Commenter Divided Line came on with such a strong take on Our Sisters’ Keeper I had to riff on it:
Hypergamy is a given and it’s not going anywhere. But even if women’s sexuality is biologically rooted, their rationalizations for it aren’t possible without a compliant culture. So long as women are the damsels, the victims who are put upon by the cruel and all powerful patriarchy, so long as men are perceived to be powerful and free in a way that they clearly are not nor have ever been, open hypergamy is possible. After all, any guy who points it out or complains about it is branded an embittered loser, a misogynist, a creep, and so on, but I wonder to what degree this will change as red pill awareness spreads and penetrates the mainstream. I mean, how long do we think that men will go on smiling and nodding when it’s increasingly the case that more and more of us can see what bullshit all of this is?
What it makes me think of is Alana Massey’s Dickonomics article.
If you haven’t already read it, she goes on and on about how male attention is abundant and cheap, proving that women are well aware of what men who bother with online dating realized from the start. She recognizes the extreme degree of power this gives her before hamstering it away with this:
“Some will read my gleeful rejections on the many faces I encounter on Tinder as evidence of a disturbing uptick in malevolent, anti-male sentiments among single straight women. It is not. It is evidence of us arriving nearer to gender equilibrium where men can no longer happily judge the clear and abundant photos and carefully crafted profiles of women but become incensed when they take the opportunity to do the same.”
How many times have you seen this? All venality, cruelty, selfishness, indifference, etc is justified, of course, because men have it so good, women have it so bad, blah blah etc. So she can write something like this and the sisterhood will nod their heads and no doubt be able to ignore doubt or second thoughts in regards to their atrocious, destructive, and cruel treatment of the opposite sex. Women, like people who rationalize generally, tend to think in bogus bumper sticker one liners because they provide excuses not to think for themselves. And men, after all, just saunter about in the patriarchal torture dungeon of a society free and powerful, and pluck women from the trees before discarding them like jizz towels, so naturally, why should she consider their complexity as human beings or ever recognize what a rotten, horrible human being she is? They’re free to retaliate against men for women’s imaginary oppression.
But how long will they be able to keep employing these rationalizations and getting away with it if the public dialog changes? And it has already begun to change. I’ve watched it happen over the last year. You see more and more disclaimers in articles which appeal to the you-go-girl crowd. It really does seem as if there is a growing awareness that they are full of shit, or at the very least, that maybe there are moral complexities and obligations that come with female social power, to the degree that they are even willing to recognize that power.
Hypergamy isn’t going anywhere, but since men increasingly are comparing notes now and voicing their criticism of women’s bullshit (at least online), maybe it really isn’t the case that women are going to be able to continue this bullshit with public sanction. Is this wishful thinking?
I’ve made the case in several other blog comment and forum threads, but it’s getting almost too easy to point out women’s overt embrace of Open Hypergamy. There was a time – only 4 short years ago – that I would be run up the flagpole for publishing my observations on the ins and outs of women’s sexual strategy. Women in the blogosphere hated the fact that I was exposing their Game. They didn’t like the idea that I was informing men about the plan women had for them or the part they played, and by informing them it represented a fundamental threat to the long term success (and essentially their long term security) of that plan.
If you’re feeling nostalgic you can skim through the comments of posts like Wait For It? or The Threat:
Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.
[…]
Race to Awareness
Because of women’s relatively short window of peak sexual viability it is imperative that men be as unaware of their slower, but progressively increasing SMV for as long as possible in order for them to achieve the prime directive of female hypergamy; realize the best genetic options and the best provisioning options she has the capacity to attract in that peak window. If Men become aware of their SMV before a woman can consolidate on her options with monogamous commitment her sexual strategy is defeated.
The mistake (and the binary retort) is to think this need for contrivances was concocted in whole as some grand sisterhood conspiracy. This just proves an ignorance of social constructs. For a social contrivance to be such, it necessitates being repeated by society WITHOUT a formal conception – meaning we learn the contrivance from seeing it, internalizing it and repeating it ourselves without forethought. The best social contrivances are inconspicuous and rarely questioned because they’ve been learned without having been formally taught. This is why I think encouraging men NOT to bother trying to understand women is in itself a social convention. Don’t look at that man behind the curtain, just accept it for what it is, enjoy the show, you’re better off that way, the Mighty Oz has spoken.
This is the threat that Game represents to the feminine imperative. Widely shared, objective assessments of Men’s SMV and how it develops is the antithesis of the female sexual strategy. Women’s greatest fear is that they could become the ‘selected’ instead of the ‘selectors’.
Bear in mind I wrote this years before I published Preventive Medicine. This was also only a few years before I formally identified women’s embrace of openly, proudly, flaunting their sexual strategy. I can remember being soundly rebuked by women denying they adhered to anything so callous as an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks schedule with regard to men.
There was a certain nervous undertone that accompanied their shaming that revealed how protective they were of keeping the plan as ambiguous and secretive as possible from men in general. For every acknowledgement of the biological influences of Ovulatory Shift behaviors by these women there was always an obligatory, “yes, but, people are people, we’re above all that, it’s what’s on the inside that counts, NAWALT” intended to offset the ugliness of it.
Now, the same women who adamantly denied what their functionally opportunistic concept of love represents; the same women who rejected the idea of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks sexual strategy openly and triumphantly boast about it. It’s become a source not only of agency, but a proud admission of perceived power on the part of women.
At some point the social impetus behind Open Hypergamy became so blatantly obvious they could no longer deny the truth of it. The Genie was out and it was more advantageous to not only to welcome it, but to brandish and profit from forcing men to accept it. Thus we have Open Hypergamy both subtly and triumphantly waved in our mainstream advertising, our pop-culture, our social media, our music and even the movies we take our kids to enjoy.
