Open Relationships

Functional_cuckoldry

During the last post’s comment thread I sort of went back in time to when I’d first heard the term ‘open relationship’. It was back in the mid 80s and I’d heard it being proposed to me by my first girlfriend when I was around 19 and she’d grown bored of my predictable Beta perfection. Needless to say this moment preceded my semi-pro rock star 20s and the natural Alpha-ness I matured into. So at the time I was thoroughly steeped in the dutiful Beta conditioning of believing that ‘going steady’ monogamy and only banging the ONE girl was the right thing to do.

I also believed that women’s motives were reliably based on what they said rather than what their behaviors implied (and their contradicting behaviors were the result of being confused by nebulous ‘society’s’ unfair expectations of women). So it was with a great deal of confusion that I was forced to wrap my head around exactly why my ‘girlfriend’ would want to retain me as an intimate orbiter while she pursued other guys to bang and become potential intimates with.

She suggested an “open relationship” – all the same non-sexual intimate expectations with no expectation of reciprocal sexual fidelity –  an idea she’d no doubt been familiarized with from her former hippie ‘free love‘ parents. And not unlike the simpering Beta in today’s cartoon, I too was uncomfortable with sharing my 18 year old girlfriend with any other guy. Looking back it was quite the conflict to my 19 year old, Beta conditioned mind. On one hand I was taught to respect the independence of a woman and didn’t want to be the guy to tell her what she could or couldn’t do, but I also bought into the Disneyesque sacrifice all for true love narrative.

I suppose now I owe her some gratitude since my rejecting this “I want to play the field” episode was instrumental in setting me on a course for my Alpha 20s and the “don’t give a fuck” attitude that unintentionally served me so well with women then.

Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate. I had this situation presented in last weeks’ comments:

Why does an open relationship favor women and not men? It’s only cuckoldry if you don’t approve of it. If you agree to an open relationship for both of you, then it seems like an equal footing.

The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.

Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.

Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves. Arguably, most stay at home fathers fall into a sort of contextual form of an open relationship for much of the same reasons even if their wives are only getting a vicarious Alpha ‘fix’ by working among higher status men who haven’t abdicated on their burden of performance by adopting the feminine support role.

What About Those Assholes?

Now I am aware of the often domineering men who insist on fucking women outside of their commitment to a monogamous lover. I also understand that the reverse can and does apply. I’m also aware that when a man’s SMV exceeds a woman’s it places her into a similar position to that of the Beta men I’ve just described.

Bear in mind that the issue I’m on about here isn’t one of fault, but rather how an effectively polygamous relationship serves the interests of either genders’ sexual strategy.

It’s vitally important to consider how both of these ‘open relationship’ formats are popularly perceived in a cultural context. For a woman, being ‘poly’ may hold some stigma to it. She may be considered a de facto slut in some sense – remember she’s maintaining the pretense that she’s committed to one or more men, rather than a booty call where there is no pretense of exclusivity – but the social (not to mention legal assurance) efforts being made to ‘normalize’ what amounts to her cuckoldry of that ‘primary’ partner is reinforced because it seemingly serves as some kind of new-age feminine-primary family unit. And after all, he too is ostensibly free to exercise his sexual strategy in this arrangement. A win-win, right?

In the case where the ‘primary’ partner is the woman and the high SMV man leaves her no choice but to adopt his sexual strategy as the dominant one in the relationship, that ‘open relationship’ is considered dysfunctional and socially frowned upon. He’s a cad or a philanderer at best, and an abusive self-absorbed inconsiderate monster at worst. Reverse the sexes in today’s cartoon and imagine what the feminine-primary social response might be.

Force Fitting Sexual Strategies

What we’re observing in a modern interpretation of ‘poly’ or ‘open relationships’ is a conflict between the normalization of unilateral control of sexual strategy within a monogamous relationship context. I know that sounds like a mouthful but consider…

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

No doubt many Blue and Purple Pill readers will (in the interests of “equality”) remind us that there was a time when it was socially expected of (high socio-economic status) men to “keep” a mistress (or use prostitutes) as well as a wife, or even have many wives. All socio-economic Apex Fallacies aside, this being an outlier rather than a norm, those arrangements still put that man into a position of maintaining support for both (all) women in order to satisfy his sexual appetites as well as the relative wellbeing of them.

In the modern instance where western(ized) women are a protected class in a feminine-primary social order, the priority of sexual strategy changes hands. I cover this exchange in the Adaptation series of posts, but to paraphrase, Free Love, open relationships or now, ‘poly’, has really become an increasingly acceptable methodology for women to optimize both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy while still enjoying a semblance of the security that old order monogamy provides for women’s emotional needs.

Now lets review The Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

In an economic state where women are less financially dependent on (or autonomous from) men, the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy will take priority. That’s not to say the Beta comfort and rapport appeal becomes worthless as an emotional investment, but it’s less likely for a woman to need to prioritize that aspect while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect. Beta comfort and security have a value, but that value requires less urgency than pursing Alpha sexual experience (functional breeding opportunities).

Consider the poor Beta symp in the cartoon. That caricature is of a Beta conditioned man struggling with the Old Set of Books, with the old order ruleset expectations from a woman who will never recognize them because she’s never needed to. It’s his investment in her, his necessitousness, his optionlessness and his inability to see it’s the source of his frustration and his anxiety. He needs her, expects more from her, than she needs him.

The lie inherent in the humor of the cartoon is that women possess the capacity to compartmentalize their emotional investments. The Medium is the Message; women can only compartmentalize their feelings for men they don’t see as Hypergamously optimal men (i.e. Alpha, higher than their own SMV men). For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.

And from Schedules of Mating:

For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.

