Post Selection

post-selection

Anonymous Reader on Dalrock’s thread had an interesting observation about women’s (wives’) dumbfounded response to discovering that the Beta chump they believed would be entirely optionless and adrift after they divorced, in fact, had far more SMV capital than her solipsism would allow her to acknowledge:

So, dear Lisa, you (a) had a husband but (b) decided you did not want him anymore and now (c) other women do want him? Whose fault is this, again? Great display of a version of preselection that ought to be called “post selection” (if Rollo or Heartiste or someone else hasn’t already thought of that).

Reminds me of a divorce I saw from a moderate distance a few years ago. Wife got a couple of promotions at her work, while her salesman husband just plodded along with the usual feast or famine of that business. She apparently got “married” to her job, putting in long hours serving the situational alpha men she worked for. Then at home made up for the long hours by showering attention on the kids while stiffarming “whats-his-name”. When he had an affair she was, by all accounts, surprised. When he had a second affair she divorced him. Both were churchgoing, and I agree that she had Bible-based grounds for divorce, there was no question he was cheating. But he wasn’t the roving-eye type for the first 5 to 10 years of marriage, so perhaps a certain lack of something tempted him to cheat? What could it have been?

Familiarity breeds contempt, but it also breeds complacency.

I’ve stated in many prior thread that familiarity, comfort, rapport, vulnerability and security are all anti-seductive attributes when it come to women’s sexual response. I’m not saying those elements aren’t intrinsically good or bad, just that men shouldn’t buy the boilerplate sexual filibustering of women who would have them believe they are in anyway arousal cues for women.

As Roissy’s maxim states – “‘Gina tingles are born in the defensive crouch.”

Iron Rule of Tomassi #3

Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. She will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, fuck the shit out of you and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife comes home early from work – women who want to fuck will find a way to fuck. The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.

If a girl is that into you she’ll have sex with you regardless of ASD or having her friends in the room videotaping it at a frat party. All women can be sluts, you just have to be the right guy to bring it out in them, and this happens before you go back to her place. If you have to plead your case cuddling and spooning on the bed or getting the occasional peck on the cheek at the end of the night, you need to go back to square one and start fresh.

The problem most husbands and LTR live-in boyfriends experience in this respect is that there is no opportunity for a fresh start once that pattern of familiarity and comfort has been established and is what’s expected from him.

This principle is easy for us to understand from the man’s side, but what about the woman’s?

Anonymous’ observations here tell a broader story. Dal’s quick-hit post and the article he linked there is well worth the read, but it essentially illustrates a common regret women are forced to acknowledge when they’ve opted out of a relationship, or were opted out of by their men as a result of their protracted dissatisfaction with those women – they simply cannot fathom that the Beta man they cut loose has a sexual market value that other women would not just appreciate, but jump at, far quicker than they imagined.

Considering that 70%+ of all divorces are initiated by women, women opting out is usually the case. If you track along with the time line I presented in Preventive Medicine you can also see that this opt out (first divorce) window usually coincides with the time a man is (should be) experiencing his SMV peak.

After 7 or so years of marriage the familiarity, the routine and the comfort a woman expects from her statistically Beta husband are cemented for her. Reliable, sensible, comforting and responsible make for a great security prospect, but a boring ‘fuck prospect’. Unless that woman is casually, but frequently put into the defensive crouch (via passive dread) that man’s Archetype is set in her mind for her. His behavior is predictable and familiar, and boring to the point that she suspects no woman but her would ‘tolerate’ him.

In fact this perception is reinforced for her, not just by a fem-centric culture, but her husband’s constant self-deprecating praise of how “lucky he is to have a woman like her who’d put up with a guy like him. Haha, LOL.” In spite of all this supplication, women still affirm that man as the unexciting Beta chump who she subconsciously pegs would be entirely optionless in the SMP were (when) he to be re-released back into the wild.

Women want to get with a man that other men want to be, and other women want to fuck.

This is an easy maxim for a woman who’s single, but it takes on new imperatives when that man is fighting against the familiarity and comfort elements that come with long term monogamy and living together. That familiar complacency combined with Hypergamic social expectations makes women doubt that the man they thought other women might compete for has morphed into an optionless schlub only she would have the patience to constantly tolerate.

One of the reasons I advise against men and women shacking up is because the comfort and regularity of that living situation eventually becomes a disincentive for women to maintain a consistent sexual desire and urgency for the man she’s paired with. Women are at their ‘sexual best’ when men keep them at arms reach, and this is primarily due to the anxiety she experiences in the doubt over whether she’ll be able to consolidate on an optimized Hypergamy with that guy.

Post Selection

As Anonymous hints at, there is a form of social proof a ‘released’ man enjoys once he’s been cut from women’s Hypergamous equation. To understand how this works we need to remember that Hypergamy is fundamentally rooted in doubt:

The Abdication Imperative

Hypergamy is rooted in doubt. Hypergamy is an inherently insecure system that constantly tests, assesses, retests and reassesses for optimal reproductive options, long-term provisioning, parental investment, and offspring and personal protection viability in a potential mate. Even under the most secure of prospects hypergamy still doubts. The evolutionary function of this incessant doubt would be a selected-for survival instinct, but the process of hypergamy’s assessment requires too much mental effort to be entirely relegated to women’s subconscious. Social imperatives had to be instituted not only to better facilitate the hypergamous process, but also to reassure the feminine that men were already socially pre-programmed to align with that process.

Dumping a woman is the highest form of social proof for a man.

In no uncertain terms he demonstrates to her that he has the supreme confidence he can find another woman with better prospect than her. Even if this isn’t the pretext of the breakup, this is the message in the medium that she understands; she doesn’t measure up to his expectations.

This then is further compounded by the unconscious knowledge that it should be women who are socially in charge of the sexual selection and approval process. When a man dumps a woman he demonstrably takes that agency away from her.

However, the effectiveness of that social proof for the dumped woman is only proportional to the doubt that he may have been a better, more optimal Hypergamic choice for her. We understand the effectiveness even a fabricated perception of preselection has on women, but depending on the psychological impact a man has, post-selection and the uncertainty of his long term fitness can be so powerful it can create an Alpha Widow of her.

Hypergamous doubt makes women creatures of constant comparison. Thus, when (if) she makes another intimate connection after that breakup, the new guy is held next to the comparison of the previous one. Once that comparison is made, that post-selection value of the previous guy (or lack thereof) becomes reinforced for her.

Starting Over

Women have a biological imperative to restart the Hypergamic process far more rapidly than men when they’re younger and closer to their SMV peak. They have more time to capitalize on it.

However, once they are on the opposite side of the Wall and men are ascending to their own SMV peak, “getting over” the relationship is equated with remarriage because men have the SMV advantage. That previous husband or LTR lover has the power of selection and confirmation she no longer holds as she did in her youth.

Women have far less marketability and prospect to restart that Hypergamic process once this agency exchanges hands with men. They’ve lost on a perceived long-term investment. Thus her brooding fixates on his ease of finding a new mate, with his remarriage being the context of finalizing that break with her.

I should also add that rarely is consideration is given to the incentives and reasons for the breakup whatsoever on her part. Convenient social conventions aid her in thinking she is blameless in the circumstances that led to the split and he is heartless for “getting over’ her at all, much less quickly. We are left to presume that it’s he who should suffer the same or more. He should be pining for her, he should be regretting the split.

It’s far easier for a man to move on with new women when his benchmark for intimacy was set by a sexless marriage to an authoritarian, shaming, shrew. Maybe it’s that thought that really hurts – it was easy to get over her because the opt out for him is sooooo much better a prospect than a lifetime of having to untangle her hangups about him.

Final Thought

Bear in mind this post-selection dynamic is only effective insofar as a man’s SMV can be actualized outside of his previous relationship.

Women only contemplate whether a man has moved on from her quickly when they care to concern themselves with it. If it was she who initiated the breakup with her Beta husband/LTR women are simply indifferent to what the guy is doing a year or so down the road.

Nothing is more satisfying to a woman than to believe she’s figured a man out using her mythical feminine intuition. This works in a positive sense when a man leads her to believe she’s genuinely got inside his head, but it also works in the self-convincing negative sense when she dismisses a guy who no longer qualifies for her long term (or short term sexual) hypergamic interests.

