“If I’m not going to have children, she told herself, then I’m going to have lovers.” – Robin Rinaldi, The Wild Oats Project.
In last week’s essay I put an emphasis on men’s understanding women’s rudimentary doubt of their Hypergamous choices with regards to rearing children and the overall health of a family. There are a great many social factors in our westernized feminine-centric social structure that encourages women to delay both marriage and becoming a mother well past their prime fertility windows.
In the Myth of the Biological Clock I detailed the misconceptions women hold with have with regard to their own capacity of having children later in life:
Popular culture likes to teach women and, by association, unenlightened men that there is an innate biological clock inside each woman that slowly ticks down to a magical period where her maternal instincts at long last predispose her to wanting a child. Perhaps, not so surprisingly, this coincides perfectly with the Myth of Women’s Sexual Peak as well as conveniently being the age demographic just post or just prior to when most women hit the Wall.
[…]I wont argue that women actually possess maternal instincts, I will argue that their understanding of when they manifest has been deliberately distorted by a feminine-centric cultural influence. If women are “angry” about the revelation their inability or difficulty to conceive in their post-Wall biological conditions presents, their anger is misdirected. Rather than come down from the heady pedestal of ego-invested female empowerment psychology, they’ll blame men for not being suitable fathers, or lacking a will to “play-by-the rules” and satisfy the dictates of the feminine imperative by whiling away their time in porn and video game induced comas.
The “have it all” mentality popularized by feminism has led to some very bad social effects for women on whole. While a great deal of “having it all” is couched in messaging that appeals to enabling ’empowered®’ women get a similar deal from career life that men are supposedly enjoying, the subtext in this message is one of never settling for a less than Hypergamously optimal (better than, not equal) monogamous pairing with a man.
The “have it all” advertising is about life fulfillment from a distractingly equalist perspective; meaning an ostensibly equitable or better fulfillment than the Feminine Imperative would have women expect that men are getting from life. Women want to be men. Thus the push for female college enrollment that imbalances men’s enrollment, etc., but in so doing the life course women are directed to by the imperative also limits their Hypergamous optimization efforts by putting unrealistic expectations upon it.
As a result women either delay childbearing until ages that put them and any offspring at a health risk, or they simply forego marriage altogether and birth a child with the foreknowledge that the father (though maybe an adequate provisioner) will never be a contender to quell her doubts of his Hypergamous suitability.
If Momma Aint Happy, Aint Nobody Happy
I’m fleshing out this aspect of Hypergamy here because I believe, as with all thing female, that a broad understanding of Hypergamy is essential to a man’s life and has far reaching effects that go beyond just learning Game well enough to get the lay on a Saturday night when a woman is in her ovulatory peak phase.
A byproduct of the societal embrace of Open Hypergamy is the degree to which women are largely disposed to delaying commitment until what I call their Epiphany Phase and then transitioning into a need for security once their capacity to attract and arouse men decays and/or is compromised by intrasexual competition (a.k.a. The Wall). I detail this child-birth postponement process in Preventive Medicine where I outline women’s Party Years through their Epiphany Phase, however it’s important for men to understand that this phase is largely the result of women believing they should have a similar window as a man in which they can have both a career and find the “right guy” to partner in parenting with.
Equalism’s fundamental flaw is rooted in the belief that men and women are both rational and functional equals, separated only by social influence and selfish imperatives (uniquely attributed to men). The grave consequences women accept in this belief is that their sexual market value declines with age, both in terms of intrasexual competition and fertility.
As such, we entertain the bemoaning of generations of women frustrated that they were unable to consolidate on a Hypergamous ideal because they believed they had ample time to do so while pursuing the Alpha Fucks aspect of their Hypergamy in the years of their prime fertility window.
Furthermore, they believe that the men who are available and ready to fulfill the Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy simply don’t measure up to their socialized, overinflated, sense of Hypergamous entitlement (and particularly in comparison to the men who made them Alpha Widows in their Party Years).
So distressing is this prospect, and so keenly aware of it are women that they are beginning to mandate failsafe measures in anticipation of not being able to optimize Hypergamy – such as preemptive egg freezing and legislating that men pay for their infertility while married in alimony settlements.
It’s come to the point where the ages of 29-31 are no longer being considered a crisis point for women with regard to child bearing. With the cultural popularization of the false hope in frozen ovum extending a woman’s birthing timeframe, now, even 35-38 years old seems to magically grant women some bonus years in which to secure a man for parental investment. The question is no longer one of a woman making herself suitable for a man’s parental investment (by his late 30’s no less) – her default suitability is inherent in her femaleness according to the Feminine Imperative – but rather, she believes, a magical-thinking proposition of waiting out the Hypergamously right father for her children.
Parental Precautions
I’m stressing these points here before I move on to Red Pill parenting ideology so men who are, or want to become fathers, husbands, LTR boyfriends, understand the import that Hypergamy plays in any family arrangement they hope to create.
Just to head off all the MGTOWs reading first; don’t get married. Under contemporary western circumstances there is no advantage for men in a state of marriage and 100% advantage for women. Unfortunately, as things are structured, marriage will always be a cost-to-benefit losing proposition while women insist on making marriage a legalistic contract of male-only liabilities.
That said, also remember that an entire world steeped in feminine-primary social imperatives is arrayed against your efforts in being a positively masculine father to your kids. Those anti-father efforts start with women’s own fem-centric conditioning that leads them to both manically push for Hypergamous optimization personally and societally, but yet they will delay that optimization until all opportunities for her have been exhausted. If you are considering marriage and starting a family with a woman between the ages of 27 and 31, statistically this is the situation and mentality that woman is likely experiencing.
