Open Relationships

Functional_cuckoldry

During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

709 comments on “Open Relationships

  1. Hey Emily,

    You know that feeling deep, deep in the pit of your stomach? The one that tells you that something is wrong? It doesn’t go away. I just gets stronger and stronger. And you won’t marry him because of that feeling. And you know that’s true. You want to ignore it, you pretend it isn’t there, you WANT to want him. But you don’t. The longer you wait to end it the harder it is, and the more painful it is. We’ve all been there. It definitely sucks, but that’s life.

  2. The holiday “cheer” is running strong in the comments lately…

    Well, from my part, genuine thanks and happy holidays to Rollo.

    I also wish well to both ASD and SJF for helpful comments in the past weeks.

    There is a lot of wisdom in the comments, which I think is a bit unusual in the internet. But even here, one has to sift through a lot of text to find the good parts.

  3. I just want to give him a hug.

    Merry Christmas guys! Love you!

    I’m going out with my boys on Tuesday. If I don’t cold approach some hot girls please publicly eviscerate me for my embarrassing pussification! I’ll try and post an FR. If I don’t get slapped or make a girl cry I will declare it a victory (both things have happened to me in the past). lol.

  4. @ Emily

    I married someone of much higher ‘SMV’ than myself. It is harder. But I bring other compensatory features to the table.

    “There is still a very unfair double standard in our society, and yes, some feminists do go too far to reverse that standard, by shaming men and supporting sluts. But really, they are just fighting against the double standard that has always existed in our society.”

    The double standard doesn’t just exist in society, it exists as a factor built into biology by Mother Nature (otherwise known as God).

    Eggs are expensive and sperm is cheap. Pay attention in class. It is a double standard for a biological reason.

    “But I’m not sure I agree with you guys on what dominance is.”

    Maybe not that you have more time away from school studies and beta orbiters who validate you, you can actually read and understand some of Rollo’s essays. (And read the links in each essay.)

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/05/dominance/

    “You guys won’t get that because… for you guys sex is literally the most important thing in the world. As I said, high school mentality.”

    Nothing wrong at all with self-discipline. But when it becomes self-supression (resisting and fighting against your desires keeping them as buried and unexpressed as possible) then your boyfriend might have a problem. We’re not fascinated by your boyfriend, we’re fascinated with how he copes and will cope in the future with your hide the vagina routine. Once again, we have no problems with self-discipline. At all.

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/06/26/you-need-sex/

  5. ” “There is still a very unfair double standard in our society, and yes, some feminists do go too far to reverse that standard, by shaming men and supporting sluts. But really, they are just fighting against the double standard that has always existed in our society.”

    The double standard doesn’t just exist in society, it exists as a factor built into biology by Mother Nature (otherwise known as God). ”

    This. Why make an idol out of equality and equivalence. Who fucking cares about that shit?

    “We’re not fascinated by your boyfriend, we’re fascinated with how he copes and will cope in the future with your hide the vagina routine.”

    lol

  6. The so called double standard only exists as a function of assuming that the sexes are essentially equal except for a bit of plumbing.

    The assumption is false and there is no double standard. The sexes are sufficiently dimorphic that there are two single standards, each equally appropriate to their application.

  7. Wrong, SJF, it did exist in mother nature (to a certain extent.) But with modern contraception, a woman can now be as slutty as she wants with (almost) the same risk as men. There is no longer any reason for the double standard to exist.

  8. Gosh, “Emily”, you are sounding less and less like a 20 year old philosphy major on Daddy’s dime lately. I wonder why that is?

  9. So, because women can be as slutty as they want to be, then men should not have free will, choice and possess a trump card called commitment?
    Men should respect slutty behavior in women? What is your point? You’re upset the double standard (or male standards) are wrong? What should we as males advocate for?

  10. Guys, thanks to all who responded with insight and help. I am mostly responding to Forge’s post here, but I think I also address the points Dutchman and ADS gave me as well.

    “You emailed her again? Lord. If you tell a joke and no-one laughs, do you tell it again in a funny voice?

    
I mean, I get it. Been there. Your beta brain just takes over and you make it seem like just the BEST idea in your head at the time, then you’re like ‘hey wait, aren’t you supposed to NOT do that?’ “

    Yes, definitely it was in large part the Beta brain.

    There was a NEED to make things progress, I wanted this to go forward to work. Not only for my ego, but it would be great to have a fling or FB. Guilty.

    And part of me was not willing to accept that this person, someone I had known, that has been so overtly friendly and receptive, would act like this, Red Pill be damned! It just didn’t make sense for people to act like this…

    So, in the end, there was also a need to illustrate to my Beta brain what women are really like, and ALSO the shit that does not work. My standard, AFC shit. To show me, “No, sorry, champ. It’s all true. Take look for yourself.”

    I have said multiple times here I have read a lot of Red Pill stuff and understood the concepts, but whether I was really ACCEPTING it, really grasping it was another.

    I was not grasping it.

    I have NOT been exposed directly to a lot of this stuff, what women are really like. For years I have only my recollections of past interactions and my observations of others in the dating scene.

    This is the first time in a long time I have experienced this stuff first hand (in LTR, remember?).

    So, yes, my little Beta brain was doing it’s Beta thing, but it needed to be put through the motions, it needed to be shown what the deal really is, and I needed to see just how stuck in that Beta mindset I am and how completely defunct it is.

    I even responded to that last text message via the professional site…

    “DUDE! NO! THAT’S MORE OF THE SAME LAMENESS!”

    I know.

    I am not expecting a response, particularly a favorable one, at this point. I have given up on that, even though that little Beta voice in the back of my head squeeks:

    “No! There’s still hope, dude! She’ll write soon…really! Any decent human being would…just give her a little…more…time…”

    In fact, I am hoping for NO response because it will put the final nail in my that voice’s coffin.

    What I needed to do at this point is completely and utterly illustrate to myself what you guys have been telling me, what I have been reading for years. I need to squash that little voice completely by illustrating directly how fucking delusional it is.

    Does that make sense?

    It does to me. My mind is definitely still in Beta mindset in many ways, no matter what I have read. I sorely lack practice so this particular thing working out for me was a long shot anyway. I said at the least I wanted it as a learning opportunity, and it has been, as annoying and painful as it was. They say experience teaches best, right?

    And this has been painful, because the wrenching those Blue Pill nodules out of your brain is not easy. They are so ingrained that perhaps only direct, painful experience can hope to dislodge them.

    By her not acknowledging ANY of the shit I sent, it is like I can stand back from it and say to myself the following:

    “DO YOU GET IT NOW? HELLO?”

    Basically, my mind right now is rolling around this thought:

    “Wow, so…women are really like that?…Really!”

    My task going forward is to KEEP that rolling around in my head, and when another opportunity comes up, to yank this episode front and center of my mind and keep it there when making all decisions. Fuck, maybe I need to keep it that front and center, period.

    “Basically, a girl gave you attention and that’s to see how you react. If with escalation/ZFG if she’s not down, just NEXT – then she treats you alpha. If you let the window pass and start paying attention to her (in non-sexual ways cause that’s all you can do now) she treats you beta.”

    Again, sounds perfectly sensical and legit when reading, but when actually going through it…well, it only REALLY seems legit now, in hindsight. Again, to some extent, this stuff has to be beaten into people via experience.

    And I only now do get the idea that even if I get turned down, her perception of me is still Alpha, not a Beta to throw bones at.

    “Remember the redlight/greenlight face stuff. if you react to redlight face you’ve lost. Treat it like a shit test – ignore, DHV, tease, etc- and she’ll come back with greenlight face.