The satisfying feminine indignation comes from convincing herself he was never really as invested as he led her to believe he was. Thus the loss of investment is converted to betrayal and becomes a source of self-righteousness despite any circumstance she contributed to the break herself.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

304 comments on “Post Selection

  1. In relation to the original point of this article (not to detract from the lively discussion going on here), I’m also thinking of something I read on TRM a long while back, and it might have some relationship to this issue.

    Back in the “Topping from the Bottom” post, this point is made:

    “The Feminine Imperative defines for men that his ridiculous sexual identity is who he really is, but for women her sexual identity is a role she plays that insulates her from her real ’empowered’ identity.”

    So, I’m taking this to mean that when a woman defines you as a loser, to her, you REALLY are a loser. You’re put in a pigeonhole and that’s it, full stop, end of story. That’s your designation for all time.

    However, at the same time a women defines her role to be fluid in order to take advantage of changing circumstances (richer, better looking, fitter. more dominant man). Therefore, she allows her inner definition of herself to be mutable, changing as fits her story at the time.

    As a result, your bouncing back romantically with another woman breaks the role she put you in, and conflicts with her sense of power over the relationship, even after it’s been concluded. Also, bouncing back is a demonstration of power, albeit to a lesser degree than you would have if you decided to walk first. It’s that “I didn’t realize he had it in him” realization after the fact which causes her to doubt herself.

    Just a theory.

  2. @YaReally
    Roosh came up with a strategy which actually counters the left! All you have to do is say you’re muslim and suddenly you’re left alone. This shit gets weirder and weirder…

  3. @kfg

    I posted the video of John the Other to show that even Canadian anti-SJWs can be taken in by the bullshit.

    In all fairness, John the Other has generally come across as way too emotional and not all that bright in my estimation.

  4. “It has been for about the last five centuries.”

    When Mo declared that only the original is the word he wasn’t just pulling bullshit out of his ass, that time. That is actually the soundest bit of theology in Islam.

    Even before it was published the King James Bible was already notorious for not saying what the Bible says.

  5. @YaReally

    Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Hope I’ve fleshed this out a bit more.

    “Polygyny (multiple wives) is the only stable form of marriage available today in the US.”

    I think my main issue with what I’ve seen of Polygyny is that once you sign any kind of a contract where the girl knows “it will be difficult for him to leave me”, she has no incentive to stay hot anymore. That Sister Wives guy on TV has hideous wives lol but why wouldn’t he, he can’t LEAVE any of them, esp having houses etc with them?

    With a pLTR the girls know you can bail at any time with zero consequence (until you have actual kids and then you have some lock-in, but until that point there’s nothing not even cohabitation laws that can get you), so they have incentive to not slack off.

    But our perspective is probably different because I’m guessing for you having kids outside of marriage is a no-no whereas for me it would be optimal. I think a mother/father dynamic is important to raise a healthy kid but I also think a depressed father and a mother who has no attraction for said father is a pretty bleak household too.

    I believe that children need to be raised by both biological father and mother living together with the kids. Period. Every study I’ve seen bears this out and in my opinion it’s child abuse for a woman to nuke the family and remove Dad from her children’s *everyday* lives. You and any of the other guys here can prove this. Think back to childhood and recall a time when your Dad made you feel really special, a really good memory for you. If he’s still alive, call him up and ask him if he remembers that. Odds are that he won’t. Because “quality time” is a function of quantity time. A kid is like a baby bird. When they’re needy the head comes up out of the nest and they’re looking around. If Dad isn’t there, the head goes back down, but after a while of no dad, it stops coming up. IMO, that’s child abuse.

    The nature of a polygynous marriage places all the incentives on staying in the marriage, but it also places negative incentives on leaving. I advocate using a binding contract in equity (a Marital Covenant) to govern the household. This is another issue that drives Christians nuts (ESPECIALLY Christian women), because they say “My husband is supposed to love me like Christ loves the Church!” They say that because they don’t know what the Bible says about that. Specifically, at Revelation 3:19 Jesus said “Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline.” A rebuke is verbal. Discipline is physical, so we’re talking corporal punishment here. Mention that to Christian women and they go snakeshit. Most Christian women can’t even handle the idea of submission.

    So, part of the contract is a non-consensual consent from the wives, giving the husband permission to discipline them at his discretion in whatever way he wants, up to and including corporal punishment. Don’t know how well that would work for a secular marriage, but for Christians it’s supported by the Book.

    “One mom is the stay at home”

    How is this determined? I guess if you have like 5 kids there’s enough shit to do raising them that the other wives wouldn’t view her as getting “the easy job” lol VS if there was only one kid or no kids where it’s like “bitch get out there and earn us some money like we have to!” lol

    This is why I advocate knocking up all of the women with at least one child. All the wives pass the kids around, all of them nurse all the kids, all of them bond with all the kids. And the SAHM isn’t just chasing children. She’s cooking (everybody else takes their lunch to save money), cleaning, doing laundry, doing the shopping and in general managing the home. It’s a big job if done right. That means when the others come home at the end of the day they aren’t swamped with chores like they would be if they were a single mom. That’s another incentive to stay in the marriage. As for cleanup in the evening, many hands make for light work and everything is done quickly for more free time and family time.

    As to which one does it? Which one is best suited for the job? Which one makes the least amount of money? Which one had the most recent baby? Lots of questions, it’s just a matter of consensus on that, but the husband makes the final decision if the wives can’t agree. Better for the wives to agree and buy into the arrangement.

    But aside from the Primary, all the girls in the harem should know that fighting with each other is grounds for expulsion whereas if they play nice then they have some new high-quality BFFs to do girl-talk with while the man gets to go off and do his thing like you’re describing.

    They fight, you spank. Explosive sex follows if done right. (calm, cool, not in anger). You think they won’t rat each other out when you’re alone with one of them?

    “Women compete, and even though he’s made a commitment, they’re still competing with each other for his attention. The only way they can do that is to compete at giving him what he wants. By being sweet, feminine and sexually available.”

    As someone who knows about this shit, what do you think went wrong with the guy on that Sister Wives show? Presumably they were off in fat-city before the show. They DO seem to be relatively friendly from the episodes of it I’ve seen (I’m not hardcore into it I just knew a chick who loved the show) but like, there’s something to be said about having 5 ugly wives instead of 5 hot fuckbuddies lol Like what do you think he could have done differently to prevent that? Because he seems to have followed what you’re describing, but he still ended up with 5 behemoths that I don’t think anyone would want all in a bed at once, I don’t think there’s a bed that could support that much weight lol

    First, I’ve never seen the show, but I know they’re Mormon, not Christian. He may have soaked up a lot of beta stuff from his church, I don’t know. However, I suspect that in the reality show the guy isn’t getting them all in bed together. Not a lot of guys will tell a wife that her ass is getting too wide and she needs to do something about it, but women are NOT shy about that kind of thing. And in a marriage like that they compete because what they want is their husband’s attention, (and this is important) both inside the marriage and outside the marriage.

    As long as the wives can set up walls between themselves, they can mitigate their competition. I’m not saying the policy should be one common bed for everyone (because they’ll still need- at least occasionally -one on one time) but stripping them all down together tears down the walls and forces them to hold each other accountable through competition. If you want to call that Machiavellian, go ahead.

    Women don’t want a man that would cheat, but they do want a man who could cheat because it validates them. Get a few attractive women together competing for their husband’s attention in public and other women are attracted to him. If they flirt with him that validates them. Positive feedback loop. If he flirts with them, you’ve got some soft dread. Drama, hamsterbation and the predictable results.

    I think my big argument against it from what you’re saying would primarily be time investment. With a pLTR situation you are free to come and go as you like and just focus on yourself MGTOW style, and girls are welcome to join or leave whenever they decide they don’t like your rules.

    What I’m describing is just taking it a bit further and for the ones who decide they do like your rules, everyone is getting more out of it. The women want your attention, but with polygyny they still don’t have it locked in to them the way they would in monogamy. They still have to compete.

    Whereas with the polygyny setup you’re all locked in literally till death do you part, so it’s a HUGE undertaking and you’d have to SERIOUSLY screen the girls to make sure you won’t regret having them in your dynamic (like any reality show where they put 5 girls in a house together and there’s INEVITABLY one girl who’s a bitch and it’s all drama for the whole group from there, except if she was a sister wife who snuck under the radar with her crazy, you’d all be stuck with her forever…although there’s 5 of you to hide the body lol)

    That’s why the contract has dispute resolution built in, but keep in mind that there is NOTHING to stop anyone from walking away. Remember, the state cannot recognize this as a marriage. The husband could walk away from all of them with nothing more at risk than child support, but if any individual woman wanted to walk, it isn’t a good position for her. Therefore, her best option is to buckle down and get with the program. She’s got her sisters to help her and she’s got your pimp-hand to remind her why she should.