To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.
– George Orwell
I expect most of the worst aspects of Open Hypergamy (Overt Hypergamy if you prefer) are fairly obvious to my readers. Even the now the subtle influence in the media and advertising becomes not-so-subtle for men accustomed to seeing things with a Red Pill Lens. We can only shake our heads and hope that so blatant a confession of relishing power in Hypergamy on the part of unaware men will come to light for them.
Divided Line raises a very poignant observation – what’s next? What’s the natural progression?
Hypergamy isn’t going anywhere, but since men increasingly are comparing notes now and voicing their criticism of women’s bullshit (at least online), maybe it really isn’t the case that women are going to be able to continue this bullshit with public sanction. Is this wishful thinking?
I think there is a caveat we have to address here first. With Red Pill awareness it gets very easy to slide down the slippery slope and believe that ‘all women’ will have some equal capacity to enforce the worst of Open Hypergamy on men in general. Yes, in a westernizing context, women have an almost unilaterally state-backed influence on enforcing men’s de facto participation in Hypergamy by order of degree. However, it’s important to remember that men’s willing participation or coercion in it is still (as yet) limited by women’s capacity to attract and involve them.
Men want (and yes, need) sex and will find behavioral and psychological adaptations and workarounds to get it. That may be MGTOW, prostitution, porn or an as yet developed alternative of virtual sex. It may be Red Pill awareness and applied Game, it may be a self-aligning push to pander to the most extreme elements of the Alpha Fucks or Beta Bucks ends of Hypergamy, or it may be upping fame or a false social proof (via personality politicking on social media) that makes for men’s future adaptations.
Peak Hypergamy
I’m not a prognosticator about such things, but I can make logical estimates based on observations. One thing is for certain, and I discussed this with Niko in our talk, intersexual politicking and the condition of women will reach a ‘Peak Hypergamy’ state in the not too distant future. There will indeed come a point when even Blue Pill men will be unable to ignore so gross a power imbalance between the sexes.
There’s been some debate as to whether there’s some socially conscious ‘marriage strike’ in the manosphere for some time, and I think marriage statistics being at an all time low bear much of this out. I don’t think this is the result of some nascent MGTOW awakening, but rather a deductive, peripheral, general awareness men have of Open Hypergamy in our current social order at the moment.
Just as a last aside here, let me state that I am aware of the more militant, absolutists of MGTOW belaboring the idea that ‘the juice aint worth the squeeze’ and the dangers of even approaching a woman risk his being accused of sexual harassment, much less having recreational sex with her leaving a man open to post-sex regret-rape allegation. I get that. It’s part of the ascension toward a ‘Peak Hypergamy’ social state. My question is whether these men would find it worth their while to engage with women if their fears were removed in a post Peak State social order? Some may even live long enough to have to figure that out for themselves.
I think Divided Line is correct – there will come a state when Open Hypergamy’s power consolidation becomes too obvious and the social mechanics the Feminine Imperative has used to ensure that consolidation will be too much for women to maintain as a collective. Then what? What will women rationalize for themselves when they realize their monster has become too much?
I’ll reiterate it again; socially, it didn’t take long for women to transition from a secretive Hypergamy to an open display of it. The same women who called AF/BB the imaginings of misogynous men only 4 years ago are now proudly claiming it as truth (they knew all along) and a means to a power they’ve always had and should openly use.
The social, political and personal stress point of Peak Hypergamy is coming. It may take a bit longer, but there will come a point where even women will be forced to recognize the consequences of legislating their hubris.
This reads like a node to the beta growing up.
Ode*
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
The basic problem is ; Hypergamy is its own agency. It operates so basically that even the female concious mind is only vaugely aware of its directives. Hypergamy jumps, and the female emotional state asks ‘how high’. At which point the mouth is engaged to align the two forces with whatever social mores exist around her. I dislike the melodramatic associations, but Hypergamy really is akin to a Manchurian Candidate type situation. The woman is the programmed assasin, the target is some unfortunate dude is unaware of how much damage she’s capable of, and when the rifle fires and the… Read more »
“Hypergamy is a given and it’s not going anywhere. But even if women’s sexuality is biologically rooted, their rationalizations for it aren’t possible without a compliant culture. So long as women are the damsels, the victims who are put upon by the cruel and all powerful patriarchy, so long as men are perceived to be powerful and free in a way that they clearly are not nor have ever been, open hypergamy is possible. After all, any guy who points it out or complains about it is branded an embittered loser, a misogynist, a creep, and so on, but I… Read more »
I think they won’t willingly abandon their peak. They’ll justify it as being “good for men”, meaning it somehow benefits us, and they’ll try to consolidate as best they can with all the white knights elected to office. Oh sure, there will be lots of alpha widows who are unhappy, but they’ll get their cash and prizes somehow. I would say that the only solution to hypergamy is individually, calmly, and openly confronting the destructive side of it and exposing it to the perpetrator. Basically, I believe the only solution is flat out backbreaking levels of frame establishment on a… Read more »
@SD “Because women in Western nations own the family unit lock, stock, and barrel.” I was just journaling about that to myself. It hurts to have to admit and you can’t create dialogue in a social context with that. When it does become criminal I won’t participate anymore. I’m leaving somewhere else. @Jeremy “and they’ll try to consolidate as best they can with all the white knights elected to office.” Was just walking on the streets of DC and thinking about that. “Basically, I believe the only solution is flat out backbreaking levels of frame establishment on a societal level.”… Read more »
“Complaceny will kill you” applies here. Western women are becoming complacent in their open hypergamy because the mass media is supporting them. You’ll know that the end of it is nigh when Hollywood releases a movie that, as its central theme, openly mocks modern female hypergamy.