    
Girls do this to all guys they’re not sure about. That’s what shit tests are FOR. And they’re DESIGNED to be hard to pass, that’s the point. Lucky for you you’ve got the cheat sheet, so you have some chance of passing them before you’re in a place where you’d naturally be able to.”

    “Windows are brief periods of opportunity. When a woman walks up to you and shows massive interest, then you play it cool, she will feel like you’re a dud. You missed the window.”


    OK, so basically she dangles a weighty lure out there for me, waiting to see what I do, evaluating the response. She gives me a lot of touchy-feely, but not the “I want you to bone me hard stare” and I acted like I got the latter, which gives her the answer she was looking for. OR, that look she gave me when she said, “You look good” might have been it, but I was supposed to ACT on it.

    An Alpha would have not contacted her at ALL for maybe a month or six weeks, OR would have followed up with a immediate plan to get together now to test her true receptivity, ie, he doesn’t wait around for her in either method.

    Yeah…I get how my responses looked now in that lens. I also understand the importance of getting an actual meet rather than this horse shit texting/emailing thing.

    “Can you turn it around? Sure. If you bump into her again, and demonstrate she was ‘wrong about you.’ Then you’ll fuck her and she’ll tell you that ‘you know, I’ve always been a bit curious about you’ or ‘there’s always been something about you’ even though there isn’t currently lol they retrofit that shit.”

    Well, I won’t concentrate on turning it around. I need to act like it’s dead, because it is.

    Like I said above, my focus needs to be on absorbing this episode right now so it’s part of my new DNA. But I get your point here as well. I drop all contact, even if she contacts me, and if perchance we run into each other, I try for a reboot based on what I’ve learned.

    I will check out your Solipsism posts, thanks. I have a feeling they will be wildly appropriate.

    I think I will allow Dutchman to close us out here, with his succinct but accurate summation:

    “In that moment, she was super into you but over time her buying temperature cooled and you failed to spike it back up with your shitty email lol.”

    LOL. Ahh, you incisive dick, you!

    Guys, I really do appreciate the input. I really am glad there’s a resource like this to turn to. I am trying to encourage a friend of mine to check RM out and read up. I hope he takes the advice.

  11. @Emily: it is doubtful you are called into a sacramental marriage with your boyfriend. Stop wasting his time.

    If you want to decommodify yourself enter the novitiate. Or become an Amish woman. Either way have no thought of yourself for two years. Then you might have gained value.

    You are naive: it is all about sex: every time you attend Liturgy the priest, in persona Christi inseminates you. How else do you think the Word is to bear fruit?

  12. “Wrong, SJF, it did exist in mother nature (to a certain extent.) But with modern contraception, a woman can now be as slutty as she wants with (almost) the same risk as men. There is no longer any reason for the double standard to exist.”

    If I put a condom on, I don’t instantaneously lose my desire to bang her. Wonder why that is? Bilologicallt speaking, banging her is now pointless.

    Lol.

    Anyways. For the benefit of the learners here….

    The thing is, Emily isn’t WRONG exactly. She’s just speaking chick. Aside from the equalism stuff and the born-gain virgin thing, that’s a bit weird. But wrt what she wants from men, how she mocks us, etc….that’s HOW a woman filters for men who are actually holisticly dominant and congruent. She gets pissed off and annoyed, rather than turned on, by the sorts of things she reads here bc by talking about it we demonstrate to her that we don’t ‘just get it’ and so the thought of us being dominant towards a woman is repulsive rather than attractive.

    Without that generalized conception of you as just BEING ‘that guy,’ any aping of dominance or game just comes off as annoying, try-hard, or even dangerous. You’ll be shouted down.

    What she doesn’t ‘get’ at a limb iv level, and never will, is the way men BECOME ‘that guy.’ See ‘the male experience’ from Rollo.

    This is the training ground. Don’t ever let your women know that it exists. At least, not until your frame is unshakeable, and even then there’s no real benefit to it.

  13. Forge, Rollo, with all due respect, some of “Emily”‘s writings, tropes, turns of phrase seem…familiar, somehow. Maybe it’s just an accident that “Emily” sometimes seems to write very much like the woman she claims to admire?

    Forge
    She gets pissed off and annoyed, rather than turned on, by the sorts of things she reads here bc by talking about it we demonstrate to her that we don’t ‘just get it’ and so the thought of us being dominant towards a woman is repulsive rather than attractive.

    Eh, that’s one way to read it. Another way to read it – Rollo and others clearly DO “just get it”, and so “Emily” is drawn to interact with the men here because of that. Some years ago the blogger Badger referred to some shit tests as “rubbing up against his masculinity” – not starting fights for fun so much as pushing at him in order to feel him push back in a masculine and thus reassuring way.

    Huh. Just had a thought. Reading YaReally’s FR’s and viewing some of the vids I’ve gotten a conscious appreciation for the importance of spiking emotions in a woman’s life, how a constant emotional state (such as men often have) is just grey-out to them. Then some shit tests are as much for a woman to generate her own emotional spikes as to reassure herself that “yeah, he’s got it”. So running a version of the same Game YaReally et al refer to – spike emotions, run her on an emotinal roller coaster, etc. – is one way in an LTR / marriage to keep her from resorting to ever more intense shit-tests, aka “shit testing to destruction”. It’s a deeper version of “play with her, play WITH her” that I didn’t see before.
    I feel both smart and stupid at the same time right now…

    Anyway, “Emily”, whoever she is, likely gets some tingles from interactions here. That’s why she keeps coming back. Of course she’lll deny this, and some other things, but…watch what they do, not so much what they say.

  14. @Anon,

    Yes that seems to make sense on some levels. Why wouldn’t a woman in an LTR play out her own version of shit tests for enjoyment? Sometimes it can come in the form of teasing. They want that thrill and playfulness. With women being the creatures they are it can be easy for men to misinterpret if one hasn’t been clued into how they operate. Playing with her in a verbal wrestling match could be a good way to initiate foreplay in some circumstances.

    I have completely underestimated the importance and depth of shit tests with women my whole life. You all have been great instructors.

  15. @seraph

    “And part of me was not willing to accept that this person, someone I had known, that has been so overtly friendly and receptive, would act like this, Red Pill be damned! It just didn’t make sense for people to act like this…”

    I know that feeling. It’s like you can’t wrap your brain around the fact that a person you defined in pre-RP terms fits right in with the RP knowledge you now possess.

  16. @Forge the Sky – I’m of the mind that it would be better if everybody became more aware of the baser aspects of our human nature (both men and women, intra and inter-wise), and the BS machinery in our minds/culture that hide this these truths from plain awareness, which I think, all together = redpill

    Perhaps if that could be achieved we could all get on to better shit (like let’s get past the shitty shit and get on to perhaps the less stinky shit, whatever that is – for each to find out I guess).

    All this machavellian bullcrap that governs so much of my life is fun to play with (and people probably should get cool with it being fun), but at the end of the day, fuck man, it still isn’t satisfying enough for me. And, hell – maybe I just spinning some machavellian bullcrap myself right now….. jeez this particular rabbit hole is so deep,- sometimes I wonder – is it black hole deep!!?

    Anyway – I am still of the mind of wondering about all the psychic, physical, cultural, egotistical, intuitive, narcissistic, biochemical, hormonal, cognitive, and neural-network-algorithmic implications of having a pussy to play with as opposed to a dick to play with.

    I would be glad if Emily could speak on that. Doesn’t is sorta come down to (in a very binary-reducto way) pussies vs. dicks?

