Our Sisters’ Keeper

sister's_keeper

“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.”

This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.

When I read it from women it’s kind of ironic considering it usually comes from women who share in the same moral absolutism, who were “so different when they were in college”, but they’ve had their Epiphany and “got right with God.” They often cling to the Strong Independent® identity for themselves, but turn over a rock and show them the visceral, observable, ugly truth of unfettered Hypergamy and then, then it’s men’s partial or total responsibility for fostering women’s conditions.

It becomes men’s fault for not having the fortitude and presence of mind to correct them when they needed it – never mind the lifetime of Blue Pill conditioning that taught them judging women made them misogynistic assholes. I understand axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.

From Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:

The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

As I was writing the Adaptations series it occurred to me that men on the ends of both the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.

As I stated in the last post, Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient. However, men’s adapting to the “market” dictates of Hypergamy has to be equally efficient if that guy is to fulfill his own sexual imperative. Pragmatism doesn’t have time for how things should be. You make the best play with what’s in front of you.

Just to illustrate, for about 25 years or so, popular culture strongly pointed men towards a sexual strategy that could be defined as Beta Game. Play nice, respect a woman by default, be supportive of her self-image and ambitions to the sacrifice of your own, don’t judge her and do your utmost to identify with the feminine, was the call to action that, deductively, should make a man more attractive to a woman.

Furthermore, the intrasexual combat amongst men for sexual qualification was (at least ostensibly) focused on out-supporting, out-sympathizing, out-emoting and out-identifying with the feminine more so than other men. To set oneself apart from “other guys” the seemingly most strategic tact was to accept what women said they wanted from men. To pragmatically effect this men gladly joined the chorus of ridiculing conventional masculinity; denouncing and resisting the very element that would in fact have set them apart from the nebulous “other guys“.

So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man.

Women and Moral Agency

For as long as I’ve read and commented on Christo-Manosphere blogs a common thread has cropped up again and again; the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men. I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.

My point here isn’t to reheat that debate, but rather to see how it feeds into the rationale that men are in some way responsible for what contemporary women have become, and how they’ll progress if men don’t assume some responsibility for women’s behaviors.

Hypergamy is pragmatic, but it’s also inherently duplicitous. It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance. When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.

For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.

All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action with the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice. Up until the sexual revolution the balance between the sexes’ concepts of justice was mitigated by mutual compromise – each had something to lose and something to gain by considering the other sex’s imperatives.

For roughly the past 70 years this balance between the two concepts has listed heavily to the feminine. Our age has been defined by women’s unilateral and ubiquitous control of Hypergamy, and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.

Along with that unprecedented control comes the prioritizing of women’s concept of justice above that of men’s. We can see this evidenced in every law, social convention or social justice movement that entitles women to rights and privileges that free them of any accountability for the negative consequence their Hypergamously based behavior would hold them to in a concept of justice that men would have.

I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes.

Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter:

1 The woman is always the victim

2 Nothing is her fault

3 She is not responsible for her actions

4 A man is to blame

To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.

The problem I see in assigning the blame of women’s behavior to men’s lack of control is that, presently, men have no real control nor does men’s concept of justice align with that of women. There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.

That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.

And yes, that’s pretty fucked up if you, again, find yourself on the sharp end of it. Men’s adapting to the intersexual conditions set by women isn’t some deterministic prospect, but the idea that the mass majority of men would be responsible for the state women find themselves in is ludicrous. There will always be men willing to accept the sexual dictates of women because it serves their breeding imperatives. It’s good for him personally and it’s good for the species.

There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it.

Personal Responsibility

On a final note here, whenever I delve into the ethical implications of Red Pill awareness I invariably run into the personal responsibility equation. I do my best to make as coldly rational an observation of dynamics I see and allow my readers to make their own judgements. However, those observation are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to acting out.

There is always a want on the part of either sex to see their concept of justice enacted on those who would act against it. Thus you get honor killing in the Muslim world, and you have men’s access to the DNA testing of children they suspect aren’t their own denied in the “best interest of the child.”

