Women ‘Improving’ Men

Improving_men

“I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

I had this comment offered in a recent thread. It’s a common gripe from women who believe they’re in some way Red Pill and want to divert their new acceptance of Red Pill truths to serve the same tired ends of the Feminine Imperative. The operative, of course, is always whose definition do we base the measure of ‘improvement’ on? For most women the term ‘improvement’ always aligns with whatever best serves a female sexual strategy – because from a feminine-solipsistic perspective whatever serve women should necessarily serve men.

As with most uneducated women’s concerns I’d already addressed this long ago in The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill:

A lot gets made of the Dark Triad or the Dark Side of Game where a skillful player can sadistically use his newly learned red-pill super powers for evil instead of for the greater good of mankind. Game-aware women – the ones who have been forcibly exhausted of all pretense of maintaing the illusion that Game is a lie – feel as though it’s owed to them, in their concession of Game’s reality, that Men should use Game to women’s benefit. Even to the last effort women still cling to the tools of a feminized acculturation;

“Yeah, OK, you got us, Game is really what women want, Hypergamy is the law of womankind, but now it’s your responsibility that you use it for the better benefit of society by molding a new breed of improved Betas to accommodate fem-centric monogamy. You owe us our security for having admitted to the grand illusion that’s kept you in thrall for so long.”

It’s an indictment of Game-aware women, and sympathizing men, that they should feel a need to delineate some aspects of Game into good camps (pro woman, pro feminized monogamy) and bad camps (manipulative, polygynous, male-centered). Even in the admission of the truth that Game has enlightened Men of, the feminine imperative still seeks to categorize the application of Game to its own end. That Men might have some means of access to their own sexual strategy is too terrible a Threat; Game must be colored good or bad as it concerns the imperatives of women and a fem-centric societal norm.

As the default, socially correct and virtuous concern, women have an easier time of this. As Game becomes increasingly more difficult to deny or misdirect for the feminine, the natural next step in accepting it becomes qualifying its acceptable uses. While hypergamy is an ugly truth, the characterization of it becomes “just how women are” –an unfortunate legacy of their evolution. However for Men, the characterizations of the harsher aspects of Game in its rawest form  (contingencies for hypergamy) are dubbed “the dark arts”.

In her trolling ignorance she fails to understand that she and many “Red Pill Women” before her all want a better Beta. They want a Beta with a side of Alpha – in essence a better slave; one that’s just ignorant enough of female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies their need for amused mastery, masculine dominance (when it’s convenient and affirming), and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needs to be made aware of women’s nature.

The difference in this case is that the ostensibly “Red Pill” woman now looks to the manosphere’s best and brightest to provide them with such men via some distortion of Red Pill social proof. Not only that, but, in their entitled hubris, they are all too willing to pander to exactly the male idealistic nature I described in the last post. Their appeal is to Red Pill aware men’s sense of duty, honor or integrity in mentoring other Blue Pill Beta men (the ones they hope to improve) in an acceptable Purple Pill fashion – just enough ‘self-improvement’ to serve women’s sexual strategies, but just enough watered down ignorance of women’s feral nature to serve as what they believe would be their ‘right guy’.

You’re just not a “Man” if you don’t promote a feminine reviewed and approved version of the Red Pill to other men.

Many of the wives and women that participate in formerly Red Pill married forums follow this invasion into that previously male space and then turn it to similar ends.

The worst part of this bastardization of course is that they only need to encourage the parts of Red Pill awareness that serves their ends. They feel entitled to Red Pill men educating the plugged-in in how to become the ‘improved’ men they believe they deserve. Thus it’s an easy bandwagon to get aboard so long as their redefinition of what actually is Red Pill jives with what they feel is their due in men.

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

The ideal situation for Red Pill women here is to have a group of respected Red Pill men educate the next generation of plugged-in men to provide the attractive aspects of this awareness while stifling the uncomfortable threatening aspects that might require women to actually prove their own worthiness of those men.

Sexy Psychopaths

My good friend Dagonet had a bit of a misguided hope in this tweet today:

https://twitter.com/TheQuestForever/status/686981982014668800

Once again, male idealism gets the better of one of our own. I wish it were in fact the case that women’s innate, evolved Hypergamy could be overridden so they would find men’s higher-order virtues and ideals to be arousing and attractive. This, however, is not the reality we are dealing with.

Reader Gregg brought up an interesting, and as you’ll read timely, comment about why Dag is in error:

Men think that women want “confident, strong” men. Why do we think that way? Because women told us so, or we have read it in some “wise” 500 pages psychology book. Our old provider needs to believe this, so that he has some “noble” manly goal he can pursue. Of course it is very beneficial for women to have STRONG, CONFIDENT slave that protect her. Put aside our male ego, our goals and aspirationas when we want to understand women. They know that our male ego will side with them, will help them in their game. Unhampered by ego, woman can easily enslave man like that.

Male ego tells us – we have to be strong and confident..cos it is “manly”, it’s “respectable” and women SHOULD respect that! So it is a given that they respect that! While in reality…nothing is further from the truth. She wants strong and confident men as her protecting slaves but she tingles and craves for emotionally unstable man. Like attracts the like. Is Tyler Durden a strong, confident man? He is unstable, knows weak spot of women, he can live in a moment, is more unpredictable than woman. He is emotionally intelligent, more so than typical women. He behaves more like a woman than like a man. Therefore he HAS POWER over them! Is Mystery a strong, confident man? Anyone who’s read “the Game” knows how he was driven mad by one, single chick.

What are the traits of men, women are madly enslaved to? Is it confidence, is it strenght? NOPE. It is unpredictability, unstability, emotional COLDNESS, psychopathy! In this case he is more unstable than her, so SHE is trying to fix the relationship, she is trying to give them some rules, some stability, some “security”. She must do all the work, otherwise there is nothing. She fills the void. He who cares less…..

We still do not want to confess hard, dark truth about women and about ourselves. We still talk about this burden of performance, confidence, strenght, emh..POSITIVE masculinity. We still discuss with women, try to persuade them with logic, try to impress them with our “performance”, knowledge, experience. So can our man with innate need to perform rule/care less about, the realtionship? How? He is enslaved by his very need to perform which performance will be judged by women!

Ultimate lotharios are neither strong, nor confident. They behave more like women than like men. They do not feel the need to perform, to protect, to build, to be confident, to answer, to be responsible. Take Charlie Sheen as an example. This man is emotionally damaged, unstable, irresponsible, weak. Majority of women are much more stable than him. Yet he has fucked more then 5000 of them. You think it is due to his fame? I am sure each of us know weak men, psychopatic men with no fame, yet with harems of women.

It is still the same…discussion of slaves how to be worthy of women. Maybe mentality, maybe genetics, do not know which one more. And new generations of lambs arises…primed for slaughter as the last. We are loosing my friends, big time.

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’ll drop a two of the responding comments before I do. YaReally provides some counterbalance here:

YaReally:

And here we come to two different results because Gregg isn’t entirely inaccurate that a lot of fucked up damaged dudes are catnip for girls (and not just damaged fucked up girls, hi madonna/whore complex). Whenever we get two different results we have to drill deeper to find the commonality.

It comes down to the guy having an emotional impact on the girl. It doesn’t matter whether you make her feel good or bad emotions (ideally you make her feel both at various times), all that matters is that you have emotional impact on her. The damaged basketcase hot & cold guy who treats her like a princess one minute then tells her to fuck off because his life is falling apart the next is giving her a full range of emotions. So is the super confident guy with his shit together who’s running push/pull on her.

The biggest thing no one will talk about because it sets guys on a bad path is how fucked up and falling apart your life can really BE and you can still attract and keep hot poon around. Ideally we want men to go the TRP route where they build their careers and hit the gym and don’t booze it up etc. But the reality is you can be a fucking MESS and still get hot girls, as long as you have emotional impact on them. It’s why chicks will whore themselves out for ugly pimps and go back to abusive relationships, and on the flip side it’s why they’ll leave dependable boring guys who give them an emotional flatline day to day.

Personally I think that in the old days a chick had a baby at an early enough age to fulfill her need for crazy emotional impact drama to keep her happy and not craving it, but these days since they don’t want kids till they’re 30+ they fill that voice with the cock carousel, cats, Eat Pray Love adventures, hundreds of hours of Netflix (shows/movies full of emotional ups and downs), fucking guys like me, etc.

And finally I’m going to paraphrase SJF’s comment here for another perspective:

What makes you think “lothario” is the kind of man some of us want to be? (although I’m not sure if you are advocating being one or not.) A lothario is an unscrupulous seducer of woman. Unscrupulous means having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair.

Just because a man has an innate desire (not need) to perform, doesn’t mean he is enslaved. The Rational Male certainly confesses/explicates/describes truths about women and ourselves. Some of us aren’t shackled by knowledge of the burden of performance and having confidence, strength and positive masculinity. Some of us have found that not to be a burden. To be a low hurdle to real power. With low downside and potentially huge upside.

As an aside here I would also point out that Gregg’s focus on men’s Burden of Performance is entirely on serving women’s interests rather than a natural order of male idealism. This is a common mindset among Blue Pill, plugged-in men, they can’t imagine an existence where their finding of an idealistically male purpose or passion in life is set in a context that doesn’t relate to how women perceive it. It’s a logical trap that most MGTOWs find themselves in – they want a world where their performance burden is removed with regard to women, but still refuse to accept that this burden exists independent from women’s perceptions.

In other words they can’t exit the Game, the fundamental rules persist; whether they choose to play or not the Game proceeds in spite of their involvement.

That being what it is, I’ve set these two concepts together here for a reason. First we have a set of Red Pill women seemingly desirous of Red Pill aware men that serve their imperatives within their acceptable frame of what “Red Pill” ought to be for them. Second we have a parallel between Gregg’s take and YaReally’s take on what women are honestly seeking in an ‘improved’ man – a more perfected slave; one who can embody the worst contradiction to positive masculinity (from Gregg’s perspective), and one who despite his performance burden is really only required to provide emotional polarity to generate tingles and genuine desire.

Toxic Masculinity

Liz’s comment from the last thread (emphasis mine):

Masculinity is not bad, it is good.

The poster responded that toxic masculinity refers to behaviors that cause distress (telling a son not to cry and so forth). I didn’t go further into the argument with her, we didn’t see eye to eye enough to really engage anyway […]

Juxtapose this with the feminine way of going things. He is told everyone has his or her own unique specialness and he just needs some encouragement.

Sometimes I think our idea of “bad” and “good” are skewed, and that’s just feminist poisoning.

Toxic masculinity is yet another narrative buzz word the Feminine Imperative has made endemic in the same way it repeats the “rape culture’ meme. By adding the term ‘culture’ to any article you find offensive you make that article an endemic phenomenon – Rape ‘culture’, Bro ‘culture’, a ‘Culture’ of Corruption, etc.

‘Toxic’ Masculinity is another such exercise. It presumes a universally agreed upon definition of what exactly is toxic – very similar again to the good and bad uses of Game in the Dark Art / Dark Triad associations I made at the beginning of this article. And in Liz’s exchange that definition is whatever male-specific behaviors women find “distressing”.

However as we see in Gregg’s example of ideal masculinity, those distressing attributes are in fact the most arousing attributes of men. I’ve used this example before, but the most pussy I’ve ever enjoyed, the most freely given and most genuinely sought after of myself by women was when I was virtually penniless. I didn’t need to signal parental investment and provisioning cues to get women’s sexual interest, I just need to fit the bill for what YaReally defines as the “fun guy” – or as Sheryl Sandberg agrees, “the bad boy, the crazy boy, the cool boy, and the commitment-phobic boy in order to prompt a woman’s genuinely inspired sexual best.

Women & Altruism:

Altruism plays a role in mate choice, particularly in women’s preferences and in long-term (LT) relationships. The current study analyzed how these preferences interacted with another important mate choice variable, physical attractiveness. Here, female participants were presented with photographs of men of varying levels of physical attractiveness, alongside descriptions of them behaving either altruistically or not in different scenarios. The results showed women preferred altruistic men, particularly in LT relationships and that this interacted with physical attractiveness such that being both attractive and altruistic made a man more desirable than just the sum of the two desirable parts. Also, being altruistic made low attractive men more desirable but only for LT relationships. Finally, men who were just altruistic were rated more desirable than men who were just attractive, especially for LT relationships. Overall, these findings are discussed in terms of the role of altruism in mate choice, particularly in LT relationships and directions of future research.

There’s subsection of Red Pill thought (Athol Kay in particular) that believes that Beta attributes align with the effects oxytocin has on men and women. I’m adding this here to provide a balance to that misguided idea:

It has been suggested that the degree of compassion—the feeling of warmth, understanding and kindness that motivates the desire to help others, is modulated by observers’ views regarding the target’s vulnerability and suffering. This study tested the hypothesis that as compassion developed to protect vulnerable kinships, hormones such as oxytocin, which have been suggested as playing a key role in ‘tend-and-befriend’ behaviors among women, will enhance compassion toward women but not toward men. Thirty subjects participated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, within-subject study. Following administration of oxytocin/placebo, participants listened to recordings of different female/male protagonists describing distressful emotional conflicts and were then asked to provide compassionate advice to the protagonist. The participants’ responses were coded according to various components of compassion by two clinical psychologists who were blind to the treatment. The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men. These findings indicate that the oxytocinergic system differentially mediates compassion toward women and toward men, emphasizing an evolutionary perspective that views compassion as a caregiving behavior designed to help vulnerable individuals.

Those example might seem a bit abstract, but I’m putting them up here to make the point that women’s sexual selection filtering is a two-fold prospect rooted in the dual nature of women’s Hypergamy. What best serves Alpha Fucks is contradicted by Beta Bucks.

Thus we have notions like the attributes that make up “Toxic Masculinity” being arbitrarily whatever aspects of the male nature women find themselves most lacking in men. And by way of that we get a definition that fluctuates according to the Feminine Imperative’s needs. Because of this women, Red Pill or otherwise will never be honest arbiter of ‘improving’ men’s states of masculinity.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

400 comments on “Women ‘Improving’ Men

  1. @YaReally
    “What’s going on here doesn’t seem to be real productive, I have a feeling Tim and the other MGTOWs here aren’t going to be leaving saying “you know they made some good points”. I mean, if the point of this is to actually reach men (and lurkers) rather than create an RVF neomasculinity club where anyone who isn’t toeing the line immediately or doesn’t necessarily know how to interact with other men and their wolf-cub playfighting shit, should just be doggy-piled and burned at the stake.”

