I had an interesting study brought to my attention recently (ht/ Robert Burriss) and I thought I’d get back to a nuts and bolts post with something useful I found in it.
Women Selectively Guard Their Desirable Mates From Ovulating Women.
As you might expect, much of the findings in this study reinforce many Red Pill principles founded in evo-psych, but there are a few new angles to consider here. Before I start to riff on this study, bear in mind that the concept of female mate guarding behavior centers on what the researchers define as ‘desirable mates’ to women. This subjective assessment of desirability will play into all this analysis.
For women, forming close, cooperative relationships with other women at once poses important opportunities and possible threats-including mate retention. To maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of same-sex social relationships, we propose that women’s mate guarding is functionally flexible and that women are sensitive to both interpersonal and contextual cues indicating whether other women might be likely and effective mate poachers. Here, we assess one such cue: other women’s fertility. Because ovulating (i.e., high-fertility) women are both more attractive to men and also more attracted to (desirable) men, ovulating women may be perceived to pose heightened threats to other women’s romantic relationships. Across 4 experiments, partnered women were exposed to photographs of other women taken during either their ovulatory or nonovulatory menstrual-cycle phases, and consistently reported intentions to socially avoid ovulating (but not nonovulating) women-but only when their own partners were highly desirable. Exposure to ovulating women also increased women’s sexual desires for their (highly desirable) partners. These findings suggest that women can be sensitive to subtle cues of other women’s fertility and respond (e.g., via social exclusion, enhanced sexual attention to own mate) in ways that may facilitate their mate retention goals while not thwarting their affiliative goals.
Right from the start here we have two Red Pill foundations confirmed; the influence that perceptual SMV plays in women’s sense of passive Dread and the fundamental influence that menstruation dictates to sexual arousal and concurrent motivations for sex appeal during women’s ovulation phase.
I’ve previously gone into the dynamics that play out between men and women with regard to perceived SMV of a partner versus the other partner’s self-perception of their own SMV and how this determines secure vs. insecure attachment. This post was more of an outline of results of SMV imbalance rather that the motivations for the characteristics of those personal attachments. This study illustrates these underlying motivators very well.
Anyone who’s heard my Man in Demand talk on Hypergamy understands the (menstrual cycle) biological root for women’s personal and sociological behavior, and this study provides yet another confirmation of it. I’ve also written in the past about men’s propensity for mate guarding and the behavioral cues women, both subtly and not so subtly, display that prompts them to mate guarding. However, I’ve yet to explore women’s mate guarding behaviors.
I’m bringing up the SMV ratios and Mate Guarding posts here because it’s important to bear in mind the subjectivity that perceived SMV plays in regard to motivating mate guarding. Depending on that balance (or imbalance) one partner will be more motivated to mate guard than the other. Which of course then brings us back to the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. Mate guarding impulse is contextual to the comparative value of both individuals and the value of others in their social environment (potential sexual competitors).
Thus, it is a significant challenge for women when other women attempt to poach their partners. For instance, over 50% of women admit to attempting to poach another woman’s partner, and over 80% of men admit to having been the object of another woman’s poaching—with about half of men admitting to “going along” with the poaching attempt (e.g., Schmitt et al., 2004; Schmitt & Buss, 2001). Women have good reason, then, to mate guard.
I’m going to encourage readers to take the time to, at the very least, read the introduction, premise and results of this comprehensive study. Naturally there will be incredulous women who will insist that men tend to overestimate the displayed sexual interests of women towards them. This is a common social convention that serves a very specific purpose for women; plausible deniability.
If the common group-think is that men are egotistical, think they’re “all that” and stupidly believe they’re seeing sexual cues from women because “that’s just how men are”, then we have a pre-established condition in which women can believably deny interest. Thus, should a man not find a woman attractive, or opt for another, this then serves as a rejection buffer as well as a precondition for her own rejection of a man should he make an approach and not be found attractive.
The Schmitt & Buss studies account for this, but even if they didn’t there would still need to be a functional reason for women’s mate guarding behavior. That reason puts the lie to the social convention of women presuming men aren’t as perceptive of their sexual cues as they’d like to believe.
[…] whereas men have at times physically isolated and sequestered their female
partners to restrict other men’s access to them (e.g., in harems), women may analogously socially isolate their partners from potential poachers—keeping them apart so as to preclude potentially costly competition for their romantic partners.
The usefulness of this strategy depends on women being able to identify those who might be likely and effective mate poachers, and then excluding them (but not others) from their social circles. If a woman indiscriminately distances herself and her partner from potential poachers (i.e., all other women), she is assured of his fidelity but at the cost of eliminating her access to the numerous benefits of female–female friendships.
Spoiler alert: The study confirms that women will covertly exclude themselves and their lover’s company from women who A.) outclass them in comparative SMV (hotter women than they perceive themselves to be) and B.) happen to be in the proliferative phase of ovulation.
This indicates that not only are women subconsciously (if not consciously) aware of intrasexual rivals ovulatory states – as evidenced by dress, ornamentation, vocal intonation, scent, sexual proceptivity, etc. – but they are aware enough to orchestrate covert methods to protect their sexual investments in a ‘high value’ male while ensuring future intrasexual friendships.
That may seem like an overly scientific way of saying women watch out for other women slutting it up, but the subcommunications of ovulation are so subtle that women’s subconscious, peripheral awareness of those cues evolved for a sensitivity that goes beyond the obvious slut. That’s how important retaining a better-than-self SMV optimal mating choice is to women in an evolutionary scope. That sensitivity is part of women’s psychological firmware.
[…]In addition, if a woman were to consistently and indiscriminately exclude other women from her own and, by extension, her partner’s social circle, she might gain a reputation for being non-communal and non-nurturing, and thus, for being an undesirable friend. This might not only thwart her ability to form future friendships with other women, but might also lead her partner to perceive her as highly difficult, uncooperative, controlling, and non-trusting.