So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

Back to primary concerns here. I just read The Paradox of Commitment. Had not seen this one before, excellent analysis of the subject, as usual I mostly agree and appreciate your work. Understanding this paradox is crucial, due to reality of commitments. However, I would like to focus on one aspect of commitments not developed in your post. Commitments are like contracts where the parties agree on specific contributions each will make to the relationship (commitment). These contributions include specific behaviors, roles, efforts, assets to be shared or exchanged. LTR commitments are only established when both parties consider these contribution… Read more »

Tom...
Tom...
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong Regarding muslims, are you talking about Americanized muslims or the ones in the Gulf and Asia? There are some very rich conservative Wahhabi muslims in Saudi Arabia. They still take their religion quite seriously. @stationarity I can agree with you that it is a father’s responsibility to raise his daughter properly. And as you say, it is easier to check the growth of hypergamous impulses earlier in a child’s development. However, I just cannot hold modern western men wholly culpable for the present situation. There are too many forces sapping his strength. I place 30 percent of the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

It’s people! The state is made out of people!

Dan
Dan
6 years ago

white men gone,men gone,women gone,a.i.archontic robots rule/gone as mother earth blows anthopos10 back to ploroma indigestion.next.

Dan
Dan
6 years ago

lol .anthropos 10 . unfortunately anthropos 11 never emerged.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

IFITGD of Mr. Bling.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@’Dan’

u off ur meds chokmah?

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Rollo – “In fact, if you really want to run Black Knight Game, watch your religious girl’s Facebook posts and Tweets for appeals to God or her friend’s sympathies; that’s when she’ll be open to imaginings about how you were sent by God to save her from her loneliness.”

Now that’s some subversive shit. Or maybe following that course is just a small part of God’s unknowable plan.

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

The idea of GOD doesn’t pass logical muster. . . If you hold that God is some sort of benevolent super conscious that created the universe then you can use the following exercise. . . The question of his/her existence can be reduced to a philosophical irreducible. . . . The Primacy of Existence vs. The Primacy of Consciousness. . . Which one comes first? In order to be conscious you must be aware of something. Something denotes existence. Existence comes first. Consciousness requires existence. Existence does not require consciousness. Religions requires subordination to a greater non provable, unfalsifiable mystical… Read more »

Longgone
Longgone
6 years ago

Softek, Kudos to you on the poon….BTW as I’ve told you before you express yourself far beyond the 83 IQ someone labeled you with. Either responding to scribbler and others here….spontaneously I might add, has improved your IQ and reading comprehension or someone’s lying (to you, to us?). In any case, you’re giving more than you take around here these days. Thanks. scribblerg, More FR’s soon please. Old-guy game is a bitch but it’s encouraging to see it exists. If I have any oldest-guy FR’s to post here I’ll probably need an identity “adjustment similar to yours. (Working on some… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ Mike “The purpose of the scientific method is to create a FICTIONAL story to explain an observation then modify that story until it fits your observations as closely as possible. ” Falsification and the scientific method are identical to the Socratic method. A hypothesis is fictional, but we do not attempt to prove it, but to disprove it. If it holds up, then it has some degree of reliability. That’s the best you can do. That was the intended point of Socrates’s famous “I know nothing” bit. Socrates never argued that such and such was true, he simply weeded… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

The Teamspeak server is up in preparation for starting at 16:00.

Client can be downloaded here.

Server address is neo.themantable.net or 80.82.64.201.

Feel free to join to get sound issues worked out and meet others before we get started.

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

“In fact, if you really want to run Black Knight Game, watch your religious girl’s Facebook posts and Tweets for appeals to God or her friend’s sympathies; that’s when she’ll be open to imaginings about how you were sent by God to save her from her loneliness.” In fact, if you are at all savvy with your PUA skills, you will always look for that hint of superstition, mysticism, or magical thinking in any girl who is attractive and potentially f*ckworthy. It’s not ‘Black Knight game’—it’s simply GOOD game to feed chick crack to the kitty kat. They love you… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

@Sun

Wish I could be there for it. Break a leg.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ sjfrellc “If a woman thinks she is better than you then she can’t respect you and if she can’t respect you she can’t love you. Women love men differently to the way men love women. Woman’s love is based on adoration, adoration is a combination of both explicit admiration and respect. Respect is derived from power. Thus it follows that you must be powerful if you want to be loved, or you will never be loved. You will be held in contempt for being weak.” In a nutshell, this is why feminism belongs on the proverbial ash heap of… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

Ugh, that should have read: “we could all frolic in the sunshine OF A utopian gender equality playland if women made it possible for them to do so.”