    But then we’re talking about settling down and raising kids, so I admit I’m still viewing it from a single guy who doesn’t want kids yet perspective. I don’t have “kids in a pLTR situ” figured out yet so this is definitely food for thought. I don’t think a lot of guys would logically want to go from no marriage and responsibility to 5 marriages and 5 kids and 10x the responsibility VS being single (it would be like going from playing Mario to playing Starcraft having to suddenly micromanage an army)

    Again, I write almost exclusively for Christians, and one of the fundamental principles of Biblical morality is sex is only supposed to happen within a marriage, and marriage is a very much “til death do us part” arrangement. But, your comment about micromanaging an army isn’t correct. Each wife has her own area that she administers. If you don’t like the way she’s taking it, tell her to change course. As the kids grow the older ones help with the younger ones and the work gets spread out. Believe me, the system works.

    I’d still like to figure out something that would be feasable for the average guy who wants to ultimately have just one mom one dad and 1 or 2 kids in a stable home.

    Unfortunately this isn’t a problem that can be solved by Game. Mitigated, yes. Solved, no. I am of the belief that women are placed in an impossible position and tempted beyond what they are able to handle by the modern legal system that empowers them to destroy that which is most valuable: their family. As you have already stated, the structure itself has been destroyed and monogamy is dead. Sorry.

    “And, getting them all naked together is beneficial. It wrecks their attempts at creating a pecking order and because they’re always competing with each other (they can’t help it) the husband gets some really wild sex as they try to outdo each other.”

    IDEALLY it would be great if they all became friends but realistically I think keeping them separated would be easier for most average guys until they developed enough frame control to manage having multiple girls with them at once, but something to work towards and probably something I’ll be playing with in the next few years because I’m curious about the dynamics of making that work.

    Again, I am coming from a Christian frame. If the women spend time in devotions and prayer together and have to work together as family members, they will become friends. With a husband who enforces discipline in the home AND provides comfort to all the wives, yes, their relationship becomes closer. This is also why I advocate having all of them bear children and all the children passed around. In terms of discipline with the children, all the Moms are Mom to all the children. Husband deals with policy issues. Stripping them all naked at least occasionally is a continuation of that.

    However, I do see your point about the average guy managing to bridge the gap from spinning plates to spinning one big plate with multiple entrees on it. I know polygynous families that range from separate houses to one giant shared bed, and the continuum goes from beta to uber-alpha. If a woman is attracted to a guy she will find a way to fuck him. Her level of attraction decides how willing to she is to share him (leaving out any bisexual interest). Still, the structure alone will make any guy more alpha, but he has to have rock-solid state and frame control. That is the bare minimum.

    “The women know that calling 911 for a DV call will probably result in the other wives telling the cops she’s lying.”

    Another interesting point. Is it more work/effort than placing a bunch of surveillance cameras around the house? I don’t know lol but the logic of what you’re saying makes sense. One of my big worries about having kids these days, with the insanely cavalier attitude girls have toward false accusations here in 2015, is at ANY point when your wife has a bad day she can end your life basically, career, freedom, etc. with a lie.

    Again, they compete, and one of the areas they are forced to compete in is loyalty to both their husband and to their family. Once the dynamic is set, the family adopts an “us versus them” mentality. This is important, especially within the Christian community. I’ve been in relationships like this, but that was before I became a Christian. A while back (I do community theater) I got a few women together and we decided to do some improv at a church. We role-played being a family with a husband and three wives. We hashed out what everyone’s character was and after that it was total improv. Everyone had to play off whatever anyone else said, but if they were asked a Bible question they had to say “My husband will speak for me on that.”

    It blew my mind just how much they got into their roles (none of them are Christians). As the hostility toward us increased (we were eventually invited to leave and not come back), the dynamic became “us vs. them” in a big way. And they got outrageous in some of the things they said. It was one of the most interesting experiences I’ve had in recent memory. I suspect that within the secular community that wouldn’t be nearly as strong because of the acceptance of LGBT issues and relationships combined with political correctness. Still, the dynamic exists with respect to multiple wives reinforcing each other’s loyalty.

    Back to the point though, what does one woman gain from calling the cops? She can’t have the other women thrown out, there won’t be a divorce so she gains no points there, she probably won’t get custody of her children, so what’s the point of introducing SERIOUS drama into the home, pissing off her husband and all the other women? What would motivate the other women to support her in a lie like that? I’m not claiming women are logical, but they do respond to incentives. What’s in it for the others to support her? Nothing.

  6. @Rollo

    Housekeeping help, please. I left out or broke a bold tag. In the previous comment

    “If you want to call that Machiavellian, go ahead.”

    Should be

    If you want to call that Machiavellian, go ahead.

    Would you fix that for me?

    Thanks.

  7. And,

    I’ll be playing with in the next few years because I’m curious about the dynamics of making that work.

    Should be

    I’ll be playing with in the next few years because I’m curious about the dynamics of making that work.

    Sorry about that.

  8. @Sun Wukong:

    To be even more fair, even though JtO is nominally anti-SJW, he fully accepts the tenets of Progressive Equalitarianism as his foundational philosophy and rejects anything that contradicts it, such as Evo-Psych.

    i.e., he is in favor of Social Justice itself, and only opposes the SJWs because they are not truly equalitarian. Blame Canada I guess.

    A lot of the more masculinist MGTOW are just about ready to take him out behind the woodshed and explain the facts of life to him with a good piece of hickory.

    There’s nothing like a good piece of hickory.

  9. kfg – “God is not a biblical language word. It is, in fact, a pagan German word.”

    I would argue Christianity after say about 312 AD is no longer a semitic religion but rather a Romano-Germanic faith inspired by, and rooted in Judaism. Much like when we speak of Western Civilization we mean the current Northern/Central European version stemming from a Grecco-Latin cultural/legal/philosophical/technical base which is derivative of a distinctly non-Western Egyptian/Semitic root.

  10. @Rollo Tomassi
    I think you’re right about Roosh. But maybe somebody can use his strategy in a different manner. Maybe play it straight instead of trolling for attention. Maybe Muslim MRAs are the future?

    1. @lh
      No worries brother

      @Mikephil
      “However, at the same time a women defines her role to be fluid in order to take advantage of changing circumstances (richer, better looking, fitter. more dominant man). Therefore, she allows her inner definition of herself to be mutable, changing as fits her story at the time.”

      Nice

  11. @Havok:

    The strategy is sufficiently advanced that GamerGate has abstracted the principle in the character of Vivian James.

  12. Breaking News from Toronto :
    Ayatollah Roosh issued a ‘fatwa” declaring Jihad against “white feminists” .

    (white men exempted due to mutual interests ! The enemy of my enemy is my friend? For now).

  13. In the media, The Manosphere is full of religious fanatics, white supremacists, and now, crazy Muslims to complete the picture.
    As they say,
    With friends like these, who needs enemies.

  14. @Rollo

    He’s inspiring so much indignation right now. Canada better issue a flood warning seeing as panties won’t be enough to hold back all that moisture.

  15. The wife getting promotions was the problem.

    Yeah, I think that was the case. She saw her own value as higher than the salesman she was married to, plus she was spending all her work day around men in expensive suits who projected a more powerful image than her husband.

    Or to put it another way, she saw her professional value and thus her MMV as suddenly higher than his, confused it with her SMV (as women often do) and developed some degree of contempt for him. Frozen out of bed, he went and found a woman who valued him as a man, unlike his wife who no longer did. Two affairs, one divorce, she kept the kids and the house.

    But as I noted at Dalrock’s, the salesman remarried. The woman didn’t.
    And the women I’ve heard talking about it “just can’t understand” why a 40-something divorcee’ who got cheated on can’t remarry. Female projection…

    She got pretty lonely after the last of the children left home, I’m told. One could say, “Well, she shoulda thought of that before rejecting her husband”, and that would just cue TFH.

  16. Rollo
    …to women, men are monuments and women are chameleons.

    That’s good. That’s very good.

  17. Sorry to say it, but, I feel schadenfreude for the unholy alliance between Roosh’s Islamic warriors and the white man’s warriors! Ugly feminists loves it too.

