There are many attitudinal and subtle behavior traits that manifest in men who are presented with options or enjoy even casual social proof. I’m not sure a lot of guys really realize just how sensitive women are to those ‘tells’. You will do things, say things, without thinking about them that indicate on a limbic level what you believe about yourself. Women have evolved to perceive the smallest cues and subtlest of hints – to the point it’s a subconscious subroutine running in their background processing of information about you when they’re not even cognitively aware of it.
They may not be able to consciously put a finger on it, but on some level of consciousness these tells are informing a woman’s limbic understanding of your SMV.
I’ve gone back and forth about covert communications vs. overt communications on this blog over the years. There is a certain school of Game that teaches a bold, direct action wherein a guy overtly inserts himself into that woman’s immediate experience and I can certainly see the merits of it.
Law 28
Enter into action with boldnessIf you are unsure of a course of action, do not attempt it. Your doubts and hesitations will infect your execution. Timidity is dangerous: better to enter with boldness. Any mistakes you commit through audacity are easily corrected with more audacity. Everyone admires the bold; no one honors the timid.
There is a certain gravitas that accompanies an extroverted approach with women, the trick is not coming off as a ‘try hard’ and overplaying it, thereby overtly confirming your following a script. When you don’t believe it’s you it’s a pretty good bet she doesn’t either.
A lot of proponents of this in-your-face approach will tell you it’s the only way a “real” man should interact with women; boldly and confidently, and entirely on his terms. And while I agree with this, how you go about effecting that can vary depending on context and condition.
When a guy is initially establishing Frame and drawing the woman (women) of his choosing into his reality, that overt, direct approach can be the deciding factor for a woman’s acquiescing to his Frame. Caught up in the moment (such as an ‘insta-date’ or an encounter she wasn’t expecting) and charging her with an immediate rush of endorphins, a woman’s Hypergamous filtering process gets overridden by that excitement. This is the same principle operating behind planning dates with an excitement factor involved (rock climbing, sky diving, are both exaggerations, but you get the idea) – an emotional attachment paired with an endorphin rush associates that ‘feeling’ with you.
There’s a tendency I think for Red Pill aware men to view women’s Hypergamous / Solipsistic natures as hinderances to men effecting their own interests with them. Shit tests, filtering, sexual prospect comparison and a whole host of other conscious and subconscious vetting inherent to women seems like an insufferable waste of effort for men. However, while Hypergamy may define the rules of the game it’s important for men to understand how to work it to their advantage in both a direct approach and in understanding the subtle filtering that women do.
I’ve read more than a few ‘dating gurus’ define this “being direct with her” approach as the only legitimate form of Game. A Real Man® sees what he wants and goes out and boldly gets it. The problem is that this attitude gets tied to The Male Catch 22 and any derivation is compared with unmanliness.
As I said, while I agree there’s merit to this directness, it shouldn’t be done at the cost of understanding how women subconsciously vet and filter to better discern a man’s (perceptively) true sexual market value to her – as well as how she contrasts his SMV to her self-perceived SMV. There is nothing “unmanly” about having a curiosity for how the female mind works and then using that understanding to your advantage.
Maintaining Frame
It’s one thing to draw that woman into your reality and your psychological Frame, it’s another to maintain this Frame once she’s stepped into it.
I went into some of the subtle ‘tells’ about a man’s SMV in Alpha Tells and Beta Tells and the subcommunication messaging that transfers between men and women. In these posts I described the process beneath those tells and what’s being communicated in them. One thing I believe even Red Pill aware men subscribe to is the idea that their Frame can only be maintained by the same overt and bluntly direct means that helped them create it.
This is the root of men’s initial anxiety of having to upkeep their Red Pill “act”; “Red Pill is impossible to float all the time! What? Am I expected to Game my LTR forever?” The answer of course is internalizing Red Pill awareness into one’s personality, but one thing that also goes along with that is the manifesting of behaviors that help maintain your Frame.
Women pick up on behavioral cues, attitude, how things affect you, how you apply yourself to a task, how you deal with adversity and certainly the interplay you engage in with her while playing with her. If you’re thinking that women wanting men who Just Get It is all direct Game and all above board you need to reconsider that quite a bit of women’s filtering occurs when you’re not ‘on‘ and she’s casually picking up on your behavioral cues.
She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.
Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.
Much of a woman’s vetting process takes place in her hindbrain. It’s very easy for most guys in western(ized) culture to presume that hot, but vapid, women are too oblivious to really pay much attention to this process. Lost in their hedonism and self-affirmations it’s easy to believe that those processes aren’t as influential in hook-ups as they might be in a long term arrangement, but trust that even though they might be under the surface they are being processed.
Mindset
It’s a Tomassi Maxim now, but bears repeating; Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic. I’ve explained what I mean by this on many occasions, but when it comes to what I consider the abstraction that is Alpha it can primarily be reduced to a particular mindset of masculine dominance and confidence.
I wont belabor this here again, but suffice to say that while I believe there is a natural component to it, I do think that to varying degrees this Alpha mindset, or something approaching it, is a learnable state for men. That said, I also think men need to use caution when when evaluating how to go about cultivating and internalizing this mindset.
It’s very easy to get caught up in the hope for a magic solution to your problems in life. There’s no shortage of motivational speakers and charismatic ‘self-help’ gurus ready to sell you a book, or a sermon, or some self-styled social movement promising to show you how to develop this “winners’ mindset”. It’s important to bear in mind that any mindset you learn is only as legitimate as the realities that inform it.