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

@Divided Line Blaming feminism and/or women for relentlessly pursuing their biological imperatives isn’t constructive. It’s a counterproductive male victim mentality that feeds on itself. Learning the ways of and internalizing the Red Pill will go a long way to ensuring that you are generally—if not always—perceived as ‘better.’ Attitude and bearing matter more than money, looks, or height in this regard. Literally, “be” better and women (even feminists) treat you veeeeeerrrrry differently. It certainly isn’t the easy road, but consider believing the alternative as you’ve stated above and having it be your reality. Wow. I guess I just answered the… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ The Diplomat I’m not practicing game and I don’t read this blog in order to find a better means of relating to women. I’m just interested in how it all works and how it turned into the disaster it’s become. I fully admit to resenting women and I’ve for the most part given up relating to them. It’s not that I don’t think I can do it, since I’ve done it before, it’s just that I’m exhausted by it and no longer think it’s worth the effort. I’m old and tired and I don’t feel like doing it anymore.… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

In regards to whose fault all of this is, if we think women are capable of being rational moral agents, then it is entirely their fault, since the social landscape we find ourselves in is entirely of their creation. We’re the ones who perform, not them. We are no more responsible for their expectations and desires than a potential employee who interviews for jobs is responsible for what employers require of them to have a shot at getting the job. I’ve argued elsewhere that I think women are perfectly capable of moral agency, but that we’ve given then a social… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

@Divided Line Let’s look at it a couple ways: the first being from the point of view of a father who is responsible for raising a child that you are trying to teach how to be a conscientious adult. This improves the individual child and benefits society as a whole. You must provide and enforce consequences for bad behavior and reward good behavior. Most good parents think of this as their duty and not an ‘option.’ That’s a burden of responsibility to the unwritten social contract. Lots of people ‘opt out’ of this duty as you have no doubt noticed.… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

@Divided Line “Women are the real roadblock to equality. The majority of men would happily drop the burden of performance and we could all frolic in the sunshine of utopian gender equality playland if women made it possible for them to do so.” “So, from my perspective, I’m interested in who is to blame and so far as I can tell, it’s women that stand in the way of equality. If equality were possible, I think it would be great. What a shame it isn’t.” I would take issue with your Socratic premise. In social, political, and intersexual relations, women… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

Ilimitable Man MAXIM #24: “If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways. She will never really believe he is a worthy leader.” http://illimitablemen.com/2015/07/17/fifty-shades-of-red/ If the matriarchy experiences the submissive patriarchy trying to become dominant, the matriarchy will utterly oppose the patriarchy’s plans. The matriarchy has accepted that the patriarchy was submissive and… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Rollo

Who do you think is responsible?

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Three men are responsible
1, fathers.
2,brothers.
3 , desperate BETAS.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ sjfrellc

I don’t know that it’s really a Socratic premise. Socrates did say “make woman man’s equal and she becomes his superior.”

I don’t think any such equilibrium is possible in a post industrial revolution context. All that is possible is increasing male obligations and increasing female privilege. While there was something more like equilibrium once upon a time, let’s face it, men always got the worse end of the deal.

Omegasaurus Rex
Omegasaurus Rex
6 years ago

Alpha…Beta…Hypergamy…Game…Moral Agency…Fark it all, it hurteth my head.
3 days to go.
When I get back to town, I’ll be dusting off my omega skillz and heading for the whorehouse. Then a beer and a feed. Then up the mountains for a ski.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

Socrates did say “make woman man’s equal and she becomes his superior.”

Well, that’s obvious, as lost as it is on most today. I mean, if you let women gain equality with men in the spheres where men previously dominated women, women will have an advantage, because there are other spheres which are dominated by women (taking men and women in the aggregate, not alpha males as compared with all women). It seems obvious enough, yet today virtually everyone is in denial of that.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ The Diplomat “Yes, you can say “why is that MY problem?” and walk away from it. Nobody’s going to stop you. But if you do that, you forfeit your right to complain about how “unjust” the current state of affairs are.” Obviously it’s everybody’s problem, I just don’t believe I have a solution to it. If women are capable moral agents, then shouldn’t we be treating them as such? If they are capable of this, then it’s a matter of changing the public dialogue, I guess, but what else would be possible? And would this even be sufficient? I… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ Novaseeker “Well, that’s obvious, as lost as it is on most today. I mean, if you let women gain equality with men in the spheres where men previously dominated women, women will have an advantage, because there are other spheres which are dominated by women (taking men and women in the aggregate, not alpha males as compared with all women). It seems obvious enough, yet today virtually everyone is in denial of that.” Women’s social power is always going to be conferred by their innate sexual value. Their power is rooted biologically and is guaranteed. Male power, by contrast,… Read more »

Longgone
Longgone
6 years ago

Divided Line

“I don’t have the answer. As for sounding like a whiny victim, I just don’t care.”