‘Open’ relationships, and the social narrative reinforcement of the concept, are one such adaptation to facilitate this methodology.

All of this may seem a bit pervasive coming from the guy who advises men to spin plates and date non-exclusively for as long as it takes (if ever) to attain the depth of experience to become a relatively good judge of women’s innate nature, and then if he so chooses, decide how best to pair and parent with her.

The difference in this approach is characteristic of the differences in men and women’s sexual strategies. In Plate Theory, while there is an above board implication of non-exclusivity, there is never an implication that a woman is (or should be) more than a non-exclusive dating opportunity. There should never be any pretense of there being an established, invested relationship as we see in the ‘poly’ concept of women.

In fact this is the primary distinction in non-exclusivity; who’s Frame is the predominant one? In a woman’s ‘poly’ Frame there is a retainership implied in what she believes should be an accepted non-exclusivity.

Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship? What unique advantages does he get in this arrangement that he couldn’t by simply staying single, practicing Game and spinning plates? Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

When you’re contemplating this, try to divorce yourself from the emotional investments and focus on cold hard evolved Hypergamy and how it would function for either sex in that arrangement. Keep in mind that as far as feminized society is concerned, and for all of the triumphalism of independent women, the onus of committed relationship responsibility still defines the worth of a man.

Beta “Manhood”

From MoodyPrism had an interesting observation about the social acceptance of cuckoldry:

I’ve seen men make the mistake of mentioning that they would never raise another man’s child on FaceBook. Shit storms ensued. The usual shaming tactics were trotted out such as manning up. Interestingly enough I’ve heard a woman (on one of those absolutely dreadful day time talk shows such as the View) say that a woman in a relationship with a man with his own kids was a fool for wasting her time on his kids instead of hers. The framework for open cuckoldry is already there, we just need to see the push that makes it completely socially acceptable.

Open Cuckoldry is already in its developmental stage in a social respect. When you consider the Sandbergian plan for Open Hypergamy, the logical implication of this is what’s described here – prioritizing the sexual selection and Hypergamous optimization of women on a societal level while maximally restricting (via social shaming and disapproval) the sexual strategies that would ever serve male interests,…so long as that male is anything less than an optimal Alpha.

Open Cuckoldry has many euphemisms now, but in the Red Pill aware perspective it’s just a matter of time until the social plan of prioritized Hypergamy and outright cuckoldry becomes a social norm.

TuffLuv also presented me with a related question in the last comment thread:

A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch.

So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference between a man raising another man’s child(ren) where the bio father is less alpha (possibly by far) than the new suitor, and a beta man raising the child of one of the woman’s former studs.. I think in the real world you find the former far more than the latter, except in cases where the married or committed woman actually went out and cheated and got pregnant with another man’s child. Maybe that happens a lot but that is not *open* cuckoldry.. That’s classic cuckoldry, and perhaps the only thing that should be called cuckoldry.

I think there should be another designation for the former case. It’s still a bit shameful, but not nearly as much as the latter, eh?

Definitely something to consider, but this situation also implies a change in conditions or context with regard to the woman doing the cuckolding. The fundamentals don’t change – that woman may have bred with a less than optimal man, but the Hypergamous sexual selection impulse still drives her to seek out the Alpha fucks aspect of Hypergamy. She’s Making Up for Missing Out and still she has the provisioning and support she needs in order to pursue the opposite side of the Hypergamous equation she missed out on courtesy of the Beta father.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Rami Hiltunen
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I noticed this paradigm chance in Scandinavia also. Media started to promote open relationship with celebrities.

Prolly the most idiotic relationship form that males can enter into…

Dave
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Dave
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Excellent article. Rollo, pursuant to this topic need some advice. What are your thoughts on alternative lifestyle such as swinging / swapping? What does a guy in an LTR stand to lose in the long term? Is this a slippery slope leading to an open relationship?. Some background: In an LTR presently, I have high social status, heavy prior use of dread game. She is hot / very attractive but has a high level of suspicion that I can / have / will bang other girls at work. She has suggested a threesome and I have mandated “female only” as… Read more »

Sam Botta (@sambotta)
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Ask yourself this, why would a man persist in an ‘open’ relationship?

Then ask yourself what unique benefits does a woman receive from the same ‘polyamorous’ arrangement?

Yollo Comanche
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Hmph. I’m so glad I found out about you Rollo. And even moreso I’m glad I found out about YaReally through you. What amounts to the “Doom and Gloom” some people refer to when it comes to you and your work really seems moreso to apply to men who’d let this shit happen to them. Not Red-pills. She still only has access to men she can realistically attract. How many of those guys are “Optimal Alphas”? And how many of these “optimal Alphas” have access to the internet, and may not be interested in sharing their woman? If women and… Read more »

J
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J
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Going with your previous posts about about Open Hypergamy

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/magazine/should-i-tell-my-friends-husband-that-shes-having-an-affair.html?WT.mc_id=2015-KWP-AUD_DEV&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVREMARK&kwp_0=65400&kwp_4=369992&kwp_1=222591&_r=0

Normalizing of adultery in marriage. Rationalizing covering up a friend’s affair as the best outcome.

We will probably see more of this “It’s for the best”.

(But for whom?)

wacokid
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If you were a “beta” are you still a “beta” even if now you are acting like an “alpha” ? No one I know has gone from being a “pussy” to the leader of the pack. The real “alphas” do not allow that. Or is it just around women that you refer to yourselves as “alphas”.

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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@Rollo: Nailed it.