    1. “…to women, men are monuments and women are chameleons.”

      The burden of performance

      HAMLET: To be, or not to be–that is the question:
      Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
      The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
      Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
      And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep–
      No more–and by a sleep to say we end
      The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
      That flesh is heir to. ‘Tis a consummation
      Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep–
      To sleep–perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub,
      For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
      When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
      Must give us pause. There’s the respect
      That makes calamity of so long life.
      For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
      Th’ oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely
      The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
      The insolence of office, and the spurns
      That patient merit of th’ unworthy takes,
      When he himself might his quietus make
      With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
      To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
      But that the dread of something after death,
      The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
      No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
      And makes us rather bear those ills we have
      Than fly to others that we know not of?
      Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
      And thus the native hue of resolution
      Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
      And enterprise of great pitch and moment
      With this regard their currents turn awry
      And lose the name of action. — Soft you now,
      The fair Ophelia! — Nymph, in thy orisons
      Be all my sins remembered.

  18. Rollo,
    Roosh mentioned in his form he was a Shiaa Muslem.
    Please do search for Mutaa Marriage in Shiaa Islam. (to understand his background) .

  19. I don’t know if Maddy is a troll or not but that post inspired the most profound sense of hopelessness in me. I don’t even know what to say. What a sick fucking joke our species is. Somebody just burn the whole festering mess to the ground already.

  20. @fleezer

    “don’t legally invest in her unless you know for certain that you own her.”

    You’ll never own anybody, so really, there’s no point in legally investing ever, not in any instance. I don’t know why you’d want to own anybody anyway. I’d settle for just finding somebody who is a relatively decent human being. Apparently that’s too much to ask for though. Oh well.

  21. “I don’t know if Maddy is a troll or not but that post inspired the most profound sense of hopelessness in me. I don’t even know what to say.”

    Maddy might not even be a girl. And if she is, she is a very disturbed one.

  22. “And if she is, she is a very disturbed one.”
    Or just making stuff up to fuck with everyone. Which would also mean she is disturbed, but in a different way.

  23. @ Divided

    Don’t let your cynicism get the best of you.

    It doesn’t matter if Maddy is a troll or not. There are plenty of women who are Alpha Widows.

    The cynicism and hatred/disgust comes — ultimately — from a sense of rejection.

    Before I was unplugged, here’s one example from my own experience:

    I had ONE-itis, and I was an angry mess. Friendzoned myself with this girl (I thought she friendzoned me, but friendzoning is something you do to yourself through how you interact with women)…and would work myself into a lather.

    Her ex boyfriend, who she was absolutely nuts about, worked a minimum wage job at a videogame store and still lived at home with his parents, and he was well into his 30’s.

    He dumped her for a girl that was 19 years old. Almost 10 years younger than her at the time.

    I would get so pissed off. In my mind I was good enough. Good looking guy, minimum wage job too, so I didn’t see why that should disqualify me, plus I was working on building up my own business that was going to make a lot more money —

    — and I even have a big dick. Of course she’d never know that because she openly rejected me when I asked her out. And then I’d get pissed thinking about the best years of my life passing me by, thinking I’m an attractive guy and should be having all this sex, and just spending my time whacking off —

    I was a PERFECT specimen of being plugged in, with all the anger and cynicism and sense of injustice to go along with it.

    She was an “Alpha Widow” and couldn’t get over this guy who I ultimately thought was a loser. I thought I was ‘way better’ than him, better looking, had more going for me, and was way more supportive of her, etc. —

    — but that’s all Negotiated Desire.

    When I fully accepted that, the anger started to slowly vanish. May the best man win, right?

    I was just pissed because he sexually aroused her and I didn’t. It could be any number of reasons. Could be that he was running way tighter Game. Could be genetic, as far as her preferences go. He dressed completely differently from me. I thought he looked like a douchebag. She thought he looked hot.

    I’ll never know. But it doesn’t matter. You just have to know when it’s like trying to get blood from a stone, get over it immediately and move on to greener pastures. No matter what you do or even if you’re an Apex Alpha, not every girl in the world is going to like you. It isn’t anything personal.

    But trust me, that is only one example. I have tons more that made me feel the same way you do.

    I was disgusted with it all.

    But I will say that with the limited experiences I HAVE had, it’s good to be Alpha.

    When you’re on the other side of the fence getting a blowjob, when you’re on the other side with a woman fawning over you and treating you like a king —

    — then it starts to make sense. And the memories of rejection and injustice and how frustratingly unfair the world seems start to fade too.

    I’m still struggling. I only have very few Alpha experiences under my belt, but I at least have some.

    Your mindset is the real kingpin here. Everything else follows after that. So if you’re holding onto cynicism and anger and how unfair everything is, that becomes your frame of reference.

    Trust me: you don’t want that as your frame of reference. You don’t want cynicism as your mental point of origin.

    The cynicism is trying to protect you from rejection. From the pain of feeling inferior, from feeling outclassed and overrun by the free-for-all. Women go with whoever the best guy is, whatever that means to her.

    If you’ve been left in the dust, cynicism is a way of blunting the pain as well as protecting you from experiencing it in the future.

    But it isn’t protecting you. It’s hurting you. With cynicism and disgust as a mental point of origin, it’ll only make it that much harder to get what you really want.

    Every guy here would love a bombshell woman sucking his dick and worshiping him, even if it was just for one night. Just to have the experience of being genuinely desired and genuinely feeling like a desirable man. And having a great time.

    The cynicism/pain/disgust/etc., IMO, comes from imagining a scenario like that, and believing that it’s impossible for you. That it’ll never happen for you.

    Then the anger sets in. And you’ll hate every couple you see. You’ll hate every guy at a party that’s hitting it off with all the girls. It could even get so bad that watching porn makes you feel like throwing up or punching a hole in a wall.

    And you’ll be bothered by girls like Maddy, whether they’re trolls or not.

    It doesn’t matter if they’re trolls or not, because TO YOU it’s real. TO YOU, it’s supporting evidence that the world sucks and that women are completely fucked, and that there’s nothing you can do about it.

    But there IS something you can do about it.

    You’re burning in the hellfire with the rest of us guys who are unplugging. Just know that if you can pick yourself up and get back in the game and are willing to put the work in, change can and will happen for you.

    There is another side. Even if every girl in the world is like Maddy — and basically, they all are like that — it just means it’s a challenge. It doesn’t mean it’s insurmountable.

    If you can’t beat them, join them. Women are playing the game.

    BTW, my body is covered in scars from cutting myself out of frustration over this shit, and I was cynical to the point of making a suicide attempt back in January.

    I have not had an easy time swallowing The Red Pill. I was about as far down the rabbit hole as a man can fall with this stuff and I literally almost died over it.

    Trust me: I don’t think I had it harder than other people just because I was abused growing up, but having been abused and having a shitty life in general as far as connections/love goes for as long as I can remember, it really triggered one thing:

    My sense of INJUSTICE.

    And that’s what I’m getting from you here. A sense of injustice. And I’m telling you that is one of the most major things that will hold you back if you let it consume you.

    I felt like after all I’d been through, I deserved to be ‘loved’ more than anyone, like all I wanted was at least a hug or some semblance of human warmth. I felt like I wasn’t asking for much. Not much at all. It didn’t come along and after a long time of frustration I tried to kill myself.

    And now at 26 years old I have arthritis in my right hand from all the damage I did to it by using it to punch doors and holes in the wall.

    But that’s in the past now. It’s been a pisser of a time but I’m finally — slowly — starting to come out of it.

    Everything I’ve been through doesn’t mean that I have to put in any less effort or that I get any more breaks than guys who didn’t have the issues I’ve had.

    Women are women. They are the way they are. Nothing about you and nothing you can ever do will change that in the slightest.

    But once you accept that, you can get your head back in the Game and have a chance for a better future than you ever could even IMAGINE for yourself when you were plugged in.

    That’s what we’re all here for.

    Sorry to go on a rant there, and sorry for misreading you if I did. But I honestly hope you can get over your cynicism and realize one thing:

    That you DESERVE BETTER THAN THAT. You owe it to your own self to let go of that mentality and accept the reality that a better future is possible for you.

    Is society fucked? Maybe. But are you personally fucked? No. Stick around and grow and develop with the rest of us. A lot of guys here are ready and willing to help and give advice if you’re really having a hard time.