For someone that doesn’t care you seem to post a lot.

Longgone
Longgone
6 years ago

Divided Lie
“I just don’t believe I have a solution to it.”
“I have my doubts.”
“I don’t have the answer.”
“I just don’t care.”

Like many concern trolls……

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

I know how to cap Hypergamy.
Let it be the law of the land that makes washing pussy is a crime punishable by the death penalty.

Enjoy the smell.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ Longgone

“For someone that doesn’t care you seem to post a lot.”

I already explained that I’m interested in understanding it. If it’s such a pain to read, you can help me post less by not making me repeat myself.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

Sun Wukong hosted another sublime red pill experience last night. I expounded a bit both on record and off record about how getting through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief or unplugging are beneficial in moving on to “building your empire”. Without acceptance of red pill awareness or any of it’s praxeology, it is hard not to advance in your self improvement and be better at the Game that is life. These are bullet points from Wikipedia Kubler-Ross: “-The Kübler-Ross model postulates a series of emotional stages experienced by survivors of an intimate’s death, wherein the five stages are denial, anger,… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

This is a place of triage, support, and counsel for many broken, angry, despair-filled men to come and get help figuring it all out. I’m glad that Rollo keeps this venue open to everyone. Doesn’t matter what your deal is as long as you can put up with some unpretty truth-slinging. I was one of those broken and angry men when I first started lurking around here on TRM around two-and-a-half years ago. This place saved my bacon. I’m not angry anymore, and I have come to terms with the RP. That’s no small accomplishment at all. You’ve stuck around… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

“I’m not angry anymore, and I have come to terms with the RP. That’s no small accomplishment at all.”

Heheh. There it goes again. Another one accepts the dust.

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

“The Dust.” I like that metaphor. Especially apt since I live in a desert.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

There are plenty of ways that you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him, you can cheat him
You can treat him bad and leave him when he’s down

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I’m gonna get you, too
Another one bites the dust

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

Better to accept it and move on than to bite it.

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

P.S. sjf
You promised you weren’t going to Scotch it up for the Man Table this time. I’m counting on you, Doc.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ sjfrellc “6. Jaded* – MGTOW Permutations: “Fuck learning all these rules. Sex isn’t worth it and women aren’t that fun anyway. The last thing I want to do is learn routines or the 5 stages of pickup. There’s too many websites, too much to read, I can’t remember it all much less sort it all out. Who has all that time to go out and chat up women anyway? It’s not like I see any women under 40 at work at my engineering job to practice on. Video games and porn are more fun and more available. I just… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

“You promised you weren’t going to Scotch it up for the Man Table this time. I’m counting on you, Doc.” The proof will be in the pudding. I didn’t drink at all. Hopefully the sound of me chewing tobacco didn’t make it through to the microphone. And you be sure to tell me if I made any sense. The other guys sure did. And I want to make a disclaimer. Any information on single guy game or divorced guy game is interesting, very interesting, to me as a monogamous middle aged married man (as someone may ask why I engage… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

“If the bar for sexual access was lower, sure, but I don’t have ninja social skills and it seems like a lot of work to acquire them for something that is of questionable value. And I don’t personally value much of what we’re calling alpha traits. It’s not that I think they are worthless, but I’m personally indifferent. They aren’t things I personally strive for.” Ouch! Lower the bar through self improvement and game practice. Get better social skills. Be better at being a man for your own selfish reasons. Value masculine traits. You only have so many trips round… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

@Divided 1) From here it looks like what you’re really angry at is that women aren’t actually the way you want them to be/were taught that they were ‘supposed’ to be. And you’re STILL pedestalizing them if you’re equating them with French aristocracy and yourself with the peasants. Not a constructive POV. So who are you really angry at now? Women? Society? Yourself? This is an important question for you to answer. 2) As far as putting on an “act” for women–once you’ve internalized the RP, it isn’t an act at all. It becomes your nature (Rollo has posited this… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
6 years ago