CaveClown
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Now wait, maybe I’m missing something… But in an open relationship, where she goes off to fuck other dudes, wouldn’t the sex with the “primary” just trickle down to nothing? Cue the sad handjobs! So the dude in an open relationship with her would literally only get the “privelage” of providing? Its like wives that cheat, I think most of the time there is little or no sex at home with the husband. Have their cake and eat it too, is all this is. ‘re: swinging “If you’re going to swing, be the biggest dick in the room” – Athol… Read more »

CaveClown
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Here’s some truth too…

My wife provides plenty of value to me.

Having sex with other women does NOT decrease her value to me.

(Having options decreases my scarcity NEED, but not my WANT to have her around)

I can love my wife and still fuck around is all I’m saying.

I think most men, if it weren’t for blue pill beta programming, could say the same of themselves.

Women can’t compartmentalize in the same way.

jack
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I don’t think women are looking for open relationships to get more provisioning, right? I mean if they can find a richer provider, then they would just change men.

So most of the time it means a woman has already maximized the provisioning side, but needs to boost the sexual side. If the dick she currently owns is not getting it done, of what use is it? Perhaps some courtesy fucks here and there, but maybe not.

kfg
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kfg
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” If the dick she currently owns is not getting it done, of what use is it? ”

Cooking, cleaning, changing diapers and receiving packages from UPS. Beyond that he’s her parachute, her insurance policy. She doesn’t need him for provisioning, per se . . . but she might and he’s reliably whipped.

Men will jump off a cliff to find out what happens. Women will not unless they know what will happen.

The dude’s her tested and trusted bungee chord.

rugby11
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For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she’s able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring’s survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.
… Work

Paul Murray
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The primary thing in a woman’s life is other women. The things they do, they do to compete with other women. Men are just one way of doing that.

Pinelero
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yeah open relationships are ridiculous. If that’s what you are in, then being single is better, as you don’t have a SO to provide for. Women in the open relationships can’t deal with the partner fucking around or having him getting another woman to fall in love with him.

LeeLee
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“For men who embody that optimization, women simply cannot afford to feel anything more than submission (a submission to a dominant man they innately desire) to him and are thus unable to consider anything like compartmentalizing their emotions for him.” Exactly. I would also say that compartmentalization is masculine, bottom line. There is this Christian marriage book that’s all about how men are spaghetti and women are waffles. I’ve never read it but the metaphor is amazing. The whole idea is that men are like waffles, like they have little separate squares to put feelings and situations and different parts… Read more »

stuffinbox
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Why does open relationship favor women and not men?
A woman can knock on one door and get laid 100 times.
A man can knock on 100 doors to get laid once.

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[…] post today inspired by a concept broached in Rollo’s most recent […]

kfg
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kfg
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A woman can get laid 100 times and get one kid and at least one child support payment. If she’s really slick, maybe as many as three.

A man get get laid once and get to pay child support equal to more than he makes for the next 24 years (plus penalties and interest on the shortfall) and not even find out the kid isn’t his until he’s too deep in to get out.

stuttie
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I think the “open relationship” dynamic is just the evolution of the LJBF shit test whilst in a LTR. It really serves as an agreed and accepted time-bridge for her to openly branch-swing, whilst maintaining the beta’s safety net of resources – usually so she can squirrel away enough resources to eventually drop the “open relationship” once she’s satisfied her hypergamy. Her sexual strategy must always be strictly on her time scale.

The City Bachelor (@TheCityBachelor)
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Ah the dreadful fate of being beta in a LTR. When she asks, “What do you think of open relationships?” That’s when you know you’ve fucked up.

Is This Thing On?
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Is This Thing On?
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I’m currently witnessing two separate relationships that are illustrating the AFBB dynamic. Two of my friends are both marrying women with multiple kids from other men. I don’t doubt a single thing you have written Rollo. What is interesting however is that these “lessons” the women have “learned”, as predictable as they may be, are also totally real to these women. In their heads they dated the jerks, learned their lessons, and have finally found someone who appreciates them for realz and will take care of them and their brood. It’s kind of surreal with red pill awareness. To see… Read more »

Blaximus
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” Why does open relationship favor women and not men? A woman can knock on one door and get laid 100 times. A man can knock on 100 doors to get laid once.” Women drive the act of sex. Men take the blame/responsibility. Practically every woman I have ever bedded has actually made the decision/selection. Game just expedited the process and helped to guide that choice. The average man would never attempt to put forth the proposition of having an Open Relationship. Men might talk about such a thing among themselves, but a super-majority would NEVER approach a wife with… Read more »

Mazrim
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I can’t find a reason why a man would or should accept a open relationship when we/he can just spin plates & improve game. It just lines a man up for more providorship. Open relationships that is.

Meanwhile, a female recieves all kinds of benifits: side slice of alpha cock as some have already mentioned, more money and/or gifts/goodies, ATTENTION, men competing for her which then provides ego nurishment and fulfillment. Seems like winning for women, you know what for the rest of the AFC’s out there

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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All you need to know about “open relationships”:

A key that opens any lock is a master key. A lock that opens for any key is a shitty lock. Choose your locks appropriately.

bluepillprofessor
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Our 5 closest living relatives- Chimps, Orangutans, Gorillas, Gibbons and Bonobos share roughly 98% of our DNA which diverged from humans about 5-7 million years ago. Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangutans are quite sexually dimorphic (big males, smaller females) and have a Harem sexual mating system (Males rule and collect a harem of females that he guards from other males). The strongest male gets the biggest harem. Orangutans are much less sexually dimorphic and they are a Matriarchy. The smaller females will gang up together as a group of team woman Tang to subdue any disobedient male, first by shouting him… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@LeeLee

The concept you’re talking about we call ‘female solipsism.’ More or less.

