Our Sisters’ Keeper

sister's_keeper

“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.”

This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.

When I read it from women it’s kind of ironic considering it usually comes from women who share in the same moral absolutism, who were “so different when they were in college”, but they’ve had their Epiphany and “got right with God.” They often cling to the Strong Independent® identity for themselves, but turn over a rock and show them the visceral, observable, ugly truth of unfettered Hypergamy and then, then it’s men’s partial or total responsibility for fostering women’s conditions.

It becomes men’s fault for not having the fortitude and presence of mind to correct them when they needed it – never mind the lifetime of Blue Pill conditioning that taught them judging women made them misogynistic assholes. I understand axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.

From Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:

The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

As I was writing the Adaptations series it occurred to me that men on the ends of both the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.

As I stated in the last post, Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient. However, men’s adapting to the “market” dictates of Hypergamy has to be equally efficient if that guy is to fulfill his own sexual imperative. Pragmatism doesn’t have time for how things should be. You make the best play with what’s in front of you.

Just to illustrate, for about 25 years or so, popular culture strongly pointed men towards a sexual strategy that could be defined as Beta Game. Play nice, respect a woman by default, be supportive of her self-image and ambitions to the sacrifice of your own, don’t judge her and do your utmost to identify with the feminine, was the call to action that, deductively, should make a man more attractive to a woman.

Furthermore, the intrasexual combat amongst men for sexual qualification was (at least ostensibly) focused on out-supporting, out-sympathizing, out-emoting and out-identifying with the feminine more so than other men. To set oneself apart from “other guys” the seemingly most strategic tact was to accept what women said they wanted from men. To pragmatically effect this men gladly joined the chorus of ridiculing conventional masculinity; denouncing and resisting the very element that would in fact have set them apart from the nebulous “other guys“.

So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man.

Women and Moral Agency

For as long as I’ve read and commented on Christo-Manosphere blogs a common thread has cropped up again and again; the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men. I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.

My point here isn’t to reheat that debate, but rather to see how it feeds into the rationale that men are in some way responsible for what contemporary women have become, and how they’ll progress if men don’t assume some responsibility for women’s behaviors.

Hypergamy is pragmatic, but it’s also inherently duplicitous. It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance. When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.

For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.

All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action with the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice. Up until the sexual revolution the balance between the sexes’ concepts of justice was mitigated by mutual compromise – each had something to lose and something to gain by considering the other sex’s imperatives.

For roughly the past 70 years this balance between the two concepts has listed heavily to the feminine. Our age has been defined by women’s unilateral and ubiquitous control of Hypergamy, and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.

Along with that unprecedented control comes the prioritizing of women’s concept of justice above that of men’s. We can see this evidenced in every law, social convention or social justice movement that entitles women to rights and privileges that free them of any accountability for the negative consequence their Hypergamously based behavior would hold them to in a concept of justice that men would have.

I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes.

Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter:

1 The woman is always the victim

2 Nothing is her fault

3 She is not responsible for her actions

4 A man is to blame

To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.

The problem I see in assigning the blame of women’s behavior to men’s lack of control is that, presently, men have no real control nor does men’s concept of justice align with that of women. There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.

That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.

And yes, that’s pretty fucked up if you, again, find yourself on the sharp end of it. Men’s adapting to the intersexual conditions set by women isn’t some deterministic prospect, but the idea that the mass majority of men would be responsible for the state women find themselves in is ludicrous. There will always be men willing to accept the sexual dictates of women because it serves their breeding imperatives. It’s good for him personally and it’s good for the species.

There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it.

Personal Responsibility

On a final note here, whenever I delve into the ethical implications of Red Pill awareness I invariably run into the personal responsibility equation. I do my best to make as coldly rational an observation of dynamics I see and allow my readers to make their own judgements. However, those observation are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to acting out.

There is always a want on the part of either sex to see their concept of justice enacted on those who would act against it. Thus you get honor killing in the Muslim world, and you have men’s access to the DNA testing of children they suspect aren’t their own denied in the “best interest of the child.”

So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Andy
Andy
6 years ago

She uses the orgazm scheme as a leverage.

I’ll take your words for it. I only brought it up because in my case it seemed like a completely involuntary almost panicky response.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Rollo
What a great song.
The song should be the manosphere’s
National Anthem.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

Not sure if I should take that as an insult or a compliment.