    Amen.

  2. Although it may seem as if I was baiting Tim, my point was to ask the question as to what conditions would make otherwise MGTOW men ‘feel safe’ enough to interact with women?

    Much of what I read from hardline MGTOWs is founded in exactly the socioeconomic maladies that Roused and Glenn have had to endure in their marriages and families. ‘Never get married! The risk is too great!’

    OK, I get it, but what would need to change in a social context to make intersexual dynamics something MGTOWs would consider? Is their aversion to women even based in social origins or are these risk/reward concerns just a convenience for their unwillingness to deal with women due to past inabilities to really make a connection with women?

    Obviously men and women have had at least some kind of symbiosis working since we were in our hunter-gatherer days. Men want women, women want men. There was an interesting discussion here about capitalism being founded on gynocentrism, and while I’m not going to get back into that morass I do have to consider that intersexual dynamics was , for millennia, based on a mutually beneficial exchange of resources, protection, emotional investment and parental investment.

    So is it a social dysfunction that MGTOWs are responding to or is it something deeper? What would it take to make intimacy with a woman desirable for them?

    There’s a reason guys like Glenn and Niko left the movement. Beyond their personal differences with the members of MGTOW, what would make them see leaving the ideology on whole if it made so much sense before?

  3. @kfg
    “But not Tim, who entered by flipping his shit”

    He didn’t enter by flipping his shit. His first posts look very calm and rational. He may not have been open to having his opinion changed but there’s no reason for everyone to have escalated things to the equivalent of monkeys flinging poo at eachother, especially when everyone here is studying the red pill where controlling your emotions is like, red pill 101. And if Tim was the one who escalated shit, there’s no reason for people to engage that and goad it into a CH-style flamewar.

    @Forge The Sky
    You say:

    “It only really becomes an issue when men sell themselves short on what they can achieve.”

    then you say:

    “I agree that condemning a person for their priorities is kinda pointless.”
    “I have a job that I love that pays the bills, but I don’t make bank on it and I’m not furiously trying to make more money”
    “I live in my own small house”

    You don’t see your double-standard here? Should I be kicking your ass because you aren’t trying to be a fortune 500 CEO in a mansion? You’re selling yourself short on what I’ve decided you can and should achieve. Or do I trust that you’re intelligent enough to have decided on your priorities and know that if you want to become a fortune 500 CEO there are resources available to you to look at, but if you choose a less-achieving job that makes you happy then that’s cool. I might present some arguments in favor of the fortune 500 CEO life to try to appeal to you, but how well do you think I would do at convincing you to quit your job and chase the CEO mansion life if I just called you an underachieving loser and picked a fight?

    “At the same time, sometimes when you just kick someone’s ass in a comment it inspires them to strive for more.”

    And how does that appear to be going?

    “Sometimes I think redpill can be a bit quick to assume that’s what’s going on when someone goes MGTOW.”

    Agreed…while I’m sure there’s a large part of MGTOW that IS simply “I don’t know how to succeed so I’m going to just label it as MGTOW so I can feel like it’s my choice” (the same way guys on the TRP reddit forums go “monk mode” which is bullshit ego-protection pain-avoidance half the time). But I’d say it’s hard to really hear what the other side is saying when it’s all “MGTOW losers this MGTOW bitter failed virgins that” when they come by to try to defend themselves in an article that mentions them.

    “So it’s not gonna rack up tens of thousands of views like some dude ranting about how much women suck might, which is the only really passionate thing you get in MGTOW.”

    I don’t disagree, but we wouldn’t want to be judged by the “fuck all women, they’re stupid cunts let’s just trick them into bed and make them PAY for rejecting us!!!!” anger-stage red pill guys, we’d rather have a discussion with people viewing our community where we can present our points. But when it’s one of the other communities it’s like hey fuck them I saw some angry vids and I don’t need to hear them out or have a rational discussion that might benefit lurkers deciding what path to follow…MRAS are just bitter divorced losers who don’t do anything, MGTOWs are just pathetic virgins who don’t know what they want!

    Like I say half the time I post I know I’m not going to convince the person I’m talking to, just like on an MSM program I wouldn’t bother thinking I can convince Oprah that TRP is a good thing…the point is to reach the guys who are looking for information and set an example of what following that path can achieve. Calling Oprah a dumb cunt isn’t going to do anything useful and is kind of a waste of a platform if I actually have rational points to make…no one is coming over to my side watching that, except the guys already there and a portion of the guys who might’ve looked into my side will be going “wow this guy is flipping his shit, I don’t want to be like him” just like we look at Roosh and laugh at neomasculinity because no one wants to be like Roosh.

    I just personally expect better from a community of guys who are working on self-improvement and learning not to run around with flailing wild emotions thinking they’re in “AMOG battles” online (with men AND women (wtf?)) anymore than the kids on some World of Warcraft forum are in “AMOG battles” with eachother over the new +5 Broadsword they found.

    Ya, Emily was a troll and that Kitty chick is just doing the standard red pill woman pattern…we all know that, it’s clear as day. Do we need to engage that shit and bring this place down to CH level, or are we trying to get more men to the discussion table to help spread the word and get them off the plantation? Why am I scrolling through pages of garbage like “your husband is a beta you stupid whore” and “look at her personal blog and twitter page bla bla” every fucking comment section lately lol What even IS that shit??

    “I defer to Rollo on how hot he wants his kitchen.”

    It’s not my blog, so everyone can feel free to ignore me. But there’s a very different tone to the comment section these days than there was like 6 months ago when I started posting here as CH went to shit, and it’s been a lot less intellectual and a lot more “I’m angry and comfortable here so I’m just going to use this place to vent that anger and take it out on people I don’t agree with, and then claim I’m just AMOG’ing like men do bro!!!”

    “@Tim was not going to be convinced to change his fundamental position.”

    I’d say that’s pretty clear to everyone. So why engage him? Or rather, why engage him past the point where things start to heat up? Why not make your points for the lurkers/newbies to consider and then disengage? Or why not simply disengage instead of throwing those last personal jabs in to keep the poo flying? Not singling anyone in particular out. Same with the female commenters. We know they aren’t going to change, so why does every female comment get 10 replies trying to convince them of shit or argue with them or bitch them out?

    “From what I’ve read this site is not the place to spend time at if your mission is hating women.”

    You wouldn’t guess that from the comment section when one of these chicks speaks up. If you look through my posts here the last 6 months or so I don’t think I’ve engaged any of the women except I think that one old blogger chick from a while back but even that was just rationally discussing the content she was writing.

    Like, are we just here to build a clique or is this place still supposed to help new guys unplug?

    “Even much of what you write doesn’t appear to be for men that hate women. Does PUA work well for men that see themselves as victims?”

    We make them go out infield to sarge and collect positive reference experiences first-hand. Same way you might take someone who’s scared of or hates spiders and let a spider crawl on their hand to show them that it’s not as bad as they imagined. By getting them to leave their comfort zones and gain some control over their life they start seeing themselves less as victims and start gaining conscious competence over the world around them. There’s a tendency in the Manosphere to dwell or let other men dwell in the anger stage and make an identity out of it, that’s why the Manosphere has this shitty hostile edge to it that I don’t think it realizes it has and that edge is why the bigger PUA communities don’t even really read or talk about Rollo’s or CH’s or Roosh’s stuff…there’s too much negativity in the Manosphere for them to spend time in it.

    I’m basically one of the few PUAs that doesn’t mind sifting through the negative shit and actually hangs out in the Manosphere, and I do it primarily to clear up misconceptions about PUA…I can pretty much guarantee that if I wasn’t here constantly CTRL-F’ing “PUA” and “YaReally” to clear shit up, CH and this place would have a circle-jerk over “those stupid PUAs think this and this it’s all scams and I heard they teach this and that” just like everyone does with MGTOWs and MRAs. My first post to CH was in an article where he was making fun of a solid PUA routine lol

    The main difference between the PUA community and the MRA/Manosphere/MGTOW is that those communities spend way more time shitting on the other communities than PUA does. PUA is just doing its thing trying to unplug men and get them out there fixing their shit. I think PUAs would benefit from checking out MRA/Manosphere/MGTOW content to round out their understanding of the world, but TRM is probably the only solid resource out there that I would actually send any of them to and I’d hate to see that change.

    “even if the majority of people here are being rational and more patient like you and others are, it only takes one or two people to upset a new visitor and have them get turned off. Aren’t we all responsible for our motivation?”

    That’s why I’m not flat-out scolding anyone in particular and like I say it’s not my blog. I’m just dropping a reminder that this is one of the few places I would actually send (and have actually sent) newbies to learn about this shit…it would be nice to be able to send them here without having to say “but uhhh, skip the comment section” and hope that it doesn’t turn them off a blog that could have been literally life-saving for them if a few adult males studying self-improvement had a bit more control over their emotions.

  4. Got two posts in mod, but I saved one of them just incase lol

    @Rollo
    “Although it may seem as if I was baiting Tim, my point was to ask the question as to what conditions would make otherwise MGTOW men ‘feel safe’ enough to interact with women?”

    All good, it looked like he was open to answering questions too.

    “OK, I get it, but what would need to change in a social context to make intersexual dynamics something MGTOWs would consider?”

    I would love to hear their response to this. I’d also love to not have to sift through a bunch of bullshit 14yo flamewars to hear it and I think they’d probably be more open to answer those interesting questions when they aren’t going to get bombarded by poo-flinging for mentioning they’re MGTOW in an article that addresses MGTOW.

    “So is it a social dysfunction that MGTOWs are responding to or is it something deeper? What would it take to make intimacy with a woman desirable for them?”

    If intimacy with a woman is not currently desirable to them and they’ve created a life where they don’t involve themselves in intimacy with a woman, is that a problem? It might not be great for society in the long-run since we need babies and everything but like, I may not end up reproducing and I’m not repressing any desire to have kids…I simply don’t have an interest in it and there are way too many risks these days to make it worth having them (though I’m open to my desires/views changing as I get older).

    “There’s a reason guys like Glenn and Niko left the movement. Beyond their personal differences with the members of MGTOW, what would make them see leaving the ideology on whole if it made so much sense before?

    I can’t see that being a good argument. I mean, Roosh is denouncing pickup and everything and wants people to get married now…does that mean the red pill is flawed? People change their views and priorities with age. A 20yo might find PUA resonates with him, then as his friends settle down and he tries some LTRs his 30yo version might find Manosphere stuff resonates with him. His 40yo version as he runs into bullshit and his friends are getting burned in LTRs might find MRA stuff resonates with him…when he gets divorce-raped at 50yo he may decide MGTOW is the way for him and be like the guys in that video I linked just living a nice pleasant content life day to day that they enjoy.

    That’s why I say maybe MGTOW works for a dude now, I was pretty content as a teenage virgin in that I had accepted “I’m just not one of “those guys” who gets girls, maybe when I’m older I’ll meet some nice girl and settle down but I guess that’s not me right now” and it didn’t even really bother me day to day…but eventually, like what may happen with some younger MGTOWs, it started to bubble to the surface and DID start to be a frustration for me, and I found an extremely welcoming PUA community (admittedly it’s less welcoming these days now that it’s mainstream, but the oldschool masf forum was a fucking amazing support group) and handled it. If I had gone to the PUA community and been like “hey, I’m a MGTOW and I–” “oh god here comes a fucking MGTOW what a virgin loser pussy lolol” I probably wouldn’t have bothered looking any deeper.

    I just think it would be a lot more productive to have rational discussions that that MGTOW (or random lurker figuring his shit out, your blog gets enough hits that we know they aren’t all posting in this comment section but most of them are probably reading it) is going to remember if he does decide one day he wants women in his life even if it’s just in some specific controlled fashion (like a “my way or the highway” FB/harem arrangement). And maybe that’s not the MGTOW that’s directly engaging us, but the lurkers etc who are taking this all in.

  5. @goosfraba

    so you’re telling me you’re a slave to your biology?

    I’m telling you that everybody is. You and I are both included in everybody. I also happen to find no strong argument against Sam Harris on the idea of Free Will, so you can consider that part of it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

    So, uh, yeah. That’s exactly what I’m telling you. Everybody is, and that includes me. Being aware of it allows you to bend a few rules here and there, but in the end you’ll dance to that master’s tune or pay the price for not doing so.

    @YaReally

    In general I agree with you that the sniping and infighting is dumb. However, when I see other groups taking up views I regard as self-defeating or wrong at a fundamental level (as I just responded to above in this comment) I have to call them out for that.

    As much as I love women, I don’t even really see a big benefit to female friendship like having women in your life 24/7. To me women are mainly for sex. There’s no brilliant advice or insights on life a solipsistic chick who lives in a COMPLETELY different reality from men, is going to give me lol I like their feminine energy (as long as they’re the bubbly positive type, which I screen for, which is why I stick to the <25yo crowd)

    Couldn’t agree more, which is why I’ve not gotten laid in a while now while I work on game. I can’t fuck typical chicks anymore as I’ve found most women make a concerted effort to act like dudes. To be fair, the same set of lies Blue Pill dudes are fed about being “more in touch with their feminine side” to attract women also turn around and claim women need to be “one of the guys” to attract men.

    I remember my first date with my ex, the moment she was about to leave she turned around, bounded up to me with a huge grin, jumped up, swung around my neck and kissed me. It was so girly, bubbly, and excited. It’s also damn near impossible to find in any age range, never mind the jaded chicks in our age range and up.

    Still searching for a good place to consistently run in to that kind of energy and the flow I can feel happy in. Last night was a complete bust though, unfortunately. Place I tried was nothing but wall to wall middle agers, fatties, and heavily tattooed skanks. Gamed a little on a couple of the women out of sheer boredom, but tossed them back after a few seconds as I had zero interest. Marking that one off the list.

  6. ” Now that’s the question, Rollo. Good one. My mother was a whore. She dumped my father to screw my step father because he had a larger dick and a much larger wallet than my real father. They ended up destroying one another – which in my mind is poetic justice. I did nothing to ease the pain of their last days. I’m glad they’re both dead and both died impoverished, painful lives. My real father was an honorable man. He died clean.”

    …Woah.

    I’m still playing catchup. Lottsa comments.