Thus, on one hand, the costs of indiscriminately avoiding other women are high because women reap important benefits from making new same-sex friends, On the other hand, women can and do mate poach with frequency, and those women deeply embedded in one’s social circle may have increased access, motivation, and ability to poach successfully.
There’s a few things to unpack here before we can make this information Red Pill / Game applicable. The most important metric that female mate guarding indicates is her genuine assessment of a man’s SMV and how valuable his participation and investment in their LTR (or even STR sexual value) is to her.
I’ve seen this mate guarding play out in my own relationships before, both as a Red Pill husband who happens to work with beautiful women in the liquor industry and prior to my Red Pill awareness of it in my libertine 20s. Back then it was easy to pass off as ‘bitches be crazy’ when a girlfriend or a short term sex partner “just got jealous”. But in hindsight the timing of those fits of jealousy seemed a bit to regular.
I’m going to suggest that developing an awareness of a woman’s bouts of jealousy or her subtle timing in wanting to spend time alone with you, or her being more sexually proceptive (she wants to fuck more) with you at times you may think odd. These are Alpha or Beta Tells. A woman’s preoccupation with guarding you from other women is a prime indicator of your SMV worth to her. It stands to reason that only ‘desirable’ men deserve the effort of her mate guarding.
This is an important Red Pill sensitivity to have as it also allows you to determine a woman’s unspoken understanding of where she and you stand in relative SMV comparison. As I was saying in the introduction here, that ‘desirability’, that SMV ratio, that Alpha impression that makes you worth mate guarding is subjective to what a woman’s self-perceived SMV is in respect to your own. When we interact with women in the long term it’s very easy for men to lose sight of this balance and think that their frumpy wife is the best they can do. There is a definitive psychological game that women of low SMV will play with men they know are of higher value – they will continually devalue that man as a form of mate guarding.
That devaluation may take the form of browbeating, nagging or accusing him of being attracted to other women in an effort to get her higher value LTR man to self-limit his being poached by endlessly qualifying himself to his low SMV wife/girlfriend. It’s far easier, and far lower an investment of resources if a low SMV woman can convince her higher SMV man to mate guard himself.
Just as an aside here, there may be a few readers who’ll think women will rationally consider that their long term provisioning is virtually assured in a feminine-primary social order. Alimony, child support or pro-female government will assure her and her offspring a baseline of security, so why mate guard any man?
The answer of course is that women’s psychological firm ware didn’t evolve to acknowledge these considerations. Once again T-Rex doesn’t want to be fed, he wants to hunt. So even with the logical consideration that provisioning is assured women’s limbic (particularly on an Alpha Fucks short term breeding assurance) still wants those environmental and behavioral cues that indicate they have that security.
Passive Dread
So with all of this to digest how do we put this knowledge of women’s limbic desire for ensuring a mate’s exclusive sex and provisioning to use for us?
The obvious answer is in the title of this post – developing that awareness of your SMV worth to a woman is a good starting point from which you can subtly employ a passive form of Dread.
I’ve gotten a lot of grief for just my acknowledging Dread, much less using it beneficially for both a man and whatever woman he chooses (long or short term). It’s always about how horribly manipulative it is, or it’s just an unsustainable game of brinksmanship between a couple that destroys trust. But what these (usually female) critics never recognize is that Dread is already an integral part of every relationship by order of degree.
The fact that both male and female mate guarding behaviors are evidential facts of both sex’s hindbrain function should be proof enough that Dread, the concern of loss of investment, and the subconscious, comparative evaluation of SMV is something that’s always an operative. It’s inherent to our conditions as evolved human beings.
My advice in this instance is for men to become sensitive to the indicators of that ovulatory mate guarding dread and use that insecurity to promote a better, genuine desire in that woman. Suggesting this will seem counterintuitive to a Blue Pill mindset. The conditioned response will be to allay that woman’s fears (the ones she’s subconsciously aware of but will hate you for making her acknowledge) and provide her with comfort and familiarity.
But comfort and familiarity are anti-seductive and kill the genuine desire, the genuine need to fuck you in order to keep you and show her appreciation for your higher SMV. Why does a woman compete for what she is constantly comfortably assured she already has?
The trick to employing soft or passive dread is making yourself sensitive to the opportunities to use it and then gently provoke it in as covert and indirect a way as possible. One of the better ideas the early PUAs had was mastering the art of the Neg, or the backhanded compliment. The idea was to casually knock a woman’s self-image down to a manageable degree in order to get her to qualify herself the the PUA. Passive dread operates on a similar principle.
You need to see the opportunities for its use, and women’s propensity for mate guarding men they find ‘desirable’ is a reasonably predictable opportunity. See those chances for other women’s casual flirtations with you, look for those unsolicited opportunities for easy social proof, and don’t dissuade your woman’s initial mate guarding response. Casually push back on the mate guarding impulse, don’t jump to the reassurances of your undying love and interest.
See that opportunity for what it is – a chance to restate whose Frame she’s chosen to be a part of. She wants to merit your value. Take that effort away from her and you become valueless to her.
@YaReally They don’t even care if they get the girl, they think they will EVENTUALLY when she realizes he’s better than all these jerks, their goal is just to make sure YOU don’t get her. …but I can’t blame them I do the same thing to other guys lol but just when they’re dicks to me and earn it. I think the difference is that if you or I do this, we’re doing it for the lulz and fun of competing. These guys are playing out of anger and taking shit personal. One is going to keep things light and… Read more »
@Culum They always admit to less than they’ve done. She’s a standard “reformed” CC rider trying way too hard and way too late to make a lane change. You and I couldn’t possibly punch through those bitch shields. I probably would have bailed within minutes. Then again 38’s also well beyond what I would bother with online for a lot of the reasons you ran in to, so while it requires more experience to get her going you could be pulling hotter/younger chicks so why bother? Never mention job. Ever. It’s none of her goddamn business until you’re considering commitment.… Read more »
@Culum
Oh and for the record, it is piss poor Girl Game to say “I don’t X on the first date” for any value of X. Even sex. You take a dude’s possibility of getting laid off the table up front and make it clear you feel no immediate attraction without leaving him any hope? Really? Talk about lacking feminine charm…
“Talk about lacking feminine charm…”
Shit is too common nowadays.