I’m presenting these things to you as a father or potential father, because it’s important for you to discern what women have been conditioned to believe and expect from men and for themselves. In the coming weeks I will post an essay on the complementarity both sexes have evolved for to make our species what it is today; and that conventional complementarity is something idealistic equalism would distort. However, for now it’s important to realize that women have been thrust into this zero-hour, jump-at-the-last-second, cash out of the sexual marketplace schedule of mating that their very biology rebels against.
Single Moms and “Good” Fathers
It’s also important for men to understand that, while there is a constant ‘Man Up’ beratement of fathers for their lack of willing involvement in a child’s life, men are simultaneously presented with the female ’empowerment’ meme. That meme proposes these fathers’ parental involvement is effectively superfluous to that child’s maturation because Strong Independent Women® can reportedly fulfill a fathers’ role equally as well as any man (the equalist narrative).
For all the public awareness campaigns extolling fathers to be fathers, the message is always one of being “better” fathers and placing them into a default position of being less than ‘good’ by virtue of their maleness. In fact a ‘good’ father is a rarely appreciated commodity because that ‘good’ quality is always tied to a man’s never ending and ever shifting burden of performance.
On the other side, the single mother empowerment meme is endemic. However it’s important to use our Red Pill Lens with this meme because the message is one that forgives women of their inability to make themselves appropriate prospects for men’s parental investment. At the same time this meme also foist the blame for men’s unwillingness to parentally invest squarely on men’s presumed responsibility to women optimizing their Hypergamy to their satisfaction:
I’m Stupid Picky.
In my 15 or so years of dating, I’ve been around. I don’t mean that to sound skanky, but … it’s not like I haven’t given love a chance. The problem? Out of all the men I’ve ever dated, there has only been one or two that I felt a genuine connection with. It is a rare thing indeed for me to meet someone I feel like I could picture spending forever with. Sadly, I can’t even remember the last time I met a man who gave me butterflies. It’s definitely been years.
I Want the Fairytale.
There are very few relationships I’ve witnessed in my life that I would actually want for myself. Which begs the question, what do I want? Well, I want a man who is great with kids and totally open to adopting a houseful with me. I want a man who is smart and driven, sexy and hilarious. One who gets me, and who challenges me, and who makes me weak in the knees. Basically … I want everything. And I’m not sure the image I have in my head of what love should be is something that actually exists in real life.
My Daughter Will Always Be Priority Number One.
If you think my expectations of what I want for me are implausible, we probably shouldn’t even discuss my expectations of what I want for the man who steps into that paternal role for my daughter. Truthfully, as much as I want that father figure for her, I am also absolutely terrified of choosing wrong, of messing up our dynamic by choosing a man who isn’t worthy of being her father.
This article’s entire checklist reads like a manifesto for the Strong Independent® single mother with no consideration given to how men, potential fathers or husbands might interpret it. As expected, Campbell perpetuates the ‘put your kid first’ religion of motherhood here, but after reading through her single-mom rationalizations, and then combined with men’s presumptive servitude to the beneficiaries of the Feminine Imperative, it’s easy to see why most, if not all men, might be hesitant to sign up for their expected duty.
Preparations
My point here isn’t to dissuade men from wanting to be fathers, but rather that they enter into being a parent with their eyes open to how Hypergamy, and a cultural imperative that’s built around it, influences women’s life choices today. I mentioned earlier in this essay about women between the ages of 27 and 31 experiencing the first harsh realities of the consequences their choices have predisposed them to. Understand, as a man, your desire, your potential, for parental investment puts you into a position of being very sexually selective. So much in fact that the Feminine Imperative has long-held social conventions to pre-established with the purpose of convincing men they are not only obligated to fulfilling women’s Hypergamous strategy, but should feel lucky to do so.
The truth is that it is women who are at their most necessitous of men during this phase of their lives – thus placing men with the means and desire to become a parent into a prime selector’s position. Feminine social conditioning has done all it can to predispose Beta men to wait out and forgive women their short-term Alpha Fucks indiscretions during their Party Years, but as Red Pill awareness becomes unignorable the pressures of maintaining the image of being the prime selector will wear on women.
That said, I’ve had many men ask me how best to go about becoming a Red Pill parent. I’ve had many men express that the only advantage to marriage is in creating a healthy, hopefully complementary, environment in which to raise children. However, I’m not sure even women would concur with this assessment in the face of a social narrative that tells them they can raise a child as well as any father can. Yet, by the definition of the Feminine Imperative, a ‘good’ father is one who will sublimate his masculinity and assume a feminine, subservient gender role, thus making his superfluous whether he’s available or not.
In the last essay I emphasized establishing a strong, dominant, yet positive masculine Frame. This is the vital starting point for any long term relationship a man might hope to raise children in. The next imperative a man must confront is the Herculean obstacles he faces in a western culture that devalues him as a father, but obligates him to be an involved ‘good’ father who can only ever qualify himself to the mother of his children (who should place them above his interests) and qualify himself to a society that’s been conditioned to hold him to her standards.
Finally, a potential father needs to understand the circumstance in which women’s never ending quest to satisfy their Hypergamous doubt places them in at various phases of their maturity. For Red Pill men, a lot gets made of ‘vetting’ women for personal attributes and character to make them contenders for being the mother of their children. While this is important, I can’t stress enough how important it is to account for the Hypergamous choices women make prior to his consideration, as well as the consequences she should be held accountable for, yet attempts to avoid by his obligated graces.