A lot of hate directed at PUAs, motivational speakers, pastors or even your parents can be traced back to their failings in understanding simple evidential realities. Their hopeful formulas for your success end up being frustrations and anxieties when they’ve proven to fail you because you invest yourself in part, or in whole, in them.
Much of what constitutes Blue Pill conditioning is founded in the same misgivings. It’s very easy to hype up and sensationalize Blue Pill idealisms in ‘optimism’ soaked rhetorics, but these hopes are easily dispelled with a Red Pill aware lens. That’s one reason the Red Pill can be bitter – it’s a real buzz kill when you’re high on Blue Pill optimism.
The primary reason I’ve always been reluctant to be prescriptive with Red Pill awareness in practice is because I’ve always believed that the Red Pill is never going to be one size fits all. While Red Pill truths are universal, their application is subjective to the man employing them. How he develops the mindset that best serves him is contextual to his own circumstance.
That said, I think a pragmatic approach based on Red Pill awareness and the fundaments that make it up would serve men best in developing a Red Pill mindset that works for him. You might think that in light of my recent Purple Pill post that I’m alluding to the ‘coaches’ and re-definers of the Red Pill in all this, but lots of “Red Pill” men are actually Purple Pill hoping that some of the old rules might still apply.
While I emphatically recognize the power of positive thought in altering one’s mindset and changing the course of one’s life, I also understand that zeal for change needs to be tempered with a healthy skepticism. If you find yourself being swept up in a tide of super-optimism that’s the time to question the foundations of it. Positive, motivational memes can become clichéd aphorisms when those foundations are proven to be false.
Optimism and pessimism are both bullshit. Sugar-coating the world and the way it is will not make it sweeter. Alternatively, hating everything and being bitter about life cannot be a worldview that will last forever. Instead of being optimistic (or pessimistic), seek truth. The truth may not make you happier, per se, but it can make you stronger, will provide you with more substance, and will alleviate much needless suffering in your life.
@davidmilton20 sometimes I think you guys get off on your comments.
optimism is key. “Choosing” to be positive about life is key.
Confident optimism can create its own reality.
See: Assume the sale
Assess the current self with realism, view its future with optimism.
Always assess the world around you with realism. Always.
Uh oh, here comes Rhonda Byrne’s henchmen… “As long as I think happy thoughts then everything in life will be great!” No, it won’t. Setting goals and achieving them (becoming greater than you currently are) requires both optimism and pessimism. Hope and despair. Love and hate. We all have a wide spectrum of psychological tools available to us including being optimistic and pessimistic. But if we suppress either one, then we are bound to make many unnecessary mistakes.
@davidmilton20 …..no idea who Rhonda is.
I was going to respond with something witty. But you may continue your mental masturbation alone.
Doesn’t sound very optimistic of you… Thanks for proving my point.
Imagination…
Nice work calling out the direct and uncompromising approach that is overwhelmingly touted as the only way to get women. I think too many guys new to the red pill tend to take this to heart, as I did, and end up being too much of the aloof asshole, which can inhibit success with women. As in all things, social calibration is key, and there is a time for soft approach as well.
Long time lurker, first time commenter (mostly of Yareally’s archive so apologies if I’m doing this wrong)… Walk into bar late to grab dinner. Sit at one end of bar alone by myself. As my food is coming two girls come and sit down at empty stools that are one away from me, and are just talking to one another. I’m watching television and watching them out of the corner of my eye. As I’m finishing up the meal I see them taking turns pulling each other’s hair. I try to make eye contact to ask them why they were… Read more »
The mistake proponents of the indirect approach make is the same one Mark Manson made in his book models: The faulty premise is on page 24 of that book: “The paradox is that if a high status man pursues a woman he makes himself low status and therefore unattractive.” The whole book was page after page of trying to work out of this apparent paradox by redefining words like “True Confidence” and “Vulnerability”. Which of course confused everybody and he had to write new articles explaining what he meant. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the complementarity of the sexes. The… Read more »
@Rollo (or anyone else): it is clear you don’t want to be prescriptive with specific advice (and why you don’t), but I still have to ask… Beyond the starting advice of lift and read, what other generic actions can someone take to establish their own Frame? I mentioned before my difficulty with having an abundance mentality, but being married and not cheating I’m a bit stuck on how to improve this aspect. Doesn’t help that I also don’t like going to clubs and bars because of the loud music and weird lighting. I’ve been wondering about attending one of the… Read more »
Also relevant:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/23/the-burden-of-performance/
http://therationalmale.com/2013/07/18/crisis-of-motive/
Pursuing falls under your burden of performance.
http://freedompowerandwealth.com
Optimism is great and necessary. But as you say it also takes a healthy dose of pessimism. Taking the Red Pill leads to both a basic optimism without neglecting the pessimistic side too.
@IAS, Are you keeping the vows you made in a blue pill marriage while your wife dumped all her vows in the trash on the way out of the wedding reception? I ask, because that is what happened to me. Vows need to be kept by both parties. If she is breaking hers, why not break yours? Even if you never go through with it, you need to inject some serious dread game into your situation. Also give my question above a lot of thought. That alone will help you reestablish frame you probably never had to begin with. Remember,… Read more »
@IAS
As an afterthought, think about your one sided vows. Give yourself permission to cheat. Now you have to decide if you are actually going to do it, but at least give yourself permission to cheat. You’ve just recaptured a bit of frame.