    @Emily – If you’re still around, and if I am not coming across as too much of a dick for your taste, perhaps you could tell me about the pussy experience (hey – perhaps I’m going for just partial dick-mode right now so I can hide behind that persona if you decide to paint me that way, but actually I am really hoping for a less devious interpretation on your part so that you might actually take this provocation to tell me something useful, because in reality I am actually very interested in the pussy perspective, no joke).

    Emily – if you are game, so as to get started on the right foot, perhaps you could enter into a thought experiment with me, that will sort of ignore that actual pussies and dicks for the moment. Here it goes:

    I have found it useful to imagine a world where there are no women or children (thus ignoring the need for sex and procreation aspects for the moment), to explore what a man’s life would be like if just purely lived for himself in a way that parsed away the urgencies and responsibilities of the life we instead find ourselves embedded in – the idea is to uncover some of the hidden aspects of manhood by ignoring the more pressing aspects. When I do this thought experiment this is what I find (and I think a whole lot of men would agree) – I would spend such a life endlessly exploring every frontier that met my fancy. Life would be one endless camping trip from start to finish, never settling down, a new horizon would always be beckoning, the succulent unknown stretched before me. There would be no houses, roads, infrastructure, cities etc. etc. – why would any man choose to spend his time building this when the luscious unknown frontier always beckoned? Such a life would be sublimely satisfying (except for want of women and children of course, that we are choosing to ignore for the moment, to uncover that which is hidden in the man’s nature).

    Emily – what would a woman’s life be like of there were no men or children? What there, hidden treasure revealed?

  17. Anonymous

    Emily is FILTERING. Not everyone is failing.

    Note when she reacts with contempt, when she has indignation, and when she starts doing that whole ‘cocky/sassy’ thing girls do around guys they’re trying to impress. It’s a combined bit of projection (she finds cocky/condescending attractive and so imagines men so as well) and a shit test – to see if we’ll crumple or not.

    But this is for the lurkers. Eventually you get to a place where you only think about this stuff if you want to do a post-facto analysis.

    I don’t think Emily is insanity. Insanity has tried the sock puppet business before and tended to blow her cover within a few comments.

    It’s just AWALT.

  18. I’ve got to say things have seemed a little dark around here in respect of views on LTR’s. I know it’s an occupational hazard in dealing with the RP as one must be cynical for the most part to keep their eyes open for FI bullshit and general female fuckery. I point this out not because I think it’s misplaced, lord knows we see a lot of fuckery all around us, but also because I think it’s not all that bad all the time. I know some will suggest that I am being moron for not being sufficiently cynical to sign onto AWALT. So to be sure, I do believe that AWALT, but at the same time perhaps I am wrong in assigning some weight to the possibility that some women can enjoy enough enlightened self interest to be able to check some large measure of their hypergamy much of the time, enough to get along with a reasonable well working LTR. Perhaps its simply a balance of AF/BB that works long enough to keep them vested for the most part or perhaps its deft use of game by her mate that achieves that.

    My point? You guys have been getting kind of dark about this shit. Yes, I agree, a woman can and will do terrible damage within a relationship if she is not managed proactively by her mate, e.g. gamed, over the long term.
    Am I buffering because I am in an LTR with a wife of closing on a dozen years of marriage? Sure, it may well be a buffer. Is it delusional to think that a decent percentage of marriages for example can actually be functional? I don’t think it’s delusional to imagine that a lot of people can get on reasonably well, even with the stirrings of our bio-mechanical overlord always beneath their skin. Marriages or other LTR’s can be made to work will good effect for a number of reasons.
    I know I am rambling, I just wanted to point out that I personally don’t think its all gloom and doom all the time. I sort of agree with the ideas that low pre-marriage n-count for woman is pretty important statistically, as is a dominant man with a mission in life and a good energy level. Looks matter etc. I do buy all that, enter the “burden of performance”.
    I personally see around me quite a few people who have managed to do that successfully, at least so far. To be clear I am in an UMC kind of milieu and it seems that has a better track record of maintaining marriages for a wide variety of reasons.
    None of this of course means anyone should ever let their guard down, their situational awareness must remain unclouded. Perhaps I am lucky and have stumbled upon not a unicorn, but at least a “:reasonable bet” that with some work can be managed to good effect and directed towards generally positive outcomes.
    Happy holiday’s to all, even Emily, bless her silly little heart.

  19. Wild Person, good luck on that opening with “Emily”. Should be interesting to see what kind of response you get. I predict either silence, or hamsterbation. Girlies don’t like walls of text as a rule…

  20. Forge:

    Anonymous
    Emily is FILTERING. Not everyone is failing.

    Yeah, I know. She tends to ignore me except when something really gets under her skin, like the “lies women tell” graphic about N. And we all know why…

    But it’s Rollo she clearly has the hots for.

    But this is for the lurkers. Eventually you get to a place where you only think about this stuff if you want to do a post-facto analysis.

    Right, but note that some men seem to approach that state in an intuitive way; they know something is off in a presentation by a dearie, but they cannot say why. For me it helps to have an explanation, and I’m seeing the women around me much more clearly.

    I don’t think Emily is insanity. Insanity has tried the sock puppet business before and tended to blow her cover within a few comments.

    Notice how quiet she’s gotten all of a sudden? Interesting, isn’t it?

  21. @Seraph

    Good, good. I remember back when I decided I needed to prove to myself that shit actually works like RP says it does. I met my old oneitis in a coffee shop and pulled out all the stops with my charisma, ability to explain and empathize. I spent about an hour seeing if I could get her to see my perspective, see how her actions were illogical, see if she could at least modify them a bit out of compassion for me. She listened closely. She had some degree of sympathy, and was quite upset to see how much I was suffering at the time. But she brought everything around to the feminine strategy, accepted what fit within that and rejected or reframed the rest. She accepted the positions I held to a degree only so far as she perceived they might allow me to ‘move on’ and let her branch swing. And in the end she could not understand why I didn’t just get another girl, NEXT, who was ‘better’ than her. She knew in her bones I could (she’s right lol) and didn’t get how I didn’t want ‘better,’ I wanted her.

    Some of her thoughts were changed. They changed right back as soon as she spoke to the next person about this. What I ‘got through to her’ on was contingent upon my charisma and presence. She fit herself to my frame. Then she went home and it wasn’t real to her anymore. Poof.

    Then I was like, okay. This shit’s real. And started focusing on gaining the POSITIVE reference experiences RP also predicts are possible.

  22. Forge
    Then I was like, okay. This shit’s real. And started focusing on gaining the POSITIVE reference experiences RP also predicts are possible.

    Excellent little report. The thing about Game is, a man doesn’t have to believe in it to make it work, although confidence surely makes it much more effective.

    I spent about an hour seeing if I could get her to see my perspective, see how her actions were illogical, see if she could at least modify them a bit out of compassion for me. She listened closely. She had some degree of sympathy, and was quite upset to see how much I was suffering at the time. But she brought everything around to the feminine strategy, accepted what fit within that and rejected or reframed the rest. She accepted the positions I held to a degree only so far as she perceived they might allow me to ‘move on’ and let her branch swing.

    Can’t say I’ve ever had that experience, but a much weaker version long ago extremely pre-Game. Especially the “quite upset to see how much I was suffering, But…” part. From a woman’s perspective pre-Wall and to some degree post-Wall, branch swinging is just the way of the world and so why can’t men just do that? Since women have no burden of performance, especially pre-Wall, branch swinging seems obvious and easy to them.