Either way, I grow more cynical by the minute.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

SFC Ton: ” . . .the proper place of women (and kids and what are women but the oldest teenager in the house?) is as property. ” Rollo: “Maybe we are our sisters’ keepers,…we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.” There ya go. That’s why I keep hammering away at pointing out the critical role of the Tender Years Doctrine. And what is necessary to keep them? Force. And what has the FI taught that a man should never, ever do, even in self defence? Now, let’s not always see the same hands. Footnote: Even RazorBladeKandy,… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Andy: “. . . I grow more cynical by the minute.”

Good man.

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@Rollo

“Maybe we are our sisters’ keepers,…we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.”

Alpha (Game) is the only manner which garners women’s attention and respect in the SMV.

Perhaps only Alpha males are qualified to take on the burden. At least for now in todays climate.

So, if you take on that responsibility. . . Alpha up.

Let’s face it even in other spheres like business, sports, movies/entertainment and politics, Alpha rules. . . . . It’s like we never left the Serengeti.

Great lyrics. . . I’m gonna save em.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

…we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.

We wonder why Islam is the fastest growing religion.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“. . . It’s like we never left the Serengeti.”

There ya go. You can take the man out of the Serengeti, but the moment you take the Serengeti out of the man, he ceases to be a man.

And beyond the Serengeti there is still the world, and then the universe. The problem with hating the game is that game runs by the rules of natural law. To hate the game is to hate reality. That way lies madness.

Embrace the game. Learn the rules. Play it well.

lh
lh
6 years ago

scribblerg July 16th, 2015 at 11:53 am “Sadly, the other thing about last night was that I mostly got IOIs from the 40+ and fatties(getting older has consequences). There were only two hotties in the joint who met my standards but they were both with boyfriends AND orbiters, lol.” That’s what I was talking about. There are those where you think “could I get drunk enough to fuck her?”, which will easily be crazy for you. And there are those you call “hotties” which you’d like to fuck, but aren’t interested in you. Now you could of course say, that’s… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Rollo,

I pose the hypothesis that all it takes to keep them (in line) is decent provisioning, a functioning personality, and one or two good open handed slaps that imply the possibility of much worse.

Vulpine
Vulpine
6 years ago

When I read “sperm is cheap” and “pussy is cheap”, or “beta attention is cheap”, well… I have to try and see the whole picture to make sense of the reality of those statements. Indeed, sperm IS cheap, as is beta attention, sluts, eggs, retards, fatties, and a whole host of garbage people: there is an over-abundance of people, period. Overpopulation is the fault of women. Fact. Truth. An axiom. Feminists love to tell men that only women can have babies. Well, good job. Now, shut up and eat your cake. If supply and demand were considered in this “sisters’… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@Andy There definitely is a chasm between Islam and the West. I think you put your finger on it, ‘Women’ or Women’s rights are the central issue. IMO Let’s face women are the story of history of the last 100 years. . . Fuck the Arabs and their ‘dark age’ view of humanity. . . You can have it. I also lament tradition. . . .but you need to be a realist. . . Become hard, wear it like a badge of honor. . . . Right now I have more action than I can handle. . . To me… Read more »

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ Rollo Nice one. That says it all. I think it’s true about being our ‘sisters’ keepers’ — the name of the ‘keeping’ game is just different than what most of us have thought. FWIW, the first girl I ever hooked up with, and who still contacts me regularly, was afraid of me. She told me later that while I was driving her back to my house, and we went past the graveyard, she started panicking because she thought I was going to murder her there and dump her body somewhere. When I got pissed, she would know it. I… Read more »

Sun Wukong, God of Sluts
Sun Wukong, God of Sluts
6 years ago

Alright, if the ladies expect us to keep them in check, here’s their first lesson:

Jeremy
6 years ago

…I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

The best approach is to have absolutely no delusions, no fantasy, no hope of any reciprocation from women. You will gain respect and freedom by having no respect. Give respect sparingly and only after very careful consideration. Consider this. No woman is worthy of your respect. Respect yourself and expect her to also respect you. If she doesn’t, she is not worth your time. The best approach is fuck and dump. Women are to be fucked not worshiped.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“PLAY SPORTS . . . road bike.”

Just back in from 24 miles of zone 2 on about as nice a day as can be expected in mid July. I’ll do another 16 in the evening before dinner.

” Respect yourself and expect her to also respect you.”

Especially your mother. There are no exceptions. AWALT.

“The best approach is fuck and dump.”

