While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.
This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.
When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.
From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.
The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.
Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.
When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.
While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.
Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.
For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.
Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.
It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.
You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.
I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.
True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.
And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.
The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.
Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.
How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.
What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.
Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.
All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?
There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.
The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:
The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?
The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.
And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.
This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.
My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.
The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.
The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.
Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).
Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.
And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.
[…] A Teachable Moment […]
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/justice-or-vengeance-presidential-hopefuls-at-the-starting-line-women-turning-39-israel-may-not-survive-1.3393989/thirty-nine-female-crazy-job-no-partner-no-kids-aaaaaaaaahhhhh-1.3394084
The statement regarding the risk and exposure associated with ‘The Golden Rule’ was key for me. It assumes they will also sacrifice and it assumes their perceived value of your sacrifice matches your perceived value. I’m learning to navigate social interactions, especially with my wife, by assessing the objective value of the exchange rather than the emotional value. It is simply reckless to assume that her perceived value is exactly the same as mine, even after many years together. I like the new paradigm the Red Pill brings. Choices are clearer, outcomes are better and there’s a lot less drama.… Read more »
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
I was going to reply to Divided Line, but I deleted it. I respect him and didn’t want to trample his comments with criticism because he is being sincere in “thinking aloud” in the comments here. I think he’s demonstrating a phase of red pill understanding that a lot of guys go through, myself included. Those thoughts that raced through my head going through those realizations still occasionally surface. When they do, the best outcome is usually a recognition of yet another aspect of my own life, and my own environment, that demonstrates simple truths of it that would otherwise… Read more »
Hah, I just now looked at the image for this post… lol, fantastic.
“You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm. The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.” This was definitely one of the hardest things for me to do, and even now it can be a struggle to avoid slipping back into that mindset or fully embracing nihilism. It’s like trying to do weight lifting properly after years of improper technique; either you… Read more »
There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves. From a historical/inter-cultural perspective… Many more than a few western (or eastern) human explorers died because they put too much into the golden rule… expecting that treating others how… Read more »
Damn. Talk about wanting to be reinserted into the matrix. I guess for some guys the realization is much more harsh considering where they’re coming from. For me personally, once it becomes instinctual to view things from a red pill lens, you never dream of going back. You relish the thought of everyday becoming 1% better and creating your own future. Also, P.S. Rollo, the copyright on your site at the bottom of the page says 2009-2013. Here’s an article for a simple script you can copy and paste to never have to worry about it again. http://www.wpbeginner.com/wp-tutorials/how-to-add-a-dynamic-copyright-date-in-wordpress-footer/ Keep up… Read more »
Well, seeing as I wrote a large reply to that comment 20 minutes before this was posted (Rollo’s reading my mind or some shit), I may as well re-post it here since discussion of all this will probably move. Apologies to those who saw it on the old thread, just scroll on by: @Divided Line Tremendous comment, I think it’s the best description I’ve seen of how a bluepill mindset ‘feels’ like from within once one is redpill aware. A lot of the things you’re describing I went through as well. Maybe I should have written more about them as… Read more »
@Jeremy “I respect him and didn’t want to trample his comments with criticism because he is being sincere in “thinking aloud” in the comments here. I think he’s demonstrating a phase of red pill understanding that a lot of guys go through, myself included. Those thoughts that raced through my head going through those realizations still occasionally surface. When they do, the best outcome is usually a recognition of yet another aspect of my own life, and my own environment, that demonstrates simple truths of it that would otherwise be invisible to me had I not read the manosphere.” Yeah,… Read more »
@Forge
This of course brings up the question… well, when should I have learned these things, and ideally who should have taught me?
For that answer, I keep thinking, “Father”… however I don’t think even a dad can truly “instruct” a kid from first principles on the harsh realities of dealing with women as an adult male. I think dad’s best hope is that his son “strawberries his knees” good and early, so he can do what Rollo did in this post.