@ITTO: I don’t think that is an accurate representation of my situation. My wife hasn’t cheated, is not misbehaving beyond constantly shit testing me (which some may even argue isn’t misbehaving), and she doesn’t seem to have genuine desire. On my side, I’m getting stronger and better at identifying and handling shit tests. I think before jumping into the conclusion that there is a serious issue with her, it is wise to increase my SMV and up the dread slowly before taking a more drastic approach. If the marriage gradually improves, great. If not and I conclude I’m not sufficiently… Read more »
There must be a limit to this: consider, I am sure you are all familiar with the fictional character Austin Powers, so I need say little than to observe his ridiculous clothing, absurd language, ugliness, lack of stature and his unshakable view that he is God’s gift to the opposite sex. We laugh at him. The joke is, that in real life, he would have zero success with women. The people I know who seem to have women falling over themselves fore them are self-effacing – even shy. How do I do: yesterday I got into conversation with a girl… Read more »
@stingerbell November 25th, 2015 at 3:21 am “I tell them about how I was just in [major international city] during recent terrorist attacks. Tell them story about being super close to the terrorist attacks. This was supposed to be DHV but they start talking about 9/11, and the convo slips into comfort before I really can qualify them. We compare US citizens’ reactions to [people from country I was just in] reactions of terrorist attacks. It was interesting way to build comfort that I’m not really used to. They were moved by the story and started touching me in a… Read more »
“There’s a tendency I think for Red Pill aware men to view women’s Hypergamous / Solipsistic natures as hinderances to men effecting their own interests with them.” And how dare the universe not revolve around making sure I win. “…no idea who Rhonda is.” It’s a Secret. The meta-secret is that The Secret is chic crack mystical bullshit straight out of 19th century spiritualism. Woooooo! “After many years of practice, I’m sure it looked like Beethoven wasn’t trying when he played piano.” When people say to me, “He makes it look easy,” I respond, “That’s because for him it is.… Read more »
@IAS Become a student of shit testing. Study up and get good at identifying and parrying the shit tests. She is shit testing you because you are not good enough. So get better through masculine self improvement. Always, always react unemotionally to shit test, however you can. Here are two additional resources: http://illimitablemen.com/2014/04/18/she-will-try-to-make-you-weak/ And instead of me linking, type “shit test reddit” into a Google search engine. Also the end of “Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man” by Joseph W. South includes this snippet at the end of the book: Warning! women will test you, and test you hard.… Read more »
@ Milton
Keep aware of your strengths to promote confidence. Be aware of your weaknesses when you are devising a plan to minimize their impact. Keep aware of your plans.
A positive attitude is important for confidence and success. Otoh, a Pollyanna attitude can be deleterious to success.
@KFG “When people say to me, “He makes it look easy,” I respond, “That’s because for him it is. If you want to insult me, tell me I’m “talented.” I am not talented, I am skilled, because I fucking worked for it. Yeah, I resonate with that feeling too. But you still are better to employ Law #30. Law 30 Make your Accomplishments Seem Effortless Your actions must seem natural and executed with ease. All the toil and practice that go into them, and also all the clever tricks, must be concealed. When you act, act effortlessly, as if you… Read more »
“But you still are better to employ Law #30.”
It is not either/or.
“Teach no one your tricks or they will be used against you.”
I earn some of my living by teaching people everything they know, but not everything I know.
The key is just focus on yourself, set new goals on self and financial improvement, then the women will come to you. Case in point, I have a friend, 49, who lost his right arm at the elbow and right leg above the knee, he has women actively pursuing him all the time….Why? He’s a charismatic motivational speaker, drives an M5 BMW and has a large home right on the water. I’ve seen him give speeches that bring women to tears, then they line up to meet him….He got where he is by deciding not to let anything get in… Read more »
@ SJF She is shit testing you because you are not good enough Actually, Heartiste recently ran an article about greater betas and lesser alphas getting hit with the most shit tests. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/11/17/which-men-do-girls-shit-test-the-most/ I distinguish between attraction shit tests and relationship shit tests. Attraction shit tests are about whether a broad wants to have sex, while relationship shit tests are about whether a broad wants to break up with you wants to have sex with you will submit to you. (Wow, I just figured out what they mean!) Mrs. Gamer will hit me with three or four shit tests in… Read more »
“Women pick up on behavioral cues, attitude, how things affect you, how you apply yourself to a task, how you deal with adversity and certainly the interplay you engage in with her while playing with her … Much of a woman’s vetting process takes place in her hindbrain.”
Yep. And most women (and men) don’t understand that their female emotional weather storms are almost always reactions to that subconscious processing.
@Asdgamer
Nice cite.
I’m a dyed-in-the-wool greater beta/lesser alpha SKILLFUL STRIVER. My wife is a just over the top 20% border cutie. And the relationship shit tests about whether she
wants to break up with me, wants to have sex with mewill submit to me flow like the Niagara falls. I don’t wish it were easier, I strive to be better.Rollo,
Another excellent piece.
And while you arent one for giving prescriptive advice, I think there is a both a need and a market for it. If you’re ever in Manhattan for one of your liquor events and have a few minutes, would love to chat over coffee or a drink.
