuine desire.” Ha ha. So…. Desire cannot be “negotiated” but it can be “provoked”. Negotiated, provoked, stimulated, manipulated, manufactured, socially engineered….. Changing the word from one to another of the same basic premise does not change that basic premise. Semantic substitutions do not… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

But shit don’t believe me I’m just a fucking troll.

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

@Forge the sky:Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.
.
Now that was funny. Well done.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Rollo – Honestly? I think what happened is largely due to getting ill, having my career go sideways and then the shit with my daughter. I’m not proud to admit it, but I just got run over and couldn’t seem to get up again. In a way, the most undermining at a visceral level was becoming ill. I remember being in the hospital, in the ER, regaining consciousness with that scene I’d only ever seen in movies happening to me. Surrounded by medical staff, needles going in, machines beeping, serious, concerned intense activity. All due to my CPTSD. I’d begun… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. ”

Ha!

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

NBTM: “Desire cannot be “negotiated” but it can be “provoked”.”

There’s a mugger with an Uzi over here who would like word with you, or you can just give him all your money as a gift and prevent him from becoming a criminal.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

YaReally HABD Sentient Scribblerg Forge Sun Wukong and all the other guys Victory lap FR from my latest Tinder date – more a list of things I noticed and did well than questions really. Didn’t quite get the ASD dealt with enough to get her home but got a hand job in the parking lot so I’m calling that a win (not just because of the “happy ending” but because I just totally nailed the Game tonight and she was all over me). Like we talk about “genuine desire” – this was it and it is just insanely addictive to… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

The group negotiated a peace treaty
The group provoked a peace treaty
The group stimulated a peace treaty
The group manipulated a peace treaty
The group manufactured a peace treaty
The group socially engineered a peace treaty

It’s all the same for NBTM, just word substitution

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

http://media0.giphy.com/media/GCLlQnV7wzKLu/giphy.gif

Peee eye emmm peee

more tomorrow!

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

that was for Culum obvi

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

lol at the fr’s on here with 35+ divorced 6’s, its like using a treble hook to snag fish in a small river, no game required.

Striver
Striver
5 years ago

Culum, Congrats. I think you’re right, you made a few moves there but she was an easy fish. The one I’m with now, easy fish too. 101 level, but 101 level is more than a lot of guys know. Just don’t screw up the easy stuff. “Game” is presented here as this mystical thing sometimes, but I see the work behind it. How much time is YaReally putting in? Tons. Watching hundreds of videos, going out constantly. He can be creative with his right brain because he’s swamped his left brain with so much information that very little is new… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Forge

Never saw the point in tying flies. I just neg the fish and they jump in my boat. Or laser them. It’s rather like spotlight fishing, but legal.

That spittake almost cost me a monitor, you son of a bitch. Well played.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Bromeo

January 28th, 2016 at 7:04 pm
lol at the fr’s on here with 35+ divorced 6’s, its like using a treble hook to snag fish in a small river, no game required.

? Try hard…? several posts here on this very thread confirmed the problem exactly with this demo is that they are post carousel and firm in their born again virgin beliefs…

Don’t be such an obvious tool…

I wish Greg Eliot was here to give a duckface… 🙁

cheupez
5 years ago

@Razorwire, “Those 38y/o birds are walking dead 9/10 times. “I used to be a slut.” But now no kisses. Right. She is on tinder to find a husband. LOL. The thing with lane changers is that they have tasted the sweet treats for far too long. As a result they have acquired type II diabetes form the CC candy. Now, they want you to stick around for all the ass injections of anti-attraction and nutritional seminars down at the non-judgmental rock band church with a gourmet coffee bar…” EPIC!!! Easily the best comment I have read in this place save… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

There is a mix of Documentary and Reality TV in Netflix’s “Chelsea Does Marriage”

From a red pill lens angle, these late 30s/early 40s never been married are undateable, unfuckable, unlikeable and way way past their best before date

Best is her interview with her first serious boyfriend, who nicely avoided living in hell

Jimmy B
Jimmy B
5 years ago

Red Pill men should not use ‘lol’, which is bitch talk and “totes gay”, as the kidz would say! @YaReally, you blog great posts but lose the lol’s mate, for sure…

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

Red Pill men can use lol and be manly.