But only if you get to be king. Wear eye protection.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@Sun, That was an entertaining vid. Funny thing about women and their ” requirements ” that I’ve noticed. The women in my life, aged 18-30, all speak of their ” requirements ‘ ( I constantly have a house filled to the brim with females. Sister-in-laws, Goddaughters, Daughter’s friends… I frequently get estrogen poisoning ) but once again, you must watch what they do and not what they say. the consensus usually goes thusly : Man must be 6ft tall or taller. Man must have a ” nice body ” meaning not to muscular but ” toned “. Man must dress… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@LH – I pretty much have no idea what you are going on and on about. I’m 53 and some young hotties are still interested in me. In part that’s because I’ve been fucking young hotties my whole life – before the red pill. I don’t engage in all the gnashing of teeth about this that you do. Also the bar we went to had plenty of hotties last time I was there. I have purposely situated myself near a town that has 4 colleges but is surrounded by rural countryside where most young guys are fucking retarded losers and… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

There is a lot of complaining, regret, resentment and anger here. I don’t think that is bad as many assume. Mans regret, resentment and anger is considered by default to be unjustified and just another negative masculine trait. We are automatically accused of being immature, etc. Yet there is justifiable reason for this anger. We did not dream up these negative destructive conditions. We were born into a social construct that imposes this frustrating, bewildering condition upon us. I am enraged. I would like to dig up my dead mother bring her back to life, cut out her genitals, ram… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

And what has the FI taught that a man should never, ever do, even in self defence?

Raise your hand if any woman has ever called the cops on you.

Lololzlolzlolz

theasdgamer
6 years ago

How does a man get over the anger ?

Time. You are grieving over the loss of the Matrix.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Raise your hand if any woman has ever called the cops on you.”

That gets back to what I said earlier about “real” MGTOW. Their issue isn’t with pussy, it’s with White Knights.

“Time.”

But a heavy bag or makiwara can help speed it up.

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@scribblerg “you would benefit from focusing on self improvement and internal game versus reverse psychologizing the solipsistic hamster and analyzing shit until your head explodes.” To many dudes suffer from Analysis Paralysis. . . creative destruction . . . fail quickly, learn and move on. . . . @kfg Sounds like a good ride. . . Find a route with some hills or inclines, give you intervals and bring you up to zone 5 and help max your VO2. I got a 26 miler in my hood with plenty of high grade inclines. . . . Or when I go… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Not Born This Morning

How does a man get over the anger ?

For me, reading here created a “Jesus” moment where I realized… that I could forgive women, for they know not what they do.

They really don’t. They think they do, they think their behavior is empathetic and appropriate. But they’re really clueless about men, terribly terribly clueless. Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier.

Sun Wukong, God of Sluts
Sun Wukong, God of Sluts
6 years ago

@Jeremy

Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier.

^This

To get rid of the rest of the anger? Stop thinking you can teach them. Ever. Women are only available as-is. They will never improve and may well get worse. Caveat emptor.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Find a route with some hills or inclines, give you intervals and bring you up to zone 5 . . .” My all time KOM (and a second age group, 55 to 64, KOM) of a couple of days ago took me to zone 7. I’m planning another tomorrow. Rest is important for improvement. One of my standard jokes is that when I leave my house I have my choice of any of the four directions: up, up, up and up. I live at the bottom of a river valley. On one side it cuts a gorge through an escarpment.… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@kfg

Damm, I’d ride with ya. . . don’t think I could keep up.

Retired? . . Did you ride in the Tour?

Fasted I ever went down hill was 52 mph . . Holy shnikeez. I pulled up cuz I was fraid! lol

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@Mr T, ” Being able to give women 10 orgazms means zero credit. She just have to lean on the laundry machine to get orgazm. She uses the orgazm scheme as a leverage. For women having an orgazm is like taking a piss. Giving her best orgazm or her best piss? Women themselves don’t understand men’s obsession in women’s piss (I mean orgazm). ” I have to emphatically, but respectfully disagree with you on this. A woman’s orgasm provided by mechanical means is as different as a man jacking off orgasm is different from orgasm through sex. …I’m butchering my… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Damn Rollo, there you go challenging my deeply held anecdotal beliefs. Lulz. Okay, I get where the *science* studies are coming from, but I’m specifically talking about relatively ” normal ” folks. The Dark Side of Oxytocin makes references to people being disposed to aggression or social ” ills ” or anxiety etc. The Oxfordjournals abstract is a bit more puzzling for me as it doesn’t jive with my personal experiences or observations. In an effort to stick with my version of the ” truth ” : ) I say that the study referencing intranasal administration of oxytocin may be… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Oh, and Correction: In 2015 anxiety IS a normal mental state.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Did you ride in the Tour?” I hit Europe a bit before Jock Boyer, but if you look in the history books you’ll find him credited with being the first American to break into the European pro circuit, and my name absent. I wouldn’t take La Bomba. At the time that was amphetamines washed down with cocaine laced brandy. I wasn’t some dumb farm kid, I knew what that shit was and what it did to you. I trained with a couple of pro teams, but was never selected to race. In their eyes I wasn’t willing to “act like… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