@SJF: thanks, I’m on MRP reddit as well and making my way through their “sidebar” recommendations, I also started tracking her cycle rigorously. About the birth control pill, lowered libido is one of the side-effects but stated as very small % of women that get that side-effect. Interestingly, she often blames the pill for her “low libido” but I’m not sure if she really does have a point or if it is just shifting the blame and she will be high libido regardless of the pill when my SMV and dread level is higher. In any case, a couple of… Read more »
Boldness is also a mindset. The same boldness you adopt when you approach a new girl…..is just as easily desperation when you re-initiate contact with an ex…In the first case you’re doing so from a position of strength…in the second you’re doing so from a position of weakness.
It took me a while to get this concept into my head. I would fool myself into thinking I should approach girls or my ex just because doing so was “bold”.
If you don’t get IOI’s…even a bold move is self-deluding..
@walawala
“If you don’t get IOI’s…even a bold move is self-deluding..”
If you wait for IOI’s you won’t be able to be the chooser. I honestly don’t believe you can completely enter a buyers frame while depending on them.
[…] Men often hate and fear shit tests. Rollo Tomassi mentions this in his post Attitude Sells: […]
Interestingly, she often blames the pill for her “low libido” but I’m not sure if she really does have a point or if it is just shifting the blame and she will be high libido regardless of the pill when my SMV and dread level is higher. The pill modulates the spikes. It prevents that DTF extra emotional surge from hormones at ovulation . An ovulatory surge is your friend. It is real and it is spectacular. Her stating she has low libido is an excuse. Some women are high libido in general and some are low libido in general.… Read more »
@ Joker
The masculine pursues and takes action, the feminine allures and is receptive.
Both sexes allure and both pursue. Men allure by demonstrating high value and women allure with physical beauty.
Look at squirrels. Is it only the male who pursues, or do they take turns? The key is that the male dominates when the female shit tests him.
See my post about Sexual Macrodynamics for more info about sexual roles and mating dynamics.
https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/sexual-macrodynamics/
@ SJF
Nice cite.
I’m a dyed-in-the-wool greater beta/lesser alpha SKILLFUL STRIVER.
You are my muse. I just wrote a post about Submission Shit Tests inspired by your comment. One of my best, I think.
https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2015/11/25/submission-shit-tests/
@ walawala
If you don’t get IOI’s…even a bold move is self-deluding.
Obviously, with a cold approach, you don’t necessarily wait for IOIs. From an ex, sure. Shiv test her before moving on her, though, to make sure her IOIs aren’t just a ruse to get your attention.
@SJF They were both HB6. You are correct that I was referring to them in their numeric order. Regarding breadcrumbs. I think I get the point and am pretty decent at doing it. They’ll ask what I was in [city name] for and I’ll say half work half pleasure, which many women follow up with asking what I do. Or I’ll mention that I was at dinner with coworkers (instead of using the word friends) and continue telling some other story but using the word coworkers as crumb for them to ask what I do. This usually has two benefits:… Read more »
Don’t blind yourself in optimism and don’t down yourself in pessimism. Moderation is key.
@the ronin
He got where he is by deciding not to let anything get in his way, including women and focused on his recovery after the accident that cost him his arm, leg and his marriage.
what, women will bail on you after an accident?
“She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant.” I’m wondering. Is there a version of this that applies to alpha mindset guys.. that they want their women to ‘just get it’ and will lose interest/drop the girl/even cheat if the girl doesn’t change her ways? Or is it irrelevant because an alpha mindset guy will demand what he desires and if not complied… Read more »
@M3, I’m wondering. Is there a version of this that applies to alpha mindset guys.. that they want their women to ‘just get it’ and will lose interest/drop the girl/even cheat if the girl doesn’t change her ways? Yes, but I think it would be more about an Alpha indifference to a woman’s performance being informed by his capacity to simply attract / arouse more potential women. He want’s her to just get it, but if she doesn’t there are 3 other women who do, so the out-selecting is baked into the dynamic. Less thought is likely given to the… Read more »
I think that red pill is quite optimistic, provided man fully digests it. Blue pill, men think that they have to perform, provide, show off just to be worthy of women. Soul mates, etc. Not an easy way to live.
Guy that has fully internalized red pill? It robs women of their power. Take yeareally as an example.
For him women are…game. They are for enjoyment. No heavy stuff. Go fucking out there, socialize, communicate, manipulate….ENJOY.
“Is there a version of this that applies to alpha mindset guys.. that they want their women to ‘just get it’ . . .”
Next!
@ asd Our mating patterns don’t even match primates, never mind squirrels. Trying to shoehorn human mating patterns to fit squirrels isn’t a useful model. The masculine pursues *more*, the feminine allures *more*. I assume it’s understood here that a generalization doesn’t imply 100%. And yes, you’re right, the pursuit and attraction does take different forms, that’s a great point. A woman placing herself in proximity and attempting to catch the eye of a man is engaging in a form of pursuit (although arguably that’s a form of being alluring). However, the man walking over and starting a conversation (and… Read more »
“This is the root of men’s initial anxiety of having to upkeep their Red Pill “act”; “Red Pill is impossible to float all the time! What? Am I expected to Game my LTR forever?” The answer of course is internalizing Red Pill awareness into one’s personality” This used to scare me, thinking that i’d have to become a circus clown for life. But as i took more pride in my changes over time from where i first started, and the more confident and comfortable i became – most of my ‘game’ feels like second nature. I don’t even consciously think… Read more »
@Rollo As you said, the Red Pill is never “one size fits all”. I came across Game before I learned about the Red Pill. For me, Game wasn’t about trying to pick up hot chicks, but about improving myself, and improving my relationships with women as a result. When I first started learning about Game, I wasn’t sure that I could do it, or even sure if I wanted to. But I kept reading, and tried to put some things into practice as they related to the circumstances in my life at that time. As I made some progress, I… Read more »
@ M3
And it’s at that point when women who say ‘just be yourself’ actually counts.