In my day to day interactions with colleagues, I realize that the vast majority of men are not ready for the Red Pill, or even if they are, completely unaware of it. * I’d like to see methods and ideas of testing the topic of red pill with other men who could be receptive to it. Or to tell when they aren’t, and not to waste time on them. * For example, I met an old colleague for lunch recently who had recently moved in with his girlfriend. I told him a little bit about my journey, from breaking up… Read more »
“In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism”
I wonder what people that have gone through gender reassignment would say about that. I’m assuming that idealism is probably some artifact of testosterone. I’ve heard some fucked up stuff about women taking testosterone like increased understanding of physics, increased interest in sci-fi. Shit like that. Here’s a couple links.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-caldwell/5-things-i-learned-taking_b_8917498.html
That comment by Divided Line is masterful and Rollo did well to address it. To Divided Line: I think I get where you are coming from. I may still be there. The Golden Rule has its limits – like a pacifist that eventually must use violence if someone tries to use violence in him, you need to Tit-for-Tat against certain undesirable behavior (if you don’t know Game Theory, in the mathematical sense, look up iterated prisoner’s dilemma; there are other Game Theory scenarios and concepts that are useful for a Red Pill man). What is helping me since my RP… Read more »
I am glad you posted this Rollo as I missed DL’s candid and cogent explanation of the struggle that is common to many of us. Given I am one year into Red Pill and 14 years married with kids, I have been struggling with this fundamental issue myself with no safety net. Our relationship now often appears as a cyclical microcosm of what DL said. 1. I establish dominance by attempting to be (depending on circumstances) some combination of indifferent, aloof, cold, selfish & assertive. Though hardly easy or natural, it tends to work. 2. She is mostly submissive and… Read more »
” The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies: For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own. Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right? The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a… Read more »
@jorxster So, I’d like to see someone in the community step up and give pointers on how to test red pill subjects with our fellow men who are still plugged in. With great care. Speaking as someone who was raised in a christian cult, I’m fully versed in the tremendous power of mental resistance to ideas once a mind has suspended critical thinking on a matter. Most wars are begun with significant amounts of human mental resistance to stepping down from a position that is truly ridiculous. There’s a great war series that’s now available on Netflix called “Diaries of… Read more »
@ChocDoc,
Which (of the many) essay from IllimitableMen are you referring to?
Thanks in advance, GW
This confuses me a little bit. There is a sadness for men that the Blue Pill is a lie? To me, the Blue Pill is awful, being treated like an equal is awful — it’s like.. having to be treated like a man even though I’m not, and calling that romance. I have this theory (actually it’s my husband’s theory but I like it) that the Blue Pill is a tribute not to romance or sexual intimacy but to overbearing mothers. From my view it actually spits in the face of intimacy to please the mother who demands worshipers assemble… Read more »
@Jeremy, Agreed. We are all habituated to state rule, which is simply modern serfdom. Governments are responsible for over 95% of all atrocities in the world. The political class is the most pragmatic, ethically bankrupt group of people in society, yet they are worshiped as deities.
@LeeLee: possibly the reason you can’t get the sadness about BP being a lie is that you don’t have the same burden of performance.
The BP ideal isn’t just about being equal (which I think many BP men may not even believe in), but it contains parts about Men being appreciated for their efforts, which Rollo linked to in the post above:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/14/appreciation/
@LeeLee This confuses me a little bit. There is a sadness for men that the Blue Pill is a lie? Yes. The reason is because in blue-pill-idealism-land, a.k.a. “The Happiest Place On Earth”… women are not only *able* to easily empathize with men, but they outright choose to do so when a man has sacrificed for her. The truth that women, in fact, cannot empathize with men and probably wouldn’t default to do so even if they could is a sad cold reality to any man sufficiently invested in blue pill land. It says that everything a man does, the… Read more »
@ GW
Iam speaking from the ” Tuition From Tragedy – Ben’s Story ” essay from IllimitableMen.
A well known yet often heared story.
Idealism and Blue Pill….an explosive mixture !
@LeeLee, I think there is some muddling with the FI marketing and what men falsely believe they can achieve. For example, I never considered women like men, in spite of the social conditioning, and was repulsed by the notion that they should be. The (fallacious) ideal is that if a man commits with honestly, diligence and loyalty to a women he can expect those things in return. I partially agree with your husband’s theory, but it is only a partial explanation. With my prior blue-bill conditioning, I was still, on occasion, a contextual alpha, and played the part well (unconsciously… Read more »
I forgot some juicy details above….that supports Rollo’s other claims (“They will find you”)
The gal mentioned above was unexpected, uninvited, and had told the hotel staff that she was staying with me to obtain a key. The room was dark (though not so dark that my roommate didn’t see what was happening) and I was sound asleep when she perpetrated all of this.
@GW
Stop, reverse the genders:
Thanks ChocDoc
@IAS Well put! It is sad when one finds one of the biggest assumptions one made about life, which one made many sacrifices and put in much effort, is fallacious and much of that effort and sacrifice will have no payback. Yeah, that hurts!!
@Jeremy Exactly, though she was surely a 7 (8 if not for a scar on forehead from childhood) and was, sort of, seeking consent. 🙂
@Rollo and others: from the myriad BP “ideal” lies, which one causes you more sadness not to be true? In other words, if you could apply a “patch” to address one “bug/feature” of the female hardware/firmware, what would you patch?