YeahReally. Killing it. Your assessment of the young ones sure casts some dark shadows upon the sexual marketplace – and “culture” at large, really. Can’t disagree at all, but your poolside optimism intrigues. I feel like I’m a long way away from enjoying the shitstorm to the point where the silver linings are keeping me warm at night and I’m LOL’ing my way to the bank. “…especially as they realize working at 40+ isn’t fun like it was at 25 when the CEO with a wife and 2 kids was flirting with them in the office.” Yep. Most things are… Read more »
@kobayashi
You might wanna consider using the @notation to address other commenters. I’ve no idea what any of your responses on here went to.
@Sun: Got it! Using the app on the phone so thought it did that automatically…noted.
Sun,
Agreed on the girl game. Hard lines are just being a bitch.
I don’t care if she has standards, whatever, the guy can make his decisions accordingly. But a girl should allow the guy to make his move before she shuts anything down.
Given the circumstances Culum could have taken a walk. I get why he didn’t, the night is blown by that time anyway, might as well get some practice in.
@Striver I get why he didn’t, the night is blown by that time anyway, might as well get some practice in. I suppose. I guess personally I’m just at a point where I’ve done that dance enough times that I find it obnoxious and predictable. No longer really educational, ya know? When a woman starts that shit, I’d rather go elsewhere and just hope I hit a random cutie to try. Barring that I just chat up folks somewhere I frequent and start working on building some more social proof for the rare moments when chicks worth my time do… Read more »
@Yollo I walk away like a little bitch and let everyone in the bar laugh at me and think I’m a huge pussy and then Chad Thundercock who was up in my grill fucks the shit out of the girl I was trying to bang. Nothing that happens in a bar is worth fighting over. I always walk away or get a bouncer. I’ll even leave the venue and go to a different one if I think it’s not a situation that will de-escalate. Other people’s fights I don’t get involved in at all, I just walk in the other… Read more »
@Yollo I also warn girls I’m dating or take out for a night of drinking that I’m not going to clean up their messes if they get white girl wasted and start drama in the bar. I tell them that when I tell them to shut up they shut up and let me handle the situation (and talk the situation down) and if they open their mouths again I will flat out just walk away. They’ll turn around and I won’t be there because I’ll already be in a cab home texting some other girl who’s less drama. Only had… Read more »
@Culum – Just riffing here, but I had a thought reading all the great feedback you got on your FR. I run into the same thing with these types of women, hence the idea. What about taking the posture of disqualifying by reading her intent and playing along and amplifying? You figured out she was husband searching, why not? “Okay, let’s see if we can find you husband material while we’re out? Cuz I’m the guy you ‘chill and watch netflix with’ so this is a bust for both of us.” Go up and approach men, introduce them to her,… Read more »
“And now they want you to stick around for all the ass-injections of anti-attraction and nutritional seminars down at the non-judgmental rock-band church with a gourmet coffee bar.”
“Honey-do-list weekends at the Ikea picking out shitty, knobless furniture while secretly checking the scores on your phone hoping nobody sees the deadness in your eyes.”
God that made me laugh and cry at the same time, that’s the type pulling me into their orbit.
@YaReally post of January 26th, 2016 at 1:14 pm
Man that is a bit depressing.
They’re happy as fuck with how things are because they don’t see the long-term consequences of their current actions. They’re a beautiful mess and won’t figure that out until it blindsides them and they won’t be equipped to deal with it and those of us that could give them guidance will be long gone. That’s why red pill writing is important…it’ll outlive us all and may turn things around one day, long after we’re all dust. It’ll only outlive us if it gets printed, preferably in the form of hardcover books. Online content is rather transient, and won’t survive a… Read more »
“That’s why red pill writing is important…it’ll outlive us all and may turn things around one day, long after we’re all dust.” “It’ll only outlive us if it gets printed, preferably in the form of hardcover books.” I think we might be a little too pessimistic. There’s this cool experiment with mice where each successive generation of mice could navigate a certain maze they had never seen before, completely untrained, faster than the generation before. Which is freaky in and of itself – but even FREAKIER is that successive generations of mice completely unrelated DNA wise in locations hundreds of… Read more »
@culum Man that sounds like a brutal “date”… A few thoughts for you. You are really close I think to breaking things wide open, you’re just stuck in a rut of your own making… “I don’t normally go to girls but I ended up meeting at a bar near her place when she asked because I had been flaked on by someone else and asked her last minute, and the alternative was spending the evening alone.” False choice #1!!! The alternative was not to be alone, it was to GO OUT and do live cold approach pick up… It is… Read more »
Niko
Regarding contraception studies have shown that it affects mate selection that is; the hormones within the pill or contraceptives that combine oestrogen and progestorone mimic a condition where the body thinks its pregnant. Therefore mate selection alters for these women who select less threatening men.
Can you point to these studies? A Medline link would be most helpful.
@yareally “Making eye-contact will make you seem confident…making eye-contact while cutting the space will make you seem like a sexual “threat”…and like the old PUA saying goes: she should always feel that when she’s interacting with you she’s in imminent danger of being fucked. lol” I find that actually speaking in your mind amplifies the sexual vibe… so you are lasering and in your mind going “yeah. I know you know we want to fuck. we both know it”… and project that into the back of her head. Also helps to “force” sexualization by moving your focus from her eyes… Read more »
“It’ll only outlive us if it gets printed, preferably in the form of hardcover books. Online content is rather transient, and won’t survive a bigger social crisis anyway. Centuries from now, people will want to find the answers why this civilization has gone to shit and collapsed. They won’t find them unless historians today and in the near future are willing to do their job properly, from a RP perspective.” I’m not so sure it’s a cycle of centuries so much as decades (perhaps approximately 1.5 of them). “Beautiful messes” are flames that tend to burn out very quickly. That… Read more »
@Andy
Rupert Sheldrake’s “morphic resonance” is woo. Pure woo.