I’ve written about it a bunch (think it was under the article ‘Solipsism I’ in particular) b/c it’s a tricky thing for men and women to mutually grasp. Basically women tend to bleed together all factors into a current ‘now’ experience that supersedes all other perspectives – whether their own (past) perspectives, or other people’s perspectives.

For women, everything is a factor. And ‘everything’ is all the things currently in awareness – no more, no less.

Mean Mr. Mustard
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Women are miserable creatures – Patrice O’neal.

mad_kalak
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For those who cannot imagine a man who would want an open relationship, let me speak up. I was married for 8 years (we lost our virginity to each other) when I asked her for the open relationship, the idea being that I wanted a fling or two here and there, offering her the same. We have children and I can tell you honestly she was not going to run off on me (yes, AWALT, whatever). She had no interest. From her point of view, I had married her and I was hers, no sharing. She simply cannot see that… Read more »

rugby11
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Saw open relationship this evening.
http://irishsecure.com/books/The%20ETHICS%20OF%20AMBIGUITY.pdf
It’s interesting to see how it works.

walawala
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i had an “open relationship” with one of my plates. We banged for around a year. She banged other dudes, I banged other girls. I didn’t ask any questions. But once at a party I walked into a store room to toss a beer can and she was blowing a dude I knew. I never said a word. We never spoke of that. I nexted her immediately. She texted a day later saying “so drunk that night”. Nothing. There is a point where this just isn’t cool. I think you have to know your limits and when to say when.… Read more »

batfish55
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If we’re going by ‘the Old Set of Books’….

Men are the pigs. Men are the ones who can’t keep it in their pants. When a man gets into a committed relationship, it’s a major sacrifice he makes to not fuck around.

If that’s *really* the case, then why are there poly women popping up? If it’s tough for a guy to be faithful, then surely it should be no problem for a women to remain faithful.

That is, if we’re going by the Old Set of Books.

Driver
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Too many people in our society will chalk this up to women (now) being on the same playing field as men. What they won’t admit or want to talk about is how men are the ones who usually get screwed over in our legal system – by default. I agree with men staying single if they want options because once they are married there is no open relationship. If she wants an open relationship then it’s time for a divorce (thus, women win the money and they are now free to pursue new men). In addition, men marrying women with… Read more »

Liz
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I’ve never seen an “open” marriage turn out well, longterm. I think the “swinger” movement started with fighter pilots. They call it the “Lifestyle” last I heard. Some bases have more of it than others (remote locations seem to do it more, no surprise there). Everyone claims it’s just fun, and all that. In my experience women have a harder time “compartmentalizing” than men. However, I’ve seen a lot of men leave their wives for mistresses. There was a flight attendant a while back who was juggling two married Captains. The Captains thought it was exclusive (at least, on her… Read more »

Bachelorocles
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The normalization of cuckoldry has always been in the air in this breeder culture we call America where the brood sow is worshiped as a special magical being. The 1998 movie Waking Ned Divine disseminated the brood sow propaganda that it doesn’t matter that the “father” doesn’t know it’s not his child. And it’s only gotten worse. JFK had multiple sex partners, everyone kind of knew it, and the nation respected his privacy. Today, cheating male politicians are lampooned and run out of office while the press never inquires into the sex lives of female politicians or the wives of… Read more »

LeeLee
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LeeLee
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@Sun Wukong – That is a brilliant metaphor!

@Forge the Sky – Interesting. I’ve been meaning to learn about and understand solpisism better.

enrique
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enrique
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@BluePillProf: Women will continue screaming at men in public (ala Yale) until men are willing to get back up into their faces, make it clear he feels assaulted, and starts pushing her away from his face, just like any woman could do, or any parent could do to a stranger screaming at your child. The Yale guy is a liberal White Squire Mangina who deserved everything he got, in public fashion. Like he said to the crowd, “hey, I support/ed everything you do/have”. Fuck him and guys like him, he got hoisted with his own petard. In fact, MGTOWs and… Read more »

IliadsTangent
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I hate to put it so literally, yet its my observation that yonger women essentially consider all their relationships “open” as a default status. If Mister Beta comes in and assumes he’s the only one she’ll let him believe so because his presence serves her purposes. Yet, whether she says so openly or not, few modern women consider themselves truly bound to their boyfriends /husbands .If a better guy comes along and she won’t be socially marginalized for it, she will act on it and to hell with the consequences. As such, its my belief the “Open Relationship” label is… Read more »

newlyaloof
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Field Report: When a relationship is stressed and both people in it are at each other’s throats, it becomes an emotional open relationship in a way. One or both stop trying and stop respecting each other to the point where does it really matter if they physically cheat? This past week, I’ve found a new calmness in dealing with things that would have caused me to blow up. That’s a big development for me. I’ve been much happier even though I still have to correct my wife for stuff I deem disrespectful to varying degrees. But she’s constantly rushing around… Read more »

Tom
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Tom
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LOL- I’m still not getting what the big deal is here. Polyamatory (or whatever nom-de-jour is being used today) is Fucking Fantastic for us guys who just want to get our rocks off with lots of female members of the species. Give the ladies their feelz without the hypocrisy of “affairs” while their beta dwerbs who could never satisfy them anyways continue to flush their lives down the disney drain. Lots of guys waste their lives doing online gaming, doing drugs, watching porn … so what? We don’t get all hot and bothered about problems people have that existed long… Read more »

Ang Aamer
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There really is no reason for a man to invest in a long term open relationship. There is no guarantee of paternity. And given Hypergamy a female will game the males to oblivion.

Every single girl who informed me of her open relationship status tried to bed me.

Perhaps Open relationships are merely a woman putting a fence around her beta orbiters and domesticating the herd. Because you know Miss Open is still looking for Alpha Meat.