Re:Anger – It depends on what you are angry about. In my case it was due to the loss of the dream of a traditional life and family life and all the goals and dreams and hopes and identity that came along with it. That required me to do some very deep introspection on my my identity and self image which resulted in about a year of rage which some folks on this site witnessed. Reinventing yourself at 52 is not easy but I’m on the other side of it now. I had to give up seeing myself and valuing… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@Jeremy “For me, reading here created a “Jesus” moment where I realized… that I could forgive women, for they know not what they do. They really don’t. They think they do, they think their behavior is empathetic and appropriate. But they’re really clueless about men, terribly terribly clueless. Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier” Thanks for the response. My life would be a lot happier without the internal rage. I have considered the possibility that they do not know the effects of what they are doing but unlike… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“If they do not know what they are doing, then why are they so successful at it?”

The flower does not know that it has ultraviolet arrows on its petals, directing bees to go where it benefits the flower.

The bees do not know what an arrow is, but they follow it anyway, because it benefits them and they do not know that it’s a trick the flower plays on them.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Blaximus
Two topics drives men crazy(not me)
The first one AF/BB.
The second, women’s orgasmos.
The orgazm scheme was first marketed (according to me) by brothels to make beta men pay extra $50 for an orgasmic experience with a prostitute and then it was picked up by feminists who married betas to give them an incentive to buy her a nice laundry machine and might as well do the laundry and then you sure are promised a pure real moaning sound.
Pretty simple isn’t it?.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Lmao…

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

One more thing,
Are we men supposed to be blamed for not giving women the orgazm too?
My answer is a big no and I put the blame on them.

Ps
I still blame the betas for feeding Hypergamy.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Oh, now I know why women love fucking beta husband on the laundry machine .
It’s the vibration stupid!
And you stupid beta thought it was you who were producing the orgazmos.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

@ Scribbler G “3. Work on making yourself your mental point of origin. When you become truly self loving and self focused getting so pissed of will immediately seem self destructive. 5. Build real world relationships with other like-minded positive men who you can share the journey with.” Going back to Rollo’s essay on “Mental Point of Origin” I would like to point out an observation of mine. In relationships with girlfriend/wife/family/boss/business partner, it is valuable to have yourself as your mental point of origin. I have a different mental point of origin when it comes to my relationship with… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@kfg

Props man. I’ve often thought yours are the best 50-word comments on the Manosphere. Always on point.

And I love cycling, so that’s awesome to hear about.

And the random facts on diverse topics! Even as a kid people called me ‘tidbit’ because I always had some random apropos fact or analogy, so it’s fun for me to see that done so well by someone else.

(I don’t often write fan letters, you should be honored :P)

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@kfg

“The flower does not know that it has ultraviolet arrows on its petals, directing bees to go where it benefits the flower.”

If you want to debate or discuss anything with me or any other rational logical thinker like myself you need to first understand that analogies prove nothing. They may illustrate illusions, assumptions, and fantasies, hoped for or they may be used to support lies. But they will never convince anyone like me of anything. I was writing about human males and females not flowers and bees.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@Forge the Sky

@kfg

“Props man. I’ve often thought yours are the best 50-word comments on the Manosphere. Always on point.

And I love cycling, so that’s awesome to hear about……..”

In other words….

Oh my gosh! you’re such a cool dude!! Like really man. Can we be betas together? Oh it would soooo make me happy! We can have our very own beta bromance…

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Not Born This Morning It sucks to hear about how your mother treated you. I don’t know details, but it sounds like it was pretty bad. And that shit gets baked into the cake, there’s no unbaking it. I’ve studied developmental psychology, and from what (admittedly little) we know of it, it seems that the emotions you feel in early life become the sort of ‘base state’ for you later, and other emotions are achieved and maintained only with effort. Suspicion, rage, hurt, terror…. That’s your reality man. It’s what you come back down to when all else is equal.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@NBTM

Haha, the different ways we chose to respond to each other’s comments is kinda enlightening, don’t ya think?