  7. Some guys have an abrasive temperament, then others are too sensitiven I guess. To grow a thick skin is all I can say to them. MGTOW is a spectrum. Those who cannot deal with women any more because once bitten twice shy are entittled to that. If one adapts the life style as a statement or rally effort against legislation and social environment hostile to men; they are entitled to that too. To each his own. Some of us will continue getting offers and continue to plough pussy right left center no matter how loud the MGTOW howl to stop. But there is no need to insult them.

  8. @Sun Wukong
    “So, uh, yeah. That’s exactly what I’m telling you. Everybody is, and that includes me. Being aware of it allows you to bend a few rules here and there, but in the end you’ll dance to that master’s tune or pay the price for not doing so.”

    If porn, VR-sex, prostitution, webcam chicks (esp once webcams and VR combine and you have girls giving you virtual handjobs with your synchronized fleshlight or whatever it all turns into in the next few years), etc take care of a guy’s biological urges enough that he’s not on the verge of a killing rampage, is he really going to pay a price? Sure he won’t reproduce, but otherwise if he’s decided real live chicks are too much hassle and all these other options feel close enough to the real thing? I think a lot of guys would be pretty satisfied with that life and it would be reasonably safe for them to engage in and having all those other options would make it pretty easy to not bother going to the bar to approach girls and compete with other men for them.

    Like you’re content with your solo place and your job. Maybe I want to be a CEO in a mansion and I’m convinced that you’d enjoy it way more because men want to reach their potential and be the top dog etc etc. But like, if you’re happy doing your thing, why am I gonna get on your case about how you should want more? And are you going to listen to me if I approach you from a shaming angle about it? Why not just provide the arguments and resources for it and, when/if you decide it’s something you want down the road, you know where to turn to.

    “Still searching for a good place to consistently run in to that kind of energy and the flow I can feel happy in. Last night was a complete bust though, unfortunately. Place I tried was nothing but wall to wall middle agers, fatties, and heavily tattooed skanks. Gamed a little on a couple of the women out of sheer boredom, but tossed them back after a few seconds as I had zero interest. Marking that one off the list.”

    Do everything you can, sacrifice some shit if you have to, to move near a college/university bar district. Life is short and you’re just going to get older and more frustrated with the options around you if you aren’t in that kind of area. If you were a young dude then whatever, live anywhere you’ll have enough adventures to have a good time regardless. But as an older guy, do anything you can to get your ass into a prime location, it makes a world of difference. Other people will think you’re crazy, but if your financial situation is decent and your work location is flexible and one of your major priorities is having young bubbly chicks in your life, sacrifice whatever you have to to relocate to an area with better options. It’s worth it, you have the rest of your life to recover whatever you had to sacrifice for it lol

  9. A lot of you guys shitting on these men that identify as mgtow have no frame of reference to relate to these men’s LIVED experience. Some of you may have had bad divorces, or bad relationships or acted like simps and fucked everything up; and now with your new redpill outlook you look that these angry MGTOW guys as say to yourselves “I got over it, whats this pussies problem.” But does your particular experience really align with theirs?

    In my experience, there are 2 different guys that identify as mgtow. The Omega guy who’s natural SMV is so low, that he would rather spend the limited time he has left pursuing his own hobbies and pursuits instead of fighting an uphill battle he has no real chance of making any progress on. This type of man just shit’s on women to soothe his own ego as an emotional defense reflex. This is the type of man so many of you lump everyone into.

    The problem with this mind set is that so many mgtows are actually men who were regular guys. Guys like your dads, brothers, grandfathers, uncles and sons who got so fucked over by playing by the old set of books that they are scarred. Scarred for fucking life. How many of you that have had bad relationships have actually had EVERYTHING taken from you by a woman with the help of the government, and sometimes with the help of your own fucking friends, family and pastors/priests? Your wealth, home, children, reputation, livelihood, peace of mind, GONE. These men you are shitting on have sat in jails with the lowest of criminals because their wives made false allegations against them to gain leverage during divorces. They have seen their wives tell their children that the reason the family is disintegrating is because “daddy is bad” or “daddy doesn’t love us any more”, all the while with her finger on the nuke button and another mans hands down her panties. They have had to give alimony and child support for decades to their cunt ex-wives who haven’t let them see their children for years. These men have had their own fathers and mothers question their manhood, and have been socially ostracized by their friends, because they weren’t “man enough” to take care of business. These men have had their pastors and priests justify their wives infidelity and atrocious behavior to them, telling them that had they been more of a Christian man, their wives wouldn’t have sinned. I’d have to write a book to list all the horrors I have seen first hand some of these men go through. I personally seen it with so many friends and family members. Right now I am watching my own brother go through many of these things. It’s nearly breaking him, and he is one of the most alpha guys I ever knew. Even he is getting to the point where he never wants to see another woman till he dies.

    A lot of mgtows were trapped by society, government, and love for their own offspring by the time they realized the noose was tight around their necks. They couldn’t get out before the free-fall started. Give them a break and quit being such fucking dickheads to them. Try for a moment and put yourselves in their shoes, and imagine how you would react if you had experienced the ultimate loss. I don’t agree with all of their solutions, but for fucks sake I understand how they feel. If we are here to help men, then we need to take the higher road when they get a little out of hand or spout off at the mouth. These are damaged men who need a little bit of understanding and patience. Before you start shitting on them and judging them, imagine if anyone of them was your own father, brother or son before you do. Like Rollo said, HELP the ones you can, and give triage to the ones you can’t. But for fucks sake, stop pouring salt in their wounds.

  10. @YaReally

    Preach it brother. The infighting is dumb.

    If nothing else, MGTOW is a virtual safe space for the newly unplugged to land. A man can stay there as long as he wants while he figures shit out and gets his legs back under him. The entire definition of MGTOW means there are as many kinds of MGTOW as there are men in the movement. They are all going their own way after all. Some value game, some don’t.

    I would think the PUA and game communities would love MGTOW. Every man that willingly takes himself out of the market increases the value of the men left in it.

    The PUA and game community help men understand female psychology. How can that be bad for anyone? AVFM and ROK still have value even if I have to frequently ignore the founders ego driven rants.

    The manosphere is simply to small for everyone to waste time tearing each others assholes open.

  11. @nastynate
    Excellent comment. I check out a lot of MGTOW/MRA stuff so I’ve seen a lot of those horror stories. It’s great that some guys run into trauma like that and still come out of it wanting to take on the challenge of learning pickup and the red pill and chasing poon after going through hell, but for the guys who don’t it’s like man, a lot of their stories I hear and am like “I can’t even blame you for viewing the situation this way after what you went through”. I think a lot of the hate comes from guys who’ve either not been through hell or have been through it and overcome it and look down on those guys for not manning up like they did.

    Dogs are cute and it would be cool if everyone was able to own and train a dog that gives them wonderful companionship and everything…but some guy who had his face mauled off by a pack of dobermans, I mean, I’m cool with that guy not wanting to own a dog lol

    The jist I get from checking out MGTOW is that a lot of the older guys are the ones who’ve gone through hell and are perfectly content not having much to do with women. And the younger ones seem to either be the low SMV incel type who just couldn’t figure it out or have decided it’s not worth the hassle (and will probably change their minds down the road, just like I may decide I want kids one day), or have seen friends/family go through the nightmare shit and have decided “nope, not chancing it!”

    Lumping them all in as lazy low SMV incels is kind of silly, it’s what the MSM does when they lump us all in with Roosh.

  12. Personally, I have no issue with MGTOW mindsets in total. Folks can do whatever they like. It’s the reasoning ( sometimes ) that show that there may be deeper issues working beneath the surface. Those issues I may, or may not, attempt to address. But do I think I’d ever convince a MGTOW to reverse course? Hell to the No.

    Tim is an extreme example imo. I doubt most guys foregoing ” women ” have the same experiences or reactions to their life experiences that Tim has.

    I’m actually exhausted from reading Tim’s tirade/commentary.

    Rollo, patron saint of patience, asked –

    ” Although it may seem as if I was baiting Tim, my point was to ask the question as to what conditions would make otherwise MGTOW men ‘feel safe’ enough to interact with women?

    Much of what I read from hardline MGTOWs is founded in exactly the socioeconomic maladies that Roused and Glenn have had to endure in their marriages and families. ‘Never get married! The risk is too great!’

    OK, I get it, but what would need to change in a social context to make intersexual dynamics something MGTOWs would consider? Is their aversion to women even based in social origins or are these risk/reward concerns just a convenience for their unwillingness to deal with women due to past inabilities to really make a connection with women?

    Obviously men and women have had at least some kind of symbiosis working since we were in our hunter-gatherer days. Men want women, women want men. There was an interesting discussion here about capitalism being founded on gynocentrism, and while I’m not going to get back into that morass I do have to consider that intersexual dynamics was , for millennia, based on a mutually beneficial exchange of resources, protection, emotional investment and parental investment.

    So is it a social dysfunction that MGTOWs are responding to or is it something deeper? What would it take to make intimacy with a woman desirable for them?”

    How to make MGTOW’s feel safe? Dependent on the reasons that such drastic measures ( imo ) were taken up in the first place. I don’t agree that men necessarily should feel safe to a greater extent. We provide safety. The notion that interacting with women will lead to a man’s demise is ludicrous on it’s face, so the answer to making MGTOW’s feel safer in interacting with women lies in increasing their understanding of women. All women. That appears to be a skipped step in the decision to become MGTOW in the first place.

    “…Is their aversion to women even based in social origins or are these risk/reward concerns just a convenience for their unwillingness to deal with women due to past inabilities to really make a connection with women?”

    Um, fucking Bingo.

    But again, men’s reaction to risk/reward is individualistic. The social aspect or dealing with women does not have a large enough sample size for the average Joe to come to a rash conclusion that he should just cash in his chips and go play Halo online. Seems like discouragement bred by lack of understanding is a major driving force.

    Like I said, folks can do whatever, but it is hard(er) for one that cares about men, their fellow man, to sit by and watch guys just check out and give up. there’s hardly anything that one man can do that another cannot, discounting physical limitations. The MGTOW ” club ” may be exacerbating an existing problem that has an alternative solution available, one that may just be more conducive to ” Happiness ” overall by not placing limitations and restrictions on a man’s desires and aspirations. We have enough of that forced down our throats daily already.

    Risk/Reward. Hard to get anywhere worthwhile in life without running into this unavoidable calculation scenario.

    I actively encourage men to attain Mastery in life, and one of the first things I like to see men master is Fear, in all of it’s nasty incarnations. ” Inability ” is just another thing that can be conquered. A handle must be placed on Inability causing Fear. You can’t fight Fear by retreating. I’m still scared of shit ( ** I will deny this fact in court though ** ), but I always strive to quell that emotion.

    There are concerns when trying to forge a partnership of any kind with women. That is a given under the social structure we all find ourselves in. Children with dynamite…. but the only way to battle against feminism is with masculinity. Yin and Yang. Masculinity has never included running from a problem. That’s why I didn’t ride a fucking horse to work today.

    There aren’t 7 billion motherfuckers on this planet because men and women are adversaries. Think on that for a minute. Think about how fast those 7 billion would vanish if men stopped doing the manly, burdensome work of building, feeding, protecting and problem solving.

    And that includes you if your willing to come to the party.

    We, Gentlemen, are the SHIT. Resist the mindfuck that would ever tell you otherwise.

  13. If intimacy with a woman is not currently desirable to them and they’ve created a life where they don’t involve themselves in intimacy with a woman, is that a problem?

    Not at all. In fact this is generally the part of MGTOW I have the most agreement with. What I do have a problem with is hardline MGTOWs discounting anything less that completely renouncing women on whole as “pussy begging”. That’s how they dismiss you being a PUA and myself for being a 20 years married Red Pill writer.

    So I ask again, is it a case of the social and legal norms of this age being what they are the reason for ‘going your own way’ or if those liabilities were removed or mitigated would MGTOW be less appealing?

    If you answer yes, then how does that not make you a ‘pussy beggar’? What I’m saying is that all this fear-based reasoning for not engaging with women is a convenient cover for men who simply can’t and wont make connections with women because the very concept of making that connection will ALWAYS be ‘pussy begging’. The idea of connecting with a woman even on the most base level of sex will be a MGTOWs abdication to the power women have over him.

    This is why the hardliners want to remove their libidos as a means to freedom. That’s just the logical binary extreme, and anything less makes you a beggar who is ultimately powerless with women.

    So it follows that even making attempts to understand the nature of women is itself a form of begging. Thus this blog, your comments, really any discussion about women beyond removing yourself from women’s influence is again begging because you’re only trying to untangle better means to submit to women’s sexual power over you.

    As I stated in my MiD talk, if you’re Red Pill aware you’re already MGTOW to some degree because you can make a better informed choice on how you will deal with women, but to the hardliners this extreme is the logical end. You may choose to enjoy many women via Game and never have kids, but to the hardline mindset you’re just a slave to your dick.

  14. @YaReally

    “The price” won’t always look the way people think it will. Say you spend your younger years absorbed in video games, porn, and booze because it was “good enough” then, but down the road you realize it ain’t enough. Now you’re playing catch up trying to learn shit you should have been learning all along. That’s the situation I’m in. Even if VR porn is “good enough” for a long time, I think there will come a point when it isn’t, particularly with what the current generation is going to be like.

    And the simple fact is the reason guys even engage in activities like that to begin with is because the biological overlord demands some sort of capitulation. The reason you work and do things even if you don’t necessarily enjoy work is because your body demands food and shelter. We all dance to a biological overlord at some level, whether we want to or not.

    The MGTOW claim that they’re “free” from it just rings hollow to me. You can be aware of it, curb it here and there, delay it, but ultimately in some way even avoiding it is acknowledging it and doing SOMETHING about it. That biology is driving your actions. It’s an inescapable fact.

  15. @Rollo and about being a slave to our dicks:

    I stated (and maintain) that if I could get rid of my sexual desire and keep everything else the same I would sign up for it, but I know that it can’t work like that as it is such a fundamental part of our (male) bodies.

    But even then, even if I wouldn’t be a slave to my dick, I’d still be a slave to my stomach or lungs or whatever. Maybe these guys just want their brains uploaded to some computer mainframe like in some sci-fi works.

  16. “You can be aware of it, curb it here and there, delay it, but ultimately in some way even avoiding it is acknowledging it and doing SOMETHING about it. That biology is driving your actions. It’s an inescapable fact.”

