Our Sisters’ Keeper

sister's_keeper

“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.”

This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.

When I read it from women it’s kind of ironic considering it usually comes from women who share in the same moral absolutism, who were “so different when they were in college”, but they’ve had their Epiphany and “got right with God.” They often cling to the Strong Independent® identity for themselves, but turn over a rock and show them the visceral, observable, ugly truth of unfettered Hypergamy and then, then it’s men’s partial or total responsibility for fostering women’s conditions.

It becomes men’s fault for not having the fortitude and presence of mind to correct them when they needed it – never mind the lifetime of Blue Pill conditioning that taught them judging women made them misogynistic assholes. I understand axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.

From Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:

The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

As I was writing the Adaptations series it occurred to me that men on the ends of both the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.

As I stated in the last post, Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient. However, men’s adapting to the “market” dictates of Hypergamy has to be equally efficient if that guy is to fulfill his own sexual imperative. Pragmatism doesn’t have time for how things should be. You make the best play with what’s in front of you.

Just to illustrate, for about 25 years or so, popular culture strongly pointed men towards a sexual strategy that could be defined as Beta Game. Play nice, respect a woman by default, be supportive of her self-image and ambitions to the sacrifice of your own, don’t judge her and do your utmost to identify with the feminine, was the call to action that, deductively, should make a man more attractive to a woman.

Furthermore, the intrasexual combat amongst men for sexual qualification was (at least ostensibly) focused on out-supporting, out-sympathizing, out-emoting and out-identifying with the feminine more so than other men. To set oneself apart from “other guys” the seemingly most strategic tact was to accept what women said they wanted from men. To pragmatically effect this men gladly joined the chorus of ridiculing conventional masculinity; denouncing and resisting the very element that would in fact have set them apart from the nebulous “other guys“.

So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man.

Women and Moral Agency

For as long as I’ve read and commented on Christo-Manosphere blogs a common thread has cropped up again and again; the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men. I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.

My point here isn’t to reheat that debate, but rather to see how it feeds into the rationale that men are in some way responsible for what contemporary women have become, and how they’ll progress if men don’t assume some responsibility for women’s behaviors.

Hypergamy is pragmatic, but it’s also inherently duplicitous. It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance. When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.

For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.

All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action with the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice. Up until the sexual revolution the balance between the sexes’ concepts of justice was mitigated by mutual compromise – each had something to lose and something to gain by considering the other sex’s imperatives.

For roughly the past 70 years this balance between the two concepts has listed heavily to the feminine. Our age has been defined by women’s unilateral and ubiquitous control of Hypergamy, and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.

Along with that unprecedented control comes the prioritizing of women’s concept of justice above that of men’s. We can see this evidenced in every law, social convention or social justice movement that entitles women to rights and privileges that free them of any accountability for the negative consequence their Hypergamously based behavior would hold them to in a concept of justice that men would have.

I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes.

Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter:

1 The woman is always the victim

2 Nothing is her fault

3 She is not responsible for her actions

4 A man is to blame

To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.

The problem I see in assigning the blame of women’s behavior to men’s lack of control is that, presently, men have no real control nor does men’s concept of justice align with that of women. There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.

That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.

And yes, that’s pretty fucked up if you, again, find yourself on the sharp end of it. Men’s adapting to the intersexual conditions set by women isn’t some deterministic prospect, but the idea that the mass majority of men would be responsible for the state women find themselves in is ludicrous. There will always be men willing to accept the sexual dictates of women because it serves their breeding imperatives. It’s good for him personally and it’s good for the species.

There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it.

Personal Responsibility

On a final note here, whenever I delve into the ethical implications of Red Pill awareness I invariably run into the personal responsibility equation. I do my best to make as coldly rational an observation of dynamics I see and allow my readers to make their own judgements. However, those observation are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to acting out.

There is always a want on the part of either sex to see their concept of justice enacted on those who would act against it. Thus you get honor killing in the Muslim world, and you have men’s access to the DNA testing of children they suspect aren’t their own denied in the “best interest of the child.”

So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

scribblerg – “Tell me, what is ‘artificial’ about the state?”

Artificial only the sense it is entirely an intentional construct of man and not naturally organic like say a tree. I see the term as being superior to the merely organic. My view sums up this way: Only God can make a tree, it takes a man to design and execute an 18 hole PGA golf course.

As for your correction: thanks, it is a necessary clarification.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

So when you use artificial as a pejorative, it’s due to a naturalistic fallacy, backed up by deistic divinty? Ya gonna stick with that? Without the state, we are still in the trees. It enables scale in societies that is not accomplishable via other means. It in fact is designed to override what most gibbering morons would “choose” in terms of governance. In its best forms it empower and respects and dignifies the individual in in amazing ways. It’s also cross cultural, occurring across 6 completely separate human civilizations, and emerging about 6000 years ago, as those societies moved from… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Sun:

The geneticists now tell us that the advent of agriculture served as a turbo booster to human evolution.