I’m really looking forward to the latest Man Table. Glad it went so well. I’d really like to participate one of these days, schedule permitting.

longgone
longgone
6 years ago

“At least MGTOW holds the possibility of being able to spend my time and energy doing something I enjoy or care about, because doing the song and dance for women makes me want to blow my brains out at this point. I don’t even know if MGTOW is possible. I like to think it is. Maybe at some point I’ll find the MGTOW zen and no longer think or care about women. Unfortunately it hasn’t happened yet.” Didn’t mean to flip you off as I did, and owe an apology. I just wasn’t sure what you were saying earlier and… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

@The Diplomat “3) The next step in your situation-improvement scenario is making enlightened self-interest your first and only goal.” I like the term enlightened self-interest. Last night we discussed that issue, but using a more awkward term that Sun Wukong brought up as The Value of Time and being “selfish”. Self interest sounds better than the perjorative term selfish. (The value of time being like Kacey Musgrave’s lyric): “‘Cause you just get So many trips ’round the sun Yeah, you only Only live once” “4) Forget about chasing pussy for awhile. Your rage is scaring all the pussy off. Women… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

Another topic we briefly discussed in relationship to Divided Line’s mindset above was the topic of avoiding gumption traps when working on some task with inherent hurdles to overcome. Here is some background information on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumption_trap From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: “A gumption trap is an event or mindset that can cause a person to lose enthusiasm and become discouraged from starting or continuing a project. The word “gumption” denotes a combination of commonsense, shrewdness, and a sense of initiative. Although the last of these traits is the primary victim of the “gumption trap,” the first two suffer indirectly… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Heh, well we sure turned on the advice spigot for Divided Line. Hey dude, I think the men who responded to your predicament recognize that you probably already know and have heard these things before. But hearing them again, in a new way, can be important. I’ll just add that it can be genuinely surprising how much better women treat you – even right upon meeting you! – if you’re in a state of both masculine mastery and positivity. That’s when women can be enjoyable again. It’s important not to expect too much from them. This will make you content… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

We had a good roundtable last night! Thanks to Sun Wukong for hosting, good to talk to ya and SJF again. Good to meet RM lurker Jack-Jack. Was hoping Glenn could make it, but eh, he’s a busy guy. We covered some cool stuff this time. I think y’all will enjoy it. And yup, the doc held off the sauce, and all I could hear was the occasional clattering of what I now realize was a tobacco tin. SJF, it is frustrating to lack a natural gift at something you admire. Like Salieri in the film ‘Amadeus.’ But for what… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Divided Line:

https://youtu.be/HGEO6ig8WsM

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

Happy Anniversary Rollo!

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@FTS 11:05am

The great part of the video is when Tyler shifts to beta mode, same guy, same clothes, watch the women

Excalibur
Excalibur
6 years ago

Alpha males aren’t all that. They can be ignored as well. We’re talking about baboons here in this article, but is it applicable to human behavior?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3168293/Have-baboons-developed-DEMOCRACY-Decisions-group-despite-presence-dominant-individuals.html

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Rollo,

As an acolyte of Roissy, I suggest getting your wife an unsigned birthday card and a bag of skittles.

just getting it
just getting it
6 years ago

The very thought of being responsible for todays women is laughable, but as ever with women, what has been said is not as per first reading: Juggle it round a bit and it says ‘Stay engaged with us and you might be able to change our behaviour’. Any man with a passing aquaintance with the pill knows this to be so much bunk – just extending hope to the worshippers of the the vag. This is important to me because I want to assess my chances in any game I participate in. If I see myself as an also-ran in… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Just getting it,

the key is to not make changing women your objective. If men are to change women at all – and I don’t really think it’s our responsibility, but suppose it is – it doesn’t change our modus operandi.

Have a mission. Have requirements for the people you keep around you based upon your needs, and if they don’t meet them, next.

As you note, it’s a fool’s errand to try and change women directly. Really that applies to anyone, not just women.