In Part II I will expand on what to expect when raising sons and daughters from a Red Pill perspective.
Being a father was a huge redpill awakening for me in staying alive.
Trp and posts like these could not have happened at a more critical stage in my life. This is essential to long term strategy.
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
Maybe you are going to cover this in the following parts, but I have a question that I posted elsewhere. How does the Red Pill lens explain marriages where the husband wants kids but the wife doesn’t, even though the wife is around 35 or more (I think this isn’t so uncommon)? It could be because the wife is just postponing, as detailed in this part (particularly if she is still uner 35). Beyond that I could think of 3 possible reasons: 1. wife is worried about hereditary genetic issues. If this is the case, it makes me assume the… Read more »
I’m interested in what you have to say about lower income families where the government plays most of the role of father/provider/Alpha AND Beta.
@2936, Caveat emptor:
“I want a man who is great with kids and totally open to adopting a houseful with me. I want a man who is smart and driven, sexy and hilarious.” “Adopting”? Some mistake surely? Any man rating that highly in her estimation would almost by definition require those kids to be his & her own, or if he was sterile for some reason, at least her own. I’ve got some dismal news for her. Kids are more often than not a monumental pain in the ass, on a day-to-day basis. Not for their own sweet selves, but just for all… Read more »
At the risk of oversimplification, I don’t believe women want to be men at all. Hypergamy , like any other biological process, has winners and losers. For every woman who “has it all” -and make no mistake men, these women do exist- there more who are destined to try and fail. Sophilism ensures every female wishes to be the star of her own life show, and the FI provides the script:bang hot guys until your looks sour, then lock down $$$ and live like the queen of a sultan. Every woman I’ve met, from big cities to rural podunkvilles, has… Read more »
I am wondering what you think house-husbands should do. For me it is largely a moot point, since of my two kids one is off to college and the other is in high school, which is to say I am done. (And my children have both “come out” (so far) very well: top of the class and all that, whether that is nature or nurture.) But the whole matter raises interesting questions, such as what it means when the “primary care-giver” is also the disciplinarian, which fathers tend to be regardless, etc..
http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/25/mr-mom/
Outstanding post, Rollo. A few points, from an OMG perspective. Firstly, in the process of vetting it is vitally important for the RP man to establish as part of his frame that this is as much the union of two families, as it is two people. Further, this union is YOUR responsibility, and you guard it jealously. By establishing that frame to the in-laws on both sides even before a commitment is offered, honoring the previous generations while refusing to be ruled by them, you avoid a LOT of drama. It means some tense times with your in-laws at the… Read more »
@IAS In your heredity part you brought up the man being a Beta Bucks. I think those are 2 different things that should be separated. I know a couple in both situations. One dude is Alpha, but family has a lot of retards and heart disease. They are IVF and doing genetic screening for diseases. She doesn’t want it to be a “natural” insemination because they can screen for a lot of diseases now. They got 4 eggs fertilized, and 3 were diseased. They are implanting the healthy one. The other one is a woman married to a Beta. She… Read more »
Regarding the bitch-dominated Beta–contrast with proper Alpha behavior. He tells the woman, “Not tonight, Peg.” The woman has children on the alpha’s timetable, not on hers. All of the alpha’s plates do this.
Fantastic article. The acuity of your logic is an inspiration. I’m very thankful that you are on, “our side.” Either way though, the truth stands alone and I thank you for it.
It seems to me that there should be an emphasis on having children in RP doctrine. Without higher rates of reproduction than the competition, we die out.
@Yhufir, I’m not sure parenting should be a Red Pill “doctrine”, but certainly mentorship and exemplifying Red Pill awareness would be one. Issues of reproduction aside, being an example and directing the next generation is vital.
Great post Rollo & great comment Ianironwood.
I love your work Rollo, I really do. But I have to ask. Only having a single child, and a daughter of that. With a woman close to your same age. Your wife was nearing the ehiphany phase, when you met, was she not? And i believe you at 28 were having the phsycological need to start a family kick in. Did you get played by your wife?
Also, much more important. Do you think, women should be allowed to vote?
@Anders, “played”? No, because she knew what she needed in a man. Mrs. T’s father set a very strong Alpha impression for her so, I was expected to drive the car from our first date. That said, yes, she was most definitely in her Epiphany Phase and certainly subject to everything I’ve delved into about it. Did I realize it then? Not at all, but I was fortunate enough to find a woman who had an appreciation for conventional masculinity, even at a time when I had a very rudimentary understanding of it. I should also point out that we’d… Read more »
If we consider a woman’s primary value is child-bearing, then her reproductive market value pro-ratedly declines every nine months until she can no longer bear healthy children.
@Rollo
Thanks for the response.
However, I didn’t say “parenting” lol.
I’m not necessarily gonna outright support the idea of dropping buns in the oven and leaving. That might actually end up providing cannon fodder for the next generation of women. But, still, any culture that promotes having less children is a culture that fails.
Those aware of the alpha fux beta bux dualistic female desire will appreciate this response to Huffpost question: At what moment did you know you’d get divorced?
See answer:
http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/12580/slide_12580_182514_free.jpg
FYI: All the responses in this story are telling, see full: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/10/the-moment-i-knew_n_776063.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce
Another great one, Rollo. How ironic it arrived in my inbox as I walked in the door holding my pouch of mail with the Preventive Medicine book inside. Kudos.