@Scribbler: “the same thing can be said of places Genghis Khan conquered, as he often created, installed and maintained a more just order than before he came along.”

I think that’s where I came into this movie.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

scciblerg – “So when you use artificial as a pejorative, it’s due to a naturalistic fallacy, backed up by deistic divinty? Ya gonna stick with that?”

I am going to assume my piss poor writing is at fault here.

I believe the artificial (creation of man), is potentially superior to the natural (creation of God, the universe, or whatever) from the human point of view. The tendency to organize and create hierarchies is natural the results are the artificial, manufactured by intent of mind and labor.

I agree the rest of your comment without reservation.

A Definite Beta Guy
6 years ago

States do not exist but by leveraging human impulses. The same genes motivating a man to kill for his tribe of 150 motivates him to kill for a nation of 150 million.

States are not the just institutions arising from consenting individuals as natural law might have us believe, and States are not character-less sets of laws. States are breathing entities, the literal embodiments of the nations they serve.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@kfg Yeah I’ve heard about that. Even heard that it was farming combined with the unusual ocean currents running by Europe that allowed for white people to even come in to existence. It was a place where heavy pigmentation wasn’t needed for protection from the sun, but weather was warm enough to farm. Really an interesting example of farming and its effect on human evolution. Apparently even the mere act of cooking meat instead of consuming it raw made it easier for humans to acquire nutrients, resulting in our larger brains vs. other animals. Fascinating stuff. @sjfrellc Problem from last… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Tempus Should I shoot a text being like “if i have to text u everytime for us hookin up, im eventually gonna drop u” or “no good dick for u unless u initiate!” Both of those are pretty awful ideas. You’re being overt through an ultimatum. Always a way to show your weak position in a relationship. If you want her to crave your time more, she has to value it more. Right now you’re giving it away. Supply and demand. 16th law of power Use absence to increase respect and honor Sounds like she’s due for a little absence.… Read more »

Just Saying
Just Saying
6 years ago

The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Why would I want to stop women from spreading their legs when they are young and attractive? Heck, I’ve been enjoying it for the last 40 years and plan on enjoying it for the next 40 if at all possible. Nothing is better than opening a new one for business. They can blame whomever they want – no one is forcing them to spread their legs or getting nice and wet. I just enjoy them. And who cares if they are used up in 10… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Rollo “Still it’s hard to say “it’s mostly their fault” because they were only following the most deductive, pragmatic path they believed would make them more desirable.” I think betas are 100% sure of their inability to compete with tingle men with or without what they were told by women/feminists. At a certain age the unattractive unsexy beta will come to the realization when he first spot the alpha man walking by him. I know, it is a terrible awakening. Even if women became “financially independent ” and don’t need the beta provisioning, the beta is still useful for foot… Read more »

Alex
Alex
6 years ago

You can’t make a ‘our sister’s keeper’ argument without advocating that women be reduced to the status of children, without the brains to do such things as vote, sign contracts, enter marriage, seek divorce, etc…

Right or wrong, such a thing will never float in this current political climate, where women are the majority of the voters, especially if you add in the p worshipers. Such changes are brought about by force, or collapse… given the state of the world economy, the smart money is on collapse.

Longgone
Longgone
6 years ago

WOW “If women were generally victorious in there imperative we would have to acknowledge it.” WTF? They have been and continue to be “victorious in there(sic) imperative”. Dealing with that “success” is about all we do here. “They are not, and both genders fail because of it.” WTF are you trying to say? Both genders fail because women aren’t victorious? Women aren’t failing, on the contrary have been very successful. Your attempt at cryptic wisdom is rather incoherent. Explain yourself. WOW = War on Women? Troll? “Women are more miserable than ever. They have more tools at their disposable to… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

SunW :-“We find a surprise in seven Scandinavian hunter-gatherers from the Motala site in southern Sweden who lived around 7,700 years before present. While the western hunter-gatherers of central and southern Europe largely have the ancestral allele at the two major European skin pigmentation loci, the closely related Scandinavian hunter-gatherers have both the derived alleles contributing to light skin pigmentation at high frequency (Figure 2B). Thus, the derived allele of SLC24A5 was common in both the Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and Early European farmers, but not in the geographically intermediate western hunter-gatherers.” http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477.full-text.pdf+html At least one of them had red hair, some… Read more »

Signor Farfalla
Signor Farfalla
6 years ago

@Diplomat,

There is no High Fructose Corn Syrup in ‘The Jungle’

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

One more thought!.
There is identical similarity between betas with $$$(can’t make him tingle man)and HBitchs 5.7/5.6 /5.5/5.4/5.3 with a pussy(can’t make tingle man look at them)They both are in denial ,but, not when looking at themselves in front of, say,,a mirror?