Chump No More
Chump No More
6 years ago

@SJF, thanks for getting the thread back on track! I’m also a natural observer and continue to find men’s journey through the ‘stages’ fascinating. No journey is the same. I went through ‘denial’ and ‘anger’ pretty quickly, but took up residence in ‘bargaining’ for many months. For the uninitiated, this is where the purple pill lives… which is no doubt why I stayed waaaaay past the expiration date on Athol’s forum. I can remember the exact day and moment I graduated from ‘bargaining’. It was the day I internalized all my progress since taking the RP, re-captured my self worth,… Read more »

Chump No More
Chump No More
6 years ago

And speaking of “there is no alpha with a side of beta”…

Alpha = in my frame
Beta = not in my frame

Maybe I’m over simplifying, but it works for me.

just getting it
just getting it
6 years ago

Hi Forge, I’ve got plenty of missions thanks, I’m just in disbelief that some femmy complaint of ‘you could stop us being like we are’ is getting so much buy in and response. There’s a time and a place for everything, and women aren’t everything. I’m just saying that the complaint thrown at us shows again that women don’t know what they want, expect men to foot the bill always, it’s always men’s fault, blah, blah, blah, but please don’t ignore us – you’ll have to sort this out when it goes south. I can’t see how that got taken… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

I appreciate the thoughtful comments and advice, guys. Thanks.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

I agree. It’s a frame grab at a societal level. Frankly guys lost in this ‘is it our responsibility to change women?’ are, in my opinion, stuck in the bargaining stage – at least with this aspect of the RP.

It’s kinda like the purple-pill ‘maybe if I change my behavior to be more masculine she’ll love me back’ kinda thinking.

But this is the place to hash these things out.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@redlight

Yeah, that was a real eye-opener for me.

If most girls are being bitches to you, it’s not because they’re mostly bitches. It’s because you’re beta.

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

@scribble, good lord are you a stupid brainwashed faggot.

Highwasp
Highwasp
6 years ago

me too anonymous scribblerg : “This thread is for shit. I’m out.” I’ve read some good ‘shit’ from you in the past but this thread has proved the description ‘asshole’ to fit you perfectly. I see you have a few more panic attacks and fainting spells to endure before your brain switches or melts. – who’s the dead beats and racist now…? what to do as ‘your’ children and ‘coloreds’ abandon you… bleed bitch, bleed. ~ you shit down the throats of dead beats and racists like a bleeding bitch paints the face of her cuckold beta boy… oh agh… Read more »

cheupez
6 years ago

“I hate you for the sacrifices you made for me
I hate you for every time you ever bled for me
I hate you for the way you smile when you look at me
I hate you for never taking control of me….

I hate you for every kind word you ever said
I’ll bleed you dry now…

Blood, blood, blood
Pump mud through my veins
Shut your dirty, dirty mouth
I’m not that easy…”

Wow!

@ Rollo

That is a concise summary of the Rational Male! I think every line in those lyrics is worth a post!

trackback

[…] for you girls staring at your screen with your jaws on the floor, click here and here if you’d like some insight on who’s “fault” all of this is and why […]

Pete
Pete
6 years ago

Mainland China is increasing run by women and women’s imperatives. Husbands do what the wife tells him to, he does not go out if she does not agree, etc.

The outer trappings may still be there, but like Russia, society – and the family in particular – is run by the women

Tim
Tim
6 years ago

The only reason women didn’t divorce more often in days past is because of the stigma of divorce and because they were financially dependent on men. That’s the only thing that kept their naturally entitled, narcissistic, hypergamous natures in check. The no-fault divorce law was written by the National Association of Women Lawyers (NAWL) for the express purpose of making it easy for women to divorce their husbands while simultaneously allowing them to keep their husband’s assets and income. Of course, the white knight, captain-save-a-ho, mangina governor and legislature (Ron Reagan) voted no-fault divorce into law. What followed over the… Read more »

Andrew
Andrew
6 years ago

Men are responsible for the state of affairs in any society; regardless of whether they want to be or not. Men build the infrastructure, fight the wars, and enforce the laws. Similarly, no push for social change can ever take hold without men standing aside and refusing to push back against it. Do any of you think women would have taken up arms for their right to vote? Or can you imagine even a single woman physically fighting against sexism? No, the idea is laughable. Why isn’t gun ownership a requirement of feminist empowerment? Because women have no interest in… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

