During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.
I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.
She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity – an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.
I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.
Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:
Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.
The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.
Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.
Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.
What About Those Assholes?
Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.
Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.
It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?
In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.
Force Fitting Sexual Strategies
What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…
The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.
In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.
Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:
In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.
In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).
Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.
The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.
And from Schedules of Mating:
For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.
‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.
All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.
The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.
In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.
Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?
When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.
Beta “Manhood”
From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:
I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.
Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.
Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.
TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:
A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.
So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.
I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?
Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.
a married couple i know tried to have an open relationship because he thought he would get threesomes, instead the wife was banging guys from words with friends. i know a poly couple, he is a fitness guy with 6-pack abs who has higher smv and that’s the only reason he isn’t home alone while she’s out banging dudes.
NewlyAloof: You are going to make this painful, aren’t you. Read my posts, read the link to the post I gave you (To MensDivorce.com, with “The List”, which men have lived by for 15 years–that version is just the one from 2005). RADIO SILENCE. STFU. Do NOT try to win anyone over. Beta down, Alpha up, behind the scenes. The bottom line is, you still want to be married to this woman and hey, that’s your call. But she is going to divorce you eventually, and take all your shit if you are not prepared. Sharing sob stories, even if… Read more »
Consider the how the concept of an open relationship serves a woman in light of the ovulatory shift behaviors that are prompted by the cyclic nature of women’s sexuality:
http://www.livescience.com/8779-fertile-women-manly-men.html
http://www.livescience.com/1409-fertile-women-prefer-manly-men.html
Read through these articles (they’re short) and then go back and read the cartoon here again. You’ll begin to understand the reason that women promoting open relationships and open Hypergamy serve the interests of women far more than those of men.
I should also add that the difference between women’s embrace of ‘poly’ relationships (socially positive) is also indicative of women’s opportunistic concept of love versus men’s idealistic concept of love.
NewlyAloof, Depending on what state you live in be prepared to lose 50% of your assests. Others are right, get cash set aside, as much as you can without drawing suspicion. I had a buddy who offered to stash things for me, always had my back. DO NOT give her any indication you want a divorce or are even thinking about until you have planned it out and talked to a good lawyer. Shop around, ask hard questions. Make sure they damn well have good experience writing divorce decrees. Stay good and right with your kids! Love them up! Affairs… Read more »
@Jeremy & Redlight Thanks for the quick responses! I’d like to try to paraphrase back your advice to make sure I’m understanding you both properly. To me, it sounds like both of you are basically offering the same advice, but worded differently: that I’m jumping the gun and worrying about something that’s not really going to come up (as an actually viable opportunity anyway) until I’ve gotten more of the fundamentals handled. If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that my focus right now should be on solidifying my ability to bring women into my life, and I can consider… Read more »
https://twitter.com/wcsoto/status/654772996565921793
@Pellaeon Is that a correct summation of what you guys are telling me? Every relationship I ever tried to push forward immediately turned me into a beta. Every single one. Choosing a life partner is supposed to be a woman’s decision anyway, might as well let her come to that decision. As such, the SMP somewhat perversely only works right for both parties if the guys have abundance and the women are trying to choose. I guess that only sounds perverse because blue-pill land convinces the men that it’s their job to push and commit and it’s the women’s job… Read more »
What’s with the hate Rollo? I asked a legitimate question and you lost your frame. I have learned a lot here, most things I agree with some I do not. I would think you would respond more like a Rational Male to Rational Male.
wk.
@bob
Yeah, in reference to that bitch getting her husband locked up.
@zodak
…the wife was banging guys from words with friends. i know a poly couple, he is a fitness guy … that’s the only reason he isn’t home alone while she’s out banging dudes…
lol, I’m just waiting for the fire and brimstone. I hope to get a selfie with Lot and his wife as they’re fleeing the U.S., before she turns to salt, obviously…
Holy crap that tweet Rollo. 3 dudes to satisfy one chick, eh?
If I were still a Christian, I’d say Exodus 20:2-6
Literal worship of women.
@pellaeon
Is that a correct summation of what you guys are telling me?
that is essentially correct. in particular watch out for oneits
best wishes
@waco
you missed the point. did you click on the link that Rollo provided? That was not Rollo directly talking to you, that was a quote from CH
@dutch Yeah dude. Real life story no b.s. The cops in canada can be extremely corrupt, especially in big cities like montreal and toronto. I knew a guy who had to flogg weed to this total a$$hole cause if he didn’t the cops would tear him a new one. iow the ahole bought weed for cops and god forbid you didnt give this prick good shit at a good price. Judges taking suitcases full of cash for reduced.sentences. blah, blah. ‘Debbie’ stood out amongst all the shit I’ve seen due to her utter ruthlessness. People get divorced everyday. She treated… Read more »
In some ways, this reminds me of the SR-71 Blackbird .