CaveClown
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“my AWALT crystal ball says in a generation the boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic will basically cease to exist. ” My HS aged niece says this is already the case. She says there is no “dating” really at all. Take a girl out? No, doesn’t happen. The closest they come is him inviting her to a party with 100 other people. They use the boyfriend/girlfriend terminology, but only if others know she is fucking him for a longer period of time, and only as a sort of ASD. Otherwise, girls proudly talk of their “hooking up” with multiple high value males. For their… Read more »

Tom
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Tom
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And @newlyaloof , This is over. You need a pitbull lawyer ASAP. The reason you need a pitbull is because you’ve got a very pissed-off woman on your hands, Don’t underestimate how dangerous your situation is. This woman has made it clear that she will turn on you, and it appears to me that there is a high probablity of this degenerating into what lawyers call a ‘high-conflict’ divorce. It’s fantastic that you’re outcome-independent, because that’s exactly what you need. Keep her completely clueless, prepare the ground for the split, sock away enough assets, especially cash, keep on recording (ABR-Always… Read more »

Dutchman
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@Cave,

“Says guys are either “video gamers” or the “one’s that get laid” with no between.

AF without any real BB to speak of.”

I suspect that will change as they age. <18 girls don't have a need for BB.

Bachelorocles
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newlyaloof,

You have potentially a looming divorce. Get thee immediately to a good divorce attorney to receive counseling on how best to protect your assets and how best to behave in order to best position yourself in a custody dispute.

In the mean time, never underestimate the power of giving her a good fight, a good spanking, walking out for a month or two, and, of course, dread game. Do not deal with her rational faculties. Deal with her limbic system.

enrique
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@Newlyaloof, be careful recording without consent, it is NOT legal in ALL states to do so, even of a spouse. It may be in your state, but it is not in all states, not even in your own house or car. You might want to head over to DadsDivorce.com, which has a lot of good info, especially in the forums. Search and read “The List” (or google it), it’s been floating around the father’s rights/divorced fathers sphere for 15 years, with some updates I am sure. It is INVALUABLE as far as strategic thinking. From reading your post, you are… Read more »

enrique
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Newlyaloof:

http://forum.mensdivorce.com/viewtopic.php?t=13374

Read it asap.

CaveClown
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@Dutchman, yeah you are right. @newly, That sucks man. Yeah, listen to Tom. Dangerous waters for sure. You are on stage, everything you say to her will come back, so watch it. No anger. DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. It WILL be used against you in court, especially when it comes to child custody. I would assume she is already cheating. Keep that in mind as far as STD prevention. (lots of raw dogging in affairs) Also, if she freaks out and decides she wants you around, beware of her getting pregnant to keep you. It’s also common that a… Read more »

zip
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@ Dutchman

“I suspect that will change as they age. <18 girls don't have a need for BB."

No it will not. Cause as the little carousel rider ages public welfare and social service steps in. Governmental subsidy is the new BB.

I know a lots of "heroic" single moms in their thirties. They have zero need for any human BB.

SJB
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My experience of women who self-identify as poly are of very low SMV. I’d assumed they could only get orbiters by putting out—literal attention whores.

Dutchman
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@zip,

Yeah, but there is a huge stigma attached to welfare/single motherhood. The government might provide enough to live, but it doesn’t provide enough to have dat pinterest lifestyle they start dreaming about in their mid to late 20s.

And I’m not saying women won’t have LESS use for BB, but they will still have PLENTY of use for them. Shit is changing, but it’s not changing THAT fast.

Dutchman
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@newlyaloof,

Wow, what a fucking cunt.

Abram
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I’m 50, my wife is 40, my GF is 29, both look a good ten years younger than they are, and are intelligent, accomplished, high value women. We have a fully polyamorous arrangement. They aren’t with me for provisioning, they are with me (and share me) because I am the alpha in their lives. My wife enjoys plenty of male attention, but she only has eyes for me. My GF dreams of an exclusive provider, but we all know she won’t be able to settle for one. The only problem I have with this arrangement is keeping two sexually voracious… Read more »

zip
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“Yeah, but there is a huge stigma attached to welfare/single motherhood.”

Maybe still in the States but not in “liberal” Europe. Au contraire are single mothers glorified in poor old Europe.

They have a bunch of orbiters around them, true. They use them on occasion, e.g. for going on holidays, managing relocations or “having fun”. But rarely one is committed to these orbiters.

enrique
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There’s no “stigma” in the US attached to welfare of single motherhood, and many of the single moms, you know, the one living in that $500k home in your neighborhood, are receiving Child Support, and possibly Alimony and many in the lower-middle-class-yet-still-drives-an-Acura class are receiving some form of welfare, soft or hard. Most welfare is “hidden” from view anyhow, which has helped de-shame it’s receipt and also shielded it’s recipients. I think people, particular White folk, are COMPLETELY oblivious to just HOW MUCH welfare minorities receive. And almost all programs are designed to give welfare benefits to “needy” mothers, which… Read more »

Emily
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Open relationships aren’t really relationships at all really.

Humans are naturally conditioned to be monogamous, so I’m not really sure what’s wrong with people who desire open relationships. Also, it seems to be far more beneficial for the women, so I’m not sure why a man would agree.

kfg
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@Newlyaloof:

The general advice I have offered here is to get your divorce lawyer working on your case before you get married.

You’re late to the rodeo; lawyer up cowboy.