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Here is my simple conviction of why betas are the cause,
When a woman needs money, she goes down the street looking for an ATM machine, now, she loves the ATM machine because it gives her money but she’s not IN love with the ATM machine.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@NBTM I have considered the possibility that they do not know the effects of what they are doing but unlike you (apparently) I cannot accept that as reality. This is perhaps due to psychological and physical abuse I suffered from my mother during childhood and my personal experiences with women. Perhaps I am too “warped” by personal experience to think “they’re really clueless about men”. I went through the same, and yeah it warps your views, but it doesn’t prevent you from getting what he’s saying. Maybe you are attempting to be the greatest “White Knight” of all by offering… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Forge: “I don’t often write fan letters, you should be honored” Thank you. @NBTM: “I was writing about human males and females not flowers and bees.” I was writing about evolutionary biology, which applies to all sexually reproducing biological life, not restricted even to that on Earth. Aristotelian logic can be applied to the analysis of our base drives, but our base drives are not founded in Aristotelian logic. They are pragmatic, empirical. The fundamental problem in psychology is that we must use the mind to examine itself, and the mind itself is limited by the very things we are… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@Rollo Tomassi

Very interesting research on oxytocin, makes sense because the “discovery” logically fits with the behavior. Thanks for sharing it.

@Forge the Sky

Thanks for your response, I take it to be sincere and appreciate the sincerity. Regardless of how useful your thoughts may or may not be to me, they are sincere and that alone is productive. Your thoughts are much like @kfg; analogies and assumptions. I see how you can appreciate his thoughts, you relate to them well. No harm in that, just not the realm I prefer to indulge anymore….found it worthless.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

There’s a lot of great stuff in this thread! It’s great so see some of these ideas being hashed out, this topic is pretty fundamental. I’m mostly with Sun Wukong on this; I think that the concept of ‘blame’ towards one gender is inaccurate here, these are just the logical mass movements that happen in response to our environmental technological and fiscal circumstance, and our gender ratio. And I think we need a pretty rigorous definition of ‘morality’ before we start to explore whether or not women possess the equivalent ‘moral agency’ as men. But I do think it’s really… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@kfg – “I was writing about evolutionary biology, which applies to all sexually reproducing biological life, not restricted even to that on Earth.” The biology classes I took taught us that humans and bees and flowers do not have the same sexual reproductive habits, physiology, or hormones. Has something changed? Do you have a bee penis? WTF? All living things now share the same sexuality? We have now evolved beyond androgyny and now all sexuality among all living things in the universe is equal? To infinity and beyond! We have at last achieved ultimate sexual equality with everything! Yea! at… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong

Thank you.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@Forge the Sky – “And I think we need a pretty rigorous definition of ‘morality’ Morality is nothing more than a contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics If you think my definition is horribly cynical and nihilistic please consider those are adjectives, applied for negative effect to imply my definition is invalid or false. This is the big red pill. Please consider the reality of this with all caveats, hopes, fears, and other imaginings removed. Strip it down to the bare facts only. What other logical conclusion can one derive from the evidence?… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
6 years ago

I see DeJa Vu all over again. Over and over. The latest is NBTM’s angry screed. I was driving home from dinner tonight and I was having a “discussion” with my wife. Barely keeping myself to the rule of “fight club–don’t talk about it” As she faked interest in my latest passions, I was recounting a round-about discussion how in certain grief/loss/frustration situations I have used the statement that “I’m not that good at Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression. I’m much better at Acceptance”. She said “That sounds canned, like you thought about it before.” (When I finished telling her about… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@NBTM – Profound shit, buddy, wow. I’m with you in the sense that I don’t let any sentient human being off the hook for their behavior. Everyone is accountable, but to me, “responsibility” is a different thing. I had a client who was a head shed for a bunch of cognitive scientists building agent based models to simulate behavior in many different settings and was forced to dive in and learn a bit. I think Sam Harris did a really good job of summarizing some of this in his talk on Free Will – https://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g At any given moment we… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“The biology classes I took taught us that humans and bees and flowers do not have the same sexual reproductive habits, physiology, or hormones.” Well duh. Bees are not fish that breath air and walk on land. Nonetheless, the nature of bees and the nature of fish that breath air and walk on land derive from and follow exactly the same, basic natural laws. I’ve mentioned before that there are species that don’t even know that they have offspring. Fish are among them. How can they not know? They don’t have to. Simply knowing what a child is means we’ve… Read more »

Tom...
Tom...
6 years ago

@447 I think the deduction you make based on your premises, is sound, but I’m not sure that is of any benefit in today’s environment. How would it benefit any man to assume the responsibility of being his sister’s keeper when he barely has the power to defend himself? The courts, politicians, power corporations and even the military are all arrayed against masculinity. It’s only pragmatic to focus on the areas we actually control and slowly expand that power. Men need to look for ways to advocate for their interests prudently, taking the present political climate into consideration. That may… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