Stay with me guys. See , much like the SR-71s testing and development, most women practice polyamorous behavior under Black Project cover.
Mr Alpha ? He never happened.
Ex bf ? He’s in the past.
That Girls Night Out to Vegas with the orgy and the male strippers doesn’t count either, because it never happened.
Just like the SR71 “never happened ” until we declassified it.
All this “Open Relationship” business does is socially declassify what women have practiced since time immemorial.
” . . . they are HIGHLY SENSITIVE to guys trying to side-shame another chick, or guys trying to get sympathy, and they have a visceral reaction”:
Holy fuck; this guy is a . . . woman. Ewwwwwwwwww!
” . . . they will probably IMMEDIATELY REPORT what you’ve said . . .”
Because they actually are women.
A woman who is with an alpha would never EVER imagining sharing him. The alpha, trigger tingles, the beta, triggers crazy ideas in her head. Only alpha men will have no problem with open relationship (but his woman would cut his cock off) , meanwhile, the beta, would agree for two reasons , 1, he knows, he’s got no other options. 2, she will leave him if he objected , so he better pretend, he has an ” open minded “. A she Donkey, who is married to a horse, will never asks to have an open relationship (the chances… Read more »
this is amusing, I was going to write something about poly relationships, so I signed on to fetlife, which I haven’t done for a while, and there was a message to me. She is: Married In An Open Relationship unpartnered (in a Dom/sub sense) Heteroflexible so there you go, open relationships do work, aside from the spouse A guy friend of mine has been poly for many years. Never married. Never LTR. Has lived with women before but roommates with benefits. He’s BI. He’s not an alpha, but he does things as he wants to. He is a feminist who… Read more »
I just had a sickening thought… What if Hypergamy IS the default human condition for females AND a woman is behaviorally predisposed to be AF / BB when pregnant??? In other words a woman becomes pregnant with Alpha seed. Then she is immediately behaviorally predisposed to look for the better deal provisioner or another alpha. So pregnancy (acquiring male genetic seed) is only half the evolutionary battle with women. They are biologically DRIVEN to seek the next big ride for their offspring to thrive. In a pure biological game theory way this makes total sense. If a pregnant woman sends… Read more »
Catching up on some of the earlier comments in the thread: @Mazrim I can’t find a reason why a man would or should accept a open relationship when we/he can just spin plates & improve game. It just lines a man up for more providorship. Open relationships that is. Am I just misunderstanding what it means to “spin plates?” When I hear that, I think of a situation where you basically just see these chicks to fuck. You maybe do a few initial dates, but then just call them over for sex and make sure not to introduce them to… Read more »
I’m surprised I was actually able to find this, usually I have difficulty hunting down an article I read before. From http://www.girlschase.com/content/3-big-benefits-polyamory A man in a non-monogamous relationship, or a practitioner of solo polyamory, always has at least one other option. If you’re upfront about it, or behave in a way which successfully implies it, your woman/women will never for a moment doubt that you have other options. Her competition anxiety will always remain high, which means she’ll be strongly attracted to you and for a very long time (unless you completely submit to her / relinquish all the relationship… Read more »
” I like the idea of having my own girl along while hanging out with my buddies and their girls . . .”
This is the social construct, a million miles away from natural behaviour. It didn’t exist until the global nihilism of post WWI.
“All this “Open Relationship” business does is socially declassify what women have practiced since time immemorial.”
Pretty much what I was thinking.
The main difference in a woman openly stating that she wants an open relationship is that she is prepared to be honest about her intentions.
” . . . she is prepared to be honest about her intentions.”
Because she feels she has him totally whipped, and wishes to whip him harder. And, contrary to the idea that women will never be poly with an alpha, she will likely describe to her side alpha how whipped her pet houseboy is and how often (i.e. how seldom) she has sex with him.
An alpha Buddha may join in and play pimp game, against the beta, pushing the woman to suck even harder at the beta’s resources, so that she can spend it on him.
Addendum: I have also been privy to women discussing how, rather than fighting over an alpha, they will share him to avoid conflict with each other.