Rollo comes through with links
So even women using HC will still manifest the same or similar behavioral effects of those phases during that cycle, but not to the same degree as women who don’t use HC. Women’s firmware is still attuned to that cycle.
That’s the question I was trying to ask.
@Sun
You never know. Anyone that actually replicated it would have their career ruined.
I think we might be a little too pessimistic. There’s this cool experiment with mice where each successive generation of mice could navigate a certain maze they had never seen before, completely untrained, faster than the generation before. Which is freaky in and of itself – but even FREAKIER is that successive generations of mice completely unrelated DNA wise in locations hundreds of miles away could also navigate that maze faster
I happen to remember another mice experiment that supports YeReally’s view:
http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-rats-turned-their-private-paradise-into-a-terrifyin-1687584457
I’m not so sure it’s a cycle of centuries so much as decades (perhaps approximately 1.5 of them). “Beautiful messes” are flames that tend to burn out very quickly. That isn’t a lifestyle that endures very long YaReally has made the point that the demographic below 25 doesn’t even want a way out of this spiral, and lacks the self-discipline to escape it anyway. I think he’s right, but the situation is even worse, because older people are also largely in the same situation. They cannot even conceptualize a culture that is markedly different from theirs. As long as social… Read more »
What is the Brazil example?
@Culum props on pushing outside your comfort zone…you are getting better for sure…i really liked your OODA loop on the walk to the car…lol… but you lost this one when you showed up, bc… ““No, no, no kissing on the first date” ” you were trapped in her frame for the whole thing bc you were on a ‘date’ = HER frame = looking for a provider = sex used as bargaining chip… as opposed to ‘hanging out’ = YOUR frame = authentic desire = sex as fun (which given her history of fb/casual sex, she obviously likes…lol) good luck!… Read more »
@Sentient – Holy shit, keep it coming. Learning a ton from your commentary and it’s motivating. I’m out coffee shop sarging later today. Thanks!
@culum She was also talking about how she has given herself a deadline of age 40 to have kids (two years) and if she doesn’t make it by then she will never have them or adopt or something but she doesn’t want to “settle” and only wants to do it with the right guy. Erm..okay. If at this point you told her you had been snipped (whether true or not) how long do you think the rest of the date would have lasted, in seconds? This is the V test, is she after cock or sperm? Also some stuff about… Read more »
@Andy
It has all the hallmarks of pseudo-science. You fall for a lot of that shit, it seems. Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World would be a good idea for you to read. Your bullshit filter needs a lot of fine-tuning.
@scriblerg Thanks. You seem like an open minded chappie. Since you are going out today to sarge try an experiment. You know how much easier it is to approach when in “state” right? Like you can do anything. why? Because feelz are realzzz right? And as YaReally always says “what you feel she feels”. So a lot of guys cheat into state with numbing their systems via alcohol. Harder to do in daygame… But you can amp up our state dramatically with music. Music will change your feelings, i.e. change your brain chemistry. It is well documented. from stories of… Read more »
Women can be good at online stuff: Today’s Dear Abby: I have been married for 10 years. Four years ago, while waiting for our divorce to be finalized, I decided I’d start dating online and suggested she do the same. We were still friends, so I didn’t think it was crossing any boundaries. My online dating efforts were met with peculiar results. All of the six women I connected with either stood me up or made excuses why they couldn’t or wouldn’t meet me in person. Out of frustration I began dating my wife again and we canceled the divorce… Read more »
I wanted to bounce a bit off this neglected comment: bo jangles January 25th, 2016 at 10:16 pm I’ve got something for you Rollo. One interesting thing is that men and women generally respond very differently to stress(generally the response to stress hormonally is like the response to exercise). Men tend to become narcissistic and less social, and women become anxious and more social. It makes sense that during hunting or running away that the mind stop using portions certain portions of it, just as blood is shunted away from the stomach, and towards muscle. My theory is that men… Read more »
@redlight
That’s pretty brilliant, actually. Well played.
@Sentient “I find that actually speaking in your mind amplifies the sexual vibe… so you are lasering and in your mind going “yeah. I know you know we want to fuck. we both know it”… and project that into the back of her head.” If it helps, do it lol You can even verbalize it if you want (40 min and 39 sec into this vid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EwPGtWaUOE&t=40m39s “Also helps to “force” sexualization by moving your focus from her eyes to her neck and to her lips… especially when she is speaking.” Trianglular gazing, oldschool tactic: http://www.pualingo.com/triangular-gazing/ @hoellenhund2 “I happen to… Read more »
the only way to not be sad about modern society is to join the dark side of amazing abundance
http://i.imgur.com/cJlBUVL.webm
that’s….