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

And yes, I still put the blame on betas for driving up the prices of Hypergamy,not that alphas care, they are getting it for free, it is the other betas who gets screwed.
While betas fight among themselves to make more $$$ to get the HB10 ,the HB10 is fucking the alphas for free .

Signor Farfalla
Signor Farfalla
6 years ago

@Scribblerg,

“Sorry. It’s also completely unsustainable as a social order.”

I’m speaking for Tillikum and might be wrong but I don’t think Tillikum concerns himself with ‘social order’ and that seems to be his point.

Ron
Ron
6 years ago

You say a man’s smv peaks at 37. Yet when I go outside, I never see a young woman with a guy who’s more than 5 years older than herself. 20 year old girls on okcupid generally have an age range of 18-24. Sure, getting sex with same-aged peers probably does become easier over time. But what good does that do me if my same aged peers are 30-something whose sexuality disgusts me as much as mine used to disgust them? Seems to me that a man’s pussy getting days (if he even had any to begin with) are over… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

“So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?” My answer is an affirmative NO to both, if both concern absolutes. Man certainly has influence but not total power and control over woman. Woman also influences man but can never exercise total control. “It takes 2 to tango”. There exists a pendulum… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Ron My ex was 18 and quite hot when we met. I was 34. The relationship lasted over a year. It’s probably easier to one night stand a chick that age with an age difference that big, and definitely easier if you meet them in person. I managed to get her through online dating before TRP. Only problem was that I wasn’t prepared to handle how things ended. Am I saying everyone should expect those kind of results regularly? Nah. But if you can find a place to consistently meet the age you want to fuck in person and apply… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Oh, and reading a woman’s profile online then taking it seriously? Dude you’re totally listening to what she says. Don’t do that.

Tom...
Tom...
6 years ago

@Ron
Move. The US is a skewed market. And do not do online dating. You’ll be filtered out by the software/user defined age limits before you even get a chance to approach. Daygame in Eastern Europe if you’re white, Asia if you’re not.

stuttie
6 years ago

@ Diplomat – totally agree with you; Can’t wait to catch up on this thread over the weekend. Also an unusually high number of new commentors in this thread which is great.

@ Ron – Firstly, there is no such thing as hooker Game; that’s an oxymoron. Also read…http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/11/the-mature-man/ and Amused Mastery post.
Younger chicks will fuck 35-55 guys with tight Game; LTR’s maybe not so much but it’s not at all impossible.

DarkUserName
DarkUserName
6 years ago

Hopefully Rollo covers in more detail why he disagrees with the balance of gatekeeping (Men are gatekeepers of commitment, women are gatekeepers of sex). Is Rollo referring to the current environment of the SMP or was this a general disagreement? The example provided in the post from what I read seemed to say that because most men are betas, this isn’t true any more. In a society where gender roles were somewhat defined, I could see that the expression of gatekeeping between the sexes being very true.

lh
lh
6 years ago

“Hopefully Rollo covers in more detail why he disagrees with the balance of gatekeeping (Men are gatekeepers of commitment, women are gatekeepers of sex).”

The “gatekeeper” is always the person who has the power, who needs it last. If a man wants commitment from a women, she is the gatekeeper. If the woman wants sex from the man, he is the gatekeeper.

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
6 years ago

The real question is do beta men have agency in the face of desireable pussy? Sadly I think not and women know it.

How can the one who loves ideally have more agency than the one who loves conditionally?

Even MGTOW is effectively an admission of a lack of agency, they have to effectively separate themselves from women to gain a semblance of personal agency. Otherwise they simply cannot help themselves being suckers under the spell of pussy.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@SignorFarfalla – Re: Social Order – Indeed, Tilikum seems to think it’s “Beta” to act collectively, which is just amusing and really only reveals how the entire alpha thing can be carried to ridiculous extremes which kind of reduces it to nonsense. Being a narcissistic dick is not required. In fact, true alphas are leaders of men and understand that order is necessary all too well. What, you gonna tell me say George Patton was a Beta, Tilikum? Isn’t it Alpha to leverage the work of others? What, do you think leadership can be established and maintained without some kind… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Rollo – I haven’t even given Insanity a second thought since you banned her – hooray! But given your comment about her I went over to look and wow, just wow. A few observations: 1. “Andy” – His commenting here is weird, but I saw he’s on Insanitybyte’s site fawning and prostrating himself to her. He’s an IB fan, ‘nuf said. 2. Solipsism – IB simply cannot see beyond her POV. She refuses to and judges all of the RP from her biased lens about the nature of men and women that has no scientific basis. She’s just making it… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Johnny Come Lately: “Otherwise they simply cannot help themselves being suckers under the spell of pussy.”