    Few women will ever learn “man speak” beyond the basics. So men must learn “woman speak” to a greater degree. Fortunately we are up to that task.

  23. Agent p,

    I agree. 100% (except I don’t know if anyone here has been dark per se)

    Its really easy to get cynical with all this.

    Monogamy is a perfectly acceptable sexual strategy for a red pill man.

    Sure, awalt….but not all women are the likes of Emily either. (Only good for sex)

    I’m just enjoying what my wife has to offer me as the woman she is.

  24. Emily doesn’t respond to me either.

    So I’ll just throw this out there.

    Women are pretty damn good for sex. Damn good. It’s almost as if they were designed naturally for it or something.

    I reject the assertion that men here think that women are only useful for sex, or that men here act like sex is the most important thing ( between men and women ).

    All men are best served by having a better understanding of sexual dynamics in the 21st century. Sex is important and necessary for a satisfying and healthy life. This is true for both men and women, but the focus in this particular setting is the male perspective.

    The atmosphere we exist in today is extremely anti-male/masculine. It is awfully un-natural. Generation(s) of women have been raised to use sex as a weapon to bludgeon men into compliance. Women use sex to get what they ( think ) want in all manner of contexts, financial, emotional and RELIGIOUS to name just a few.

    So since women tend to hold the pussy hostage, men must understand why this nonsense is the norm. There are mechanisms at work here, and to not understand these mechanisms only leads to conflict and frustration for both sexes.

    It’s not that sex is the ONLY thing men want women for. That’s a stupid assertion on it’s face. Sex is a natural occurrence – even fucking flies have sex. It’s women’s demands for ever more ” compliance ” and all manner of shenanigans that cause the constant and growing conflicts we witness today. The more ” control ” women assume of their …destiny(?) or whateverthefuck it is, the more chaos and confusion will ensue.

    Men’s knowledge will save them from becoming victims of the Feminine Whim Machine. If enough men find and utilize this knowledge, we will be able to hit the Emergency Shut Off button and possibly save humanity in the process.

    And if this happens, you, Emily, will be able to rest your little head and not be so confounded. You will Just Get It.

  25. Well said blax.

    Emily’s boyfriend reminds me of me. (Except my wife was a virgin)

    She played the religious hide the pussy game. At first it was “handjobs are a sin”, then after she did that anyway it was, “blowjobs are a sin”, then it was sex, then it was unprotected sex, etc…

    “We have to save SOMETHING for after marriage!”

    Then it was me fleeing a party after I bragged to her ex boyfriend that I took her V after 3 months and he never even got her pants off after almost 2 years. That dude was gonna kick my ass for sure, lol.

    Lots of slut shaming herself and premarital sex guilt. I could of handled all that much better.

    If I’d had the red pill at the time, I would not have failed so many of her Jesus shit tests.

    As it was, I was completely unprepared to counter religion, as I was a die hard Lutheran, and a beta.

  26. @Cave

    “Emily’s boyfriend reminds me of me. (Except my wife was a virgin)”

    Dude, Emily is a virgin too! Don’t you know all of that stuff she did before doesn’t count?

    “Lots of slut shaming herself and premarital sex guilt. I could of handled all that much better.

    If I’d had the red pill at the time, I would not have failed so many of her Jesus shit tests.”

    Does she still hit you with the religious stuff? I noticed elsewhere you said you are no longer Christian.

  27. Cave,

    I try to understand and respect a woman’s religious objections to premarital sex for the most part. I may not like it, or agree, but I’ll keep my penis safely in my pants.

    But….

    If a chick has been fucking and suddenly finds religion, and puts the pussy on a Jesus lockdown, I find that silly and insulting.

    I guess I’ve never been overly religious. Maybe that’s why my views are what they are. I consider myself spiritual, I’m a HUGE fan of Jesus but I have issues with a lot of his fan club at times.

    If a woman has already been fucking, then she will fuck me too. : ) We can make it a spiritual experience ( her screaming ” Oh God!!!” will suffice..).

    If a virgin is trying to hide the pussy, well..okay. I can accept that to a great extent.

    But the whole ” I fucked guys but now my new BF has to wait ” shit should not be tolerated. IMO, it’s just a female way of trying to regain the ” Prize ” status. And I DGAF about the justification exercises either.

    It is just conditional sex. It is a non-fucking-starter.

    ” Then it was me fleeing a party after I bragged to her ex boyfriend that I took her V after 3 months and he never even got her pants off after almost 2 years. That dude was gonna kick my ass for sure”

    Lol. Fuck that guy and his feelz.

    If a guy is willing to wait 2 years for some ass, you should’ve fucked her in front of him.

  28. Dutch,

    She is nondenominational Christian now. I’m actually a Buddhist.

    She hits me with “love” shit tests. Man, woman, one flesh type of deal. She reads a lot of purple pill style religious books that talk about being a good wife to me, which I’m happy to encourage.

    I usually play the love shit tests with some humor or sexuality. Sometimes I get serious and tell her I love her, but she’s gotta work for it lol.

    She’s red pill aware (ish). Openly disagrees with it (“hate speech”) and clings to the soul mate stuff, which is expected for a chick.

    Now that I think about it, with my height insecurity and all, her ex had like a foot on me…interesting.

  29. @Cave

    “Now that I think about it, with my height insecurity and all, her ex had like a foot on me…interesting.”

    And yet she didn’t fuck him….

  30. “If a virgin is trying to hide the pussy, well..okay. I can accept that to a great extent.”

    See, I didn’t accept it. I wanted her. That was all I knew. For the longest time I equated her making me wait with obligated compliance. Even rollo made a post on questions I asked trying to get to the truth of it. Still, I always thought that she was never into me because I assumed if she was, Jesus would of went out the window and she would of banged sooner. I guess I thought of it as If she was an Emily…when she wasn’t.

    Major breakthrough mentally for me blax, thanks dude!!!

  31. “And yet she didn’t fuck him…”

    Nope. For sure she didn’t, judging by his reaction later, and her nervousness and blood when I took her.

    He was like 6’6″, 250 pounds. And a much bigger cock. (Saw him in locker room, we were friends…)

    God I love it when shit clicks

  32. Cave

    Thank you. It is a pleasure watching you do your thing. Here’s to much more ” shit clicking ” in time my friend.

  33. “Just wondering… does her BPD seem to be a lot more in check than it used to be?”

    Hmmm….

    She has electronic copies of her treatments for BPD. I had never seen them, until I figured out the password the a couple weeks ago while she was Christmas shopping. (I check her phone and computer often)

    The diagnosis sheet said, “displays traits and behaviors common to those with bi-polar disorder and/or borderline personality disorder”

    The therapist went on to explain that he did not normally treat BPD’s. He said in his notes though that he took her on as a patient anyway, because he believed she was on the “mild” side of the spectrum and by treating her depression and anxiety disorders he feels those bpd “traits and behaviors” would resolve on their own.

    So…

    To me that meant 2 things:

    1. She’s mildly crazy. Which explained a lot about her actions in the past.

    2. All women will seem disordered to a man that does not know how to handle them…

    In other words, my frame was FUCKED.

    She needs a very firm hand, then she is fine (ish).

    So it’s a risk for sure. She’s done some fucked up crazy shit. But I haven’t handled her or myself very well either. Time will tell.

    I’m pretty happy with her right now. Most my problems are just inner game stuff now…

  34. Yeah dude I hadn’t seen you mention it in a while so I suspected that being in your frame probably helped her with that shit a LOT. That is GREAT evidence against the “game is just manipulating women!!!” BS. Props to ya.