Its already starting… There are people running for office in my state with billboards for their campaigns looking to do away with lifetime alamony
I laughed my ass off when I saw it the other days
Regarding the socially conscious and coordinated action (conspiracy) vs. general awareness (consensus) argument: In the vast majority of cases, what looks like conspiracy and coordination is really just consensus. Similar people, with similar needs/priorities, backgrounds and values, see various issues similarly, react to market forces similarly, and come up with similar programs and solutions. That doesn’t rule out occasional minor conspiratorial actions in support of the consensus (e.g. trying to deny some data showing really inconvenient truths or shout down and defame persons revealing those truths) but these minor conspiracies are quite tiny in comparison to the overarching consensus. Feminine… Read more »
Is it wishful thinking? I guess a better question is… Do you think its wishful thinking?
Peak Hypergamy will pop when the Oculus Rift hits mass market.
I came from the low middle class in Brazil (we are poor but stable, intact family, etc.) and I can see that hypergamy constrained by culture is way less crazy than in your unrestrained society. When I first read about rationalizations and the hamster here in the manosphere I was shocked, I don’t encounter such things in my daily life like “if it’s X it doesn’t count, I was really astonished and amused lol. My theory is that these women are teached accountability, long-term thinking, lack of the entitled princess mindset, respect for men and down to earth rational thinking;… Read more »
Also the girls that went to school with me were married some just after highschool others by 20-22, the carousel is small here and the riders are known by what they are. I think it is a result of more masculine men, her highschool sweetheart is actually capable of getting her wet; conservative culture; economic necessity, a couple is financially stronger; the absence of the “will go find myself” mindset, if your husband satisfy you in your ovulation why risk the relationship to get some strange dick; and other things.
I’ve moved back to a large, cosmopolitan city in my home country (approximately 5 million) and never has it been as plain as day. My social circles straddle international and local, younger and older. This year I’ve banged 10-12 women ages ranging 22 to 42 (I’m 32), as well as numerous ‘dates’, ‘meetups’ and lower level inconclusive fondlings; the dynamics of female strategies play out repeatedly as described by Rollo. The young international crowd here for a short time? Immediately up for a bang and proactive about it. The now, the tingles, is priority. I introduced one foreign girl to… Read more »
“My theory is that these women are teached accountability, long-term thinking, lack of the entitled princess mindset, respect for men and down to earth rational thinking; by culture and also by sheer necessity. When a woman grows in a not abundant economic condition she is forced to be rational and keep her head pointed to reality. The ladies here work to in the day to pay the college they go in the night, there’s no insulation from reality.” You can teach them only as much accountability as much as you can teach calculus to a dog. They learn to do… Read more »
In my opinion the current climate of rampant Hypergamy has a lot to do with men giving themselves a low value. The loser being chosen by some perceived goddess is a common blue pill romantic fantasy. It goes further to beta men giving her all upfront for free. And in my opinion even wanting that 9.5 to show her off and demonstrate the man’s value through her is part of that thinking. Being conscious about your own value and dealing with your offers in a way preserving it’s value through scarcity are the counters, defeating the female sexual strategy. So… Read more »
Why should AF:BB stop at Wedlock? Last weekend (as I mentioned at Dal’s) I boned-up on what I take to be the extreme of Hypergamy – something which clearly would not be to every woman’s taste or ability – namely Cuckoldry, which one might describe as post single-dom carousel-riding. The husbands gain a masochistic yet intense sense of shame yet mixed with intense sexual desire; the women screw with their twenty-something fuck-buddies or en-masse with men beyond the concept of well-endowed and doing things that they say they would never do with their husbands. After a session the husband ‘takes’… Read more »
@SD”I dislike the melodramatic associations, but Hypergamy really is akin to a Manchurian Candidate type situation. The woman is the programmed assasin, the target is some unfortunate dude is unaware of how much damage she’s capable of, and when the rifle fires and the smoke clears…..”oh, totally not my fault. The Sniper Rifle just went off.” Thus, even if you point out her own Hypergamy to a female its like trying to tell the Manchurian Candidate he’s under mind control. ” Makes me wonder if the “mind controlled beta-kitten-slave” women in conspiracy theory websites like Vigilant citizen is just women… Read more »
Jeremy: “I would say that the only solution to hypergamy is individually, calmly, and openly confronting the destructive side of it and exposing it to the perpetrator. Basically, I believe the only solution is flat out backbreaking levels of frame establishment on a societal level.” LH: “So what is lacking today is mostly the understanding of men about the sexual market and how to deal with women properly. And regarding this we shouldn’t underestimate the importance of the internet. The traditional male spaces may be gone, but this new one on the internet has offerings no male space ever had.… Read more »
Sorry about the code in the last comment, the italics should have ended after the third paragraph.
“I have no idea where this Hypergamy is heading.”
Same as Roman decadence , upto the end of civilization. A new beginning after that.
Even if you keep following TRM protecting your own house, all your neighbours houses will be on fire.
The parasite will keep consuming the host; until there is no more host and then there is no more parasite.
It takes a lot of effort to produce something, but not much to usurp it.
“I think they won’t willingly abandon their peak.”
They never abandon their perceived peaks.