Ang Aamer: I posted before, I agree that hypergamy is natural state. If humans were highly monogamous, pair bonding creatures, then we’d probably be living in grass huts. No reason for a man to improve himself. So women are hypergamous. Men start fighting over them, then figure out the fighting is pointless and distracting from other missions of the society. So they make rules to make mate procurement more peaceful. Men make all rules, all customs, including marriage. Ten commandments, Hammurabi’s code, what have you, all written by men. Women have no incentive to write rules, they are going to… Read more »
@Striver, before you marry yourself to that idea, read what Roissy has to say about the overemphasis on “thirst”:
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/the-thirst-a-closer-analysis/
I was in an “open” relationship for most of a year. It was at the tail-end of my only LTR, which lasted over 6 years… with only about six months of it having regular sex. It started with her having feelings for a male friend. I let her continue hanging out with the friend, but set boundaries. Those stretched, over time, and I think her reactions to those stretching were genuine, and that she’d respected my boundaries… but she was pushing to get me to say OK to my own cuckoldry. Eventually, I managed to rationalize it to myself. For… Read more »
“Addendum: I have also been privy to women discussing how, rather than fighting over an alpha, they will share him to avoid conflict with each other.” This sounds to me like a few women talking about a hypothetical situation. If it existed in reality, I would expect that it would be more a case of a temporary keeping of the peace while each one regroups and works out a way of undermining the other by whichever means possible. The greater the potential gains of being the sole female “beneficiary” the more vicious and underhanded the fighting. The Alpha would be… Read more »
“This sounds to me like a few women talking about a hypothetical situation.”
I knew the guy as well. You are hearing what you want to believe.
“If it existed in reality, I would expect that it would be more a case of a temporary keeping of the peace while each one regroups . . .”
One of them ended up living with me for several years after I AMOGed the shit out of the dude. Mistake on my part.
Rollo,
I was pursuing the more reproductive angle. I agree that for sexual attention that doesn’t lead to reproduction, the equation is different.
The Last Psychiatrist made an interesting observation that narcissism in women is expressed through hyper sexuality (as trying to measure up to an ideal) while in men it is expressed as a drop in libido (can’t measure up). The narcissistic cuck might enjoy the process (open relationships) as it externalises his own inferiority and absolves him of his need to face the burden of performance. His supply comes from being a comfort boy. Other men fucking his wife becomes hot. Of course this necessitates the need to justify and promote the behaviour to allay his own innate inabilities and inferiority.… Read more »
“The narcissistic cuck might enjoy the process (open relationships) as it externalises his own inferiority and absolves him of his need to face the burden of performance. His supply comes from being a comfort boy.
Other men fucking his wife becomes hot.”
I’ve always wondered about this. Say a guy has a really nice car. Does he get a thrill handing the keys over to other people to use?
The only thing I can think of is, perhaps, the case of a guy who drives a ghetto sled.
Liz the more apt example would be if a man has a sweet ride but didn’t know how to drive, he’d take pleasure in other people driving the car and swooning over it. Of course his inability to drive would be construed to be his choice rather than his own fear of failure.
@Johnycomelately:
His name was Enzo Ferrari.
@Ang Aamer: I thought that had already basically been proven.
@kfg
December 17th, 2015 at 9:02 pm
” . . . they are HIGHLY SENSITIVE to guys trying to side-shame another chick, or guys trying to get sympathy, and they have a visceral reaction”:
‘Holy fuck; this guy is a . . . woman. Ewwwwwwwwww!’
No, knowing what triggers women’s instincts is something any ‘actual’ man should know. Not bitching about advice to a younger cat looking for help.
Btw, what kind of guy goes around saying “ewwwww”? LOL. Did you flick your hand up when you said that? You sound…bitchy.
” . . . bitching about advice to a younger cat looking for help.”
If you read my comment again, you might find that it parses differently than you first thought.
” . . . what kind of guy goes around saying “ewwwww”? ”
The kind writing dialogue for a character lacking reason and accountability, i.e. a woman.
“What are your thoughts? Should I be open to a monogamous relationship (if the opportunity presents itself, it hasn’t really yet) just to get my feet wet?”
@Palleaon
I would say just fuck buddies for a while. Monogamy will probably teach you something about yourself, but you won’t learn the lesson unless you’ve spun plates for quite a few years first.