In a Zen sense, this is always true. The problem is the Blue Pill confusion sometimes prevents us men from knowing who we are.
@ M3
I’m wondering. Is there a version of this that applies to alpha mindset guys.. that they want their women to ‘just get it’ and will lose interest/drop the girl/even cheat if the girl doesn’t change her ways?
I’ve been thinking about this lately. Funny you ask. It’s the Shiv Test, which I mentioned in my latest post. It’s related to Compliance Tests, which test for attraction and submission. The Shiv Test tests for submission and femininity, by implication, by means of telling a woman to change her behavior.
Rollo, I’m in the beginning stages of conceptualizing a documentary on the current state and history of gender dynamics. I would like to possibly interview you and talk on this subject. Would you please contact me via email?
@Z, leave me your email address in this thread:
http://therationalmale.com/about/
@Asdgamer I just wrote a post about Submission Shit Tests inspired by your comment. One of my best, I think. https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2015/11/25/submission-shit-tests/ Nice. Sorry about my intermediate-level musery. You could use a lot more paragraphs in that blog post. Curious, the woman commenter asking about what a shit test, one of those things lay people have trouble defining but know it when they see it. When I read Deida’s The Way of the Superior Man over ten years ago I was in denial and anger over the cold, hard reality of my wife’s shit testing. And so I buried the concept… Read more »
The Red Pill triggers an emotional response which can be defined by the 5 stages proposed by the Kubler-Ross model: 1 – Denial 2 – Anger 3 – Bargaining 4 – Depression 5 – Acceptance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model We, former or actual beta males, grew up defining our identities based on a lie, in an idealistic notion of love and women that gave us purpose. That idea has been exposed here many times and I can’t agree more. Then for some reason we all took the RP and our world fell apart, we didn’t have any purpose in life anymore. Some tried… Read more »
@Xabi:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/25/the-5-stages-of-unplugging/
Thanks for playing.
; )
OT: Ive just found my favorite form of passive dread for an LTR…keeping a half empty large box of condoms in a bathroom cabinet from before the relationship. Ive never seen a hamster redline so hard
For what it’s worth, I think that hormones and nutrition play a strong role including learned “addictions” to stress hormones or insulin, depending on the complex feedback loops and interactions in each individual body. At the same time, mind-over-matter and self-hypnosis can and does affect biological functioning. Biofeedback is one way of demonstrating that mastery over oneself is possible. A man who is a master of himself is irresistible to women even if he finds that he no longer needs their approval so much.
Xabi- I’m sure the 5-stage grieving model applies to many guys’ acceptance of the Red Pill- but it certainly didn’t go down that way for me. In my case, there wasn’t even a need for an accpetance stage let alone the earlier ones. As soon as I read the earliest expositions of the Red Pill it was much more like an enlightenment experience that resistance or grieving of any kind. My basic reaction was: “Fuck yeah!!! I’ve been lied to all these years, and now I *get* it … ” And I started applying the principals of the Red Pill… Read more »
Heehee, who’s this Kubler-Ross chick? Is she related to Meyers-Briggs? Don’t get me started……..:)
I’ve never bought what some are selling… I can tell you for a fact, as can other men, that women are drawn to certain men, aka ‘if you build it they will come’. Most men in modern-read ‘comfortable’ societies havent experienced the smelter. The smelter is often not of your choosing but often resembles the following: having to fight so as to be left alone, not having lunch money as a kid, going toe to toe against adults when you’re as young as 15, being so calm and confident in your interactions with authority that they treat you with respect,… Read more »
“There is nothing “unmanly” about having a curiosity for how the female mind works and then using that understanding to your advantage.”
Good advice. It’s too bad you guys mostly draw the wrong conclusions, but A+ for trying.
B’yeah, good article Rollo.
“Women pick up on behavioral cues, attitude, how things affect you, how you apply yourself to a task, how you deal with adversity and certainly the interplay you engage in with her while playing with her”
That’s true, at least.
@Emily, go back to Insanity’s echo chamber, your meds are there.
I was in the first 4 stages until i started digesting Rollo’s blog. While it was fun reading Roosh and Heartiste, they didn’t connect the psychological dots like Rollo did. A credit to his form of writing. But even reading Rollo’s stuff i was getting angry, the blue pill still withdrawing from my system like a bad cocaine habit. Everything Rollo wrote made sense, but the anger welled up inside me, the feeling of injustice, the feeling of dealing with a rigged system, the understanding that i lost so much time playing by the ruleset in the ‘old set of… Read more »
@ Xabi
All curt replies aside, a very important tool for one’s understanding while having the bitter taste of the red pill and trying to swallow. Without getting through to Acceptance, a guy can certainly be spinning his wheels. It’s not a solution, it’s a start.
Rollo’s and my curt replies were only because he described it (and attributed it to someone else) and it has been discussed in comments frequently or infrequently. I find it a crucial stumbling block to overcome for guys. It was not meant to cut you short. Well worth discussing.