    As I heard someone else say: “Just remember that self-discipline is not self-suppression. Suppression is when you resist and fight against your desires, keeping them as buried and unexpressed as possible. Self-discipline is when your highest desires rule your lesser desires.”

    So maybe MGTOW can be self-discipline. Or maybe it is self suppression with the release-from-constraint coming from giving up. I see no reason not to denigrate the latter and I am fine with the former.

  17. I don’t know why you guys are trying to get men to abandon MGTOW! , hell, I hope 90% of men go their own way, just think how much women we will all have.
    Less compensation.
    Go MGTOW, Go and don’t come back.

  18. @Rollo
    “if those liabilities were removed or mitigated would MGTOW be less appealing? Absolutely. In fact, even YouTube’s ‘Messenger Rising’, one of the most hardcore MGTOW monks around, admitted that most mgtow’s didn’t want to be so if the liabilities weren’t there. Go to minute 8:30 on the video below, and he says it outright.

  19. Men’s sexuality is a feature, not a bug, of our human experience.

    As I’ve always said, women should only ever a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, the hardline MGTOW ideology maintains that women cannot ever be a complement to a man’s life and are rather a liability to it, and always a dangerous one.

    To the hardliner, men’s sexual imperative is a liability, a bug, a problem to be removed (rather than solved). And any man who attempts to solve that problem, rather than eliminate it, is simply a slave on a plantation with a better or worse status on it. Anyone attempting to teach men how to solve the problem of their sexual imperative is only educating and advocating for better slaves.

    But if men’s sexuality is a bug (albeit one that’s contributed to the proliferation of the species) then it follows that men can rise above that through some higher-order separation of mind and biological influence. I don’t agree with this, but this what hardliners accept. This is one reason I think most MGTOWs lack conviction in their behaviors. Because if the problem of men’s sexuality is one of relinquishing power to women (his drug dealer) then even jerking off to porn is an abdication of power and an acceptance that there is no higher-order mind-body separation.

    Guys like YaReally are only wasting their time. Guys like myself are just beholden to the bad choices we’ve made with women. Why learn Game at all when you can have infinite sexual variety via prostitutes and porn? Why go through all the BS Tyler teaches when top shelf pussy is only as difficult to attain as you have the capacity to pay for it or keep your ISP bill paid?

    The only Red Pill awareness a man needs is to know that women have power over him only insofar as he’s willing to satisfy his libido. Anything else is just wasting time. Right?

  20. I just don’t think MGTOW is realistic. Maybe some the older guys who have been through hell and back really are done with women, but I suspect most of the younger guys are conning themselves.

    I really hope I’m wrong. Nobody wants to believe MGTOW is possible more than me. I’d love to see men exit the rat race in droves and watch the whole thing burn. But even if something like that did happen, I wouldn’t be joining them.

    Going MGTOW is awful, in my opinion. It’s just lonely. It’s not even about sex, but basic emotional and psychological needs that intimacy meets. It’s about living a life that doesn’t just disappear in a blur because nothing of noteworthy happens in it. Ok, so you have hobbies, so fucking what? I have hobbies too and I devote most of my free time to them, it still doesn’t change the fact that your life becomes pretty flavorless and forgettable. This certainly doesn’t feel like “freedom.” You know, you could argue that homeless people are “free” because they don’t have to work.

    I’ve done this for a few years now with only a handful of regrettable and brief sexual encounters with below average women here and there. At this point, I think even a bad relationship would be better than this shit. Surely if there was some corner you’re supposed to turn where you discover the MGTOW zen, I would have turned it already. It doesn’t get easier as time goes on. It just gets worse.

    This is going to sound corny – it is corny – but I was watching that movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and there is that scene at the end of it where Kate Winslet tells Jim Carrey that there’s no point in having a relationship since they already know how it’s going to end. They’re terrible for each other and will eventually hurt one another. Carrey’s response is to smile and say “ok.” In other words, yeah, the relationship will end badly, but so what? It’s still worth it.

    That’s basically how I look at it. Women are awful, but MGTOW is worse. Maybe it’s just me.

  21. Re: the OP
    Women cannot improve men. Feminists have weakened the host; parasitic overreach.

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/329241-europes-tragedy-merkel-immigration/

    Will they realize their errors, do an about face and repair the damage? In the long run it is possible, in the short run I rather doubt it. Given we are all dead in the long run….

    On the upside, my wing made some progress last night. As we have no sophisticated plan, I removed myself and waited for him to finish up. A cooperative equilibrium.
    I still can’t shake the lack of meaning in western societies; elite corruption and their betrayal of the masses in our ‘democracies’ combined with high unemployment and a hostile ecosystem for men. It’s not that I despair. I just don’t see how our western societies will last having abandoned our values and our men. Sad, stupid and pointless. Go gyrlllz.

  22. @Divided Line
    “Women are awful, but MGTOW is worse. Maybe it’s just me.”

    Dude, you’re just holding on to your old blue-pill idealization of women. You are yerning for the matrix, performance independant, version of a relationship that was never possible anyway. Women aren’t horrible. They’re just women. The government and society at large is enabling them to do some horrible shit right now. But it is possible to have a decent relationship with a chick, even now in this cluster fuck we call society. If you genuinely feel happier being with women, follow through and go all the way with this TRM redpill shit. It took me years before I even considered talking to another woman after my ordeal. I experienced a lot of the feelings you are going though now. Stick with it, and apply yourself. You do start seeing the light at the end of the tunnel is you start walking towards it. Rollo has pointed you to the way out. Start seeing your happiness as paramount, and start making yourself as your mental point of origin.

  23. Women are not awful. That’s an exaggeration. Try not to overreact.

    I see women like I see Pitbulls in a way. Pitbulls have a genetic capability to be deadly. I’ve lived around a culture that adores raising them to be violent and murderous. Routinely, many adults and children have been maimed or killed by the dogs.

    So, realistically ( as much as I dislike the notion of pitbulls in my area ), are Pitbulls awful, or is the twisted, sick aspect of a certain culture that promotes the bad behavior, that they are physically and mentally more suited for, the problem?

    Are pitbulls raised under a more reasonable atmosphere just naturally a ” problem “?

    Nah.

  24. Hey YaReally,

    Thanks for commenting, as usual. Helping me to iron out my own thoughts.

    I don’t think I’m really one of the guys who goes after MGTOW’s and female commenters, so a lot of this doesn’t have to do with me. But this all does make me think about the best ways to help other guys and give advice.

    It’s tricky to know when to just let a guy be because he’s happy, and when to try to inspire him to want more. Basically I just try to feel out if the guy is actually happy with where he’s at, and if I get the sense that he’s not I give him a push. Like, earlier this thread I tried to put a fire behind Divided Line’s ass because I just get the sense that, though he’s not miserable, he’s also not incredibly pleased with how things are for him right now. Compare that to the MGTOW vids you posted where that one guy is just pleased as punch with his little house and raspberries and stuff; him I’d just leave alone. And thing is I might be wrong about Divided Line, which is why I addressed it to the lurkers too, and even if I’m right he can just decide it’s not worth it if he wants. And that’s fine, I just love seeing a guy who’s passionate about something he loves and happy with his life, so I try to create that.

    I think you tend to take one more step back and only try to help a guy that’s directly asking for help or seems miserable in a way that he could fix with specific information. You step on less toes that way because you aren’t dragging anyone out onto the field who doesn’t want to be there with promises of ‘Try it, once you get going it’s fun, I promise!’ like I tend to.

    I’ve benefitted from guys encouraging me – even above my protests – to bustamove before when I’m down in the dumps. I suppose that’s why I tend to do the same thing here, even if it rubs some people the wrong way cause they don’t WANT to get off the couch and exercise or open sets or whatever.

    Also, I’ve dealt with mild depression before and so I know how you can actually believe that life and socializing and so on are shit and not worth the effort when, once you get out of that pattern, you realize how awesome everything can be again. It’s not the person choosing inertia sometimes, it’s the pathology. Of course you can’t cure clinical depression with an online pep talk, but if it’s just a mood pattern there’s a chance it can make a difference. Or at least so I tell myself 😉

    Anyways now I’m just being introspective lol y’all don’t need my navel-gazing. I agree with you about the reactions to female commenters though, Christ. I don’t get that at all.

    Like that girl that just got banned whose name you can’t type or your comment goes to spam (what is she, Voldemort? lol) – she’s just being a girl. How did people not expect her to keep flailing around for attention after she was outed and promised to leave? That’s what girls DO, they bug you till you yell at them to stop, meekly promise to obey, then as soon as you start ignoring them they start bothering you again to get your attention back. And the way they bother you is generally very cannily calibrated to get a reaction from you, which is why we called her a ‘troll.’ Girls know how to get attention from guys. She got it here. Not complicated.

    Having an old oneitis in the workplace allowed me to observe that dynamic well. She kept me in orbit for a long time with just basic cat-string theory – lure with just enough openness/attention, then pull away. Often literally – like she’d be friendly to me ‘like she used to be,’ say or do something to get me talking and then quickly jump in with some comment or approval to get me hooked/keeping on talking to her – and then literally turn around and walk away as soon as I started going into it. Or turn around and start working intently at a computer or something and just give distracted monosyllable responses. If I berated her she’d just act super annoyed and tell me that she was busy and I was interrupting her work. Lol, it was just classic Mystery Method really.

    Meanwhile another girl at work pissed me off and so I ignored her for three months, then slowly started giving her attention back cause I wasn’t angry anymore and she was all over me. Not shitting where I eat lol but I experimented a bit and she was down with heavy dominant kino pretty much right off the bat, and keeps disguising little moans as clearing her throat or laughing and so on when I walk by her. Heh.

    Game works.

  25. @nate Nah, I think I’m pretty realistic about it these days. I expect very little from women now. I recognize they aren’t capable of much.

    @blaximus

    I just see them as perpetually disappointing children.

  26. Hello. My name is Blaximus, and I like pussy/women… ** Hi Blaximus **

    I really started liking pussy at age 13 and it got progressively worse from there.

    ** We hear you Blaximus **

    I need help…

    ** We’re here to help you Blaximus **

    No, really, my zipper’s stuck and I gotta go bone the wife… I need help with it.

  27. @Divided

    I’m not even disappointed in them anymore. No more so than hurricanes or giant snow storms. Just shit that happens sometimes.

  28. “Women are not awful. That’s an exaggeration.”

    agree. and while the best thing they do is sex, I think they bring great balance to my life and off the top of my head here are some things that I learned about and or got interested in because of women

    musical theater (not a fan but it is part of the human experience going way back and I can appreciate the talent that some performers have)

    coffee (now is the best time in history to grind and brew it yourself if you don’t live in ethiopia or colombia)

    mdma (really great, lots of fun)

    scrabble (never played with my friends but it’s pretty fun and makes me think)

    i’m sure they are other things too.

    food and wine taste better with girls and they have great palates.

    I like playing darts with girls. I like when they make clothes or blankets for me.

    I think this society is awesome. you can take or leave any part of it you like. being white in america is paradise. literally.

    paradise was a walled fruit garden. I got the best fucking tangellos last week. it was ten degrees outside and I’m eating citrus. love it.

  29. “Why learn Game at all when you can have infinite sexual variety via prostitutes and porn?”

    women are all the same. the variety comes from within me. I’m different every time.

    learn game and you’ll always be growing

  30. @Realy Yahrealy
    Spent 20yrs at AA meetings,all meetings have a chair person.Some chairs allow cross talk some don’t. Cross talk being comments on comments,as you say this can be abraisive to new people.Some chairs hold everyone strictly on topic of the chairs choosing some let it wander randomly.People come and go between meetings some just say these guys are assholes and go for some more mind eraser.

    It would appear that there is no way to chair a 24/7 meet like this and even if it could be done there is no way to avoid pissing someone off.
    They get mad if you don’t let them ramble they get mad if you do.They fight over chairs over girls over politics over being told to shut up and on and on.You can’t set up a psyc. site with a comment section without it becoming an open group session.And this means cross talk.The major difference is the spoken word witch is soon forgotten and the written word that can be referenced at any later date witch ussualy carries more weight.Although if someone starts a verbal assault in person they risk a bloody nose or worse.So yah maybe it would be a good idea to limit my comments to something that wouldn’t get me a bloody nose in person.
    Maybe it we shouldn’t comment on the new guys comments but then how would they know if this thing is on.

    Jeesus how the fuck can you guys type so fast.

  31. Fleezer…

    Someone waaaayyyy up in the comment stream commented that women are only good for sex. I don’t recall who it was, and I’m too busy ( read: Lazy ) at this moment to go back and look. It was also said that women have shitty insights and conversations and etc. etc. etc. ( paraphrasing ).

    http://img.pandawhale.com/84962-Joker-gif-very-poor-choice-of-sMrv.gif

    Granted, I’ve had some dim witted chicks in my life, but I’ve had a lot of dim witted dudes also.

    When guys have an attitude like that, I attribute it to not getting out and spending enough time with a wide variety of women. Hell, you gotta get out and spend time with a wide variety of People, imo.

    The ratio of airhead/just for sex women to awesome, well rounded and fun chicks I’ve known runs about 10:1 in favor of the cool chicks. I sense a measure of butthurtedness coloring the perception. Women are good for stuff other than sex. It’s true.

    Differing insights doesn’t have to be a negative. Chicks are supposed to be different. It’s not a bad thing to meet and talk to chicks without any agenda other than conversation. You can’t fuck everybody….trust me, I tried for a long while. Lol.

  32. @Blax

    I can cosign, but would add that how girls treat you is highly dependent on your mindset. If you are suspicious or resentful of them, or otherwise don’t like them, they’ll pick up on it and be a bitch to you out of self-defense. If you act like a nice beta to them they’ll be nice and fun and platonic with you, but shame you hardcore if you try to sexualize things. If you act alpha they’ll get all sweet and silly and girly and try to entice you to sexualize things with them.

    It’s been said before but I’ll say it again. If you walk out your door and someone is an asshole to you, you just met an asshole. If everyone you meet that day is an asshole, you’re the asshole.

  33. @Forge

    ” It’s been said before but I’ll say it again. If you walk out your door and someone is an asshole to you, you just met an asshole. If everyone you meet that day is an asshole, you’re the asshole.”

    I am stealing this right now.

    Mindset is practically everything. I was raised with 3 sisters and in a neighborhood where chicks outnumbered us guys 10:1. Quite a few girls were as close to me as my guy friends. I have a different take on male/female dynamic because of that I guess.