I’m guessing the “bug/feature” of solipsism that allows a woman to abandon a terminally ill husband and branch swing without even a blemish on their conscience. I personally find that pretty harsh. I get why it was selected for during evolution, but still.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/03/war-brides/
@leelee, haha. Your comment, as good intentioned as it may be, reads like a woman trying to be a nurturing mother to us unpluggers. Please wait in the lobby. Why? Cause this isn’t about you, but your words are: “This confuses [[me]] a little bit. There is a sadness for men that the Blue Pill is a lie? To [[me]], the Blue Pill is awful, being treated like an equal is awful — it’s like.. having to be treated like a man even though [[I’m]] not, and calling that romance. [[I]] have this theory (actually it’s [[my]] husband’s theory but… Read more »
I’m adapting a dual idealism… one for society at large and one for my interpersonal relationships with women. Women are off the pedestal, but that doesn’t mean that my idealism for other aspects of life must be burned down with it. I respect hypergamy it has sustained the species to this day, but I will not be victim to it.
@ IAS
Quiet many patches are needed, cause there are a lot of bugs to fix.
Here’s my ranking of the female Bugs/Feature that bothers me most.
1) opportunistic love
2) Strong solipsism to justify every bull****
many more of course…but these 2 bugs/features are really annoying.
My journey was much like Forge’s or DL’s, though I luckily got to the finish line quicker. At the time all I could see was that things for me were starting to go horribly wrong and I didn’t know why, or how to fix, because I too thought I was “doing everything right” but it was all backfiring and the abyss loomed. While my progress has had its steps forward and occasionally back, at least I “got” that I was now seeing how the world really worked, and I had better get used to it fast. Encounter, adapt, overcome. What… Read more »
Maybe another way of thinking of it, apols to anyone in the thread who already said it, haven’t read through all comments. While it’s useful to have a rational understanding of hypergamy and female behaviors, and the male behaviors that repel / draw women based on their hardwired responses, it’s not useful to try to apply principles of logic and justice to it. We can say it’s not fair that it is men (other than those who are naturally Alpha) who should suppress normal-feeling, responsible, “romantic” behaviors in order to avoid triggering a subconscious, hindbrain rejection response in women, and… Read more »
@IAS & @Jeremy — Okay, I think I get it. The sadness is that women not only aren’t the magical beings of virtue that the FI says we are, we’re truly deeply flawed in ways that are difficult for men to connect with or even believe?
@Lee Lee:
No. The sadness is that you don’t understand the sadness.
I went back and reread Sister’s Keeper and with what you say here it does sound like women have no real moral agency. That in theory they could but that we cannot expect it, akin to running across bigfoot in the forest. If they are so completely and totally controlled by their firmware can we expect anyrhing that ever deviates from that? Now clearly society judges men constantly for adhering to his firmware. Would not a more natural state be a man acrion in total compliance to that firmware, and what would that base state of man look like if… Read more »
@LeeLee Try not to think of it as a flaw, or else you’re comparing women to mans ideal female. “Blue Pill” only works because men are taught to idealize women in ways contrary enough to reality that it allows the men to accept their own subjugation. But in that fantasy, the men were promised something that is literally impossible, something they would otherwise never get from women, true appreciation for their sacrifice. Try to imagine yourself as a young boy. This is much easier said than done. You’ve got more energy than any adult around you, more energy than any… Read more »
In Divided Line’s comment, he (apols if I’m mischaracterizing) hates Red Pill at the same time he recognizes it works, or, more precisely, he hates that Red Pill is necessary in order to have a relationship with a woman where she respects you, making Red Pill a sort of necessary evil. And there’s some envy (and awe) of women and their sexuality being at once hypocritical and natural, the mountain that men can come to honestly and be rejected, or trick into coming to them and be rewarded. Before we envy women too much, think about what male sexuality has… Read more »
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsflgC7AmyCi3yx-_20rH5hOjkAfHwipEJc0S9aird8mStmniuFg
It all starts somewhere
Divided Line really wants to hold on tight though.