Still, I’m ambivalent to why all of this is discussed with this bad connotation. I’m the lifting young guy who tries to live his passion 40h a week, and the world around me is just overhead I interact with. Reading Rollo is enabling me to take the most out of the social back and forth. So assuming all of this holds as it stands. If I don’t plan on getting a wife and kids, don’t get in trouble with the law, and am RedPill aware – am I not in the best position of all with where this is going?… Read more »
BuenaVista made a comment a while ago about AF, BB and then AF becoming the norm. I wonder if the window for BB is narrowing and getting smaller and slowly diminishing. The rampant stories of cuckholdry, swinging (sadly I know a few swingers) and cheating makes me wonder whether we’ve reached peak Beta Bucks. As BBs become more aware of the dynamic and delay marrying it might be the case that women will simply chuck in the towel of false pretences and solely pursue AFs. I know a lot of frustrated women currently looking for BBs and one of the… Read more »
@rugby11ljh
I’m saying I think the only solution is significant red pill awareness in the general population, to the point where most men work to establish their own frame. Anything short of that and I believe that women will not abandon peak hypergamy.
Then what? What will women rationalize for themselves when they realize their monster has become too much?
I wonder . . . will some women try to rein this in themselves? The secret is a powerful one and when it becomes too pervasive, I think there are many women who will work hard to put the cat back in the bag. The question is, what else will they be willing to put back in the bag to get what they want?
@Lurker
There’s a study that points out exactly what you are saying. The more prosperous the society, the greater the sex differences. There’s more freedom for women to exploit their sexual strategy in the “West”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=31&v=l3JuaIg99X0
It is also ironic as you point out. This freedom may ultimately make them less happy!
I think it is more than social constructs that support the prime directive of female hypergamy. Biology works against a man’s awareness of the female sexual strategy. While a 22 year old female is aware of her shining star SMV in part because of all the same aged and older males vying for her attention, few males are similarly positioned at that age. We don’t have an awareness of what we haven’t experienced. For my own self, I was tall, gangly, poor, had bad teeth and no car. Had I a vision of the man I was to become in… Read more »
I sense a lot of defeatism here with regards to the FI etc and the idea that it cannot be defeated. I believe this to be misplaced. Yes as part of RP its easy to be discouraged and cynical but in doing so you assign to much strength to the enemy, specifically feminism. I would submit that feminism in step with peak Hypergamy is and has jumped the shark somewhat which is good news really. The pendulum has swung almost all the way to one side. Hypergamy will undercut itself as it always does for it is rooted in that… Read more »
Women have always excelled at denying the existence of the power they have. They violate that at their peril. The thing they can’t change is the thing they envy. Men truly do create almost everything of value in this world. After women overplay their hand and healthy MGTOW philosophy explodes as a result, some sort of balance has to be restored. By healthy MGTOW, I am referring to the kind Rollo and Niko discussed in the last blog entry. When men as a group take our collective ball and go home, things can only radically improve. Waking up our brothers… Read more »
@johnnycomelately, The last half-dozen or so women I’ve dated I would describe as alpha widows on an AF/BB/AF trajectory. It’s just anecdotal but I do see this everywhere, including with married women. (Married women I know, and married women I dated prior to their marriage — and make plain their ongoing interest.) My theory is that it’s a function of female sexual entitlement that was expressed fully in the long-past AF phase, then frustrated by the inevitable sexual boredom of the BB phase. I don’t think my experiences reveal a lot of self-awareness or abstract thinking about Overt Hypergamy. I… Read more »
Hypergamy is and has always been there, so this is essentially about covert versus overt hypergamy, no?
What’s the benefit to women to making hypergamy covert again?
Isn’t overt/open hypergamy a completely rational decision?
In open hypergamy, alpha’s and young women win…is that not the point of hypergamy to begin with?
Aren’t beta males and women beyond child bearing years just the support staff and hired help?
Consider a girl that is with a guy who is perceived as the highest SMV guy she has access to. Say he’s being a real jerk, causing her emotional stress.
Is there an edge of how much hyper gamy can take – is there predictive measure to how long she will take shit from the guy? How to figure out that point?
Assuming the sexual market is always seeking balance, as all markets are, then it’s likely a product of too much beta provisioning.
The goldfish will grow to match the size of his environment.
1. Too many men.
2. Guaranteed BB for women. This is from beta’s marrying/supporting women, and from government legislation demanding it.
If men check out of society, the government will legislate their checking back in to maintain BB. Where does that lead? Socialism? Communism? Slavery?
How much of that does the western world have already?
What’s the benefit to women to making hypergamy covert again?
Covert hypergamy, in the long run, gains women more status.
Two reasons I think women are now following a AF/BB/AF protocol: a. women (aged 35-50), in our sexualized culture, do hang a significant element of their self-esteem on their ongoing sexual attractiveness. They have been taught and they want to prove that “they’ve still got it”, even after they’ve lost sight (in the rearview mirror) of the Wall. They do envy and they do compete (in their social construct) with pre-Wall women, and especially those Empowerrrrrred Gurrrls still in their pre-Wall/AF/promiscuous phase. b. it’s way too easy to take advantage of a BB man who thinks she loves him “just… Read more »
Women will never rein themselves in…in recorded history they never have, societal pressures such as culture, war , famine or lack of men forces them to. I think we are getting close to the peak, third wave feminism has jumped the shark, with their demands so insane they’re post satirical, not even The Onion can keep ahead of them.
What will happen is an “The Emperor has no clothes on” event, much like the peak of the Communist Red Scare when Senator Joseph R. McCarthy was told Have you no sense of decency..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqQD4dzVkwk
Rollo, when you make predictions, just make sure you don’t get too caught up in the small world of blogs and debates on this issue. None of my 20somthing, educated, Internet-Age, male friends have ever mentioned anything like your ideas to me. I don’t know many men that could ever be unplugged. Even among the people you have helped unplug, how many do you think really “get it” enough to explain it properly to the people they care about (men/women) on both sides of the debate. I’ve chosen a dental career. So at 24 my SMV is exactly on track… Read more »
“Covert hypergamy, in the long run, gains women more status.”