Dutchman
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@enrique “There’s no “stigma” in the US attached to welfare of single motherhood, and many of the single moms, you know, the one living in that $500k home in your neighborhood, are receiving Child Support, and possibly Alimony and many in the lower-middle-class-yet-still-drives-an-Acura class are receiving some form of welfare, soft or hard. ” There isn’t a stigma attached to a DIVORCED single mother living it up on beaucoup child support BB, but there is definitely still a stigma attached to the “I’ve never been married and rely on welfare subsidies to support my brood” shit. How many yuppieish hot… Read more »

newlyaloof
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Update, just talked to her on the phone calmly. Created a friendly atmosphere in the words and tone I used (Thanks guys, kind of like, let’s be friendly for the holiday spirit). I reiterated that I did not in any way make up the website malfunction and showed her how she could go to the site and see what I meant. She actually replied, “I know. I know. I didn’t doubt you for a second.” Total lie. I’d say that it’s unbelievable, but we know better don’t we. She’s mid forties, talks about how she thinks menopause is coming up… Read more »

CaveClown
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“Humans are naturally conditioned to be monogamous” hahahahahahahahahhaha! Thanks, needed that laugh after a depressing post such as this, and then seeing newlyaloof’s troubles too. @enrique when the wife and I were having troubles, she was actively encouraged to divorce me by pretty much all other women she knew. Yeah, there is no stigma on single mom’s. There is a stigma on being alone though. With that said, it’s impossible to know what the current 16-25 year old’s relationships will look like in 10-15 years. Sure, open relationships, open hypergamy, poly whatever…but men are checking out in droves, so how… Read more »

SJB
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Dutchman
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“when the wife and I were having troubles, she was actively encouraged to divorce me by pretty much all other women she knew. Yeah, there is no stigma on single mom’s. There is a stigma on being alone though.” I have no doubt my wife’s friends would “you go girl!” her all the way to the courthouse if she went that route (while talking shit behind her back lol) but I don’t think she would HAVE those same friends in the first place if she was a never been married single mother welfare recipient instead of a married middle class… Read more »

Dutchman
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@newlyaloof, “Update, just talked to her on the phone calmly. Created a friendly atmosphere in the words and tone I used (Thanks guys, kind of like, let’s be friendly for the holiday spirit). I reiterated that I did not in any way make up the website malfunction and showed her how she could go to the site and see what I meant. She actually replied, “I know. I know. I didn’t doubt you for a second.” Total lie. I’d say that it’s unbelievable, but we know better don’t we. She’s mid forties, talks about how she thinks menopause is coming… Read more »

SJB
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@newlyaloof: a woman is insane to begin with; add perimenopause and it’s a vial of nitro. Sure ride the wave; yet there is no dishonor in having a PFD.

newlyaloof
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@Dutchman “was it hard for you not to call her out on that shit?” I thought about it, but I didn’t WANT to call her out. It has no long-term strategy gain to do so. Besides, I like controlling the great feeling I’m having lately of controlling my frame and being calm more than I wish to “win the argument.” I am treating all interactions moving forward as potential actions to be used against me in court. I plan to be happier and more carefree and act like our relationship is the best despite all the issues I’ve brought up.… Read more »

newlyaloof
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P.S. About a week ago after reading some stuff from Scrib and YaR and others, I realized I needed to be more calm and handle my frame better. It has helped me tremendously with inner development this past week. Concurrently, I was at a Mom’s store a week ago looking for some B-12 shit my wife has harping on me getting for the kids. I saw all these essential oils (which I think is all hippy hogwash generally) as I was looking for the b-12. Saw one for Sage Oil – Mental calmness or some shit the label read. I… Read more »

enrique
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If you are contemplating divorce, she’s already 5-10 steps ahead of you. Read “The List” and absolutely fight any instinct to White Knight, unless it is part of some underlying subterfuge, or to obscure your intent to divorce. Once it get’s kicking, you are absolutely advised, to NOT leave your house, and to openly record in front of her, everything. THAT has saved many men. One thing I have noticed from having gone through my own divorce and observing other men for 15 years…if you openly (and safely) battle back, such as recording every interaction, openly, and let them know… Read more »

kfg
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” I was at a Mom’s store a week ago looking for some B-12 shit my wife has harping on me getting for the kids . . .”

If she weren’t feeding them sugar frosted Crap-In-A-Box for breakfast they wouldn’t need it.

Striver
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“They tried to make us gibbons.” Who are “they?” It’s men all the way down. Forget about humans are naturally this or that. Unless you want to live in grass huts. The struggle is why we have all of these nice things. The tension. So hypergamy is necessary, I guess, but it must be struggled against. Too much orangutan, the men do nothing. Betas can organize and kill alphas, harems won’t work for humans in the long run. Too much temptation makes gibbon a struggle to maintain. RP alone is nihilistic and ignores that fate must be struggled against. Ultimately… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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@newlyaloof enrique has given you some spot on advice. I know more than one woman who dumped both husband and kids when they thought Chad Thundercock was going to take care of her for the rest of her life. If you can engineer that, so much the better. You can make all of your legal maneuvers much easier if you can get her in that state of mind. And get a damn lawyer. So much divorce advice depends on where you live and the laws that pertain. I will say, you might want to start making extra ATM withdrawals and… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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Also, you can get an app on your phone that records all calls. Check your local laws however. Not all locations allow for one party consent of recordings.

kfg
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” . . . you might want to start making extra ATM withdrawals and socking the cash away somewhere.”

And a safe house (or even just a self-store) would be dandy if you can swing it. Sock away some place to go, or at least some stuff to have.

Make up a go bag as well, something you can grab as you’re grabbed out the door. Make sure it contains a USB drive with copies of all your vital documents on it.