“I can’t stress enough how important it is to account for the Hypergamous choices women make prior to his consideration, as well as the consequences she should be held accountable for, yet attempts to avoid by his obligated graces.” Great point. Every man needs to find the truth of what exactly his potential fiancee was doing during her early twenties. If she was riding the CC, then she needs to be held accountable for her choices. In other words, you need to next her like no tomorrow. She won’t be faithful, and she will end up divorcing you sooner rather… Read more »
“But, still, any culture that promotes having less children is a culture that fails.”
And yet the obverse is not true. Any culture that promotes having more children is not necessarily going to “win”. Depends on the content of that culture’s character. The red pill culture can only do so much without compromising itself.
Ref: http://therationalmale.com/2015/10/07/red-pill-parenting-part-i/#comment-121663
And that is why a bottoms up approach is needed by a red pill man. Not a top down approach to saving society. I know I’m changing the subject of your point Yhufir, but just wanted to make that point.
In that article you used as a reference. She is talking about no drinking anymore. The last line “And honestly, I just have very little interest in parenting my toddler while hungover these days.” Not that it is a bad idea to get drunk as a single parent. Not that endangering herself by getting wasted is bad. Not that she is worried about being a bad hing over parent…. She does not want to deal with being hung over. What a patch. Oh the hamster wheel on this one is spinning but the hamster is off to the side napping… Read more »
With the cultural popularization of the false hope in frozen ovum extending a woman’s birthing timeframe, now, even 35-38 years old seems to magically grant women some bonus years in which to secure a man for parental investment. There’s one thing I instinctively grasped, even in my Beta days: If I can’t have your prime years, you can’t have mine. If we consider a woman’s primary value is child-bearing, then her reproductive market value pro-ratedly declines every nine months until she can no longer bear healthy children. If I can’t have your prime years, you can’t have mine. Your sperm… Read more »
@The Mad A-rab
To be fair, I’d say anyone swallowing the Red Pill, male or female, really thinks hard about what they bring to the relationship. Granted, it’s more pronounced among women in some ways, but take a look at a Blue Pill Beta spouting JBY as his advice and try not to hear the same lack of concern about what he’s bringing to the table.
It’s tantamount to telling a man to do exactly what that hamster is doing: make it about what you want, not about what you need to do to make that person want you.
Rollo, I was wondering – what are your thoughts on what a RP man’s mental point of origin should be once he’s had kids? Obviously many guys who have kids are stuck in BP mode, thinking with their wife as their mental point of origin, at least until they get divorced and wind up with only the kid. But would it be correct to move your mental point of origin towards your kids? My first impression is that no, it wouldn’t be, because it will set a bad example and ultimately be worse for the kids than if you’d been… Read more »
@Toseeandtohear:
If you read these two recent posts
http://therationalmale.com/2015/09/28/the-red-pill-parent/
http://therationalmale.com/2015/09/30/hypergamy-knows-best/
I think you will have your answer, e.g.
“The problem for men with even the strongest initial Frame with their wives is that they cede that Frame to their kids.”
Thanks Rollo for this excellent material.
Thanks very much for the comments last night fellas – very helpful ! sorry I didn’t reply
The little girls expression in the top pic is pretty hilarious & adorable.What a “wonderful” mom that is setting such a great example for her young daughter by demonstrating the perfect pose for a slutty selfie. Single moms / hypergamy / feminism knows best,…..ya BULLSHIT!
“Any culture that promotes having more children is not necessarily going to “win”. Depends on the content of that culture’s character. “ Agreed SJF, this “demographics is destiny” stuff really grips my shite. Strikes me as demoralizing propaganda promulgated by hopelessly peasanty places (Chindia) trying to overawe more competent societies by sheer bulk, Xerxes-fashion. Making the best of a bad job. Top ten Niger 7.6 Mali 6.8 Somalia 6.6 Chad 6.3 Nigeria 6.0 Burundi 6.0 Angola 5.9 Uganda 5.9 DR Congo 5.9 Gambia 3.8 Wooden spoon S Korea 1.2 Bosnia/Hungary/Poland/Portugal/Slovakia/Spain 1.3 Germany/Austria/Italy/Japan/Cuba/Latvia/Thailand/Macedonia 1.4 Bulgaria/Ukraine/Switzerland/Serbia/Moldova/Croatia/Czech R 1.5 Canada 1.6 Netherlands 1.7… Read more »
urgh. Gambia 5.8
@Yhufir: Virtue is not hereditary. Red Pill is a meme, not a gene.
While I’m far from a #nohymendodiamond dude, understanding your future wife’s past is essential before a commitment is offered. If she’s a secret Alpha Widow, you need to know before you put a ring on it. @ianironwood I don’t really disagree with your thought here, but in all practicality how are you ever going to understand your future wife’s past? I would say assume the worst. Especially if she’s hot. Why do you even want to know? Honestly I’d rather not think about it. My goal would be to replace that Alpha in the back of her head with yourself.… Read more »
If you find a woman who is in love with her femininity and in love with masculinity, you won’t have an issue. I’m a suburban stay at home mother who spends a lot of time with other stay at home moms. The women who “put their kids first”, let themselves go, and belittle their husbands should have been easily identifiable as such (by their controlling tendencies, loud opinionated personalities, daily ponytail tendencies) long before they got pregnant. On the other hand, it’s very common for feminine girls to get excited fantasizing about their boyfriends/fiances/new husbands becoming strong masculine fathers someday.… Read more »
“I’m a suburban stay at home mother who spends a lot of time with other stay at home moms.”
Well somebody must be leaving their homes a lot then.
@Andy Yes, you do want to know. If she isn’t willing to be forthcoming about her past, then she won’t be forthcoming in the future. You don’t have to dump her if you don’t like the answer, but you should really know what you are up against.