How? And what kind of status? Socioeconomic? More alpha sperm?
Does hypergamy care about status?
Open hypergamy is why white knighting has seemingly exploded too, right?
Beta’s trying to usurp the alpha’s, but also the beta’s attempt at keeping hypergamy in check?
What will bring down Overt Hypergamy is the Overt Rudeness modern young women display to men they do not deem worthy. Men can put up with a lot. But when they are given no respect, when they are treated with outright contempt, any man will reach a breaking point. In the past, men may not have gotten laid, but the girls at least had the manners to giggle about him behind his back. Now they’re rude and disrespectful to his face. Case in point is the Beta of the Month contest on CH. Heartiste calls this a mini-trend among women,… Read more »
I wonder . . . will some women try to rein this in themselves? With widespread open hypergamy men would never want to commit in a beta frame. Post epiphany women would have to resort to tricking the beta into believing that he’s an alpha… Which might even end up being a self fulfilling prophecy. Or… Knowing women… pretending that the target of commitment is an Alpha might trick her sub-conscience into actually being attracted to the man. Another outcome might just be that the market evens out on the male side… You start seeing the 30 year old women… Read more »
Does hypergamy care about status? Hypergamy is ALL about status. Right now, and for the past 40 years or so, we’ve had a whole host of relatively unattractive women telling all women how they are oppressed and to get out of the patriarchy. If you don’t, the problem with no name will get you and men will be your tyrants. Women went after this, attractive and unattractive alike because it brought them a new sense of power, a masculine and overt power that women crave. That power dynamic is now starting to shift back to men in the form of… Read more »
“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle. – George Orwell … However, it’s important to remember that men’s willing participation or coercion in it is still (as yet) limited by women’s capacity to attract and involve them. Men want (and yes, need) sex and will find behavioral and psychological adaptations and workarounds to get it. That may be MGTOW, prostitution, porn or an as yet developed alternative of virtual sex. It may be Red Pill awareness and applied Game, it may be a self-aligning push to pander to the most extreme elements of the… Read more »
Darnit. Rollo will you please close to link tag on my above comment?
Thank you.
Peak Hypergamy has already happened in history. A good example is Lebanon 1920 to present. In 1920 Beruit was called the Paris of the Mediterranean. It had a society and culture on par with most of Europe. Women wore the latest fashions while strolling past sidewalk cafe’s. Demographics in 1926: Christian 84% Muslim 16% By 1985 those Demographics switched with muslims at 80%+. And of course Lebanon was a Democracy with majority vote rule… so… you can guess what happened. The implications to society if you don’t make your women have children are really quite startling if you are a… Read more »
CaveClown+NARWALT: See that’s why global communities are a little funny. I work in Germany and with a guy from the US Air Force. It’s a little silly maybe, but at 27, talking with him, I realized for the first time how “Socialism” has a bad connotation for Americans. To me, hearing the word didn’t affect me more than “Democracy”. I’ve read kids (I hope) on the redpill reddit argue that capitalism is inherently redpill. YEAH!! But then I get remember that in the US, citizens have to pay money to get a university education… Just saying: In central Europe, till… Read more »
bnon August 19th, 2015 at 7:59 am “Still, I’m ambivalent to why all of this is discussed with this bad connotation. I’m the lifting young guy who tries to live his passion 40h a week, and the world around me is just overhead I interact with. Reading Rollo is enabling me to take the most out of the social back and forth. So assuming all of this holds as it stands. If I don’t plan on getting a wife and kids, don’t get in trouble with the law, and am RedPill aware – am I not in the best position… Read more »
I’ve only found your site a month ago but have read almost every single one of your posts. You’re doing a great job Rollo, keep it up. I was “redpilled” before, but your work helped me really understand the concepts I only superficially knew before. Anyways, back on topic. I don’t think it’ll take long for peak hypergamy. As you said 4 years is all it took for open hypergamy to creep out from the shadows. Look at some other trends. Gay marriage. Under a decade the policy has seen a complete reversal. Transexuals. What was considered mental illness for… Read more »
@bnon
“Is there an edge of how much hyper gamy can take – is there predictive measure to how long she will take shit from the guy? How to figure out that point?”
From life experience I would say their is no limit on a biological level. Tools are forfarthers used in social context put a limit on it. Not so much in 2015
I dislike the melodramatic associations, but Hypergamy really is akin to a Manchurian Candidate type situation. The woman is the programmed assasin, the target is some unfortunate dude is unaware of how much damage she’s capable of, and when the rifle fires and the smoke clears…..”oh, totally not my fault. The Sniper Rifle just went off.” Thus, even if you point out her own Hypergamy to a female its like trying to tell the Manchurian Candidate he’s under mind control. Disbelief is the result, and she resumes following her own internal puppetmaster. Brilliant. If a man sets about recognizing and… Read more »
“I think Divided Line is correct – there will come a state when Open Hypergamy’s power consolidation becomes too obvious and the social mechanics the Feminine Imperative has used to ensure that consolidation will be too much for women to maintain as a collective. Then what?”
Most problably a new era of sexual conservatism (“to make things right again”)…a neo-Victorian phase if you will.
TC
August 19th, 2015 at 1:46 am
Peak Hypergamy will pop when the Oculus Rift hits mass market.
Women are checkmating themselves and they aren’t even aware of it.