If you scrape away the incels wearing MGTOW as a disguise, I think you will find, in keeping with the subject of the article, that it is not the pussy they find a problem, but the White Knights.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

<em. 1. “Andy” – His commenting here is weird, but I saw he’s on Insanitybyte’s site fawning and prostrating himself to her. He’s an IB fan, ‘nuf said.

I have no idea what you just wrote there.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Oh, so you weren’t apologizing profusely on IBs blog about being critical of her a post or two back? Lol, must be a different ‘Andy’ – wait, that’s not possible in WordPress…

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

China has so many feminine women? What on earth are you going on about? The SMP is always relative, as all marketplaces are. Yeah, that’s my point. Its easy to lose the context in conversations like this. What I’m trying to say is that I think the best way to combat hypergamy (on a macro level at least) is to change the market. I personally don’t believe that warning your sister or daughter is going to change anything. She’s going to “Love” that beta at first. If we embrace open hypergamy then more beta’s are going to take the red… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

Oh, so you weren’t apologizing profusely on IBs blog about being critical of her a post or two back?

Yeah, I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Believe what you want.

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Wasn’t it the ugly unattractive women who were the first feminists “pioneers” who wanted to share the tingle / resources of the alphas ?
Wasn’t it the early betas who supported the ugly feminists against the alphas as well?

Both of them had a hidden/ conflicting agendas .
The beta’s agenda was to have access to HB10.
The ugly feminists agenda was to have access to the alpha men not the betas who supported them.
Ironic?

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

The beta’s agenda was to have access to HB10.
The ugly feminists agenda was to have access to the alpha men not the betas who supported them.

I think those beta’s are operating under the assumption of unrequited love or whatever. “If they could only see me for who I really am they’ll love me.” My theory is that open hypergamy will confront that belief. At least for men.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

You say a man’s smv peaks at 37. Yet when I go outside, I never see a young woman with a guy who’s more than 5 years older than herself. 20 year old girls on okcupid generally have an age range of 18-24. Sure, getting sex with same-aged peers probably does become easier over time. But what good does that do me if my same aged peers are 30-something whose sexuality disgusts me as much as mine used to disgust them? Seems to me that a man’s pussy getting days (if he even had any to begin with) are over… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“Wasn’t it the early betas who supported the ugly feminists against the alphas as well?” I think it was less the betas at the time than a certain strain of parasitic Alpha that saw the ability to accrue either money, or power from women’s liberation. I listen to a lot of BBC radio and one recurring theme is that the world, needs more women in the work force regardless of the economic realities of supply and demand in the labor markets. It’s a perverse form of supply side theory that seems to believe increasing the labor supply will magically increase… Read more »

Ang Aamer
6 years ago

I saw that this post was tagged with Estrus material. I just wonder if Estrus, SMV peak and women’s wild times are all related. One would say that the peak peak of a woman’s SMV is one year either side of 23. So that’s 3×12 or 36 peak days which a woman is biologically predisposed to seek males. Would it be reasonable for this 36 number to relate to the number of “big mistakes” in a girls past? Would it be reasonable to think that any activity that makes an impression during this time of a woman’s life impacts her… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

If we embrace open hypergamy then more beta’s are going to take the red pill. They’ll alpha up, withhold commitment and spin plates. The quality of remaining Beta’s diminishes changing the market. My theory is that this new market would force earlier epiphanies. I’m skeptical of this because the same type of pressures are currently being exerted in the market for different reasons. Namely the rise of “Peter Pan” “man-boys”, bromancers, Guyland and so on. These guys are not alphas, they are betas and they are already really diminishing in quality. Women are complaining about it, but they aren’t having… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

Holy Hell did that unleash the anger. I mean it’s like I gave her the biggest insult of all time. I don’t know why I touched a nerve on the age thing. No woman wants to be told her best years are behind. But I would have expected a 22 year old with plenty of time to not go crazy about it. Any ideas? Obvious — they don’t like the message. They’ve been told that they can have it all (even if it happens “sequentially” rather than at the same time), and so that is what they want. They do… Read more »

BigAl
BigAl
6 years ago

Will these comment sections ever be re-formatted to have threads with replies below them (like at the Chateau)?