Is This Thing On?
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@kfg

Oh god yes. Don’t even think about storing your evidence in your home. Get it out and somewhere else the moment you collect anything useful.

enrique
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@newlyaloof: you absolutely need to read The List, and start planning. Oh, and all this stuff men think about how if they work harder, make more money…all that will be used against you. You need to focus on being fatherly, and robotic. Soccer dad who just wants to be so loving to her and for her to be happy. Beta down, encourage her hypergamy: “Fuck’s sake Sarah, I want you to be HAPPY, why are you not already living with him? I get it…I failed…you’re right. Sheesh. Look, I’m taking the kids to the park, it seems like it’s all… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
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@newlyaloof: TRM is a great resource but these hard core guys are not interested in “saving” a marriage. You can also try https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill with your field report and question. I will be happy to discuss/answer over there. On the TRM forum I have three questions for you: Are you leading? Are you just collecting information for the divorce? Or do you want to try to “fix” this? I have 2 points: 1. A woman will treat you precisely as badly as YOU let her treat you. 2. Because a woman rants and raves uncontrollably does NOT mean the marriage is… Read more »

enrique
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@BluePillProf My experience suggests that most men seeking to “Salvage” a marriage, are operating under Rollo’s well-named “Old Set of Books”. In a case like Aloof’s where he has already heard her, discretely recorded, articulate her utter contempt for him, he SHOULD be divorcing her (following the rules set out by learned men in the Father’s Rights Movement, most of whom are WAY BEYOND in Red Pill wisdom). Trying to save anything with a chick like this, is essentially giving her time to reload. He can slow down the clock, by letting her Thundercock for a while, but he should… Read more »

Stultus Sum
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@Driver “It’s the only way that this trend will reverse – once women realize their value plummets (being told by men) when they already have kids.” Your assessment is sound, but Women don’t think that way. They simply double their efforts in landing a soft enough chump to sign up for the job. Or, worse, they get knocked up again and trap some misguided AFC. As long as there are plenty of AFC’s buying into the Disneyesque fantasy they crave (and there are legions of them) the tide of Open Cuckholdery is not going to recede anytime soon. All we… Read more »

kfg
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” . . . these hard core guys are not interested in “saving” a marriage.”

I am not interested in “saving” a marriage, but my advice is not only neutral, aspects of it can used as pieces in the game of saving a marriage by saving the man.

And saving the man is something I am interested in.

Along that line, the only men I have ever advised to actually leave a marriage are those that are married to cluster B’s.

TuffLuv
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@newlyaloof SUBTLY son.. and before you let on about any hint of splitting. i.e. over the course of about six months. – Start closing credit card accounts she has access to that are tied to your name. – Start making small cash withdrawals that will go unnoticed that you can sock away. Get $20 cash back on convenience store debit purchases, for example. – Begin contacting lawyers every day and inquire about their services, giving your full name to them.. Find out who the best *man-slaying* lawyers in town are, and contact them. make a record of every one you… Read more »

enrique
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I think it’s a matter of perspective. If a guy is contemplating divorce–the feeling is in the air–you can bet she’s WAY AHEAD of him in planning. I think Aloof could find himself balls deep in Pendente Lite payments, changed locks, restraining orders. Seen it too many times to not warn otherwise. Saving the man in this case, is forcing him to recognize her chess moves and to prepare according to OUR set of books. Countless men have thought they were gaming their wives (when the conditions are as he has laid out) only to get hammered anyhow, a year,… Read more »

enrique
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Tufflaw cements what I am saying. Also, when it comes to mediation and White Knight tendencies…remember, if you ACT like a wallet, you will get treated like one. You MUST make it clear that you are going to actively parent, do all that 100 percent, etc. Now, having said all this, as Tufflaw and other men have noted, even when you are fucking PERFECT, it’s still difficult. The biggest thing I learned, of the many things, which would almost seem to nullify our advice (but doesn’t) is: The rules do not apply equally to her. If I had a penny… Read more »

Dutchman
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@enrique “The biggest thing I learned, of the many things, which would almost seem to nullify our advice (but doesn’t) is: The rules do not apply equally to her. If I had a penny for every time my ex did something unlawful, or violated procedural law (even with her attorney’s advice), or failed to disclose something…fuck. She didn’t even attend the court ordered parenting classes (which are typical). She basically proved female bias, and gave zero fucks about any of it, because she knew–the Courts will NOT sanction her in most cases. ” Family court judges would seem to the… Read more »

kfg
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“Those dudes have NO excuse for it either.”

Actually, where children and/or charges of domestic abuse are involved, they do. Kickbacks; they are not, as judges are supposed to be, independent. They have self interest involved.

newlyaloof
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Thanks Tuff, Enrique,and everyone else. I’m into prepping, so I shall merely expand my efforts on this front.

I actually would like to work it out, but besides the kids, I won’t suffer if it doesn’t since I get eyes from 20-somethings and 30-somethings regularly.

enrique
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Aloof: Remember, VENT here, or other places on the RP/Manosphere (encrypted or password protected of course). Do not share your ideas, hopes and dreams with her, unless it’s part of a strategy. Absolutely NO POKER TELLS, don’t get cute with it. Men who do best, are those who essentially start running an intel strategy (which is basically dread), so much so many women are like, “what’s up with you? You seem different…aloof, distant?”. THAT MEANS YOU ARE WINNING. “I don’t know honey, just feel like you have a right to be happy, blah blah blah”. So many dudes, operating under… Read more »

newlyaloof
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@enrique, I have been prepping my mind to deal with her bailing out and possibly not seeing my kids much for quite some time. I’ve also prepped for getting all my shit taken in court and her bumping into some dicks. I’m a minimalist, so losing “my” house (the one the bank owns and I slave over each day) wouldn’t be a problem. Losing a 45-year-old vagina wouldn’t be too much of a problem either. I do need to get more action though, so I’ll have to determine how side slices and fear of getting caught and dragged into court… Read more »