  35. But we mostly agree that our SO should know the truth. After all, if he’s gonna judge then he aint worth it.

    You are so, so, so stupid.

    I know of women who think like this. They are in college. Like you. They are idiots.

    The women out of college actually finding man for life-time commitments are terrified of the slut label, despite whatever nonsense they spouted in college.

    Everything changes when you leave that little bubble, darling. It takes a few years. But it changes.

  36. CaveClown

    “I’m pretty happy with her right now. Most my problems are just inner game stuff now…”

    Hey, that is actually good news and should be a positive. Because you can control and self-improve you. She (or other women) will always be an un-knowable, and uncertain variable.

    I’m not so sure about Dutch’s assertion that: “I suspected that being in your frame probably helped her with that shit a LOT.”

    Doesn’t her BPD side resent you keeping frame because the hallmark of BPD is “always be pulling you into her frame”? I’m sure she was pissed at first. And maybe your current situation is because of you keeping rock solid frame?

    Besides inner game for yourself, what else would you consider a problem now?

  37. The reason most therapists will not treat BPD is because a BPD case is always looking for how to get the upper hand. She will always be biding her time, looking for an opening. If she can’t find one eventually she’ll become upset and lash out. Always keep an eye out for it.

  38. @Anon
    You guys keep trying to compare me to insanity as an insult. I don’t consider it an insult.

    @SJF
    You, as self-respecting males, should not hold that double standard. If you fuck lots of sluts, then so be it. Have at it, but don’t judge women who do so! If on the other hand, you respect yourself and commit to one woman, then sure, you can claim to be of a different standard.
    As for what KFG said… it’s the same logic we used to segregate and enslave black people. Different standards since they are different.
    Aside, but we are primarily different because of how we are raised and the society we live in. That society is changing.

    @Cave
    Don’t compare me to your gf. Those fake religious women annoy me as well.
    You don’t have any idea. My bf is the best thing in my life. And yet, if he gave me an ultimatum to leave if I dont have sex then I would let him leave. My God comes first.

    @Blaximus
    Men will always have a higher sex drive so naturally we will always have a higher value and thus more control. I agree with that, that’s a fact of life.

    As men I would say there are several ways for you guys to deal with that fact. One way is to find love, find someone who loves you and therefore there won’t be an element of manipulation and control in your relationship. Another is through selfmastery and religion, be the person who cannot be manipulated and controlled. Place more importance on God, and less on carnal desires. The last is to take advantage of the female psyche and work to destroy and manipulate us and make us submissive to you. You guys choose the last method and so I don’t respect you one bit.

    The red pill is gonna save us women? Really? Why is it that 99% of women react so negatively towards this whole thing?
    Maybe it’s cause we realize it’s a reactionary movement that wants to set back the status of women back around 50-100 years? Well, luckily for us we have the developing world as a good example of how life was like for women before women’s rights.

    @Wild Man
    Hmm, sorry we women are holding you back so much.

    B’yeah, as for your thought experiment. We’d probably do the same but with more gossip and better food.
    But I’l admit something, we need men more than they need us (in everything except sex.) So obviously men would be more comfortable in a world without women and children than we would in a world without men and children.
    That what you wanted to hear?

    @Rollo, my love who ‘I have the hots for’
    I read the double standards articles. I am not sure where these standards exist in the world. You just seem to be taking the most extreme things feminists say and saying ‘AWALT.’ But maybe I’m wrong and I just don’t notice these things in Texas.

    I understand your point to some extent. Why is it fine for us to expect financial stability and confidence but it’s wrong for men to want ‘purity.’

    But, I condemn the double standards against men as well. Why should a woman expect her man to be financially stable when she has the ability in the US to do the same? But similarly, how can a man expect his wife to be a virgin when he’s had 100 women. I’m gonna condemn the hypocrisy in both.

    Women and men both face double standards. I can write an equally long list of the crap we face that men don’t have to go through.

  39. Rollo-

    I want to take a break in the action to wish you and your family Happy Holidays.

    To be repetitive, Thank You again for providing such a useful space here for men to gain knowledge, not only of the nature of females and relationships, but also knowledge of self. the work visible here is pretty damn special.

    I truly appreciate the work you put in one this site. It has been, and still is, fascinating and challenging to come here and get motivated to THINK.

    Your work here has filled numerous gaping holes in my past and has given me a greater understanding of the ” why’s”. I also get confirmation to maintain Frame, and there isn’t any place else to get this type of …I want to say ” instruction “, but that’s not quite it…let’s stick with ” descriptions ” in such a way that it sparks deep though, reflection and action.

    You got a gift my man.

    Here’s wishing you health, strength and satisfaction. You’ve made a fan of me, and that’s from one who resists being a fanboy..lol.

    I look forward to further though expansion here at The Rational Male.

    Peace.

  40. But blah blah blah it’s Christmas and I’m here arguing with you guys.

    Soooo I won’t post for a while now. BYE GUYS.

    (Btw, I don’t post here for ‘tingles.’ I do enjoy the conversations though.)

  41. Emily-

    ” The red pill is gonna save us women? Really? Why is it that 99% of women react so negatively towards this whole thing?
    Maybe it’s cause we realize it’s a reactionary movement that wants to set back the status of women back around 50-100 years? Well, luckily for us we have the developing world as a good example of how life was like for women before women’s rights.”

    Incredible.

    Lmao.

    http://cdn.meme.am/instances/57516705.jpg

    Women react negatively because feminism has put/ is trying to put women in a power position over men. Is life better since the advancement of women’s ri….oh fuck it. Never mind.

  42. ” But blah blah blah it’s Christmas and I’m here arguing with you guys.”

    Fuck. They moved Christmas to the 23rd??? I gotta get home asap and open ma presents.

  43. What EM posted at 8:34 pm with the handle of @SJF has to be one of the most moronic, juvenile things I have ever seen posted on the internet. And I’ve seen my share.

  44. To All of the Commenters here-

    I wanna wish you guys Happy Holidays as well.

    ( btw, funny- I’m listening to Closer by NIN while reading Emily’s comment..I dedicate that tune to her )

    Anyway…

    I hope everyone here has a GREAT holiday!!

    All of you here ( I was gonna type out each name, then I was like ” fuck” and I edited..), it is a pleasure to come here to this male space and interact with you all.

    I’ve said time and time again, there is great work being done here in this blog – masterful stuff.

    My Holiday wish for all of you is Strength, knowledge, fortitude and contentment gained in mastering self. I am a better man by coming here and interacting with all of you, thank you.

    SJF- kindred spirit. Thank you for providing me with ” lifts ” when I didn’t know I needed them. Your thoughtfulness inspires me.

    Cave- I LOVE YOU MAN!!! Nothing more to say after that semi-homo-erotic outburst. Lol….

    ScribblerG – You sir, are an integral part of the comments. You bring the spark. I appreciate the open and honest way you communicate. I feel you when you type man. Don’t stop, never change.

    Andy – I bust your chops like a kid brother, but trust and believe, I read every word you type and I open my mind a little more each time. Thanks for challenging me to ” understand ”

    Sun – What to say man? You, have made me fucking laugh to tears and then made me lean into my screen with your thoughts. I don’t wish that you get that which you need – I want you to have all that you WANT.

    Anon Reader- Another kindred spirit. Thanks for your thought provoking comments. I feel like I’m hearing from a trusted friend when you speak. You have that way about you.