@SJF, that book changed my life and my marriage! (for the better). David Deida helped me understand that being feminine ≠ being a terrible person and helped my husband understand that trying to use reason and logic to get me to behave the way he wanted me to would only cause both of our heads to eventually explode.
“Good advice. It’s too bad you guys mostly draw the wrong conclusions, but A+ for trying.”
Young, dear Emily, what would be the right conclusions? Tell us. It would be good to practice your philosophical expository skills to write out a couple paragraphs or three here. (Instead of short quick retorts which are somewhat worthless in the discussion. You can do better). What faults do you find in some of the conclusions you are seeing?
Have you been following along with the discussions this past month?
“Go back in time and watch steve macqueen. Total alpha.”
Robert Mitchum was another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrMgZpwKF3k
Cavett: What is the secret of a 30 year marriage?
Mitchum: Deviousness, I should think.
@LeeLee, Did you guys discuss it? Or did he just demonstrate and not hash it out? Did he have any stumbling blocks to Kubler-Ross Acceptance of the ideas in the book? Which one of you read it first? It does become a burden if the husband or LTR partner, lost frame and purpose, for a while, beforehand. Simply because once he loses dominance and frame, the woman doesn’t trust him to ever be back in the saddle. Illimitable Man MAXIM #24: “If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has… Read more »
Either a man knows himself and accepts what he knows or he doesn’t.
Any man who follows someone else’s prescription of what he should think of himself or concerns himself with all this “if this, then that-maybe oh by the way-also but then” bullshit analysis of himself and who he is in the eyes of the world has no hope of respecting himself as long as he follows such sells or concerns himself with such doubts.
Attitude sells, sure, but a good fantasy is better. If you think about interactions as narratives, and that, ontologically, we occur to ourselves as a narrative about ourselves and the world, it becomes clear how crucial framing a narrative is. It defines reality itself. A man “with attitude” could mean many different things. Oftentimes it’s an insecure man who feels inferior and overreacts. Other times it’s someone who is really enthusiastic, other times it’s someone who’s smart and good with words. Sometimes the person is interesting and has other good characteristics, but if one is projecting a narrative and driving… Read more »
@SJF
Sure, later. Have a class.
@LeeLee
Another book you may want to check out: Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla (Pope JPII). There is divinely inspired wisdom in those pages 🙂
@Emily – So when we last spoke, I think we had established that you weren’t a cunt. How’s that going? Are you still just annoying, shallow, pseudo-intellectual and glib? Or have you graduated to full cuntery yet? Let’s see, shall we? Your comment. Please elucidate further for us mere troglodytes. What specifically were you referring to when you wrote “It’s too bad you guys mostly draw the wrong conclusions,” Please, share with us your incredible and searing insights, we are all just absolutely gagging for it. We need your enlightenment, Oh Gifted One, please share you brilliance with us. If… Read more »
@NBTM
Was that a simple non sequitur or were you referring to some premise in particular? (In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion.)
Tom wrote: “In my case, there wasn’t even a need for an accpetance stage let alone the earlier ones. As soon as I read the earliest expositions of the Red Pill it was much more like an enlightenment experience that resistance or grieving of any kind.” Massive enlightenment! But then actually living it and applying it can be VERY challenging. It’s working for me, especially once I learned to be more subtle. Thanksgiving indeed. One can gulp the firehose of truth but one must be very careful in being too brash or enthusiastic with others. Learned the hard way on… Read more »
Over at CH someone had insight re Trump: Boldness + Smarts = Conventional apprehension. Or something like that. Now consider the state of the culture and how sick it is. We have president Butt Naked (that’s the leader of the free world) saying to business owners that you didn’t build that. Okay, maybe he was taken out of context referring to dot gov assistance. No question today that banking and gov are inextricably linked or any industry for that matter. Free market my ass, not since late 1800s. But anyway, at every step of the turn, we live in a… Read more »
Women are like dogs, constantly reading body language: show leadership, they follow, show fear, they bite. One of the best TV shows for men is The Dog Whisperer.