Rollo, it might just be me but I think your blog would be a lot better with a bigger font. I find it hard sometimes to keep my focus on the content by having to put most of that focus on trying to read such a small font size. It doesn’t help that this particular typeface is also fairly packed together with the spacing between letters and lines. I enjoy your valuable content, but not so much the experience of having to read it, specially since you pack in a lot of information in one blog post. Just my 2… Read more »
Yes, you do want to know. If she isn’t willing to be forthcoming about her past, then she won’t be forthcoming in the future. I disagree. It’s one thing if you’re asking from a completely non-judgmental place just to talk about sex. If you’re asking from a worried, judgmental place it’s a complete DLV act. She’s going to feel like she’s being judged and basically you’re sending the message that you are insecure about your ability to be the best sex she’s ever had. Honestly, it shouldn’t be an issue because if you’re on your game you ARE the best… Read more »
@toseeandtohear Rollo, I was wondering – what are your thoughts on what a RP man’s mental point of origin should be once he’s had kids? I’ll take a swing at that. The answer is simple. Hardcore, unapologetic Patriarchy. When a man makes the investment in a wife and a family, the temptation to slide back into BP thinking is alluring. But that’s the decidedly wrong MPO. Once a commitment has been made and forged, and the period of readjustment begins, your MPO MUST remain that of the Captain of your boat. The fact that you are now officially and legally… Read more »
Coming in the next post. I’m trying to pace these, there’s a lot to consider.
@ kfg
LeeLee didn’t say which home moms were staying at. heh
@Gerson: ctrl ++ or View > Zoom > Zoom In
@Andy, I appreciate where you are coming from, but you are making a Single RP man’s mistake in approaching marriage. This isn’t just your permanent girlfriend you are dealing with here, this is the future mother of your children. The woman who will have the legal power in most places to pull the plug on your life support. This woman will share your name, credit rating, and social status. Statistically speaking, she will be more likely to murder you than anyone else. It’s not about DLV at this point – you should have clearly met all those challenges if you… Read more »
You need to look past impressing her pussy and take a rock-hard look at her soul. Dude, snow white is not going to turn down an Alpha fuck just because she’s snow white. IMO snow white being fucked into oblivion by some dude doesn’t make her less of a snow white. In fact if she is snow white in all likely hood she’s attracting the best of the best anyway. Like I said… If she has some experience and you’re on your game and regularly turning her into a puddle of mush she’s going to realize how valuable you are… Read more »
Easy Andy. I’m not sure you are aware who you are speaking to. Ian has considerable credibility and congruence in red pill praxeology.
Is this about children having children or is it about spoiled rotten children having children?
@SJF
I could care less who I’m talking to. IMO if you’re looking to disqualify a woman based on her sexual history you’re doing yourself a disservice because you better believe that the high quality chicks have been fucked in every way imaginable. If not you it’s somebody else… Might as well be you!
Don’t sweat it. You still have an idealistic view of marriage. That will change.
There Is No Snow White. Even marrying a virgin doesn’t protect you. The goal isn’t to find one, but to have a realistic understanding of the challenges you are signing up for and making an decision about your commitment as fully-informed as possible.
@Andy, I think you have a point, but I think it is a new situation that has not yet been completely digested by the redpill community. I think even 5 years ago it was still possible to screen women by their sexual history. These days though… I can’t think of a single 20 something girl that doesn’t have a sexual history as long as the tats on her arm. The old redpill screening rules are likely to turn up zero hits with today’s crop. Perhaps that’s just the way it is. It kind of defaults you to MGTOW if you… Read more »
Kids are not easy, but like anything else,what you put in is what you get back. My kids respect and love me, I was very hard on them and never budged on the important issues. My wife always deferred to me on this and the kids never “ran to mommy”. $ very expensive, we sent our kids to private HS and Colleges, but it paid off, they both are independent and living on their own. I am an outdoor guy but never pushed the kids into my hobbies. In college my daughter took a scuba diving class on her own,… Read more »
I think it is possible to put your kids first in a patriarchy. The disconnect is today, that seems to mean yielding to the wants of your children as apposed to telling them what they need.
They are children. They have no idea what is good for them. Enforcing patriarchal rules is putting them first.
There Is No Snow White. Even marrying a virgin doesn’t protect you.
I totally agree. I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman. If you’re getting married to a high quality chick you’re going to have to be on your game constantly anyway.
More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by.
NegreMarron
Co-sign everything Ian says. Think I echoed his speech over on the Red Pill Parent thread. Intense fatherly involvement: hell to the yeah. You are there to provide your presence, and to provide comfort and relief. Relief from pain and discomfort in particular. So that includes changing the diapers and giving baths, providing vigilance and comfort during illness. First aid responders do that. Boy scouts do that. Men do that. You can do that. Your kid wants you to do that. Everybody forgets that last factoid. They’re all caught up in what other men or women or pundits think, none… Read more »
Heheh, Andy. I’m chuckling to myself. Just yesterday we were green-lighting you to be irrationally self-confident.
So you got that memo.
Us old guys cringe, though, when you think a partner in inter-sexual relationships behaves like a mechanical clock and is always reliable in a linear fashion. You can be on top of your game and you still have to be aware of her potential variability. Invincibility to a man is wonderful. Until it’s not.