    The only thing I held against my girl friends growing up, is that they couldn’t see the humor in Monty Python. I held that against them mildly.

  34. Some of my comments that could have been taken as offensive were from a part of my thinking that if I can do it then anybody can. Over the past five years I’ve gone through some shitty depression from the outcome of my choice for divorce and the shocking consequences. I use the word shocking because who woulda thunk my ex would do the things she and her family did? At times I think I’m an idiot for choices I’ve made without fully understanding and being able to project future outcomes. I truly have felt the pain of what my children have experienced and for that I looked at myself being a loser.

    When my son parroted his mother calling me a deadbeat dad because I refused to sign off on whatever whimsy shit she wanted (and took me to the brink of bankruptcy) it dug a dagger into me. I was at a low point in my life. Later I started seeing this chick who is now what I refer to as my girlfriend. I made similar mistakes because I was clueless about the FI and all the complexities it entails. Rinse and repeat. I felt stupid again. My best friend who waffles off and on with MGTOW (he is not aware of the what the acronym means) was supportive at all times but I felt like I failed him because I keep rinsing and repeating.

    I tried all sorts of things with my kids, sometimes with success, most times not. My beloved older sister counseled me one evening as I poured my heart out to her and told me in no uncertain terms many women work hard at emasculating their male partners. I was like….what the fuck is she really talking about? She ended the call by telling me to just love my kids as best I could as that was the only prescription I could handle at that time.

    I felt like an idiot. It’s really that simple.

    So here I come to Rollo’s site as well as yourbrainonporn and I became a sponge. I literally started feeling like a man, something I don’t think I’ve ever felt before. When Rugby and a few other new guys posted I felt encouraged that others like me could figure this shit out. While I do write a lot in personal journals and for work, I’ve never felt like I was ready to articulate these new experiences in a way that some of you brilliant wordsmiths do.

    I got kinda uppity and full of myself this weekend about MGTOW because I kept thinking: Fuck, if someone like me who is such a slow learner can figure it out then they can too! Felt like I was in 8th grade and finally realized what algebra was all about. Like, come on fellas, dim witted Roused got it working so can you! There is so much chest bumping and peacocking here I figured what the fuck, might as well write how I feel. Telling Tim to grow a pair was me being an asshole. Yareally was right about most of what he shared. Tim was not innocent in some of his replies either.

    I have read enough about game to see the word chode used very derogatorily at guys that are idiots about game. Of course it doesn’t translate into nearly the same sarcasm dealing with a man who has lost everything and is considering suicide. I hope those men truly can find good help. Most of them probably don’t come here because they are too far down a dark path. It’s embarrassing to admit, but at one point I was so depressed I actually let my mind toy with the idea of it. I could t stand the thought of deserting my kids and pulled my head out of my ass when I realized how fucked up I was and found some professional help. I haven’t let my chode like attempts at game stop me from trying. I’ve also been a bit surprised at the incredibly bitter comments to women who post here. In my own beta thinking I thought maybe they should have been treated better. Whatevs, to each their own.

    In the end this weekend was a good lesson in the comments. The tribe self-corrected but not without some anger and enormous frustration. It’s even possible that all this reference to myself is my own solipsism. Is that possible for men?

    This old post from Year Three and the comments made for excellent reading with coffee this morning. Learned a few more things with the dots in the matrix connecting. It takes a lot of patience for the host of this site to have to repeat himself over and over.

    http://therationalmale.com/2014/03/03/women-talk-men-do/comment-page-2/#comments

    “Sao Feng

    March 14th, 2014 at 12:43 pm
    pure gold:
    “I’ve realized the problem is not just females commenting here, but the men who reply to their stupid comments”
    http://www.returnofkings.com/30942/you-will-be-banned-if-you-reply-to-a-female-commenter

    Rollo Tomassi

    March 14th, 2014 at 12:58 pm
    I still believe in an open discourse, but I understand Roosh’s reasoning. Sometimes the only way for men to learn from women IS to reply to stupid comments.
    Women’s outrage and rationalizations often prove my points better than I can illustrate them.”

    So I suppose that the discourse about MGTOW has benefitted some of us. Apologies to any man out there that is getting fucked over by the system or his ex. Hang in there gentlemen.

  35. @Blax

    One of the first dates my parents had, he took her to the theater to see the latest Monte Python flick. He says he was rolling in the aisles, and she just thought it was ‘kinda gross.’

    This still happens when they watch something with crude humor in it lol. The more things change….

  36. Perhaps I haven’t been clear. MGTOWs have many other places where they can go do their thing – my objection is their endless prattle here. I come here because it’s not about MGTOW. I’m not interested in hearing the latest emotional retard come in here and tell Rollo how he’s full of shit and how we are all pussy beggars and slaves to women. I won’t be polite about it and have no obligation to.

    Unlike YaReally, I don’t see myself on some mission of unplugging or as some authority in the Red Pill world. And oh yeah, while we’re at it, Ya, I didn’t “play the victim”, I merely said I was tired of being lectured to about shit I already understand and being painted with motivations and issues that aren’t true for me. You presume a lot about your authority in things beyond pickup, fyi, and when you go beyond that your commentary becomes merely average. Fair enough, but don’t stand here like you are sorting me out because of your higher purpose. The poor deluded fuckers out there need no rescuing from me. Also, to be clear, I only regretted posting that pic and my comment because of how you went off – I don’t think there was a thing wrong with it. I was just having a bit of fun, you are the one who went full retard. I respect you on pickup massively, but that’s about it, bunky. Also, stop trying to be the thought and comment police here – you may want “peace”, but what makes what you want any more important than what I want? Answer: Nothing. You be peaceful, me I’m going to fight these fuckers until they shut up and go away.

    Back to you MGTOW humps. I have one question. Can you leave one space in the manosphere in peace? Can you just shut the fuck up and go to the hundreds of other sites and channels where your views haven’t been rejected? I won’t come bother you any place else – this is the only place I comment and get support for my Red Pill journey. I left all the others because of hopeless MRAs and MGTOWs who were stuck in an unproductive loop of ego gratifying nonsense. I wanted more out of life than that, and I’m dead serious about it. I’m not LARPing here – I’m out to save my fucking life. What the fuck are you guys up to, besides making a virtue of resignation, cynicism and passivity? I’m under no obligation to respect any of it and this isn’t a MGTOW community. It might also help if you do want to comment here to actually read what Rollo has written before running your goddamn mouths spouting idiotic shit over and over and over again.

    People here should remember that I was very active in MGTOW for a while when I first hit the Red Pill. I had 2 YouTube channels, one with over 22,000 views and had many followers (pretty easy to get MGTOW followers, lol, just call women cunts and boom – 1000 followers). But then I began to look more deeply into the science behind many of the claims of the likes of Stardusk make. I began to hear sophists like Barbarossa make imbecilic statements about politics and economics. I began to see the raving misogyny of guys like Goodfella (fuck, I wish he’d take the marbles out of his mouth when he speaks). I began to think more deeply about the nihilsm that undergirds much of what Spetsnaz says, even while being deep and brutally vulnerable and honest from his POV. And I realized that most of what was being offered was an ontological dead end, and if you don’t understand that statement, consider what the fuck else you might not understand before lecturing us here.

    Then I found TRM. At first I argued but was challenged to learn – and I did. I read and listened and began to dive even more deeply into the science behind all of this outside of the manosphere. Evo psych, evolution itself, biology, social order and its evolution, sexual strategies and behaviors – and I started to see that what was going on was not a prison designed to make me suffer. Instead I realized that what was going on were a bunch of adaptations socially, psychologically and biologically that had me be who I was and experience the world in the way I did. I began to understand that women were not out to get me, but were in fact responding to their own environment and other drivers.

    Most profoundly, I began to understand intersexual dynamics and the role I played in the troubles I’ve had in my life. I saw how my own betaization and Blue Pillness, my pedestalization of women, ,made it impossible for my wife to respect and love me. This was a hugely bitter pill to swallow, and initially, the shame of it was overwhelming. My ego was so invested in believing that I’d been screwed over that it was impossible for me to see my part in the matter. But over time, as I reframed my reality and used what I was learning in the field, it became clear that my life didn’t have to go the way it had.

    I also got to the point where I let myself off the hook as I recognized just how badly I’d been confused by a society sending massive mixed and false messages to men. I really thought that I showed my love to my wife by being a good provider and Dad. I didn’t think I needed to seduce her and be her leader and maintain a strong masculine presence – equalism had seeped in deeply. When I realized how all this happened without me knowing, well then I popped and my anger began to drizzle away, and then just fell away completely. No one is to blame – it’s just how it is.

    SunWu made a great comment above. Nobody escapes our biology and the sociology of our society, nobody. We can either play in it intelligently and to serve our own interests and desires, or we can resign in anger, cynicism and hopelessness. I chose the former, MGTOWs choose the latter. The two choices are not equal in merit or correctness. MGTOW is wrong, it’s not just another equally valid path. MGTOW is soul death for masculinity and positivity and true power for men. Embracing our masculinity and power is an incredible thing and is also quite humbling if you are only figuring it out in your early 50s as I am.

    I could get stuck in regret – I was. I could have just stewed in my anger – I did, here on these pages. But instead, I took on the challenge of self improvement and saw the possibilities for myself in shouldering the burden of performance gladly. I decided to step up and play full out and to stop giving myself excuses and allowing myself to be satisfied with petty, delusional ego gratification. I decided to own my greatness and live into it.

    It’s not easy. In some ways, it’s harder than ever as in certain moments my own flaws and weaknesses and bullshit are inescapable now. I can’t kid myself anymore. There are terrifying moments of stillness and clarity when I can see so clearly my own culpability in the things that I whine about or wish I had or want to be, with no delusions, ego or other distractions. It’s a excruciating to rewire myself at 53 and sometimes I think it’s an impossible task. But I don’t give up – I will never stop striving to be my best self and will continue to press myself to play full out in life.

    And no, I have no respect for any man who supposedly has digested the Red Pill but refuses to do likewise. None. And never will.

  37. Long story short, there’s a lot of ways for one man or group of men to tell other man / men IF you are not doing it MY WAY you are DOING IT WRONG!!.

    That’s what the Elam /Roosh thing boils down to. That’s what militant MGTOW popping in for a series of rants boils down to. That’s what MRA vs. PUA snarking boild down to.That’s what too many woof-woof-woof fests in the comments here boil down to.

    Hey, if I’m going my own way and I DGAF about most of the rest of humanity, then what possible reason is there for me to wander around telling a bunch of other men You’re doing it all wrong!.

    We men don’t herd very well. We can form a hierarchy, define authority and responsibility, figure out who outranks whom, but we don’t herd well at all. Women herd quite well.

    Part of the feminization of the modern world has brainwashed men into trying to be herded like women, to ditch thinking for emoting. Thinking leads to planning leads in time to action. Emoting leads to more emoting. Whining and bitching is a form of emoting.

    “Think for yourself, it ain’t illegal yet” – George Clinton

  38. Posted too quick. Part of all this woof-woof-woof stuff between MRA’s vs. MHRA’s (there’s a diff) vs. PUA’s vs. MGTOW vs. various redpill vs. the churchgoing red-sorta-pill is this: there’s no hierarchy. None. Nobody outranks anyone else, and so like puppies in the back yard various men are striving to gain status and thus rank over other men.

    That’s the human politics of it.

    The reality politics of it is this: not every M***** man or bunch is operating off of the same premises, and anyone trying to salvage 1970’s equalitarian feminism is basing his / her / its position on a false premise. The egalitarian premise is false, it is scientifically disproven, it’s like the heliocentric cosmos of ancient times.

    Beyond that, the ever recurring issue of female agency (do they have it? If so how much? How long can we go on about it instead of doing something useful?) is a premise that isn’t shared.

    I think this point is clear. When two men have a different view of reality, and never admit that to themselves, then there’s not much communication going to thappen.

  39. Scrib: “I’m not LARPing here – I’m out to save my fucking life”

    Anon: “We men don’t herd very well. We can form a hierarchy, define authority and responsibility, figure out who outranks whom, but we don’t herd well at all. Women herd quite well.”

    We herd just fine when our life is on the line.

    When we engage like our fucking life is on the line, then we really can start living. I too engaged in red pill awareness and game like my life was on the line (It wasn’t, but no matter, I thought it was in the fall of 2013) and it is only when you realize that you really are in a scenario to save your life that you can really start living (in today’s buffered society). Mine was a figurative struggle, but I submit that the figurative is valid and strong in red-pill masculine game for those that choose to engage and advance the ball.

    And only those that want to cheat death with ego investment lies and false releases from constraint– men who refuse to acknowledge their own mortality–refuse to really live. Not all ego-investments are bad, just the one’s that are.

    Ref: “The Way of Men” by Jack Donovan. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007O0Y1ZE/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb

  40. @scribblerg

    Let me get this straight. You used to be a MGTOW until you found TRM. When you first found this place you argued for a while until you started to see what Rollo was putting forward.

    As for these new MGTOW humps, they can all piss off. No need for them to argue for a while until they start to put the pieces together.

    Sorry guys, I guess there is only room for one former MGTOW here.

  41. Reading posts from readers are just as fascinating as the post itself. I’ve gotten to where I don’t even watch news or other forms of pop culture that much. I just tune in here and other blogs. I’d rather read Rollo, YaReally, Blaximys, ect… responses than indulge in pop culture.

  42. I think there was a spell check problem there. Way too much Evan Williams on a Sunday night before the work week begins. LOL

  43. @Is This Thing On?

    “scribblerg

    Let me get this straight. You used to be a MGTOW until you found TRM. When you first found this place you argued for a while until you started to see what Rollo was putting forward.

    As for these new MGTOW humps, they can all piss off. No need for them to argue for a while until they start to put the pieces together.

    Sorry guys, I guess there is only room for one former MGTOW here.”

    I think what he’s saying is he’s pissed about is the zealot mgtow guys that don’t come here for actual constructive debate and self improvement, but come time and time again basically making the same statements over and over again, after they have been addressed.

  44. @SJF: “We herd just fine when our life is on the line.”

    Deer herd. Wolves pack. Although they are both groups with an internal social structure, we use different words for them because they are different.

  45. Actually many MGTOW realize and admit that women hate pussy beggars and prefer pussy takers. But to them, pussy taking is too dangerous a game to risk playing.