There’s a lot of good stuff to respond to in the OP as well. Good article, Rollo. Basically you’re using this as a case study to stitch together a few different concepts you’ve elucidated before. “The capacity for women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.’ [….] “Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually… Read more »
It angers me as well. I cannot love a woman how I planned on wanting to love her, thanks to the red pill. Instead, we must satisfy their feral selection requirements. By the way, I don’t think the selection of alpha cads is in anyway a bug of evolution as some have written. The possibility of societal destruction and rebuilding would always necessitate the hindbrain to maintain a supply of physical alphas in the gene pool. Your average computer science, narrow-framed programmer may appear to be the proper selection for our modern economy, yet the risk of a rebuild will… Read more »
@jorxster “So, I’d like to see someone in the community step up and give pointers on how to test red pill subjects with our fellow men who are still plugged in.” In my experience it’s almost impossible to approach the subject unless the man has recently gone through severe trauma that he has no prescription for. I’ve tried many, many times with family and friends to approach the subject directly, and have had little success. So many men are so heavily invested in the old set of books, they have to see their world burning before them before their minds… Read more »
@nastymate
They also get just enough feedback from women to keep trying that you can’t really get them to see anything you may have to talk about.
You’ll probably get dismissed as having trouble meeting or getting along with women.
“The more you suffer, the more it shows your really care, right? Yehehea.”
belay my last. it’s this one:
@Jeremy When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it? You might say “thanks honey, I appreciate it,” but most likely you think it’s a throwaway BS flip-the-script guilt-trip argument (or possibly even a waste of time and money and an excuse for hedonism, rather than a sacrifice); in Western society there are many reasons for a woman to want to look good other than to please her man. You might think… Read more »
@Duderick Budrick When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it? Actually that is a pure manipulation, but you know this already I think. What is being done there is the woman is throwing things out that she should be doing anyway, for her own self-interest, and recharacterizing them as some kind of “grand sacrifice” for the betterment of the man in her life. The equivalent would be a man saying, “See… Read more »
@Duderick Budrick When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it? Actually that is a pure manipulation, but you know this already I think. What is being done there is the woman is throwing things out that she should be doing anyway, for her own self-interest, and recharacterizing them as some kind of “grand sacrifice” for the betterment of the man in her life. The equivalent would be a man saying, “See… Read more »
@Duderick Budrick When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it? When a woman states something like that, try the opposite. Tell her I don’t like it when you do your make up. I don’t like it when you hit the gym. I want you as you are right now in the nude. Without make up, without you having to tone up for anything, just for me. This is how I like… Read more »
@Divided Line i read your comment on the other thread…at first i thought you were actually a girl…lol…then, i thought you were trying to troll…then, i realized that i had been away from newbie red pill converts for so long that it kind of surprised me…i had forgotten what it’s like to be on the cusp of red pill acceptance…lol…so, i apologize for that… congratulations! on at least attempting to choke down the red pill. it’s not easy (in the same way that learning another language is not easy), but it’s definitely doable…and you are just about there…and you are… Read more »
In essence a male who lacks self respect and confidence follows the path of martyrdom in order to appeal to women, in spite of history proving such sacrifice only adds to his lack of value.
@Jeremy: “The power to bring new life into the world is greater than this, and that power is reserved to the women.” I’d like to see one, show me. No. Really. Sit one down in front of me and have her show me. I’ll wait. She’s likely to get upset by the affair, because she knows she can’t, but doesn’t want you to know she can’t. That knowledge robs her of her power. @Shameful: “Would not a more natural state be a man acrion in total compliance to that firmware, and what would that base state of man look like… Read more »
@Matt
“The possibility of societal destruction and rebuilding would always necessitate the hindbrain to maintain a supply of physical alphas in the gene pool.”
YaReally will probably be along to correct you on this limiting belief (alpha’s are only physical studs = ‘just lift, bro…’), but the only thing a girl’s hindbrain really cares about is whether or not you know how to get her into bed/sex…bc then she gets a sexy son in 9 months…a ‘computer nerd’ with good game is perfectly capable of banging hard 10s…
good luck!
@Having a Bad Day:
In favor of my own.
Thank you Rollo Tommassi
I agree with Divided Line. There is no particular glory in satisfying some girl’s primitive hindbrain. The problem I see with all this Red Pill absolutism is this. We constantly hear about the Feminine Imperative and how it dominates and control everything and has done so for 1,000 years. But that’s simply not true. For much, perhaps most, of human history it simply didn’t matter what girls liked or wanted. Nobody knew and nobody gave a damn. Only after the sexual revolution and liberated, consequence-free sex for women have we really had to deal with what women want, sexually speaking.… Read more »
@Lucien “Let’s say you were a smart, decently good looking but somewhat modest girl. Knowing that guys lost their minds over pornstars and bimbos, would you set out to turn yourself into one? That would be foolish. You would take some strategic steps to make sure you appealed to a man, but you would not make it the organizing principle of your life. At least, you shouldn’t.” Are culture has made that alone the way Romans treated gladiators. As pornstars thy where envied and admonished because they could do things the average male couldn’t. Yet they suffered and died at… Read more »
Men have always had to perform. That is nothing new. What is new (relatively speaking) is society’s removal of almost all the historic incentives for men to perform. Yet most plod on regardless hoping against hope. Society used to provide men certain benefits in acknowledgement of the enormous sacrifices of being a responsible husband, father, and community member.: respect, a certain amount of deference, property rights and male-only spaces. Those are all gone, but men are still expected to live up to historic responsibilities. I’m amazed any guys still get married.