  24. Rollo, I am one of the few Muslims (Sufi), that I know of, that routinely reads and posts on Dalrock, here and ROK. I like all of you and I have no idea about any backstory of Rooshes failings or issues, and I am long-married so I do not do the PUA stuff. Been RP since my divorce years ago (and subsequent remarriage).

    However, I will say, what Roosh is doing is a perfect inversion of political correctness that even when presented as almost farcical, will have leverage within SJW and Canadian government circles. SJWs have no idea how to handle us Muslims and I have enjoyed putting “Double Blue Pill” spins on their issues in my own professional and personal life (“I’m sorry dear white female SJW, but we value our little girls too much to abort them…”).

    SJWs will be cautious about even KIDDING about Roosh’s “Islam” (whatever latent amount or practice he or his family ever had), because even a side comment noting that he is making what they believe is a “mockery” of it, will bring out the “wait a minute, what problem do you have with THAT issue in Islam”, similar to someone kidding about Rachell Doezel in American culture– “I mean, she doesn’t even SOUND black” says one to a black American, “Excuse me…what do WE “sound” like”

    He is, also to be fair, quite legit in claiming and framing the narrative that “rich White woman attacks man of color on street”…by ANY OTHER means test, Roosh and those like him, are considered “people of color” by SJWs (let us grant that Roosh is not a White Persian or Arab like many Muslims are, he definitely is not white like Bashir Assad (Arab) or many Persians, who are very white.

    I have no idea what game he is playing under, under, underNEATH all this, but using Islam to double back on the white progressives and liberals of Canada is fair game—especially in a world where White Women have been able to play the “victim” card ad absurdum for so long.

  25. “What a sick fucking joke our species is.”

    Our species is the only species that can even think that. Think about it.

    Then go out and examine the behaviour of other species. Start with ants. You will find that the religion you don’t like that you are trying to build doesn’t like them very much.

    Then . . . lions, tigers and bears (Oh my!), only reverse the order.

  26. “Then . . . lions, tigers and bears (Oh my!), only reverse the order.”

    And fishes. The largest ones, if they were capable of higher level thought processes, might be thinking something along the lines of, “The world is just”. And the middle sized fishes would think, “Sometimes the world is just”. And the small fishes would be thinking, “the world is not just.”

  27. @softek

    “It’s hurting you. With cynicism and disgust as a mental point of origin, it’ll only make it that much harder to get what you really want.”

    You’re definitely right about cynicism being a self defeating defense mechanism. I just don’t think that what I really want even exists. It’s a matter of trying to get past that. If I look at what it was that I was chasing all these years in my relationships with women and subject it to a red pill critical appraisal, it becomes a laughable, trite, and corny Disney movie fantasy. Real world women aren’t like that. I know that now and I can look back at my relationships, both good and bad, and see that they were never what I thought they were.

    On a rational level I recognize how ridiculous that blue pill bullshit is but on some stubborn and murky emotional level, the loss of that idealism or expectation still causes grief.

    It’s not a feeling I choose to have. In many ways it’s one that I routinely manage to obscure from myself only to find it nibbling away at my thought process when I least expect it. It’s hard to shake it. The only thing I can compare it to is the way you’ll rationalize and create bullshit excuses to keep smoking when you’re trying to quit. It’s ridiculous and you know you’re conning yourself, but it’s as if the rationalizations come from outside of you in a sense.

    It’s the rational brain coming into direct conflict with the lizard brain. It’s almost like you have to be continuously on guard or else you’ll find that behind whatever thought process or decision you might be making, there is the subconscious or half conscious desire to find the NAWALT even when you know she doesn’t exist.

    I believe Rollo or maybe a commenter here explained in one post or another that the idea is to let go of unrealistic blue pill goals entirely and adopt entirely different red pill ones which are appropriate to the world as it is, rather than the world as we would like it to be. I’m just not able to see the red pill goals yet, I guess.

  28. I was concentrating on the social behaviour within the species and particularly between the sexes. Among the fish I would look at salmon and seahorses.

    Salmon are one of the species that I’ve mentioned that don’t even know they have children, and eat their own. The big fish is “mommy.”

  29. @Rollo

    The most difficult thing about it, for me anyway, is that it seems like much of my identity is wrapped up in blue pill fantasy. I can’t even separate out who I am from it. The worst part is I don’t dislike myself, and maybe that’s what you mean by nobility. It just leaves me bitter and continuously resenting women for not being attracted to what I always thought they should be attracted to. I’m pretty sure that’s classic AFC thinking and I realize it’s dumb as hell, but I keep catching myself getting mired in thoughts like those in spite of myself. I find that sublimated resentment cropping up in social situations with women and I have to be quick to catch it and choke it off. I don’t know, it’s just difficult to imagine the red pill me. I’m not really sure who that is.

      1. @Softek
        “It’s not really what you do, as far as I know — it’s how you do it. ”

        That’s red pill gold it’s not just science it’s evidence of social interaction.

  30. @ Divided Line

    YaReally mentioned the Black Dragon Blog.

    I’d never heard of it before, but have been checking it out since he mentioned it. I highly recommend you check it out, along with YaReally’s archives. Really good stuff. I’m thinking about buying the book The Unchained Man, but until then I’m just checking out everything on the Black Dragon blog to get a feel for it.

    The Blue Pill fantasy is a LOT of guys’ identities. Especially guys from broken homes/dysfunctional families.

    What helped me a lot was getting friendzoned and rejected a lot of times. It pissed me off. Seeing how blatantly girls will pursue other guys right in front of you, look at pics of ‘hawt’ guys on their phone right in front of you, etc., if they have zero respect for you and zero sexual interest in you, and will never consider you as a potential fuck buddy or partner in any way.

    Even seeing them “like” sexual posts on FB. Like pics of ‘hawt’ guys, or some thing about condoms, dildos, etc., flirting with other guys on there. The list goes on and on. You know they’re having sex, but since you never see them when they’re turned on and they never show any sexual interest in you, you can be naive and think that they’re not fucking their brains out with Alphas.

    This last girl I saw a week ago or so was telling me how not all girls are into “Alpha” guys. Guess who she was dating? Emotionally and physically abusive drug dealing illegal immigrant. I had to turn away and pretend I was picking something up to hide my smile and keep myself from bursting out laughing.

    For all the reading I did, it really took a bundle of that stuff to snap me out of it. Realizing that all these women are fucking their brains out and have their pick of the litter, while I was just spending all my time jerking off after failing to get a date, getting rejected after asking a girl out, etc.

    That, and having hooked up with a girl years before that I am completely Alpha with. After we hooked up IRL there was a lot of sexting inbetween. That’s when it dawned on me when she would just be sending things like “I want you to fuck me with that big dick, I feel like such a slut when I’m around you, you turn me on so much, I want your cock inside of me” —

    — I have pages and pages of stuff like that from her. THAT is desire from women, even when she was visiting here it was like she was an animal in heat.

    So using that as my benchmark, women I’ve blown it with are SO far off from that it isn’t even funny.

    I’ve had WAY more failures than successes, and I still haven’t gotten any IRL action since New Year’s. It’s been a while. But a lot of that time has been spent building up skills for my business, making some extra money at it, and letting TRP soak in.

    I’ve had a lot of emotional hangups to let go of.

    But understanding that all women are sluts for Alphas is the most important thing to let sink in.

    It’s in your best interest to take TRP and change yourself. The best Beta sex is nowhere close to the worst Alpha sex. The best Beta relationship is nowhere close to the worst Alpha relationship.

    And all you have to do is get one or two experiences being treated as an Alpha on a sexual level, and then the picture gets very clear.

    When I find myself slipping into desperation, I think back to that girl I had all those experiences with. And then it’s like….dude, what the fuck are you doing? Like the friendzone bullshit, girls that just want to bitch about nonsense while I’m just imagining blowing a load on their face —

    — that’s no way to live.

    It might take a while, but you’re in the right place. Again, I highly recommend the Black Dragon blog and YaReally’s archives. Those should help even more in tandem with Rational Male.

    What you’re going through is normal. It’s all part of the unplugging process. Just know that there is another side, and you can change. You can be the kind of man that will think back on sharing these comments you just shared, and feel like it’s someone else.

    Part of the hard part is men have been shamed so much too. Is it really nobility? Or is part of you still deeply ashamed of your base sexual urges as a man? Society’s told you it’s wrong to be so horny all the time and to want to fuck different women — the shame runs VERY deep.