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/unpwr.gif
@ya “Don’t let society program your brain, it wants you docile and retarded and lethargic and self-doubting so you stay in line. Society’s programming is how you GOT here in the first place. Take pro-active steps to program it with good healthy positive shit. Save the zombie mode for lazy days.” so much this. society pushes so much shit on everyone. like you talk to people and so many of them just have these cookie-cutter ‘aspirations’ and ‘goals’ and thoughts about life. if you eat what society feeds you, then you are just going to think you’re a worthless piece… Read more »
What is the Brazil example? An ethnically diverse, heavily stratified, stagnant, violent society which the outside world calls patriarchal and macho, but is in effect a feminized matriarchy. The government, the armed forces and the economy are all controlled by a small, very wealthy, closed, self-perpetuating elite that is predominantly white, and lives in luxurious, isolated gated communities defended by armed mercenaries who shoot all intruders without warning. The middle class is a relatively small demographic that is mostly white, and it’s mostly employed by the state bureaucracy and state-owned companies. The largest demographic is the huge underclass living in… Read more »
http://abcnews.go.com/US/miami-doctor-accused-attacking-uber-driver-calls-biggest/story?id=36542246 “After THINGS “get physical”” (because they “just happen”, really who can place the blame, we certainly can’t blame her initiating the physical assault so let’s just say “things got physical”, look people MISTAKES WERE MADE) “…and she’s PUSHED TO THE GROUND” (NOW we can blame someone, look at that monster pushing this helpless little girl to the ground!!!) The whole thing is fucking funny and sad. You could literally predict everything this apology contains, from dramatic shots of her overlooking the city to sad pained music, to her bullshit excuses about why that “wasn’t me” and how that’s never… Read more »
btw they conveniently forgot to mention: “the girl decides to reach into the front seat, grab his keys, and start walking away with his keys in her hands…. That’s where the video starts…” “The girl eventually got up from the area the cops had told her to sit and wait, and tried to walk away from the scene. Once in handcuffs, she then tried kicking some of the police officers on the scene. It was only when they put her in the police car that she started crying, apologizing, and claiming that she would lose her medical license (she claimed… Read more »
@Sentient – Great reco. One of the shockers of my Red Pill journey (now 53, woke up 3 yrs ago) is how I’ve come to like old school hip hop. Snoop, Biggie, Tupac, Ice Cube and on and on. It puts me in a rock out with your cock out vibe and i’m listening right now. Mini-FR – I’m in a cafe where I know the owner well and the staff. I have some status from work I did for the owner a while back as a consultant. They hire a constant stream of 20something hotties from the local college.… Read more »
YaReally, “Wait till all the other sexually frustrated 95% of guys see that the first beta uprising who doesn’t kill himself at the end of his shooting spree ends up with a fanclub of girls who want to fuck, date, marry and have kids with him. It will be a nightmare that snowballs way past what anyone can imagine.” Kinda already happened. Here’s a picture of James Holme’s wall in prison. http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2356099.1441921761!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/letters11n-4-web.jpg An article describing the thousands of letters with lipstick and perfume on them he got, girls driving across the country to see his court hearings and ‘mouthing things’… Read more »
” I pull my earbuds off, still in state, and say, “I barely recognized you.” She responds, “I know you always see me when I’m in that ugly brown tee shirt.” And I’m lost. Her ugly, scowling friend is sitting there, waiting for her and I go all chode. “Yeah, when you walked in I didn’t even recognize you. I was like who’s that..and then I realized it was you.” and trail off she acknowledges the flattery and I watch the flame sputter out.” lol this girl is practically bending over for you, jesus….THIS IS VULGAR TO READ. and then…WHEN… Read more »
@scribblerg hehehe I’m 48… Good stuff, it’s all fun right? Try this next time you have your buds in: I pull my earbuds off, still in state, and say, “check this out” and put one in her ear… this brings her close. Now you can start to state transfer! You ar ein state… put the bud in her ear, laser her, some kino if you can… just rock out for 20-30 seconds, lasering her – no words. Then nod your head “it’s good yeah?”… play off her vibe then. ” I can open anyone, anywhere, anytime.” – he he the… Read more »
“PS – a word about local spots… I find you will burn them because attraction is so ephemeral… if you don’t strike when you have it and you keep seeing the same girls over and over, you end up friendzoning yourself…” yes and no. what friendzones you is building too much comfort and letting it outpace attraction. there are alpha orbiters and beta orbiters. beta orbiters invest a lot of comfort time into a relationship with someone — emotional tampon, etc. alpha orbiting is very light. every time you see them, you flirt, and you make it sexual. that’s it,… Read more »
@Scribble “I’m still not the prize. This is THE ISSUE for old man game. ”
You have a dick; girls have pussies. Your old dick looks just like it did when you were thirty, Seriously, if a 20-year-old girl was giving you head and all she could see in her field of vision was the tip of your dick, at that moment, would she be able to tell you were 50+? lol.
@newlyaloof
“Your old dick looks just like it did when you were thirty,”
Really? Mine looks bigger… at least that’s what I keep telling my wife…
Me: Damn
Her: What is it!
Me:IDK… My dick is getting bigger, isn’t it?
Her:Asshole
Me: Seriously, it’s swelling up!
@Sentient, lol. That reminds me of a joke I’ve played on my wife:
Me: Their neighbor is the biggest dick.
Wife: Who?
Me: Deez nuts!
This article has got a lot of “actionable intelligence”. Thats what I love about TRM. Yareally had covered an aspect of this in some comment eons ago. But this deep dive helps us apply Dread with more precision. Understand the why of things and then one can come up with unique tactics pertinent to the situation rather than regurgitate standard pickup lines and rehearsed tactics while waiting for the right moment to use them. I see Game as more about being a smooth operator than just either wanton or hesitant superimposition of one’s frame and will on others. “… is… Read more »
“(and if I don’t want to leave I just use social pressure to get them to back down, search my archives for stuff on this…everyone caves to social pressure if you apply enough of it. The only ones who don’t are legit sociopaths and they generally aren’t out at a nightclub and are easy to spot because they’re missing half their teeth and covered in scars and shit from all the fucked up shit they’ve gotten into over the years…your random MMA buddy and jacked bro and tough old man who talks about how much ass he’d kick on forums… Read more »
“Hey!!!! Where do the doctors fit in ?”
Just behind plumbers. Plumbing is empirical.
@scribblerg “Essentially what I do is throw myself out of the set and miscalibrate and become a pussy beggar – last time was a 20 minute version of that. I’m still not the prize. This is THE ISSUE for old man game. What makes it maddening is that I have a number of little contacts like this one percolating along and I keep fucking it up when I go for it. ” It’s funny because this is 100% social conditioning. In another culture where older men are respected and admired and where a large age difference is normal, you would… Read more »
@scribblerg
Here’s Younger Ozzie, I think he’s like mid 40s here, good mindsets and shit, might help to hear it from the guy who’s still tearing it up in those videos I just linked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z_UxzEuelM
@Yareally “n love with me”. Same with guys in the bar, they approach with “hey so what’s your name do you come here often do you go to school here” Comfort zzzzzzz because they don’t have Attraction. ” Funny though, the Julian Chill Pick up you posted 80% of his verbal was the 7 Deadly Questions… You can get away with that if you have a good frame and subcoms… And AWALT – the other Julian vid with the (Master’s Degree seeking) stripper he opens with “you look so innocent”… LOL Great vid. Def watch it… great showing how much… Read more »
I’m afraid people are increasingly disengaging from reality. We talk about how betas are retreating into booze, porn and videogames. We talk less about how women are retreating into social media
False parallel. For women, social media is not an escape from reality. It IS reality. THEIR daily reality. Their escape from reality are romance novels and other forms of emotional porn.