  46. @scribblerg

    “Also, stop trying to be the thought and comment police here – you may want “peace”, but what makes what you want any more important than what I want? Answer: Nothing”

    Objectively ………..ya provides more value than you . so the general consensus would like him to stay since he actually provides helpful commentary and advice .

    meanwhile outline of scribblergs conversations.

    rather than just ” I AM ThE ALMGighty SCribBLERRGG! (cue life story about how the almighty scribblerg ((use)) to be this….that…irrelevant stuff..begins ranting on everyone else….)

    someone replies

    ” YOU DARE reply to the mighty SCRiblLERG! Hate filled reply to them “Now you are the SCribblerG’s! bitch!!!”

    Whoever he replied to just wonders why his ego is so huge on the internet.

    @yareally Any advice on …getting a chick you didn’t have time to fuck when she was super into you back into you. Honestly I don’t care but it’s out of my comfort zone so it’s fun to try and find out.

    Basically I met hot chick 5’8 big ol’ tiggies nice ass. Jailbait (looks 23) I met her like 3 months ago . now she’s 18 ( she told me)
    ( the tingles dried up I think . Now and then I make new ones )
    That 3 month….period of nothing though

  47. Actually many MGTOW realize and admit that women hate pussy beggars and prefer pussy takers. But to them, pussy taking is too dangerous a game to risk playing.

    It’s still an attitude of self-limitation and standing in your own way. Sure a plain ol’ pussy beggar is pretty pathetic, but fearing the pussy pass? Shit’s on the same level to me.

  48. I have heard that it used to be in the old times; eunuch was a job description. Some men voluntarily took up such jobs. Some men have no use for women. But it might appear that arrogance and/or cognitive blind spots in some of us make us completely oblivious to that fact.

  49. @Scribblerg

    ‘Most profoundly, I began to understand intersexual dynamics and the role I played in the troubles I’ve had in my life. I saw how my own betaization and Blue Pillness, my pedestalization of women, ,made it impossible for my wife to respect and love me. This was a hugely bitter pill to swallow, and initially, the shame of it was overwhelming. My ego was so invested in believing that I’d been screwed over that it was impossible for me to see my part in the matter. But over time, as I reframed my reality and used what I was learning in the field, it became clear that my life didn’t have to go the way it had.”

    This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

    Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

    Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

    It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

    How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

    What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

    All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

    This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

    My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

  50. Maybe this is what would work: What if I just separate my life into two spheres.

    One is devoted to things I care about, regardless of what women think about it. In fact, I’ll just keep that sphere totally separate and not even mention it, that way I don’t end up trying to sell myself to women with it the way the beta workhorse always tries to rely on what he does as a way of qualifying for women. In this sphere I’ll cultivate a new idealism, but I’ll keep it entirely hidden from women so that I can be sure it’s mine and not some unconscious attempt to be attractive to them. If women ask what I do, just make some stupid joke: “I’m a wizard,” etc., whatever. And this will be the more important aspect of my life, the one that actually matters.

    The other sphere is devoted to getting laid. The point wouldn’t be to find a relationship, but to get laid, spin plates, and so on. I’d want nothing more from women than sex, since it seems as if this is all they are really offering anyway. In this sphere, I’d just totally give up on the idea of relationships entirely and I’d rely completely on whatever cocky jerk charm I could affect, even if it’s bullshit at first.

    If I did it this way, maybe it would help me sort out which desires and aspirations are actually my own and which are really just a subconscious attempt to qualify for women. I could establish a sense of self apart from how I believe they perceive me and from there make myself the mental point of origin and cultivate frame.

  51. @Divided
    Like the man that got chased around the tree by a bear i am an expert on one tree and one bear.But after reading the spheres theory I believe that if I stick with the first sphere I will be happier more free and true to myself and probably get more pussy because of the mystery and just being my own man.As the second sphere looks like a week plan b in case the idea doesn’t work well.I’m not thinking out loud as it may create the illusion of vaccilating that would bring on mutiny imediatly.

  52. @ Rollo & everyone who seemed to be commenting on the MGTOW thing.

    Going MGTOW was never about completely segregating yourself from women. Barbar who was the person who created this modern version of MGTOW is dating long term. But people refuse to acknowledge that, and by people I am talking about people within the MGTOW community.

    Because I am personal friends with Barbar, SD, Spetsnaz and people who are being held in high esteem within the community I know that these people do not care what people choose to do with their genitals. It is up to the individual. Engaging with women is not pussy begging. Their disagreement with PUA related messages has always been that it prioritises the feminine.

    “You have to be like this because women like this kind of things”

    That is the kind of PUA message that they disagree with. Rollo’s writings have always been very different in terms of what they offer. They explain things regarding female nature but there is nothing prescriptive in them. It is mostly about man understanding himself not in order to get women, though women come as a side effect of a man who knows his worth and his place in the SMP; but in order to live a fulfilling life.

    Rollo may add that women are necessary in a healthy life for any young man/ man in general and I tend to agree with that, but they don’t think so. I have in fact met a lot of happy guys without women in their lives and they seemed to be content with themselves. If someone is content with women or without women; then I don’t give a fuck. That’s been my motto forever.

    It is why writers such as Rollo are held in the highest esteem. The message for men to accept and re-introduce themselves to the masculinity that is being hated by the rest of the world, is a message I can understand.

    The MGTOW Monk message of fear and intolerance which seems to be what a lot of these people are preaching nowadays, is not and was never supposed to be the MGTOW message. In fact this is the main reason many of the guys have left the community, along with threads of doxxing, because you cannot be allowed to have an opinion against these people.

    I deleted the video about the differences between Bachellors and MGTOW, because I don’t care to influence where this goes anymore. I think the ship has long sailed and it’s heading towards an intolerant and hateful movement that I don’t want to be personally associated with.

    For me MGTOW was always these 5 things and I will quote them here:

    1) Do not get married and do not cohabitate especially if you will end up being legally married in the end
    2) Study and Understand female nature
    3) Understand that the system that you live in is inherently gynocentric; that is, it promotes the female over the disposable male.
    4) Study and understand men and by extension yourself; Know thyself and shed your ego
    5) Live free as a self-actualised male

    But again that’s how I interpreted the message for myself. Unfortunately not everyone seems to agree.

  53. @Nastynate – Former MGTOW and even those asking intelligent questions based on actual knowledge of what’s being discussed are great. But the constant “you are pussy slaves, MGTOW is male liberation” horseshit is something quite different. And of course anyone is “welcome” here in the sense that Rollo runs an open forum. My point is that if you are here to fight for MGTOW (eschewing social interactions with women) then why bother? It’s annoying and counterproductive.

    Rollo is never going to wake up one day and say, “Gosh, them MGTOW are right, women – and particularly their vaginas – are made of kryptonite.”

  54. @Mersonia – I agree YaReally’s commentary on pickup is world class and brilliant. But taking that authority and then telling others how to comment isn’t warranted. I know it’s hard for you to see the difference due to your blinding hatred of me, but try to actually base your comments on what I say, not what you think I said.

  55. @Rollo: “If you answer yes, then how does that not make you a ‘pussy beggar’?”

    Sensei, if I’m understanding this correctly, could it be said, that adopting this view is basically negotiating desire on some level.
    In other words, MGTOWs not playing the game doesn’t negate it’s existence, or, its impacts on them, not to mention, the burden of performance.
    I think this is the reality that many of them find hard to accept.

  56. @Divided – A very honest comment, thanks.
    “Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. ”

    You are simply wrong. You don’t understand behavior, psychology or the social aspects of it at all. Any individual woman is at the effect of so many factors. As well, the “dog’s balls rule” always applies for all humans, men too. That rule is: Why does a dog lick its balls? Answer: Because it can.

    What you demonstrate very neatly in your comment is the “equalism” Rollo decries and identifies as the key element of Blue Pill thinking.

    Fyi, note to others: This is how to comment productively on TRM. Divided actually asks specific questions about how I see things and shares how he sees them. He didn’t say, “Dude, I have the secret to male liberation and women are poison”. Sadly, I don’t think there is much that can be done to help him as he also reveals just how ego invested he is in his position.

    Divided, how can you possibly believe what you believe and participate here? Have you actually read Rollo’s Year 1 & 2 posts up top? What you really need to get is that women are at the effect of their own “Blue Pillness”. Keep in mind that this really isn’t working well for women either. Take the young Emily who recently was sharing with us here. Running around jumping on any cock she finds, then becoming a half assed Christian and preening that about as compensation. The girl is a mess, i guarantee you. Most women are a mess as a result of our current sociology.

    Surveys show women are less happy than ever. I actually think this is in part due to so many men Betaizing, as a woman can never truly be happy when she isn’t partnered with a man who is dominant and strong.

    Don’t wish things were different, wish you were better. I know, it’s a harsh truth to accept, but those are the rules of the game of life – not just getting laid. Also, keep in mind thatGame, as explicated here, is about much more than getting laid. It’s helped me with my sisters and female clients and every woman I meet. It’s not too much of an exaggeration to say that woman walk around craving strong, dominant, high value men and that they are suffering in part due a dearth of them.

    The burden of performance isn’t easy. But you can either shirk it or shoulder it, you can never escape it.

  57. @Niko

    Their disagreement with PUA related messages has always been that it prioritises the feminine.

    “You have to be like this because women like this kind of things”

    That is the kind of PUA message that they disagree with.

    What reason do you have to disagree with it? Because what I see is this: the majority of MGTOW I see show up here are still clearly interested in getting their rocks off. They clearly recognize the difference between doing so via masturbation and doing so via actual sex with a woman. There’s rarely any disagreement that fucking a chick is more enjoyable and does a better job of fulfilling the need.

    Where we differ is at the point of choosing between the two: settling for jerking or choosing to work at getting to fuck women. If you settle for jerking, you still might get chicks from time to time yes. I’ve spent the last 20 years of my life (more or less) like that and gotten to an N of 19. However I was dissatisfied with the long dry spells, the quality of ass I got, and the general feeling of powerlessness I felt in the process. I wanted more and wanted to take the actions required to do something about it. It was a conscious choice on my part to say “I will do what it takes to get the more satisfying option of the two”.

    PUAs step in after a guy makes that conscious decision and say “If that’s what you want, then here’s what you have to do to get it”. You see what you’re missing there? YOU make the decision that you prefer pussy to the old low-five, they’re just telling you the reality of how the mechanics to make that happen works. Of COURSE they’re prioritizing the feminine; they’re explaining to you how to manipulate a woman in to exhibiting behaviors you want. Part of manipulation is giving a person the smallest of piece of what they want that nets you what you want. The reason behind your doing that though is to achieve your own ends: “I want to get pussy for myself.” Yes, she’s going to get some of what she wants, but she’s going to get that either way from clueless Blue Pill chumps and Alpha Cads. Where from you or somebody else, she’s going to get it.

    The difference, then, is whether you are getting what you and by extension the biological overlord really want or not. It is a conscious choice on the individual male’s part to learn how to meet that need or not. She’s getting what she wants either way, it’s just a matter of if you can get yours while the gettin’s good.

    PUAs aren’t telling you that you have to do it; hell I’ve heard YaReally clearly express here that he’s fine with guys who don’t want to compete. More pussy for him. I completely agree with that. In a way I hope every MGTOW commenting and reading continues to avoid PUA advice like the plague, because it just makes my job easier. It really does. Less competition for me? Fuck yes I’ll take that deal. But to try and tell the dudes who’ve made the choice to seek out pussy that the PUAs somehow made the choice for them because they focus on what chicks want out of necessity to achieve that goal, or that biology is somehow irrelevant and should never be a part of their decision making process is patently ridiculous.

  58. @Everyone, regarding current comment kerfuffles…

    I have said previously that all aspects of RP thought CANNOT afford to be be fighting each other tooth and nail. We are up against too much to expend that much energy in tearing each other down. We are fighting both biological and societal forces, some ingrained with us, and infighting to the death is counter-productive.

    Men should be be able to find enough common ground in the crap they go through to treat one another as allies when it comes to the forces trying to enslave them and treat them as expendable.

    YaReally’s got a point in that men (and women who truly get RP…if they exist…) have to keep in mind the common interest here over the differences, and like with ANY discussion, how things are phrased and how you approach arguments can have a major effect on how it turns out.

    I don’t have ANY beef with the general viewpoints of any of the schisms of RP…and I suspect most people don’t either. You can make a valid case for any one of them, from MRA, to MGTOW, to PUA, particularly depending on a man’s current circumstances.

    For example, a man who has been badly burned and is still reeling from getting hit with RP truth may be better off being MGTOW simply to give himself distance from the influences of women to better comprehend and deal what he’s been through. I daresay it might be a lifetime solution for a man who, for whatever reason, is going to be a decided disadvantage when dealing with women.

    It is likely particular practitioners (Roosh, Elam, etc.) who tend to raise the ire because of both how they demand complete subservience to their viewpoint, and belittle how others view things to the point of mockery (and to some extent even their personality). Roosh, for example, I lost all respect for when I pointed out how an article on ROK was utter hogwash in its distortion of historical fact, and he shrugged his shoulders.

    That doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with someone’s viewpoint, or that they can’t disagree with yours. In fact, it is insane to think you won’t disagree. It just means you try to respect where someone is coming from, and understand that their experience or current circumstances or mindset might be extremely different from yours.

    For example, if you are a natural and were born/raised one, you are NOT going to fully understand a guy who’s been Beta all his life. You’re not, except maybe 1 in a 100 guys with exceptional insight or empathy. Considering that, you need to have a certain amount of patience and understanding with someone stumbling in here repeating stuff you know first hand is rubbish.

    Ditto with a guy who a decades long incel at all versus a guy who was married and subsequently divorce raped. You can be told what it is like vividly by the other, better you are not entirely going to get it without living it.

    Bottom line, try to both be respectful when advancing your point of view, and listen to what the other guy is trying to say, even if you disagree with it. I have had to swallow my pride here a few times when something I asserted was met with contradicting evidence and facts, but learning something was more important to me than my pride.

    Having said that, I think the trouble also tends to lie with people who are not honest brokers in commenting, and here is where I disagree with YaReally somewhat in that sometimes people deserve a smack of spiked clue bat.

    Yes, I cannot say, for example, that every female commentator here has been treated fairly and by the axioms I laid out above, and I won’t. I think anyone coming here, female or not, deserves a modicum of respect until they prove they are not worthy of it, but therein lies the problem.