Enrique, I did read and bookmark your posts. Thanks. Don’t take my hypothetical actions as desperation play on my part because they are not. I’m just rationally thinking about possible actions I can take in uncharted waters for me. You proved that my idea had serious flaws so I will not be trying them. That’s what great about this place. People can see what a man in the middle of a shit storm can’t. And you made me think hard about divorce and how shit can be turned on it’s head in a divorce proceeding. Made me realize that my… Read more »
“Women are a resource to be exploited. Like food, air, water, etc.” Ugh. I’m starting to think Liz and Lee Lee and all the RPW get off on reading stuff like this. Rollo, I don’t think I can post links. Aaanyway. I think human society has progressively evolved to be monogamous, simply because it produces a more stable society. ‘Sides, if promiscuity was natural, it would not be so risky (STDs, pregnancy w/o knowing who the father is), and you wouldn’t feel affection towards one person or jealousy towards sharing. On the other hand, humans do, like most mammals, experience… Read more »
I can show you genomic evidence of homosapiens regularly interbreeding with Neanderthals that would disprove your assertions, but even Abrahamic polygynous marriage traditions and acceptable sex practices will do.
“Ugh. I’m starting to think Liz and Lee Lee and all the RPW get off on reading stuff like this.”
lol. It turns you on too you know… You’re not going to do yourself any favors by burying your natural instincts in the name of religion. It’ll come out anyway except probably in an inconvenient way.
“I think human society has progressively evolved to be monogamous, simply because it produces a more stable society.”
The facade of monogamy has created a stable society. Society has never been truly monogamous.
Said the 20 yo girl who’s proactively cuckolded her monogamous Beta BF with religion.
“Said the 20 yo girl who’s proactively cuckolded her monogamous Beta BF with religion.”
Emily rubbing one out: “Oh Jesus. Take me! Take me!”
She receives communion alright.
Yes Rollo, but polygamy has died out since then. Jesus Himself only talked about monogamous marriages, nothing else.
Every successful society has been mainly monogamous. A large part of the decline of the West IMO is that much of the population no longer practice monogamous marriages. Instead, most people chase hedonism and sexual desire. So less and less children are born in traditional family units.
And unfortunately, both feminism and the red pill teach their followers to be wary of monogamy.
“Ugh. I’m starting to think Liz and Lee Lee and all the RPW get off on reading stuff like this.”
No. But whenever someone casts aspersions on me, claiming I hold a view or said something I didn’t say it kind of makes me feel like I’m in highschool again. Just in time for Christmas, too.
“‘…if promiscuity was natural, it would not be so risky (…pregnancy w/o knowing who the father is)”
What? Cuckolding is a risk?
Yeah, for the MAN.
It’s only a risk for her if she risks losing her BB, which with the government, welfare, child support, and men that are willing to become involved with single moms, is NOT LIKELY.
The worst thing that can happen to a man is getting stuck raising some bastard.
“But I think most humans are mature enough to prioritize the incentives of monogamy than to trade it for the short term sexual excitement of a new partner.” Followed by: “A large part of the decline of the West IMO is that much of the population no longer practice monogamous marriages. Instead, most people chase hedonism and sexual desire.” ???? Let me fix this for you: ……both feminism and the red pill teach their followers to be wary of monogamy modern marriage. Rollo: “Again, this is usually the result of a guy without the patience to really read what I’ve… Read more »
“Every successful society has been mainly monogamous. A large part of the decline of the West IMO is that much of the population no longer practice monogamous marriages. Instead, most people chase hedonism and sexual desire. So less and less children are born in traditional family units.” Translation: Guys, I’m really sexually frustrated here. Like, OMG. I need cock bad. What is wrong with my boyfriend?!? Doesn’t he think I’m attractive? I bet that guy @Striver would be a REAL man and give me what I need. Okay, Focus! Focus! Jesus knows my thoughts! I’m such a slut! Why am… Read more »
Newlyaloof…….I have been there…….no sex, separate bedrooms, disgusted wife…..all of it. Just being in the same house with her created tension for her, and increased her antipathy. The advice here is good. Bleed what money you can, and get as much as you can…..understand that historical child caring split can be used as precedence when you do the custody split (if she does most of the child rearing, she will have a strong case for maintaining majority custody), make sure she doesn’t feel physically threatened by you especially when the situation is so tense, keep your business away from her… Read more »
@Doubter, thanks for that detailed response. I’m doing a lot of the points you mentioned, so I feel good about that. In fact, got a big bonus recently and yet can’t even share the enthusiasm with anybody. More blood for the vampires and all. Again, I hope Rollo can address this remaining, lingering question: How does a man prepare for a divorce and not have affairs that could be used against him in court, but at the same time instill dread that a faltering wife needs? It’s a fine line, so hammering out the fine points would be great to… Read more »
The “poly” crap is just the newest bullshit excuse for women that want to openly fuck around on their partner. Rather than admit the truth; that they aren’t ready for a monogamous, committed relationship and just want to slut around, they instead try to assert that it is an immutable and hardwired “sexual identity” that is equal to hetero or homosexuality, and thus are to be free of negative criticism or judgment by others.