@andrew
“In which case you’re got a significant population of men who’ve had enough, but lack the discipline, courage, and organizational skills necessary to assert themselves without a keyboard.”
Nothing beats person to person communication.

trackback
6 years ago

[…] Divided Line came on with such a strong take on Our Sisters’ Keeper I had to riff on […]

trackback

[…] Our Sisters’ Keeper […]

trackback
6 years ago

[…] needs. The confusion comes from men who want for a similar justice to the one I outlined in Our Sister’s Keeper. Self-importance or narcissism would seem to be a more appropriate term for this dynamic, but I […]

Pwn
Pwn
6 years ago

I do think men are to blame because we gave women the vote. That was a massive shit test men fell for. Given that women, largely, don’t act like moral agents, treating them as such outside day to day thing is not only stupid, but also cruel(if they’d be held accountable as men are, anyway). Girls are awesome in their sweet, quasi innocent state and being involved in politics not only ruins them for us, most of the women I know who are politically active are miserable/sad. My preference for late teens, early twenties women is mainly a function of… Read more »

trackback

[…] the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness […]

trackback
4 years ago

[…] of women who can no longer process these changes without mens’ direct instruction. In Our Sisters’ Keeper I explored the notion that women of today are merely the women we deserve because men have kept […]

Omega Man
Omega Man
4 years ago

“@Tom is right, the ghettoes of major American cities are an excellent example of the results of unrestrained hypergamy in action. They are female-dominated, males are peripheral and often absent, and females compete to mate with the few alphas around, who are usually hardened criminals likely to be killed or go back to prison at any time. Females happily get pregnant by these alphas, and raise the kids alone or with help from older female relatives, with the kids usually growing up to repeat the cycle. Incidentally, these neighborhoods are usually high-crime, with the few males around murdering each other… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
4 years ago

In the 20th century the dominant political and economic ideologies were capitalism, communism and fascism. Fascism was militarily defeated. Though the ideology is never far from the political arena, in times of economic hardship. While external forces, help to bring about the demise of communism. It’s generally perceived to have failed of it’s own accord. An inherent component that made it incompatible with progress and self determination. Even those who once espoused communism, are now, loath to do so. I write about these competing ideologies, to illustrate the way in which the credibility of an idea ceases to be. The… Read more »

jsolbakken
jsolbakken
4 years ago

Men are to blame if and when they tolerate women’s unacceptable behavior. The reason I’m MGTOW is because I’m inclined to avoid and reject all women completely rather than fuss around trying to figure out if a particular woman is capable of acting acceptably. You non-MGTOW guys should appreciate the fact that the more of us MGTOW’s there are, the greater the leverage that other men will have in their relationships with women. MGTOW reduces the number options women have. It’s like people leaving the auction, or not entering the market in the first place. Fewer bidders for women helps… Read more »

trackback

[…] bad, evil treatment of men This is a play on the personal responsibility trope. I covered this in Our Sisters’ Keeper. It really comes down to the capacity men believe women have or don’t have with regard to […]

Brittles
Brittles
3 years ago

I tend to agree with imnobody00: “The only way to stop that is having a patriarchal religion (Churchianity does not qualify in this category). When people are more focused on their personal happiness or pleasure, they always end up giving concessions to the Feminine Imperative (because it is the default setting) until getting to the mess we are now in. But, if you are more focused on serving God, you are less easily manipulated by women. For example, if you think God forbids casual sex (as I do) and you forbid casual sex in your society, you have forbidden AFBB… Read more »

SK
SK
2 years ago

Blaming others is an ego’s defense mechanism, lest it face the pain of taking responsiblity.

weminuche45
weminuche45
2 years ago

Women act like children unless they find acting like an adult is in their better interest. At present they are children with dynamite, so most do whatever the F they want and blame everyone but themselves….like a spoiled kid.

On an individual level, vote with your feet if she wont own her shit.

anythinggoes75
anythinggoes75
2 years ago

As I read these older posts, I’m just going to proof-read the minor typos I notice for future reference for the author, no disrespect is intended at all. See the [ _? ] in quotations. “I understand [the?] axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.” “All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action [s?] with the concept of justice held by men.” “However, those observation [s?] are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to… Read more »

info
info
1 year ago

There is a time for men step up in regards to holding women accountable. That is violent crime and false accusations.

Proper penalties for all said crime is one way that is men’s duty to enforce Justice in society.

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