RED ALERT – DANGER – EVERY MAN IN THE MANOSPHERE NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS A Canadian man is facing jail time for “harassing” two feminists on Twitter. The court case is going now. But here’s the shocking thing – he didn’t threaten them, he didn’t even call them names. He just disagreed with their politics vociferously and relentlessly – and they were able to get charges brought. Listen to this report – even the wildly feminist reporter updating us on this in the video can’t accept it (although she tries). This is truly terrifying for all men online.… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“What other logical conclusion can one derive from the evidence?”

That, as other animals display behaviours that reflect a morality, there is an element of it that is biologically hard wired to ensure survival of the species.

Tom...
Tom...
6 years ago

One last point.
During WWII, Americans allied with Russia to fight the Nazis. In the middle east, we’re currently allied with terrorists who are fighting terrorists who we financed to fight other terrorists who we financed who…
You get the picture.
The nascent manosphere/men’s rights movement needs to focus on small victories and alliances instead of ideological purity. The strongest allies we can find today are pragmatic women. However, many of these women may recoil at the thought of a masculine “keeper”.
This discussion, while thought provoking, is premature. Save it for VF day (Victory over Feminism).

Tom...
Tom...
6 years ago

@scribbleg
Use TOR. The onion router. Read about online privacy. I read the news and TOR is #1 on my list of things to do.

Gurney Halleck
Gurney Halleck
6 years ago

A bit off-topic, but I do wish Rollo would re-evaluate Heartiste. Heartiste uses manospheric themes as a basis for his real interest, which is white nationalism. This impacts the sincerity of his manosphere related posts.. I recently raised the point in one of his threads that his overall points seemed to be encouraging the idea that all betas and sub-betas needed to do in order to overcome their problems with women was apply sheer will. In an admittedly somewhat trollish tone, I took the firm position that all that mattered were looks and the men having issues with women were… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

“But not so far that we need to know what we are in order to be” I think we (men and women) do know. we are aware of our mortality, we are forewarned of the consequences of our actions. We have the ability to objectively consider the consequences of our actions proactively probably more than any other creature. This is part of our ability to be so creative. We are reflective. I would agree that men are more than women. But I think women aren’t far behind and they certainly aren’t so far behind that they are unable to foresee… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@NBTM: “We have the ability to objectively consider the consequences of our actions proactively probably more than any other creature. ”

Absolutely, but that does not imply limits to our objectivity, or that those limits are not actually quite extensive.

“I think women aren’t far behind . . .”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8DNGh126oM

@Gurney:

I think it would be more fair to say that Heartiste does not favour the eradication of race. That he/they is just as much a Yamato nationalist as a white nationalist.

That families should be allowed to live together.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

. . . that does not imply NO limits to our objectivity . . .

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Tom – Yeah, TOR is an IP anonymizer – I’m in the tech business and know all about it. I’ve used two different ones and had all kinds of performance and application problems, they are not great in some ways. There are actually a number of options aside from TOR. But still, when you comment here, you leaven an email address – you have to. That is associated with a domain. A subpoena is all it takes, and voila, the ISP who hosts that domain gives you up – and they didn’t have to track your IP at all. This… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

@scribblerg – RED ALERT – DANGER – EVERY MAN IN THE MANOSPHERE NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS I agree this is very dangerous, not just for us but for everyone. The last time people of this nation were pushed to extreme was the mid 1800s. More people died in the American Civil War than all other wars the “United” States has fought including the American Revolution to date. Many of us have fire arms. Many homes contain more guns than family members. There is a lot of anger building up over various liberal agendas incrementally being imposed. People can… Read more »

Tom...
Tom...
6 years ago

@scribblerg
I’ve just been putting in a fake email. I understand my IP is tracked.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@KFG – Oh I needed a good laugh before I go to sleep, that was awesome. She’s kind of hot, and I think her time would be much better spent with her head in that dude’s lap. Yeah, women can run the world – lol, it’s just too perfect, thanks.

BreakinnBenjaminn
BreakinnBenjaminn
6 years ago

You know you’re getting close to the truth when all the pigs start squealing.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNb7W8ZbjI0&feature=player_embedded

Notice the pop up add “Is He Cheating On You”? Specifically “He” not she but “He”. This is very typical of “Is __ Cheating On You” ads found on the internet because we all know that men are the cheaters not women….right?