What might slow it down is greater betas becoming redpilled. As noted above, the Heartiste feature can be quite painful. No guy wants to spend 8-10 years of his life building a career or a business to take sloppy seconds from a DJ. And he’d especially hate to wear the horns of a cuckold, if the writers from antiquity are to be believed. It might even be happening. I wouldn’t call it a strike, yet, but I’m seeing the same story online and in my old circle (grew up in a Maryland suburb… Everyone I knew has a degree, typically… Read more »
Peak Hypergamy, coming soon:
http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/251431-ashley-madison-leak-appears-real-includes-thousands-of-government-emails
There’s little to be done, there’s no stemming the tide. It’s either accelerate the process and let it all burn so there can be a reset by 2040’s or Ride the Tiger. I was discussing with a redpilled man in his 50’s and we came to the same conclusion. 90% of men will be washed away by the storm. As you said in a previous post, save those we can, leave those we can’t. Shiva was mostly right when he said: “Even if you keep following TRM protecting your own house, all your neighbours houses will be on fire.” That’s… Read more »
“Peak Hypergamy, coming soon: http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/251431-ashley-madison-leak-appears-real-includes-thousands-of-government-emails“ HAHAHAHAHAHahahaha…er, maybe not so ha ha, thinking a bit more on it. Much like the Chinese hacker situation, this potentially is a huge extortion/exploitation risk. What the person in government to do what you want them to do, get some info on them and threaten to leak it. Maybe these government “ladies” and gents aren’t very important, maybe they are, but there’s a lot more than “peak hypergamy” to watch for here. As most of us with all our info currently sitting on Chinese servers know, the most immediate danger from the government collecting data… Read more »
I should have bolded the word immediate for emphasis above. It’s not that the people in government would never use our info for nefarious purposes, but the risk of that is less immediate.
“Women will never rein themselves in…in recorded history they never have, societal pressures such as culture, war , famine or lack of men forces them to.” http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings I keep wanting to bring this up, because people keep commenting that the feminine imperative is a mighty and unstoppable force, and we are all prostrate before it. I want to say carefully at the beginning that I don’t want to be seen as endorsing violence of any sort. But this is about understanding how culture and society works. I don’t endorse things like honor killings in any circumstances. But they do reveal… Read more »
@Lucien, now compare and contrast the very marginal incidences of “honor killings” with the rate of suicides in men world wide.
Lucien: I take the option with the world that allows women to study the field they chose.
I already shared this song on a previous post, but as far as Peak Hypergamy goes, this says it all. This is my take on the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVwl-MAlY80 A human leech, foul you crawl into my field of vision An empty speech breaking the skin of concentration Jesus Christ, you make me sick Bloated and corpulent from disregard, what you discard Your presence is leaving a scar Are you ready for the night? Put you out like the setting sun Four more words and then I’m done How the fuck did you think this would end? A filthy prick,… Read more »
No we haven’t seen peak hypergamy, but we have seen peak marriage.
Just like only the top 20% of men are visible to women, in future given that the juice will have to be worth the squeeze only the top 20% of females will be considered for marriage, the rest will have a future of pump and dumps, short flings, cats and dildos.
The only thing that will stop hypergamy will be financial/ societal collapse.
Attractive Women and Betas are very happy With the approval of women’s Viagra ! .
For the first time in history, can science alter women’s ovulation/AF,BB SYSTEM?
I mean, if a woman is married to an unattractive man , all she has to do is to take the pill AFTER AF ovulation.
Ps1
How about creating a pill that kills women’s libido during AF ovulation ?.
On the weekend I was discussing Billy Bob Thornton with my oldest daughter. She felt that BBT was the love of Angelina Jolie’s life, and the relationship with Brad Pitt lacks something. I replied that BBT was the boyfriend and Brad the dad, and she agreed.
In our terms, BBT made Jolie an alpha widow, and Brad is the BB cuck raising children who are not his, and some who are supposed to be his. Women don’t understand why Brad, an alpha in most movies, accepts being a BB and pussy whipped.
@redlight, another perfect example of why I say Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic.
100% of women would spread for Brad, doesn’t make him Alpha.
As BBs become more aware of the dynamic and delay marrying it might be the case that women will simply chuck in the towel of false pretences and solely pursue AFs. I know a lot of frustrated women currently looking for BBs and one of the significant prerequisites is money. As the comparative earning power between sexes narrows the requisite amount of income necessary to facilitate BBs has become inordinately high. The very value that defines BBs, higher comparative earning capacity, is becoming a diminishing pool. At the lower end of the socio economic spectrum it virtually doesn’t exist while… Read more »
Man I thought the “Exes and Ohhs” video link on this post was the icing on the cake, apparently no one’s clicked thru on it yet.
Sheesh!
Rollo
“@Lucien, now compare and contrast the very marginal incidences of “honor killings” with the rate of suicides in men world wide.”
Well,
I am afraid there will be no present or future cultural, societal or governmental laws (maybe scientific) to control Hypergamy/women’s ovulation .
It is up to men to adopt and learn how to navigate this newly, scientifically proven reality .
It is a very very simple experiment for men to test .