@aloof
affairs that could be used against him in court
isn’t this no longer possible?
likewise you can’t use Chads in court either
@newly, “Again, I hope Rollo can address this remaining, lingering question: How does a man prepare for a divorce and not have affairs that could be used against him in court, but at the same time instill dread that a faltering wife needs? It’s a fine line, so hammering out the fine points would be great to see.” You should keep that EXACT goal in the forefront of your mind in the way you do everything related to her. Like go through your day calibrating everything to present that image. When you’re getting dressed think “Given the fact that I’ll… Read more »
“@aloof affairs that could be used against him in court isn’t this no longer possible? likewise you can’t use Chads in court either” One of my closest friends is a top divorce attorney. DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. IT WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. “He shouldn’t have the kids because he has all these whores running around all the time and that is not something a child should be seeing. He separates from loving wife, leaves me ALONE, and immediately starts having sex with other women! While he’s still married! How could he, the monster!” Can she prove you have… Read more »
@Cave Sorry if this is an annoying question, but like, have you ever talked to your buddy about the mindset of those family court judges (specifically the male ones)? I always wonder about their psychology like is it “I’m the knight in shining armor who will rescue these princesses from their evil asshole emotionally abusive bastard husbands” or “Fuck I hate the way these cunts fuck over these dudes but the law says what it says and I could get in trouble with the bar or the voters or whatever if I don’t interpret it in a feminist friendly way”?… Read more »
@Dutch Cave, good points.
What about this. I only use FaceFuckBook to keep tabs on the wife, but thinking about dread, I just friended a few hotties that had friend requested me many moons ago but I had ignored. I accepted an old dude friend’s request as a hedge so it looks better. SEE! I am thinking like a fucking lawyer already.
The affairs business matters more for men in divorce than it does for women. I have not seen a woman stripped of custody because she was having an affair, as long as she keeps the paramour away from the kids while the divorce is pending (I have heard of cases in my state where the court adjusts custody if she crosses that line, but it doesn’t always happen — depends on judge, circumstances, age of kids etc.). For the man, it’s a broader thing, such that an affair that is reasonably well proved out (say, using PI-generated evidence, which a… Read more »
Yes Rollo, but polygamy has died out since then. Jesus Himself only talked about monogamous marriages, nothing else. Incorrect again… 29But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30″For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. – Matthew 29-30 Even Jesus agrees, there is no ONE, and there are no “soul mates“. See? I’m really just doing the Lord’s work here. Every successful society has been mainly monogamous. Misattribution of cause and effect. The fact that successful societies are… Read more »
@newlyaloof
I wouldn’t obsess about dread too much. You might want to get her to the point where she LIKES you again first.
Dutch, I live in one of the most conservative states in the country, so keep that in mind. It operates like this here: 1. The welfare of any under age 13 children is priority #1 2. Custody is assumed at 50% by law unless good reason to alter is given (see rule #1) 3. Finances are assumed at 50% unless good reason to alter is given (see rule #1) 4. Women and men both are expected to bring in a full time income 5. Alimony is only awarded in extreme cases (high income disparity, disabled wife, etc) Those are the… Read more »
Women are more likely than men to end a relationship. So of course polyamory benefits women: they get to end a relationship without having to end it. Classic cake-and-eating it situation.
It’s amazing how people confuse red pill with the purple one…..
Because 90% of red pill males still hold onto blue pill ideologies just with a twisted bitterness towards women.
@Cave
“5. Alimony is only awarded in extreme cases (high income disparity, disabled wife, etc)”
So just because a chick has been a housewife for the whole marriage, that doesn’t mean she will get alimony?
@newlyaloof, there’s really not much I can tell you since from what you’ve described your soon-to-be Ex is too far gone. Before he sold out completely, even Athol Kay would have a husband evaluate his situation before considering whether his faltering wife was in fact worth making the effort for. There’s simply a point when a woman’s perception of you reaches a rubicon and it’s more effort than it will ever be worth to attempt to change it for her. Ask yourself this, what is the best case scenario you can imagine between you and your wife? Now ask yourself… Read more »
“@Cave
“5. Alimony is only awarded in extreme cases (high income disparity, disabled wife, etc)”
So just because a chick has been a housewife for the whole marriage, that doesn’t mean she will get alimony?”
In my state? No, she would not get it automatically. She is expected to work. Alimony is very unusual in my state.
Now in a situation like mine? Where I make in a month what she makes in a year? Yeah, alimony would be likely.
@newly,
Listen to Rollo man, seriously.