Some very good stuff here. Young men need to realize that it’s all connected. I advise all young men, today, against getting married. There is too much too lose (for the man). Until things change in our society and our laws then I would say no to marriage. Unfortunately, that lives little room for being a dad and wanting kids. Feminists and SJWs have done a good at job at getting what they wanted…and now the results (they’ll find) are not really what they wanted after all. It’s going to take some time for all of this to get sorted… Read more »
@wacokid
Thanks for sharing that. You must really love your daughter. That was great.
I’ve been irrationally self confident for a large chunk of my life. Probably because I’m really really really ridiculously good looking. And I’m smart.
If you’re worried about a girl leaving you when life hits you in the face you’re probably better off marrying a 7 or 8. But I don’t see how sexual history is going to matter much.
I think it is possible to put your kids first in a patriarchy. In the modern world, “putting kids first” creates a de facto matriarchy, except in cases where the man has sole custody. A man who is essentially a widower – say, for example, the mother is in prison – can put his child(ren) first, before himself. Those are the exceptions. In any LTR, married or not, “putting kids first” gives a huge veto to Mom, and creates a donut-hole marriage where “the kids” are the focus, the main topic of conversation, the determiners of where holidays are taken,… Read more »
Well, it is my first time posting here, but I have been reading for at least one year, and I want to thank Rollo for his essays. I used to live in the States, but I recently left. I was once married and saw that I had stopped living and going after my dreams , so the frustration started to open my eyes. I kept a journal and seek more information about male-female commerce. I separated from my wife. She went back to her country and I went back to my country. One book which I found important and read… Read more »
Andy – “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman. If you’re getting married to a high quality chick you’re going to have to be on your game constantly anyway” If she has a blemished past, she isnt high qualtiy. For instance: if she ever cheated in the past, she is likely to do it again. I would take that into serious consideration before any real commitment is made. If she is easily “led” into random sex, it won’t change because of a ring. You don’t want to be the “settle down guy” for… Read more »
Knowing red pill truths; awareness of female cynicism is a good thing. Knowing the principals of game is a good thing. But that knowledge does not automatically resolve personal insecurity and paranoia.
Looking back at the fact that I have a 17 year old daughter, now divorced almost 10 years and have been and continue to be subjected to the FI and all the negative consequences as Rollo so explicitly explains, I can assuredly say that I would have not gotten married. Having my daughter was the only consolation. I am fortunate that choosing divorce has afforded me to reclaim my identity as a man and allowed me to reassert a masculine frame for mine an my daughters benefit. I intentionally chose visitation with limited cohabitation with my daughter to avoid the… Read more »
If she is easily “led” into random sex, it won’t change because of a ring.
haha, what advantage exactly does a high quality woman gain in declining Alpha fucks? Do you really think that absence of previous sex is going to change her proclivity to cheat? She’s going to rationalize it away no matter what. There is literally nothing you can do to prevent cheating other than make sure you are optimizing her hypergamy. Even then… She could still cheat on you. It is what it is.
No snark here, just an honest question. How can a man vet a modern woman for commitment? I ask because in my previous line of work, it was a government job which required a throurough security clearance. You’d think an official investigation into someone’s past would filter out the criminals and jerks. Sometimes it doesn’t and The Government gets it wrong. That’s an official , US Government background check. Atop the fact no individual man will have unlimited access to a woman’s background like that, we face another challenge. Women lie. I don’t just mean lie verbally; their very personalities… Read more »
What Ironwood said, times many… I made that child birth slide into BP world when the first one came along and it was a mistake, I caught it pretty early and spoke up and said fuck this, I am a parent too, give me my kid. My wife was monopolizing the whole parenthood thing and it sucked. I’m glad I grabbed the wheel and took some control over the whole thing, I felt fine dealing with kids right from the minute it was handed to me in the operating room. It’s not hard. If cavemen and monkeys can do it,… Read more »
@anonymous,
We are talking apples and oranges. What you say is true from an external point. If it is observable that you are putting the kids first, then everything else follows as you say.
I’m saying that internally, you can put the kids first, but the outside observer would never be able to tell. Today’s modern observer would see an old school tyrant who needs to get with the times.
Andy – oh I agree, if a woman wants to cheat she will. But when it comes to marriage, always hedge your bets. Of course, we may have totally different ideas of what constitutes a quality woman here. For a wife, high SMV does not equal quality. In fact, I don’t place it in the top 5 needed traits. She only has to pass my boner test, and the hotter she is the more likely it is she will require a lot of gaming. Its one thing to test your skills on the open market, but when you put half… Read more »
Just my take obviously. But quality for me does not directly relate to HB status.
Yeah, you and everybody else man. Do you think that Alpha’s don’t like the sweethearts? Everybody loves the sweethearts. It’s more fun to fuck the sweethearts. I wouldn’t be fooled into believing that the sweethearts cheat much less than the bitches though.