  31. @ Divided Line

    Also notice any resistance that comes up when you imagine yourself as an Alpha, whatever that means to you.

    What makes you uncomfortable about it? You CAN see yourself that way. It’s just that it doesn’t feel like you — it doesn’t feel like it’s achievable.

    Watch some porn and imagine some girl you’re into. Imagine that you’re the guy and she’s the girl. Transpose the images in your mind.

    It can feel a little weird, but only in proportion to how much of your sexuality you’ve repressed, and how many issues you have that’re keeping you from envisioning yourself as an Alpha.

    Or instead of “Alpha,” a new, better man. A different person.

    Tip: You’ll still be you. It’s safe for you to be a different person. You’ll still be you. Just happier, more emotionally stable and getting what you want out of life. You have to reinforce one thing in particular:

    “It’s safe for me to make these changes.”
    “It’s safe for me to live my life in a different way.”
    “It’s safe for me to let go of these thought patterns that aren’t helping me.”
    “It’s okay for me to let go of the past.”
    “I’ll still be me when I become an Alpha. I’ll just have better coping skills and be more in control of my life.”
    “Being a Beta is protecting me from things I’m afraid of. It’s safe to let go of being a Beta. Because it isn’t really protecting me — it’s keeping me away from everything that I really want in life. It’s safe to let it go. Let it go. Just let it go.”

    You can repeat these mantras mentally or out loud. Personally, I use a method like this in combination with tapping on acupressure points.

    But the real key is this: notice emotional resistance that comes up, acknowledge it, and then let it go. I tap between the eyes, then beside the eye, then under the eye, then on the collar bone, while repeating the phrase, or variations of the phrase, “Let it go, let it go, it’s safe to let it go, I’m okay as I let it go, whatever it means, wherever it comes from, it’s safe to let it go.”

    You have to understand that the programming you currently have is trying to keep you safe. That’s why it feels scary to let go of it.

    What’ll happen if I let go of these programs? If I stop being Beta, x y and z bad things might happen to me. I better stay Beta.

    So if you use this technique and get in the habit of acknowledging and releasing resistance as it comes up, you’ll find it easier to change.

    Not being able to envision a new future for yourself is a hallmark sign of internal resistance, and stubborn psychological programs. Once you address those you’ll be ready to start making real changes.

    Trying to make changes when you’re completely invested in being Beta is like trying to build a house on quicksand.

  32. FYI, the modality is called Faster EFT. I’ve used it with great success and highly recommend it for stubborn emotional attachments to Blue Pill thought patterns.

    As soon as you feel the resentment coming up, you’ll have a skill set to deal with it. The magic question is “How do you know?”

    How do you know you feel resentment? Where do you feel it in your body? Do you have memories or images or anything in your mind to support this feeling of resentment that you have? How do you know you have it?

    Lock on to whatever it is. Notice how you know it’s there. That’s when you tap and simply say “Let it go, it’s safe to let it go,” etc. — then grab your wrist, breathe in, blow it out, and say “Peace.”

    Now you go back and re-check the problem. Rinse and repeat until it no longer bothers you. And trust me — it won’t bother you if you do it enough. It’s crazy stuff. I’ve used this to literally get rid of throbbing migraine headaches in people that had no idea what I was doing, in a matter of 10 minutes. You can believe that or not, but having done that firsthand I’m a believer.

    The other half is installing new beliefs. That comes from reading things like this, Black Dragon, YaReally — just immerse yourself in it, and slowly absorb information.

    There’s a lot to know. It took years to make you into the Beta that you are today. It’ll take some time to turn into the self-made Alpha that you really want to be deep down.

    But it’s very important to release and let go. I don’t agree with the ‘suck it up’ camp. They only are in that camp because they don’t have skills to deal with emotional problems.

    I do. So I use them. It’s much more effective. Faster progress.

    I used it myself to get over ONE-itis, which was so bad I was waking up in the middle of the night having panic attacks. For real. I would be crying like a bitch.

    That goes back for me to childhood and abandonment issues as well as physical/emotional and one case of sexual abuse. The rabbit hole can get pretty deep.

    But I haven’t had that issue ever since. I was about as Beta as they come. I’m not out of the weeds yet but I’ve been making a lot of progress.

    Just remember that you CAN change. You can live a different way, behave in different ways. Change is completely possible. The EMOTIONAL RESISTANCE to change is the primary reason it doesn’t happen for people.

    Learn how to release the emotional resistance and you will have new room in your mind for anything you can imagine.

    But again, it can take time. The manosphere is like taking an extensive academic course. You can’t learn everything overnight. So just keep reading, keep tabs on your emotions and your desires and what YOU really want in your life, not what you think you should want, or what other people want —

    — and take it from there. But remember – you can change. And you will change. You’re already on the path.

  33. @softek

    “And all you have to do is get one or two experiences being treated as an Alpha on a sexual level, and then the picture gets very clear.”

    I’ve had sexual interest from women like that in the past here and there. I’m not sure how I generated it, but maybe that’s a good place to start trying to figure out how to go about it.

    “Part of the hard part is men have been shamed so much too. Is it really nobility? Or is part of you still deeply ashamed of your base sexual urges as a man? Society’s told you it’s wrong to be so horny all the time and to want to fuck different women — the shame runs VERY deep.”

    My first instinct was simply to explain that I don’t particularly want to fuck lots of women, that I just wanted to fuck the right one and get that girlfriend thing handled. But really… how do I know? I’ve never spun plates. I never thought I could. I ran from one LTR to the other like a bitch with a few desperate, hard won one night stands here and there. So yeah, fuck that.

    I don’t know that I feel any shame really. I think it’s more the fact that trying to get into a girl’s pants was always an uphill battle for me. No matter how many times I managed it or landed a girlfriend, I never really felt like I knew how I did it. It always felt like luck. After every relationship, it seemed like I went right back to fumbling. So it’s not shame, it’s more like rationalizing the fact that I didn’t want to have to struggle to game girls all the time and would have preferred the ease of regular sex with the same girl, even if she wasn’t the hottest or if I wasn’t maximizing other sexual opportunities.

    So yeah, I guess that’s a pretty miserable way to go through your sex life. I should probably change it up if I get serious about trying to talk to girls again.

    1. Self surgery
      If an undertaking was easy, someone else already would have done it.
      If you follow in another’s footsteps, you miss the problems really worth solving.
      Excellence is born of preparation,dedication,focus,and tenacity; compromise on any of these and you become average.
      Every so often, life presents a great moment of decision, an intersection at which a man must decide to stop or go; a person lives with these decisions forever.
      Examine everything; not all is as it seems or as people tell you.
      It is easiest to live with a decision if it is based on an earnest sense of right and wrong.
      The guy who gets killed is often the guy who got nervous.
      The guy who doesn’t care anymore, who said,”I’m already dead-the fact that I live or die is irrelevant and the only thing that matter is the accounting I give of myself,” is the most formidable force in the world.
      The worst possible decision is to give up.
      John Chatterton lessons from Vietnam
      130 foot deep diver
      A compliment “When you die, no one will ever find your body.”
      Found U-boat in New York bay cost six years, three lives, two marriages, and two life’s savings.
      -Do it now. Tomorrow is promised to no one.

      @Divided line
      “Real world women aren’t like that. I know that now and I can look back at my relationships, both good and bad, and see that they were never what I thought they were.”

      I have this as well. But if anything Rollo’s work healed a lot of shit I held onto that I can let go off because of being told it was that way. What really hurts in knowing when I die and I will hopefully not sooner than later. I will be alone.

      “The most difficult thing about it, for me anyway, is that it seems like much of my identity is wrapped up in blue pill fantasy.”

      Holy hell me to my own family dislikes the “new me” I’m not their beta bitch “good” boy anymore. It’s hard to remove their imposition on my so called identity.

      “I don’t know, it’s just difficult to imagine the red pill me. I’m not really sure who that is.”

      In a way I am not ether but I know I what I don’t wanna go back to.

      “I should probably change it up if I get serious about trying to talk to girls again.”

      Even now I love approaching girls to get over anxiety it’s still there I just manage it at a whole new level that I’ve never really known before.

      @Softek
      “The Blue Pill fantasy is a LOT of guys’ identities. Especially guys from broken homes/dysfunctional families.”

      Deeply true.

      “I had to turn away and pretend I was picking something up to hide my smile and keep myself from bursting out laughing.”