@Lucien: ” . . . it simply didn’t matter what girls liked or wanted.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U89tw093s_Y
http://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/#comment-136402 @kfg. That’s the most succinct way to put it. @LeeLee : Men and women experience the world differently. Since the woman’s world view is solipsistic, it wouldn’t allow her to picture emotional states in third person the way men do. It would be like trying to walk north, when you’re standing on north pole – you just can’t do it. Here’s one analogy (don’t know if it will work). Imagine yourself in a mystical amazonian world filled with women, with the exception of one man – your husband. All women start at the same point and the same age,… Read more »
@LeeLee – Men are upset that the Blue Pill is a lie because if true, it would allow lower value men to still have desire sex. It’s that simple. They want women to desire them without having to be desirous. It’s even worse if you think about it from a PUA point of view. Generating a woman’s interest, attraction and arousal is non-trivial and takes really paying attention to the women. In fact, you kind of actually have to really desire her, as in a way, women are testing men for true desire too when they are selecting. It takes… Read more »
After being fed the blue pill with a spoon full of sugar.Then being shamed and ostracized for any display of masculinity they set me loose on the world like Parcifal.To be exploited kicked and beaten for my ideals.To finaly resemble an alpha chump.Upon learning about the red pill everything made sense and I could no longer blame anyone myself included for living a lie that was so well perpetrated.The red pill went down that easy.but the blue pill is like trying to remove a treble hook without ripping the guts out.Like pulling a splinter it hurts but leaving it in… Read more »
@Forge – Your comment is epic. Just take a look at any 40 yr old overweight women who men treat like she is invisible – is not male sexual nature just as cruel in its own way? @Duderick – Your observation about male agency is also brilliant, men have an innate ability to be actors in the world which women have to work harder to generate. Of course, for men who’d rather play 40 hours of video games a week and LARP on manosphere and mentally masturbate, well, the very idea of their own agency shames them so they suppress… Read more »
@Stuffin – What Rollo is offering us is the step to take from where you stand. I get it, it’s a mindfuck for sure but once you’ve gotten that you have to ask yourself the following questions: 1. How long will I wallow in self-pity upon this realization? 2. So what? Really – so fucking what? Part of the Blue Pill idealism and equalism is this idea that things should be fair and just – horseshit. Why shouldn’t you live a life that is full of suffering and deceit? Why not you? Why are you so special that you shouldn’t… Read more »
When men discovered that the earth was round not flat navigators didn’t bitch and moan about revising maps and having to design tools to accommodate the nature of the earths geography.
Rollo has distilled the nature of the female and armed with that information you have the power to construct you life however you want and fashion tools to market his possible and yet you bitch and moan and whine.
I hate male pussies
When John Harrison invented a method for navigating east-west accurately, they moaned plenty about it involving a timepiece rather than a ‘more elegant’ purely astronomical measure.
@LeeLee – Also, you last post on shame, apologizing and mercy was incredibly insightful and honest. I’ve never seen apologizing described in the way that you did in that post. You have surprising self-awareness and compassion for a woman and I bet that is a result of you being with a dominant, strong man you feel submissive to, yes? I’m starting to think that women are bitches so often because they don’t feel safe being otherwise and don’t have that protective dominance only a man can give them. Submission must be so delicious for a woman. As for me, I… Read more »
@Scribb
Thanks man my first mode of self improvement will be getting some much needed rest,then maybe a long ride on the scooter.It’s hard not to see her as a monster when she monster fucked my legs off Saturday night.
But realy I totaly agree with your points I just don’t see whats next and to tired to realy give a shit right now.
From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.
Yep. But we ain’t playin’ “Should’ves”. For any man older that his early teens, Shit Gets Real, fast. You can be the Car Crash or you can be the Backlash. Your choice.
Being Red Pill doesn’t mean one shouldn’t invest efforts in Blue Pill goals. He shouldn’t expect the result to be ideal, but that doesn’t exclude him from wanting the same goals as one living in a BP paradigm.