Aloof, Rollo just made the argument, and it’s true. Every man, even prospective Red Pillers have a little White Knight inside that WANTS to believe the relationship dynamic can change. It can–for the worse.
You are only allowing her to reload by trying to make it work. It’s a relationship with yourself at this point. You need to be planning asap.
If you’re going to cut,
commit to it and do it.
Don’t pull the bandaid of slowly and painfully,
whip it off in one briefly painful stroke,
then move.
Walk away on your feet the first time;
don’t let her walk on you
while you’re on your knees after the fourth try.
You may not have her love,
but you will have her respect.
~Rollo Tomassi
The ironic part of cuckholdery and hypergamy is how often it backfires, or once a normally alpha-seeming male bends slightly to his woman’s ways for posterity, then gets compartmentalized as “beta provider” and the deep sexual connection looses it’s luster. I allowed myself to fall into a situation as I described above by the mother of my only child who I was engaged to, and never got as far as the marriage, when we split partly due to her “feeling attractively inadequate” after blowing up and keeping on pregnancy weight. In short, she cheated because I wasn’t telling her 24/7… Read more »
In the entire rest of our relationship, she was never once “not really feeling it right now,” ever again. Guys, those headaches and “not in the mood’s” are power plays. It takes a few minutes of foreplay for a woman to be aroused enough to want sex, if she isn’t already. When she plays that card, she’s testing your mettle. So play your bigger, shinier card: if you won’t do it, miss, someone else will. Game over.
Wow, Palaeon……that’s so true. Never thought about it like a power play. That’s a great, great comment.
“You are only allowing her to reload by trying to make it work. It’s a relationship with yourself at this point. You need to be planning asap”
Truth.
It’s only a relationship when both are committed, engaged, and putting effort into it. And, whomever is less committed and least engaged has the power.
Newlyaloof…..couple of points. Rollo is right. Your shit marriage is likely doomed. When the woman cannot stand even the sound of your voice, it’s a long, long, long way back. And unlikely. But, I know in my case, I couldn’t rightly break up the family until I had exhausted every single opportunity to turn things around. And it didn’t work, so I left knowing I had given it my utmost. Leaving a marriage is counseled early and often in the manosphere, but it’s really, really hard to do when you’re in the middle of it. You can stay, but make… Read more »
@Rollo. thanks man. What I don’t get is, she used to be hot for me but after the first kid, she changed. Didn’t help that she had two c-sections and a hernia and sex has be uncomfortable for her ever since. Even when she was still hot for me she complained about that. Combine that with the fact that she’s 45, has gravity effecting her tits and gutt (still attractive though), no finances, no savings, and two kids, you’d think she would have sense, but we all know bitches be crazy. Right now I have an ex that coming into… Read more »
Rough times, @newlyaloof. Tons of good stuff about the logistics of the circumstance here. I don’t know much about divorce law and so on so I won’t comment on that. And I personally think that Rollo’s assessment is very likely correct – saving this circumstance would be very difficult and even if successful would likely prove to be a pyrrhic victory. That said, I still want to rip ya a new one wrt your game ‘n’ frame. Andy dropped this: blockquote>”I wouldn’t obsess about dread too much. You might want to get her to the point where she LIKES you… Read more »
Heh, well I jacked the formatting of that one pretty royally. Don’t know how block quotes work I guess. Looks like it’s still understandable though.
Need tips on mundane social interaction. Had an office Christmas party today. I always feel awkward at these sorts of things, but like I can START them out having a good time, being social and making people laugh. I’m always good at delivering witty remarks that are well calibrated and make people laugh, but I don’t know how to transition past that into more serious, less silly conversation. It’s like this Me: (funny witty remark that makes EVERYONE laugh heartily) Someone in the group: boring stuff Me: (another funny line, everyone laughs) Someone else: more boring stuff Me: (not wanting… Read more »
@Forge, thanks man. Yeah, the last two weeks, I’ve been solid as an oak in my calmness and frame. So much so, I realized what you said about the debit card and calmly told her, “Look, have the debit card back, but just communicate with me so nothing surprises me.” She agreed and has been calling me to ask about purchases, so she’s showing reciprocation. But the attraction thing is so fucking odd with her. This morning, just to humor myself, just to guage her reaction, and just because this is the type of crazy shit I do, I came… Read more »
@Newlyaloof, this married stuff isn’t in my wheelhouse at all, but I assume you’ve read MMSL? And also I recently read a fantastic comment by a reader of Chateau Heartiste (back when it was still Roissy) who turned round his marriage – if you google “Heartiste Dave from Hawaii” it should pop up.