      Just thinking about that makes me laugh. It’s like my sisters saying how much and doing the very opposite.

      “I’ve had a lot of emotional hangups to let go of.”

      Me to “perhaps today is a good day to die”

      “Part of the hard part is men have been shamed so much too. Is it really nobility?”

      You know what I find that fascinating to think back on because of how ruthless and intense the process was.

      “Society’s told you it’s wrong to be so horny all the time and to want to fuck different women — the shame runs VERY deep.”

      That in part with a dysfunctional family nearly cost my life.

      “Watch some porn and imagine some girl you’re into. Imagine that you’re the guy and she’s the girl. Transpose the images in your mind.”

      I’ve done that once I’ve gotten into the rational male but I am trying to stay away from porn for awhile.

      “It’s okay for me to let go of the past.”
      “I’ll still be me when I become an Alpha. I’ll just have better coping skills and be more in control of my life.”

      Almost comes across a meditation to your deep self the one the world attempting to annihilate.

      “Being a Beta is protecting me from things I’m afraid of. It’s safe to let go of being a Beta. Because it isn’t really protecting me — it’s keeping me away from everything that I really want in life. It’s safe to let it go. Let it go. Just let it go.”

      The mental space freed from that and the red pill is amazing to behold.

      “You have to understand that the programming you currently have is trying to keep you safe. That’s why it feels scary to let go of it.”

      That’s key in dealing with any trauma.

      “It’ll take some time to turn into the self-made Alpha that you really want to be deep down.”

      That’s incredibly respectful

      “That goes back for me to childhood and abandonment issues as well as physical/emotional and one case of sexual abuse. The rabbit hole can get pretty deep.”

      Me to especially since I was abused by both a male and a female.

      “So just keep reading, keep tabs on your emotions and your desires and what YOU really want in your life, not what you think you should want, or what other people want —

      — and take it from there. But remember – you can change. And you will change. You’re already on the path.”

      Robert Greene once said something along the lines of “Understand this the moment you accept the path society gives you your already done with.”

  34. @ Divided

    That’s what I’ve been doing — settling. It is a miserable way to go through your sex life, whether that means extremely long dry spells with no sex at all, or occasional sex with girls you aren’t even that attracted to or don’t actually find hot.

    All the PUA stuff is reverse-engineered from what “Naturals” do. When I hooked up with that girl on New Year’s, I knew what I was doing. If I think hard about it, it gets too convoluted and is like “How did I do that?”

    But I know what I did. Lots of relaxed, direct eye contact, lots of shameless kino, joking around, sexualizing the interaction by sexualizing the jokes I was making as well as with kino and eye contact together — basic sexual escalating.

    I caught some IOI’s from her, e.g. her staring at me, checking me out — and capitalized on it. She was sitting by herself at one point on a couch and I just sat myself right next to her and said something like “Boy, it’s pretty cold out here huh?”

    I’ve had a rough year. So I can get the “How did I do that?” thing. I was way more confident at that time. I had no reservations with kino at all. I was all over her. At one point had my arm around her resting on her tits like it was no big deal. She didn’t object. She asked me to give her a bottle of wine, so I pass it over to her, but before I handed it over I just instinctively, joking around, rubbed the tip of the bottle around her mouth like it was a dick.

    I accidentally hit her in the teeth, lmao. I was just like “Woops. You ok?” She ended up blowing me and swallowing later that night so I couldn’t have fucked up that badly. But throughout the night I kept locking eyes with her on and off, also talked to other girls in front of her like I didn’t care.

    And I just did some stupid playful stuff like “Let me see your hand.” And then I tickled the palm of her hand with my fingertips. Some girls might think that’s creepy. She loved it. Thought it was really funny. It’s not really what you do, as far as I know — it’s how you do it. Just keeping it playful and fun, and above all, with SEXUAL UNDERTONES.

    As long as you sexualize the interaction from the get-go, you’re good. Doesn’t mean you’re going to get laid, but you don’t come off as a chump and you will never end up in the friendzone again.

    I’ve had girls physically pull away from me when I tried to put my arm around them. That was a dead giveaway she wasn’t into it. But if a girl is into it she won’t do that and then you know you can escalate further.

    But that hookup came post-reading about all this stuff. I went in as a guy with no skills, so I learned from reading some PUA stuff, and a lot from YaReally and other guys here.

    Basically, I think it comes down to sexually escalating with a girl that’s interested in you. Some girls just won’t be into you. But if you can find ones that are, and you make sure you sexualize your interactions from the start, even in ‘cute’ ways — this is how you stay out of the friendzone and open up potential Fuck Buddies / LTRs (if that’s what you’re looking for, but I’m taking the advice of staying away from LTR’s until I’m in my early to mid 30’s).

    If you think back on it, you can probably reverse engineer things you did.

    Simply ALLOWING yourself to spin plates would be a good idea. Why not give plate spinning a try? It doesn’t mean you have to abandon prospects of an LTR.

    But be aware of your motivations for an LTR. It’s no safe haven from the burden of performance. Most men think that marriage is a safe haven — they can finally ‘rest’ after all the bullshit and just have a stable relationship.

    Unfortunately it isn’t that easy. There are no shortcuts with this stuff.

    IMO you owe it to yourself to open yourself up to any kind of girls you want.

    You don’t have to swear LTR’s off. But it would be a good idea to experiment a little so you can really know what you like and what you want.

    It’s all about being prepared. I would read about LTRs from a Red Pill perspective and get familiarized with the potential problems with them. And in the meantime get your head back in the game and realize that it’s okay for you to have fun.

    With the few hookups I’ve had, I did find a lot of relief. Not sure how it is for you. But feeling desired and fooling around can go a very long way if you’re stuck in a dry spell — it can help snap you out of the rut and breathe some new life into you.

    You DO know what you’re doing. You’ve done it before. You can reverse engineer it and keep practicing until you have it down. That’s what I’m trying to do. Mastery. Feeling confident about picking up girls. Then, and only then, can it stop seeming like such a big deal.

    Your ability to have an LTR will always be there no matter how much you’ve slept around, so I wouldn’t sweat it. You want to implant the idea in your head that you have OPTIONS.

    So by learning this stuff and applying it, you are doing nothing more than EXPANDING YOUR OPTIONS.

    You’re not losing any, you’re only GAINING. More options = more freedom. More choices. If you don’t like this path, take another one, etc. The name of the game is expanding your options.

  35. @Divided Line

    Totally get all you’re saying here. Grief at the death of your Blue Pill view of the world can take a while to get past. Don’t get frustrated, I still fight it here and there. It’s persistent. Hell dude, you’ve been programmed with it for how many decades now? It was three and a half for me. Half a human lifetime. How do you expect to get past that immediately, you know? It’s a process, and you’ll find yourself having to cut out little bits of it for a while.

    I don’t know, it’s just difficult to imagine the red pill me. I’m not really sure who that is.

    So don’t try to imagine it. As a baby you didn’t imagine who you were going to be as a person. It’s just an emergent property of all the experiences and lessons that make up your life. You can pick a vague direction you want to go and just head that way. You can’t imagine a guy whose experiences you’ve not had yet, you know? It would require knowing things before you know them. Doesn’t make any sense, does it?

    Pick the lessons and experiences you want to fill your life with in light of what you’ve learned from TRP. The guy that comes out of that will be “the red pill you”. You don’t have to imagine him to become him anymore than as a baby you had to imagine becoming who you are today for it to happen. All that’s different this time is you’ve got an idea of the direction you’d like to go. That’s all.

    1. @Sun Wukong
      “You can’t imagine a guy whose experiences you’ve not had yet, you know? It would require knowing things before you know them. Doesn’t make any sense, does it?”

      That was the best way to describe trauma and the imposition of control and the freedom of what the red pill is at its most basic level.

      I always knew about the red pill. Didn’t know it was called that but my conditioning was intense and enforced with force of people who didn’t care for my own well being but their own. One main reason I looked out for a blog as real and raw and that I connect with as this is because people here are talking about what has gone on in my life and actually deal with it. Not avoid it or pretend it hasn’t happened.

      I still got a hell of a lot of work to do on myself. The notes in Rollos books help me fill in the blanks with words. It’s a process that takes time. I just don’t know how much before you can say your fully unplugged?

  36. too many diatribes in the comment section.