“You can get away with that if you have a good frame and subcoms…”
It’s a question of intent.
““The Uber driver was too good of a person and decided to take a cash settlement instead of pressing charges” Let’s just make sure that beta men know that if they let women get away with shitty behavior they’re “good people”, they totes might get laid.”” Actually, the driver opted for an undisclosed cash settlement. Pressing charges would impede his lawyerless monetary gains. “This girl will be doing the exact same shit a year from now when she’s forgotten about the consequences, except she’ll attack the guy holding the camera too.” She has been suspended from her hospital. People who… Read more »
@Blaximus “I may be dense, but I am always fascinated by this idea of social pressure. Even more strange is that people cave to it so willingly.” If you’ve ever not sworn around kids, you’ve caved to social pressure. If you’ve ever worn a suit to a wedding, you’ve caved to social pressure. If you’ve ever addressed an older person as Sir or Ma’am in your youth, you’ve caved to social pressure. If you’ve ever not backed down from a potential fight because you didn’t want to look/feel like a pussy, you’ve caved to social pressure. You just don’t see… Read more »
“you practically had an X-rated movie right there in front of you…you just don’t see it that way because you’re not in the ‘club’ yet and you doubt yourself. whereas a guy like me reads the first paragraph and i’m biting my fucking fist lmao omg.” Hate to just copy/paste my stuff but I don’t have time to make it original right now lol. I was talking with HABD on the ‘Teachable Moment’ thread earlier and something I said there is relevant: “Heh, I remember Steve Jabba (a natural who got into PUA) saying that if a girl stands near… Read more »
@Blaximus P.S. If you cringe watching that Louie vid, like it grates on your SOUL and it’s difficult to watch him be that emasculated, you’re caving to social pressure. Because logically with no emotions involved he’s making the right decision: de-escalate the situation so that he can go home to his kids. That’s the right move. The reasons why it’s cringe-worth come from social pressure (“but he looks like a pussy!!” “but that girl won’t bang him (scarcity mindset)” “but he let some other guy tool him!!” (embarrassment based on “what do other people think of me/him?” why does their… Read more »
“I’m now switching to calling instead of texting” I have never sent a text in my life and I probably never will. I have never encountered a situation in work, social or romantic settings that has required one. because of my marital status I have to be careful with game. besides solo day game and flirting at night when out in social situations or with wifey, I started online because I can totally control how it goes. because of my job and the size of my town I do not have a picture or anything in my profile. the results… Read more »
@Sun Wukong, YaReally
Forever in debt to your priceless advice.
I still think I’m cooler than the average bear for my mystical bullet deflecting penis techniques.
@Sentient “Funny though, the Julian Chill Pick up you posted 80% of his verbal was the 7 Deadly Questions… You can get away with that if you have a good frame and subcoms…” When Julien is doing his Comfort he’s doing it WITH Attraction (A3). ie – he’s doing breaking rapport “How old are you.” as if she’s not good enough for him and he’s trying to DISqualify her. Whereas most guys are going “How old are you?? 🙂 🙂 (raising voice tonality seeking rapport)”. Julien is basically Qualifying/screening her WITH the questions themselves. He explains a lot of this… Read more »
“I don’t wanna hear this “old man game” shit lol” That’s why I refer to silverhead/back/whatever game instead. It implies maturity, power, dominance and being the prize. It think, however, when you get here, you will find that there are some differences in the game, but they are largely implied in the above. It’s a game of an iron fist in a velvet glove. More projection of raw power, but with more practiced subtlety than a young man can pull off. Isolation and discretion become more important, because the opinion of the girl’s gaggle is amped by an order of… Read more »
” All the macho “but bro you gotta step up when you get disrespected bro, who cares if you get knocked out and disfigured and can’t take care of your kids at least you were a MAN bro” is social conditioning and social pressure.” Lol. See, these thoughts never enter my mind. Okay, frinstance – sociopath starts shit with me. Sociopath is relentless. Depending on how I feel about it that particular day, I might just want to see if I can shut his mouth and teach him a painful lesson. I don’t have to do anything, it’s my option.… Read more »
@kfg An iron fist in a velvet glove where you view yourself as the prize and project raw power with practiced subtlety, isolate and be extremely discrete, and making women qualify themselves to you and chase you IS GAME. It’s not OLD MAN game. It’s GAME. That’s what proper game is SUPPOSED to look like lol Younger guys can “get away” with running sloppy game, but that’s what they’re doing: running sloppy game. What “old man game” is is simply properly following “game” and crossing your Ts and dotting your Is the way you’re supposed to be doing. The problem… Read more »
@Blaximus “I might just want to see if I can shut his mouth and teach him a painful lesson” Well, then you make stupid decisions. lol. And are bad at risk assessment and possibly have a lacking understanding of the legal system. That’s not even an insult that’s just a logical assessment the same way someone who drives drunk is making a stupid decision and bad at risk assessment and hasn’t thought through the potential legal consequences etc. (not to mention the chance of killing someone else) I mean, it would be better if you WERE caving to social pressure… Read more »
@Ya
Lol, of course there’s a term for it. I despair of originality :p
Cool reframe for people who didn’t read the link: “However, guys must understand that once a chick has thrown out one or more AIs in a short period of time (couple minutes), it’s akin to an “approach” for her and a guy not responding to that is like a rejection to her. DO you realize how many chicks any one of us might have rejected in our lifetimes without ever knowing it?”