It gets difficult trying to read through several different threads within one comment section…

Mr T
Mr T
6 years ago

Here is a statement that would make me lots of enemies.
I think the feminists/betas enabled revolution was about unattractive people revolting.
The alliance of the unattractive people is crumbling down on them.
What started 80 years ago was not a sincere alliance.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ Ron I have no game whatsoever and my 20s were a disappointing and confusing nightmare of confusion, humiliation, and beta serfdom. Things got significantly better in my early 30s without me even knowing what I was doing and without much change in my financial or professional situation. I was 31 or 32 when I met my ex in my pre red pill days. She was 20 and easily the hottest girl I’d ever been with. I blew it of course and fell all over myself to supplicate and pander to her. I made all the predictable and classic mistakes… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

I think that this is because the epiphany is independent of that, and based instead on the eyeball ratio, and when she begins to notice a significant shift in that metric (and they *all* notice when it begins to shift.

Good point. Maybe we can agree that forcing earlier epiphanies is a good goal, and that we should figure out how to accomplish that.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

Good point. Maybe we can agree that forcing earlier epiphanies is a good goal, and that we should figure out how to accomplish that.

As a goal, I agree completely. Hard to know how to do that, though, and worth some further thought.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Forcing earlier epiphanies:

A long war idea.

First force the epiphany on men that no woman over 29 is worth anything but a fuck or three. Make it a bumper sticker:

Never trust a woman over 30

Make the focus one of changing the tastes of young men to see all over 30 woman as junk bond investments, or like penny stocks, not as long term investments.

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@Rollo “I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes. Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter: 1 The woman is always the victim 2 Nothing is her fault 3 She is not responsible for her actions 4 A man is to blame To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.” -There is a point, where even the most BP amongst us can no longer deny the double standard? As a result of personal experience and introspection an awakening happens on an individual level first.… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

First force the epiphany on men that no woman over 29 is worth anything but a fuck or three. Make it a bumper sticker: Yeah, but that kind of goes along with my previous theory of changing the market. Novaseeker is right. When the plan B guys suck women just decide not to get married and you end up like Japan. So, we don’t want to be Japan. Hmmm. Maybe we just need to convince them that Family > Career. Which I think is true for 95% of women. Which means you do talk to your sister and daughter, ANNNND… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ NovaSeeker

“‘Good point. Maybe we can agree that forcing earlier epiphanies is a good goal, and that we should figure out how to accomplish that.’

As a goal, I agree completely. Hard to know how to do that, though, and worth some further thought.”

Heh, if you guys can actually figure this out and make it happen on a large scale, the misogynists and pickup artist cretins of the manosphere will have basically saved western civilization.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ Andy

I’m not suggesting we encourage men to go herbivore, just not commit to spent broads who by virtue of past performance are high risk for committed LTRs. By all means fucking, plating, friending post 30 women is fine and should be encouraged. Just don’t make them beneficiaries of man’s commitment.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

I’m not suggesting we encourage men to go herbivore, just not commit to spent broads who by virtue of past performance are high risk for committed LTRs

That also means actually committing to the sweet feminine virginal ones. We know that a woman’s fantasy is seducing the Alpha into commitment. So, some of it is on us men. Maybe the problem is that they just don’t have to tools to seduce the alpha because being feminine has become so taboo for a “modern woman.”

Convince them that family > career, and give them the tools to seduce the alpha.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Family>career lol.

Tell a single mother that her and her kid are not a family. Let me know how that goes for ya.

Most women I meet, regardless of age, are not even wanting commitment. The exception might be the 25-30 crowd. Monogamy? Usually at some point they all want that. (On his end anyway)

Families no longer require a husband.

Being a wife > career.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ Andy

It’s not about the Alpha’s they don’t have these problems and generally don’t give much of shit to begin with. It’s about making participation in the larger society worth the effort of the betas. You know the other 80%? If you don’t focus on the betas then the civilization either degrades, or some one comes along with a plan that secures a vision of respect and dignity for the common man that will likely, as a side effect, have a very high body count associated with it if history is any guide.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Men are the gatekeepers to progress. Women and beta men are the support structure for those men.

When that support structure is undermined, society declines.

Empowering women has undermined that system.

You don’t let the kids in the orphanage dictate how to run the place. You don’t ask a dog its opinion on how to run the kennel. You don’t let your own children decide what’s for supper.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

Being a wife > career.

We’re fucked. lol.

But seriously. You’re right. Convincing them that dad’s are necessary is part of it.

If you don’t focus on the betas then the civilization either degrades, or some one comes along with a plan that secures a vision of respect and dignity for the common man

Yeah, I believe forcing the red pill down society’s throat has to be done. I still think that using mainstream Open Hypergamy as a trap could be beneficial in some way.

Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

From Precentative Medicine – Redevelopment / Reinsurance “Women in this phase may be concerned for the futures of their daughters – and sons who may come into contact with women following the same hypergamic paradigm she used on their father(s) – but the concern is voiced for society and women as a whole. Rarely is this social concern an admission or testament of her own regret, but rather it’s something she must address to reconcile the parts of her past, the undeniable results of her hypergamy, that she can’t escape.” I agree with this assessment concerning only the strategic dynamics… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Too many men, too many modern comforts, too much excess. Not enough adversity. Too much competition for men, not enough for women.