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Gurney – Hail Warmaster of House Atreides! I loved the Dune books, and even have a weak spot for the movies, as awful as they were in some ways. You are spot on about Heartiste. I detected the white supremacist crap right off the bat and left. There are some white supremacists here. When I hear that crap I just think of my amazing black sister in law (a former homicide cop and secret service agent) and my amazing 6 year old half black niece and try to imagine how they’d feel reading this crap and I know I can’t… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Yeah, women can run the world . . .”

We’ll all be living in grass huts, and unless men build the grass huts, even the grass huts will be crap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAWfK5LEGIg

The thing is that I don’t even think she’s that stupid, per se, just an extreme example of thinking like a woman. She does not approach the problem with objective analysis. To her it is a personal question:

“If I run a mile . . .”

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Tom – I see, I thought the confirm email prevented that but then I thought about it and all you are doing is confirming you are following the blog, the comment posts either. Yeah, use a fake email, good catch that will work here.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

I just think of my amazing black sister in law (a former homicide cop and secret service agent) and my amazing 6 year old half black niece

Their existence doesn’t disprove the reality of racial differences. They’re outliners, assuming they’re as awesome as you make them out to be.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@KFG – That Survivor clip should be shown in every women’s studies program in the world.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Hoellenhun2 – Go suck a pile of dicks, you racist shithead.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

How does a man get over the anger?

You turn it into contempt.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Stop thinking you can teach them. Ever. Women are only available as-is. They will never improve and may well get worse.

“May”?

lh
lh
6 years ago

scribblerg July 16th, 2015 at 4:52 pm Of course I was using you just as an example to make my point, nothing personal. Regarding me, I’m not in the game to get laid or whatever. I’m in for insight and knowledge, to improve my understanding of me and the world. Other than that my goal is to have my needs fullfilled with the least possible time and effort. I’m not willing to spend more than 1 evening a week on pussy. No problem getting it and it also seems -finally- to be the way I can be happy and satisfied… Read more »

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

They think they do, they think their behavior is empathetic and appropriate. But they’re really clueless about men, terribly terribly clueless. Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier

Which option is more comforting mentally: getting hunted down and torn apart by a pack of cunning, ruthless hyenas, or getting trampled to death by a boneheaded, clueless elephant?

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@Gurney Halleck I have always detected racial underpinnings to Roissy’s blog. . . However, I am hesitant to label him . . . I see it more like commentary of the consequences of post-modern, multi-cultural, progressive ideas and there socail manifestations . . . . With a regard to traditional Anglo-saxon cultures and Ancient Greek and Western philosophies . . . . through a dread and fatalistic lens to the ultimate demise of the ‘West’ with a sardonic humorous take. Perhaps I’m being naive. I do agree with you that TRM stands alone. . . . Rollo, IMO, is a… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago
Reply to  70'sAntiHero

Just so we are clear – Roissy and Roosh are full blown race realists – they aren’t limiting themselves to promoting western anglo-saxon culture. I absolutely believe that the classical liberal values which we based the modern world upon are amazing – but they aren’t “white”. They are just ideas. Here’s the giveaway. Note that HollenCracker just breezed by the fact that invalidates his entire belief system: Intra-racial variance wrt on a wide variety of measures, including IQ, crime, and many other factors is greater than the variance of these measures between black and white. I readily agree that blacks… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

should say component not underpinnings. . .

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

During WWII, Americans allied with Russia to fight the Nazis. In the middle east, we’re currently allied with terrorists who are fighting terrorists who we financed to fight other terrorists who we financed who…
You get the picture.

Do you actually believe these were good decisions?

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Now this is Canada, but the same shit is making its way through our society down here. Can’t you see this site being held up as a “hate” site?

They won’t even have to go that far. What we’ll probably see is increased public pressure, mostly from women and white knights, on WordPress, Google, Twitter etc. to practice more heavy-handed censorship in order to prevent “online harassment”, i.e. to delete the account of any user if enough people complain about his “offensiveness”.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Differences between highs and lows WITHIN a group do not discount or magically wash away differences between group AVERAGES. Exceptions may disprove a rule, but they in no way undermine demonstrable patterns.

http://takimag.com/article/equality_wheres_the_evidence_jim_goad/print#axzz3g8Segzjz

Bob
Bob
6 years ago

Hello! I had promised myself to not comment anything anymore on internet,but the discussion here is so interesting that I decided to make an exemption.By the way,I read this blog since several months and in my opinion it’s the blog with the highest standard in the manosphere. @Cave clown,divide line You wrote that in history of mankind one woman reproduced for two men.It seems to much more-at least 3 or 4 men for each woman.And 8000 years ago even 17(!!) http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/17-to-1-reproductive-success It seems to me that hypergamy was running mad…What a unsustainable society where only some percent of men did… Read more »