Basically ScribblerG just rejected that chick without even trying.
“That shit’s for amateurs.” did you really just post a scene from a movie? that DEFINITELY is NOT how it goes down. that’s a movie. i know a lot of dudes who can beat the shit out of people. i box. and ya, the shit you’re saying has some validity in a CLOSED social circle where everyone knows everyone else and it’s at like a house party. in those environments, ya we’ll horse around, get crazy, do whatever we want but in the wider world…. nah man. it only takes one time for someone to have a gun or a… Read more »
“Younger guys can “get away” with running sloppy game, but that’s what they’re doing: running sloppy game.” And older men can’t so much. That’s the difference. The game is the same, the rules are the same, so the strategy is the same, but the “player stats” are different. Different strengths and weaknesses. Tactics adapt. A 20 year old can only “do” James Bond or Sgt. Rock as entertaining schtick. If he tried to do it seriously he’d only look ridiculous. A 50 year old can do it as someone has been there, done that, and is still present because he… Read more »
@scribblerg jan 27 at 12:05p
ok, bro, it’s time for some tough love…lol…
i was going to address some of your ‘issues’ before (when i first got here from CH), but haven’t had time to get into in properly (i don’t have a lot of time right now) but i’m going to make some for you tonight bc this shit is toxic… check back
” It doesn’t matter if you don’t know her. If she’s doing so little as hanging around you when she doesn’t have to, bang, she’s down if you don’t fuck it up.”
“DO you realize how many chicks any one of us might have rejected in our lifetimes without ever knowing it?””
As a younger man I didn’t. My wife’s mate guarding behaviour taught me.
As an older man I am more aware, and thus do it on purpose.
“And older men can’t so much. That’s the difference.” every man can. any guy who just pulls the trigger and escalates and fuck all else will be both sloppy and probably pretty good with women. this is just self-limiting stuff. every man is capable of fucking any woman. every pairing you can think of re: age has happened. and it’s happened in situations that fly in the face of every single limiting belief you have about it. “A 20 year old can only “do” James Bond or Sgt. Rock as entertaining schtick. If he tried to do it seriously he’d… Read more »
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/11/the-mature-man/
I think there is something to this “older man game is harder” idea. Older men are judged even more harshly than younger men because they are expected to have even more success, even more achievements, even more money, simply by virtue of having been on the planet longer. Plus, there are the questions a woman might have. If he’s never been married, she might wonder why. Is there something wrong with him. If he’s divorced, are there children. Does she want to get involved with someone who has kids, etc. So, I think it’s not as simple as it just… Read more »
@Forge the Sky “Cool reframe for people who didn’t read the link: “However, guys must understand that once a chick has thrown out one or more AIs in a short period of time (couple minutes), it’s akin to an “approach” for her and a guy not responding to that is like a rejection to her. DO you realize how many chicks any one of us might have rejected in our lifetimes without ever knowing it?” Basically ScribblerG just rejected that chick without even trying.” This. I try to explain this to guys. Like, that’s her THROWING HERSELF at you, she’s… Read more »
Okay Ya. We just see things a little different. I think people should be able to go about their lives unacosted. I also think that not everyone should run from bullies and assholes all of the time. I can’t quite make out what’s happening in the video, but in my experience, most guys that talk shit can’t back it up. Lol, I’ve never been knocked out like the dude in the street. But, I learned a different life lesson than you did. I take self defense extremely seriously. It’s been one of the BEST decisions I’ve ever made, and I… Read more »
<3 for scray's entire 3:23 pm post. Warms my heart to see how far you've come dude lol
@Blaximus “I think people should be able to go about their lives unacosted.” Unless you decide you don’t like the person, then it’s cool. Will the courts agree? Who knows. But I wouldn’t risk not being able to provide for my family on it. That would be my priority though, you have different ones and that’s cool I legitimately hope you’re always the Vin Diesel in those situations and not the guy unconscious getting his head stomped in lol “I take self defense extremely seriously. It’s been one of the BEST decisions I’ve ever made, and I will always recommend… Read more »
” . . . this is just self-limiting stuff.” I work to limit myself to what I want. Are you under the impression that I’m implying older men can’t get young women? I’ve mentioned a number of times that I have to be careful, because women who open me not infrequently turn out to be under the limit. “”every man is capable of fucking any woman.” But every man is not capable of fucking every woman the same way at the same time. ” . . .only somewhat works for people who naturally ‘LOOK’ like those archetypes.” http://therationalmale.com/2016/01/25/ovulation-dread/#comment-137443 “it works… Read more »
Ya… The bouncer guy you keep referring to? That was me. I bounced in a strip club for 5 years.
I’m not sure what scray means about closed circles and horsing around. This is why I say we are coming at the subject from waaayyy different perspectives. I am talking about wider circles…not people who know each other or something..
Guys calling 6 guys…wha?? Vin diesel??
I’m confused about what you guys mean, so I’m gonna leave it alone now.
@kfg
” Are you under the impression that I’m implying older men can’t get young women?”
no, but you literally just said that older men can’t get away with sloppy game the way younger men can. the field doesn’t bear this out.
“But every man is not capable of fucking every woman the same way at the same time.”
based on what, exactly? how do you know that every single woman doesn’t want to be fucked in the same way at the same time by you?
@Blaximus While I agree guys need to learn to fight, part of learning it is learning what’s worth fighting over and what isn’t. Fighting a drunk dipshit with a bad attitude because his Game sucks and yours doesn’t? Not worth it. Calm him down, enjoy the rest of your evening. I’ve even managed to do it basically every time without once implying that 1) I’d lose 2) I’m scared or 3) anybody needs to lose face. YaReally’s technique is a little different than mine, but his objective is exactly the same as mine: don’t ruin a good evening with a… Read more »
“. . . it’s the perception that they SHOULD have actualized this that is the attractant in comparison to younger guys who haven’t, nor would really be expected to.”