Example: Not being being an equalist, doesn’t mean a man doesn’t expect/want a woman to bring money in the family, what it means is that you don’t expect the woman to make just as much as you, but you still want her to make some money.
I posted a while back to yareally and some other guys. Sorry I can’t remember your names. I can never remember the names of things. Today I couldn’t remember what a bagel was called, so i just asked for “3 bread donuts”. I haven’t made much progress as my issue is more one of location and motivation than PUA. However, I’ve narrowed down on what I need to get past that. I have been getting a lot of iois from girls. Not 100% sure why. Problem is they are all in passing, such as when a girl walked all the… Read more »
@Hank
I think the fastest way is to study and get a career that is valued overseas. Or if you can set goals and motivate yourself, pick up development skills like web or app development, then you could even work remotely from anywhere in the world.
in my case, I’m not even 30 yet but could get a job in almost any (modern) country in the world, (europe, asia, south america, etc). That’s after 5 years of highly specialized IT developer (and I’ve never been to Uni, either.)
So here’s the paradox according to FI.
We (men) are to be trained by them (women) to be BP.
Yet when fully trained in said dynamic, the trainers (women) then turn on us (men) and yearn for A MAN.
Interesting.
If you look at it as an instinctual weeding process, it does’t look like a paradox.
@Hank:
If you’re looking for a relationship where your dedication, loyalty and love are returned in kind, you can still have one, you just need to look in the right place. Get a large breed, male dog and you will find exactly the bond and level of reciprocation you are looking for. Keeps its mouth shut, will love you and stick by you no matter what, always happy to see you, takes immense pleasure in even the smallest things you do for it. When this all boils down to for me is comparing where I am now to where I was… Read more »
And an off-topic observation concerning the dominance of the female imperative. If hypergamy is winning, and women are out there riding the alpha cock carousel and generously rewarding the Alphas, bad boys, douchebags and jerks with pussy time – why is the first generation of males birthed by these women the biggest bunch of pussies in human history? You can blame the feminized culture to some extent, and the comfort and ease provided by the West, but even physiologically there is a noticeable increase of scrawny, slack-shouldered, oval faced kids. The only thing I am seeing change is they are… Read more »
@having a bad day – welcome (back?) to the TRM comments threads..the water’s fine!
I’ve been realizing recently that Red Pill awareness matches very closely with Objectivism. It ties in with idealism (both the vulnerability and the strength), our definition of alpha, and our emphasis on reality. From Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand): Metaphysics: objective reality Red Pill awareness is about accepting reality for what it is. Epistemology: reason The title of this blog is “The Rational Male”… Ethics: self-interest This is the definition of alpha, having yourself as your mental point of origin. It has also been described as enlightened self-interest, both on this blog and in Objectivist books. From http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/19/the-cardinal-rule-of-relationships/: Rollo Tomassi wrote: This is… Read more »
@Hank holiday – good on you for reaching out and asking for help. If you check out YaReally’s archive I think he’s answered variations of your questions before. Basically if it’s important enough to you, I’m sure you CAN find a way. Like we can’t give you specific advice without knowing details about where you live, what work you do etc and it’s not advisable to post that information online. But I refuse to believe you literally can’t move to another state where there are more girls you like and get a job at McDonalds if you REALLY wanted to… Read more »
@DeNihilist (January 19th, 2016 at 1:14 am ) “So here’s the paradox according to FI. We (men) are to be trained by them (women) to be BP. Yet when fully trained in said dynamic, the trainers (women) then turn on us (men) and yearn for A MAN. Interesting.” Is it a paradox or just covert communication that men “just don’t get” (and women don’t really get either). BP acceptance of equal opportunity before the law for voting, property rights, and economic opportunity for women is now part of society, and it is a fixture of how men relate to women… Read more »
Love these kind of posts, they have the effect on me of reminding how I got into the Red Pill.
The first text I read and realised something was wrong with the world was “Confessions of a Reformed InCel” by whoism3, and from there I found TRM.
We are blessed to have the Internet and be able to find answers to these “failures on the matrix” when we occasionally see them. Our brothers in the 80s weren’t so lucky
Interesting post. I have had this mental debate with myself since learning game 6 years ago. The internal monologue goes something like this: “Why do I have to be such a dick just to keep her interested?” Two things: first, you attract the girls in your life you want and game is a tool for that. Deciding to stay or go should be your decision not hers. Secondly, and this is from recent experience, I met a girl while traveling recently who because of how I gamed her: neg, push/pull, teasing, then comfort, then escalating, then teasing—kept her intrigued and… Read more »
@walawala – Great insights about how to get a woman interested instead of focusing on our interest. I do have a question though. What do you think you could have done differently to have fucked her?
lol a whole post schooling DL in RP, funny but nothing new here. Hes been posting here for a while too, thought he was way past that stage.