I know what you are getting at and there was a good post a while ago at TRP about this kind of thing in text game, but it is congruent with YaReally’s style.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@scribblerg “Another point of connection, this would be a lot more interesting after some 32% cosmic chronic for sure.” Another point of connection? Did you find me IRL? I don’t know anything about percentages, but I do love weed. The downside is now that I have a family when I’m stoned I feel like someone could knock down the door of my house and I would just be completely useless. The upside is that a lot of times I’ll have a bunch of puzzle pieces in my head, and the weed will help fit everything together and make connections, etc…… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
5 years ago

@Sentient

Say’s the guy who’s advice to handling a nagging wife is “Take her by the hand to the bedroom and go for it. See what happens…” , LOL dead.

You even unplugged yet bruh.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Jimmy

Thanks for telling us the rules. We were lost without you.

Dota
5 years ago

Rollo I have a question for you that is off topic, but I can’t find an email address to reach you. I just wanted your opinion on a theory I’ve been formulating. We know that beta males are the building blocks of civilization. They have largely constructed our monuments, written our laws, and imbued civilization with their character. My question is this: Did betas construct civilization to increase their sexual access to women? Did the beta male reason that since Alphas succeed in harsh and unforgiving environments (using strength), if said environment gave way to one of security and comfort… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“My question is this: Did betas construct civilization to increase their sexual access to women?” Through food production, although they didn’t think of it in those terms until the project was under way. They just thought of themselves as having mouths to feed. “Did the beta male reason that since Alphas succeed in harsh and unforgiving environments (using strength), if said environment gave way to one of security and comfort (civilization), women would find beta traits (loyalty, modesty ect) more attractive?” They discovered that it tended to work out that way and did what they could to advance it. “Did… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago
newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutchman, using an analogy to relate to how I see you relating to your wife’s shit tests and your efforts with frame: Ever notice a dog self amusing on the floor? Rubbing his back on the carpet with a big smile on his face with tongue handing out, then licking his balls as if nobody matters to him? That’s the ZFG attitude you need to have when you test out game stuff with your wife. I get the feeling that when you do this or that technique, you are not like this dog, but the dog that just did a… Read more »

Dota
5 years ago

kfg

You are right, they discovered, rather than invented. There is no way they could have known in advance of-course.

Dutchman
Dutchman
5 years ago

@newly ” That’s the ZFG attitude you need to have when you test out game stuff with your wife. I get the feeling that when you do this or that technique, you are not like this dog, but the dog that just did a trick and is now sitting at his owners feet wondering if he’s gonna get a treat (did my technique work?) or not.” Yeah, you nailed it. I am definitely too invested in the outcome. “One of my wife’s shit tests is actually asking me what I think about this or that decision she is contemplating. I’ve… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Addendum:

Bear in mind that the simple alpha/beta model is one that may aid understanding of pickup, but it fails at the civilization level.

You need at least three strata, the rulers, the lieutenants and the workers.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch: “One thing I always run into with this is that she ALWAYS calls me out on it when I do that. Like if she tries to engage me in a conversation where she wants to know what I think about something I don’t care about, and I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous and I wish that you were more invested in (X).” I guess I need to just do the back turn thing more but she calls me out… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dutch, P.S. I woke up last night to my wife starting to give me a hand job, so there’s that.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Like if she tries to engage me in a conversation where she wants to know what I think about something I don’t care about, and I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple.” IMO, this means she wants you to make a decision. My wife can’t make a single decision about anything. lol. I quite literally think I make like 99% of all decisions that affect her life. Obviously I don’t really care what kind of birthday present to get kid X that I’ve never meet before, but… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@dutchman ” “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous and I wish that you were more invested in (X).” I guess I need to just do the back turn thing more but she calls me out on that later too, and I usually fall back into her frame.” See… this is why she does it. As HABD would say she is going through her rolodex of moves and low and behold look what happens here, she does it and you go back into her frame. So you are training her to keep… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@Andy

“IMO, this means she wants you to make a decision. My wife can’t make a single decision about anything. lol. I quite literally think I make like 99% of all decisions that affect her life. ”

You’re quite right, her hindbrain wants him to make a decision but she is not convinced of his alphaness, hence his leadership is in question, hence the constant second guessing. And when he caves within her frame it reinforces her doubt. This is the root of the persistent frame battle.