    I WILL say that quite a few of them that I have seen here do not come here to debate, but to spread the same tired tropes, over and over, and when engaged in debate, resort to all sorts of tactics like shaming and name calling. Yes, plenty a ‘cunt’ has been thrown around in this space, sometimes a bit too freely, but so has any number of personal attacks against certain commenters and men in general from women who cannot handle being challenged on their horseshoe.

    That also goes for certain male trolls who either parrot the FI talking point or are so beholden to their viewpoints that NO amount of facts or logic are allowed to interfere with their Ignorian Chants.

    I have had my run-ins with a few people here, and I believe that it was only after they showed a complete lack of intellectual honesty and/or willful ignorance that I got heated with them.

    And let’s face it, this world needs places where men CAN come and vent because, as we all know, society is not friendly toward men speaking their minds unless it follows the FI/PC script. I think any women venturing in here does so of her own volition, and she is free to leave at any time. Ditto for anyone coming here trying to tell us lies, doubly so when they do it with an arrogant sneer.

    So, am I splitting hairs here? No.

    I am saying that we all should try to respect anyone coming here with honest and differing opinions and try to understand before refuting, and then do so with a mind to try and persuade rather than pillory because we have same general goal in mind; a better life for men, one of freedom and happiness.

    For all the others wasting our time trying to tell us Slavery is Freedom, that 2+2 = Wednesday, and that we are part of the ‘Rape Culture’ for having penises, a hearty ‘FUCK OFF, YOU CUNT!”, irregardless of gender, sung to the tune of ‘Kumbaya’.

  59. This should have said :

    “Yes, plenty a ‘cunt’ has been thrown around in this space, sometimes a bit too freely, but so has any number of personal attacks against certain commenters and men in general from women who cannot handle being challenged on their horseshit.”

    Autocorrect is a pain in the ass…

  60. @DividedLine Sounds like you’ve moved on to acceptance. 🙂 congrats dude. I don’t know if you saw that post I had about Hunter S. Thompson’s letter to his friend about life. You might like it.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1wd4jz/hunter_s_thompsons_superb_advice_on_how_to_find/

    Anyway, regarding the general tone of things around here. You can rack me up as a success story (internally and marriage-wise at least.) Looking back though I think really only Blaximus(I do listen to you dude), Forge, Rollo, YaReally and a full smattering of random people ever truly helped. And I fully admit that I contributed to the tone and shit, but I have to say I have made the decision recently that I’m never going to send my kids to the Manosphere(unless things change). I’ll teach them the fundamentals, but I’m not sure it’s appropriate for a <25 yr old that doesn't know himself yet.

    "That’s why I’m not flat-out scolding anyone in particular and like I say it’s not my blog. I’m just dropping a reminder that this is one of the few places I would actually send (and have actually sent) newbies to learn about this shit"

    @YaReally

    You're a HUGE resource for guys to have, and I hope you keep posting here or somewhere.

    "I may not end up reproducing and I’m not repressing any desire to have kids…I simply don’t have an interest in it and there are way too many risks these days to make it worth having them (though I’m open to my desires/views changing as I get older)."

    I'm like 75% of the way through your archive. It has changed my life. Thanks man. There isn't a lot I can do to repay you but I feel like we have similar base personalities, so I feel reasonably safe in saying this: First of all you would/will be a fucking Kick. Ass. Dad. Any kid would be lucky to have you as a father. And secondly, I don't care how it happens; a mistake, a marriage, pLTR, surrogate mother, whatever… As long as you were able to raise the children as your own you would not regret having kids. Now, there might be individual days that you would regret it. lol. Overall though it would/will be worth it. My two cents. 🙂

  61. @Sun – What do you think of this distinction? I don’t see what I’m doing here as pure PUA, and hence my weaknesses as a PUA, which I’m now addressing directly via Pimp and RSD. Holy shit, cold approaching is confronting for me as a 53 yr old man, I’m not “supposed to” be behaving this way, society screams it at me and I internalized it. That aside…

    Rollo has framed game in a much larger way here, in several ways:

    – Understanding how dominance and masculinity can be used powerfully across all social settings. Essentially, I’ve learned how social status works and is conferred here, and it’s incredibly valuable to understand. I get along with men better now, not just women. It affects my work and socializing and other involvements in any social setting.

    – Diving deeply into the personal psychology of the Blue Pill. Becoming “one’s own point of mental origin” gets at such a profound aspect of the Blue Pill/FI and seeing that and working on it is life changing in an incredibly way. I think this is where MGTOW get confused – they see the FI and take a look at how they’ve internalized it and seek only to reclaim themselves. We go further and see how one can so readily be more effective socially as a man by embracing his masculine identity and working comfortably from it. It’s positive view and actualization of our masculine identity.

    – Taking it into LTRs too, and not giving into the Blue Pill along the way.

    – Coming at it while being Christian and married, it just gives him an utterly different POV and makes him boil game down to essentials in a way other Red Pill savants simply cannot. It also gives him massive credibility when he speaks about how to make LTR and marriage work, versus the PUA community. Consider how Roosh has finally woken up to how empty just chasing pussy is, duhh, it shows how simplistic he is on a basic level. Rollo has a much fuller life and set of experiences outside of the PUA and Red Pill world that inform his approach and temper it with reality. He’s holistic in a way no other RP talker is.

    – Having a clinical psychological background makes him put his entire approach on a valid foundation versus the BroScience of many Red Pillers.

    – Not monetizing. He has no conflict of interest wrt the Red Pill. He doesn’t have to make moves to survive. As an aside, this aspect reflects on Roosh very poorly. Listen to how he claims he has destroyed his chance of having a normal career. Really? He couldn’t consult? He couldn’t use is training in biology to invent something or build a business around that isn’t PUA related? He could survive this and rebuild in a new direction, but he doesn’t. This is the easy path for him. He likes being “famous”. It was also utterly predictable. He made this tradeoff and now whines about it. Contrast Rollo’s approach and Roosh looks quite poor in comparison.

    Am I making sense? Fyi, for those who think I’m a fanboi, just go back through the comments and see how often I’ve challenged Rollo. I have no more heroes in life – one advantage of being an older guy. But Rollo stands the test of time and criticism incredibly well. The harder you look and more you press, the better he becomes. This is very rare in the world.

  62. Shit Andy,

    Don’t I get any mention/credit in my ego-protected, condescending ways (and the facade of my pulpit) for stimulating you to rethink your masculine purpose and mission for the better? Even if it was to just be the best father to your children you possibly can be? Or to get you to value your wife just a touch more as your spouse and the mother of your children?

  63. It doesn’t and I knew you did it intentionally. I was just testing your mettle. You passed.

    And I’m here to help with your masculine self-improvement. I was in your position 15 years ago and I made it through triage. Don’t discount my services.

  64. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

    ― Theodore Roosevelt

  65. @Divided Line

    Human males behave in this way. Hence the male workplace injuries and death statistics, hence the piles of male corpses in war.

    Death in the workplace as a side-effect of accomplishing something is not altruism. The risk I take in a job is weighed against the reward. The reward for myself is why I work there, not the good of the corporation. Workplace deaths are not men throwing themselves on the altar of the corporation, with no regard for themselves. Death statistics in the workplace is not an example of altruistic behavior.

    No mammalian species can manipulate their environment to turn it into skyscrapers, microprocessors, and nuclear weapons either.

    None of those things were built without self-interest in mind. Skyscrapers were an attempt at getting more rent income from less square foot of land area. Microprocessors are an ongoing attempt at getting more processing power for the same size silicon wafer (i.e., more power for less cost). Nuclear weapons were developed purely in response to a perceived threat from Hitler getting the bomb before we did (self preservation).

    …division of labor where tasks can be specialized. It really is a hive, like it or not.

    Just because labor can be divided does not make humans a hive species. Apes divide labor, birds divide labor, lions divide labor… Would you call these species hive species? I wouldn’t.

    Cooperation really is altruism if it carries an opportunity cost over non-cooperation. War or dangerous occupations are just an extreme version of that.

    Completely wrong. If there is an opportunity cost to non-cooperation, then self-interest is dictating my choice to cooperate, meaning I am not doing it for the good of the many, but rather for the good of the self.

    You are trying to stretch definitions past the breaking point to find one single counter-example that somehow “proves” me wrong, and it’s not working.

  66. @Rollo Tomassi

    What I do have a problem with is hardline MGTOWs discounting anything less that completely renouncing women on whole as “pussy begging”. That’s how they dismiss you being a PUA and myself for being a 20 years married Red Pill writer.

    So I ask again, is it a case of the social and legal norms of this age being what they are the reason for ‘going your own way’ or if those liabilities were removed or mitigated would MGTOW be less appealing?

    It’s pure virtue signalling. Once an “ideal ” is established, then by definition a human ranking system is established. MGTOW “idealism” is some kind of life where women cannot possibly impact/influence a mans life. It is a reactionary ideal sprung from recognition of widespread female manipulation of both individuals and the male species in general, and internalization of what that means.

    The inherent danger in red pill truths comes from the fact that their revelation to any individual can set up this kind of virtue ideal in a mans head. Men can get terrifically bitter about the recognition of the manipulation they and their friends have suffered at the hands of women with frankly more power than they have. When enough men with this ideal in their head begin interacting, it creates incentive to “virtue signal” about how “women free” they are.

    I doubt legal or social changes would affect these men once they’ve got their head wrapped around achieving MGTOW idealism. That’s the danger. I suppose women at some deep level fear this outcome, recognizing that manipulation always has blowback at some point.

  67. @Jeremy – Home run, sir. His view of altruism is reductionist and silly. And the virtue signalling insight? Holy fuck. Spot on. Well said.

  68. “I doubt legal or social changes would affect these men once they’ve got their head wrapped around achieving MGTOW idealism. ”

    Us tier 4 MGTOWrs have not given up on farming, but we do not want to be plantation slaves.

    Legal and social changes have been the prime motivation for tier 4 MGTOWers like me,
    The society says, “Man up and marry that slut”, we say back “f u”.
    Rollo having been married and Glenn having being divorce might be spared of this social bullshit, but most of us young MGTOWrs are reminded daily of this.
    We plate but no LTR, no marriage.

    Rollo always mentions symbiosis between male and female, but we live in a society. A society is all about “social contracts”.
    The current social and legal system is far too skewed in favor of females and thus actually the state, by transitivity.
    Women have been so much pampered in this system that all their entitlements are too high. Sandman calls them having the golden uterus.

    The broken social contracts and broken women has also been a reason many articles back it was discussed that in current environment, its not good to get married.

    We realize that both the society and legal system have failed the men and do not want to do anything with it, as much as possible.
    Its more about going GALT than running away from women. We will not uphold the system anymore which hurts us men.
    Thats why we look forward towards development of artificial wombs for having the next generation.
    We have withdrawn the consent silently from the social and legal system which upholds the FI.

    @All, regarding MGTOWrs coming to this manosphere.
    I myself landed on this site via the Alpha widow link posted in red pill reddit and then got hooked onto Rollo’s website.
    It is inevitable that new MGTOWrs would end up here and comment as many people post TRM links all over the internet.
    Many new MGTOWrs might not have read through the entire thing and commented because TRM worldview does clash with some MGTOW worldview.
    Descending like pack of wolves on new posters without giving them pointers would just turn them away from TRM.

    It might be frustrating at times, but they are not exactly repeat offenders.

    If you do not want MGTOWrs discussion their world view here, then you might as well add a flashing Marquee on the blog saying MGTOWrs not allowed.

    @Glenn, you are not debating with same new MGTOWrs in every article, they are different, trying to understand red pill. No harm in repeating your POV.

    As far as your hate for MGTOW is concerned, I think it is more like the self hating Jew or closet homosexual hating homosexuals phenomena.
    Some thing is deeply broken in you.

    Otherwise, glad to see more saner MGTOW discussion in these pages rather than the earlier fire breathing and straight disregard.

  69. @Shiva

    Rollo always mentions symbiosis between male and female, but we live in a society. A society is all about “social contracts”.
    The current social and legal system is far too skewed in favor of females and thus actually the state, by transitivity.
    Women have been so much pampered in this system that all their entitlements are too high. Sandman calls them having the golden uterus.

    What (I believe, I don’t want to wholly put words in his mouth) Rollo is saying at a deeper level is that social contracts, broken or otherwise are for the weak.

    Our reality is that the worst aspects of hypergamy have been unleashed, and so likewise one can expect the full duplicity of women to be on display. In this environment, learning game and gaming women is a matter of survival. Likewise, propagation of your genetic material is now challenged by your ability to tame that hellcat (so to speak).

    In short, we have no society, social contracts are akin to human farming (they’re the kinds of things organized religions come up with), learn game and learn to use it for your own individual advantage as a man.

  70. @Divided Line

    Tremendous comment, I think it’s the best description I’ve seen of how a bluepill mindset ‘feels’ like from within once one is redpill aware.

    A lot of the things you’re describing I went through as well. Maybe I should have written more about them as I was going through them, but I just saw it as being my issue to solve at that point I guess. Or I was just afraid to seem doubtful.

    I don’t have a magic solution for you, but maybe I can pull out some of the thoughts you have and illustrate how my thinking changed about them over time.

    “Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.”

    Hmm, how can I put this. I get what you’re saying and how this is frustrating, like sure this system is outdated and doesn’t make sense any more. But when I’m gardening or something I don’t complain about how the weeds are getting in the way of my crops and it doesn’t make sense that they should grow there because I’ll just pull them up and they won’t reproduce anyways. I’m not going to just refuse to pull them up because what they’re doing doesn’t make sense. Why on earth should it make sense?

    You know what else doesn’t make sense? Men’s preference for young, fit women on birth control over and above an ugly 35yo who isn’t. Heck, men’s desire to have sex if they have a condom on doesn’t make sense either, if nature kept up it should just be this massive turnoff to put a condom on and we just wouldn’t want to have sex till it’s off.

    This isn’t women, it’s everything. If you’re turned on by a hot young thing you’re just as controlled by outdated biology as women are. But the way I see it, this isn’t a thing to be angry or frustrated about. It just means that things are often more complex and intricate and unpredictable than if everything just went according to the plan we had in our head. And I like observing and interacting with a world that constantly defies expectation and reveals different levels of complexity. So when women don’t act in a way that I think it would be convenient for them to act, I just think that’s cool now. It’s this whole other aspect to reality that I can explore.