@Dutchman – that last post really struck a bit of a chord with me. I do something similar myself in social situations (also connected with how I let interactions fizzle out with girls I’m hitting on). I’ve been doing some reading on it (Juggler method etc, or even a good book on networking – the advice is almost the same anyway to build rapport whether it is Game related or not) and basically the idea is to match and empathize the other person’s emotional state and then lead them to where you want to go and also being authentic and… Read more »
@Calum, that Dave from Hawaii post was what broke through my beta defenses and finally turned my opinion around on the red pill.
Time will tell. My situ may not work, but I’ll be fine in the end.
@Culum
Yeah it’s hard as FUCK for me to open up and be vulnerable. I think that’s why my personal stories also bomb, because I’m not at ALL comfortable relating them. To me it’s like WHY would I want to be vulnerable? But that’s where social comfort comes from I guess lol.
@Redlight Thanks for the confirmation, and the advice. @Jeremy You didn’t specify, so I’m gonna assume you meant “Yes, that’s a good summary. Now here’s some extra perspective to keep in mind.” Thanks as well. @Other peeps Following up on this: Am I just misunderstanding what it means to “spin plates?” When I hear that, I think of a situation where you basically just see these chicks to fuck. You maybe do a few initial dates, but then just call them over for sex and make sure not to introduce them to your friends. Am I just oversimplifying it in… Read more »
@newlyaloof, I rarely link MMSL since Athol went full mayonnaise, but this was from his old blog and I think might help:
http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/08/how-walkaway-wives-run-a-dirty-map/
Even if you win, even if she recalibrates, you still lose because the overt Dread necessary to shock her into it ends up becoming a constant negotiating for her desire. Nothing is organic, spontaneous or unsolicited.
@Dutchman:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/23/vulnerability/
@newlyaloof Good, sounds like some solid internals/externals to start with. I suspect there’s some things you just don’t quite have pegged yet wrt generating attraction, otherwise you wouldn’t be confused about how up and down she is. Also possible there’s something you’re not getting about her state, or that something (like an affair maybe) is going on that you don’t know about. Not only does this draw her attraction elsewhere, it can make things confusing for a husband bc if you’re nice and acting in a fun/attractive way she’ll feel guilty instead of engaged. Also true if she feels like… Read more »
I think this cut and paste is appropriate to this thread. @Rugby originally tipped us off to this book. Yeah it is long, but I think it points out what not to do for those men starting a long term relationship, or trying not to screw up an existing relationship. I was talking to my daughter last night about her new boyfriend (who seems like a decent gentleman) and I mentioned that she can’t let a man be like the character, Dean, in the movie Blue Valentine. She mentioned that was a coincidence, she broke up with her last boyfriend… Read more »
@Rollo
I think I’m TOO guarded about everything. Even as a child, it was RIDICULOUS to me that women wanted me to act more vulnerable (BE LIKE THE GIRLS). I sort of rebelled against it by going too far in the other direction, and I have a hard time dropping my guard and just being chill with other people (including other dudes).
Like I don’t want to be a crying emoting faggot lol. I just want to have conversations in which I feel comfortable and people get along and are cool and everything.
Rollo’s right, even if I had been able to retrieve my relationship with game it wouldn’t have been worth it. I can see that in retrospect. Maybe if she was a really awesome girl and the thing started from complete scratch without any intention on my part years later lol. But in this case nah, she was a sweet girl and I LIKE her but she has real issues. She’d be deadweight for me and my missions.
@Dutchman
Are you typically smarter than most other people you find yourself in conversation with?
“Like I don’t want to be a crying emoting faggot lol. I just want to have conversations in which I feel comfortable and people get along and are cool and everything.”
False dichotomy. There are more emotions than weepiness and comfort.
Realize that small talk isn’t about talking, it’s about calibrating first, and about creating openings for people to express their personality second. It’s not meaningless.
@Rollo, thanks for that post. I feel I have a good understanding of that dynamic I’m stuck in already though. Not sure what actionable items I can take from that post. @forge, well, I didn’t know red pill when I married, so I went 12 years without it. I was no pushover beta, but I went on autopilot thinking my provider role should be enough to keep things hot. lol. I didn’t know red flags to look out for. She’s the kind of girl that has guy friends and little girlfriends. Her father died young and she felt that her… Read more »
And let me also add that this is very difficult because if I could, I’d be nutting 2-3 times a day. With that kind of sex drive, you can see why it’s extremely hard for me to keep my anger in check.
“Are you typically smarter than most other people you find yourself in conversation with?”