Bromeo
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Man, after reading this and having a discussion with a friend over work I got a much better understanding overall of male/female mating strategies and how its effecting the current society. We discussed how, if you look at like a time line spectrum: Male——————Equilibrium (first/old set of books)————–I—-Female The “I” is where we currently are in terms of the female sexual strategy, very close to their biological threshold. At the extreme male end, it would be similar to caveman, tribe era where there is a greater population of alphas and they have harems, the strong survive and conquer. There is… Read more »

Jeremy
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The only such situation that I know of at the moment is a friend who married a woman with 1 child from a father who left her and decided he was gay. So while my friend isn’t exactly the biggest alpha, he’s certainly a step up from what she procreated with before. Frankly, their family is a disaster. The lone child (a boy) from the previous father is absolutely confused about just about everything w.r.t. life and his own place in it. Just about every observer believes he will turn gay or trans at some point, and my friend has… Read more »

J1J2
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Even female baboons and crocodiles are effectively monogamous, and I have seen no situation where a human female was happy being non-monogamous (with the serious stuff), or for that matter any man she was making plans for being non-monogamous. As far as I can see, the main syndromes in operation in women wanting “open” relationships are 1) trying to see what she can get away with in terms of trading up, and 2) avoidancy, which does not co-occur with happiness (not counting temporary self-delusion).

bob bitchin
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All this advice re:divorce preparation really drives home how skewed the matrix is. I have to say that it is inspiring to see guys give a shit enough to help a brother out. I dont live in the states, gwn-‘onscario’, and our divorce laws arent as brutal; no jail for arrears on child support, etc. Having said that, is it possible to establish out of state residency with a view to filing for divorce elsewhere? In B.C., people incorporate in Alberta, rent or buy-changes primary residence;it’s a tax-dodge. Could this be a solution for newlyaloof and others? Anyhow, been lurking… Read more »

newlyaloof
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@Bob, I can relate to what you say here. Women can sense a man that’s a fighter, rebel, etc. That killer instinct goes a long way when everything else is going to shit.

bob bitchin
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Thanks for.the i put newly aloof. While I’m writing.my comments my inner critic is.viewing what I’m saying as juvenile or.pretensious. I’m just looki g for.answers and glad that rollo et al are here. I’ve lurked for a long time and only made.sporadic semi-bitter, somewhat insecure, somewhat boastful posts. I am a.natural of sorts. I can just start.talking.to women and, generally, I get a good response. The.problem is not understanding the.hardware level code of.their program because: I wasn’t taught, society propagandizes, was too distracted.too put the pieces together and make conjectures. In every LTR I’ve just ended up confused as to… Read more »

bob bitchin
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All the talk of divorce jarred my memory. The following is a true story. Every word. I met a woman in a university course in the 90’s. Mid-twenties, blonde, great figure. I don’t go for.blondes but I made an exception for her. Her story: her Mom was a wasp who married some jewish beta bucks who’d made a wack of cash in retail-owned several stores. I’m not sure if ‘Debbie’ was his daughter or step-daughter. Instict says the former. Debbie was nutz. Her step-dad ‘knew’ people. She had a daughter with some guy but wanted out. Step-dad gets her a… Read more »

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Tooting my own horn, I’ve always had a great outlook on life and had a good personality. I genuinely have empathy for people, and it’s shown throughout my life with most all people I meet feeling like they can tell me anything and I won’t judge them. 99% of people that meet me love me. Anyhow, my wife’s aunt is real close to me and our kids, and last year, I made her aware of some of the problems my wife and I were having because at that point I didn’t give a F about getting divorced and losing the… Read more »

Dutchman
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@bob

faaaaaaaaaaaaaaack

Pellaeon
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I’m looking forward to seeing YaReally’s thoughts on this post, particular in how the pLTR differs from an open relationship. Personally, the idea of something a little deeper than just “another plate” appeals to me, but I also get that this may just be the product of a lack of experience (and perhaps I just misunderstand what “plate” means). To me though, it seems like a lot of guys are in denial of just how much they want to bond emotionally with a chick. As Rollo says, men are the true Romantics They go on and on for a long… Read more »

Chump No More
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@newlyaloof Applying pressure indirectly via family feels a whole lot like ‘negotiating desire by proxy’. You *might* see short-term gains or it *may* act as a buffer until you build true desire back by becoming a high SMV man with options, but it’s not a long-term strategy that will get you ultimately what you want. That said, 8 years is a metric shit-tonne of negative momentum to overcome. If you were a man with options, firmly in his frame and an abundance mindset, would you be putting up with this bullshit?!? Instead of trying to ‘win her back’, your plan… Read more »

redlight
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@aloof Could you define your best outcomes? @pellaeon What are your thoughts? Should I be open to a monogamous relationship (if the opportunity presents itself, it hasn’t really yet) just to get my feet wet? A young musician asked me if his second album should be a three disc set like the Weeknd’s trilogy or a visual album like Beyoncé’s 2013 release. I asked what his first album was like and he said he didn’t have one, and it turns out he has never put a song on iTunes or YouTube. Your friend sounds like a mix of Angry Beta… Read more »

Jeremy
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@newlyaloof …where I confide in her mother and her aunt and basically tell them that I’ve tried to work things out, I’ve put up with living in separate rooms for 8 years, I’ve put up with her losing her fire for me and basically abandoning me emotionally all this time, but I still want to work things out. But my wife simply doesn’t act like she cares any longer. I basically want to confide in them about how upset I am, and then “RELUCTANTLY” tell them some of the F’d up shit she’s done… Never appeal to the feminine for… Read more »

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