@M3 “I’m wondering. Is there a version of this that applies to alpha mindset guys.. that they want their women to ‘just get it’ and will lose interest/drop the girl/even cheat if the girl doesn’t change her ways? Or is it irrelevant because an alpha mindset guy will demand what he desires and if not complied with – explore his options? Or irrelevant because alpha men typically only allow the most feminine/compatible/complimentary women into their orbit? Or all of the above.” Looks like men here are starting to think about this (this ‘shiv test’ idea is a new one on… Read more »
@Forge – BitchTests, brilliant. I do exactly the same thing. I prod and tease and shame and remonstrate, but playfully. It’s the light touch that does it, and not being really invested in it. Some women just like to submit and your role is to let them. To be a comfortable space for them to curl up in. It also reflects a change in mind set. I’m smarter about all this now, I can tell what a woman is motivated by. I recently smoked out a gold digger, as I shared here, on date 1. They get away with nothing… Read more »
@SJF, I read it first. It was recommended to me as something that would help me in my quest to understand masculinity and femininity more deeply. When I read it, I was like !!!! I’m not crazy, bad, or beyond hope. I’m a GIRL !!!! I had never felt so understood. I gave it to my husband, he read the whole thing in like one or two nights, and I think for him it was a similar sense of relief like finally someone was explaining our relationship in a way that was real and made sense. He didn’t seem to… Read more »
@Stingerbell That’s a good field report overall. And yeah, we usually use the numbers to rate rather than count 😉 Your own assessment of the circumstance seems pretty good. You failed to escalate/sexualize the circumstance so you got put in the chode category lol. Don’t worry, still happens to me all the time. Past that sounds like you’ve got some solid convo dynamics going. Props on going for a girl-couple, a lot of guys would have used that as an excuse ‘they probably don’t even like boys’ sorta thing to not approach. That said, ya likely should try to screen… Read more »
@LeeLee – Great comment, wow. Keeping it to your experience and not being falsely humble, but still not “telling us what’s what”, very rare for a woman here. I went to your blog and it was more of the same. Impressive. I think a lot of women feel similarly disoriented in this “modern” world of the Strong Independent Woman. Reading Deida and seeing you weren’t crazy, it’s interesting to hear how disoriented a woman can be made by this whacked out society. Why the hell are we letting this happen to the world? Who is it working for? Old battle… Read more »
@ LeeLee Got it. ScribblerG’s on point. You let your husband be the oak tree in the emotional storm of your femininity. And he took up the challenge and accepted it (as explained by Deida). Can’t remember Rollo’s reference to Roissy’s Ninth Commandment recently (or in the distant past): IX. Connect with her emotions Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendezvous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses.… Read more »
@ bob The smelter is often not of your choosing but often resembles the following: having to fight so as to be left alone, not having lunch money as a kid, going toe to toe against adults when you’re as young as 15, being so calm and confident in your interactions with authority that they treat you with respect, even awe. The capacity for violence and incredible inner strength. Charles Bronson was like this. Lee van Cleef, too. I went through some of this. I was a military brat and had to fight every time we moved. Eventually I lived… Read more »
@SJF – I was thinking about that quote from Roissy when I wrote my comment above, but couldn’t remember where it was from. There is a natural give and take and play that women just slip into when a man does this the right way. It’s very natural and easy to do when your frame of mind is right.
Why the hell are we letting this happen to the world? Who is it working for? Old battle axe feminists? Young ones? Ask yourself, how many radfems/social justice warrior types do you know who are even happy? Apparently, the happiness of women has declined these past few decades. The function appears to mirror that of an addict: I enjoyed this surge of power, I do not realize or do not accept the damage it does to me, I get power again but it doesn’t make me happy, I must have more power, on and on the cycle goes. Men are… Read more »
Attitude definitely sells:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHHpjjKzZTU
Other guys are better looking, bigger, taller, more jacked, whiter, richer, with nicer suits (especially when he started out VS now that he’s loaded) etc than this guy…so why do girls buy him $50,000 watches?
What is he offering that those other guys aren’t? It’s clearly not external.
Never been in a real fight in my life. Most of the guys who talk about what hardened badasses they are (and hate me and tell me how much they’d kick my ass when I assholishly dismiss that stuff like I’m doing in this comment lol and then tell me about how they totally growled at this one girl (inevitably a 6 who approached them) after their last mountain climbing expedition and she spread her pussy on the bar for them) choke when you put their personal 9-10 in a bar in front of them staring them down with a… Read more »
“Can’t remember Rollo’s reference to Roissy’s Ninth Commandment recently (or in the distant past)” “I was thinking about that quote from Roissy when I wrote my comment above, but couldn’t remember where it was from.” It was from Chateau Heartiste, Roissy’s 16 Commandments of Poon. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/ What I was trying to and now recall was Rollo citing Commandments II, V, and VII in the essay Relationship Game. That essay lends credence to my assertion that single man, married man, STR, intermediate term, and LTR Game principles are fungible (otherwise known as “why YaReally really matters”). Rollo applied these several of… Read more »
@ YaReally
After a half bottle of Port…older broads are harder to game…this is well-recognized in the manosphere…practice on older broads…younger broads are easier to game and you will get much success with younger broads after practicing on older broads…older broads will game you…be prepared to practice defense…they will try to get their claws into your emotions…fucking old witches…what can you do but laugh at yourself?
@YaReally, “It’s important to bear in mind that any mindset you learn is only as legitimate as the realities that inform it.” That statement was more meant that if you get hyped up by PUA stuff that YaReally talks about and yet you haven’t put in the time to have mastery of PUA or an an unskilled artist at it, then you have to be realistic about your prospects. If you haven’t put in the time, learned the craft, approached lots of women or actually been with a lot of women then you are just winging it and your mileage… Read more »
@ YaReally I assholishly dismiss that stuff like I’m doing in this comment lol and then tell me about how they totally growled at this one girl (inevitably a 6 who approached them) after their last mountain climbing expedition and she spread her pussy on the bar for them) choke when you put their personal 9-10 in a bar in front of them staring them down with a cute little girly smile. That ain’t me, buddy, lol. Got in plenty of fights as a kid and one or two as a college student. Never been afraid to approach a broad… Read more »
Hey, Emily, are you still cock-teasing that poor beta man you used to sleep with? Is that what your Pope taught women should do? Because you don’t seem loving, and it is clear you have no idea what the word “responsible” actually means.
Write back if you get a clue, girl.
Props on going for a girl-couple, a lot of guys would have used that as an excuse ‘they probably don’t even like boys’ sorta thing to not approach.
A lesbian is a woman who prefers to have sex with other women.