    Forge- Oh man. When I don’t see your wisdom here I feel the vacuum. Your one of the commenters here that when I don’t see you, I’m all like ” where the hell is Forge on this??”. You are MASSIVELY appreciated my brother.

    KFG- Ma other brother. Thank you for providing your insights here. It is special when us ” over 40 ” dudes can collectively chime in on subjects and expand the viewpoints. I’ll always look for your input man.

    Okay, there’s a lot of guys here… Ima leave it at a huge Thank You to everyone involved here, and let’s keep it going. Tell a friend…if they can handle it.

    But I must shout out to YaReally –

    Hmmmm..where to start?

    Ya, when we first communicated here, I was kinda not feeling the whole PUA vibe. You painstakingly discussed the issue with me like a mechanic explaining to a customer what’s wrong with their car. Lol. I read every word you’ve posted here and I gained a much better understanding. I’m almost a convert!!! But what I really want to thank you for is your effort in helping and explaining things to anyone here that asks.

    You can tell by the many thanks that men give you here that you are putting in phenomenal work. I just wanna say that I admire what you do insofar as expending brain cells to help another man. I commend you.

    Everyone, make the most out your holiday and every day there after. I am pulling for each and every one of you. You all make me better and I thank you for that.

    Mo’ Peace!!

  45. “Don’t compare me to your gf. Those fake religious women annoy me as well.”

    I was talking about my wife, none of my previous side chicks were fake religious women that I know of.

  46. Blaximus

    Wonderful thoughts. Right back at you. I feel the emotion. And I cosign your thoughts about the other commenters.

    I approach red pill awareness and game as if my life depends on it. (It doesn’t, but that mindset helps and I’m an enthusiast.)

    Keep giving us the masculine energy that you have so naturally have exuded here and expressed well. You are a wonderful role model not only for us married young fifties guys, but for any man. I see you, through your comments, as A Man in Full. Whatever that means.

    And your words for YaReally are reinforcement for that idea that Rollo demonstrates, but does not explicate (well maybe he has, there is nothing he hasn’t covered about this shit): Game is necessary and it is fungible. (YaReally’s game helps old married man monogamous guys, and the the wisdom of the old guys with relationship game should be imprinted on the young serial monogamy guys if they think it is appropriate for them–give ’em a few decades and they will see the wisdom.)

    A big thank you for your thoughts. Always.

    Happy holidays and may your family be well.

  47. “Cave- I LOVE YOU MAN!!! Nothing more to say after that semi-homo-erotic outburst. Lol….”

    Back at ya bro! (No homo, lol)

    To Rollo, and all the commenters here that have shared their experiences, thoughts, and opinions to help guide me in my masculine self improvement…thank you and merry Christmas!

  48. @keyser Soze
    December 23rd, 2015 at 9:14 pm

    Emily’s best strategy for herself is actually to lock down her boyfriend in marriage. You are not thinking in her frame and what is best for her with her current skill-set. She’ll do well in that place. He won’t. I’m sure he will make a good mule for her. And it will be the best she can do. (A red pill aware masculine male, or an Alpha male would actually suck for a partner of hers.) I’m not out to advocate for her, but if I were, that is the advice I would give her for her own best interests. I’m sure she will be good at extracting the “goods” to serve her strategy–esp. for Jesus and her children, with him third in line for her affections.

  49. High up in the Rockys they say you dont lose your woman you just lose your turn.I say you cant borrow my chainsaw or my woman,they come home FUBARed!

  50. I understand the the metaphor, which fits perfectly to the narrative of the original essay. There is no way I will ever let anyone borrow my chainsaw. (Actually, any one of my five chainsaws.) It never ends up well and it is best not offered. Women need limits to be set. Men need to set limits.

  51. emily thinks we want to take things baxk to 50-100 yrs ago.
    hmm, personally i think not only should women not vote but they shouldnt drive, own property or be able to engage in legal contracts.
    saudi-style. no holds barred patriarchy. as god intended.

    merry christmas

  52. @Emily – “Hmm, sorry we women are holding you back so much”. Don’t know what you mean by that. I would appreciate it if you would explain what you mean.

    I think you may have misinterpreted the sincerity of my intentions with the thought experiment, but I would like to clear the air on your comment above, first, – hope you’re game.

  53. “….but I would like to clear the air on your comment above, first, – hope you’re game.”

    Good luck with that. Emily is quite simply a sniper. She will not engage. Because she is firing blanks. No firepower.

    Resort to amused mastery with her. For amusement.

  54. “Emily”
    @Anon
    You guys keep trying to compare me to insanity as an insult. I don’t consider it an insult.

    No, dearie, I’m dealing in reality. You have a habit of writing just a wee bit like Bites from time to time, it is an interesting coincidence.

    Now, how about that blue-balled beta boy you used to sex up that you’re currently cockteasing, hmm? No wedding date, no sex, you won’t turn him loose…my, my, my, girlie, you are just plain mean.

  55. Marriage advice, from Emily, lol. That’s just too rich. FYI I was insides quite a catch too, sweetie. One of the reasons that I put my foot down with the wife is cuz other HB9s regularly threw their pussies at me.

    An observation for you. This God of yours gave you ears and a mouth. Why don’t you shut your mouth for a while and actually try and use those ears of yours for a change?

  56. From Anonymous Reader, “Huh. Just had a thought. Reading YaReally’s FR’s and viewing some of the vids I’ve gotten a conscious appreciation for the importance of spiking emotions in a woman’s life, how a constant emotional state (such as men often have) is just grey-out to them. Then some shit tests are as much for a woman to generate her own emotional spikes as to reassure herself that “yeah, he’s got it”. So running a version of the same Game YaReally et al refer to – spike emotions, run her on an emotinal roller coaster, etc. – is one way in an LTR / marriage to keep her from resorting to ever more intense shit-tests, aka “shit testing to destruction”. It’s a deeper version of “play with her, play WITH her” that I didn’t see before.
    I feel both smart and stupid at the same time right now…”

    Fantastic idea… I’ve been countering my wife’s shit test with my own counter shit-test. The looks I get from the confused spinning hamster range from rage to a little girl looking for sympathy. I was thinking that a counter shit test may be beta passive aggressive, but it if it’s in my frame then it can be a family alpha tool to give her an emotional hand-job so to speak. Any references on how to refine this method so I sill look like the stoic oak instead of a nagging female?

  57. “Any references on how to refine this method so I sill look like the stoic oak instead of a nagging female?”

    Smile when you say that, pardner.

  58. @Blax

    Merry Christmas dude. You’ve helped me a ton. I’ll buy you a beer some day for putting up with my insolence. 😇 Same to Rollo and YaReally. Still working on killing that ego. It was a big one.

    @SJF – I want to have your baby. Feel free to lecture me anytime.

  59. “No, dearie, I’m dealing in reality. You have a habit of writing just a wee bit like Bites from time to time, it is an interesting coincidence.”

    Can Rollo see IP addresses on here? Could Emily, in fact, BE Insanity?

  60. “Doesn’t her BPD side resent you keeping frame because the hallmark of BPD is “always be pulling you into her frame”? I’m sure she was pissed at first. And maybe your current situation is because of you keeping rock solid frame?”

    I honestly have no idea. I’m probably out of my mind thinking this could work with her. She has a bunch of good qualities though, so I’m inclined to try and make it work. Buffer? Probably.

    “Besides inner game for yourself, what else would you consider a problem now?”

    My biggest problem by far is clinical depression. Mostly related to inner game stuff. Confidence, anxiety, height insecurity.

    Except momentarily, I’ve never felt anxious or insecure before. Not good feelz for sure.