He needs to get her into his frame 100%.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“One of my wife’s shit tests is actually asking me what I think about this or that decision she is contemplating.” That is a universal, primal shit test. ” I say “it doesn’t matter to me” she will respond with “Well, I want to discuss it as a couple. I feel like you’re being disingenuous . . .” It matters to her, and in her solipsism she cannot imagine that it doesn’t matter to you. To her it reads as you being incapable of making a decision about the matter, which is part of the shit test. But a large… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient: Yes! Non sequitur game for the win.
Examples:

1.
Daughter: “Daddy why can’t I have my dessert now?
Me: You’re so funny!

2.
Son: “I don’t want to read my book tonight.”
Me (looking in the book): “This character’s name is actually Stinky Kitty? That’s so funny.”
Son (lays next to me with a smile): “Yeah, he’s the funniest one (and we start reading).

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Sentient Women hate making decisions… Why would making a decision about your family be falling into her frame? To me it seems like a great opportunity to start leading the family and getting “hand.” Once she realizes she can trust in you to start making decisions she’ll come to you for more and more decisions. That’s part of your burden of performance if you ask me. As a man you should be making all of the important of the decisions regarding the family anyway. Like @Dutchman, do you manage all the finances? You should. My wife doesn’t even know how… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Then take the responsibility, whether what you have decided turns out to be right or wrong. Even you fall into the lose/lose, stand behind it. If it was a wrong decision you pass the shit test not by apologizing for it, but by making a new decision and taking a new action.”

This. Okay, we’re all on the same page.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Daughter: “Daddy why can’t I have my dessert now?
Me: You’re so funny!”

And if you’re doing it right it won’t require any thought, because it will amuse you.

“Me (looking in the book): “This character’s name is actually Stinky Kitty? That’s so funny.””

No retreat. No surrender.

“Son (lays next to me with a smile): “Yeah, he’s the funniest one (and we start reading).”

Advance!

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

+1 on Sentients last two comments. Two examples: First: couple are planning a vacation trip. She wants to plan every thing out as much as possible. He delegates to some degree, but she keeps coming back with alternatives – not better, just different. “What if we stayed here instead of there? What if we went this route?”. The wrong way to handl this – enter into endless negotiations. Because sooner or later he’ll decide they’ve agreed, they have a deal, and then when she comes back for yet another round of “What if?” it will seem to him like a… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@andy

well read what I wrote again… and read what Dutchy wrote… she IS testing his frame by questioning his decisions after she asks for it… You are in a different place.

Yes women hate making decisions but they hate following a beta more. she won’t abide by his decisions until he proves himself worthy…

ONCE he reaches that level – via pulling her into his frame – she can then be submissive and follow his decisions…

Don’t treat symptoms… administer the cure.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@scribblerg “Fuck, the old man thing has been crushing my soul.” it’s not the ‘old’ thing that’s the issue (i had to work through this, too…) – actual age has nothing to do with this…that’s just the idea that the FI is using to push on you…and yes, it IS pushing directly on your soul…that’s why it’s SO effective…this is REALLY bc you have no ‘providee’ giving you permission to feel good about yourself (which would let you continue to be a part of that matrix)… this is STILL just straight up FI beta provider enforcement in play (you can… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@dutchman Once again, find other girls to practice on. Just interact with a coworker or something like she’s a little sister. You’re fighting to gain frame when BOTH of you are deeply invested in your beta frame. You need practice under your belt to take that on. I’ve had girls play the ‘ask for me to decide then do the opposite’ game before. I view it one of two ways depending on my whim. The first way is to be flattered that she wanted to see me make a decision cause she thinks it’s hot, even if she’s already made… Read more »

NaughtyBurrito
NaughtyBurrito
5 years ago

@Dota “We know that beta males are the building blocks of civilization.” This theory would work if we accepted that all males who make useful contributions to society are betas and therefore suck with women, and that all alphas are pieces of shit like yareally and keep messy apartments (lol jkjk, but you see my point). So, it would help to clear things up if we agreed that when we talk about alpha and beta, we are only talking about skills with women. Beta males can be found at all levels of society, same as alphas. Said in a different… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Or to restate my tl;dr another way:

Women want men to be decisive. A man who can’t make up his mind scares their hindbrain, “What if a bear tries to get in the cave and he can’t stop it?”. Once he’s set his frame is set, retained it, and stands on his decisions… all that second guessing will tend to fade.