“Right… This is not some random behavior. It’s all aimed at tapping into a woman’s biological need to be dominated.”
I don’t see any dominance in what you wrote on that fr….
@Scribble Good question. In this case, I think I could have been EVER more of a dick and not been so…as she put it “A beast”. I think once I made it clear I wanted to bang her, I should have pulled back. That or more time. Comfort it needed. Comfort is about either time, or calibration or both. This one happened also to be married so needed a sense of longing. After I left she immediately started texting about when and where we could meet next. Her ASD went up and she wanted to feel more in control. She… Read more »
@Culum “@having a bad day – welcome (back?) to the TRM comments threads..the water’s fine!” yea, i got sick of the stack over there…and the ‘non-nested’ comments here suck less than that, so here i am…lol…(even though i like most of the guys over there and i think they are right about most of that stuff) plus, like YaReally says it’s changed in the last 6 months or so…i think the term is ‘virtue-signalling’…lol…it’s become less about red-pill men self-improving and more about feeding the red-pill confirmation bias… without the corresponding calls to action (at least on the political/racial topics)).… Read more »
Glenn Frey passed, sigh…Always liked the Eagles and him. Here’s an Eagle’s tune that always got me going. Straight up rock and roll.
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tcXblWojdM&w=560&h=315%5D
Great article and I appreciate the thoughtful comments. For me, it’s just about trying to find a way to get past the anger. It’s just counter productive and feels like baggage at this point. I was turned on to the Red Pill maybe a year and a half ago, and it’s just been the anger phase ever since. Now it’s just about accepting it for what it is and getting on with it. Anger and cynicism are like self-pity: They’re like security blankets. What I’m going to try instead is trusting that whatever new goal appears on the horizon will… Read more »
@Duderick B.
I like your comment. Good way of putting it. Very interesting that the same thing stated slightly differently, a change of angle of frame really, makes it much easier to implement. I have to keep my wife under control with spending $ on clothing or she would consume all of our disposable income buying clothes “for me”. LOL
@kfg i’m not sure what you’re trying to say with that photo – either agreeing with me and providing an example… or disagreeing and providing an example…lol…(mostly bc i don’t know what it is exactly…it looks like some girls being punished for being nazi ‘collaborators’?…) so, i realized that the photo is triggering me like a Rorschach test…lol… if that’s what the photo is, i see 2 things – 1) game works and 2) the competition anxiety/jealousy (butthurt) is strong in women who have ‘settled’… if those girls in the photo ‘collaborated’ with nazi ‘alpha studs’, they did it IN… Read more »
@RedJoker “Selflessness is only a virtue if you’re operating in a Christian philosophy. In objectivism, selflessness is evil. As we know, women feel no arousal for the selfless man.” http://www.worldcat.org/title/outsider/oclc/606763919 Very damn true coming from someone who used to put emphasis on being selfless. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NoAzpa1x7jU What makes this even more relevant. Is that in takes away the burden of performance. That’s something I had to keep learning. But Rollo was and is a great help in allowing it to become second nature. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8eo70JkZV30 @Divided line “Anger and cynicism are like self-pity: They’re like security blankets. What I’m going to try… Read more »
walawala Right… This is not some random behavior. It’s all aimed at tapping into a woman’s biological need to be dominated. Exactly. Women are not men. Men are not women. Women are not men who can have babies. Men are not defective women. Many men who consider themselves unplugged are actually still carrying some of this Blue Pill junk in their head, back in the “premises” or “assumptions” part. Men often respond badly to attempts at domination by other men. Therefore it is easy to assume, under the “she’s just like me” model that it is mean or even cruel… Read more »
Idealism has to be a biologically rooted feature of male heterosexuality because we’re typically attracted to the ones we protect. Female heterosexuality must be rooted in opportunism because they’re typically attracted to the protector. We fight the wars and they play war bride and fuck whoever wins. We marry the dictates of our sexual firmware to idealism while women marry the dictates of their sexual firmware to admiration. We look down on the object of sexual desire, they look up to the object of theirs. The one we protect has no burden of performance. They are permitted to be weak.… Read more »
@Jeremy I appreciate your point. Women (current research suggests) only have a slightly larger impact on the gene pool than men do because of mitochondria, which is inherited from the mother only (or, according to some research, almost exclusively). However, there is also research suggesting the father is more important in some ways. Below is a link to one theory. Your general point has some validity, but to say men are irrelevant to the gene pool and we don’t have offspring is not quite accurate. What we (historically especially) do have, is less certainty about a kid being ours and… Read more »