Not to be a douche but yes.
“Realize that small talk isn’t about talking, it’s about calibrating first, and about creating openings for people to express their personality second. It’s not meaningless.”
I know, I just seem to only have only two modes “cocky/funny” and guarded/stoic.” I SUCK at “chill/in the moment” which is what I think is missing.
@dutch Me: (not wanting to just be an entertainment monkey) poorly timed, overly detailed boring personal stories I would suggest eliminating the overly detailed boring person stories with quick emotional hit stories. You should have a bunch of these saved up, and pick the most appropriate for the occasion. These stories do not need to be true. In Avengers: Age of Ultron the Don Cheadle character is using a story like this at a party. Time these stories to be about two minutes, and try them out by yourself and in a various social settings. These are like elevator pitches,… Read more »
Here’s another story, see if you can guess where it came from. “So my friend just called me. He think his wife is cheating on him, so he plants a voice activated recorder in his car. He gets home, listens to it on earphones, and hears her talking to him on the phone, then when the call is over, she shouts to herself MOTHERFUCKER, MOTHERFUCKER, I’M GOING TO KILL YOU MOTHERFUCKER. Shit like that. Then he goes downstairs and she is all sweetness and kindness and she says I made you some soup. So he calls me and goes I… Read more »
“Not to be a douche but yes.” Lol figured, this is a common dynamic. I only ask cause I’ve been there and it’s fairly predictable. This changed for me (still effort some times, but the skill is there) when I got a job that required me to talk to all sorts of people for 15-20 minutes each for a big chunk of the day. Occasionally it would just happen that small talk would turn into a good convo, and after a while I started to recognize how it was happening. Both people need to be open to engagement, but people… Read more »
@redlight
That’s actually a great idea. There’s some fucking crazy stories we here on these boards, why not use them?
It’s funny, if you say it’s someone you know on the internet people think it’s lame. But if you just don’t mention that, and tell the same true story, people think it’s awesome.
It also removes the issue I have with most of the crazy stories I could tell – my social groups are intertwined enough that I can hardly tell stories about people I know without gossiping or maligning others.
@ Forge: I have that problem – almost all conversations (small talk) are inane to me. That is even with other highly intelligent people. How do you manage not to get bored? Sometimes I just want to get out of there but that would be considered rude etc.
@SJF — Great long comment there. It pretty much perfectly describes how a typical contemporary “equalist” marriage works. I’ve confronted women in equalist marriages about this online, and they basically say: “Well, we discuss major decisions and make them together, we’re a team!”. When I follow with “How many decisions are made where you don’t get your way?”, usually the response is: “Well, it’s not about keeping score like that! I mean, as long as we discuss and agree, why does it matter if almost all of the time he agrees with me? Why are you so paranoid and insecure?”… Read more »
SJF:
The “communication” part reminds me of one of Warren Farrells old books, where he notes that women say they want a sensitive man, who communicates (think it was Farrell). Basically an Allan Alda. So what if the man sat on the edge of the couples’ bed, crying and saying he wanted to talk about how he just lost his $50k job.
How many women would dig that? Be all sensitive and understanding to it.
All these musings are somewhat valid but they can only be taken seriously by men who have committed themselves to the subjugation of the female imperative. Rollo’s analysis is of the social dynamics experienced by a man who allows himself to be trapped within the frame of that subjugation. Just considering theses feminine influences, reflects personal concern of them. That concern cannot be entertained unless the man places personal importance upon them from a relatively self imagined inferior position. Otherwise the man really doesn’t give a shit. The man who is free of this is the man who is indifferent.… Read more »
@NBTM I get what you mean, but power isn’t just something that happens inside of people’s heads. FI influences have genuine power in our society apart from what you may think or not think about it. I may not agree with (hypothetical example) eminent domain, but that doesn’t make it disappear when the gub’mint comes knockin’ at my door. It’s true that many of the ways the FI has assumed power is through social conditioning, which does exist in your head and is therefore hypothetically reversible. I fully encourage such reversal. But some things you can’t change with a change… Read more »
@newlyaloof: ” . . . I’ll be fine in the end.”
This is the important part. The only important part.
@walawala: “i had an “open relationship” with one of my plates. We banged for around a year. She banged other dudes, I banged other girls. I didn’t ask any questions. But once at a party I walked into a store room to toss a beer can and she was blowing a dude I knew.” Hehe! Damn! It is what it is mate…we are men. As RP men especially, we embrace our nature….in essence for me this means that even if I have 10 plates I don’t share any one of them. Men are naturally polygynous, an “open relationship” was just… Read more »