Andy’s wife asking him for his decision on all those issues is a flip side of the same thing – by asking him to be The Decider she’s demonstrating submission, most likely.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Second, she’s deliberately trying to annoy you. As a shit test. So don’t be annoyed, just don’t give a shit. Just act like you’ve totally forgotten the whole interaction, like she’s not on your mind at all. Her- ‘blue or red dress?’ You- ‘red.’ Her – (shows up in blue dress) You – ‘nice dress, is it new?’”

Disagree. That’s crossing a boundary. You don’t have to go nuclear, but you should definitely enforce your boundaries regardless of who it is… Normal chick, cluster b, another man, whatever…

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@HABD – Roger that, great commentary and thanks for taking the time to do so.

having a bad day
having a bad day
5 years ago

@scribblerg “@HABD – Roger that, great commentary and thanks for taking the time to do so.” you’re welcome…when i get more time and work through some of my more pressing shit, you can help me learn to play poker… one thing that helped me work through ‘sticking points’ is the same thing that Culum was using = going out to work on specific things WITH a self-imposed limit of NO pulling/sex (at least on the expectation side of things)… i would go out to push a boundary and have a specific rule that even if a girl started playing with… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

@Culum Dude – so proud… you are killing it. This FR was epic – not because you had an eightsome at the Playboy Mansion – but because you are out there, grinding away, taking on advice, implementing it and growing. You should inspire legions of KJ’s to step away from the screen and go and do. +1,000,000 Instead of pulling your pud alone, you got a handy in public from a stranger in under 2 hours for your efforts! In a couple of days you absorbed a bunch of new things and then went and executed on them. Badass… Some… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” “And guys, I’m no Chad – average to slightly above average. 6.5 – maybe a 7 max. ” aaand you’re basing this on?…” Several years ago I was walking down the sidewalk and had just passed a young couple sitting on the stoop when I heard the girl say behind me, “Now that guy is hot, and he knows it.” The thing is, it’s the first time I had a clue. I can’t see it at all myself. But then, I am not supposed to. Women are. And for the Ya Really critics out there, I’ll note that whatever… Read more »

funoldguy
funoldguy
5 years ago

Culum and Scrib, I’ve been following along for quite a while here and before I throw my 2 cents worth of advice in I want to give you both a standing ovation. What you are doing is not easy. It’s at the deepest level a reinvention of who you are. The trick is to reach your goals in a timely fashion. Where I see the problem arising is that you guys are trying to run your game out of your heads right on the field. If you were the QB on a team would you only throw passes in an… Read more »

Dota
5 years ago

Rollo

Thanks, I look forward to your post.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@culum ” I just thought of Scray’s advice to scribblerg on this thread about not overgaming and thought “I don’t really need to pump attraction MORE here do I?” And I just shut up and went harder at the make out and grabbing her tits in the bar mixed with some sexual comments (zero resistance – at one point I had my hands under her top on her tits in the bar).” Good! Game is NOT just being mr. funny guy and making her laugh or telling stories. The highly verbal stuff is good for the beginning when the AFC… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
GhostOfJefferson
5 years ago

@Blaximus “And VIOLA!!! there’s the disconnect. Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it. No buildup. No real conversation.” This is very true. I’ve seen it more than a few times in real life. Life isn’t neat nor does it run by a script on “how it should be”. Sometimes, assholes just exist and do shit for no rational reason whatsoever. Scenario I witnessed this last summer. Man sitting at bar drinking, talking to a buddy. Bartending chick behind the bar, semi-busy, it was a moderate crowd. This… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Dutchman You are getting some excellent advice here, although it may sound conflicting and you are coming up short at times because your wife is a master-manipulator of you as we speak. Pay attention to the fundamentals of game that is contained and fit them to your own script. I’ve been where you are (although probably not as bad, as I was somewhat more aware I was being manipulated, but needed tools) and have done that. Let me tell you that I feel for you. It’s hard and it takes time to undo years of bad habits. Just keep putting… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“So why the “wow” when she saw me?”

Hehe – thinking about this involuntary WOW response some more… the equivalent of hindbrain to forebrain mic drop…

comment image

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

“It’s hard and it takes time to undo years of bad habits. ” On time, since I have some…. 4 1/2 years on now from when I started turning things around… Took 2 years to get things where I wanted… MMSL uses terms like Sex Rank and the battle for who is dominant… Not a bad way to look at it, it’s really a frame battle. In the beginning of turning things around after many years of neglect, you are completely invisible to your wife… she cannot see your frame, she only thinks about hers… It takes months before you… Read more »

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