Amy Schumer (movie trainwreck) does a lot of stand up comedy about being a slut. On network TV she said when she sees Bradley Cooper she grabs her ankles and says “any hole”. So how did she react when a 17 year old nerd spent some time talking to her and the tweeted: Spent the night with @amyschumer. Certainly not the first guy to write that. Did she: 1) Ignore 2) Shame 3) Agree and Amplify 4) Get Angry 5) Forgive While you are thinking about that, Amy, 34, now has boyfriend, 29. Would you guess he is alpha or… Read more »
“It’s a pretty grim, disappointing, and shabby world women have created…” I have a bit different take. Women are absolutely culpable in our present misandrist society but they’ve had an abundance of ‘help’… – Legislators – Divorce lawyers – Family law judges – Owners of child support servicing companies – Partners of PR/lobbying firms advocating for these institutions – CEOs of companies whose products are being consumed by women – Advertising firms making misandrist commercials to appeal to the consumers of these products. All predominately male… not white-knighting, but feeding off the carcasses of destroyed men by advocating, enabling, facilitating,… Read more »
LostInThePlantation
“I watched it happen to my Alpha grandad who lived to 94 and spent the last 30 years of his life without any sex supply after decades of screwing his young university students. It tortured him for all those 30 years – dude used to hit on my girlfriends.”
You’re worrying me a little here………….
@GW Your general point has some validity, but to say men are irrelevant to the gene pool and we don’t have offspring is not quite accurate. Thankfully for both of us, I didn’t say that. I was actually speaking to LeeLee, who as a woman has trouble understanding why men might feel sad about the blue pill being bullshit. To explain things in a way a woman might understand, I was forced to exaggerate the fundamental difference that men and women have, that women have been trained to ignore. That difference comes down to the fact that any mother regardless… Read more »
@having a bad day – now we just need Sentient here (wala, scray and YaReally all here already). Not sure why the stack is so hard on you – it’s a bit unpredictable but I get all my short posts and a lot of long posts through when using Firefox. But the atmosphere certainly a lot more civil and analytical about studying red pill dynamics here.. Speaking of which (esp if you had something on Islam and social media etc) you (and everyone else) should really be reading Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) blog if you’re not already. Guy obviously… Read more »
“As with dogs, who if they cannot identify the pack leader, willl try to lead the pack – a woman who can’t feel that a man is leading her, will try to lead. ”
Agreed. They’re totally like dogs. lol. Hilarious and True.
“So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission?”
I do. I love that shit. Embrace your masculinity.
@DeNihilist “So here’s the paradox according to FI. We (men) are to be trained by them (women) to be BP. Yet when fully trained in said dynamic, the trainers (women) then turn on us (men) and yearn for A MAN. Interesting.” They yearn for a MAN, because it’s always should be the MAN who should use, manipulate, dominate and lead…not conversely. That’s the natural order. Due to Idealism we men have tried to forget what the natural order is!! Men are the premier sex. We always have been. But we have become lazy due to modern way of life. Instead… Read more »
“The one we protect has no burden of performance. They are permitted to be weak. But this isn’t true for the one we count on to protect us.” The women we protect do have a burden of performance unique to females and that is to reproduce the species. In many part of the world to say a woman is childless is akin to calling her a whore. Within the female matrix a married woman outranks the unmarried one and a woman with children outranks the barren. In the west however, women collectively are failing their burden of performance by not… Read more »
@Chump No More I agree. It’s what we’ve always been doing. Men always fall into a hierarchy of winners and losers while they compete for whatever it is they believe women want and expect of them. The answer – if there is one – is for men to recognize this, stop being divided and conquered, and unite against women politically and socially. If men could win that battle and advance their own interests, women would benefit anyway, since they’re happier being led. That’s probably what religiously institutionalized monogamous marriage was. Traditional marriage might have been a shitty deal for men,… Read more »
Women have an option of performance, and they will literally restructure the laws and narrative of a society to maintain their prerogative for it.
If they choose to perform, great, but they reserve the option to not perform and still be held to the same standard.
Women have an OPTION of performance
This is gold, let me highlight the key word for those who read too fast.
@Having a Bad Day: “…it looks like some girls being punished for being nazi ‘collaborators’?…”
Right. War Brides. Women whose chief misfortune was that the invading alphas they hooked up with were displaced by a second wave of invading alphas while they were still alive.
And that’s just the grossest example of it. A more subtle version can be found in the phrase; “Overpaid, oversexed and over here.”