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

As far as so-called racial differences. One could argue they are government induced. . . . See Milton Friedman, The Law of Unintended Consequences and black poverty and illegitimacy rates post LBJ’s “The Great Society”. No. When sub-Saharan natives were brought over to the US and integrated to the local economy as manual laborers, they were forced to adapt to the social norms of the white majority. When this policy of integration and compulsory acculturation was dismantled by LBJ in order to turn Afro-Americans into a dependent voting bloc of the Democrats, they simply reverted to the social norms they… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

70’sAntiHero – “As far as so-called racial differences. One could argue they are government induced…” I believe those differences are actually long term environmental adaptations. Whether differences are so great as to constitute a general incompatibility between different peoples is another matter altogether. The fundamental obvious difference is culture, and world view which are changeable and fluid over time. Back in college when I read “The Bell Curve” and was troubled by the conclusion the there was a racially inherent difference in intelligence, albeit quite small. I thought Murray and Herrnstein missed the boat by failing to address the impact… Read more »

Bob
Bob
6 years ago

“one woman reproduced for 3 or 4 men” is meant that 3 or 4 times as many women reproduced in history of mankind as men-and 8000 years ago 17 times as many.In one word:harem…

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

The notion that 17th of all men successfully used Stone Age technology to monopolize all material wealth and reproductive opportunity is laughable. What probably happened was a partial extinction with mainly male victims, a combination of prolonged bad weather, tribal wars and severe epidemics.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

correction: one-seventeenth of all men, i.e. less than 6%

bnon
bnon
6 years ago

@hoellenhund2: I’m not arguing for or against the issue at hand itself, but what does material wealth have to do with it? Capital growth and even money are not necessary for a species and animals in a gang can life with several males and females and the pack order still has it that the alpha male is the one using his dick.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

From the article:

Another member of the research team, a biological anthropologist, hypothesizes that somehow, only a few men accumulated lots of wealth and power, leaving nothing for others. These men could then pass their wealth on to their sons, perpetuating this pattern of elitist reproductive success.

It’s not possible to maintain a harem in a Stone Age society without wealth. You need some sort of armed defense force to protect yourself from the masses of men willing to compete with you to the death for sexual access, and you cannot build one without wealth.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ Tom Nice advice about the browser. Thanks for that. I like how after I installed it, it warned me not to maximize my browser window, because that gives sites info about your monitor size, which can be used to track you. Crazy. We’re in a constant war for privacy. @ scribblerg This reminds me of reading about Richard Wurmbrand’s description about when the Bolsheviks were taking over in Romania. You couldn’t say anything. One guy was getting his head shaved at a barber shop and the barber said, “Don’t worry, you’ll look good. Some of the most intelligent men… Read more »

Bellum00
Bellum00
6 years ago

Religious laws make total sense when you look at them from an evolutionary perspective.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

NBTM “Morality is nothing more than a contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics” Of course morality is an abstraction. Using abstractions and analogies is not in and of itself indicative of shoddy or defective thinking. ‘Morality’ can be a useful concept in some cases, but since it has no direct empirical existence it’s difficult to be sure everyone discussing it has the same concept framed around it. It is therefore necessary to carefully define abstractions before debating issues involving them. Of course, as kfg points out, there do seem to be some biological… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

That Elliot guy in the video from TO was one of theirs.
Paid-up male feminist, had been spergily seeking to technically assist his incompetent but socially superior (cough –privileged) assassins as they wormed their way into the spotlight.

Red-on-red, boo-hoo. He wouldn’t want or even understand the assistance or solidarity of unenlightened scum like us. Too bad. Sorry about the wife and starving kids and all, but ..

[ I’m kind of assuming he’s definitely not the “Greg Eliot” who haunts Heatiste’s comms box lol ]

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Not Born This Morning …but unlike you (apparently) I cannot accept that as reality. This is perhaps due to psychological and physical abuse I suffered from my mother during childhood and my personal experiences with women. Perhaps I am too “warped” by personal experience to think “they’re really clueless about men”. This is probably because the nature of human abuse of other humans isn’t something you’ve thought about. This is slightly OT, but watch this video and consider its implications: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9qZVldxHU In that video, they are comparing two movies, “Gone With The Wind.” and “12 Years a Slave”. The difference… Read more »

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