As the book “What Do Women Want” by Danier Bergner, ‘My Secret Garden” by Nancy Friday and some others make clear, the words that really matter in that definition … are the first 5.
“That said, I think a pragmatic approach based on Red Pill awareness and the fundaments that make it up would serve men best in developing a Red Pill mindset that works for him.”
And this is the crux right here…
The journey of the red pill is to know one’s self and internalise their own value to the point where it’s not about dodging bullets…its simply reaching a point where they are just not having to…
@theasdgamer “After a half bottle of Port…older broads are harder to game…this is well-recognized in the manosphere…practice on older broads…younger broads are easier to game and you will get much success with younger broads after practicing on older broads…older broads will game you…be prepared to practice defense…they will try to get their claws into your emotions…fucking old witches…what can you do but laugh at yourself?” lol wut? Older chicks are WAY easier. They’re desperate and lonely lol I wouldn’t want to date them, they’re probably harder to date, but pulling them is easy. Half the time their friends will cheer… Read more »
@Rollo – Very, very well written. You cover some very important concepts in this post. “Women have evolved to perceive the smallest cues and subtlest of hints – to the point it’s a subconscious subroutine running in their background processing of information about you when they’re not even cognitively aware of it.” This is the double-edged sword. Just as they are hyperaware and hypervigilant to social cues, they are also hypervulnerable and hyperdistractable with a genuine approach of subtlety. It is akin to performing microsurgery. Carelessness in operation is magnified. “It’s very easy to get caught up in the hope… Read more »
@forgethesky I should definitely clarify: They were not actually lesbians even though they kissed each other in front of me. It was a pretty big shit-test / troll to see how I would react. They were definitely the feminist, “I don’t need a man, but when I’m fucking random dudes I’m the one using THEM for their dicks” types. The first girl was definitely giving me the eyes when I was grabbing their hair right after they made out with each other. The more I thought about this today, the more I realized that there were even more huge IOIs… Read more »
@scribblerg, thank you! I consider introspective writing to be my main gift so it means a lot to be affirmed in that.
@SJF, for sure. Even though CH has a darker world view than I can personally sign on to, he also has amazing wisdom on the feminine experience.
LeeLee
When I read it, I was like !!!! I’m not crazy, bad, or beyond hope. I’m a GIRL !!!!
Amazing how good it feels to shovel that 2nd stage feminist “men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies” junk out of your head, isn’t it? I don’t buy everything Deida writes, mind you, but he was far more in touch with reality back when he wrote that book than any of the blank-slate, equalitarian, get-in-line feminists or their White Knight enablers.
Be a girl and have fun with it!
@ YaReally
lol wut? Older chicks are WAY easier. They’re desperate and lonely
Ya, sex with them is easy if they have younger competition and often they know their own version of game to corral some half-alpha chode.
If you’re in a venue where there’s no younger competition, then older broads can be a bitch to game.
“If you’re in a venue where there’s no younger competition, then older broads can be a bitch to game.”
Time for a different venue lol It’s probably hard to game pigs in a pigpen too 😀
@ YaReally In some venues, some broad nearing 60 who’s still trim and around a HB6 (top 0.1 % of her age) and the hottest broad in the place will have chodes panting after her. So you change venues. The same broad won’t get any attention from top men when she’s competing with 20-something HB7s. However, because she expects to get attention from the top men, she will still be hard to game. That broad will revert to the venue where she got a lot of attention from top men. Younger HB6s and HB7s are easier to game than older… Read more »
I have noticed that sometimes there are such vast differences in my behavioural output in my initial interactions with women I have approached that are so divorced from my actual emotional state, that I have to consider some form of subconscious action in play. When I approach some women I “beta out”. It’s not that I feel particularly intimidated by this woman, but it seems like a part of me it screening myself out for her, through no intention of my own. Other times, I pull off an effortless interaction so flawlessly, and engage a woman’s attraction parameters so thoroughly,… Read more »
“I don’t buy everything Deida writes, mind you, but he was far more in touch with reality back when he wrote that book…….” Even though Deida has a brighter, syrupy, mystical world view than I can personally sign on to, he also has amazing wisdom on the masculine and the feminine hind and middle brain. It’s his estimation of the fore-brain that is exactly what Rollo is cautioning about when he says: “It’s important to bear in mind that any mindset you learn is only as legitimate as the realities that inform it.” I can see someone subscribing to all… Read more »
“It leads me to conclude that there is some subconscious selection going on, both sides of the fence and that there is a reason why some approaches go better than others.”
The old hind-brain and limbic system (middle brain) over riding the fore-brain trick? Who would have thunk?
Agree with Rollo’s post about frame and have for awhile. One of the biggest things for people to learn when taking the Red Pill is how important it is to set and maintain frame. It was something that I had never even heard of before … and wow what a game changer … as I found out last Sunday. And have to say that I’m getting way better at it; practice with escorts … with shit on the line … it all counts and of course, practice makes perfect. So last Sunday I got together with a new SB. I… Read more »
” . . . Deida has a brighter, syrupy, mystical world view than I can personally sign on to . . .”
I read a few paragraphs of the book’s website and felt like someone was gagging me with a syphilitic spoon. Deida is a New Age woman. I can see why Lee Lee would like it and finally be free to feel like girl after reading it. He writes for girls.
But if he sets some people on the correct path, even if they’re girls, well, I guess.