Just like any other market bubble or abnormality, there will be a correction.

What will it look like is the question. Japan comes to mind, so does Greece.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

When the 1% are men, there is a general understanding that the 99% has to be treated just well enough to keep them “happy”and compliant.

Kings of the past that got beheaded by the masses revolting can vouch for the hazards of disobeying that law. Plenty of modern examples too.

I do not think that women or the average beta male is smart enough or shrewd enough to properly manage the masses. Chaos ensues.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

You can’t convince women that a husband is necessary, when in the short term THEY ARE NOT NECESSARY.

In a 100% pragmatic view, the way things are right now, a husband is NOT NEEDED.

Since there is public transportation where I live, I don’t need the Mercedes in my driveway either, know what I mean?

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@ScribblerG “The more I think about it, the more I believe we are becoming a matriarchy, folks. This is an ineluctable consequence of women not needing us for daily survival and them having the power of sexual selection. Most people don’t seem to know that western civilization only stopped having mass famines 150 years ago – the kind of prosperity and security open to a woman without a man as a provider/protector is simply unprecedented. Why would women not change their sexual behavior as a result? Why would they spend a life with one man? And of course, a matriarchy… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

What I wanted to add is that individually it is mot necessarily each man’s fault for the state of society, but collectively, it is.

Looking at this as a question of who’s fault it is is an error. What is going on is a conjunction of biology and various ideologies, including chivalry, feminism, and socialism. The ideological actors have been actively instigating change to benefit women.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

As a goal, I agree completely.

Oh puck! Here all along I thought you were a field official.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Andy – Your “theory” is that enough Betas can Alpha up as an adaptive response to open hypergamy and because of the larger supply of alphas more men will get laid. And because there will be fewer Betas, women will have earlier epiphanies? As RazorBladeKandy says, “What, what?” I’ll try to make my two points clearly. 1. Online studies of female preferences show they always cluster to the top 20% of men in interest, regardless off the distribution of quality. Tinder, OkCupid, even the SugarDaddy sites. What I think you are missing is how important relative standing is to women… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Cave Clown – “I do not think that women or the average beta male is smart enough or shrewd enough to properly manage the masses. Chaos ensues.” Certainly true. Like you allude to properly lead betas are a tremendous benefit to the Alpha leader. But the Alpha has to be a leader of men, not a mere slayer of poon. The break point for this society is the divergence of the two ways to define what is an Alpha male. I know several guys who are great leaders of men but terrible with women, and others who are demi-gods with… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

There will always be a top 20%, regardless of how well the other 80% are doing. Stop dreaming of equality.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Badpainter,

I would say that it’s the state that is in charge, not any individual person(s)

Who controls the state? I would argue it is women.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

If I’m paying big money in taxes for free birth control, why do I still have to bring condoms?

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Caveclown, Women are like the electors of the Holy Roman Empire. The get to validate nominees, and get to elect the office holders, but the don’t get to select the candidates. Those are selected by the powers that be. The powers behind the scenes, the campaign donors, media and party hacks. So yes women have great influence, but their power is limited to choosing from amongst the options presented to them. The state is in charge. However, that authority has limits and the people (men) will tolerate huge amounts of BS without rebelling, but there is a limit. Where the… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

“I still have to bring condoms?”

Because of any or all three:

1. Dick Rot

2. you know better than toplace blind trust in a woman to actually use birth control as prescribed.

3. Misandry

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@forge – Great stuff. It’s interesting how divorce breaks down by class. Upper class types were headed in the same direction as the rest of society in the ’70s wrt divorce but it reverted back to almost pre-1960s levels during the ’80s/90s. Since this a female phenomena I think we can safely assume it’s simply about status. If you’ve managed to snag a high social status male, you are unlikely to improve your lot because you are already at the top and women leave less. I also think if you analyzed it (don’t know how we would) you’d find that… Read more »

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

A bit OT, but some interesting entertainment messaging that touches on female agency and how men are portrayed as both facilitators and fixers within the female hero’s journey. A summer date-night movie: “Trainwreck” Apparently the feminist reviewer is panty-twisted because the film fails (in her eyes) to illustrate promiscuity (and lotsa other bad behavior that “men get away with”) as the liberating and empowering choices they really are. She’s also disappointed that the movie occasionally treads too closely to reality – a reality she denies of course. The protagonist is a sex zombie, a boozer, and all-around horrible person. “But… Read more »

SFC Ton
6 years ago

Plan on re-reading this (as always) but what I appreciate the most Rollo is the tone of how you deal with this. No moral outrage, no moral covering fire, just how it is, good and bad etc etc