    The second biggest opportunity for improvement I have is being more social. Rebuilding my gang of male friends, and getting the wife out to witness some social status.

  61. “So running a version of the same Game YaReally et al refer to – spike emotions, run her on an emotinal roller coaster, etc. – is one way in an LTR / marriage to keep her from resorting to ever more intense shit-tests, aka “shit testing to destruction”. It’s a deeper version of “play with her, play WITH her” that I didn’t see before.”

    “Fantastic idea… I’ve been countering my wife’s shit test with my own counter shit-test.”

    Yareally says to “spread good cheer” and i agree with that.

    My LTR game runs basically like this: Strong boundaries combined with cocky and funny or agree and amplify. So if a shit test crosses the line, I shut that shit down harshly. Those are rare anymore.

    But just average everyday shit tests? C&F or A&A.

    Her, “Running late coming home tonight?”

    “Girlfriend held me up” or “World domination takes time” or “Bet that makes you curious doesn’t it” or “Had to lose my tail” or “A husband arrives precisely when he means to” all with a cocky grin and an ass grab/kiss.

    **********

    I never take anything she says seriously. Always teasing.

    Her, “My mom called to ask if we got the christmas package and if I knew what to do with it”

    Me, “did you tell her you had the “package” and you knew EXACTLY what to do with it?” with a naughty grin.

    Her, “ah! I would never say that to my mom!” while giggling.

    **********

    When the wife and I were in marriage counseling (bleh), the counselor asked my wife if I “just expected sex” or if I “preheated the oven” (typical blue pill garbage)

    However, the wife answered with this, “He keeps things fun and not serious…and he can sexualize anything”

    Counselor, “Is that a good thing?”

    Wife, “Yes. He keeps me engaged with him”

    *******

    Of course do what is congruent with your personality. I’m naturally sort of a goof ball that takes very little seriously, especially when it comes to women. (what would I say to a 5 year old?)

  62. @Seraph

    What I needed to do at this point is completely and utterly illustrate to myself what you guys have been telling me, what I have been reading for years. I need to squash that little voice completely by illustrating directly how fucking delusional it is.

    Does that make sense?

    Yup – burn your hand on the stove. In my experience, one of the best ways to train your instincts is to follow them, and then keep in mind what everyone else is saying when you get your results.

    It’s one thing to listen to what people on a forum tell you, and then constantly battle against an inclination to do the opposite. It’s another to do the opposite of what you’re told, have it blow up in your face, and then connect the dots “Ohh, that’s why I shouldn’t do this.” I’ve found that after such episodes, my instincts naturally now fall in line with the advice I was given.

    The thing you gotta watch out for though is keeping yourself motivated. If you’re constantly burning yourself, it can be difficult sometimes to want to continue the learning process.

    @Other people
    Speaking of burning your hand on the stove, I invite the commenters responding to Emily to examine exactly why they feel so compelled to give her attention. I see about two pages worth of comments directly squarely at this troll.

    If she had instead been a male MGTOW troll, would you have invested that much effort?

    It’s one thing to quickly correct flawed arguments and move on. It’s another to continue engaging back and forth and commenting about whether you are being ignored.

    Why do you care if she ignores you?

  63. @Pellaeon

    She is not actually a troll. She is our literary-like foil for Red Pill Awareness and Game.

    ( a foil is a character that shows qualities that are in contrast with the qualities of another character with the objective to highlight the traits of the other character. The term foil, though generally being applied for a contrasting character, may also be used for any comparison that is drawn to portray a difference between two things.)

    “Why do you care if she ignores you?”

    I personally don’t. I’m indifferent to her attention.

    However, I do find it an amusing sport-game to draw her out. Because she illustrates everything that the Red Pill stands to illuminate about the nature of modern day women. The more she is drawn out and types her comments, the more we can just see.

  64. She is our literary-like foil for Red Pill Awareness and Game.

    Exactly. in her last sermon from the mounted, it was beautiful, classic, FI BS for men, lines like:

    One way is to find love, find someone who loves you and therefore there won’t be an element of manipulation and control in your relationship

    If on the other hand, you respect yourself and commit to one woman

  65. @Rollo

    Insanity got banned for spamming the same c&p’d comments in every thread.

    You know to be fair I’ve seen you do that in response to like a million comments here, jefe. 😉

  66. Gentlemen,

    Merry Christmas to all!

    You are all my new tribe. Can’t think of a better gift than what I get here daily.

    Rock on!

  67. For those who want a primitive explanation, here is how I see it.

    The reason why we have nice things are the opposing forces of hypergamy and violence. Hypergamy is a fact, we are not a naturally pair-bonding species. Violence is all that men have done to counter hypergamy. In violence I am including not only actual physical violence but all rules, customs, laws, social expectations, that have been put in place to counter the hypergamic force.

    A lot of the manosphere, including here, tends toward an “all hail the alpha” attitude. In true primitive societies alphas, or the males with preferred mating dances, likely had targets on their backs. Assuming the rule that women only prefer the top 20% of men for sexual selection, even in that 20% probably a half to three quarters (10-15% of all men) find their sexual desirability under challenge frequently, and consequently they’re at the mercy of hypergamy as much as the bottom 80%. Only the very apex alphas probably have few if any worries.

    But with violence, of course even the apex alphas have worries – from other men. Unlike a lot of other species, humans have a number of ways to kill each other without being killed themselves. Covert methods, weapons, and gang attacks all work. So if the other dude has a better alpha mating dance, just off him when his back is turned. Now who ya gonna choose, ladies?

    Extreme violence is inefficient, so men came up with better ways to tame hypergamy. But violence was the base of all of them. We’ll get together as a nation, have strict rules about what you can do with each other’s wives, but if it’s a lower caste person, or an enemy country, hey, rape away.

    Anyway, over time we’ve evolved to feel that the violence and restraint on hypergamy is inherently wrong. It’s not just the tilt towards nonviolence, but the forgetting of the existence of hypergamy that allowed equalism to grow. So hypergamy is no longer countered by anything. All hail the alpha. For now.

  68. ” In true primitive societies alphas, or the males with preferred mating dances, likely had targets on their backs.”

    The life span of the first kings tended to be rather short and even today a goodly number don’t die of natural causes.

    ” . . . over time we’ve evolved to feel that the violence and restraint on hypergamy is inherently wrong.”

    Nonsense. We’ve been quite deliberately programmed for it.

  69. Men instinctively feel rage upon seeing a man, cocksure and arrogant, surrounded by giggling women. Unless you think you are that guy too, then he’s just a peer.

    It’s just that now men don’t dare do anything but mutter ‘douchebag’ through gritted teeth. Armed government goons prepared to put you behind bars for clocking a dude tend to have that effect.

    It’s a great time for alphas and the hypergamy that loves them.

    (I will say, though, it’s tough not to feel smug when some dude you’ve never met feels the need to AMOG you from across the coffeeshop to his girlfriend, miming how he’d punch you in the face. Just smirk as the girl starts giggling and can’t stop tossing glances at you after he tries that. Betas dig their own graves sometimes.)

  70. @the asd shamer
    you’re a hopeless shitbag. we should understand you yet you hit below.the.belt, lash out, judge other guys.and are a.huge fucking whiner.
    bitch

    @forge, sribb, blax n all the others here doing good stuff n contributing (suwukong and.others i cant remember how to spell): merry christmas n happy new.year
    @rollo: merry christmas n a happy new year. thanks for this blog.

    the guys who offered to email with me- you’ll here from me shortly. thanks a.lot. appreciated 🙂

  71. “Is life better since the advancement of women’s rights?”
    It is for the women.
    The arguments against this are amusing. I wonder, was life better for black people before civil rights or after? Hmm

    Gladly, Rollo dear.
    But first, note that most of those are privileges, not rights. And most of those have logical reasons behind them. As in..