    Roosh has disarmed the sjw’s in canada and forewarned canadian border services that to deny him entry is ‘discrimination’. he is now a sacred ow and cannot be killed. very clever.
    he is, however, playing with fire (he fought fire with fire) . he will get burned.
    he may be martyring himself-he is a shia -but i doubt it. witb roosh it always seems to come back to 2 issues: he grew up brown in america (resentful), he suceeded as a potential provider (career in microbiology) yet women fucked hime around (resentment). i think i see a pattern.
    much as women have been a pain in my ass, i still like them, enjoy talking to them (even when they reveal an inferior intellect) and enjoy fuckng them.

    rollo-ur articles are great. thanks bro

  37. bob bitchin is kinda right. If men stand up for themselves they’re treated like shit. If they are quiet they’re treated like shit. Might as well go out fighting.

  38. “much as women have been a pain in my ass, i still like them, enjoy talking to them (even when they reveal an inferior intellect) and enjoy fuckng them.”

    Women don’t have inferior intellect, they have inferior emotional quotient.
    Their intellect just auto-shuts down, because they like to feel more than they think.

  39. when i say inferior intellect what i mean is this: if how you feel or think (ideology, etc.) prevents a rational analysis then ur inferior. further, if you cant see the connections i illustrate: ditto. Women and men think differently. After attending two top universities (one in canada and one in the u.s.a.) i can say this with complete confidence: women are inferior intellectually. They comply with authority and are perfect worker drones as they are xtremely acepting of hierarchy and groupthink. LLC’s eat that shit up.
    i am an outlier. You dont want to know my i.q. ( measured by a phd psychologist as part of a program in early 90’s). without trying, i scored a perfect sat verbal and high enough overall sat score for the ivy league. i can sit down with a woman and talk to her. pure intellect and looks lead to a wet spot. high intelligence is a total turn on for women. they love it. none of them can match me. women excel at deception and manipulation not original creative thought or problem solving. different brains. i Dont have to take it personally ( hard wired: thanks rollo!)

    i blow my horn with purpose. roosh is clever but not smart. he beat the canadian govt and some sjw’s. big deal, ultimately. still, i consider it an accompishment of sorts. i’d be more impressed if he built a real business and got on with his life. he seems stuck.
    i really respect rollo. his insight is spot on. he does this as a sideline. he has business and personal success. the work he is doing here can help guys who are floundering (myself and i suspect other men).
    i did field work last weekend (read: went to a bar, drank beer and hung out). i spotted a mid- 20’s bleach blonde giving me that feral look as i walked by. i ignored her. both her and her friend succeeded in getting my attention. i danced with the blonde (remember, this is a bar) but she disqualified herself. it was a fun but revealing night.
    the quality of women in canada is so low (marxist education, divorce n dv rape laws, how attitude makes physically beautiful women emotionally repellent) that this country will only survive via mass immigration. our birth rate speaks volumes.
    i’m not going to sit around being angry and bitter. i’m going to use my gifts (iq, looks, game, etc), improve my skills and create a better, more fulfilling life.

    roosh should do the same.

  40. Victory in Toronto! Fuckin’ A. I can’t believe he pulled it off. Roosh is no angel but damn. We won this round! Just bought Bang Iceland. Completely useless for me but Roosh earned my 10 bucks.

  41. Divided Line – I’ve been exactly where you are now. I’ve even said “I don’t want to fuck tons of women…” And for the record I still haven’t. You don’t HAVE to spin plates, but frankly I can see how it speeds up the grieving/anger phase a bit.

    As to who your Red Pill self is: don’t sweat it right now. Pick some goals and start working. Momentum builds and at some point you’ll realize you are making progress and feeling good, and then you can re-evaluate with a better frame of mind.

    This never ends. There is no end goal. Realize you will be working and improving from today on. So trying to imagine your “Red Pill” self is pointless. You will never be the same again, and if you ever find yourself feeling like you’re done, you’re slipping back and need to hit it again.

    Don’t worry about finding a unicorn. Do you to the best of your ability, and then try harder. If a woman appears on your radar, engage. But don’t do it with an agenda.

    The problem is partly that you are still hoping a woman can fill a role she simply isn’t biologically designed for. You are mourning the loss of something you never truly had with women in the past, and now that you see it clearly you feel hopeless. I know I did. But for better or worse here I am, a married guy with Red Pill awareness. And I have a healthy and rewarding relationship with my wife. One that isn’t built on Disney lies and fairy tales. I won’t argue with guys that say it isn’t worth it, because that is an individual choice. For me, the work is worth the reward, and if that dynamic ever changes I’m willing to what it takes to resolve it. At this point in my life, I can say that marriage is not a future option for me. If I find myself single again, it would be very unlikely I would take another legal roll of the dice. But I’m almost past the time in my life when marriage is most beneficial: when raising children.

    My humble advice? Forget about women for a short while. Concentrate on you. Get your mind, body, and spirit in a better place first. You will never succeed in bringing a woman into your frame if its still a mess, and you’ll never succeed with a woman without solid frame. My frame will never be perfect, but it will always be mine. And its awesome enough to share with my wife, on my terms.

    I’m rambling… Just know that as much as it sucks, you are exactly where you should be. Most of us have been there. What lies ahead is hard work, but you got it in the bag. Head down and start walking up the mountain!

    1. @teddj4g
      “My frame will never be perfect, but it will always be mine. And its awesome enough to share with my wife, on my terms.”
      When reading that I think of the phrase.

      Because I am a man.

  42. ASD – nothing much. Considering shuttering it to reuse the hosting plan for something music related. In short, I concluded guys like Rollo do a better job at blogging this stuff and tossing my hat in the ring doesn’t necessarily add value. I kept it around for the other “guys” but everyone is too busy living to write much.

    I do better out here in the weeds kinda sniping from the sidelines. I don’t have the patience Rollo does to suffer fools, and there’s enough smart guys commenting that I rarely have original content to add.

    It was cool while it ran, and personally helped me purge a lot of mental crap. But it may have run its course, which is fine with me.

  43. Rollo –

    “To women, men are monuments and women are chameleons.” As always, you reduce the argument to its purest state. Thanks for the final definitive word.

  44. “Divorce and infidelity are amplified in the U.S. because of our subservient obedience to the Feminine Bullshit Imperative. That is driven by Media in all it’s forms, smartphones – tablets – and oldschool Pc’s, personal transportation, etc. etc. etc….. ”

    This is one of the reasons Saudis don’t allow women to drive. Once saw a clip with a Saudi Muslim cleric where he said (paraphrasing): “If we allow women to drive cars fornication and divorce will become widespread”.

    I used to think that this type of thinking was nothing short of insane…now i must say i’m starting to see where they’re coming from.

  45. If Hypergamy is fundamentally rooted in doubt (which I have no disagreement with), then what is the male equivalent rooted in? Is there even a male equivalent to what is presented in this post?

    OT: A friend recommended Shakespeares “Taming of the Shrew” to me recently. I had missed this particular bit of Shakespeare. I went out and watched the 1967 version with Elizabeth Taylor. I found the dialogue to be uncomplicated and generationally naive. However, I was struck by the alpha behavior of Petruchio in the story. The man approaches the notion of wooing this woman that no man wants (because of her attitude) with barely a second thought. He pursues her despite her absolutely dreadful behavior towards him as if her attempts at rejecting him are meaningless. He has the cards and he knows it, as the father in the play would like nothing more than to marry off his eldest daughter (the shrew). Petruchio’s treatment of this woman is at all times is from *his frame* and no other. He absolutely will not allow her frame to exist. I’d recommend checking it out if you’ve never read that play or seen the various incarnations of it. The dialogue is simple, but in simplicity there is wisdom on how to hold frame.

  46. I do think Shakespeare had the equivalent understanding of male-female relations that your average blue-pilled beta has today. He didn’t have living examples of what hypergamy unchained actually acts like to work with.

  47. I have yet to read your book, though I’ve been told about them by someone that’s read it and read some things from other sites. Why do you tell men to not be honest w their feelings? Also, To be machiavellian and not care about others and just get what they want and screw everyone else? This does not work in a relationship that is healthy. You can’t just not care and you can’t just not care about other people or want to help them if you can. I see a lot of disses on women but what about men? Men especially alphas can be very manipulative and highly abusive. What of them? What of the bad sides of men?

  48. Aley, your concern for men is very touching. We’ll take it under consideration at our next Ent-moot and get back to you real soon now.

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