This. Which doesn’t change the game, but it does change the tactics.
” – exactly what women are looking for in a phase of life where their sexual marketability declines . . .”
Although I try to limit myself to what I want and this is over my limit.
@Blaximus “This is why I say we are coming at the subject from waaayyy different perspectives.” Yes, your perspective is old and outdated. That’s not an insult that’s just reality. Unless your stripclub bouncer days were the last 5 years lol You know how we keep talking about how all this social media and smartphone shit has changed things in 2016 with girls? Well guys have changed too. You see how I COMPLETELY give no fucks about your “manly fighting honor code” and just completely ridicule it? Like how I have ZERO “sense of honor as a man” and all… Read more »
“I’m not sure what scray means about closed circles and horsing around.”
i mean that’s where fighting takes on the ‘personal’ nature you’re describing.
out in the world no one gives a fuck about you. no one cares about getting personal.
this isn’t Bushido-land, man. it’s real.
the guys i kno are tough guys. some compete. fighters.
and ALL OF THEM has the same exact attitude about fighting. they will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS just walk away first and ONLY fight if they literally CANNOT get away or run away.
@A Boy’s Guide Well at least your handle is honest… really it amazes me here, CH everywhere young guys, always the young guys, actively arguing against the endless reality 40-50 even 60 YO guys are posting on a regular basis about pulling women 20-30-35 years younger them? Your post is pure KJ stuff. Reality is real. Get over it. Young girl older guy, It’s not common only because guys are not even trying or half assing it when they do try a little bit. Believe me, when you are 40 – 50 – 60 and have some game you are… Read more »
@”based on what, exactly?”
When I walk into a room full of under age girls I don’t know only some of them throw themselves at me, or any other man.
Win the chess world championship, then play the exact same game every time subsequently, and you will never win another game. Because that’s the way shit works.
There is no “perfect” game.
SJF,
From a red pill father of a 14 year old type 1 son, thank you for disclosing the condition. It adds even more value to your already high credibility in my book. You and several others on here do so much for so many.
@Scray: Betas pick fights because they have something to prove. Alphas avoid fights because they have something to lose.
@Sun I agree fully with your take. Maybe it’s just that I’ve dealt with a different caliber of asshole. Ya seems to be talking more along the lines of a guy ” posturing “. I’m talking about a guy that’s made up his mind to take things to blows. I get defusing. In my bouncer days I’ve never had to punch anyone. Not in 5 years. ” Why do you think by their 20s, 30s, or hell even 40s they still haven’t learned? They aren’t going to. Assholes gonna asshole; giving them a fight is just giving them what they… Read more »
@kfg “When I walk into a room full of under age girls I don’t know only some of them throw themselves at me, or any other man.” that doesn’t mean they don’t want to be fucked by you in a certain way at a certain time — the same way as the girls who throw themselves at you do, even. “Win the chess world championship, then play the exact same game every time subsequently, and you will never win another game. Because that’s the way shit works.” if chess were solved, if you played that exact game you’d win every… Read more »
@kfg
“This. Which doesn’t change the game, but it does change the tactics.”
The tactics don’t change. The tactics that the old man is executing are the tactics that the young guy is SUPPOSED to be executing. The old man isn’t running DIFFERENT game, he’s running PROPER game. The young guys are running the same game but missing bits and pieces of it, but the old man isn’t learning some different style of game. It’s all the same shit, he just gets less leeway with being sloppy running the same game that everyone SHOULD be running.
… Just for the record Ya, I LIVE in Blood, Crip and Latin King territory, with a little MS13 thrown in for good measure.
Lol at the ” I don’t know what it’s like ” meme man.
@Blaximus “so they won’t be around to arrest me if I put somebody to sleep.” I don’t know what the bar scene was like in your day but these days the Gang Suppression unit walks through the crowd to remind everyone they’re around and there are multiple cop cars parked outside clubs/bars the second half of the night, espeically at last call when most fights go down as people pile outside and release their frustrations on that guy who was a dick to them earlier etc. “I grew up in the inner city before guns became the go to method… Read more »
@Scray- I figure out that no one gives a fuck about me at age 10.
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/64880330.jpg
@Blaximus
“I’m talking about a guy that’s made up his mind to take things to blows.”
Did that guy just materialize out of thin air angry? Just a fucking magician poofing in front of the guy pissed off and ready to punch him?
No. You’re skipping over the ENTIRE BUILD-UP to that situation that could have been diffused or avoided a dozen different ways. But usually isn’t because guys listen to man-up advice that gets them into that situation where the other guy has made up his mind to take things to blows.
” I don’t know what the bar scene was like in your day but these days the Gang Suppression unit walks through the crowd to remind everyone they’re around and there are multiple cop cars parked outside clubs/bars the second half of the night, espeically at last call when most fights go down as people pile outside and release their frustrations on that guy who was a dick to them earlier etc.”
Lol. Gang Suppression unit???
Like I said….
My day is 1/27/2016. I ain’t under any rock.
oh lawd
well i assume you figured out you aren’t blade or bulletproof too, so it’s your muthafucken set and your philosophy.
“o. You’re skipping over the ENTIRE BUILD-UP to that situation that could have been diffused or avoided a dozen different ways. But usually isn’t because guys listen to man-up advice that gets them into that situation where the other guy has made up his mind to take things to blows.” And VIOLA!!! there’s the disconnect. Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it. No buildup. No real conversation. Different experiences in life. Angry guys are out there man..lol. they don’t just appear out of thin air. Stay close… Read more »
And VIOLA!!! there’s the disconnect. Believe it or nah, there are guys who will just walk up and smash you, if they feel like it. No buildup. No real conversation. Viola is an instrument. Voila is the exclamation you’re looking for. And for the record that wasn’t the kind of situation that came up. Yollo specifically asked about dealing with dudes that get pissed and make it clear they’re itching to fight. Dudes that just walk up and clobber you are another matter altogether, and in all honesty you don’t really get a chance to defuse OR fight those guys.… Read more »