For me, women are without moral agency and what I have read of the ancients, thats been the typical opinion of men world wide… or at least the parts of the world that advanced far enough to leave artifacts, writings etc behind

SFC Ton
6 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Bare with me Rollo as I am no word smith. Yes in sane times and in a sane society it is a man’s responsibility. I am old school of the old school variety and believe the proper place of women (and kids and what are women but the oldest teenager in the house?) is as property. Property of their father’s ( or nearest blood kin) or of their husbands(or his nearest blood kin if he should pass). I do not believe in liberty or equality etc for women( or others as experiments in these various progressive notions have utterly failed).… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

I think it would be a mistake to confuse this with monogamy though. Women’s infidelity is increasing across the board, it’s just that in the upper class they’ve got the brass ring already so why divorce? Whereas in working and middle class women don’t take too much of a social status hit after divorce and then have all that upside potential to marry a higher status guy. Yes. Among the uppers it’s status, and among the next-in-line (upper middle, or “working rich”), it’s about both status and money because many of these are dual high income where the whole is… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Rollo – I can’t believe you are inviting IB back in here. Big mistake.

[Crazy like a fox]

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

“Just thought our new commenters might like to take a stab at her.”
Wo! Careful boss, she could weaponize that as a “death threat” and take it to the Twittermobs, emulating that other mad fat one with the insider stooges who got cernovich and roissy banninated from the Twattosphere the other day. They all do it and are furiously jealous of each others imagined peril.
Ah what the hell. Screw Twitter, it can join reddit and the rest in sjw-ruled hell.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

Online studies of female preferences show they always cluster to the top 20% of men in interest, regardless off the distribution of quality.

How do you know that it will always be a zero sum game? Online dating is not necessarily a corollary for real life. I believe you may be able to increase that percentage “offline”. If PUA has taught us anything it’s that attraction is a formulaic.

Has it already been established that if everyone knows the formula, the formula changes?

Chump No More
Chump No More
6 years ago

Don’t confuse a differing/incompatible value system as a lack of moral agency.

longgone
longgone
6 years ago

Rollo, Thanks for one of the best of your posts I’ve read so far, and I’m about halfway through reading all of them in reverse. Since IB and MYG have been zotted the comment section has been much more focused, with any given topic or theme being developed logically by reasoned exchange over several comments and thus truly helpful to us lurkers. It’s just felt like a more comfortable place to hang recently. Since it’s obvious that IB and MYG came here only to disrupt the flow and antagonize I’m a little disappointed you’d let them return. Since we know… Read more »

70'sAntiHero
6 years ago

@ Rollo, SFC

Isn’t morality an individual choice measured against collective agreement?

Aren’t women blaming Alpha men behavior on one hand and rewarding it on the other. . . all the while, rejecting Beta behavior. . . the behavior they supposedly would approve?

A contradiction that doesn’t merit respect. . . . And gives them what they deserve.

To paraphrase what Norman Mailer said about feminism. . . . The get all the benefit and the burden of being a man.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Thanks Glenn. You could be right. And I did take your point that ‘getting this girl back’ isn’t likely or likely to be productive or a good use of time. I’m not trying for that here, i just said I’d keep my eyes open before rather than be totally closed to the dim chance. This isn’t really about me and her. I mean, I’m biased so it’s hard for me to say for sure, but i really am pissed about this from another perspective. I care a lot about what this business accomplishes. I’m passionate about what I can accomplish… Read more »

447
447
6 years ago

Quote RM: [“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.” This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.] I agree that moral absolutist men seem to agree… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Does that make sense or am I full of shit? Serious question, I know how easy it is to rationalize stuff to yourself. But I really would rather she be gone, outta here, than see this happen to this place.

But if ya’ll tell me I’m still fooling myself with oneitis I’ll give myself a solid wallop across the face and let this shit go, let the management deal with it as it may.

And I’ll read Tasim’s book after I’m done with the 48 laws.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Forge,

In the little I know about you, and what I read today?

Let the walloping begin!

Screams “oneitis” dude

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

3 cold approaches today, 15 total since monday morning.

2 numbers gotten, now doing the texting thing.

One lay yesterday with a cold approach from a few weeks ago. (She acted indifferent on our first meet, 3 weeks later she’s probably the best lay I’ve had yet, also crazy as fuck)

Not bad for a rookie. One lay in about 75 total approaches over a month. 3 others in the works.

Lots of mistakes, but lots of fun!

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“The central statement can be completly agreed to without using (at least conventional) morals, religious values etc. . . .”

. . . by drawing it as a vector force diagram.