It takes a village, yet fathers are unnecessary. I struggle w/the contradiction. Recently I’m experiencing women telling me shit such as “when are you gonna settle down, women in your demo (44) aren’t looking to play the field, oh you’ll find the one someday”, etc. I suppose I’ve become suitable “marriage stock” having been RP over a year now. It’s fascinating watching women’s facial contortions when I tell them “I’m enjoying the first adult sexual realationships of my life, and why should I marry when statistically I have a better than 50% chance of losing more than half my shit… Read more »
“The man with nothing to lose is the most dangerous man in the room.” I know that my wife could, through the power of law, destroy our marriage in a heart beat but she also has come to learn it would not mean that much to me. She knows that I view living alone, like a monk as a very viable if not favourable option. She knows I could walk on my family, my life, my investments and everything and simply go walkabout and I’d actually be pretty happy with that. This gives me great power because she also knows… Read more »
Andy -Do you think that Alpha’s don’t like the sweethearts? Of course! I hope you know I’m not preaching “find your unicorn” here. There are matters of degree. Just about any woman alive in the US has a history, but they dont all include a bouncy house and 4 guys on spring break. Look, for all that we talk basic biology here, women DO have personality and character differences. My point is: past sex is a given. But not all women were total carousel riders. Some take a ride and get off quickly, and others buy a season pass. The… Read more »
There is no such thing as a “quality woman” anymore than there is any such thing as a “soul mate”. Both are contrived fairy tale characters. There are only real people who are always more dynamic than anything we contrive for ourselves. And…..here is the hardest part for many to accept…like it or not every person has a mind of their own and the ability to make their own decisions. Those who cannot accept this fact risk self inflected disappointment and misery. Yes, unfortunately for me I write from experience, but fortunately those who comprehend can avoid the same.
“how are you ever going to understand your future wife’s past?” she should only be your future WIFE if you ARE her past. we have 60+ years to screw but only a few years to find a prime wife. young guys need to understand this. the clock is ticking. finding a good wife is our version of the wall. as a young man living under your parents’ roof you are limited by geography and time. the crop of chicks you start to notice in fourth grade is your pool of potential wives (hopefully your parents made good choices and you… Read more »
Just about any woman alive in the US has a history, but they dont all include a bouncy house and 4 guys on spring break. Cocaine is a hell of a drug. haha, but seriously I think you can gather more from a woman’s character by dating her for a while than by judging her sexual history. It just seems like such a beta move IMO. Also, the whole sexual expectations that ianironwood is talking about… Why would you talk about that? Just do it and don’t ask for permission. Sheesh. It seems like basic red pill theory to me.… Read more »
Andy, “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman.”
On behalf of every prostitute in the world, who’s working her ass/ mouth off , I’d like to thank you.
You are now the Robin prostitute hood.
More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by.
I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.
@SD How can a man vet a modern woman for commitment? Realistically it’s impossible to ever truly completely know any person in your life. Used to be that social shaming of sluts + lower mobility due to lower technology (no escaping your past if moving away is hard) + a marriage system that wasn’t a game of Russian Roulette more or less took care of it for you if your Frame was solid. Not so much anymore. The trick then is to get good at reading people and to use dread. I’m fortunate to have a pretty good natural read… Read more »
@Rollo
@Andy
http://i.imgur.com/ESuGIVw.jpg
Relevant
@Andy More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by. I feel like this is a self defeating mindset. Nah, it’s just being realistic. First, there have been studies that show women who have had more partners lose their ability to pair bond. They get bored more easily and are more likely to bail on you or hate you behind your back because you’re not the previous partner she thinks about when you’re fucking her. Second, it’s simple statistics. More dudes means more chance she’s slept with Chad before you and couldn’t lock him down, hence the reason… Read more »
Red pill parenting, is telling you sons and daughters , “I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman.”
” I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.”
Argument from Undesired Consequences. Implicitly an Appeal to Emotion, which in this case you have actually made explicit.
Andy – this isn’t about self defeat, its about protecting your future and finances. Its also a cost analysis: how much work to keep this woman around versus what I get out of it for the effort. For me, high effort women aren’t worth it, full stop. Sure, I need to be on my game for myself, but I don’t see a reason to make the task harder than necessary. And willingly wifing up a woman with a track record of highly hypergamous behavior IS making it difficult and exposing you to financial ruin. And for what? A HB9-10 trophy… Read more »
US marriage and divorce laws came up a few times now. I’m getting the impression they are especially fucked up compared to other countries. I’ll give you an example: Here in Germany she will get only half the increase in the families wealth during the marriage. What you had before or got by inheritance is yours and stays yours. If for some reason she got the bigger increase in her books, she will have to give half. And if you didn’t get more wealthy during the marriage, she doesn’t get anything. If you know what you’re doing there are plenty… Read more »
I consider myself a red pill parent. I am married (mistake #1 I know) and have a 1 year old child. We are planning to have at least 3 children. I became red pill aware gradually by the time of the wedding with my current wife. Before that I did not know TRP but I had some minimal PUA knowledge. I wanted to raise children in a family so I have consciously searched for good mother material using my instincts and previous knowledge from what I have seen in the world. Up to now I am happy with the results.… Read more »
@JSmith: the data speaks for itself. Well done. Alpha widowing is possibly (probably) the “how” or “why” it happens, but regardless the data shows it does happen.
@Sun Wukong
Okay, say you ask some chick about her sexual past. What exactly is she going to say that is going to make you feel better??? Why do you want to feel better in the first place? You’re just screaming “I’m an insecure Beta!”
Just make sure that you’re her Chad. If you don’t believe you are deep down you’ve already lost.
@Jsmith
Same thing. There’s only so many of us around. Of course there’s going to be Alpha widows, but there are lucky girls that end up with us.
@Andy, I’ve got a post warming up for you. I’ll publish tomorrow.
It’s not about making you feel better about her past, it’s about collecting information from which to make an informed decision. I agree, overtly asking her smacks of Beta insecurities and forces her into a position of playing a role she thinks you expect, or she doubles down and shames you for ‘judging’ her. Either way the data you hoped to glean is corrupted. Far better to be subtle and covert about it. Most men don’t have the patience or mastery for it, but women LOVE to talk about themselves and with the right art she’ll volunteer every honest detail… Read more »
Andy “More sexual partners = more potential Alphas to be widowed by.
I feel like this is a self defeating mindset.”