    Women have the right to choose parenthood. Well, if the man had to carry the baby for 9 months and deliver it, he would get the right to choose parenthood. But he doesn’t have to carry the baby, therefore he doesn’t have the ‘right’ to choose. He has the right to use a condom though.

    Women have the right to not be assumed sexual predators. Well, men account for anywhere between 75% and 98% of all rapists, depending on the study. So that ‘right’ just stems from that fact, really.
    Ditto for domestic violence.

    Here’s my list:

    When applying for a job/promotion, the odds are skewed in the males favor. The more prestigious the job, the more this is true.

    At work, men have the ‘right’ to not deal with nearly as much sexual harassment.

    Men have the ‘right’ to have both a career and children, and not be called selfish and uncaring.

    Men have the ‘right’ to walk in dangerous areas/late at night without having to fear rape. As a man, you have a faaar lower chance of being raped, as long as you can stay out of prison. Meanwhile, women have a far higher chance of being raped, the younger you are, the more this is true. The odds of a teenage girl being raped are despicably high.

    As a man, you have the ‘right’ to not have to worry that old men/women may try to take advantage of you, even though you are a 14 year old girl. The internet is absolutely full of men whining about why they cant fuck 14 year olds, posting pictures of underage girls. Many on the manosphere and other forums actively encourage going for underage girls cause thats when we ‘have our prime.’

    Men have the ‘right’ to not have to deal with being objectified and called a slut for how you dress.

    Men have the ‘right’ to express themselves sexually without being harassed by men and women.

    Men have the ‘right’ to not have to deal with verbal harassment every time they are walking in an even slightly crowded urban area.

    Men have the ‘right’ to be able to do certain things incorrectly (driving, work, using electronics, finance etc.) without having to fear other people attributing it to my whole sex.

    Men have the ‘right’ to be expressive without being called a bitch.

    Men have the ‘right’ to be far less worried about their appearance than a female. if a man is 10 pounds overweight, there will be little to no consequences in terms of dating or career.

    And that’s just some of the problems we face in the West. I’m not even going to get into Africa/the Islamic World/Far east

  72. Nice, masculine, equalist ham-fisted comment that drifts into cliche and keeps it from being of any use at all, Em.

    You missed what KFG wrote on December 23rd, 2015 at 9:53 AM. Or you didn’t comprehend the meaning.

    The day you get your laundry list of equalist goodies is the day that inter-sexual Masculine-Feminine Polarity has no gradient of flow and you and your partner’s sexual desire dies in a boring death spiral. (…….Oh, wait. that was part of the plan. Neuter him for Jesus. And Feminist ideals–you know the ones you willingly bite down and chew on in college. I almost forgot. Never mind. Carry on…. your stagnant “discussion” comments here.)

  73. @ Caveclown thanks for the elaboration on emotional spiking and frame control. doing this with my SO, and it really does work. It has also created a non-threatening/accusatory communication channel between us, which has actually been a strong bonding experience.

    Emotional Spiking apparently does work as demonstrated by select female forum contributors…

  74. lol SJF, you keep bringing up that post as if KFG offered some incredibly sagely advice there.
    But really it’s basically the same nonsense I’ve heard a hundred times – ‘women are different than men therefore sexism is justified.’

  75. I bring it up since you presume you “own the message” and the premise. KFG’s comment is antithetical to your premise (which starts with equalism).

    Here I’ll bring it up a third time:

    http://therationalmale.com/2015/12/16/open-relationships/comment-page-6/#comment-132782

    Furthermore, see this comment and read the link therein for a better understanding.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/15/double-standards/#comment-6716

    And women are different than men. And sometimes they just need to be told “NO!”

  76. “At work, men have the ‘right’ to not deal with nearly as much sexual harassment.”

    Pffffft.

    First of all, really? I have never seen a guy say anything remotely sexual about a girl in a work setting. The consequences for doing so aren’t worth it at all… I’ve had to deal with some awkward situations at work because girls come on to me and I didn’t shoot them down smooth enough… You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    Secondly, you only take offense to it because you’ve been taught to feel victimized. When I was younger I would get sexually harassed all fucking day by ladies at work. Usually old ladies. Actually, it still happens. Women can get away with sexual flirting at work because as men we aren’t automatically assuming victimization. Yeah it’s minorly creepy sometimes, but it’s not like it ruins my day or I go home and cry about it…

  77. “Sexism is judging people by their sex when sex doesn’t matter.” -Caroline Bird, using the word “sexism” for the first time in print; 1968

    I accept this definition. Mating strategies are tautologically about sex, therefore not sexist. Dimorphism is a fact, not a prejudice. Only men can create babies, but they cannot gestate them. Only women can gestate babies, but they cannot create them. Differing sexual strategies are innate in the differing reproductive roles.

    I recently, as a point of personal curiosity, ran myself through the Army Basic Training PFT. Although 60ish years old and not having done any specific training for it, I squeaked inside the standard for 17-21 year olds; a standard that no woman is ever called upon to meet.

    Since sex doesn’t matter to the test protocol, that is sexism.

  78. Aww poor you Andy. First of all, I don’t believe that. Second, statistics prove that females encounter far more sexual harassment. Third, men generally seek sex, women guard it. Therefore, violating a woman’s space and sexually harassing her is worse than violating a man’s space. Though, both are bad if the man/woman clearly indicates that he/she is uncomfortable. But the man is rarely uncomfortable when a young woman is ‘harassing’ him. But yeah, nice attempt at victimization.

    SJF, go marry KFG then.

  79. ” . . . violating a woman’s space and sexually harassing her is worse than violating a man’s space [and sexual harassing him].”
    .
    An excellent example of a true egalitarian mindset.
    .
    Where are you going to enter the novitiate?

  80. “Therefore, violating a woman’s space and sexually harassing her is worse than violating a man’s space.”

    Madonna Whore complex
    Victim complex.
    Typically irrational female entitled to good FEELS, bitter, feminist Jesus freak.

    You’re a real catch Emily.

  81. “Third, men generally seek sex, women guard it. Therefore, violating a woman’s space and sexually harassing her is worse than violating a man’s space.”

    I don’t know quite how to break this to you, but you can’t support your claim by supporting my contrary claim.

  82. “I don’t know quite how to break this to you, but you can’t support your claim by supporting my contrary claim.”

    90% chance she’s taking a women’s studies class this semester. Probably writing a paper on “The Manosphere”

  83. ” “Is life better since the advancement of women’s rights?”
    It is for the women.
    The arguments against this are amusing. I wonder, was life better for black people before civil rights or after? Hmm”

    Lol.

    I wont even dignify this with an explanation.

  84. Rollo: sobering statistics. For those who follow the Latin Rite, today is the remembrance of the Slaughter of the Holy Innocents. Males. All of them. Disposable then, disposable now.

  85. “…. because it’s not in her gender-interest to do so, is that women’s sexual strategy (AF/BB Hypergamy) is sexism”.

    I would agree that unbridled hypergamy is lacking in honor and nobility, reeks of narcissism, and is a big AF cum-stain on the female character (cue Monica’s blue dress..) but it is the matriarchal fem-centric laws backed by feminazis, white knights, and societal tropes/meme supporting hypergamy that are sexists.

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