Dan
Dan
6 years ago

well, they’re not mothers of children or wives of husbands,neither priestesses of the Earth, so what the fuck are they.?…..lost human animals..like you?…

Sam Botta (@sambotta)
6 years ago

The sad state of Beta: He hears women complain about the Alpha, and he tries to become the opposite of Alpha. He tries to become just like her. “the Beta needs to make the Alpha seem common, while making himself seem unique. In order to effectively disqualify an Alpha, the Beta has to display his empathy for the feminine, and she must appreciate it or it’s been all for nothing (which it usually is). Not only is this an ego preservation mechanism, but it’s also perceived as a tool for achieving the desired sexual reciprocation / appreciation he desires.” ~Rollo… Read more »

longgone
longgone
6 years ago

FTS,

Let management deal with it…..

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

Forge: She’s not your problem that you need to fix for the world. She’s a problem in your own head. Fix your head.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Forge

Gotta go with the others here. Just the frequency alone with which you’ve mentioned her suggests that getting completely clear of her would be beneficial. You need your head cleared, and as things are that doesn’t seem to be happening.

For the record, she doesn’t sound like the kind of prize worth devoting more than a couple dick tosses and cab fare to. Move on, bro. Move on.

BreakinnBenjaminn
BreakinnBenjaminn
6 years ago
Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

These days there’s one thing I try to constantly remind myself of:

“If it provides you no considerable benefit, it deserves none of your time.”

It’s a real easy way to start sorting who or what deserves your time and brainspace or doesn’t. Apply that metric to each interaction or choice throughout your day and filter accordingly.

The Tingler
6 years ago

Rollo, This is the first time you’ve said something I at least partially (if not wholly) disagreed with. To the extent that mothers raise their sons on the blue pill, you’re correct that women are responsible for encouraging the behavior you talk about. But the rest of the responsibilty falls to men ourselves. Each sex incentivizes the other’s behavior. Women incentivize certain male behaviors by sleeping with the men who exhibit them, and vice versa. Your comment about Muslims at the end reminded me of an exchange I had in another forum with a Muslim guy from the ME. He… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Women are sluttier because that is what men want, or because that is what their sisters tell them men want?

How many here bemoan the fact that women are slutty? How many are looking for that magic virginal unicorn?

I like sluts, but don’t most men want good girls?

BreakinnBenjaminn
BreakinnBenjaminn
6 years ago

I would suggest to anyone having problems such as Forge’s to listen to each of Rollo’s podcasts with Christian McQueen and the recent podcast with Tom Torero. Reading text about game and TRP is one thing, but on the path to fully internalizing the ideas and strategies, it is imperative to hear it verbalized. This also ties into why it’s imperative to find RP aware individuals in real life and see it in motion. And as usual this goes back to what YaReally is always saying: Live It. Reading Rollo’s articles is invaluable to use all, but sometimes it’s like… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

But the rest of the responsibilty falls to men ourselves. Yeah, it’s totally my fault that every time I’ve found a woman I wanted to be with long term and told her as much, she decided to be a slut instead. Clearly I encouraged it. Clearly my telling her “Let’s be together, just you and me” is advocating hopping on the next guy’s cock. Totally my fault. I’ve created a bunch of sluts by trying to encourage women to be monogamous with me. My bad. It’s all my responsibility. Me and the 80% of guys that act the same way.… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

Don’t confuse a differing/incompatible value system as a lack of moral agency. True. It’s similar in some ways to the distinction made between the way men love and the way women love. Same word, but two different things. I think the same can be said for moral agency as between men and women. I think to say that women have no moral agency goes way, way too far (it’s odd seeing religious Christians say this when Christianity, at least in its traditional forms, has never really taught that about women, at least not until feminism gets rolling in the 19th).… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Well @Sun, at least you admit it. Lol

Change your name to “The Creator of Sluts”

Sounds like a Norse God or some shit

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Alright, 3 for 3. I’ll give myself that shiner. Thank you all. I’ll call this down. She knows I know but I haven’t told anyone past that, so I’ll just tell her that I thought it over and though I think this is a bad decision professionally it’s none of my business to interfere. She can do what she wants. I suppose she may have told the manager which makes things awkward but that’s my own dumb fault, I’ll deal. I’ll avoid all contact except for the polite ‘good mornings’ in the hall. And I’m gonna go out 2 times… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@ The Tingler I think it used to be true that each sex incentivized behaviors for the other once upon a time because there was some balance between the sexes. Women provided reproductive resources, men provided material resources. Now there is no balance whatsoever. Women dictate. How could men dictate if their attention is so cheap that they are so easily replaced and if women have less need of men’s material resources? Women can do whatever they want because, as Ms. Massey explained, “dick is abundant.” And this state of affairs is nothing new. Selection pressure flows from women to… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

*5 for 5

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