On behalf of every cuckold, every pimp, every slut, every feminist, would like to thank you for an outstanding mindset.
Ps,
Special thanks from the porn industry too.
Sheryl Sandberg loves you too.
@Andy Okay, say you ask some chick about her sexual past. What exactly is she going to say that is going to make you feel better??? Why do you want to feel better in the first place? You’re just screaming “I’m an insecure Beta!” You missed my point. Do I care about how it makes me feel? No. I’m just vetting for what they should be to me without feelings getting involved. Since that’s the frame I come from, do I phrase it like a Beta or make it a priority? Nope. If it comes up (i.e. she says “You… Read more »
Andy – “Just make sure that you’re her Chad. If you don’t believe you are deep down you’ve already lost.” Good luck! While I don’t disagree with you, and in fact act in accordance with your statement daily, I simply don’t operate on a “jump and pray” model. Risk assessments are how I hedge my bets, and at a certain level some women are simply too much risk. You’re right there are no garaunties, but past track record seems a decent heuristic to measure hypergamous tendencies in a prospective wife. It isn’t necessarily her N that matters, but how she… Read more »
Great, for I’m leaning towards Andy’s side. Trying to find the sweet spot between “quality women” and the risk of her “making up for missing out” doesn’t sound like a good idea. If your wife/LTR is so busy making sure you don’t cheat on her and you don’t upgrade her for something hotter, she wont have time to cheat on you or think about divorce.
See that mom shooting the selfie in my lead picture? Someone, somewhere thinks she’s a “quality woman”.
Get that term out of your head now. There are no “Quality Women” there are only ‘women’.
http://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/
Quality is a matter of degree. “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
Mrs. Gamer was corralled by her father until she moved out of her house after finishing college. No bf’s. N = 0 before we married. Maybe 0.1 if you consider kissing on the lips to cause a little risk. Mrs. Gamer also used to chase her older brother out of her family’s house. Kate in “Taming of the Shrew” fits Mrs. Gamer very accurately. Quality in some ways, not in others. The shrewishness is tameable and trainable (out). Sluttishness not so much. Our marriage has been sweet lo these last three months. I keep getting loyalty tests from Mrs. Gamer… Read more »
I’ve got a post warming up for you. I’ll publish tomorrow.
Sweeet.
Anyway, I feel like you can tell when a chick is super into you sexually. If she gets bored fast, then ditch her. If she fucked 30 losers and the fucking man, then you’re the fucking man.
@Andy, have a read of this:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/06/the-slut-paradox/
“When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men ((((ANDY)))exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”
“If she fucked 30 losers” if she fucked 30 then she’s way too old. 30 losers? then your standards are way too low. there are young ones turning legal every day. why bother with the used up old ones? oh yeah, because even the most seasoned puas shit their pants at cold approaching 17 year olds without the help of alcohol and the bar/club environment. why settle for some other dudes’ leftovers when you can pick them fresh? oh yeah, because it’s way fucking harder. there are few things that feel better than rising to a challenge. if you’re not… Read more »
“I just don’t see how sexual history will change the quality of the woman.”
Yes this was posted in The Rational Male/the manosphere.
A DATE WITCH WILL LIVE IN INFAMY.
To me saying a woman’s past sexual history means nothing smacks of “sex positive” thinking from the FI. Of course women don’t want to be judged on their past “mistakes”, but that isn’t a mans problem to solve.
I have found a woman with wife potential. Ive found that my extensive vetting has actually been a DHV and form of dread. Even pretty open, direct, and formal vetting (i.e. talking about parenting style, the failure of divorce, gender differences/expectations) has proven to make her qualify to me. Its an interesting balance when your woman approaches unicorn status while still being aware of AWALT. Im testing the waters thoroughly and evaluating everything through an RP lens. How do men/fathers quell the drive and desire for new mating opportunities even with an amazing woman? Seems like tough human nature to… Read more »
@Andy,
Go post that at Chateau Heartiste.
Lay off Andy for a minute. He’s still learning. I wrote this in the Slut Paradox post, but I’m less concerned with a woman’s N-count than I am about the strength of the impression left by the most impressive Alpha she’s ever been with. Granted, more frequency means more potential for that, but if a woman has only ever been with one guy and that dude was an apex Alpha to her, then one is all it takes. If she’s been with a dozen guys and they were all Beta losers, or went Beta after the fact, and I’m the… Read more »
Either way the data you hoped to glean is corrupted. Far better to be subtle and covert about it. Yeah, but what exactly are you trying to find out? You want a number? I feel like you can tell if you’re “the guy.” I feel like you’re taking my side with that slut paradox. Say you find the (hypothetical) snow white, and you ass fuck her and cum on her face on day one. Is she no longer snow white? I mean say she worships the ground you walk on for months. Why does her sexual history matter other than… Read more »
For the record. My ideal would probably be a 23yr old 8 that grew up middle class, fucked around for a few years and was intensely obsessed with me.
“Say you find the (hypothetical) snow white, and you ass fuck her and cum on her face on day one. Is she no longer snow white?”
First of all, she was never snow white. Second, if you filled her ass and came on her face day 1, are you gonna buy it when she tells you she “usually doesn’t do this kind of thing” while you bust your nut?
Rollo
“but I’m less concerned with a woman’s N-count than I am about the strength of the impression left by the most impressive Alpha she’s ever been with.”
Rollo, what is the cock carousel ?
Is it okay when a woman tells me she fucked 45 guy but only one of them was “special”?
@keyser, again, more frequency = more potential = more squid ink.