I think the true peak of hypergamy is coming in the form of the “draft” criminal code revisions being proposed by some unusually SJW-oriented uniform law drafters at the American Law Institute. These proposed laws would class as misdemeanors all “unwanted” physical contact – which could range from extremes like tackling or kicking or hitting, to first-date unsolicited hand-holding or a smooch on the cheek. The ALM drafters make no bones that they are trying, in their own special way, to crminalize conduct not conforming to “yes means yes” and “enthusiastic consent” standards. When confronted about these chilling absurd results… Read more »
“If the flow of true BBs in the upper middle and above does start to dry up a bit, I think that women may flip to a kind of cuck scenario (it won’t be called that, of course), where they marry men with less bucks in the beta bucks equation, with the socially supported expectation of non-monogamy and continued access to AF. In theory it will be bilaterally open, but the BB of course has much less opportunity. It solves the issue for at least some women, I think, if true BBs in the upper middle and above become more… Read more »
Yes means Yes is already law in many places . . . how much more f*cked can we possibly get? I am glad you brought up the misdemeanor sexual misconduct idea; without giving away too much I have also been privy to some discussions about that. Yes, law professors have actually pushed back very hard, including women. That was one of the signs for me that there is still some sense out there. In fact a lot of the older generation don’t even fully realize what’s going on.
“only then can we rebuild society.” red pill so often devolves to doom and gloom. it doesn’t have to. in a lot of ways things are better than they have ever been. body: i eat local produce from the farmers market from may to october. i walk into the grocery store and the produce options are more consistent and of higher quality than ever before. I get high quality dha from lab grown algae. I have access to the best workout science in history to reduce my gym time and boost my results. barring injury or genetic problems, a man… Read more »
What do you guys think of this article
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/magazine/the-death-of-adulthood-in-american-culture.html?_r=0
“they want to be dominated.”
OK
But it seems they say that in one sentence then proceed to be totally resist to most efforts to dominate. I realize that a select few men never have to worry about that.
I, being lazy, don’t want the fight, especially because I can’t use my hands (legal and social norms frown on a good solid slap). I really can’t be bothered to endure the verbal/psychological resistance when I am forbidden to resort to the physical.
@olympiapress
I grew up in the same area and have noticed the same.
Another sign is the rise of gay marriage, with its norms of non-monogamy or various degrees of “monogamish” arrangements — I don’t really understand the obsession with gay men in the manosphere, but I agree that open marriages and polygamy will be the goals of open hypergamy. It’s already starting actually. Ever heard of Nicole Daedone and OneTaste? Orgasmic Meditation? They promote non-monogamy as the ideal. She was married to some BB silicon valley entrepreneur that she openly cuckolded and broadcast it all over the internet. Then after the divorce she gathered a cougar harem of men…. Personally I think… Read more »
A lot of commenters here seem to follow a line of thought “how can we get women back to building proper families etc.”. Please note this is the worst frame to tackle the issue. Women are machiavellian creatures, it may be even more important to understand than Hypergamy. If you want something from a women, she can dictate the terms and will use that power for a lot of stupid shit. If, on the other hand, she needs you to have a family and children (which they all want at some point), you dictate the terms. Female machiavellism is very… Read more »
Man I thought the “Exes and Ohhs” video link on this post was the icing on the cake, apparently no one’s clicked thru on it yet.
I watched it… I wish it could be unseen. I’ve never been so repulsed by a woman in my life.
Stingray I wonder . . . will some women try to rein this in themselves? Heh. Already answered: …Hypergamy really is akin to a Manchurian Candidate type situation. The woman is the programmed assasin, the target is some unfortunate dude is unaware of how much damage she’s capable of, and when the rifle fires and the smoke clears…..”oh, totally not my fault. The Sniper Rifle just went off.” Even women married for over a decade are still hypergamous, and if some series of life events like births, deaths, job changes etc. leads her to view that Till Death Do Us… Read more »
“they want to be dominated.”
Badpainter:
But it seems they say that in one sentence then proceed to be totally resist to most efforts to dominate
They want to be dominated by a man they are attracted to.
Again, why are people bothered with stuff like polygamy? Do you fear you’ll be left with no women because of other men that marry away the good women?
Do we want to save individuals here, or do we try to improve the world?
Open Marriage is a euphemism of the FI meaning “We’ve agreed that I can cuckold my husband.”
I’m curious as to how many husbands are the initiators of an open marriage. Considering that a woman would statistically have substantially more opportunity to engage in extramarital sex, and a man would not only need to maintain his burden of performance with his wife, but also any woman he might engage with outside the marriage it strikes me that women are the primary initiators and arbiters of an open marriage arrangement.
AWALT, in other words. Yes, though I should have been more clear. I don’t mean that more and more women will rein in their own hypergamy. I mean that the attractive woman who can no longer find a man to marry her might turn on the Open Hypergamy bandwagon (turn against Team Woman) because the secret coming out so blatantly will hurt her chances of finding a alpha male to commit to her. She will lose that status of being able to find a man with options that has chosen just her. That is a powerful status marker that women… Read more »
@Rollo
“Man I thought the “Exes and Ohhs” video link on this post was the icing on the cake, apparently no one’s clicked thru on it yet.”
Somehow, I’m not finding that link. Can you direct me to where it is or repost it in this comment thread again?
“they want to be dominated.” Badpainter: “But it seems they say that in one sentence then proceed to be totally resist to most efforts to dominate. I realize that a select few men never have to worry about that.” I think “playing” dominant is bad game. They really want a truly dominant man and only playing it will probably remind them you aren’t really. If they ask for it, I think it’s even some kind of shit test. Don’t jump when asked for it. And don’t put yourself into a frame where you make yourself believe you’d have to jump.… Read more »
lh – “You can actually be lazy and your laziness will be domination.” I think in a sense this is true. Being forced to fight that fight has always resulted in my walking away. There’s nothing worth fighting for but the sake of the fight which I don’t enjoy. So my most common response to shit tests of that nature is to explain the several points of exit and invite them to either use one or shut up, stop wasting my time and harshing my mellow. This makes me an “asshole”, which I can’t deny because at that point I… Read more »
Rollo Tomassi August 19th, 2015 at 4:57 pm “I’m curious as to how many husbands are the initiators of an open marriage. Considering that a woman would statistically have substantially more opportunity to engage in extramarital sex, and a man would not only need to maintain his burden of performance with his wife, but also any woman he might engage with outside the marriage it strikes me that women are the primary initiators and arbiters of an open marriage arrangement.” One of my best friends did initiate an open LTR with his now wife (!) when both where in their… Read more »
lh, my thinking is that The Wild Oats project is a far more common situation:
http://therationalmale.com/2015/03/16/making-up-for-missing-out/
Methinks this is the video link spoken of by Mr. T:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uLI6BnVh6w
OK it’s the you go grrl version of “Under My Thumb.” With more gay models than a Blur Boy Magazine reunion. Isn’t that special.