    Honestly, I’ve not heard any guy who’s getting laid well talk like this. They can still realize how fucked up it is, they can be like ‘Yeah this is totally impractical I guess we’re just following our monkey brains lol’ and then just keep having fun with it, but they don’t ponder it overmuch. So there’s that too.

    “Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

    It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.”

    Dude, if hot girls just threw themselves at you each time you went into public ever since you were like 13 and you had like 1/4 the libido you do I doubt you’d turn out any different.

    How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.”

    It’s good that you want it, you won’t possibly get it otherwise. I really think it boils down to just interacting with women in ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ fashions for a while as practice, until you begin to see the way they react viscerally to each attitude. I mean, I don’t force it or anything, it’s just some girls I acted beta with bc I liked them but wasn’t after them, and other girls turned me on so I started acting more alpha with them as I got better at this.

    Once you start to do that, you develop an intuitive empathy for how girls react the way they do. It’s just like, ‘oh, I’m being beta, of course she reacts like this,’ in the same way that if someone tells you a joke when you’re in a bad mood you might just glare at them for annoying you, but when you’re in a social mood you laugh. And if you tease someone when they’re in the wrong mood, you quickly recognize it and aren’t like ‘WHY?! WHY do they react with such HOSTILITY to my WELL-MEANT RIBBING?! Just yesterday I saw him LAUGH when that other dude did the EXACT SAME THING!!” Instead you’re just like ‘whoop, hit them with that at the wrong time.’ Lol, same thing happens with girls. Oh, I just wasn’t registering as alpha to her so of course she shot down my attempt to sexualize things.

    What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.”

    I mean, primarily we denounce it because it doesn’t work. I don’t think it isn’t an appealing-sounding thing. Just, why bother thinking about it. Like those pretty geocentric diagrams of the solar system. People who are still unplugging denigrate it and treat it with contempt, since they’re still having to distance themselves from it and it sounds really fucking appealing to rationalize keeping it around some days.

    “All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?”

    Yes, this selfless aspect of yourself, liking it, and fearing losing it – I really empathize with that. That was the most difficult part of unplugging for me. I was terrified that I’d end up being a ‘bad’ person, that if I let that go it wouldn’t be replaced by a different sort of goodness. And I got the largest part of my joy and meaning in life in being someone who naturally did for others. I didn’t even really expect tit-for-tat, though there was definitely a subconscious contract running there that I was unaware of – some expectation of a degree of appreciation and reciprocal good treatment.

    I think the only reason I really changed my perspective on that was born of pure necessity – I was miserable, in fierce emotional pain, I had no way out in the value system I was holding. So the only option was to change. At some point when I was breaking off things with the girl I was seeing at the time, I told her (was still at some level trying to hold on, there was no good reason I should have confided this really lol) that the old me, kind, gentle, patient, thinks of others first – that I liked that guy a lot. He was pleasant. But I wanted more from life, I wanted to do more. And so he had to die. And I knew he was gonna fight for his life like a motherfucker, but I haven’t lost an internal battle in my whole life and I was gonna win.

    She was sad to hear that. She was afraid I was going to become a ‘jerk.’ And you know? For a while I kind of did. It takes you a while to get your footing again. But I promise you, if the kindness and care and compassion you have now are anything more than a narcissitic facade – and I don’t get that feeling from you at all – you will find your footing again, and you will find a more effective way to express your desire to do good.

    Or do you think Rollo puts all this work in for us for his health?

    I think what you find after a while is that you still have the same impulse to compassion that you did before. But you’ll begin to realize that the way you expressed it before was actually quite servile – it presumed that the other person deserved, and would benefit from, your kindness. That sort of ‘niceness’ is as shallow as the sort of person who gives a dog a treat whenever it asks for one, and often when it doesn’t. Little burst of good emotions, and in the long run the dog gets fat and spoiled. You haven’t done it any good at all.

    But I don’t want to muddy the waters with dog analogies given your language above, lol. I’m not comparing women to dogs here, this is true of your kindness to anyone. You think you’re being a good person when you’re really just being co-dependant. You think you’re being righteous when you’re just being nice. And you know,

    It takes a paradigm shift to see things from a level where your previous actions were simplistic or corrupted. You can’t solve a problem from within the same mindset that created it.

    I’m just beginning to learn, but with that paradigm shift I see niceness and reciprocity as only one tool in the toolbox of ‘goodness to other people.’ Negative emotions feature prominently as well.

    “My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.”

    This is why I urge you to go out and try all sorts of things you haven’t done before so you can start to find out what sorts of things you might regard as improvements to yourself. You can start small; I just started by going to clubs sometimes (never did that before), dancing at weddings and shit when I’d always been too embarrassed to, and taking random road trips to little towns and national parks and just trekking or wandering and seeing who/what I found.

    Like I said yesterday, you don’t know how you’re actually going to react to a lot of things cause it’s like you’re in a huge dark room and you won’t let yourself walk in certain directions so you don’t know what’s there.

    Also,

    Look at the angst Sun Wukong and myself and Scribb often have after having some unpleasant experience shoved in our face in the field. That’s the thing that changes you. You learn things about your ego and your preferences and your preconceptions that you could never have found out just by thinking about it. And it’s the pain that motivates you to change your perspective on things. You never will otherwise.

    Pain begets strength. Pain begets wisdom. Just read Tolkien, he understood that profoundly.

    [….]

    Maybe this is what would work: What if I just separate my life into two spheres.

    [….]

    If I did it this way, maybe it would help me sort out which desires and aspirations are actually my own and which are really just a subconscious attempt to qualify for women. I could establish a sense of self apart from how I believe they perceive me and from there make myself the mental point of origin and cultivate frame.”

    Yes! Very good. You start there. This gives you practice with women, and it also allows you to figure your own self out independantly of them – so your ego isn’t all bound up in what they think of you and your mission and performance. They are separate.

    “If I did it that way, then maybe I could truly internalize making women an addition to my life, rather than the focus of it.

    And eventually you’ll learn (I suspect, I’m still developing the basic skills but I can see the beginnings of this) how and in what fashion you can actually care about women again. Not as a mother, not as a co-dependant ego prop, but for what and who they are. Different, not to be relied upon as a rock under your feet, but more like the wind that brings the cool, the heat, the rain and the clouds at diverse and unlooked-for times.

  71. for @divided line
    I like many went through the arc of red pill experience, the shock, anger, the repulsion and so on. Unplugging is hard because you are chucking so much in the garbage bin that you have invested a life in.
    Eventually however I found myself in a pretty happy place, granted it comes with some pretty fucking cynical days but generally I feel much happier being all RP all the time.
    If I had to describe the state I feel I am in now with regards to women, it is one of being patriarchal, viewing them broadly speaking as children. Sure they can be smart, wise even at times, fun some times and trying at others and they always come with a healthy side of Hamster that always must be considered.
    I think this is a big part of what you seem to be missing about women, sure they have the capacity for rational thought but your blind spot is missing that presence of the hamster which twists “rational thought” into pretzels to justify things they have said or done. Women’s greatest talent it seems is the capacity for self-delusion by way of their own “rational”ization.
    You can spend / waste lots of time thinking and worrying and moaning about why the hamster spins the wheel but it is wasted time. The simple fact is that the hamster spins the wheel. For those who can spot the hamster life is so much easier. It’s like a land mine, you just step around it instead of getting blown up by it and losing a bit of your mind every time you try and engage it.
    So yes, to echo some of your sentiments and others it is a logical approach, a male approach, to treat women as the oldest children in the house so to speak. They can be charming, fun, a PITA but no matter what they are almost always locked into a fundamentally different mode then we are.

  72. @Seraph (and others speaking about who has the “right” to speak here.)

    I can stand as an example of a female commenter who was here because I believe the current societal imbalance toward FI is detrimental to everyone.

    I made the mistake of opening with my own personal story of despicable hypergamy and immediately lost the potential to be seen to have any value to contribute to the discussion. (Except as an appropriate tale of caution to others of how really *extremely* bad hypergamy can get if not put in check.)

    I am not complaining about my treatment. I deserve my due for my mistakes, first for having a terrible life story, for which I am at fault, and second, for exposing it in a place so heavily weighted to already dislike and unwelcome anyone with my history. Many commenters took time to discuss rationally with me. Many more were cruel, justified or not. Most ignored me completely as is advised here to reduce the female voice.

    In the end it is clear certain voices aren’t valuable here, and since it is not monitored, the graceful thing to do is to self censor if you happen to be one of them.

    On the whole, I have. I did want to say, although I don’t comment, (with this exception) I still lurk and learn and struggle with how the situation could possibly be improved or repaired. (Both my own, and societies.) I am alarmed and disgusted by our current gender politics. I am parenting one child, with a second on the way. I feel responsible for teaching them reality and so I need to continue learning.

    Lurking does not detract for anyone and is a good option for the others like me.

    **Before any hate flood, allow me to circumvent by saying I will not post again unless compelled directly by a rational, subject-based question posed specifically to me. This is not my re-introduction and I will not attempt speaking even in defense of myself. Sling mud if you must.**

  73. @HopelessHypergamy

    There’s a new thread, but I just wanted to touch on your experience about something I did not get to with the last post.

    As Rollo says, it can get hot in this kitchen, and ANYONE coming here has to do so with the understanding that most everyone here has stumbled in after experiencing acute pain and anger over extremely hurtful and damaging events and/or a lifetime of disconnection with women due to the issues we discuss here. As a result there is a lot of resentment and anger built up in posters here, and not all of them have reached a stage where they can fully deal with it, which is WHY they are here in the first place.

    I think Rollo believes TRM is not here to accomodate people’s feelings or sensitivities. It’s here to allow full expression of those feelings, good, bad and ugly.

    If anyone cannot accept that, then they it is probably wise not to post here, only because it won’t change and shouldn’t change because men come here to vent among other things, and venting can sometimes be rough and ugly. They need a place to openly vent things which in their everyday circumstances they can’t for various reasons.

    If one chooses to participate knowing this, then one has to be ready to deal with the flares of rage and bitterness which will surface. It is part of the deal. Plenty of posters try to be calm and rational, but sometimes one has to lance the wound.

    I think some of the worse reactions from posters here come when others, usually women, come in and both have no idea of the suffering people have suffered here, and have even less empathy for it (you know who you are).

    I don’t think women, by default, get abused for being female, BUT what does tend to happen is women engage in solipism of various stripes, and the men here, having had to deal with it with varying degrees of negative results (some pretty dire), are not willing to put up with it. The women, use to having that solipism catered to, then find think themselves under attack merely because guys don’t play along…at all.

    Yes, some posters here can be rude right off the bat, but some newcomers here find it a rude awakening to have their dearly held beliefs and accustomed treatment both held in contempt by those who have been through the mill.

    I do agree with YaReally on the worry that TRM not turn into CH, where I stopped posting because it became a hangout for troll regulars more interested on pissing on one another with snark than actually discussing topics with some amount of intelligence. However, I am not sure the cure is always ignoring morons. Sometimes collectively mocking a troll makes them wither and skulk off.

    This brings it back to trying to NOT get into pissing matches with people with whom you have disagreements in the particular RP, when you overall agree on the general principles of it. Save the worst ire and vitriol for those that really deserve it.

    For myself, I have started a habit of skipping over convos on topics that are of not paramount interest to me and/or where it has devolved into a personal slug-fest. My time is limited and there is usually a lot of good content from others (Forge continues rock, to just name one) that I would rather get to instead.

    Of course, I can’t guarantee I won’t EVER get into with someone…I’ze only human.

  74. I’m with Divided Line on this issue. There are gradations between being a supplicating simp and being an alpha asshole. If being a genuine alpha asshole is the only way to be a hit with women, don’t know if I’m willing to go there.

    I have known a couple of alpha assholes. Yes, they did well with women. They are assholes all the time, not just with women.

    So the question is if you are essentially faking alpha asshole aka game, whether in time women will see through that and it won’t work. I have heard references to “fake assholes” by women so apparently it’s something they’re aware of.

  75. Sometimes, lately, a woman will do something very altruistic in front of me. She’ll go out of her way to help someone and make sure I see it. It flips a switch that causes me to like the chick more, if that’s her way of trying to get my attention instead of doing something bitchy like try to make me jealous, and also to be suspicious of her at the same time, like I know deep down she’s full of shit and there’s something dishonest about her display of altruism.

  76. Somewhat off topic but, speaking of performance. I can’t help but feel like in every encounter I have with a woman, it feels like I’m separating from my natural self. It’s almost like I’m putting on a show. This is shown around most of my family and friends. I’m more laid back, goofy and talkative about almost anything.
    I just want to feel like the same person, internally, no matter who or where I’m with.

    Overall, how do I just care less, or become more “outcome independent”?

  77. @Mitchell:

    At the risk of being cliche, knowing is the first step.

    Now what you have to do is what you have to do to develop strength at anything; use conscious control to exercise the attribute you wish to strengthen.

    It isn’t easy, but despite all the volumes written on it, it is simple.

  78. ^^^ and in a ‘free’ democracy no less. Habeas corpus? Not needed.
    The guy wasn’t even convicted of a crime yet they have imposed on his liberty, sexual liberty at that, and if he doesn’t comply he faces a 5 year prison sentence.
    Western govts have betrayed all the principles that took several thousands years to accumulate. Flushing everything that made us great down the drain. Sheer genius.
    Obviously, theses types of ‘big chaperon’ measures are necessary as all men are rapists, we live in a rape culture, teh patriarchy, blah blah, ad nauseum.
    No wonder the west is viewed as corrupt and weak by others. We can’t control our women. They, via ‘big chaperon’, control us.
    How many more incidents such as New Years Eve in Cologne need to occur before this emperor is proven to be, definitively, naked?

    Rant over.
    p.s. I’m beyond disgust. I’ve now moved on to cynicism and utter contempt for the elites running western ‘democracies’. A special hell awaits them all.

  79. @HopelessHypergamy

    Dunno if you’re still following this thread, but I’m glad you’re still following along at RM.

    Women aren’t discouraged from commenting here but they defiantly face some built-up pushback men aren’t ‘allowed’ to express in everyday life if they comment here.

    I got the impression you were really trying to improve the way your relationships turned out. Best of luck.

  80. Evolutonary psychology died in arund 2013. The remnants of it still remain, in the form of almost religious beliefs in it.

  81. @LeeLee — Spot-on. Surrendering to the confident/strong male or hopping on the back of the motorcycle to go wherever his goes is what it’s all about. Children always want a ride, and so do women.

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