@Badpainter:
You can’t dominate by permission.
Interestingly back in those days ca. 2000 it where the other females, girlfriends of the men around, who stopped her with a lot of hostility. They didn’t like her going for their boyfriends and she decided she didn’t want social exclusion. Nowadays with Tinder it could be different.
But in this case it worked out for my friend letting her ride the carousel until she had enough and wanted children. And at that point she wanted something from him he made very hard to get. Of course she values that commitment very highly.
Men think Ashley Madison is where they can hook up, women know better:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3070746/A-people-hookup-app-Tinder-married-WOMEN-likely-cheat.html
“Ex’s & Oh’s”: Funny how they want to be the alpha jerkboy. And terrible, it’s so fucking unattractive. Now is this Penisneid or trying to tell the men what to do?
Totally ridiculous, Tomassi. You have managed to build a cultian following based on nothing more then false paradigms, bad science, and endless sexual rhetoric, and that is somewhat amusing.
@IB, cultian? I think you have me confused with someone else:
It’s BAAaaak.
@ inanity
Don’t you have baby killers to apologize for?
“lh, my thinking is that The Wild Oats project is a far more common situation” Yes, I think so too. But the reason is the men let those women because they value the marriage higher – which gives her the option to capitalize that value given by the man against him. Men in such situations have little options. Being jealous is weakness, it doesn’t help. You can either accept it or replace her. Being ready to replace her (soft dread, spinning plates) should be enough to keep her in check though. Men not doing that and letting themselves drive into… Read more »
insanitybytes22: Is a paradigm/ideology something that can be false?
Rollo consistently provides theory and I don’t see anybody running against SJW rhetoric in an intelligent way. We’ll see which notions that are cooked up stand the test of time.
I believe we have already reached the peak. How much more blatant and extreme can it become than the examples you provide? What else is left other than for women to display their behavior and “peak” any higher than openly fucking multiple men in public?
Anonymous Reader: Even women married for over a decade are still hypergamous, and if some series of life events like births, deaths, job changes etc. leads her to view that Till Death Do Us Part man as having Displayed Lower Value, she’ll start taking chunks out of his hide. And she won’t be able to explain why, plus she’ll for sure play the “I don’t remember that!” game. Except it might not be a game, people can and do suppress memories. This describes my situation. I eventually had to do a massive DHV and Nuclear Dread to dominate. It has… Read more »
An unattractive man in an open marriage can just get paid sex. Don’t you think a string of young prostitutes is better than one aging, boring wife for 40+ years?
Point taken, but if that guy is emotionally invested in his wife pros might not be an option for him personally.
“…cultian? I think you have me confused with someone else…”
Not at all Tomassi, although Roosh does appear to be better at it it than you are. I am however, a wee bit concerned that he may get himself hurt. Just the same, he is highly entertaining and I do wish him well.
I suppose I should give you credit for not preaching this nonsense in Christ’s name. That’s something, anyway.
@Fred Flange
Thanks for that link. Obese girl fantasy-peddling is easy money these days.
Any man in a voluntary cuckold situation is getting some kind of personal payoff out of it. No amount of Red Pill can touch that kind of pathology.
How much more blatant and extreme can it become than the examples you provide?
This comes immediately to mind.
@ lh
she married him 10 years later
That’s because she hit the wall and wasn’t getting as much response from the other guys like she used to. She got babies rabies and needed someone “dependable” to help raise them. She’s too busy now while her kids are young to flirt with other guys. Wait until the kids are teenagers.She’ll grow out her “mom haircut, drop some weight, tone up at the gym, and give away bj’s to 20-something gym rats.
Kind of interesting that the Ashley Madison hack goes live after I posted this.
The sheer volume of men seeking a ‘workaround’ to the consequences of marrying into the modern plan for Hypergamy (half of all marriages are clinically “sexless”) is a testament to men adapting to that environment.
http://gawker.com/family-values-activist-josh-duggar-had-a-paid-ashley-ma-1725132091
This Ashley Madison hack is going to keep people on their toes. http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-denies-ashley-madison-use-after-email-link-1-3863277 As to the notion of Peak Hypergamy; it will get way worse before it gets better. One thing to keep in mind is SMV changes as the population demographics change. Most first world nations are aging; meaning over time there will be fewer young women under 30 while the over 65 group will increase. The sense of entitlement of under 30 women will be off the charts, ala “Children of Men”. Simply by being more scarce it will inflate their SMV. What now is a 5-6 will… Read more »
@ Rollo Tomassi
I’m curious as to how many husbands are the initiators of an open marriage.
My experience is that it is [almost] all of them. You’d be surprised at how many guys think that they can score new pussy. I believe that the typical scenario goes like: Guy gets married, sex starts to fade in quality and/or quantity, delusionally thinks that he is a sex god, propose open marriage, wife reluctant, works hard at persuading, finally succeeds, wife knocks ’em out of the park, hubby strikes out repeatedly. Divorce.